1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:23,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, Welcome back to our new 2 00:00:23,196 --> 00:00:25,836 Speaker 1: season on How to Get Unstuck in twenty twenty six. 3 00:00:26,556 --> 00:00:29,596 Speaker 1: Over the past few episodes, we've been exploring different ways 4 00:00:29,636 --> 00:00:32,356 Speaker 1: to get back on track in the new year, rethinking 5 00:00:32,356 --> 00:00:34,596 Speaker 1: how we spend our energy, learning how to deal with 6 00:00:34,676 --> 00:00:38,356 Speaker 1: unexpected changes, and getting clearer on our values and what 7 00:00:38,356 --> 00:00:41,436 Speaker 1: we really want in life. I hope these conversations have 8 00:00:41,556 --> 00:00:44,036 Speaker 1: already given you a few new tools for the year ahead. 9 00:00:44,596 --> 00:00:47,116 Speaker 1: But buckle up, because, out of all the episodes we've 10 00:00:47,156 --> 00:00:50,596 Speaker 1: had so far in this series, today's conversation has challenged 11 00:00:50,676 --> 00:00:54,316 Speaker 1: my assumptions about getting unstuck the most. Today we're diving 12 00:00:54,356 --> 00:00:58,276 Speaker 1: into the question of creativity, and more specifically, the stories 13 00:00:58,316 --> 00:01:01,556 Speaker 1: we tell ourselves about how creative ideas are supposed to happen. 14 00:01:01,956 --> 00:01:06,196 Speaker 2: Think inside the box, use those constraints to your advantage. 15 00:01:06,716 --> 00:01:09,476 Speaker 1: Today's guest will argue that nearly everything we have imagine 16 00:01:09,516 --> 00:01:12,036 Speaker 1: about generating creative ideas is wrong. 17 00:01:12,276 --> 00:01:13,436 Speaker 3: My name's George Newman. 18 00:01:13,636 --> 00:01:17,596 Speaker 2: I'm a professor of organizational behavior at the Rotman School 19 00:01:17,596 --> 00:01:20,636 Speaker 2: of Management. It's a University of Toronto. My book is 20 00:01:20,676 --> 00:01:25,236 Speaker 2: called How Great Ideas Happen? The Hidden Steps behind breakthrough success. 21 00:01:25,916 --> 00:01:27,596 Speaker 1: George and I are about to unpack some of the 22 00:01:27,636 --> 00:01:30,956 Speaker 1: most common myths we have about creativity, and we'll learn 23 00:01:31,076 --> 00:01:34,076 Speaker 1: just how important rethinking these assumptions will be for getting 24 00:01:34,156 --> 00:01:37,516 Speaker 1: unstuck that happiness lab. We'll be right back after some 25 00:01:37,636 --> 00:01:55,516 Speaker 1: quick ads. Creativity expert George Newman and I go way back. 26 00:01:56,236 --> 00:01:57,436 Speaker 1: This is such a treat to be able to talk 27 00:01:57,476 --> 00:01:59,596 Speaker 1: to you, George, because you know, as you know, we've 28 00:01:59,636 --> 00:02:00,356 Speaker 1: known each other for. 29 00:02:00,236 --> 00:02:00,996 Speaker 4: A long time. 30 00:02:01,076 --> 00:02:04,836 Speaker 3: I know, so like it was two. 31 00:02:04,516 --> 00:02:08,236 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Before he joined the University of Toronto, 32 00:02:08,556 --> 00:02:11,436 Speaker 1: George was a PhD student at Yale. But George has 33 00:02:11,476 --> 00:02:14,876 Speaker 1: been thinking about creativity long before his academic career began. 34 00:02:15,356 --> 00:02:17,116 Speaker 3: Both my parents are musicians. 35 00:02:17,596 --> 00:02:19,916 Speaker 2: My brother was a musician too, and I thought I 36 00:02:19,956 --> 00:02:22,396 Speaker 2: was going to be a visual artist. So I've kind 37 00:02:22,396 --> 00:02:26,356 Speaker 2: of had this lifelong interest in creativity that was like 38 00:02:26,716 --> 00:02:30,436 Speaker 2: a big topic of conversation around the dinner table, really 39 00:02:30,436 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 2: talking about like composers and different musicians. And then when 40 00:02:33,996 --> 00:02:37,556 Speaker 2: I became a psychologist and got interested in cognitive science, 41 00:02:37,796 --> 00:02:39,956 Speaker 2: it seems like a really natural progression to say, oh, well, 42 00:02:40,076 --> 00:02:43,316 Speaker 2: can I study this thing that I've been interested in forever? 43 00:02:43,716 --> 00:02:44,756 Speaker 3: And try to make sense out of it. 44 00:02:45,196 --> 00:02:47,756 Speaker 1: One way it made sense of things is to define things, 45 00:02:47,796 --> 00:02:50,236 Speaker 1: which may be an impossible task with creativity. But how 46 00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:51,876 Speaker 1: do you define creativity? What is it? 47 00:02:52,436 --> 00:02:56,476 Speaker 2: The definition I like is the process of generating new 48 00:02:56,516 --> 00:03:01,636 Speaker 2: and useful ideas. I think everybody associates creativity with newness 49 00:03:01,676 --> 00:03:06,756 Speaker 2: and novelty, but the useful part is really interesting, because 50 00:03:07,196 --> 00:03:08,836 Speaker 2: you know, it's not just newness for its own. 51 00:03:08,876 --> 00:03:09,076 Speaker 4: Say. 52 00:03:09,756 --> 00:03:14,156 Speaker 2: The idea about creativity is finding these ideas that provide 53 00:03:14,236 --> 00:03:18,196 Speaker 2: value to people. And that value could be entertainment, or 54 00:03:18,236 --> 00:03:20,956 Speaker 2: it could connect with us emotionally, but it could also 55 00:03:20,996 --> 00:03:25,796 Speaker 2: be things like new scientific theories, or new inventions, or new. 56 00:03:25,756 --> 00:03:26,676 Speaker 3: Kinds of technology. 57 00:03:26,756 --> 00:03:29,516 Speaker 2: So it's a really broad definition that I think captures 58 00:03:29,996 --> 00:03:32,876 Speaker 2: what this more general process really is. 59 00:03:33,636 --> 00:03:35,756 Speaker 1: I love that definition because this whole series is about 60 00:03:35,756 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 1: getting unstuck. And I think sometimes when we think about 61 00:03:38,636 --> 00:03:41,836 Speaker 1: creativity or getting unstuck when it comes to the creative process, 62 00:03:41,836 --> 00:03:44,236 Speaker 1: we think about some artist or an inventor, you know, 63 00:03:44,316 --> 00:03:46,476 Speaker 1: sitting there trying to get unstuck. But I think for 64 00:03:46,516 --> 00:03:49,356 Speaker 1: so many of us we can get stuck creatively for 65 00:03:49,516 --> 00:03:52,036 Speaker 1: very seemingly much more mundane things like what am I 66 00:03:52,076 --> 00:03:53,836 Speaker 1: going to cook for dinner tonight, or you know, what's 67 00:03:53,836 --> 00:03:56,236 Speaker 1: a new idea at work. All of us have these 68 00:03:56,236 --> 00:03:58,876 Speaker 1: moments of generating new ideas that we hope are effective. 