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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sense Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Derek Trullman, known as the lead

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Speaker 1: singer of General Giant and the man who signed Bon Jovie,

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Speaker 1: Cinderella Slip, not so many other acts. Derek, good to

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Speaker 1: have you here. Nice to be here with you, Bob.

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Speaker 1: This's as been a long time, absolutely so. Uh. There

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Speaker 1: was recently a fan video of proclamation at General Giant song.

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Speaker 1: How did that come together? It came together actually from

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Speaker 1: my son at who um has been bugging me since

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Speaker 1: he was born actually about uh, he's uh in his

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Speaker 1: mid thirties. Uh, not having seen his father actually be

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Speaker 1: uh person on the stage and having seen me on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the business, and knowing that I

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Speaker 1: was a musician before I was I joined the dark

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Speaker 1: side of the business, as it were. And in the

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Speaker 1: last few years he's been seeing videos of me back

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Speaker 1: in the day forty plus years ago. And he said, why,

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Speaker 1: and it's bizarre that the fan base that we had

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Speaker 1: has grown exponentially. Um, you know it was it was

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Speaker 1: kind of a smallish, cultish fan base, but it's grown

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Speaker 1: exponentially on the internet. And he said, you should really

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Speaker 1: do a a reunion of some kind. I said, Noah,

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Speaker 1: his name is Noah. Uh, that's not going to happen.

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Speaker 1: Here's I've been all far. I thought, you do do

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But he said, so you've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of fans, let's try this out. And I said,

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Speaker 1: go for it if you want to, and in fact

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Speaker 1: he got. He put the word out to the to

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Speaker 1: the fan base out there, and he had hundreds of

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Speaker 1: people sending their versions of proclamation. And he convinced me

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Speaker 1: finally to sing a line or two and the other

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Speaker 1: guys in the band who were alive, which general they

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Speaker 1: are except for our our drummer who passed away at

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Speaker 1: First Bubber quite a few years ago, to to include

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Speaker 1: our own little piece in the in the video. So

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Speaker 1: we did that. He put it together, my brother Ray

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Speaker 1: mixed the audio, and now I put this video up

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Speaker 1: and in in fact, Proud Magazine got involved and said this,

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Speaker 1: this is great. We love this and and now it's

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Speaker 1: got a lot of views. And uh, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting that that my band which I left and we

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Speaker 1: we broke up forty years ago, it's probably more um

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Speaker 1: well known if you like it, and more sort of

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Speaker 1: uh have have a bigger base when we did when

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Speaker 1: we were going at at the time, so it's it's

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Speaker 1: kind of bizarre, but it was his idea and he

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Speaker 1: put it together. And my brother Ray, who does a

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Speaker 1: lot of audio stuff for a lot of other bands

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Speaker 1: five point one mixes, he did the the audio mixes,

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Speaker 1: which which was damned difficult by the way. So I

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Speaker 1: just said, yes, sounds like a good idea. So I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna take any credit for it. Okay, why do

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Speaker 1: you think your audience is so large and larger than

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Speaker 1: it was forty years ago? Lots of lots of answers

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Speaker 1: to that question. I think that um that it's gonna

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Speaker 1: sound rite and it's gonna sound uh, I hope not pretentious.

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Speaker 1: But I think the music held up it was it

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Speaker 1: was music which was authentic. It was music that m

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Speaker 1: I we did for ourselves. Rather than following a lead

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Speaker 1: or following another band and saying, let's play like this,

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Speaker 1: we were a band that put our own selves together

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Speaker 1: and put a band, put our backgrounds and our loves

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Speaker 1: of what kind of music influences together and became gentle giant.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I came from a I started being

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Speaker 1: in a band in the mid sixties when I was

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Speaker 1: at school, so we we went through a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of things. But I think that I think

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Speaker 1: that the music held up and has held up because

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Speaker 1: it's um I hate to use the word that it

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Speaker 1: sounds like a pretentious word, but it's not. It has

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Speaker 1: has It really does have authenticity and and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound like anyone else. We did never try to sound

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Speaker 1: like anyone else. Of course, we all had influences personally

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Speaker 1: of what we loved, and we draw dragged in those

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Speaker 1: influences into the band, and the band those influences were

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Speaker 1: started to a part if you like, and became gentle

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Speaker 1: giant okay uh today, and I know everybody hates being

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Speaker 1: labeled general giant was certainly seen as prog rock. Prog

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Speaker 1: rock has a bad name in general. In addition, rock

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Speaker 1: is not dominating the church. Is this a past say style? Were?

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Speaker 1: Is there room for prague rock in today's world? Bob?

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Speaker 1: You know what, We never considered ourselves trag or or

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Speaker 1: or rock, yes, but prague. No. We just did what

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Speaker 1: we did, and luckily and thankfully we did. We were

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Speaker 1: We put our band together at a time when there

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Speaker 1: was no titling there was no chiron saying this is

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Speaker 1: a kind of band you are. We were just a

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Speaker 1: band that put our music again, are our influences and

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Speaker 1: are who we were together? And um we made music

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Speaker 1: that we enjoyed, and we pushed ourselves musically, uh, personally

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Speaker 1: for each other. Um. And then we when we pushed

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Speaker 1: ourselves musically for each other, we took it on stage

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Speaker 1: and hopefully one or two people would show up and

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Speaker 1: pay money, and we make a living for it. So

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Speaker 1: being labeled as a progue rock band, I don't think

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Speaker 1: we ever considered what we were. We were rocked because

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Speaker 1: we had we enjoyed rocking. We are our backgrounds. My

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Speaker 1: backgrounds certainly is in R and B and blues and

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Speaker 1: everything else, and my brothers was in classical etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: But as far as being uh relevant today, it for

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Speaker 1: me it doesn't really matter. I don't care. But obviously

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Speaker 1: the way I've seen it, uh and the way that

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Speaker 1: what's transpired on the internet, it seemsonally it seems to

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Speaker 1: be um a little more relevant today than it used

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Speaker 1: to be actually in a strange way. And because it's

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Speaker 1: interesting to see the the who sent in the music

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Speaker 1: two for this video which you mentioned, and I would

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Speaker 1: say three cores, if not seven eighths of the people

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Speaker 1: that sent in their musical pieces who were were people

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Speaker 1: who are are under thirty. So we're not talking about

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Speaker 1: all farce going back and saying, you know, trying to

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Speaker 1: pick up the guitars and they're authritis getting in the

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Speaker 1: way of them playing their their instruments. It was young

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Speaker 1: people listening to the music we made and enjoying it

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Speaker 1: and and and enjoying it for a reason. And I

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Speaker 1: guess the reason was because it was relevant to them.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if it's answering a question or

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Speaker 1: giving you an answer, but um, past I I don't

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Speaker 1: think so. I think that if it's it's the it's

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Speaker 1: the same as it It's the same as great jazz,

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Speaker 1: it's a great it's the same as great um dance music,

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Speaker 1: is the same as great musical, great classical music. It

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Speaker 1: stands the test of time. And I think from what

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Speaker 1: I see, I hope that our music has that stood

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Speaker 1: the test of time. Um, which for me is kind

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Speaker 1: of bizarre because I, as you know, I joined the

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Speaker 1: dark side of the business issue as we just as

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Speaker 1: you just introduced me to uh, and the interesting thing

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Speaker 1: that I've discovered and no, and really it's very very

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Speaker 1: interesting to me because, as you know, we've talked over

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Speaker 1: the years about what this businesses and who we are

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Speaker 1: and how we are how we get along in this

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Speaker 1: crazy world of ours, and right now it's the craziest time, um,

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Speaker 1: having done most things in the business. If you like,

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Speaker 1: what people come back to, and this is me personally,

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Speaker 1: what people will come back to for me is the music.

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Speaker 1: It's not about the business. It's not about record sales.

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Speaker 1: It's not about who's bigger who's not. It's not about

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Speaker 1: you know, all the other means of hearing, the streaming

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Speaker 1: and this that, the other tiktoks and and it's etcetera.

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Speaker 1: It's about the music. And when people talk to me,

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Speaker 1: it's not about bon Jovi or or or or slip

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Speaker 1: Not or Pantera or whatever. It's about what I did

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Speaker 1: when I was a musician. And that's very heartening for me. Actually. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so how did you decide to give up being a

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Speaker 1: musician and go to the side. Well, that's another story

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Speaker 1: again because as I explained to you prior, um the

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Speaker 1: General Giant. We started the General Giant in but I

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Speaker 1: started my first group and when I was at school

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six. Uh, and that was an incredible period,

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Speaker 1: I have to say. Uh. My first group was a

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Speaker 1: group called Sigma Dupre and the Big Sound. I was

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Speaker 1: at school, my brother was at school. My older brother

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Speaker 1: was a school teacher. We put a band together and

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Speaker 1: we we loved R and B and blues and everything

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Speaker 1: else like most of the other classic rock bands of

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Speaker 1: today did. And we went on the road. And even

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Speaker 1: though we were I was at school, we went on

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Speaker 1: the road and worked nine days a week, literally getting

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Speaker 1: a fan base and eventually having a couple of very

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Speaker 1: big hits. Um. Those hits became uh, We're We're good

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Speaker 1: for us in certain respects, but became a millstone around

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Speaker 1: our next because we were expected to be a pop

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Speaker 1: band and stay in the same groove. So I decided,

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Speaker 1: we decided, I'll give you a long story and if if,

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Speaker 1: if it's too long, if it's too long, keep going.

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Speaker 1: So um in nine, when we broke the first band

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Speaker 1: uf um, it was a decision that we were studied

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Speaker 1: by the fact that we were a pop band and

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Speaker 1: that and that really stopped his uh, you know, doing

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Speaker 1: something new and when we were playing to a an

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Speaker 1: audience who are eating scampionships, you know, and waiting for

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Speaker 1: the hits. That really kind of got to me more

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Speaker 1: than anyone. So I said, we don't want to do

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Speaker 1: this anymore. Thankfully, we had a manager. And this is

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Speaker 1: back in the day when managers believed in musicians. M

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Speaker 1: We had a manager that undertook to UH finance a

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Speaker 1: new project that we said we want to put together UM.

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Speaker 1: And his name was Jerry Braun and I give him

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Speaker 1: full credit for this. Uh. He put money into our

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Speaker 1: pocket for weekly monthly salaries because he believed in us

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Speaker 1: as musicians. So we found three other musicians This is

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Speaker 1: myself and my two our other brothers who we want

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Speaker 1: who we wanted to do something again new. We didn't

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Speaker 1: know what it was, but it was wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: be what we were. We wanted to be the antithesis

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Speaker 1: of this pop thing which we got out of UM

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Speaker 1: and other bands were doing at the very same time

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Speaker 1: that I mentioned, UH, you know, bands like the Move,

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Speaker 1: the Idol, Race, Moody Blues, Oh boy, there's that. So

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Speaker 1: at that period of time, the mid sixties to the

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Speaker 1: latest to the late sixties and the seventies, all in England.

