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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily, and this is and you're listening

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Speaker 1: to Steph. Mom never told you today. We are psyched.

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Speaker 1: I always say that, but we are super psyched to

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Speaker 1: tackle a topic that I am freakishly into, and that

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Speaker 1: is negotiation a k a. Negotiating your salary in particular. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: there are lots of ways to negotiate and lots of

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Speaker 1: things to negotiate that we always are negotiating in life,

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Speaker 1: but today we want to talk through some of the

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Speaker 1: ways in which some of the mistakes actually that women

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Speaker 1: in particular can fall into when experiencing or engaging in

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Speaker 1: salary negotiation. And this is a topic that I've been

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Speaker 1: obsessed with for years now. Having been a political operative

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Speaker 1: like you be, I feel like one of the prerequisites

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Speaker 1: for being in the campaign world is being very comfortable

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Speaker 1: bouncing from one job to the next, definitely, because there's

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Speaker 1: just so much career mobility, which freaks some people out

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Speaker 1: but also becomes a skill set in and of itself

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Speaker 1: landing jobs, negotiating salaries, different contractual arrangements, etcetera. So I

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Speaker 1: became very quickly interested in the topic, and then in

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Speaker 1: launching bust up, really obsessed with how negotiation really does

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Speaker 1: differ for women and versus men, for those who present

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Speaker 1: as women versus men. The societal sort of assumptions that

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Speaker 1: are coming to the table on this topic are really

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Speaker 1: really different. And so when Britain and I were talking

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Speaker 1: about putting this together, we thought, oh, my gosh, negotiation

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Speaker 1: is too big of a topic. How are we going

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Speaker 1: to focus on one episode on everything there is out

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Speaker 1: there about negotiation? And we said, well, here are all

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Speaker 1: the mistakes I've ever made. Yeah, and for me, especially

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Speaker 1: the long list, and even that that narrowing alone is

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Speaker 1: still going to make this probably a long episode. But

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Speaker 1: we figure, why don't we tackle just some of the

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Speaker 1: major trouble spots, because you know, there's a ton of

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Speaker 1: negotiation information out there, But for today's episode, we want

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Speaker 1: to focus on the state of women in negotiation in

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Speaker 1: American particular, but in in and some of the mistakes

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Speaker 1: to avoid some of those red flags to watch out for.

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Speaker 1: But first, we want to acknowledge that the old adage

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Speaker 1: that women don't negotiate, women don't ask is no longer

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Speaker 1: that accurate. So you've probably heard over and over again

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Speaker 1: that men negotiate much more often than women and still

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Speaker 1: in many circumstances. That is true when it comes to

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Speaker 1: new job offers. You know, women or men who are

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Speaker 1: in the interview process and are given a job opportunity

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Speaker 1: or a job offer, men are still much more likely

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Speaker 1: to negotiate than women. In fact, um Hannah Riley Bowles

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Speaker 1: rights in the Harvard Business Review that research shows, uh what.

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Speaker 1: In one study recently that graduating MBA students, half of

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Speaker 1: the men had negotiated their job offer, as compared to

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Speaker 1: only one eighth of the women. So the new job

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Speaker 1: offers are still overwhelmingly negotiated by men and not so

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Speaker 1: negotiated by women. But when it comes to asking for

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Speaker 1: a raise or a promotion within the confines of an

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Speaker 1: existing organization, women are asking. I believed for a long

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Speaker 1: time that it's just that women aren't asking, but they are.

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Speaker 1: They are, And unfortunately, in that same breath that research

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Speaker 1: found that this is the headline from Fortune magazine by

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Speaker 1: Laura Cone. Women ask for raises as much as men do,

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Speaker 1: but get them less often. So. The University of Warwick,

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Speaker 1: the Cast Business School in London there found that women

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Speaker 1: were twenty five percent less likely than men to get

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Speaker 1: a hike and pay when they asked for it. That's

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Speaker 1: so depressing. It is. It's depressing to be because even

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Speaker 1: when so one, I think we are taught to victim

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Speaker 1: blame at a kind of way and say, oh, they're

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Speaker 1: not asking for it, that's why I'm not getting it,

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Speaker 1: which is clearly not true. But when we do ask,

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Speaker 1: we don't get it, and that's so frustrating to me. UM.

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Speaker 1: I it's funny that you mentioned before that being a

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Speaker 1: political operative kind of kind of is what got you

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Speaker 1: fired off about negotiation. That was such a challenge for me.

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Speaker 1: I've I've had a million different gigs in my life,

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Speaker 1: short term, long term, UM, in politics, and I dread

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Speaker 1: negotiation in such a serious and intense way. UM, for

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Speaker 1: the longest time. This is so embarrassing. I didn't even

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Speaker 1: know you were kind of even I'm embarrassing this. I

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Speaker 1: didn't even know you were supposed to do or allowed

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Speaker 1: to do that. UM. That's the first time that someone

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, did you ask for more money? I

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Speaker 1: thought what I didn't. It did not occur to me. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I had a really is that situation where I

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Speaker 1: was offered what would have been a dream job, and

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Speaker 1: when I got the offer letter, it was barely more

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Speaker 1: than I was making a job and so and so

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that you that that was a jumping

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Speaker 1: off points. So I just said, oh, I can't take it,

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Speaker 1: and then I said no, and I never I And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until years later that I thought, oh, wait,

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Speaker 1: that was a jumping off point. I asked more, I

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Speaker 1: would have been fine. So, yeah, this is an important topic.

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Speaker 1: This is such an important topic. And I hope this framework.

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Speaker 1: Um you know, sometimes people say, oh, you're so negative.

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Speaker 1: I hope you all know that sometimes it's okay to

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Speaker 1: be negative, Like we're going to talk about this in

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Speaker 1: a framework that says, here are some mistakes, don't make them,

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Speaker 1: you know, here are the mistakes we've made. You don't

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Speaker 1: have to. And I actually feel very positively about negotiation,

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Speaker 1: and I know for a fact that makes me a freak. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so do you know that if you want to geek

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Speaker 1: out about negotiation with me, y'all are welcome to any time.

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Speaker 1: But the population feels the same way you dodge, which uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: It's combative, it's a mine field. I'm like, bring it on.

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Speaker 1: I recently, um, Brad and I are closing on a

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Speaker 1: house and I don't. It's like still a work in progress.

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Speaker 1: But I was in charge of negotiations brads and charge

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Speaker 1: of renovation, and and I was We just met with

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Speaker 1: the agent who's brokering the deal, and he told us

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Speaker 1: it was the hottest open house in the entire metro

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Speaker 1: area the weekend that we got it. And when we

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Speaker 1: were asking him, like, why did you go with us

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Speaker 1: because there were other people we were in a bidding war,

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Speaker 1: where he said, the way you spoke on the phone

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Speaker 1: to me, Emily gave me really good vibes. And I

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Speaker 1: like to work with people who I feel that way with.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think you guys deserve this house

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Speaker 1: because of it. And I was in my first time

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Speaker 1: homebuyers trying to do a major flip, you know, and

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Speaker 1: then we were competing with major flipping like home flipping company,

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Speaker 1: and we got the bid. So the way you talk

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Speaker 1: to people, the way you handle a negotiation situation truly matters.