69 00:03:59,076 --> 00:04:02,556 Speaker 2: Totally, there's this kind of like association of creativity as 70 00:04:02,956 --> 00:04:05,276 Speaker 2: it's messy or it involves finger paint or you've got 71 00:04:05,316 --> 00:04:08,156 Speaker 2: to put on a smock. But absolutely creativity applies in 72 00:04:08,236 --> 00:04:10,596 Speaker 2: all of these different context right. It could be a 73 00:04:10,596 --> 00:04:13,036 Speaker 2: new way of folding your laundry, or a new way 74 00:04:13,076 --> 00:04:16,796 Speaker 2: of cooking your favorite recipe, or actually, the last example 75 00:04:16,796 --> 00:04:19,236 Speaker 2: in the book is this guy Dan Pashman who wanted 76 00:04:19,276 --> 00:04:22,156 Speaker 2: to come up with a better type of pasta, and 77 00:04:22,196 --> 00:04:24,276 Speaker 2: so that can be a form of creativity as well. 78 00:04:24,876 --> 00:04:26,436 Speaker 1: So it seems like we have these miss when it 79 00:04:26,476 --> 00:04:28,516 Speaker 1: comes to creativity. One is that it's kind of this 80 00:04:28,716 --> 00:04:30,436 Speaker 1: big thing. You know, I have to make a painting, 81 00:04:30,556 --> 00:04:32,716 Speaker 1: or I have to do something really incredible and invent a 82 00:04:32,756 --> 00:04:35,516 Speaker 1: new technology or so on. But another myth you talk 83 00:04:35,556 --> 00:04:38,596 Speaker 1: about is how we often think of where creativity comes from. 84 00:04:38,956 --> 00:04:40,796 Speaker 1: What's our usual way of thinking about it, and why 85 00:04:40,876 --> 00:04:41,636 Speaker 1: is it problematic? 86 00:04:42,396 --> 00:04:46,436 Speaker 2: Well, I think the common wisdom about creativity is that 87 00:04:46,476 --> 00:04:49,316 Speaker 2: it's something that comes from inside of us, and there's 88 00:04:49,356 --> 00:04:52,636 Speaker 2: this genius myth that there's this lone genius and you're 89 00:04:52,636 --> 00:04:54,596 Speaker 2: going to go off into the cabin and wait for 90 00:04:54,716 --> 00:04:57,916 Speaker 2: that light bulb moment where that brilliant idea kind of 91 00:04:57,956 --> 00:05:02,156 Speaker 2: just springs forth from within. And it's also kind of 92 00:05:02,236 --> 00:05:06,316 Speaker 2: how arriving at an idea might feel to us sometimes, 93 00:05:06,316 --> 00:05:08,516 Speaker 2: where it just hits you like a lightning bolt and 94 00:05:08,556 --> 00:05:11,036 Speaker 2: the shower. But what I argue in the book is 95 00:05:11,156 --> 00:05:14,836 Speaker 2: actually creativity is much more like a process of discovery 96 00:05:15,236 --> 00:05:18,116 Speaker 2: than doing careful work to kind of uncover something that 97 00:05:18,476 --> 00:05:19,916 Speaker 2: is going to be new and useful. 98 00:05:20,956 --> 00:05:22,476 Speaker 1: So in the book, you go through all these pieces 99 00:05:22,516 --> 00:05:25,876 Speaker 1: of evidence against this isolated genius light bulb idea, and 100 00:05:25,956 --> 00:05:27,596 Speaker 1: one of the ones I found most interesting was this 101 00:05:27,676 --> 00:05:29,876 Speaker 1: idea of hot streaks. What are hot streaks and why 102 00:05:29,876 --> 00:05:32,276 Speaker 1: do they show that creativity doesn't work in a lot 103 00:05:32,276 --> 00:05:33,596 Speaker 1: of the ways we often think. 104 00:05:34,116 --> 00:05:38,196 Speaker 2: It's a super fascinating research DaShan Wang at Northwestern and 105 00:05:38,236 --> 00:05:42,956 Speaker 2: his colleagues have found that across a lot of different fields. 106 00:05:42,996 --> 00:05:47,716 Speaker 2: So in science, filmmakers artists experience these moments in their 107 00:05:47,756 --> 00:05:51,196 Speaker 2: careers where they generate their kind of most impactful work 108 00:05:51,356 --> 00:05:54,836 Speaker 2: all at once. And they're short lived, but there seems 109 00:05:54,876 --> 00:05:58,036 Speaker 2: to be this flurry of activity. And what he finds 110 00:05:58,036 --> 00:06:01,716 Speaker 2: in his work is that those periods of hot streak 111 00:06:01,796 --> 00:06:05,556 Speaker 2: moment are actually preceded by a lot of exploration. So 112 00:06:05,996 --> 00:06:08,516 Speaker 2: these creators and lots of different disciplines are kind of 113 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:11,996 Speaker 2: poking around, trying out lots of different things before boom, 114 00:06:12,116 --> 00:06:14,276 Speaker 2: you know, they hit on that one idea that they're 115 00:06:14,316 --> 00:06:16,676 Speaker 2: able to mine and refine further. 116 00:06:17,036 --> 00:06:19,516 Speaker 1: Do you have any favorite examples of these hot streaks. 117 00:06:19,956 --> 00:06:22,596 Speaker 2: One of my favorite is Jackson Pollock, you know, the 118 00:06:22,756 --> 00:06:26,956 Speaker 2: artist known for his drip paintings and splattering paint on canvas. 119 00:06:27,236 --> 00:06:30,956 Speaker 2: Those iconic Pollock works really came from a very short 120 00:06:31,156 --> 00:06:34,756 Speaker 2: period of time, only about three years, and that's really 121 00:06:35,156 --> 00:06:37,916 Speaker 2: produced a lot of the work that we recognize. 122 00:06:38,156 --> 00:06:40,036 Speaker 1: I feel like every modern art museum I've go to 123 00:06:40,156 --> 00:06:42,116 Speaker 1: has like a bunch of these splatter paintings that it 124 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:43,836 Speaker 1: was just like three years of his time where he 125 00:06:43,916 --> 00:06:44,236 Speaker 1: did these. 126 00:06:44,836 --> 00:06:45,796 Speaker 3: It was just three years. 127 00:06:45,836 --> 00:06:49,516 Speaker 2: And the notion there is that through exploration, Pollock kind 128 00:06:49,516 --> 00:06:52,676 Speaker 2: of hit on this much deeper principle that he. 129 00:06:52,756 --> 00:06:55,476 Speaker 3: Was able to explore and then exploit. 130 00:06:55,916 --> 00:06:58,996 Speaker 1: You've also talked about this idea of parallel discovery. Explain 131 00:06:59,036 --> 00:07:01,116 Speaker 1: this phenomenon why it also kind of goes against this 132 00:07:01,196 --> 00:07:03,756 Speaker 1: idea of these isolated genius moments. 133 00:07:04,116 --> 00:07:07,556 Speaker 2: This is a super interesting phenomenon. And actually I was 134 00:07:07,596 --> 00:07:09,796 Speaker 2: like shocked when I found this paper from over one 135 00:07:09,836 --> 00:07:13,756 Speaker 2: hundred years ago that was talking about parallel discovery and 136 00:07:13,836 --> 00:07:19,156 Speaker 2: cataloging just hundreds of instances in which scientists and artists 137 00:07:19,156 --> 00:07:22,156 Speaker 2: and across a lot of different fields had hit upon 138 00:07:22,356 --> 00:07:26,276 Speaker 2: very similar ideas at the exact same time, and so 139 00:07:26,876 --> 00:07:29,956 Speaker 2: kind of challenging this genius myth that oh, I'm just 140 00:07:30,276 --> 00:07:33,356 Speaker 2: discovering things come from within, the fact that multiple people 141 00:07:33,396 --> 00:07:35,996 Speaker 2: can arrive at the same idea at the very same 142 00:07:36,036 --> 00:07:38,596 Speaker 2: time suggests they're actually finding their way to something that's 143 00:07:38,636 --> 00:07:39,276 Speaker 2: outside of them. 144 00:07:39,716 --> 00:07:41,876 Speaker 1: I can't help but jump in and nerdily share one 145 00:07:41,916 --> 00:07:45,916 Speaker 1: of my favorite examples of parallel discovery. On March twelfth, 146 00:07:45,996 --> 00:07:49,636 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty one, the cartoonist Hank Ketchum debuted what would 147 00:07:49,636 --> 00:07:53,876 Speaker 1: become the famous syndicated comic strip Dennis the Menace, illustrating 148 00:07:53,916 --> 00:07:56,476 Speaker 1: the adventures of a young boy who was constantly getting 149 00:07:56,516 --> 00:08:00,476 Speaker 1: into trouble. But on that very same day, the British 150 00:08:00,476 --> 00:08:03,556 Speaker 1: cartoonist David Law debuted his own new comic in a 151 00:08:03,676 --> 00:08:07,556 Speaker 1: UK newspaper, and that comic was also about an adventurous 152 00:08:07,596 --> 00:08:10,956 Speaker 1: young boy, and it was also titled Dennis the Menace? 