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Speaker 1: It was an incredible time and just I can't, I

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Speaker 1: can't describe how amazing it was. And then from the

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Speaker 1: in the mid early mid seventies, everything's changed, but it

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Speaker 1: was in UK where it was. It was so element

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Speaker 1: and so obvious. Anyway, so we became gentle giant. We

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Speaker 1: took about six six months in rehearsals and we found

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Speaker 1: this keyboard player called Carrie men Here who was a

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Speaker 1: recent graduate of the Royal Academy of Music in composition actually,

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Speaker 1: and Gary Green, who was a real blues player. I

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Speaker 1: mean he was you know, we came in whiled away at.

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Speaker 1: In fact, he was the very first we we we

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Speaker 1: we interviewed wed I don't know how many guitarists, maybe

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Speaker 1: thirty five, forty, and he was the very first one

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Speaker 1: that said can I tune up? So he got he

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Speaker 1: got a kind of a gold star next to his name,

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Speaker 1: and we went to a couple of drubbers. But the

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Speaker 1: bottom line is so we we spent about six or

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Speaker 1: nine months recording, rehearsing and writing and putting this band

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Speaker 1: together and putting our first and then going into the

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Speaker 1: studio and I think November of nine seventy with Tony

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Speaker 1: Visconti as this group called Gentle Giant. Uh. And it

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Speaker 1: was really an amalgam of different kinds of music, a

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Speaker 1: different kind of influences that we came from and and

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Speaker 1: and our new found friends slash um band members. That

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Speaker 1: became what Gentle Giant became. And it was a really

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Speaker 1: kind of the birth of a realization. If you like,

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Speaker 1: that's the first song of a song called Giant, and

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Speaker 1: that was where we were, and that was the first,

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Speaker 1: um the first recording of the ten year tenor career

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Speaker 1: of a bigger Gentle Giant. Yes, but we're leading up

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Speaker 1: to the question, how did you decide to pack it

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Speaker 1: in as a musician? Oh, yes, you did say that

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Speaker 1: well as a musician in UM so was all, wow,

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Speaker 1: was this amazing? And then we went through his again.

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Speaker 1: Bands go through this bands bands, and I think everyone

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Speaker 1: goes through a seven generations of band. If you like,

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Speaker 1: you're born, you're born, you're an ada lesson you come,

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Speaker 1: you become a young adult, you become an adult, become

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Speaker 1: middle aged, you become older, and you become old. We

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Speaker 1: became a little old towards the late seventies and I

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Speaker 1: just felt it creatively and even um the passion of

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Speaker 1: going out in front of the crowd. And I remembered

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Speaker 1: the last tour, the idea of going out and playing

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Speaker 1: the songs and recording. It was a whole It was

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Speaker 1: a whole sort of cycle of things. You record, you rehearse,

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Speaker 1: your tour, your record, your rehearse, you tour. And and

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Speaker 1: as I said, that's what I brought up, my my prior,

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Speaker 1: a gentle giant life if you like, because I've done

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Speaker 1: it for fifteen years. And I remembered that we were

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Speaker 1: touring the USA again and playing Peoria or Wayne Wayne

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Speaker 1: Indiana or fourt Way Indiana should they say. And then

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Speaker 1: in these kind of places held no no, um, no

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Speaker 1: sort of excitement for me. And when something feels like

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Speaker 1: a job, and it felt like we are going out

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Speaker 1: on a job, it really kind of feels like it's

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Speaker 1: time to stop. And I would say this to anyone,

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Speaker 1: no matter what your job is. And I know most

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Speaker 1: people cannot do this, but the fact, the fact that

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Speaker 1: a creative person would go out and say, oh God,

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Speaker 1: we have to tour again, and okay, we have to

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Speaker 1: get together in Buffalo and play the Buffalo gig. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was like, do we have to Yes, I guess

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Speaker 1: we have to do it because we have to make

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Speaker 1: a living. But when when you feel that way in

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Speaker 1: the creative world, that's the time to stop because you're

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Speaker 1: not being creative. You're not you're not using any passion.

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Speaker 1: It's it's like clocking in and clocking out. And that's

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Speaker 1: I kind of knew it, and I think some of

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Speaker 1: the other members knew that. It was like, Okay, it

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Speaker 1: feels like we're doing the same thing over and over

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Speaker 1: again unless we did something completely different, which I don't

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Speaker 1: think we were able to do. Other bands of our

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Speaker 1: ill like Yes and Genesis, were they were able to

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Speaker 1: take their music into a pop direction. We never could.

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Speaker 1: So we felt like a job. And when it feels

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Speaker 1: like a job, we said that's it. Time to stop,

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Speaker 1: and we did. Okay, Well, was everybody on the same page.

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Speaker 1: How long did it take to come to this conclusion?

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Speaker 1: As you say, you've been doing it fifteen years and

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Speaker 1: you're only thirty years old. Um, yeah, Two or three

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Speaker 1: of the band came to the same conclusion. A couple

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Speaker 1: of the other guys were not of the same opinion,

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Speaker 1: but nevertheless, it was you know what, what I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to do, and what what I never want to do,

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Speaker 1: and what I think my brothers I never want to do,

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Speaker 1: and perhaps that the other guys in the band want

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Speaker 1: to do and wanted to do has become a parody

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Speaker 1: of who you were and who you are and to

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Speaker 1: rehash the same things that you're doing over and over again.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it was a chapter. It was a

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Speaker 1: fantastic chapter, and they all are pieces of life, but

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Speaker 1: it was not something I wanted to go out and

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Speaker 1: do the same thing. And when if you again, when

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Speaker 1: it feels like a job, when it feels like you're

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Speaker 1: clocking in and clocking out in the creative world, for me,

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Speaker 1: you know, for me, it didn't work and I had

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Speaker 1: to stop. When you did stop, did you already have

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Speaker 1: it in your mind what you were going to do next?

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Speaker 1: Or you just said I can't do this anymore, Bob,

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Speaker 1: I had no clue. I had absolutely no clue. I

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Speaker 1: knew I didn't want to do that any I mean,

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Speaker 1: I knew I didn't want to do the circus of

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Speaker 1: touring and this and that the other that I knew

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Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to to record, to be a producer,

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Speaker 1: that didn't tackle my fancy either. I mean, I enjoyed

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Speaker 1: being in the studio and working with the guys, but

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Speaker 1: that really had no interest for me either. To be

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Speaker 1: locked into a room twenty seven which had no darkness.

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Speaker 1: So for a year or so I had no clue.

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Speaker 1: I was lost, to tell you the truth. And then

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Speaker 1: a friend of mine, well, just to stay there. Since

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Speaker 1: you were on the road to earn a living for

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Speaker 1: did you have enough money to not work for a year?

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Speaker 1: Believe it a lot, Thankfully I did. It's it's great

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Speaker 1: to say this, but we were lucky, I guess lucky

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Speaker 1: in the respect that um I took on the mantel

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Speaker 1: halfway through the seventies of becoming the Sequaisi manager uh

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Speaker 1: and and and the guy that understood what it took

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Speaker 1: on the other side of the defense, as well as

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Speaker 1: being part of the band. In retrospect um, it's a mistake.

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Speaker 1: It was a mistake because you lose on one side

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Speaker 1: because you're not you're you're in the band, so you

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Speaker 1: can't give a real objective viewpoint on that big a manager.

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Speaker 1: At the same time you're in the band, so you

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Speaker 1: can't give your attributes to being creative However, what it

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Speaker 1: did was give set me up for what I did

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Speaker 1: next in in a in a way that I think, um,

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Speaker 1: did you know? Did me? Okay? So I was able

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Speaker 1: to make sure that the band had enough money again

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Speaker 1: because I was looking after the bunnies coming in for

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Speaker 1: the group, that we all shared it equally and I

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Speaker 1: knew where it was as opposed to going in other

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Speaker 1: people's pockets. So yes, I was able to get along

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Speaker 1: and not work per se if you like, for a

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Speaker 1: year or so and wonder what the hell I was

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Speaker 1: gonna do. However, you know, after a year and a

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Speaker 1: half or whatever it was gonna get it was gonna

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Speaker 1: get haired. So thankfully, um, So to answer you a

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Speaker 1: question that that's exactly what it was. But I got

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Speaker 1: a call from a friend um in New York who

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Speaker 1: I knew from UK. He was a head of PolyGram International,

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Speaker 1: who worked for Prisonless Records, who he was sign two

335
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Speaker 1: back in the day, and he said, have you ever

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Speaker 1: thought about joining you know, a record company? And that

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00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: was like an asthma to me. You know, what are

338
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 1: you talking about? That's the enemy. But in certain respects

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Speaker 1: um as you as you as you put it, so

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Speaker 1: so uh you know clinically, Um, I had to make

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Speaker 1: a living. So I thought, well, you know, let me

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Speaker 1: let me see, let me give it a shot. So

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Speaker 1: I went up to New York. I was living in

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Speaker 1: California at the time, which I hated by the way. Um,

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Speaker 1: and went up to New York and got offered a

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Speaker 1: job as a promotion man of all things and an

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Speaker 1: artist development, but promotion primarily. Um, but that's a grind

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Speaker 1: being a radio promotion person. Well, the reason I was hired,

349
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Speaker 1: to tell you the truth, was because the guy who

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Speaker 1: was who hired me, Jerry Jassy, and operated to him. Um,

351
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Speaker 1: he what the reason? Why are they? And this is

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00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 1: again getting back to the prior lifetime if you like,

353
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Speaker 1: It was because two of my biggest fans are the

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Speaker 1: biggest fans of the group, were Lee Abrams and Jeff Pollock.

355
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Speaker 1: And Lee Abrams, of course, as you probably know, was

356
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Speaker 1: a consultant to one of the biggest radio station consultants,

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Speaker 1: and he was a big fan and and and Jeff

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Speaker 1: had had another consultancy for radio. And I guess Jerry thought, boy,

359
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Speaker 1: I think if Derek can get to him, then then

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Speaker 1: we're all set. Well, of course that didn't work, but nevertheless,

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Speaker 1: I think that's why I got the gig um. But thankfully,

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Speaker 1: I said, very quickly into something which I enjoyed more,

363
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Speaker 1: was amusing. But that's the reason, to tell you the truth,

364
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Speaker 1: the reason why I got the gig in the first place. Okay,

365
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 1: so then it transmogrifies into the music. What does that

366
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Speaker 1: look like? Well, it was. It was interesting because having

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Speaker 1: been on the road and been a musician, I knew

368
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Speaker 1: a lot of the musicians and bands and everything else.