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Speaker 1: And while the data can be seen as depressing, get

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Speaker 1: put on your psychology hats, y'all, because if you can

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Speaker 1: hack into the psychological factors that go into negotiation, you

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Speaker 1: can set yourself up to capitalize on me and it's

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Speaker 1: not a it's not a fair world out there. Everybody's

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Speaker 1: experience is very different with this. But I just want

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Speaker 1: you to know that it is a skill you can

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Speaker 1: develop and get better at. It's not like a oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sucky at this, I'll never get better like it

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Speaker 1: is something you can get much better at. That's part

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Speaker 1: of one of the reasons why I appreciate that we

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Speaker 1: frame this episode in terms of what not to do. UM.

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Speaker 1: I am someone who, as I said, I hate negotiation.

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Speaker 1: It's so many things that are not so many things

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Speaker 1: I don't seek out UM, And it's good to feel

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Speaker 1: as though it's not just I'm doomed to be bad

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Speaker 1: at it forever, that you can get better. It's a

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Speaker 1: skill you can grease the wheels you can it's like

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Speaker 1: a muscle. You can flex it exact exercise. And and

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously we shouldn't have to, as women contort

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Speaker 1: ourselves to get treated fairly. We shouldn't have to, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, speak differently, smile differently, all the things were

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Speaker 1: about to share with you. We shouldn't have to adapt

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Speaker 1: to our biased world. And that goes without saying, but

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say it anyway. That women should not have

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Speaker 1: to do verbal jiu jitsu to be treated fairly and

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Speaker 1: equally like men are in this equation. But here's the reality, y'all.

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Speaker 1: We live in a biased world full of human beings

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Speaker 1: who bring their own bias to the table when when

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Speaker 1: exchanging ideas. So if you know the unconscious bias that

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Speaker 1: goes into this, I actually find it empowering because then

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Speaker 1: you can be strategic with the choices you are making.

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Speaker 1: We're not saying this is just like when we were

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Speaker 1: talking about policing women's speech. This is not to say

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Speaker 1: that here's the right way to talk or here's the

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Speaker 1: wrong way to talk. We're not here to say here's

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Speaker 1: the right way to negotiate, here's the wrong way to negotiate.

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Speaker 1: We're here to give you some tools to have in

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Speaker 1: your toolbox and to give it a shot and see

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Speaker 1: how it works for you. And options. It's always good

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Speaker 1: to have options, Yes, you know, so shall we dive in. Okay,

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Speaker 1: there's this first mistake that is literally the first time

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Speaker 1: that salary typically comes up for people in the job market,

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Speaker 1: and everyone freaks out about it. And I get this

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Speaker 1: question all the time at boss Stop, which is, how

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Speaker 1: do I deal with the blank spot on the form

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Speaker 1: that application you might be filling out through monster dot

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Speaker 1: com or whatever that asks about salary requirements or salary history.

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Speaker 1: How do I deal with that? Have you ever seen this?

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Speaker 1: I've seen it so many times. I always freak out,

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Speaker 1: you know, I never know what to put. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: that's the common question, is like, what the hell do

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Speaker 1: I put there? That doesn't put me in a weak position.

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Speaker 1: And here's the reality. If you were to walk into

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Speaker 1: Nordstrums and say, or let's let's actually do a store.

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Speaker 1: We actually walk in. If you were to walk into

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Speaker 1: Target and say, oh my god, I love those shoes,

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Speaker 1: bring them to the cash register and want to take

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Speaker 1: them home with you, you wouldn't expect them at the

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Speaker 1: cash register to say, well, how much would you pay

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Speaker 1: for these shoes? That would be ridiculous. When you're shopping

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Speaker 1: for a job, the same reality is true. It has

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Speaker 1: become normal for them to ask you, the job seeker,

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Speaker 1: what you think you should make when in reality, they're

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Speaker 1: hiring for I don't know, a marketing associate. How much

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Speaker 1: do they value the work of a marketing associate? It's

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Speaker 1: on them to name their price. It's that's so absurd

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Speaker 1: to me because it puts the onus on you to

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Speaker 1: tell them what you think your value is, and really

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Speaker 1: it should be about what you as if you're a

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Speaker 1: marketing associate, you want to know what number of your

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Speaker 1: company puts that. Yeah, that should be on them to

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Speaker 1: tell you. And in fact, many states agree with you

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Speaker 1: vehemently bridget and that they are outlining the use of

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Speaker 1: that question. They're outlining the common practice of employers asking

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Speaker 1: people what their salary history is or what their salary

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Speaker 1: requirements are. Because of that reason, and because by doing so,

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Speaker 1: what we're actually all doing is perpetuating historical wage inequality. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: so that we know that women still get paid less,

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Speaker 1: especially moms. As we discovered in the Mommy Tax episode,

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Speaker 1: moms get discriminated against tremendously for doing the same work.

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Speaker 1: So if we want equal pay for equal work, and

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Speaker 1: we're not willing to pass a law that actually mandates that,

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Speaker 1: which we should, we should and has not happened, then

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Speaker 1: at least what we can do is make it harder

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Speaker 1: for people to to perpetuate those unconscious biases and those

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Speaker 1: waging equalities that already persist and already exists right. I

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Speaker 1: used to have a little bit of anxiety around that.

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Speaker 1: The last job that I had, the last full time

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Speaker 1: job that I had, I was making more money that

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Speaker 1: I've ever made in my life. I was so happy

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Speaker 1: about it, and in my mind I thought I saw

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Speaker 1: that as like the keys to the kingdom of like

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Speaker 1: now that I made above a certain number, I can

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Speaker 1: never make I'll never never mess on that again. And

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Speaker 1: I totally had had a wrong understanding of of that.

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Speaker 1: So I was really excited to be like, well, I

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Speaker 1: make I made this at my last job because I

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Speaker 1: thought it that I would always be paid more than that,

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Speaker 1: and that's not how it works. Well to be fair, right,

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Speaker 1: that's not right. That's not a guarantee, I would say,

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Speaker 1: Although that's not saying that you're making less now, is it.

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Speaker 1: It is not. But I want to also acknowledge this

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Speaker 1: that Massachusetts was the first state to pass a law

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Speaker 1: making that illegal. So it makes it illegal for the

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Speaker 1: employer to demand how a salary history and answer from you,

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Speaker 1: or to even ask about it in the interview process.

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Speaker 1: New York recently passed a law in that regard as well,

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Speaker 1: and um it's being brought up in other states like

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Speaker 1: California on the state legislature level. But I'm really thrilled

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Speaker 1: to be and I'm really proud of our d C

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Speaker 1: Representative Eleanor Holmes Norton here in d C. She actually

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Speaker 1: introduced a law in Congress, the United States Congress, to

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Speaker 1: ban it across the country, to ban employers from asking this.