153 00:08:11,436 --> 00:08:14,356 Speaker 1: Is that crazy or what? George's book is filled with 154 00:08:14,436 --> 00:08:17,476 Speaker 1: stories like these ones that show there's lots of great 155 00:08:17,476 --> 00:08:20,636 Speaker 1: ideas out there just waiting for you, me, or whatever 156 00:08:20,716 --> 00:08:23,836 Speaker 1: cartoonist happens to be paying attention to find them. So 157 00:08:23,876 --> 00:08:25,876 Speaker 1: it seems we really need to drop this idea of 158 00:08:25,876 --> 00:08:29,636 Speaker 1: the isolated genius. George has a metaphor he believes reflects 159 00:08:29,676 --> 00:08:31,676 Speaker 1: the science of creativity even better. 160 00:08:32,476 --> 00:08:35,876 Speaker 2: I really like this metaphor of the creative explorer or 161 00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:41,756 Speaker 2: even archaeology, where we're exploring a landscape and searching for 162 00:08:41,796 --> 00:08:45,196 Speaker 2: an idea. So there's there's notion that ideas are in 163 00:08:45,236 --> 00:08:48,236 Speaker 2: some way external to us, and that we can draw 164 00:08:48,316 --> 00:08:51,716 Speaker 2: on inspiration and forms of insight and use that to 165 00:08:51,796 --> 00:08:55,756 Speaker 2: really propel our creative process. When you're feeling stuck, you know, 166 00:08:55,956 --> 00:08:58,356 Speaker 2: look out and see what kinds of things can I 167 00:08:58,436 --> 00:08:59,516 Speaker 2: draw from my environment. 168 00:08:59,956 --> 00:09:01,156 Speaker 1: One of the things I was shocked by in your 169 00:09:01,196 --> 00:09:03,036 Speaker 1: book is it seems like so many of the people 170 00:09:03,076 --> 00:09:05,196 Speaker 1: I think of as like the great kind of light 171 00:09:05,236 --> 00:09:08,316 Speaker 1: bulb inventors. They were the ones who also think of 172 00:09:08,356 --> 00:09:11,356 Speaker 1: this creative process as exploration. There was this quote from 173 00:09:11,396 --> 00:09:13,956 Speaker 1: Thomas Edison that I really loved, which was my soul 174 00:09:13,996 --> 00:09:16,636 Speaker 1: called inventions already existed in the environment. I took them out. 175 00:09:16,676 --> 00:09:19,316 Speaker 1: I created nothing nobody does. There's no such thing as 176 00:09:19,316 --> 00:09:22,836 Speaker 1: an idea being brain born. Everything comes from outside, which 177 00:09:22,916 --> 00:09:25,356 Speaker 1: is funny, particularly for Thomas Edison, who I literally think 178 00:09:25,356 --> 00:09:27,516 Speaker 1: of as the light bulb, like the light bulb creator, 179 00:09:27,556 --> 00:09:29,556 Speaker 1: but also like the light bulb popping up in his head. 180 00:09:29,836 --> 00:09:32,116 Speaker 1: But even he was like, nah, I didn't do anything fancy. 181 00:09:32,156 --> 00:09:33,996 Speaker 1: I just found the stuff that was already out. 182 00:09:33,836 --> 00:09:35,076 Speaker 3: There, totally totally. 183 00:09:35,156 --> 00:09:38,476 Speaker 2: I mean I think it's kind of like the quintessential example, right, 184 00:09:38,556 --> 00:09:42,796 Speaker 2: because we do associate Edison with inventing the light bulb, 185 00:09:42,916 --> 00:09:46,316 Speaker 2: and light bulb is kind of our model for creativity. 186 00:09:46,756 --> 00:09:49,196 Speaker 3: And yet Edison employed, you. 187 00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:52,836 Speaker 2: Know, at one point two hundred different people in these 188 00:09:52,956 --> 00:09:55,476 Speaker 2: large teams. He called them these Mucker teams, and they 189 00:09:55,516 --> 00:09:57,756 Speaker 2: essentially were just exploring space. 190 00:09:57,516 --> 00:09:59,796 Speaker 3: Trying out every different combination they could. 191 00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:02,436 Speaker 2: And even the discovery of the light bulb is really 192 00:10:02,436 --> 00:10:05,676 Speaker 2: fascinating because different parts of it had been worked out 193 00:10:05,716 --> 00:10:09,636 Speaker 2: for almost over a century, and it was really Edison 194 00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:12,876 Speaker 2: at the end working out a very tiny detail which 195 00:10:12,996 --> 00:10:14,996 Speaker 2: he largely borrowed from somebody else. 196 00:10:15,076 --> 00:10:16,996 Speaker 3: So there's notion that ideas just. 197 00:10:16,996 --> 00:10:20,436 Speaker 2: Spring forth from nowhere, I think really mistakes a lot 198 00:10:20,476 --> 00:10:21,876 Speaker 2: of what's really happening. 199 00:10:22,956 --> 00:10:25,036 Speaker 1: I kind of love George's new take on where good 200 00:10:25,076 --> 00:10:27,476 Speaker 1: ideas come from that we don't need to just wait 201 00:10:27,516 --> 00:10:30,436 Speaker 1: around for some light bulb moment to show up. Because 202 00:10:30,476 --> 00:10:33,636 Speaker 1: if finding good ideas is like excavating a landscape, that 203 00:10:33,676 --> 00:10:36,796 Speaker 1: means we can actually hack this process to generate new ideas. 204 00:10:37,476 --> 00:10:40,596 Speaker 1: But how do we do that? We'll have answers and 205 00:10:40,636 --> 00:10:44,036 Speaker 1: bust even more creativity myths When the Happiness Lab returns 206 00:10:44,076 --> 00:11:01,676 Speaker 1: from the break, Creativity expert George Newman argues that we 207 00:11:01,716 --> 00:11:04,396 Speaker 1: find our best ideas not by waiting for some muse 208 00:11:04,476 --> 00:11:07,236 Speaker 1: to strike, but by engaging in a process that's more 209 00:11:07,356 --> 00:11:10,636 Speaker 1: like an archaeological excavation, and that means that interesting new 210 00:11:10,636 --> 00:11:13,916 Speaker 1: ideas are to be found outside ourselves, whether that's from 211 00:11:13,956 --> 00:11:16,916 Speaker 1: the people we interact with, the places we explore, or 212 00:11:16,956 --> 00:11:18,476 Speaker 1: even the songs we listened to. 213 00:11:19,116 --> 00:11:23,876 Speaker 2: So I had been thinking about this exploration discovery idea. 214 00:11:24,156 --> 00:11:26,956 Speaker 2: And then I was listening to the Pixies and they 215 00:11:26,956 --> 00:11:31,556 Speaker 2: have this song dig for Fire, and something just clicked 216 00:11:31,636 --> 00:11:34,276 Speaker 2: for me there where I was like, oh, yeah, like archaeology, 217 00:11:34,756 --> 00:11:37,196 Speaker 2: and so I started kind of taking notes about it. 218 00:11:37,236 --> 00:11:40,676 Speaker 2: And then the longer I thought about it, it really 219 00:11:40,756 --> 00:11:44,556 Speaker 2: started to actually connect and I started learning more about archaeology, 220 00:11:44,996 --> 00:11:47,356 Speaker 2: and these different parts of the process really started to 221 00:11:47,476 --> 00:11:50,556 Speaker 2: map on to what I was trying to say about creativity. 