369
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Speaker 1: So a lot of people, managers and managers especially, would

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Speaker 1: come in and go to the A and R department.

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Speaker 1: At that time, PolyGram was kind of a bit of

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Speaker 1: a mess. It was like it was they were still

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Speaker 1: trying to put Phillips and and and Seamens together to

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Speaker 1: make a real company. And in certain respects it was

375
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Speaker 1: kind of like a free for all and it was

376
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Speaker 1: there was no real sort of top down leadership. It

377
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: was more for me inside, and there was a group

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Speaker 1: of us saying, let's let's let's make this company. Let's

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Speaker 1: do something interesting here. And there was there was already

380
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Speaker 1: a cattle. It was already a few bands in the

381
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Speaker 1: in the in the roster like kiss like uh def Leppard, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: There were just bubbling under and Um I was again

383
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Speaker 1: Jerry Brown, who was my manager at at for Gentle Giant,

384
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Speaker 1: UM came in with my very first A and R thing,

385
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: if you like, was he came with a new Ura

386
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Speaker 1: Heat record. He didn't go to the A and R department.

387
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 1: He went came to me said, Derek, do you think

388
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 1: you can uh, you know you can convince and anyone

389
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 1: that's worth putting out. I said, let me hear it.

390
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 1: And they had a couple of songs on the album,

391
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Speaker 1: uh It's One song was called That's the Way that

392
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: It Is and the other song was called on the Rebound,

393
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Speaker 1: And I said, I think this could do well, And

394
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Speaker 1: in fact I helped them get a deal with the

395
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 1: fact that song became a decent science kit and put

396
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: them on the road again to being a a band

397
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: that was kind of meaningful in the US and sold

398
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Speaker 1: quite a lot of records. So that maybe think about

399
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: segging into the A and R world, which I did

400
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: very quickly. Said since then, so I started promotion but

401
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: effectively went into A and R virtually straight away. I

402
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 1: mean the six months a year I was in A

403
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: and R. But I still retained my you know, my radio,

404
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 1: people with friends and everything else. So you know, I

405
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: was able to do all these things at the same time,

406
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: knowing the bands and musicians and everything else. The one

407
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: thing that one, the one thing I just remembered was

408
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: as is that the bands and the artists of the

409
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: managers who came and would remember me from the road

410
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: because I was. I was on the road until a

411
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: year or two ago prior to that, and they knew

412
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: that they couldn't say, well, you don't know what it's

413
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: like to do this, or here we are doing this

414
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: because I, yes, I I didn't know what it's like.

415
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: I knew it was like to sleep in a van.

416
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 1: I knew there was like to live in a to

417
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: to fly in concorde. I knew it was like to

418
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: sleep on the floor before a gig. So the one

419
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: thing I had going for me, and I think those

420
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: managers and musicians appreciated the fact that I didn't come

421
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: from a world where where I was just hanging out

422
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: backstage wishing I was on the stage. Um, so I

423
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: think I could relate to the managers and artists in

424
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: a way that most other people couldn't. Okay, so how

425
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: did that lead to after You're Rye Heap what came next?

426
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,719
Speaker 1: I believe it or not, bon Jovin, So tell us

427
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: the story of bon Jovi. Well, that was a that

428
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 1: was the first literally the first signing as a quote

429
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: A and R man that I had, And in fact

430
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: it's the man. The attorney of bon Jovi at the

431
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: time was a guy based in Philadelphia. And I've heard

432
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: a song on w A p P called Runaway. You know,

433
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,719
Speaker 1: that was running at the same time as as as I.

434
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: You know, I was listening to that and and I

435
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: heard this song run Away, and that's the point, that's

436
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: that sounds great. And somebody introduced me to whoever it

437
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 1: was John Boovi, who was totally bon Jovi's second cousin,

438
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: who was at the power station he recorded. A guy

439
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: called Arthur Man. He was an attorney, and he said,

440
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 1: you've heard I've heard, You've heard you like this song Runaway.

441
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: Can I bring us the demos? And he said, I

442
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: said sure, by all means. So he brought four demos

443
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 1: to me and he said John is great. Um, he's

444
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: putting a band together, um and um. I listened to

445
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 1: the demos and I said they sound pretty good. But

446
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: I really like runaway. I'd like to meet John. And

447
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: so I did, and he was. He was like, no,

448
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: not too many other people I've met in my life.

449
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: This is prior to him putting his band together. He's

450
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 1: still putting the band together. Um. I think that Dave

451
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: Sabo we just left, and I think Richie was just

452
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: coming in. Um. But John I met, and UM, I've

453
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: never seen anyone as young been so focused and driven.

454
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about someone who, uh it was

455
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: very It was a novice. He's still working at the

456
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: power station, sweeping forward, so he said, which he wasn't.

457
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: By the way, Um, there's a lot of bubbles to

458
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 1: birst here. So uh, first away he was he was.

459
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: He was as a synecure. He was, he was. He

460
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: was playing around with the board when told he was looking, etcetera, etcetera.

461
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, Um, he got his job from his second cousin.

462
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: John was was one of the most driven people I've

463
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: ever met in my life, even as a kid. Um.

464
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: And he said, I want you to meet my mom

465
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: and dad. So I went to Seaville, New Jersey and

466
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: met his mom and dad. Uh, and I did, and

467
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: I said, and they said look, if you're interested in

468
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: working with John, please take care of them. That's and

469
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: they really did. And And why do you think he

470
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: wanted you to meet his parents? Because I think he

471
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 1: believed in me, and I think he wanted to make

472
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: sure his parents felt the same way. And and and

473
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: you know, I believed in in John as a personality,

474
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: as a person that was completely driven to be the

475
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: b He already believed he was going to be bigger

476
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 1: than Elvis. And that was after one song Runaway. And

477
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: anyone who has that confidence and you look at someone

478
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: whose eye, you look at someone in the eye and say,

479
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 1: are they bullshitting me or not? He was not bullshitting me.

480
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: I knew that instinctively. I know that. And he wanted

481
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: to be the biggest And I thought, if he wasn't

482
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: that bad and he's that driven, I wanted to be

483
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: part of this um. So he was. He putting the

484
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: band together, and then a couple of showcases for me

485
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: and and the department. You know, one of one or

486
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: two of them weren't that great, but you can see

487
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: that John was. John had an appeal obviously for girls.

488
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: I mean, he's a good looking kid with with hair

489
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: to the Max and Richie Sambora came in as was

490
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: a great double act for him. You you always have

491
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: the yin yang on stage, so Richard became the sort

492
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: of yang of John's ying. Uh, and we we signed

493
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: to a deal. Okay, How hard was it to convince

494
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: the label? If at all? Not that hard? Well, not

495
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: that hard. I mean, I don't think there was. It

496
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: was a raw ra let's go for its going to

497
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: be massive, but I I felt it was and I

498
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: stuck with them, and I knew it possibly could be. Okay,

499
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: were you bidding against anybody else or was problem? No?

500
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: I think there was interest in in Atlantic, some kind

501
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: of interest, but really not really anyone. And I don't

502
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: one thing I've never done in my life actually to

503
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: tell you what is go bit against it. I never

504
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: would build a bit against anyone else. If that goes on,

505
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: I'm out. I don't do that. That's not what I do,

506
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: because then you're in a situation where your dad if

507
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: you do, adapt if you don't. And the bottom line

508
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: is you if you're bidding, people are gonna look at

509
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: you with a microscope and say, see I told you so.

510
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: That would never have worked for me, And and thankfully.

511
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: Most of the bands you've took you discussed that. I

512
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: can talk about other ones, and some of them are big,

513
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: big stiffs, but I won't talk about those. But they've

514
00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: been generally bands that have been overlooked or under later

515
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: or whatever it is that no one really else is interested.

516
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: And I saw their potential and you know it, having

517
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: come from my musical background, if you like, I've been

518
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: lucky enough to you know, on the scale of for

519
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: success in the failure. There's been plenty of failures, but

520
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: success is of weight a little more, and I've been

521
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: able to make a living. Okay, So you signed bon Jovie.

522
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: What's the next step in terms of making music? Putting

523
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: the album together and then having going into the studio

524
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: with with Um, with Tony and and uh lads Quinn

525
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: who was the engineer, and putting the first album together

526
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: with Runaway as the first single, and it did fairly well.

527
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: But the most important thing, I think at the same

528
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: time was getting Doc McGee involved. And that's another story itself,

529
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: doc Uh, and I know that there's lots of history

530
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: and lots of history written and rewritten and everything else.

531
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: Doc what came into my office at the very same

532
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: time that I was looking at bon Jovi as as

533
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: a potential signing, and he was. He was managing Pat

534
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: Travers at the time and trying to get the band

535
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: of the labeled interest in Pat Travers. But I saw

536
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: Doc and again I saw someone who went to each

537
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: office and worked every office like they were the main company,

538
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: like they were they were running the company. As a boy,

539
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: this guy is a smart dude. He's he's he goes

540
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: into every office and makes everyone feel like they had

541
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: their kingship. And so he came into my office and

542
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: he said, yeah, Pat Travis, And I said, Doc, you know,

543
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: Pat's great, But I mean, what who else you're working with?

544
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: I think it was some R and B artists. I've

545
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: thought this artist called bon Jovi and he's about to

546
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: make a record, I want you to meet him. And

547
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: at the same time, there was a couple of other

548
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: managers who were sniffing around, David krebs and and John Share.

549
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: But I wanted Doctor meeting because I saw how he

550
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: was working every office and making them feel like they

551
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: were they were running the company. And that was important

552
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: for me. If I was party, party, party to do

553
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: party to this whole thing, it's a very bizarre thing.

554
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: And I'm telling you that the truth, the sort of

555
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: truth of what's happened, what happens in what what happened

556
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: back in the day of how you had to work

557
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: inside as well as outside. I had John meet with

558
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: with Doc and it was love at first sight or

559
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: first first meeting, and they came to a deal. He

560
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: had to meet the parents as well, and Doc man.

561
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: It was the first manager a bon Jovi and the

562
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: first thing he did was say, do the album, but

563
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: get your ass on the road because right now you

564
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: look like a little girl with with with with you know,

565
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: your purple type leather pants on. So he put them

566
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: on the road with the rat and Scorpions and god

567
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: knows what else is. And and to tell you the truth,

568
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: he was fantastic and he put them on the road

569
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: with bands that he want that he wanted and we

570
00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: wanted John and bon Jovi to be the band that

571
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: with a rock with the great pop music and to

572
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: learn how to work that audience. So he was very

573
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: instrumental in in making Bone over the what they became. Okay,

574
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: so you make the first record you have runaway, you

575
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: re release in a better fashion now talk. The second record.

576
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: The second record was was a sophomore kind of flop,

577
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: if you like, in certain respects because they had to read.