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Speaker 1: And I'm also proud as an original from Connecticut, as

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Speaker 1: a Nutmeg Nutmegs stater that um the one and only

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Speaker 1: Representative Rosa de Lauo and New York States Jared Nadler

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Speaker 1: are co sponsors on this LEGISLAURI. So it should be

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Speaker 1: outlawed because it's BS and it's saying that you're worth

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Speaker 1: is determined by what some former employer I thought it

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Speaker 1: was it should work, not the way it should. I've

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Speaker 1: been really fascinated to see this sort of push happening,

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Speaker 1: and maybe it's happening in other industries too, but in

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Speaker 1: the progressive politics sphere, this push for demand, like people

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Speaker 1: are asking for employers to put right on the job description,

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Speaker 1: the salary and they should. I see a lot of

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Speaker 1: pushback when, um, they don't always say that. At a

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Speaker 1: certain point, I get that you want to keep it

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Speaker 1: kind of open. But you almost don't want to waste

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Speaker 1: someone's time if if the if the range that you're

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Speaker 1: offering is now that they need exactly, And that's that's

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Speaker 1: why the first mistake for negotiating is to name your salaries.

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Speaker 1: To list the number first. You want to set it

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Speaker 1: up knowing that the employer has interest in your naming

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Speaker 1: your salary first. You want to make sure that they

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Speaker 1: are the ones to name the number first. And like

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Speaker 1: you were just saying that you're not wasting each other's time,

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Speaker 1: So here's how to do it. This is a sort

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Speaker 1: of like a stop, drop and roll um component of negotiation.

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Speaker 1: So here's how to decline answering that question before a

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Speaker 1: solid offer has been made. So say you're interviewing, you

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Speaker 1: love the job, you're you desperately want them to make

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Speaker 1: an offer to you, and they ask you in the

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Speaker 1: interview sub bridget what are your salary requirements? And you're like,

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Speaker 1: I know, naming a number right now is the worst

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Speaker 1: possible thing I can do. But how do I get

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Speaker 1: out of this without being a jerk? Well, here's here's

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Speaker 1: how to do it. And this is from this is

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Speaker 1: advice from one of my board members. A Lynn Powell,

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Speaker 1: who is the She works in Higher ed in the

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Speaker 1: Career Center. She used to be at Georgetown. Now she's

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Speaker 1: at U m D. And she's amazing. She said. She

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Speaker 1: told me one to break it down to the three

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Speaker 1: step strategy. One flatly and pleasantly as possible, deny answering

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Speaker 1: the question. So you might say, you know what, it's

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Speaker 1: too too early, bridget to talk numbers right now. It's

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Speaker 1: a good way to get out of it. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can just say, you know, I'm not ready to

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Speaker 1: talk about numbers just yet, or I'm not comfortable, you know,

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Speaker 1: talking numbers right now. And then step two is a

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Speaker 1: swage that under lying anxiety of are you just wasting

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Speaker 1: my time here? So you might say something like, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure if everything else falls into place, salary won't be

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Speaker 1: an issue. Oh that's a great that's such a like

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Speaker 1: diplomatic way to get out of which is what I

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Speaker 1: love about this. It's really linguistics and psychology coming together.

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Speaker 1: So you you so just to review step one, it's

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Speaker 1: too early to talk numbers. But step two, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: everything else will work out, and I'm sure we can

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Speaker 1: find an amenable agreement for both of us. If this

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Speaker 1: does move forward, and then step three is get off

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Speaker 1: the topic, roll out of this thing by asking an

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Speaker 1: open ended question. So it might be you know, Bridge,

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Speaker 1: it's too early to talk numbers. I'm sure if everything

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Speaker 1: else falls into place, salary won't be an issue. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell me more about what you're looking for in

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Speaker 1: this position or can you tell me more about what

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Speaker 1: success would look like in the first six months? Can

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Speaker 1: you tell me more about how promotion and advancement works

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Speaker 1: in your company? Now? So make an open ended question

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Speaker 1: that will get them talking again but moves you off

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Speaker 1: of the topic. I like that so much. That's a

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Speaker 1: great way to handle it. And it doesn't have to

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Speaker 1: be I would say this as an anxious person. Doesn't

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Speaker 1: has to be a heavy anxious thing where you're like,

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Speaker 1: oh god, oh god, oh god. It is, but you

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Speaker 1: can use these tools to sort of navigate it so

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Speaker 1: it's not doesn't feel so heavy and anxiety provoke it.

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Speaker 1: And you know what it comes down to, its preparation.

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Speaker 1: If you want to feel less anxious doing that, say

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Speaker 1: those three sentences over and over again before your interview,

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Speaker 1: and you will have it bound pad you'll practice it.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like memorizing some lines and you just

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Speaker 1: need those two lines, really and then you can come

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Speaker 1: up with whatever question makes sense. But practice, stop, drop

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Speaker 1: and roll. You've got to get off the topic. You know,

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Speaker 1: flatly refused as pleasantly as possible. Make sure they feel

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Speaker 1: like you're not wasting their time. Reassure them a little

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Speaker 1: bit that you're there because you're really taking this seriously,

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Speaker 1: and then get off the topic of the time. Unless

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Speaker 1: there are a total socio fath on the other end

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Speaker 1: of the conversation, they're not going to drag you back

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Speaker 1: to the topic over and over and over again. But

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Speaker 1: if they do, rinse and repeat, just use that strategy

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Speaker 1: to do everything in your power to refuse to answer

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Speaker 1: the question. And you know who does that brilliantly talking

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Speaker 1: heads on cable TV news. Oh yes, that's something we

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Speaker 1: as someone who took training to become the head and

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Speaker 1: a pundant, they're all about it. If you have if

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Speaker 1: you get stuck out a question you don't want to answer,

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Speaker 1: I can't answer it. Just gotta pivot ask or answer

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Speaker 1: a completely different questions. They might not know the difference exactly,

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Speaker 1: so pivot away. Do not let them force you to

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Speaker 1: answer it. And the same is true for the form.

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Speaker 1: If you have a form to fill out and you

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Speaker 1: cannot submit your application until you fill out that blanking

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Speaker 1: cursor box about salary requirements, put zeros in there, put

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Speaker 1: negotiable in there, put tv D, put you know, open

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Speaker 1: to conversation. Do not answer that question because the onus

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Speaker 1: falls on them to tell you what they're willing to

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Speaker 1: pay for the position. And you don't want to cut

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Speaker 1: yourself short. You don't want to low ball yourself, so

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Speaker 1: you know, you obviously also don't want to just be

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Speaker 1: getting jobs that way. So if you're only applying for

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Speaker 1: jobs through Monster dot Com, we've had a bigger problem

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Speaker 1: to solve there. So so just remember you do not

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Speaker 1: actually have to answer that question. Many states and maybe

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Speaker 1: our country will deem that illegal soon anyway, So to

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Speaker 1: that little time period of thirty seconds of awkward is

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Speaker 1: going to be worth ten tho dollars more year totally. U.