222 00:11:51,196 --> 00:11:53,076 Speaker 1: And so you've argued that the same process that we 223 00:11:53,116 --> 00:11:55,796 Speaker 1: see in archaeology can be applied to creativity and that 224 00:11:55,836 --> 00:11:58,116 Speaker 1: can help us get unstuck. And one of the first 225 00:11:58,116 --> 00:12:00,596 Speaker 1: parts of these processes is what you've called surveying. 226 00:12:00,716 --> 00:12:01,116 Speaker 3: What's that? 227 00:12:01,996 --> 00:12:06,356 Speaker 2: So surveying is basically getting a sense of the landscape, 228 00:12:06,356 --> 00:12:09,556 Speaker 2: in this case, kind of the conceptual landscape, to figure 229 00:12:09,596 --> 00:12:13,916 Speaker 2: out where am I, where are other good ideas, what 230 00:12:14,036 --> 00:12:16,756 Speaker 2: is a good idea going to potentially look like. So 231 00:12:16,796 --> 00:12:20,716 Speaker 2: it's a way of orienting yourself in space, and it's 232 00:12:20,756 --> 00:12:23,676 Speaker 2: a big part of the process of archaeology. Right you 233 00:12:23,756 --> 00:12:25,996 Speaker 2: have to know where you're digging, otherwise you're just going 234 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:27,996 Speaker 2: to dig up a bunch of empty ground. 235 00:12:28,556 --> 00:12:30,356 Speaker 3: But It's also a really important. 236 00:12:29,916 --> 00:12:33,556 Speaker 2: Part of creativity where you know, if we just start 237 00:12:33,596 --> 00:12:37,396 Speaker 2: generating ideas randomly, probably not going to be super productive. 238 00:12:37,556 --> 00:12:41,436 Speaker 2: It's about looking to where have good ideas been discovered 239 00:12:41,436 --> 00:12:44,156 Speaker 2: in the past, and can I help orient myself towards 240 00:12:44,316 --> 00:12:46,196 Speaker 2: those more promising sites. 241 00:12:46,796 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 1: And when we start thinking of how we can go 242 00:12:48,316 --> 00:12:50,436 Speaker 1: about finding those promising sites, I think this is a 243 00:12:50,476 --> 00:12:53,276 Speaker 1: spot where another myth comes in. We assume that, like 244 00:12:53,516 --> 00:12:56,676 Speaker 1: I think really creatively, I need to be by myself. 245 00:12:56,756 --> 00:12:58,076 Speaker 1: We have this idea that I have to go off 246 00:12:58,116 --> 00:13:00,156 Speaker 1: to a cap in somewhere and lock myself up and 247 00:13:00,196 --> 00:13:02,076 Speaker 1: just have time by myself to think of all these 248 00:13:02,076 --> 00:13:04,876 Speaker 1: good ideas. But you've argued that that's wrong too. How 249 00:13:04,876 --> 00:13:05,436 Speaker 1: do we know that? 250 00:13:05,996 --> 00:13:10,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, So a major source of creativity is exposure to 251 00:13:10,956 --> 00:13:14,076 Speaker 2: outside information. Even new pictures on the wall and new 252 00:13:14,156 --> 00:13:17,076 Speaker 2: kinds of furniture and exposure to new people can be 253 00:13:17,156 --> 00:13:20,156 Speaker 2: that trigger which accuse a new idea. So there's some 254 00:13:20,236 --> 00:13:23,556 Speaker 2: empirical evidence also a lot of the myths that we 255 00:13:23,676 --> 00:13:26,316 Speaker 2: have about those cabin in the woods, like Threau, you 256 00:13:26,356 --> 00:13:28,516 Speaker 2: know was probably the most famous one, but he wasn't 257 00:13:28,556 --> 00:13:29,676 Speaker 2: isolated at all. 258 00:13:29,756 --> 00:13:31,836 Speaker 3: He was like half a mile from town. 259 00:13:32,036 --> 00:13:35,516 Speaker 2: He threw these parties and was seeing people all the time. 260 00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:37,636 Speaker 2: So I think there's this kind of cultural myth that 261 00:13:37,676 --> 00:13:41,676 Speaker 2: we're going off in isolation when actuality creatives are really 262 00:13:41,756 --> 00:13:43,036 Speaker 2: drawing on their environment. 263 00:13:43,316 --> 00:13:44,796 Speaker 1: Well, I want to pull that out because I've been 264 00:13:44,836 --> 00:13:46,756 Speaker 1: to the row House. It was basically a size of 265 00:13:46,796 --> 00:13:48,796 Speaker 1: my podcast studio with a little table and so on. 266 00:13:48,876 --> 00:13:51,516 Speaker 1: And my understanding was like he went there and just 267 00:13:51,596 --> 00:13:53,836 Speaker 1: hung out and like Walden sprung on him. But you're 268 00:13:53,836 --> 00:13:56,076 Speaker 1: saying he was at dinner parties and he was part 269 00:13:56,076 --> 00:13:56,836 Speaker 1: of civilization. 270 00:13:57,076 --> 00:13:57,556 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 271 00:13:57,636 --> 00:14:00,836 Speaker 2: Yeah. He would have over his author friends, family members, 272 00:14:00,916 --> 00:14:04,196 Speaker 2: He had an annual melon party. You know. Threau was 273 00:14:04,316 --> 00:14:06,596 Speaker 2: very much connected, and I think that was a big 274 00:14:06,636 --> 00:14:10,556 Speaker 2: part of his creativity and activity for everyone. 275 00:14:10,836 --> 00:14:12,876 Speaker 1: I think it's so critical, right because a lot of 276 00:14:12,916 --> 00:14:14,596 Speaker 1: the work that we talk about on the Happiness Lab 277 00:14:14,676 --> 00:14:17,836 Speaker 1: involves the importance of social connection for being happier. And 278 00:14:17,876 --> 00:14:20,916 Speaker 1: we also knew that feeling better increases your performance, So 279 00:14:20,916 --> 00:14:23,156 Speaker 1: it makes total sense that like just being around other 280 00:14:23,196 --> 00:14:25,396 Speaker 1: people kind of puts you in the mindset to be 281 00:14:25,516 --> 00:14:28,356 Speaker 1: performing better and being more creative. But also seems like 282 00:14:28,396 --> 00:14:31,076 Speaker 1: other people are just a font of lots of different ideas. 283 00:14:31,116 --> 00:14:33,036 Speaker 1: Just like putting new posters on the wall might getting 284 00:14:33,036 --> 00:14:35,996 Speaker 1: you think differently, just hearing other people's random ideas might 285 00:14:36,036 --> 00:14:36,596 Speaker 1: help you too. 286 00:14:37,036 --> 00:14:40,436 Speaker 2: I mean, even writing this book was a real opportunity 287 00:14:40,436 --> 00:14:42,916 Speaker 2: to kind of take my own medicine where you know, 288 00:14:42,956 --> 00:14:47,116 Speaker 2: inevitably I hit all of these creative blocks and then 289 00:14:47,116 --> 00:14:49,596 Speaker 2: I would kind of start sweating and try to block 290 00:14:49,636 --> 00:14:51,876 Speaker 2: out all of the noise and everything. And it wasn't 291 00:14:51,916 --> 00:14:56,116 Speaker 2: until I started just reading and exploring things online and 292 00:14:56,196 --> 00:14:59,556 Speaker 2: checking out new sources that were new to me that 293 00:14:59,716 --> 00:15:02,796 Speaker 2: I really started unlocking some of those new ideas and 294 00:15:02,836 --> 00:15:03,956 Speaker 2: new kinds of insights. 