578
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: They had to write new songs. That you know, John

579
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: and the band had written some of the songs probably

580
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: over like the last ten years, so they had to

581
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: write some new songs. And we had to decide who

582
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: we would record and and produce it. Lance Quinn, who

583
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: had worked at the power station. Uh, he was there

584
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: and on the first record, he said, let's record it

585
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. So we did. And to tell you the truth,

586
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: it was a bit of a disaster. Um, it was

587
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: really very the atmosphere was awful. Of songs were not

588
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: quite as good as the first album. And um it

589
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: was it was an okay album, but it you know,

590
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: but it was not a great album. And and but

591
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: nevertheless it did okay. It was seventy degrees Paralyite, which

592
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: I never agreed with the title. It was an awful title.

593
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: The you know, the boiling point of I don't know

594
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: was John the boiling point of of of stone or something?

595
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. Actually, to tell you the truth, it

596
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: was not my idea. Again, it was neither. It was

597
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: like John's John the vision, but the the recording was

598
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: a terrible process. And in fact I had a kind

599
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: of firelands and that was a process process it itself. UM,

600
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: and and get it finished by by Tony actually um

601
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: and Tony Tony by Tony Bongiovi to mix it Um

602
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: who didn't want to do it, but he did because

603
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: he got point. But it was it was not a

604
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: very pleasant experience, Um. But it did the trick in fact,

605
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: in that he kept him out there and John and

606
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: Doc kept him out there working. It wasn't a stiff

607
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: it was. It was an okay second album. It was

608
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: a software kind of slumpy record, but he kept him

609
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: out there. And then and then we reassembled if you

610
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: if you were talking about bon Jovi's career, okay, we

611
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: we reassembled ourselves again after the touring. And I you know,

612
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: I got to know um, Bruce Fairburn and Bob Rock

613
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: from from listening to a couple of albums and Bob

614
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: I was a fan of My health grew again goes

615
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: back to fans and groups and musicianship and everything else.

616
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: And they were they I think they just don't love

617
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: a boy and Honeymoon Sweet, and I listened to those records,

618
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: and I thought, boy, they have a great sound, and

619
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: also the choruses and everything else were fantastic and everything else.

620
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: At the same time, John and Doc and the band

621
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: knew that to go to the next level they needed

622
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: to have number one, a great producer, Number two songs

623
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: that would cut through the midst of the cut through

624
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: the world of rock radio and ao R radio or

625
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: whatever that meant. At the same time, MTV was was

626
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: the the big the big knocker in the house. Um

627
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: so I another story. So um I said, boy, you

628
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: know John, would you you would you think? What do

629
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: you think about getting someone to write songs with you?

630
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: And John being the pragmatist that he is and being

631
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: the driven person that they would do most things to

632
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: make sure he got there. He sa fine, who are

633
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: you thinking? Are you thinking about? And I said, well,

634
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: I got introduced to this guy, Desmond Child by paulse

635
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: Alie and Jean Simmons who did who? And I had

636
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: learned like the year before they wrote Lick It Up.

637
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: And I said, that's our kiss song, that's and I

638
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 1: and and and Paula. Jean said, you remember Desmond Child rouge.

639
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 1: I said, yes, we were on Capitol together. Anyway, these

640
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 1: stories intertwined. This is great. So I said, this guy,

641
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: Desmond Child apparently is really good because kiss you know,

642
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: Paul and Jean have told me that he's a great songwriter.

643
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: Why didn't you guys get together? And he said, fine,

644
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: no problem, let's let's introduce me. So that we did,

645
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: and they got together and they wrote songs together, and

646
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: I think, so I'll just say the rest is history

647
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: because I wrote Living on a Prayer, you give love

648
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: a bad name, bad medicine, you know, etcetera, etcetera, and

649
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: bon Jovi and they went into the studio in Vancouver

650
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: with Bruce Fairburne and Bob Rock and Mike Fraser being

651
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: on tape off and they built the following despite the

652
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: fact that they were still, you know, on the road

653
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: with all these other bands supporting it. The one thing

654
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 1: that John was never afraid of, the band was never

655
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: afraid of, was playing. They toured and toured and they

656
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: that was the key. They didn't they didn't let up.

657
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: They knew that they had to continue to build their

658
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 1: fan base, not just in North America, all over the world. Um.

659
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: So putting all these elements together, um as soon as

660
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: the album was done. Okay, the album was in an

661
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,399
Speaker 1: easy process. And two did you realize what you had?

662
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: First question? Easy process? Yes, it was. It was the

663
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: most It was the easiest process we had. And and

664
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 1: and we we knew absolutely when it came when when

665
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: the album was mastered, absolutely hundred percent knew that this

666
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: we had it. We had something. This is going to

667
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: be a big, big, big hit. I knew it. We

668
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: all knew it. And then what you know, there's a

669
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 1: famous story that they had two key in the original covers.

670
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: Did you worked at the label? What was the story there? Well,

671
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: that's true, that's that's the fact. Actually we you know

672
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: that was there's a lot of that. We had all

673
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: the all the other people involved in in in the

674
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: company wanted to be part of this success. So we

675
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: I don't know who decided that this girl with a

676
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: pink bikini that ripped off was a great idea for

677
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: the title cut for the album cover, and we thought, boy,

678
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: this is not a rock band. This is like I mean,

679
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: you want Billy's Choaties to go down the tubes, this

680
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: is even better. Um So actually John and and John

681
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: was the one that said, holy ship, we can't do this.

682
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: At the same time, there's about fifties to sixty thousand

683
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: units already pressed up in the in the plant. So

684
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,760
Speaker 1: we held everything and to tell you to be honest,

685
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: John and Dog said, stop the presses. We have to

686
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: get a new a new cover. And John and I

687
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: think Martin Weiss when this this it went into their

688
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: little studo and John said, let's get it um a

689
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: plastic garbage bag and I'm gonna spray. The three went

690
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: wet on this garbage has put my finger across it.

691
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: Take a picture of that. That's the cover, and all

692
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: power to him because it was his idea and we

693
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: had to change things in the right and midstream, and

694
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 1: that became the cover. I thank god it did, because

695
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: the other one is a disaster or would have been

696
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: looked at despite the fact that music inside the the

697
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: LP as it was then it was great, but it

698
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: would have been viewed viewed like um, something we didn't

699
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: want the band to be. So yes that that happened

700
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: just as it was about to be released. Thankfully, we

701
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: put the brakes on right over the last second as

702
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: far as the the visuals were concerned. And I think

703
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: the first song out was bad name. I believe it was,

704
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: and then Living on a Prayer was the second our

705
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: second track of them. Okay, so a little bit slower.

706
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: What happened you put out the record? Is it react immediately?

707
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: What's it like being at the belly of the beast

708
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: through the roof? I mean it was, it was there

709
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: were there are times in your life you know there

710
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: there's we all know there are there are there are

711
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: peaks and valleys. Uh and and I just remember number

712
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: one here in this album and knowing I knew that

713
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 1: this was it. I knew it. And when you heard

714
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 1: it on the radio and you saw it on MTV,

715
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: we got Wayne uh oh, the videographers Uh anyway, the

716
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: guy who who does all the best videos to do

717
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: the video which looked like it was on you know,

718
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: he was it was. It was playing in front of

719
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: twenty thousand people when he was already playing in front

720
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: of two thousand if if that when he when he

721
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: was doing it, the video looked amazing. The song went

722
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: on the radio, it immediately became a gigantic hit immediately,

723
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: and the album just blew into number one. It was

724
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: just it was it was like it was like something

725
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: that you you rarely see it in your lifetime, and

726
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: it was. It was a spectacular time for everyone, for

727
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 1: the company, for the band, for Dark and everyone else.

728
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: And to tell you the truth, for me because I

729
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: believed in him as as someone who wanted this so badly.

730
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: I knew he had the potential of talent to do

731
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: what he wanted to do and and to see it

732
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: through with other people helping him. So you know, again,

733
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: it was wasn't just John, although John is an incredible

734
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: quick learner, and boy does he ever. You know, he's

735
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: like a sponge who who takes it in and become

736
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: it becomes him. But he had all these other people

737
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,240
Speaker 1: behind him to make this probably one of the biggest

738
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: albums uh rock albums of all time. Okay, now agiven

739
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: At this time, the A and R people had a

740
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: piece of the record. Did you have a piece of

741
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: bon Jovi's records? Yes? I did? Okay, that's great. You

742
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: still you you still get paid on him? I No,

743
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: I don't, because I know I don't. I wish I did. Boy,

744
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: that was you know. I'm not sure I could be

745
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,479
Speaker 1: locked down somewhere else, I guess in a cruise ship.

746
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: No I don't, But at that time, yes I did.

747
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: I was why did the royalties end because I quit

748
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: the company? Okay, so it was only long you were there. Okay.

749
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: At the same time, you're working with Cinderella. How do

750
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: you get Cinderella? Uh? Cinderella was another man from the

751
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: Philadelphia area, New Jersey, Philadelphia area. UM. I think it

752
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: was introduced to me by again the same manager at

753
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: the same same agent. But again John Uh you Tom

754
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: Keefer again, these things input into twined and I can't

755
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: put his hind lines. It's very mud put time lines

756
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: in between who said what, when and whatever? But I

757
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: remembered Uh. And Larry Maser, who was a manager, contacted

758
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: me and said, boy, you did a great job with

759
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: bon Jovi. This I've got this band, Cinderella, and I've

760
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 1: heard about them because Arthur Man, the the Philadelphia lawyer,

761
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: said there's got another great band out of the area.

762
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: I went down to see Cinderella in a little club.

763
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: I camera what the club was, and they weren't that good.

764
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 1: To tell me the truth, Tom was fantastic. Tom was

765
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: an incredible front man, and Uh and Jeff I think

766
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: it was a good guitarist was great. But the other

767
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: two guys, I but they didn't hold up. I said, Larry,

768
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,439
Speaker 1: you know you've got someone in the front there. That's great,

769
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: but you have to replace the other two guys. And

770
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: I've heard And at the same time he gave me

771
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: Tom's I don't know how many uh demos he did.

772
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: There must have been at least seventy five demos. I

773
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 1: mean we're talking about I mean prolific writer. Um. And

774
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: I listened to the demos and I would say thirty

775
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: of those were worthy to put on an album. First album.

776
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,720
Speaker 1: So I said to Larry, put a great band together,

777
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: and I'll put I'll give you a deal, um. And

778
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: he found two other players that fitted the mold that

779
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: I think we're worthwhile for Tom to front, and I

780
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: did the deal. There was no one else involved. I mean,

781
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 1: it was almost like me doing something side unseen. But

782
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: I listened to the music that Tom was writing and

783
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: put put. I signed the band to PolyGram and got

784
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: Andy John's of all people, to to produce that album,

785
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: which was a treat in itself to say the least.