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to see that legislation is catching up with

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Speaker 1: this issue and we're getting somewhere on it, because I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this this, I just have made so many negotiation mistakes

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Speaker 1: and I'm thrilled to see other people not making make

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Speaker 1: those same mistakes. UM. I still remember the first time

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Speaker 1: I ever negotiated for a job, and the only reason

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Speaker 1: I did is because a friend of mine, we had

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Speaker 1: very we had very comparable education and skill level backgrounds,

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Speaker 1: we had been on the same campaign. We were both

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Speaker 1: hired at the same place, and he was offered ten

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Speaker 1: tho dollars more than me, and I thought I am

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Speaker 1: just as qualified as him. There's no reason I should

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Speaker 1: be making that much us And if if he had

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Speaker 1: not told me that information, I would have never asked

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Speaker 1: for more. And it was because I didn't know how

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Speaker 1: much how much they valued the position that is being

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Speaker 1: hired for. I didn't have any sense of that, um,

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Speaker 1: and so that's the only reason I did and I

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Speaker 1: got it. That's awesome, snaps to you, and that's an

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Speaker 1: argument for pay transparency to you and talking about your salary.

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Speaker 1: So let's take a quick break. When we come back,

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Speaker 1: we'll continue to talk through some of the common mistakes

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Speaker 1: that we can all avoid to get paid. To get

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Speaker 1: that money. Get your paper. We'll be right back after

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Speaker 1: a good break, and we're back. And another way that

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Speaker 1: I have tripped up in negotiation, and you were sharing

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Speaker 1: that you you had an experience like this as well.

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Speaker 1: Right is sending in my counter offer via email, And

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Speaker 1: that happened to me once because oftentimes when you get

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Speaker 1: an offer and the process of negotiation, as a reminder,

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Speaker 1: only begins once an offer has been made, so let's

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Speaker 1: keep that in mind. But those offers typically come in

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Speaker 1: over the phone, don't they, or maybe emails. More often.

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Speaker 1: I've heard that people get a phone call we'd love

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Speaker 1: to offer you the job, and you're like, great, Does

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Speaker 1: that mean you've accepted it right away? You know, you

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Speaker 1: want to be able to deliver that counter offer after

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Speaker 1: you've had a little bit of time to prepare um,

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Speaker 1: so you might want to say thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for this offer, express gratitude. I'm so excited about this,

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Speaker 1: as you can imagine, this is a big, big decision

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Speaker 1: that I want to take really seriously. So I'd love

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Speaker 1: until Friday to get back to you. Can we set

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Speaker 1: up a time to talk Friday afternoon? So then you

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Speaker 1: bought yourself some time. But in the past I've used

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Speaker 1: that time to write the world's most complex and very

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Speaker 1: many bullet pointed emails as my counter offer, to which

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Speaker 1: people are like, oh m, Gene, no, there are so

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Speaker 1: much like this, just like such a long run realists

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Speaker 1: in there. It just does not over. People don't like

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Speaker 1: getting laundry lists, like like a list of demands. Um,

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Speaker 1: I have done the same. I don't think I realized

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Speaker 1: it was something you shouldn't do until this very moment. Um.

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Speaker 1: I hate negotiations so much. If I can do it

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Speaker 1: over email, that somehow feels less awkward to me. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's so common though, it's completely a crutch, Like I

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Speaker 1: would much rather list what I feel like I need

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Speaker 1: in an email. Somehow that's easier for me than saying

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Speaker 1: it face to face over the phone. Well, it's more,

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Speaker 1: it feels more controlled. It feels like you have more

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Speaker 1: controlled But here's the fallacy behind that, y'all. When you

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Speaker 1: do not have body language, or at least when you're

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Speaker 1: using a phone call vocal tone on your side, you

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Speaker 1: can't actually adjust your tone, or you don't know if

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Speaker 1: the person on the other end of the phone is

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Speaker 1: having their worst possible day. You just you have less information,

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Speaker 1: and when you receive a very brief assertive email, you think,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, that person is a total nut job.

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Speaker 1: Or I can't even say the B word. I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: of Yeah, I mean, if you think about how it

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Speaker 1: plays on social media, so easy to misread things. You

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Speaker 1: think someone's being sarcastic, you think someone's mean or pushy

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Speaker 1: in an email. It's I'm sure I have come off

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Speaker 1: as different than I actually mean things an email because

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Speaker 1: I'm doing an email and it's it's a medium that

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Speaker 1: doesn't allow for expressions of vocal tone whatever. Um, So

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Speaker 1: it really isn't the medium to be negotiating. It is

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Speaker 1: a mindfield. You'll have too many exclamation marks, not enough

429
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 1: exclamation marks, You'll be seen as kurt or it's just

430
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 1: it's a real challenging way to be seen in a

431
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 1: negative light as assertive, and this is an assertive communication.

432
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,640
Speaker 1: Asking for more is a very assertive thing to do.

433
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 1: And we all know that women who are seen as

434
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 1: more assertive are seen as less likable. So you have

435
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 1: to sort of counteract the assertiveness with pleasant tone and

436
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 1: body language. That's where that smile advice comes from, which

437
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: we'll talk through. So you know, knowing all that we're

438
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: going to talk more about, you know how to be

439
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: pleasant even though you're being assertive. But knowing that email

440
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: is such a h easily misconstrued medium. Just keep in

441
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: mind that your bullet pointed list is definitely an important

442
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: thing to have. You want to have a list of priorities,

443
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: but you want to daisy chain them. You want to

444
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: ask for one thing at a time. And that's why

445
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: a live conversation is so much easier to be a

446
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: two way dialogue, so you can respond to the yes

447
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 1: or to know that you're getting and not necessarily have.

448
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: You know, nobody wants to be on the receiving end

449
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 1: of a long list of demands. It makes you look

450
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: really high maintenance. And there was this story that went

451
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 1: viral in The New Yorker because it came out in

452
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: relative close proximity to Lean In, and everyone was sort

453
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 1: of reacting. The anti lean In sort of wave had

454
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: hit in full force. And the title of the articles

455
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 1: lean Out the Dangers for Women who negotiate, and it

456
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 1: was so hyperbolic. I really hated the point of this piece,

457
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: which was a very qualified and talented woman was offered

458
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 1: a higher job or a job in high education. She

459
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: counter offered via email, made a list of demands, and

460
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: the offer was revoked. That's just the biggest nightmare of

461
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,479
Speaker 1: fear of everyone negotiating right to me, the conclusion that

462
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: they drew was an incorrect one. The conclusion was women

463
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: who negotiate, don't you know, don't get treated fairly, which

464
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: is true. But the conclusion that I think is more

465
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: productive is women who negotiate the email are much more

466
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: likely to be seen as pushy and not right for

467
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: the job anymore. So that's what happened to me. I

468
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: sent out a counter offer via email, and I got

469
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: the job offer revoked. And two things I learned from that. One,

470
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: this is not an employer I actually want to work

471
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: for it. It actually wasn't. Bridget knows because she ended

472
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,959
Speaker 1: up working for them. And too, you know, don't do

473
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: yourself a disservice of trying to counter offer via email.