295 00:15:04,276 --> 00:15:06,516 Speaker 1: Another thing we need to reject is this idea that 296 00:15:06,716 --> 00:15:08,596 Speaker 1: to come up with something creative it has to be 297 00:15:08,636 --> 00:15:11,796 Speaker 1: perfectly original. You've argued that we should just embrace the 298 00:15:11,836 --> 00:15:14,476 Speaker 1: idea of emulating a bit more. Why is emulating so 299 00:15:14,516 --> 00:15:16,516 Speaker 1: effective when it comes to new ideas. 300 00:15:16,796 --> 00:15:19,876 Speaker 2: We often hear phrases like it's been done before, and 301 00:15:19,916 --> 00:15:22,436 Speaker 2: I think that can be a way to dissuade us 302 00:15:22,516 --> 00:15:25,876 Speaker 2: from going down in particular avenue. But it turns out 303 00:15:25,916 --> 00:15:28,836 Speaker 2: that a lot of great ideas throughout history were about 304 00:15:28,876 --> 00:15:32,076 Speaker 2: building on what has come before and just triaking it 305 00:15:32,236 --> 00:15:34,196 Speaker 2: a little bit. And I think about this as kind 306 00:15:34,196 --> 00:15:37,316 Speaker 2: of like finding your own five percent. I call it 307 00:15:37,356 --> 00:15:40,556 Speaker 2: the five percent novelty rule in the book. But if 308 00:15:40,556 --> 00:15:43,036 Speaker 2: we're able to borrow an existing idea and then put 309 00:15:43,076 --> 00:15:45,916 Speaker 2: your own spin or find a new application or a 310 00:15:45,956 --> 00:15:48,156 Speaker 2: new way of thinking about it, that can usually be 311 00:15:48,436 --> 00:15:51,756 Speaker 2: a really powerful source of creativity that lots of different 312 00:15:51,756 --> 00:15:53,196 Speaker 2: people have used throughout history. 313 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:57,036 Speaker 1: So that's stage one surveying. Next, stage stage two is 314 00:15:57,036 --> 00:15:59,476 Speaker 1: what you call gridding. How does gridding work and what's 315 00:15:59,476 --> 00:16:01,516 Speaker 1: the connection with what archaeologists are doing there? 316 00:16:01,916 --> 00:16:04,276 Speaker 2: So gridding in archaeology is the stage of you know, 317 00:16:04,276 --> 00:16:07,996 Speaker 2: where they're stringing up twine over the site into manageable grids, 318 00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:11,036 Speaker 2: and there is I want to keep track of everywhere 319 00:16:11,116 --> 00:16:14,156 Speaker 2: I've searched, where did I find stuff? And importantly, where 320 00:16:14,196 --> 00:16:16,996 Speaker 2: didn't I find stuff? And so I make an argument 321 00:16:17,036 --> 00:16:20,956 Speaker 2: for a similar kind of process with creativity, of trying 322 00:16:20,996 --> 00:16:24,276 Speaker 2: the best you can to make your search process systematic. 323 00:16:24,676 --> 00:16:27,596 Speaker 1: You've also argued that gridding requires having a guiding question 324 00:16:27,756 --> 00:16:29,756 Speaker 1: to know that you're on the right track. What's a 325 00:16:29,796 --> 00:16:31,476 Speaker 1: guiding question? Why is it so essential? 326 00:16:31,796 --> 00:16:33,596 Speaker 2: I talk about the guiding question is kind of like 327 00:16:33,676 --> 00:16:37,676 Speaker 2: your compass in this process, and it essentially comes down 328 00:16:37,796 --> 00:16:41,436 Speaker 2: to what am I trying to do and why who 329 00:16:41,516 --> 00:16:44,956 Speaker 2: is this idea for? Who's going to find it impactful? 330 00:16:44,996 --> 00:16:49,156 Speaker 2: And it's not really about pandering to a specific audience 331 00:16:49,196 --> 00:16:52,396 Speaker 2: so much as understanding the value that somebody is going 332 00:16:52,436 --> 00:16:54,636 Speaker 2: to get from your idea, why they're going to find 333 00:16:54,676 --> 00:16:57,196 Speaker 2: it useful, and that can be such a powerful way 334 00:16:57,236 --> 00:17:00,276 Speaker 2: of helping to orient us more or away from less 335 00:17:00,276 --> 00:17:01,276 Speaker 2: promising directions. 336 00:17:01,636 --> 00:17:04,276 Speaker 1: So there's another myth that we have during this gridding process, 337 00:17:04,316 --> 00:17:06,076 Speaker 1: which was one that I was kind of surprised by. 338 00:17:06,116 --> 00:17:09,476 Speaker 1: I think we're thinking about our guiding questions coming up 339 00:17:09,516 --> 00:17:12,196 Speaker 1: with new ideas. We often assume that we need to 340 00:17:12,196 --> 00:17:15,236 Speaker 1: think outside the box, right, But you've argued that thinking 341 00:17:15,236 --> 00:17:17,756 Speaker 1: outside the box is bad, which shocked me. Why isn't 342 00:17:17,756 --> 00:17:18,476 Speaker 1: this a good idea? 343 00:17:19,396 --> 00:17:21,516 Speaker 2: What I say in the book is think inside the box. 344 00:17:21,756 --> 00:17:25,076 Speaker 2: Use those constraints to your advantage. I talk about the 345 00:17:25,076 --> 00:17:30,796 Speaker 2: way in which creativity really responds to not only what's 346 00:17:30,796 --> 00:17:34,236 Speaker 2: in our environment, but what about the environment is limiting 347 00:17:34,316 --> 00:17:37,476 Speaker 2: our idea, And when we can take those limitations and 348 00:17:37,636 --> 00:17:40,676 Speaker 2: use them to our advantage, it actually can be a 349 00:17:40,756 --> 00:17:43,316 Speaker 2: very powerful source of creativity. So I talk about the 350 00:17:43,396 --> 00:17:47,076 Speaker 2: artist Matisse and how late in life he had to 351 00:17:47,076 --> 00:17:50,716 Speaker 2: get a major surgery which basically left him bedridden. He 352 00:17:50,836 --> 00:17:53,356 Speaker 2: wasn't able to paint in the way that he had before, 353 00:17:53,436 --> 00:17:55,956 Speaker 2: but that led him to explore this totally new method 354 00:17:56,116 --> 00:17:59,156 Speaker 2: using paper cutouts. And that's a lot of what we 355 00:17:59,276 --> 00:18:03,116 Speaker 2: know Matisse for today is the style that developed specifically 356 00:18:03,156 --> 00:18:05,436 Speaker 2: because of those limitations that he was facing. 357 00:18:05,676 --> 00:18:07,796 Speaker 1: This thinking inside the box is awesome because I think 358 00:18:07,876 --> 00:18:10,476 Speaker 1: it allows us to remember that not only can we 359 00:18:10,516 --> 00:18:12,876 Speaker 1: be creative when like something tricky has happened, right like 360 00:18:12,876 --> 00:18:15,476 Speaker 1: I'm bedridden, I can't do the same thing, but maybe 361 00:18:15,516 --> 00:18:19,276 Speaker 1: those constraints and those bad situations might make us more creative, 362 00:18:19,356 --> 00:18:21,796 Speaker 1: which seems like a different attitude than we normally take 363 00:18:21,796 --> 00:18:22,996 Speaker 1: towards the creative process. 