786
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: But that was that was another that's another story, um.

787
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: But anyway, that first album, I think it was nice songs. Um.

788
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: At the same time, then bon Jovis slippery, and what

789
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 1: was was was higher charts that came out literally a

790
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 1: little time after uh some people and wet and blasted

791
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: into the charts as well. So I was, you know,

792
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: I had two of the two of the top five

793
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 1: albums that I discovered. I was. I was hosh yet. Okay,

794
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: A couple of questions. Anyone ever debate the name Cinderella.

795
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: Did Keifer come with Cinderella? I think it was yeah.

796
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: I think it was yeah. I think it was Key

797
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 1: forer And and Larry, you know, And I didn't dispute.

798
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: I think I thought it was fine. I thought you

799
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: could play around with it, you could play around with

800
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: the the visuals. I mean we did on thee the

801
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: first couple of videos. They were funny, they were there

802
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 1: were you know, they were kind of like um. In fact,

803
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: I got John involved in one of the videos. Again,

804
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: this is the old MTV time when when it was

805
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: just was breaking a record, was getting on MTV and

806
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: getting on the radio, and then you're after the races. Boy,

807
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: that was the time when the jigsaw puzzle was five pieces,

808
00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: not five thousand. Well put okay, there was never really

809
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: another Cinderella album. What happened there? So they had, They

810
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 1: had nice songs, and they had the follow up, which

811
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: is that did well to an Accountmber the damn name

812
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 1: I wish I could. That was they had two really big,

813
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: big albums and then um, I left, I left Polygraphs

814
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: to run actual uh and and they they still continued

815
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: their career. John of course he went on too. He

816
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: went to the New Jersey. Okay, but a couple of questions.

817
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 1: They said that Tom lost his voices. That true, that

818
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: was probably after you were there, Probably that was, yes

819
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: he did. Yeah, I'm still friends with Tom. Tom's a

820
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: great guy. I mean, he really is a wonderful guy

821
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 1: and a real talent. And and the truth is that

822
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: we were we we locked onto the MTV hair thing

823
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: where and Tom Brady was a blueser and then he

824
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: re loved he loved Louse and the whole sort of

825
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,959
Speaker 1: the blues thing. But yes, he said he lost his voice,

826
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: his um his he had nodules on his his um

827
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: vocal cords for quite a period of time he was

828
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: living in Nashville. They told me that he said he

829
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: was afraid that he wouldn't be able to sing, but

830
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: he got them back and then he's still in a

831
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: great voice, which I'm happy about. Were you were you

832
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: still a PolyGram when they made Newton bon Jovi made

833
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 1: New Jersey. I was literally walking out the door when

834
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: he was making New Jersey. Okay, from my viewpoint, I

835
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: love Slippery when wet, but bon Jovi, in my viewpoints,

836
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: never equaled that. And I bought I even bought New

837
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: Jersey when it came out. Was disappointed. Do you have

838
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: any inside it? Once again, do you believe you were

839
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: the special sauce? What was going on? Boy? But that's

840
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: if if I thought that, then then uh, you know,

841
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: if I think that or thought that in any form

842
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: in any way, you know, then somebody shoot me in

843
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: the head for God's sake. Um. No, you know, I

844
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: was certainly intrinsic, I really was. But everyone it wasn't

845
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 1: just me. It was a company, it was Dark, it

846
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: was it was the agent, it was John himself, it

847
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: was a band, it was everything. Um. But certainly we

848
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: had a chemistry together to make Slippery as as big

849
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 1: and as good as it was. Uh. When I left,

850
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I left maybe there was a

851
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: little lack of you know, in intimacy with a label.

852
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean I can't say for sure.

853
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: Maybe John was getting a little uh bored. I mean

854
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: he's working his ass off. I mean they do it.

855
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: They were, They toured and toured, but I was there

856
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: when they started it. But I wasn't ready there when

857
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 1: they finished. I was my My next step was was

858
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: well before we get your next step? Uh, when they

859
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: would be making these records. Since you were a musician

860
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: and you have experience, to what degree did you weigh

861
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: in on the material in the studio not only say

862
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: yes or thumbs up, her thumbs down, say well, you know,

863
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: should we change this, should we try this? I actually

864
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: did uh quite a lot on on some albums, not

865
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: so much the bunge of the ones, because I was.

866
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: I was there in the studio for sure in Vancouver

867
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,959
Speaker 1: with with I mean Bruce Fairburn there was a great

868
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: was a great musician, and Bob Rockett himself as a

869
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: great musician. You know, I'd listened to certain things and

870
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:18,439
Speaker 1: they say what do you think? What do you think?

871
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: I wasn't one of the the pipe up and say I

872
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 1: think you should do this, because you know, we had

873
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: enough talent in the room to to h to know

874
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: what was best and and uh and say yes or

875
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,839
Speaker 1: no to. However, with Cinderella, I was a little more proactive,

876
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: but in both their live show and as well as

877
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: writing UM and when they to give you an insight

878
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: about live when Cinderella first went out, because their record

879
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 1: came out and they weren't really a live band yet,

880
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: and suddenly they became. They were all over MTV, they

881
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: were all over the radio, and had never done real gigs.

882
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: They played played a few club shows of Ladelphia, and

883
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 1: they went out there and I can't remember who they

884
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: went out with, but they weren't very good. And I

885
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: went back to Larry and went back to the band

886
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: and said, you have to videotape every damn show and

887
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: take them back to your back. Take to take them

888
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: back to the bus and watch these shows and ask yourself,

889
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: will you pay twenty dollars to see this band? Watch it?

890
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: You've got to watch this. And I have to say

891
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: they took it to heart, and they watched themselves and said, boy,

892
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,479
Speaker 1: I made a mistake there, that that was that that

893
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: choreography was awful. I should be doing this instead of that. UM.

894
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: So you know, they listened, So I said do that.

895
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: At the same time, you know, I'd sit down with

896
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: Tom and and in fact, um, okay, a little bit

897
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: of uh inside which which there's a song called um

898
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 1: whatever it was, but I co wrote it, and I

899
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: to take this. I said, Tom, you've got to do

900
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 1: this because this sounds better. And I co wrote a

901
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: couple of songs with Tom because I knew that sometimes

902
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: he'd ramble on a chorus or verse sorry verse at

903
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,839
Speaker 1: a B section and didn't get to the course quick enough.

904
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: So I'd worked with him on on a musical level.

905
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 1: I said, you know, he tried this, Court's try to

906
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: stepping up a fourth, etcetera, etcetera, And he was very

907
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:16,879
Speaker 1: he was very open to that and loved me being

908
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: part of that. So need did you take credit for that? No? Okay,

909
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:23,959
Speaker 1: So tell us how you end up going to add

910
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: co Well, uh, that comes a little story. So you know,

911
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: during the period of PolyGram, I had bon Jovi had

912
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: you know, I also at the same time I had

913
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,760
Speaker 1: another band, Kingdom Come, which went it blasted into the charts,

914
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: into the top five because I gave Bob Rock his

915
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:49,359
Speaker 1: first production. And you know, everyone screams and yells it's

916
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: alleged Zeppelin. You know, coffee band etcetera, et cetera. Will

917
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: you know what? It was perfect first time? And and

918
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: and the band it was it was all over the radio.

919
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 1: And at the same time I was working with Dexis

920
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: and Tiers of Fears, etcetera, and worked with some other

921
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: a couple of other bands which were ultimately successful in

922
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,919
Speaker 1: different fashions. So I guess I was hot shit as

923
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 1: they were, you know, at that time. So and I thought,

924
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm looking at the people who run

925
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: these companies, I'd like to try it. I really want

926
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: to do something like this. Um and I they PolyGram.

927
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: They said, we'll give you, We'll give you mercury, We'll

928
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: give you this to thing. And I've already done eight

929
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:34,919
Speaker 1: eight six seven years. I said, I want to try

930
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: something new. And I got wooed by Geffen, by Irving,

931
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: by by you know, all the players involved. Okay, did

932
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 1: you put it out there or did they find you? No?

933
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 1: I I decided that I was going to uh To.

934
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: I wanted to run a label, you know. I wanted

935
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: to see what it was like and to put a

936
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,839
Speaker 1: team together. Because I put the team together, I've done.

937
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: I put teams together as a band. I put teams

938
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:07,879
Speaker 1: together in working records and and and having the right

939
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: managers are the right agents. I don't wanted to see

940
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: if I can put a team together to run a company.

941
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: So I my my lawyer, Um, yeah, put it. I

942
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 1: put it out this and I said, I'm going to

943
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: resign to PolyGram. They did not want me to resign.

944
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: They offered me to be a label head of something else.

945
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:28,919
Speaker 1: And I you know, even though it would have maybe

946
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 1: a lot of money, I would have kept the points

947
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 1: for Bob Joe, the points of Cinderella, etcetera, etcetera. But

948
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: that for me, and it's this is gonna sound bizarre.

949
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: I think to a lot of people. It wasn't about

950
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 1: the money. It was about the challenge and it was

951
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: about the passion. So you know, okay, I said, I

952
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: gave up a couple of points. Okay, let me do

953
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 1: something new. It's the same thing as as I talked

954
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: to you about when I was on the road. It's

955
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: time when when it feels like I'm gonna do the

956
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 1: same thing with the same people again and like a

957
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: job and find the next Bongovi or the next syndrome

958
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: or the next No, let me try something new. So

959
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to try something new and just

960
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: to run a label was something new. So I got offered, uh,

961
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 1: you know, to run a couple of companies. But I

962
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: met was Steve Ross and Warner Music. A couple of

963
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,399
Speaker 1: times I met was Armored and Dog first and then

964
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 1: Steve Ross, and he was the one. He was one

965
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: guy that I was no suppressed by. And the reason

966
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 1: and the stories are are I can give you hundreds

967
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 1: of stories about why and what and everything else. And

968
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: that was yet the coffin. You know, they somebody around

969
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: to having dinners with hookers and dog knows what else.

970
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: That wasn't what I was. It wasn't who I was.

971
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: It was like, come on, I want to run something,

972
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: which is something for me. They didn't know who I was.