474
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: It might feel safer to you, but you're way better

475
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,239
Speaker 1: off practicing with a partner in real time, asking for

476
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: that phone call a couple of days later, going on

477
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: with your bullet point list. But that's a list that

478
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: you work from in real time through a conversation. Because

479
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: out of curiosity, um, because I've asked my father, who

480
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: is my big negotiation coach, because he's very good at negotiation,

481
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: he's all he always says no one's ever going to

482
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 1: take away a job off or that rarely ever happens,

483
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: and it does, see it, What was the it's illegal

484
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: in some ways, what was the conversation around it when

485
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: it happened with you or they just did they just

486
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: say no, well, here's what it doesn't work. They were

487
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: being sketchy. They were hiring for a contract position, which

488
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 1: all my HR law folks listening can correct me here

489
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: if I get this completely wrong, because not completely wrong,

490
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: I know it's pretty right, but I'm not a lawyer.

491
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 1: When you're hiring for a contractor a non W two employee,

492
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: you are not allowed to tell them when to work

493
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 1: or how to work. You're allowed it's like a consulting

494
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: higher so you're allowed to say this is what we

495
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: need you to deliver on. But you're not allowed to

496
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: say you need to come into the office Monday through

497
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: Friday five. You know, it's very much illegal to treat

498
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 1: your contractors like full time employee. So, first of all,

499
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: if you're in that situation, so many women are, so

500
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: many people are yeah, oh my gosh. Yeah, it's something

501
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: that employers are violating all the time. So especially with

502
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 1: um our episode on the gig economy. Gig economy workers

503
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: are contractors, so you are allowed to dictate your own schedule.

504
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: That's the that's supposedly the benefit. If you're not, then

505
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 1: you've got a problem. So when they were hiring for

506
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: this position, they were hiring for a full time position,

507
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: and I assume that meant W two through the interview,

508
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 1: it became clear that we were talking about a contract

509
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: or position. When they called to make the offer, that's

510
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: what they were offering me. And I needed to gain

511
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: clarity and how much time they were going to compensate

512
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: me for, because it was not clear to me that, um,

513
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 1: they weren't going to treat me like a full time

514
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: staff member. They actually said, we need you to be

515
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: on call all the time. Sometimes things are fast, And

516
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: the way it was phrased was we're looking for people

517
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: who really care about these issues and really are devoted

518
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: to UH to making progress happen. And I was like,

519
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: that boils my blood. This is like the non private

520
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: industrial complex that exists in DC especially, So I bounced

521
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 1: back with my long ass bullet pointed email saying, you know,

522
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: what's the hourly rate that we're talking out here? How

523
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: many hours a week are you asking of me? Can

524
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: I work for someone else at the same time, because

525
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 1: it sounds like, you know, but you're hiring me as

526
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: a contractor. And it was clear to me that I

527
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: was very displeased with their offer, and clearly that came through,

528
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: and I was trying to be nice. So when I'm

529
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: trying to be nice to be email but doing something

530
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: very assertive, I'm talking like paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs,

531
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: they called me up and we're like, we've decided to

532
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: go in a different direction. So they took it from

533
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: email to calling you well, because correct me if I'm wrong.

534
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: HR Attorneys. But if people make a job offer and

535
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: then rescinded, they opened themselves up. Employers open themselves up

536
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: to liability. The liability meaning you might say you rescinded

537
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: this job offer because I am a woman, were differently

538
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 1: enabled or black or whatever. So they have to come

539
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: up with a sort of documented reason for the refusal.

540
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: So it's much easier if there's no paper trail. What's

541
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: funny is that I actually ended up working for I

542
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: basically took because I'm a terrible negotiator. I basically took

543
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: that exactly identical job and it was hell with hell

544
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: on Earth. I'm really glad I dodged that bullet. Definitely

545
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: me babysitting at the time, and I thought I was

546
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 1: never ever going to be employed ever again in a

547
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: in a stable way. And guess what I was, So

548
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: it was okay. The other thing to note on that

549
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: is when you were given a job offer, it's really

550
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: helpful to get that offer in writing. So one of

551
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: the other ways when you get that phone call you

552
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: asked to buy yourself some time, you try to create

553
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: a time for a live negotiation conversation asked when can

554
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: I see these details of the offer in written form?

555
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: Or when can I see the full offer package? Can

556
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: you tell me more about the benefits that are included

557
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: in this and can you provide this in writings? I

558
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: have time to look it over. It's a lot harder

559
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: for them to rescind an offer that's been delivered in writing.

560
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: So basically what we're saying is string them along until

561
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: you can get a paper trail essentially so that you

562
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: have some documentation. And that goes so into some of

563
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: the other topics that you've done around employment issues, like

564
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: coming out at work. It's a lot easier to have

565
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: an offer on hand before you reveal something about yourself

566
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: that might you know, make them if they're horrible, make

567
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: them change their mind, or just document it. Didn't coomy,

568
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: document the discussions and just writing yourself on them. Oh

569
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: can go a very long way, y'all. Remember that? Yes, um?

570
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: And then you know the same thing that you were

571
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: just talking about motherhood, you know, like being a little

572
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: bit choosing and intentional about when you reveal these things,

573
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: and that that's so sad for me. That's life is

574
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: not fair, and it's sad that we have to hold

575
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: our cards to our chest. But this is just a

576
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: way to here's how to do it. Yeah, I you

577
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: need to do it. You need to do it. I

578
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: like specializing in the tap dance, Like, here's how to

579
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: dance that tap dance because it's worth it, because the

580
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: world is not a cool place all the time, So

581
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: dance away because you are worth the effort of you know,

582
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: I don't want to say manipulating people, but manipulating people.

583
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: You know, you have to to watch out for yourself sometimes.

584
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: So when you're having that live conversation, how should women

585
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: go about navigating the mind field? That is like vocal

586
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: tone and body language and all that jazz. It can

587
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: be tough. Um. One tip is nervous. Don't be nervous

588
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: with your negotiation. I'm a again, I've said this a

589
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: hundred times. Hate negotiation would definitely be projecting nervousness, but

590
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: nervousness when you negotiate nervous it reads us anger. So

591
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: people don't aren't reading it as trepidation or you're anxious

592
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: in a situation that is a little awkward, people reading

593
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: us anger. And surprisingly no one really anger works for

594
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: men in negotiation. It does not work for women. And

595
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: so if you you know, if you come off as

596
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: seeming angry while you're negotiating in person or over the phone,

597
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: that is not going to work for you, even though

598
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: it works for men. Yeah, it's a really weird wrinkle

599
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: in the research around this. But what researchers found is

600
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,719
Speaker 1: that compared to expressions of anger by men, which are

601
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: seen as passionate and he's just really worked up about this,

602
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: he really cares a lot. I can almost envision every

603
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: male politician ever pounding their fist on a podium somewhere

604
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: saying this is wrong, right. But they found that compared

605
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: to expressions of anger by men. Expressions of anger by

606
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: women are associated with less positive organizational outcomes, meaning they

607
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: won't see you as impassioned. They won't see your nervousness

608
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: as cute. They will see you as crazy or a

609
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: bee you know what I mean. I'll see you as

610
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: or I think they will see you as a potential

611
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: problem canon. Yeah, I imagine that with your situation in

612
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: that mystery organization that we were talking about before. Um,

613
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: they probably that probably read to them as this, this

614
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: is gonna be a nightmare employee. She's high maintenance, she

615
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: won't play ball. We're clearly looking for something someone that

616
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: is a team players, right, and so that probably worked

617
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: against you in that way, but for the best because

618
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: they sucked. Well, it's funny. Yes, I don't want to

619
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: trash anybody out there, but we didn't tell them. I've

620
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: got our DC friends are like trying to guess which

621
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: organization I'm happy to tell people. I just don't do

622
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: it on the air. Okay, cool, Um, let's see what

623
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: was I gonna say? Oh? Anger, So a lot of

624
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: the women I work with, even like my one on

625
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: one peep, So I'm preparing for negotiation when they get nervous.