364 00:18:23,396 --> 00:18:25,276 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I even go so far in the 365 00:18:25,276 --> 00:18:28,276 Speaker 2: book to say, let's run towards those constraints. Let's try 366 00:18:28,316 --> 00:18:32,036 Speaker 2: to find them and seek them out and narrow our 367 00:18:32,076 --> 00:18:34,356 Speaker 2: search field a little bit, or narrow the way that 368 00:18:34,396 --> 00:18:35,836 Speaker 2: we're exploring for ideas. 369 00:18:36,196 --> 00:18:40,156 Speaker 1: Another practical strategy for using constraints is what you've called transplanting. 370 00:18:40,516 --> 00:18:44,756 Speaker 2: What's that so transplanting is this idea of taking principles 371 00:18:45,076 --> 00:18:47,756 Speaker 2: or things that have worked in one domain and applying 372 00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:50,276 Speaker 2: them to another. And if you look across history, this 373 00:18:50,396 --> 00:18:53,036 Speaker 2: also winds up being a really powerful way in which 374 00:18:53,076 --> 00:18:56,516 Speaker 2: people generate new ideas. One of my favorite examples there 375 00:18:56,596 --> 00:18:59,876 Speaker 2: is a woman named Janet Stevens who was a hairdresser, 376 00:19:00,276 --> 00:19:03,556 Speaker 2: and she was at a museum and noticing Roman busts 377 00:19:03,956 --> 00:19:07,196 Speaker 2: and said, Oh, I wonder how they were able to construct. 378 00:19:06,756 --> 00:19:08,476 Speaker 3: These like elaborate hairstyles. 379 00:19:08,516 --> 00:19:11,116 Speaker 2: And so she began this process of trying to recreate 380 00:19:11,156 --> 00:19:14,596 Speaker 2: them herself and figured out that it's possible to do 381 00:19:15,276 --> 00:19:18,196 Speaker 2: by stitching the hair together, and this wound up being 382 00:19:18,196 --> 00:19:21,836 Speaker 2: actually a big discovery for classic scholars who had assumed 383 00:19:21,836 --> 00:19:24,156 Speaker 2: that must have been wigs or something like that. 384 00:19:24,516 --> 00:19:26,716 Speaker 1: He also told this example of the invention of the 385 00:19:26,716 --> 00:19:29,516 Speaker 1: bullet train, which I found fascinating. Can you share that one? 386 00:19:29,716 --> 00:19:32,036 Speaker 2: So when they first invented the bullet train, you had 387 00:19:32,076 --> 00:19:35,356 Speaker 2: this problem that it was traveling at such speeds that 388 00:19:35,356 --> 00:19:37,796 Speaker 2: when it would exit the tunnel, it would create this 389 00:19:37,836 --> 00:19:41,676 Speaker 2: like supersonic boom effect. And so engineered happened to be 390 00:19:41,756 --> 00:19:45,836 Speaker 2: an avid bird watcher knew about the kingfisher bird, which 391 00:19:45,996 --> 00:19:47,556 Speaker 2: doesn't want to scare away the fish, and so it 392 00:19:47,556 --> 00:19:50,036 Speaker 2: has this very long beak that kind of allows it 393 00:19:50,076 --> 00:19:54,716 Speaker 2: to seamlessly enter the water. So by copying the kingfisher's beak, 394 00:19:54,996 --> 00:19:57,516 Speaker 2: they were actually able to redesign the train so it 395 00:19:57,596 --> 00:20:00,476 Speaker 2: could exit the tunnel and not make this boom effect. 396 00:20:01,236 --> 00:20:02,676 Speaker 1: So the front of the train actually looks like the 397 00:20:02,716 --> 00:20:04,396 Speaker 1: beak of a kingfisher. 398 00:20:04,276 --> 00:20:07,556 Speaker 3: To me, almost identically. Yeah, that's so awesome. 399 00:20:07,716 --> 00:20:10,356 Speaker 1: It also fits with these studies coming out showing that 400 00:20:10,476 --> 00:20:13,236 Speaker 1: if you look at like Nobel Prize winners, they often 401 00:20:13,436 --> 00:20:15,916 Speaker 1: are more likely to have these kind of outside hobbies 402 00:20:15,956 --> 00:20:18,516 Speaker 1: and things than folks who haven't won the Nobel Prize. 403 00:20:18,556 --> 00:20:21,636 Speaker 1: This idea that like being interested in multiple fields or 404 00:20:21,676 --> 00:20:24,356 Speaker 1: having kind of funny hobbies actually helps you be more 405 00:20:24,396 --> 00:20:26,636 Speaker 1: successful in your field, maybe more creative in your field. 406 00:20:26,796 --> 00:20:28,876 Speaker 1: It suggest that maybe if you're doing these other hobbies, 407 00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:31,276 Speaker 1: you just have more ideas to transplant from one domain 408 00:20:31,316 --> 00:20:31,876 Speaker 1: into another. 409 00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:36,156 Speaker 2: Those are some really fascinating studies on early diversification and 410 00:20:36,276 --> 00:20:39,796 Speaker 2: how people who wind up being very successful in their 411 00:20:39,836 --> 00:20:43,996 Speaker 2: careers early on, instead of specializing very narrowly, kind of 412 00:20:44,036 --> 00:20:46,756 Speaker 2: took a very broad Swath, and it seems like what 413 00:20:46,876 --> 00:20:49,876 Speaker 2: these folks are doing is being able to draw on 414 00:20:49,916 --> 00:20:53,156 Speaker 2: a really diverse set of ideas and then re explain 415 00:20:53,236 --> 00:20:55,316 Speaker 2: them in terms of their own expertise. 416 00:20:55,996 --> 00:20:57,716 Speaker 1: It was fun to hear you talk about that, George, 417 00:20:57,716 --> 00:20:59,596 Speaker 1: because we haven't mentioned this yet, but you and I 418 00:20:59,716 --> 00:21:03,676 Speaker 1: worked together a long time ago on experiments with monkeys, 419 00:21:03,796 --> 00:21:06,876 Speaker 1: and I know you've done work on celebrities and possessions, 420 00:21:06,956 --> 00:21:09,836 Speaker 1: and you've done work on pro social donation. Like if 421 00:21:09,836 --> 00:21:11,676 Speaker 1: I look at your CV, there's just papers on all 422 00:21:11,716 --> 00:21:14,356 Speaker 1: these different topics. You are so diverse as a young scholar, 423 00:21:14,396 --> 00:21:16,036 Speaker 1: and I feel like that might be why you're so 424 00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:17,996 Speaker 1: good at talking about creativity today. 425 00:21:18,276 --> 00:21:20,756 Speaker 2: Or maybe I'm just trying to justify my own past. 426 00:21:23,276 --> 00:21:25,316 Speaker 1: So far, George and I have covered steps one and 427 00:21:25,396 --> 00:21:29,076 Speaker 1: two of his creative process, surveying and gritting. But once 428 00:21:29,116 --> 00:21:31,316 Speaker 1: you've done that, it's finally time to dig up that 429 00:21:31,476 --> 00:21:35,156 Speaker 1: new idea and we'll discuss how to uncover something amazing 430 00:21:35,476 --> 00:21:52,956 Speaker 1: when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment. In his 431 00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:56,516 Speaker 1: new book, How Great Ideas Happen, Doctor George Newman upends 432 00:21:56,556 --> 00:22:00,636 Speaker 1: common misconceptions about the creative process. Instead of waiting for 433 00:22:00,716 --> 00:22:04,676 Speaker 1: divine inspiration. He encourages us to channel our inner Indiana 434 00:22:04,756 --> 00:22:08,636 Speaker 1: Jones and start playing archaeologist. And once all your idea 435 00:22:08,676 --> 00:22:11,036 Speaker 1: ground were is laid with the first steps of serving 436 00:22:11,116 --> 00:22:13,836 Speaker 1: and gritting, it's time for the part that everyone's been 437 00:22:13,876 --> 00:22:15,716 Speaker 1: waiting for, idea generation. 