973
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,759
Speaker 1: But Steve Ross sat with me and he just come

974
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: back from the Bahamas, I think, and we talked and

975
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 1: he said he asked me what I did, what I

976
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 1: wanted to do. And they're very kind of like easy

977
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: going fashion. And again these are little little vignettes I

978
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: have in my head. We had a basket of little

979
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 1: uh raphia, you know, knickknacks, you know, like you buy

980
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: for a dollar in the Bahamas, you know, and I said,

981
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: those are cool. Where you get there? He said, I

982
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 1: just came back to the harbors for a meeting. He said,

983
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: you want one, just a little dollar thing. The fact

984
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: that you just gave me this little dollar knickknack and

985
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 1: he was it just it got to me. I thought, well,

986
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 1: that's he didn't offer me. You know the play, you know,

987
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:41,919
Speaker 1: the private jet to this. Yeah, he said, you want

988
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 1: this little dollar knicknack. And obviously you have worn in

989
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 1: music at that time, you had you know, you had Warners,

990
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: you had Electra, you had Atlantic, you know, dog and

991
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 1: Armored and uh and and but that incident and and

992
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: his vision of having entrepreneurs in the company, somebody who

993
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: could do something without being told what to do, and

994
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:09,359
Speaker 1: could make his company a profit if you like, and

995
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 1: do also do well personally financially. It was his. It

996
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: was his m O. But I love the way that

997
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: he presented what it was. Of course, with more of

998
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: these was spectacular company at that time. But that incident

999
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: in particular was one which I walked away. I thought,

1000
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: now he didn't have to do that. He could have

1001
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 1: said I'll fly you to so and so, I'll do

1002
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 1: this and not the other. But he gave me this

1003
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: little knickknack and I walked away. I thought, well, you

1004
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: know that that kind of did it for me. And

1005
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 1: so I said, I'd like to resurrect this this uh

1006
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 1: this company that has been dormant at Co Records, and

1007
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 1: and um it's a short fine. I mean, let's go

1008
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: for it. Uh. Dog was a little if you're about that,

1009
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: but that's neither hit nor there. Doug was if he wait, wait,

1010
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 1: wait that comes up. WoT Doug was if he because

1011
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,919
Speaker 1: Doug was iffy because he saw this guy come into

1012
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: this company that had that had all these successes of

1013
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: PolyGram and at the time Atlantic was it was was

1014
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: kind of like in there, they were kind of in

1015
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: a low period. And I believe I think that potentially

1016
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 1: possibly he thought I was coming in as a replacement.

1017
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: That was so far from my my, so far far

1018
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 1: from my my uh my thought process it was it

1019
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 1: was beyond belief. But I believe that he was a

1020
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: little threatened by by coming in to being a head

1021
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: of at CO alongside Atlantic Records. So um, so he

1022
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 1: was a little iffy about me taking on at CO

1023
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: company and putting a team together, etcetera, etcetera. But you know.

1024
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 1: That's that's another story which I can uh embellish, but

1025
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 1: we got along ultimately, you know, uh in the way

1026
00:58:52,440 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: that I guess one should. Okay, so you're now an AVCO.

1027
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: You have the Rembrandt, you have a hit, you have Piantera.

1028
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: So what's it like they're running your own company? The

1029
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: first okay, the first uh two or three years fantastic, amazing. Um.

1030
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 1: You know, I was given free rein um the first year.

1031
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 1: Obviously you had to build a team, and I kind

1032
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 1: of stole the best people from PolyGram because they were

1033
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: kind of like going through there there there's some maculations

1034
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 1: of being bought or wherever. Um. I got a really

1035
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: good team together. Um. I was lucky enough to have,

1036
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 1: you know, have a couple of pretty decent size hit

1037
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: straight away, um, Pantera being one. And in fact, the

1038
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: funny story about Pantera was, I was going to sign

1039
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 1: into PolyGram, but I knew that I was leaving, and

1040
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 1: so I said to the attorney at the time, who's

1041
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 1: no longer with us, can you wait until I'm whispered

1042
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: in his ear? Um, And I signed them to to

1043
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: told COO and and Pantera was was a huge hit

1044
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: out of the box and Dog and this is a

1045
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 1: story about dog. Actually, UM, he didn't know the Pantera was.

1046
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: He thought it was some kind of hip hop, he

1047
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: really did. He thought it was some kind of like

1048
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 1: is it is this a new dr Grey Um production?

1049
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: And of course it wasn't. But it was great for

1050
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: the first two or three years. Then UM in the

1051
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: fourth start of the fourth fifth year and wherever it was,

1052
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 1: I started losing. I realized I started losing perspective of

1053
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 1: what I was in it for. I came into meetings

1054
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 1: and I had my general manager. The company became bigger.

1055
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: We we we were just a rock lay we we.

1056
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: I took on the mantle of of Ruthless Records. Of

1057
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 1: all things we did, we had this a couple of

1058
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 1: very big hits on Ruthless Um, which is a hip

1059
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,439
Speaker 1: hop as you know, Ruthless Records, so Jerry Hella and

1060
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 1: it was some pop records. And I remember one thing

1061
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 1: in the particular again these little points of career, career

1062
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 1: development and why you did things ways and do things.

1063
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: I was sitting in my general manager's office and UM,

1064
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:18,959
Speaker 1: I heard the song um on the radio. UM. It's

1065
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: called Sincerely Yours by um Uh. I'm black and sorry,

1066
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 1: I'm it's a long day today. But I since, I said,

1067
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 1: I said to Harold Harry Palmer, Harry, what I like

1068
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: the song? What is this? I've heard it before and

1069
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: it looks at me like I was joking, I said.

1070
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: He said, it's hards It's no, it's it's it'sn't top

1071
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: number one. That was a turning point for me, you know.

1072
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 1: And I went home and I thought, boy, I've lost

1073
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 1: perspective of who I am. I was wearing a suit,

1074
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 1: you know, and I and I thought, I just lost

1075
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 1: I'm losing I'm losing Derek. I'm losing Derek Shulman as

1076
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: as as someone who loves music, loves being involved in

1077
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: the music business. And the last couple of years we're

1078
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: not that good. I didn't like it, and I decided

1079
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 1: to um, I decided to or quit. They didn't want

1080
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: go wait wait wait wait wait? Are we were writing history?

1081
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:24,360
Speaker 1: Didn't Doug sort of push you? He was He was

1082
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: an appreciate, big time big When I was in Russia,

1083
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 1: absolutely he offered me co chairman because he wanted Sylvia

1084
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 1: own in there as well. Buddy, I was. I was

1085
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 1: up there at the same time. Now, I've not read

1086
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 1: writing history. Um, there's a lot of intrigue going on

1087
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 1: because time Warner was was involved. But Dog was certainly, uh,

1088
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 1: very much afraid that I was, you know, doing getting

1089
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 1: in his way. He's taken he's taken a lot of

1090
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 1: he's taken a lot of power away from Bob Bargado

1091
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 1: and that team there. Um, but it kind of drifted away. Yes,

1092
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: he certainly wanted me a way out of there, but nevertheless,

1093
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 1: I had a contract that I had a company. However,

1094
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 1: at the same so it was so he we we

1095
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: met when I came back from Russia, and when it

1096
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: when I was out of the country. Um, he tried

1097
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,479
Speaker 1: to do have a coup, but it didn't quite work.

1098
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: So I came back and he said, well you could

1099
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 1: eat chair can you can eat co chairman? You've got

1100
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 1: X number of points and everything else. As a dog,

1101
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 1: I'm out of here. They kept me there for another

1102
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: year and a half actually, so I said, no, I

1103
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 1: don't want to do this. It was the same thing

1104
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,440
Speaker 1: as I did when I said, you asked me about

1105
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 1: leaving Gentle Giant. No, it was it was it was

1106
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 1: not the money. I didn't want to do it. I'm

1107
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: over see you later. So no, yes, dog was certainly

1108
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: it's dog was certainly trying to get rid of this

1109
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 1: this guy who maybe you know on the on the

1110
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: prowl to get his job. But nevertheless, um when he

1111
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 1: offered need to be the co chair of the with

1112
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 1: Sylvia and and and get lots of points and lots

1113
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 1: of money and x x x, and I said, no,

1114
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm out of here. My my attorney with apeshot at me.

1115
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: So what are you talking about? So I'm done, I'm resigning.

1116
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 1: They wouldn't let me go for a year and a

1117
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 1: half because I had a contract, so I had to

1118
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 1: literally thing there and work with Irving on on some things. Uh.

1119
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:26,800
Speaker 1: But it was really kind of like a sidecure, you know.

1120
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 1: I was not allowed to go anywhere. It's like an NBA,

1121
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 1: I feel like. But I had to be a part

1122
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: of the Water group music group. So you asked me

1123
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: how it was the first three or three and a

1124
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 1: half years, for four years or great? Last two we're awful?

1125
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: And you were working with Irving on what with giant thing? Yeah? Giant? Yeah,

1126
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 1: we we did. We did something together on a giant.

1127
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 1: I put some records together. But it was really I

1128
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 1: was really working through a contract, but I was with

1129
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: Warner Music effectively. Okay, so your contract runs out? Then

1130
01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: what then? Um? I took a time out, UM six

1131
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: months and you know again you you decide, you know

1132
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 1: what what is it you want to do? I mean running,

1133
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 1: running a big corporation and being looking at myself in

1134
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 1: the mirror with a suit and listening to something on

1135
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: the radio that I didn't didn't even know belong to us,

1136
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 1: regot to me, and I tore a suit off myself

1137
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 1: and put put shorts and T shirt back on and said,

1138
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 1: the hell, I gotta get back to big Derrek again. Um.

1139
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 1: And about six months into not sure again what to do.

1140
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 1: Thankfully I had enough to live on and we were

1141
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 1: not financially strapped, and I was living in New York,

1142
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 1: my wife and I had two kids in school and

1143
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:48,560
Speaker 1: everything else. Um. I got a call from an old friend,

1144
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: um Case Vessels at road Run Records, and he said,

1145
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 1: what are you doing? Not much? I'm deciding what to do?

1146
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 1: He said, would you mind? Um we meet And because

1147
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: I you know, I've got this label in in so

1148
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:07,919
Speaker 1: Ho we were doing. We've got a couple of good

1149
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 1: metal acts. But I'd love to see the company become

1150
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: a big label. Okay, let me see what you've got.

1151
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 1: So I I met with CASA and new case from

1152
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: from Europe. Over the years, I knew him when he

1153
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:26,040
Speaker 1: worked for our c A and and I met with him,

1154
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: and I saw him so the people in the office,

1155
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: and at a time, he was he was trying to

1156
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 1: build a label, uh, kind of an old purpose label.

1157
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: He had a dance label, he had a hip hop label.

1158
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 1: He had this and that and the other. But I

1159
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 1: looked inside of the company, there's all these kids with

1160
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 1: like tattoos and and uh and piercings and god as well,

1161
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 1: this is a rock label. That's the case. You're you're

1162
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 1: you're doing something. You're spending money on all these other things,

1163
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:54,280
Speaker 1: and you've got kids in there and who love type

1164
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 1: of negative or or or um, you know, fear factory,

1165
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 1: and you're trying to break this's hip hop stuff and

1166
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 1: and salt and pepper also or some some other thing

1167
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 1: from another dance label. Or you have to get rid

1168
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,520
Speaker 1: of things of focus on what you do best. So yeah,

1169
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 1: and I don't think he understood that he had a brand.