626
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: Their faces dropped, and so they go like this deer

627
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: in the headlights look looks really stone faced. Sometimes like

628
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: the frown comes out, but it's not a frown because

629
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: they're angry. They're just scared, and it's a nerve wrecking conversation.

630
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: It's tense. So the research clearly points to a benefit

631
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: for women who are persistently pleasant. And it's complicated because

632
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: if you're smiling while receiving or delivering bad news, nobody

633
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: likes that. Well, I've got some constructive criticism for you know,

634
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: like nobody. But it's about being oriented towards problem solving

635
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: and community benefit. So women should go in instead of

636
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: being angry looking she'd going focused on I'm really I'm

637
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: down to like figure this out together. I'm not. I'm

638
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: not saying you should say like in the middle of

639
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: that phrase, y'all, but you get what I'm trying to

640
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: say here. You should go in ready to problem solve

641
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: and come to the table with your counter offer, but

642
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: be open to collaboration and coming to an agreement together.

643
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: I love that advice. I once saw a wonderful um

644
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: I wish I could remember her name, but a wonderful

645
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,479
Speaker 1: speaker UM at Google, and she basically said that one

646
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: of the ways that she used, and she's a woman

647
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: of color, um, one of the ways that she used

648
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: being a woman of colors sort as a as a

649
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: negotiations benefit was by playing on traits that people associate

650
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: with a bit of color and kind of flipping them around.

651
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: So she says, if I'm coming off as assertive, it's

652
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: because I'm really excited to work on this with you.

653
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: If I'm coming off as um pushy, it's because I'm

654
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: so excited to problem solve this and I got through

655
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: this together and really like using the all of the

656
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: baggage that comes with being women who are negotiating and

657
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: talking and blah blah blah, using them to help her own.

658
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: Exactly what she's doing there is she's leading with her intent.

659
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: She's a huge part of the research on a sort

660
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: of communication in general for women, which is, if you're

661
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: about to pound the table, make sure you explain why first.

662
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: And the other thing is, you know, black women have

663
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: a twice as hard of a climb here because being

664
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: seen as the angry black woman is really it plays

665
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: on a media trope, right, It plays on this preconceived notion.

666
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: So just watch and practice with yourself in the mirror,

667
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: watch your facial expressions, and know what nervous looks like

668
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: for you. If you look angry, that is not going

669
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: to help your cause. Nervous can look like anger, it

670
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: can look like upset, it can look like, you know,

671
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: maybe you have resting, beeface all those things, or maybe

672
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,959
Speaker 1: they're actually lowballing you, right, and they're angry, and that's there.

673
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I yeah, not to say that you should

674
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: never be angry in these conversations, because if you are angry,

675
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: if you're being you know, if you're being lowballed or

676
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: not being you know, being offered something that's offensive, it's

677
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: a way to be angry. Righteous indignation makes sense here, y'all.

678
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: Clearly we are angry on this podcast a lot, and

679
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: I make no apologies for that. However, when I'm trying

680
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: to get you to give me a money, I'm going

681
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 1: to be pleasant and that means leading with gratitude, showing

682
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 1: appreciation at the top of every one of those conversations,

683
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: and then ending with I'm so excited to join this

684
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: great team. I think we're going to do a lot together,

685
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: you know, using we instead of I. So there's lots

686
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 1: of verbal, verbal and vernacular tips and tricks we could

687
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: throw in, but this would be a never ending podcast.

688
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 1: I think to avoiding the anger trap is a good

689
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: takeaway here. Should we take a break before we die quick? Okay,

690
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: we'll be right back after award from our great sponsors

691
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: who we love, who give us their money. Thank you,

692
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: and we're back and we are excited to talk through

693
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: some of these negotiation crosshairs, trip wires, mistakes, whatever, the

694
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: mind field, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Um. So,

695
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: one thing to note is that when it comes to

696
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,720
Speaker 1: your salary, it's easy to think that just the money

697
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: that you're getting paid is all you have to negotiate,

698
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: but really everything is negotiable. According to the Bureau of

699
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: Labor Statistics, only about sevent of an employee's total compensation

700
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 1: is actually their salary. So think about all the different

701
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 1: things that that leaves on the table to to negotiate about.

702
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: Vacation for when K matching, reimbursements for travel and professional

703
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: development and conferences, UM wellness programs, commuter parts, all of that.

704
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: All those things are up up on the table to

705
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: be dealt with and negotiated around UM. And I remember

706
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: once I was supposed to be UM giving a lecture

707
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: at a university and they couldn't pay me. And I

708
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: was talking to a friend and I was like, oh,

709
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: it sucks. I really want to do this, but I

710
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: want to get paid. And she said, you know there

711
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: are other ways they can compensate you other than giving

712
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: you money. And she said, maybe there's someone who you

713
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: would like to be able to offer an invite to

714
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 1: this conference to go to for free. Can they offer

715
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: you a couple of comp tickets to give to people

716
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: that would benefit And I thought, oh, yeah, there are

717
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: so many other ways to get compensated for things that

718
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: aren't just money. UM. So keeping that in mind is

719
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: really important, and knowing your own priority list, so when

720
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: you prepare for that counter offer, you know you've got

721
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: the bullet pointed list. Keep in mind what your first

722
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: priority is. And I always say, like, if the money

723
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: is not as good as it can be, like find

724
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: out you know, so counter offer with whatever your number

725
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: one priority is. But if you get an offer that

726
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: is so incredibly high paid that you're you can't fathom

727
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: asking for more on that front, or let's say you're

728
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 1: in a government job where the g S scale is

729
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: dictating your salary um, there are lots of other considerations

730
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 1: that you can push back on, and so a flexibility

731
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: is important to you. Be very crystal clear about what

732
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: you're asking for. Don't lead with what you're complaining about

733
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: or worried about. Lead with what you want because it

734
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 1: has has that positive like starting with a positive, and

735
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: nobody can actually tell you what you want except you.

736
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: So don't make the employer do the guesswork. Don't say

737
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: I'm really worried about the possibility of eight hour weeks here,

738
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 1: say I'd like to be compensated for overtime for anything

739
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 1: about fifty hours a week, you know, just or say

740
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: I'd like my hours to be capped so that on

741
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: Thursdays I can work from home or my commuter you know,

742
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: rail passes are paid for, or that I get a

743
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: free gym membership, whatever it might be. Yeah, and I

744
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: should we should say that this is really only for

745
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: full time W two employees and stuff doesn't fly when

746
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 1: you're contractor right, well, that's where the benefits packages nil

747
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: or no, you know, not applicable. However, I would say,

748
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: being a professional speaker, getting a speaker fee as a

749
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: contractor employee. So that's that's I mean, your example was

750
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: perfect by saying there are still ways to be compensated

751
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: additionally beyond salary, even if you are a contracted employee,

752
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 1: a big economy worker. Sweet. Well, here's one other mistake

753
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: I see a lot of women making. And this one's

754
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 1: a controversial one. Like most things, I hold strong opinions

755
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: on it. But but here, tell me what y'all think.