438 00:22:16,156 --> 00:22:18,356 Speaker 2: So this next stage in the process is all about 439 00:22:18,436 --> 00:22:22,356 Speaker 2: getting everything you can out of the ground. And there's 440 00:22:22,396 --> 00:22:26,236 Speaker 2: a study that I love called the creative cliff illusion 441 00:22:26,516 --> 00:22:28,556 Speaker 2: that people kind of think that they're going to run 442 00:22:28,596 --> 00:22:31,556 Speaker 2: out of ideas, that when they start brainstorming, Oh, I 443 00:22:31,596 --> 00:22:34,476 Speaker 2: can only come up with ten or fifteen ideas in 444 00:22:34,516 --> 00:22:35,036 Speaker 2: this domain. 445 00:22:35,116 --> 00:22:36,796 Speaker 3: But when we keep persisting, when. 446 00:22:36,676 --> 00:22:39,756 Speaker 2: We keep going, we're able to generate many more ideas 447 00:22:39,796 --> 00:22:42,636 Speaker 2: and we expect. So the real key of digging is 448 00:22:42,716 --> 00:22:45,236 Speaker 2: more is more just trying to generate as much stuff 449 00:22:45,276 --> 00:22:48,476 Speaker 2: as possible, not worrying about how practical it is. At 450 00:22:48,476 --> 00:22:51,916 Speaker 2: that point, we're just going to be generating ideas. We're 451 00:22:51,916 --> 00:22:54,196 Speaker 2: just going to be kind of brainstorming. No idea as bad. 452 00:22:54,316 --> 00:22:57,036 Speaker 2: In fact, let's generate as many bad ideas as we 453 00:22:57,116 --> 00:22:59,996 Speaker 2: possibly can, and then let's go back later to see 454 00:23:00,036 --> 00:23:00,876 Speaker 2: what we've really found. 455 00:23:01,596 --> 00:23:03,396 Speaker 1: This may be a delicate question, but I guessing is 456 00:23:03,436 --> 00:23:05,276 Speaker 1: one that a lot of folks are asking right now, 457 00:23:05,636 --> 00:23:09,036 Speaker 1: how helpful is AI when we're going through this idea generations. 458 00:23:09,516 --> 00:23:11,676 Speaker 1: Should we be using lots of different lms to help 459 00:23:11,756 --> 00:23:13,956 Speaker 1: us generate ideas? Is that a good thing or are 460 00:23:13,956 --> 00:23:15,076 Speaker 1: there some constraints there? 461 00:23:15,396 --> 00:23:18,036 Speaker 2: I with the researchers showing is that it can definitely 462 00:23:18,036 --> 00:23:21,036 Speaker 2: be a good thing when it's used in the right way. 463 00:23:21,356 --> 00:23:23,476 Speaker 2: The way I like to fit it into this archaeology 464 00:23:23,516 --> 00:23:27,156 Speaker 2: metaphor is that AI is like a really powerful excavator. 465 00:23:27,676 --> 00:23:29,676 Speaker 2: It's a way of clearing a lot of ground in 466 00:23:29,716 --> 00:23:31,556 Speaker 2: a very short amount of time. But you have to 467 00:23:31,636 --> 00:23:33,916 Speaker 2: know what you're looking for, and you have to know 468 00:23:34,116 --> 00:23:36,076 Speaker 2: where you're going to direct it, because if you just 469 00:23:36,476 --> 00:23:39,476 Speaker 2: plow an excavator, you know you're going to find a 470 00:23:39,516 --> 00:23:42,396 Speaker 2: lot of ground where there's absolutely nothing. AI is a 471 00:23:42,436 --> 00:23:46,276 Speaker 2: really powerful tool for kind of generating more ideas, but 472 00:23:46,356 --> 00:23:48,196 Speaker 2: you know, if we're not careful, those ideas can be 473 00:23:48,276 --> 00:23:50,916 Speaker 2: really similar, and so you know, on aggregate it can 474 00:23:50,956 --> 00:23:54,156 Speaker 2: make everybody's ideas the same. So we really need that 475 00:23:54,236 --> 00:23:56,676 Speaker 2: guidance early on to make sure that I'm directing it 476 00:23:56,756 --> 00:23:58,836 Speaker 2: to new and promising directions. 477 00:23:59,596 --> 00:24:01,996 Speaker 1: Okay, so we've excavated all the good ideas. Now we 478 00:24:02,036 --> 00:24:04,116 Speaker 1: move on to the final phase, stage four, which is 479 00:24:04,156 --> 00:24:05,996 Speaker 1: what you call sifting. What's sifting? 480 00:24:06,876 --> 00:24:09,436 Speaker 2: So sifting now is you know, we've taken up bunch 481 00:24:09,436 --> 00:24:12,076 Speaker 2: of stuff out of the ground. More is more, and 482 00:24:12,116 --> 00:24:14,236 Speaker 2: we're going to go back and see do we find 483 00:24:14,276 --> 00:24:17,036 Speaker 2: anything of note? Is there anything here that's actually going 484 00:24:17,076 --> 00:24:19,596 Speaker 2: to be useful to us? And so if in the 485 00:24:19,636 --> 00:24:23,196 Speaker 2: digging stage it's all about optimism, go go go, the 486 00:24:23,196 --> 00:24:25,276 Speaker 2: sifting stage is really the opposite. We want to be 487 00:24:25,436 --> 00:24:28,716 Speaker 2: as hard headed and critical as possible to say is 488 00:24:28,756 --> 00:24:30,796 Speaker 2: this really something that we can carry forward? 489 00:24:31,236 --> 00:24:33,836 Speaker 1: And when we're doing that critical process, we have to 490 00:24:33,876 --> 00:24:35,636 Speaker 1: make sure that we don't fall prey to a bunch 491 00:24:35,716 --> 00:24:38,396 Speaker 1: of biases. One bias that I know I fall prey 492 00:24:38,436 --> 00:24:39,996 Speaker 1: to a lot that I need to let go. Is 493 00:24:40,036 --> 00:24:43,156 Speaker 1: what you've called the creative endowment effect. What's that? And 494 00:24:43,156 --> 00:24:44,636 Speaker 1: how can we let go of that bias? 495 00:24:45,716 --> 00:24:48,396 Speaker 2: So the creative endowment effect is actually some research that 496 00:24:48,716 --> 00:24:51,356 Speaker 2: we did in our lab, which is our attachment to 497 00:24:51,916 --> 00:24:55,036 Speaker 2: our own ideas that because I'm the person who came 498 00:24:55,116 --> 00:24:58,276 Speaker 2: up with it, it's really good, and we found that if 499 00:24:58,276 --> 00:25:00,836 Speaker 2: you just take those same ideas and pass them along 500 00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:04,276 Speaker 2: to somebody else. They're actually much more accurate at finding 501 00:25:04,476 --> 00:25:05,956 Speaker 2: the better ideas in those sets. 502 00:25:06,556 --> 00:25:08,516 Speaker 1: That's so important because this comes up in like group 503 00:25:08,516 --> 00:25:10,836 Speaker 1: settings all time, Like we'll have it's big brainstorm meeting 504 00:25:10,836 --> 00:25:13,276 Speaker 1: and everyone's dropping ideas and we're on idea like number 505 00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:14,836 Speaker 1: one hundred and forty two. I'm like, I like to 506 00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:17,116 Speaker 1: go back to idea number one that I had, Like 507 00:25:17,196 --> 00:25:18,316 Speaker 1: I really liked that one. 508 00:25:18,756 --> 00:25:20,836 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I mean I think it comes out of 509 00:25:20,876 --> 00:25:23,076 Speaker 2: this again, it's kind of like an extension of this 510 00:25:23,236 --> 00:25:26,636 Speaker 2: genius or light bulb way of thinking that Oh. 511 00:25:26,476 --> 00:25:29,156 Speaker 3: Well I thought of it. You know, how could it 512 00:25:29,156 --> 00:25:29,716 Speaker 3: not be great? 