1170
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:17,520
Speaker 1: So I kind of h for a year. I kind

1171
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 1: of consulted under the Radar and became the consultant to

1172
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: get rid of some of the stuff that chaff from

1173
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 1: the wheat. And then it became president of road Runner

1174
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 1: Records UM. And I really enjoyed that because it was

1175
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 1: to focus on what that was and what it could be.

1176
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 1: Was was a lot of fun because it was an

1177
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 1: independent label. It wasn't run by a board of directors.

1178
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 1: We went whereas you know, Time Warner and that whole

1179
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 1: situation there was became a nignment when it was war

1180
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 1: in music group. It was great when it became Time Warner,

1181
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:56,000
Speaker 1: which again is another story entirely. That's when the dog

1182
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 1: thing and Markota were and Fuchs and everything else became

1183
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 1: became a best But this is the whole thing, a

1184
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 1: new independent company that was run by this guy at

1185
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 1: Case Vessel as he wanted it be to be a

1186
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 1: big powerful label, but to keep it's uh, it's um

1187
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 1: to keep whatever he had. I don't think he even

1188
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:18,040
Speaker 1: knew what he had, because his love was more a

1189
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:23,120
Speaker 1: Wagner than than a cold chamber or and or you know, slipknot.

1190
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 1: He hated that stuff. But I saw what he had

1191
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:28,759
Speaker 1: in the company and the people who were who he tired,

1192
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 1: and I said, this is what you got to do.

1193
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 1: Focus on what you do best. So I became president

1194
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:37,360
Speaker 1: of road Runner and it was a great time. How

1195
01:08:37,400 --> 01:08:39,719
Speaker 1: did you signed slip Not or was slip Not already signed?

1196
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 1: No slip and I was a signed. What I did

1197
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,559
Speaker 1: was was again number one, move away from the stuff

1198
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 1: that he he thought could make a popular company popular

1199
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:51,679
Speaker 1: and focus on what was best. And the people there

1200
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,719
Speaker 1: were great, They were fantastic. They were really passionate people,

1201
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 1: passionately because it would work twenty four hours to seven

1202
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:01,600
Speaker 1: to get the rock stuff gone. Um. I think the

1203
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 1: biggest breakthrough, yes it was was number one getting cole

1204
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 1: Chamber and Fear Factory to a different level. Uh. There

1205
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 1: were bands that had already been signed by Monty Connor,

1206
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 1: you know, and it was a great A and R guy,

1207
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 1: and there's some very good people in there. But I

1208
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:19,919
Speaker 1: brought in a guy called Dave A Lonco from Marcia

1209
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 1: as a head of promotion because promotions still mait meant

1210
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: something in those days radio promotion. Um. And and then

1211
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 1: I think that Monty and myself brought in Monty brought

1212
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:35,679
Speaker 1: in a slip Knot together with me, But I knew

1213
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:37,720
Speaker 1: when I saw Slip Not play, he said, what do

1214
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 1: you think? I thought. I looked at them and I

1215
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 1: felt the same way as they did with pan Terra.

1216
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 1: I knew they had him. They were never going to

1217
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:47,600
Speaker 1: be on MTV, they were never gonna be on on

1218
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:50,679
Speaker 1: the radio, but boy they could play the fans all

1219
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 1: over the damn world. They were. They were purely fan based,

1220
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 1: you know. I said, this is the band we're going

1221
01:09:56,960 --> 01:09:58,559
Speaker 1: to spend all lout the money on. This is a

1222
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 1: green light band. And of course it went. The first

1223
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 1: album went to the races, it became huge, and that

1224
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 1: made the company, I can in serve respects, made the

1225
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 1: company take a big step into the big mainstream of

1226
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 1: rock label, sort of independent rock label. And then the

1227
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 1: biggest next step if you like, and then probably the

1228
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 1: probably the worst step and the best step again was

1229
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:31,520
Speaker 1: uh spreading the the spreading the core from the hardcore

1230
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 1: metal world into a more kind of um melodic, bigger label.

1231
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:42,880
Speaker 1: And in that respect, why I signed, why I brought

1232
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 1: in Dave Lanco as it had a promotion, was to

1233
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 1: get some of the bands that we had signed on

1234
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:52,680
Speaker 1: the radio. For instance, um Uh Fear Factor did a

1235
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 1: song called cars and they got on the radio, type

1236
01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:58,360
Speaker 1: of negative, got a song on the radio. But we signed.

1237
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:03,800
Speaker 1: I signed a band called Nickelback. Uh. Ron Berman had

1238
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:06,599
Speaker 1: brought in several tapes and nickel Back was one of them.

1239
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 1: And I kept listening to this song UH on the

1240
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:13,679
Speaker 1: first album and I kept playing and I kept playing.

1241
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 1: I said, this guy is a great writer. Who who

1242
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 1: the is it? And Ron saidness, a guy put Chad

1243
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:21,280
Speaker 1: Kroeber and he's got a brother and it's a band

1244
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:24,440
Speaker 1: called Nickelback. And I said, let tell me about them.

1245
01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 1: So he told me about that when we when to

1246
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 1: see them in Vancouver. UM and they were fantastic writers,

1247
01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 1: and we we signed them and the first album UH

1248
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:42,599
Speaker 1: was had had the black Again. I'm sorry, I'm lacking

1249
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:45,920
Speaker 1: on on tracks and everything else. The first album did

1250
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 1: very well with that with the first track that we

1251
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:50,639
Speaker 1: put out, you know Day was able to get tons

1252
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 1: of airplay, and and then they put together the second album,

1253
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:58,679
Speaker 1: which is again another milestone in I guess my career.

1254
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 1: If you're like Silver Side Up with how You Remind Me?

1255
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:04,680
Speaker 1: When you hear that song how You Remind Me? I

1256
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:07,320
Speaker 1: knew as soon as I heard that that was going

1257
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:10,800
Speaker 1: to be an absolute home run smash, no matter who

1258
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 1: did it, how how how it was done, and of

1259
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 1: course Dave got it to the top of the charts

1260
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:18,720
Speaker 1: and Nickelback became massive. It made a lot of money

1261
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 1: for the label, and and it became something of a

1262
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:28,320
Speaker 1: millstone round cases neck and perhaps mind because unfortunately Case,

1263
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:31,439
Speaker 1: having just seen been part of a little company that

1264
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 1: did look very well in a little world, suddenly open

1265
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:39,559
Speaker 1: up to become a gigantic uh label that took a

1266
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:43,160
Speaker 1: lot of income, and he wanted more of it. And

1267
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:45,800
Speaker 1: those kind of albums and those kind of songs come

1268
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:49,559
Speaker 1: along once every ten years, they don't come along every

1269
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 1: damn six minutes. Uh So trying to look for the

1270
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 1: next one and spending money to do that, it was

1271
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:04,120
Speaker 1: the wrong direction for the company. And ultimately I it

1272
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:06,719
Speaker 1: wasn't right for me, It wasn't right for Case and

1273
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 1: he the company became There was a lot of things

1274
01:13:10,080 --> 01:13:12,960
Speaker 1: that happened to the company and that put me off

1275
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:15,719
Speaker 1: being part of it because he was going he didn't

1276
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:20,680
Speaker 1: he did. He made a mistake in Europe by um

1277
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:24,160
Speaker 1: putting in the company in in a financial scrap in

1278
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 1: North America, and that stopped me being able to do

1279
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:30,040
Speaker 1: what I could do in North America. I said, case,

1280
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 1: this is not gonna work. So again I said, I

1281
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 1: can't do this anymore. And and he took he had

1282
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 1: to sell the company. Uh and you know it a

1283
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:42,600
Speaker 1: fairly good profit, but certainly not what he was what

1284
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:45,400
Speaker 1: he should have been worth when it was done. So

1285
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 1: that was that was the roadrunner world and the road

1286
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 1: running days, which are great for the most part, really were,

1287
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 1: they were fantastic. And since then I've been kind of consulting, uh,

1288
01:13:56,479 --> 01:13:59,640
Speaker 1: you know, various labels and and and dialing about and

1289
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 1: and doodling and becoming an all fart. Okay, why does

1290
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:07,720
Speaker 1: everybody hate Nickelback? I I think it's. To tell you

1291
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:09,800
Speaker 1: this truth, I don't think they do. I think it's

1292
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 1: a guilty pleasure for most people. But I think that

1293
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 1: it's it's the it's the incarnation of corporate rock, as

1294
01:14:16,280 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 1: we all know and you know what, yes, it is,

1295
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 1: but you know, so is a lot. I mean, I

1296
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:25,719
Speaker 1: think corporate rock is you know, corporate corporate rock is

1297
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:31,200
Speaker 1: is um is part of what we're doing. Look, corporate

1298
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:34,240
Speaker 1: rock is everywhere. I mean, I think TikTok and YouTube

1299
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,200
Speaker 1: and everything else's corporate rock. As well, So I think

1300
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 1: it became the it became the sort of target for

1301
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:45,519
Speaker 1: for all things that were bad. There were the man

1302
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 1: if you like, which, which of course it was to

1303
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:51,920
Speaker 1: a certain degree. But nevertheless, uh, it certainly was not

1304
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:54,720
Speaker 1: something that people disliked when they bought it. And they're

1305
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 1: not a band that people don't didn't didn't not like

1306
01:14:57,920 --> 01:14:59,760
Speaker 1: when they were going. And it's still you know, there's

1307
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:03,880
Speaker 1: still around, and they still write good songs and and

1308
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:08,600
Speaker 1: it's it's it's funny because when I was there, they

1309
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:11,960
Speaker 1: weren't the sort of target of of being the most

1310
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 1: uncol band of the world. You know. It's the same

1311
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:17,160
Speaker 1: as bon Jovi's the most uncool guy in the world,

1312
01:15:17,439 --> 01:15:21,120
Speaker 1: you know, so like he cares. You know, uncool doesn't

1313
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 1: mean anything, doesn't mean ship. You know. Sorry, I don't

1314
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:27,160
Speaker 1: believe in cool, were uncool? I believe in and And

1315
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 1: the first thing is do what you do, do what

1316
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:32,200
Speaker 1: you do best, and if it works, it works, if

1317
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:34,599
Speaker 1: it's done done. Okay. Wait, I just got in here

1318
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 1: that you don't believe in what being uncool or cool? Okay, Okay, Now,

1319
01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:43,639
Speaker 1: while people with this turn of the century, that's when

1320
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:47,200
Speaker 1: how you remind me came out two thousand one two

1321
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 1: was really big. Uh. While all this was going on,

1322
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:53,759
Speaker 1: we all the crazy you know, all the corporate stuff

1323
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:57,240
Speaker 1: happened in the nineties with Warner etcetera. But then we

1324
01:15:57,280 --> 01:16:01,559
Speaker 1: have the disruption of Napster. Everybody's bit about stealing music

1325
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:07,240
Speaker 1: and everyone's bitching about Nickelback, but they don't realize that

1326
01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:11,559
Speaker 1: hip hop is dominating the internet correct, and hip hop

1327
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:14,280
Speaker 1: gave it away for free with mixtapes, and hip hop

1328
01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:18,200
Speaker 1: was on SoundCloud, such that if the turn of the decade,

1329
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:22,680
Speaker 1: when streaming really becomes big with Spotify, suddenly it's all

1330
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:27,559
Speaker 1: hip hop. Okay. As someone who has made his bones

1331
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:31,840
Speaker 1: and really understands rock, A, is there a future for rock?