756
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: I think another mistake is to say, and if someone

757
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: raises their hand every time I give a workshop on

758
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: negotiation and says this, listen, negotiation is not applicable in

759
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 1: my field, and they go on to say I work

760
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: in the sciences where all of my research funding is

761
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: grant based, or I work in education and all of

762
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: our salaries are fixed and saying I can't negotiate, this

763
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: doesn't apply to me, and sort of throwing up your

764
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 1: hands and saying it's not fair. And I find that

765
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: to be self defeating for obvious reasons. I think, because

766
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 1: you're not going to negotiate if you think you can't negotiate.

767
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: But I also want to push back and say, do

768
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: not expect your employer to roll out the red carpet

769
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: for you when it comes to negotiation. I know that

770
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: sounds harsh, but you, as the individual applying for the job,

771
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: have to often more often than not, initiate the negotiation conversation, right, Um,

772
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: I'm definitely I'm one of those people that would raise

773
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: my hand in that in that scenario and ask that. Um.

774
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: I think I've mentioned on the show before that I

775
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: got my start professionally as a teacher, and when you're

776
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: a teacher, your salary is like there is no room.

777
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, I don't know how I

778
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: would have negotiated this because there wasn't mean to negotiate.

779
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: Your salary was totally based on your educational history. So

780
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: you get a piece of paper that says, if you

781
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: have a B A, your salary is this. If you

782
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: have an M A, your salary is this, and that

783
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: like there's not an Okay, Well, let me give you

784
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: a counter example, if I may do it. Um. So,

785
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: my friend Amanda was working in I think it was

786
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: like an NGO organization that uh were worked off of

787
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 1: the g S pay scale, which I think stands for

788
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: government scale or government salary something like that, whereby they

789
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 1: normalize exactly who gets paid for what, similarly to your example.

790
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: But what she realized in looking much closer at the

791
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: g S scale because oftentimes people aren't really reading that

792
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: fine print and then you get busy doing your job

793
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: instead of doing the job of getting the job or

794
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 1: making sure that they're paying you properly for the job.

795
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: All that meta work, uh, And what she found when

796
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: she looked into it is that she was actually doing

797
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 1: the work of someone on two rungs up that scale.

798
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: So she went back to them and said, Hey, we

799
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 1: need to talk about my compensation. She initiated an internal

800
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: negotiation by going to HR and saying, hey, I'd love

801
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: to find time to talk about my future at the company,

802
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,399
Speaker 1: you know, And she positioned it that way, I'd love

803
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: to talk about and get your feedback at how things

804
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: are going and share with you some of the things

805
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: that I'm considering moving forward. Again, a bold assertive move,

806
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: but it's the way to initiate a negotiation internally. In

807
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: the negotiation, she laid out a very clear case for

808
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: why she was being compensated two rungs below the work

809
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: she was actually doing, and they agreed with her. It

810
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: was like irrefutable the way that that phrasing connected to

811
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: the work she was doing, and she got paid significantly

812
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: more than she had been previously. That's amazing. And the

813
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 1: same thing can be said about your educational background. So

814
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: I don't have a master's degree, but I did a fellowship,

815
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 1: and here's how that fellowship should be compensated comparably. I mean,

816
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: I I'm not gonna I think people should try it.

817
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: I would be sure if you try. If you're a

818
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: teacher and you tried this and it worked, please let me.

819
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: I'm a little differ. You're rightfully dubious. But here's the

820
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: thing I would say, Okay, well, if you're not going

821
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: to see my education, my additional education, or my additional

822
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: experience for my additional training in the same exact light

823
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: as a master's degree, at least we could talk about

824
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 1: compensation for travel or reimbursement for professional developments. To think

825
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 1: that when I was teaching, there did seem to be

826
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 1: there were some other professors who, because they had families

827
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: or blah blah blah, they were able to There must

828
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: have been some understanding at some phase in the negotiation

829
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 1: process where they said I won't work I won't teach

830
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: the classes that happened in the evening. And so I

831
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: wonder if maybe while they couldn't negotiate for salary because

832
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 1: it was just you know, either you have a master's scare,

833
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: you don't um if they said, well, I need to

834
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: be able to make it home by five on Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

835
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: So they just always as a as a single childless

836
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: heaven and I always get stuck with the worst schedule.

837
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: And I can't imagine that somewhere down the line someone

838
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: was not negotiating for that all negotiable. And I'm a

839
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 1: firm believer. And I know a lot of single women

840
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: who say I can't negotiate because my colleagues get to

841
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: negotiate because they have kids, or my colleagues get to

842
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: negotiate because of their special circumstances. You've got to make

843
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: the ace and you might not always be successful. I

844
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 1: get it, I get it, but you can it is negotiable.

845
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: You can make it a priority, and if they don't

846
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: meet you halfway, you can leave. You can negotiate with

847
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: someone else. Here's the thing. It is so important that

848
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: we learn how to initiate negotiation because overwhelming amounts of

849
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: research point to the fact that it's not it's not

850
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: that women aren't confident enough to go for a job

851
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: that they're not perfectly qualified for. It's that women, more

852
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 1: often than men, are more are more likely than men

853
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: to follow the rules. So a lot of times you

854
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: hear you know, men are so confident they'll apply for

855
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: a job before they meet a percent of the statistics,

856
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: and women won't apply for a job and telling me

857
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: percent it's about confidence. It's not about confidence. Women in

858
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,479
Speaker 1: those studies do that they avoid of applying for jobs

859
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: they think are going to be a waste of their

860
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: time because they're trying to follow the rules. We could

861
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: have a whole episode around sort of work and women

862
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: in kind of good girl culture and wanting to be,

863
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 1: you know, rule follower and feeling feeling like you can't

864
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: break the rules because that's bad, and I'm here to

865
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: give you all permission to not take the rules. So seriously,

866
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: people assume that tiring is more formal of a process

867
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 1: than it actually is. Rules bend, use your human nature

868
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: and use human interaction to bend the rules in your favor.

869
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 1: And don't assume that everything is so fixed, because even

870
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: if they list this, you know, seventeen bullet points as

871
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: requirements for the job position or for the promotion. Explore

872
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: whether or not they are indeed required. So here's how

873
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: to initiate a negotiation conversation, even when it's not obvious.

874
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: Said Okay, here's your offer, and now's the time for

875
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: your counter offer, which percent of the time will never

876
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,439
Speaker 1: really ever happen. One ask for the time to talk

877
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: about it. So ask for can I look this offer over?