1332
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:34,920
Speaker 1: Is there a place for rock today? And be does

1333
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:37,960
Speaker 1: it have to be adjusted to regain market shure to

1334
01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 1: use a corporate term. Well, is there a market for rock? Yes,

1335
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 1: of course there is. I mean all these big festivals

1336
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:48,800
Speaker 1: all over the world which are nonexistent right now. Of

1337
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:51,679
Speaker 1: course in this say and age, um, they're all headlined

1338
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:55,040
Speaker 1: by rock bands. However, you know, these are rock bands

1339
01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:58,160
Speaker 1: that made their made their mark in the seventies, So

1340
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 1: I mean they're gonna be dying soon. Um, so yes,

1341
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,080
Speaker 1: it's a it's a gigantic marketplace. I don't think the

1342
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:08,120
Speaker 1: hip hop world and the pop world and the YouTube

1343
01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:11,720
Speaker 1: world and the TikTok world can confill that gap. But

1344
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:16,479
Speaker 1: certainly as far as a live uh music business is concerned,

1345
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:21,640
Speaker 1: it's it's it's rock driven, of course it is. But nevertheless,

1346
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:25,200
Speaker 1: on the on a different level, you'd be surprised. And

1347
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:30,160
Speaker 1: I I'm surprised and and and I'm surprised that the

1348
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:33,840
Speaker 1: world of hip hop um is actually a lot more

1349
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:39,160
Speaker 1: musical and musically musically diverse then most other world, most

1350
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:42,040
Speaker 1: out of a business is concerned. And I'll give you

1351
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:45,200
Speaker 1: a case in point. Um. I just had a gold

1352
01:17:45,200 --> 01:17:47,519
Speaker 1: record presented to me by a band called Ron the

1353
01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: Jewels um who who have has a song which is

1354
01:17:53,040 --> 01:17:55,280
Speaker 1: a song called Legend has It which is the least

1355
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:59,679
Speaker 1: song on Black Panther. They sampled one of gentle giant songs.

1356
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:05,040
Speaker 1: And that world has gone back to listening to some

1357
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:07,640
Speaker 1: of the music which was authentic. I guess the seventies

1358
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:11,720
Speaker 1: Prague music believe it or not common and and the

1359
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:14,920
Speaker 1: guys and roots, they're all fans of music, rock music

1360
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:18,160
Speaker 1: of the seventies and and progressive music. Actually, that's anit

1361
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,599
Speaker 1: very interesting fact. That very is very interesting sidebar that

1362
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 1: I don't think, no, not, not many people know about.

1363
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:29,599
Speaker 1: They're the most musically interested and interesting people that are

1364
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:33,519
Speaker 1: around actually in some respects. So to ask you the

1365
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 1: question about rock being a viable of course it is

1366
01:18:36,240 --> 01:18:38,760
Speaker 1: right now, it isn't because it's it's all about live

1367
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:41,880
Speaker 1: and as far as streaming is concerned, you know, I

1368
01:18:41,960 --> 01:18:44,600
Speaker 1: see that people are piste off that they're not not

1369
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:48,639
Speaker 1: streaming and and and there, and Spotify is uh dining

1370
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:52,839
Speaker 1: a legg is becoming this vilified kind of guy. That's bullshit.

1371
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:55,599
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you know, it's it's silly, you know what,

1372
01:18:55,680 --> 01:18:58,759
Speaker 1: you know, because back in the day, I was thinking

1373
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:01,160
Speaker 1: when I was reading about all the stuff people complaining

1374
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:04,439
Speaker 1: that he's he's a greedy funk and all that stuff,

1375
01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:07,840
Speaker 1: you know. And I'll go back to the my my

1376
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:11,599
Speaker 1: beginnings in the in the music business when I first

1377
01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:14,479
Speaker 1: got a deal, and this is I'm gonna take myself

1378
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:19,599
Speaker 1: all the way back now to sixty seven um as

1379
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:22,679
Speaker 1: Simon for in the Big Sounds. We were we had

1380
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:25,439
Speaker 1: a great following, we were playing our assets off, we played,

1381
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:29,240
Speaker 1: We played triples and quadruples if you've heard of them.

1382
01:19:29,320 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 1: You played an afternoon show, you played an evening show,

1383
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:35,360
Speaker 1: you played a long nighter, and then you literally do

1384
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:38,559
Speaker 1: these these shows all over the country, all over all

1385
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:42,040
Speaker 1: over the UK and in in Europe too, and you

1386
01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:45,320
Speaker 1: became pretty damn good at what you did. You know

1387
01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 1: you if you didn't and you didn't become the band um.

1388
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:50,920
Speaker 1: And then we got a record deal and our record

1389
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:53,479
Speaker 1: our record deal, and our record deal was based on

1390
01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:57,120
Speaker 1: a demo which was sent up to E m I.

1391
01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:00,120
Speaker 1: So E m I invited us up to eat who

1392
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:03,800
Speaker 1: there to Abbey Road and we had to do a

1393
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:07,560
Speaker 1: full set on stage at Abbey Road with the producers

1394
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:12,320
Speaker 1: including George Martin, Nori Paramore, etcetera, etcetera, all the producers

1395
01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:15,760
Speaker 1: looking at us sitting there like this. We had to

1396
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:18,280
Speaker 1: do our full charms crossed for those uh in the

1397
01:20:18,439 --> 01:20:23,080
Speaker 1: non video arms crossed, and we did the full set

1398
01:20:23,160 --> 01:20:26,439
Speaker 1: of Simony for the big sound set and low and behold,

1399
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:28,519
Speaker 1: we gotta set, we gotta deal a record deal. But

1400
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:33,360
Speaker 1: the record deals one single and that was a record deal,

1401
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:37,599
Speaker 1: you know, and one single came out. We were fortunate

1402
01:20:37,680 --> 01:20:39,439
Speaker 1: enough to have it hit the lower parts of the

1403
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:42,519
Speaker 1: top four, so we did another record. But the record

1404
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 1: deals in those days, they were an album deals. There

1405
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:47,160
Speaker 1: were one singles. I don't think that back beatles had

1406
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 1: a record deal. I think there was a one single

1407
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:53,439
Speaker 1: deal that Love Me Do. That was it. So I

1408
01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:55,759
Speaker 1: mean back in the day, it was about the singles,

1409
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:58,679
Speaker 1: and we did singles. So and that's how we built

1410
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:02,599
Speaker 1: our built our fan based our reputation. The album thing

1411
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:04,680
Speaker 1: was a whole different animal. That was the seventies. But

1412
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,840
Speaker 1: the sixties were all about record deals. And even bands

1413
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 1: like Deep Purple, who was yeah there were Me and

1414
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:14,479
Speaker 1: Gylan and Roger Glover were in a Bad Episode six.

1415
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:18,599
Speaker 1: They did singles. You know, you can the idol racer

1416
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:21,360
Speaker 1: Robert Plant was in the band of Joy. They did singles,

1417
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:24,000
Speaker 1: you know. So all these bands that that was the

1418
01:21:24,080 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 1: day when you did singles and you were lucky to

1419
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:28,960
Speaker 1: get a deal, And that was that's how you got

1420
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:30,880
Speaker 1: a deal. You did a whole set in front of

1421
01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:32,720
Speaker 1: these producers and you were lucky to get a deal.

1422
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 1: So now I'm looking at these people saying three or

1423
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:41,120
Speaker 1: four years for an album, etcetera, etcetera. Okay, you know,

1424
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:43,639
Speaker 1: I understand I did albums too, but you know what

1425
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:50,320
Speaker 1: it is. What again, I'll quote our our favorite uh,

1426
01:21:50,360 --> 01:21:52,400
Speaker 1: our favorite guy who was sitting in the way up.

1427
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 1: It is what it is, um, and then that's that's ironic,

1428
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:59,040
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm sorry, that's a bit of irony

1429
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:02,880
Speaker 1: for it. You know, UM, it is about the song.

1430
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:09,240
Speaker 1: It is about what it is, and and it's today's

1431
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:11,639
Speaker 1: world and not not not the last years or last

1432
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:14,760
Speaker 1: last months, or or ten or fifteen twenty years ago.

1433
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:19,920
Speaker 1: And I do have sometimes a problem in talking to

1434
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:24,320
Speaker 1: someone of those of those periods that and they have

1435
01:22:24,360 --> 01:22:27,599
Speaker 1: all these golden platinum albums on their walls and saying

1436
01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:30,559
Speaker 1: that's not going to happen anymore. It's over. You will

1437
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:35,360
Speaker 1: not have those anymore, and they're they're there, there's you know,

1438
01:22:35,479 --> 01:22:39,439
Speaker 1: they're shrugging their shoulders, thinking why because that's that that

1439
01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:43,360
Speaker 1: was then and this is now. You know, it's it's

1440
01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:47,680
Speaker 1: it's it's a bizarre twist. But the weirdest twist for

1441
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:55,639
Speaker 1: me is having these hip hop UH musicians marketing back

1442
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:59,280
Speaker 1: to music which they thought was was relevant and authentic.

1443
01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:01,639
Speaker 1: And I just got a gold record, as I said,

1444
01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:05,679
Speaker 1: from Round the Jewels, UH was you know with Killer

1445
01:23:05,720 --> 01:23:08,800
Speaker 1: Mike and and LP, they're they're huge fans of mine

1446
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:11,760
Speaker 1: and this bizarre not of what I've done with bon

1447
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:15,320
Speaker 1: Jovio Pantera, but my as a musician, and that's the

1448
01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:19,160
Speaker 1: key to it. Well, that brings us full circle literally,

1449
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:23,719
Speaker 1: starting with the General Giant, ending up with General Giant. Listen,

1450
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:26,599
Speaker 1: this has been so informative. You tell a great story.

1451
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:29,599
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for doing this, Derek so much. Are

1452
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:31,360
Speaker 1: you Bob? It's great to see you again as well.

1453
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:34,320
Speaker 1: Until next time. This is Bob left side