878
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: Or can we talk about the future of my employment

879
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: at this company next Friday? Get on their schedule. Be

880
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: proactive about asking for time to talk about it. The

881
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: second is to ask straight up, is this negotiable? Can

882
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: we talk about this offtware? Is it? Is there some

883
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: flexibility here if you really don't know? If if they

884
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: sound like they needed yes or no answer right now,

885
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: you can ask them so now if it's negotiable. And finally,

886
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: when your counter offering and someone says I don't know,

887
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 1: I mean this is the offer, and you say, well,

888
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: can we talk about five K more a year and

889
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: they say not really, I'm not sure, you can always

890
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: say can you look into that for me? Yeah? And

891
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: again that's another kind of very constructive. Nice way to

892
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,399
Speaker 1: phrase it where it's not a it's not negative, it's

893
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: not combative. It's not combative, it's inquisitive. I think that

894
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: actually makes you look like a like a good employee.

895
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, this is someone who is interested in

896
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: in problem solving and finding solutions. Yeah, can you run

897
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: that up the flagpole for me? Can you check on

898
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: that for me? It's much harder for them to say no.

899
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: And I actually have heard from a friend who negotiated

900
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: for a huge increase in pay and the hiring managers thought,

901
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: this is not going to have and for you, I

902
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: really doubt that this increase is going to happen, And

903
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: she said consistently, do you mind looking into it? Can

904
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: you find out? And that even though the hiring employer

905
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: or the hiring manager wasn't empowered to give her or

906
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: sort of sanction to give her that much money, when

907
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: she went back and said, well, here's what this Canada

908
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: wants and I know it's way more than we're going

909
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 1: to give her, her boss said yes. So then she

910
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: came back and said you got it, And so she

911
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: got this huge increase in pay. So even if you

912
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: feel a little bit stuck you can always ask them

913
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,439
Speaker 1: to look into it for you sort of really wrap

914
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: up this issue when it really comes down to, like

915
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: with most things, is that we need more systemic change.

916
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: People whold power on this issue should really be UM,

917
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: keeping an eye out for it, paying attend. If you're

918
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 1: a hiring manager, you should be paying attention to the

919
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: different rates that which women and men are asking for

920
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 1: different opportunities. UM. If you have the ability to, you know,

921
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: close the gap on this issue, use that power. UM.

922
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: And really I think manager should be driving this larger

923
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 1: cultural change to get to the place where we to be. Yeah.

924
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: And it's hard, right because I believe in self interest.

925
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 1: I believe that you know, people are selfish. And when

926
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: your job is to save the company money, or your

927
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: job as an HR professional is to keep the company

928
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: out of trouble, you're going to go to great lengths

929
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: to make it harder for people to negotiate. And I

930
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: understand why I run a business like I get that,

931
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: But I talk about negotiation, I have to pull teeth

932
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: to get my staffers to negotiate with me. So negotiating

933
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: with me must be very weird. I can helply imagine.

934
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: But you know, you have to be your own best

935
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: advocate in this, y'all, because until the world is a

936
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: much more fair place and pay is much more transparent,

937
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: you're the only one that can push back and be

938
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: in your corner and ask for more um and and

939
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: to use your best judgment when doing so, because no one,

940
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 1: no one can tell you what your priorities are. And

941
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 1: I guess the last thing I think is really worth

942
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: mentioning here is this advice that we hear a lot,

943
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: that women should always negotiate is advice that I think

944
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: should be pushed back on a little bit. And I'm

945
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 1: the biggest fan of negotiation. I think we should not

946
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: be afraid to negotiate. But I also think that women

947
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 1: know when um when pushing back is going to get

948
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: you in trouble. In a new paper in nb R,

949
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 1: three economists and management researchers found that advising women to

950
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,240
Speaker 1: quote always negotiate might not be in their best interest.

951
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: It seems women already know when negotiations won't work out

952
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 1: in their favor, so they really, you know, sort of

953
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: push back on this blanket advice. It's not a one

954
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: size fit all solution. Keep in mind that two people

955
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: talking to people This is not an abnormal everyday thing.

956
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: You are talking to someone, you're trying to come to

957
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: an agreement, Use your best judgment and keep in mind

958
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: where they're coming from. Use empathy to your advantage in

959
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: this and and and proceed when you know in being

960
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: your corner, but also be empathic in doing so. Yeah,

961
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 1: and I think just remembering that these are tools in

962
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: the toolbox, and you know, if you're a good carpenter

963
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: or whatever, you know when you need a hammer or

964
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: when you need a nail or just having those tools

965
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: and knowing when to use them is key for for

966
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: understanding how this personally will imprint you. But don't be

967
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: the one who can't wield a hammer, because exactly so,

968
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: you have to be comfortable bringing different skills and strategies

969
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: to these equations. So don't avoid negotiation because you don't

970
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: know how to negotiate, or you don't you're just afraid

971
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 1: of negotiation. But use your best you know, you be

972
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: your best advocate, and apply the sort of strategy or

973
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,919
Speaker 1: tool that you think will serve you best in that moment. Yeah,

974
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: good god, I could like talk about negotiation for seventeen

975
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 1: more hours, and in fact, I do over on my

976
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: website and you should check it out. And there's lass

977
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 1: of videos that I create on this topic, and we'll

978
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: be doing a lot more on this soon. Do you

979
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: want to negotiate with me right now? Not? Well, I

980
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: feel like every conversation we have is a bit of

981
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: a negotiation, not in a bad way, an enjoyable negotiation. Yeah,

982
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: we're constantly unpacking big ideas together, which is a kind

983
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: of negot It's just two people talking. It's too and

984
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: we're trying to come to conclusions together, mutually beneficial conclusion

985
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: that All right, y'all, give us your best and worst

986
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 1: negotiation stores. What mistakes did you make? I hope we're

987
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: not alone in this. I hope we're not the only

988
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: people who aren't perfectly raised to negotiate about your negotiation fails.

989
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 1: So send us a tweet at mom stuff podcast, or

990
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 1: shoot us the photo of you negotiating power before you negotiate.

991
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, shows you happy dance after winning a

992
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 1: negotiation on on Instagram at stuff mom never told you?

993
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: Or if you have a power blazer or something like

994
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 1: your negotiation outfit. Oh yeah, what's your negotiation face look like?

995
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: I actually have a photo on my Instagram, um met

996
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:46,760
Speaker 1: a moment here for the podcast. I have a photo

997
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 1: on Instagram of me and Brad the Boot at a

998
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: gas station right after I negotiated this deal with how

999
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: Stuff Works, and I have the biggest smile on my face.

1000
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,080
Speaker 1: We were in the middle of a road trip it

1001
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 1: and I made this thing happen out of like a

1002
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 1: gas station in the middle of nowhere in Kansas. And

1003
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: if you want to check out what a fresh negotiation

1004
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 1: face looks like, you can find it on my personal Insta.

1005
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, send us tabs on your Insta when you

1006
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: negotiate before or after, proferably not during. Yeah, be bad

1007
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: like like negotiations sel be people are like wrap it up,

1008
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: Emily and and as always you can send that's a

1009
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 1: good old fashioned email about your negotiation tips and tricks

1010
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 1: at mom stuff at hell Stuff Works dot com.