513 00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:32,676 Speaker 2: So as much as as we can trying to create 514 00:25:32,716 --> 00:25:36,756 Speaker 2: that psychological distance and space between you know, ourselves and 515 00:25:36,756 --> 00:25:39,156 Speaker 2: our ideas, we can see them more objectively. 516 00:25:39,796 --> 00:25:42,276 Speaker 1: Another bias we need to overcome is our tendency to 517 00:25:42,316 --> 00:25:45,436 Speaker 1: always want to add more. We're very good at adding stuff, 518 00:25:45,436 --> 00:25:48,116 Speaker 1: but we kind of suck at subtracting stuff. Why is 519 00:25:48,156 --> 00:25:51,436 Speaker 1: subtracting so essential during this part of the creative process. 520 00:25:52,036 --> 00:25:55,276 Speaker 2: Well, it's a really fascinating work showing that subtraction itself 521 00:25:55,316 --> 00:25:59,236 Speaker 2: can be a really powerful way of generating new ideas, 522 00:25:59,396 --> 00:26:00,956 Speaker 2: and it's not something that normally. 523 00:26:00,596 --> 00:26:01,236 Speaker 3: Occurs to us. 524 00:26:01,316 --> 00:26:03,596 Speaker 2: Right, we think about what we can add, not what 525 00:26:03,636 --> 00:26:04,436 Speaker 2: we can take away. 526 00:26:04,796 --> 00:26:07,076 Speaker 1: I think there's a very famous Lego study on this, Right. 527 00:26:07,276 --> 00:26:10,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, so gave Adams at the Universe, Virgina and her colleagues, 528 00:26:10,916 --> 00:26:14,676 Speaker 2: you know, they gave people some kind of creative object 529 00:26:14,756 --> 00:26:17,156 Speaker 2: and then said can you make it better in lots 530 00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:20,596 Speaker 2: of different context and people always added stuff, they never 531 00:26:20,996 --> 00:26:23,436 Speaker 2: took things away. And even when it came down to 532 00:26:23,636 --> 00:26:26,716 Speaker 2: like fixing a paragraph of text that had a lot 533 00:26:26,716 --> 00:26:30,836 Speaker 2: of redundant senses, instead of removing the redundant senses, they 534 00:26:30,996 --> 00:26:31,996 Speaker 2: just added more. 535 00:26:32,756 --> 00:26:34,916 Speaker 1: So how can we get ourselves to notice that subtraction 536 00:26:35,076 --> 00:26:35,676 Speaker 1: is essential? 537 00:26:36,436 --> 00:26:40,196 Speaker 2: I like this metaphor of floating a raft versus building 538 00:26:40,196 --> 00:26:43,076 Speaker 2: a tower. You know, given our attachment to our own ideas, 539 00:26:43,196 --> 00:26:46,196 Speaker 2: there's this tendency to say, here's everything I've done. Let 540 00:26:46,196 --> 00:26:49,156 Speaker 2: me stack up this giant tower of stuff so you 541 00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:51,236 Speaker 2: can see it, and that reflects all of the effort 542 00:26:51,236 --> 00:26:54,076 Speaker 2: that I put in. But when we're evaluating our ideas, 543 00:26:54,156 --> 00:26:56,556 Speaker 2: I think it's much more powerful to think about, like 544 00:26:56,676 --> 00:26:59,316 Speaker 2: floating a raft, what's going to make my idea or 545 00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:02,596 Speaker 2: set of ideas water tight and finding all of the holes, 546 00:27:02,596 --> 00:27:04,556 Speaker 2: and a lot of that time's getting to that place 547 00:27:05,076 --> 00:27:05,956 Speaker 2: is about subtraction. 548 00:27:06,396 --> 00:27:09,116 Speaker 1: There's another thing that can derail us during the selection process, 549 00:27:09,156 --> 00:27:12,116 Speaker 1: which I found kind of surprising actually, which is that 550 00:27:12,156 --> 00:27:15,196 Speaker 1: we can sometimes get messed up when somebody else praises 551 00:27:15,276 --> 00:27:17,436 Speaker 1: one of our ideas. How does that work and how 552 00:27:17,476 --> 00:27:18,276 Speaker 1: does it mess us up? 553 00:27:18,636 --> 00:27:20,716 Speaker 2: There's a lot of situations in which praise can kind 554 00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:23,956 Speaker 2: of be a creativity killer, and some very interesting work 555 00:27:24,076 --> 00:27:27,916 Speaker 2: showing that when somebody says, hey, you've got a genius ideal, 556 00:27:28,116 --> 00:27:30,636 Speaker 2: we're going to be really reluctant to prove them wrong. 557 00:27:30,756 --> 00:27:33,276 Speaker 2: And because of that, we're going to actually engage in 558 00:27:33,356 --> 00:27:37,676 Speaker 2: less exploration, less swinging for the fences, which is exactly 559 00:27:37,716 --> 00:27:40,476 Speaker 2: what the work on creativity suggests we should be doing. 560 00:27:40,556 --> 00:27:42,916 Speaker 1: And probably less subtraction. If somebody tells you, oh my gosh, 561 00:27:42,956 --> 00:27:44,956 Speaker 1: that idea is great, even if it doesn't fit on 562 00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:48,036 Speaker 1: your raft to makes your ideas flow effectively, you're going 563 00:27:48,076 --> 00:27:49,676 Speaker 1: to want to keep it there because someone just said, oh, 564 00:27:49,716 --> 00:27:50,316 Speaker 1: this is great. 565 00:27:50,676 --> 00:27:53,276 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think this is a big issue even 566 00:27:53,276 --> 00:27:55,956 Speaker 2: as people get more senior in their roles, right it's 567 00:27:56,036 --> 00:27:58,996 Speaker 2: hard to not attribute your success to all of the 568 00:27:58,996 --> 00:28:01,276 Speaker 2: great ideas that you've had in the past, and so 569 00:28:01,316 --> 00:28:04,116 Speaker 2: you become that much more attached to all of them, 570 00:28:04,156 --> 00:28:04,996 Speaker 2: in every part of them. 571 00:28:05,556 --> 00:28:07,556 Speaker 1: So we need to be careful about praise. But we 572 00:28:07,596 --> 00:28:10,196 Speaker 1: also want to get feedback from other people. So how 573 00:28:10,196 --> 00:28:12,396 Speaker 1: can we get that balance most effectively? 574 00:28:13,756 --> 00:28:16,196 Speaker 2: Well, I talk about a lot of different strategies for 575 00:28:16,636 --> 00:28:19,636 Speaker 2: getting feedback. One that I really like is thinking about 576 00:28:19,676 --> 00:28:22,636 Speaker 2: feedback is how do we get on a learning curve? 577 00:28:22,956 --> 00:28:26,276 Speaker 2: How do we think about making incremental tweaks to our 578 00:28:26,356 --> 00:28:29,556 Speaker 2: idea rather than throwing the whole thing out, because I think, 579 00:28:29,796 --> 00:28:32,396 Speaker 2: especially when we get critical feedback, there's a tendency to say, oh, 580 00:28:32,556 --> 00:28:33,676 Speaker 2: scrap it, I'm going to move on. 581 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,316 Speaker 3: But you know that's ignoring all of the process that 582 00:28:36,316 --> 00:28:37,596 Speaker 3: we've paid along the way. 583 00:28:38,396 --> 00:28:40,316 Speaker 1: A final thing we need to pay attention to, which 584 00:28:40,356 --> 00:28:41,916 Speaker 1: I love a lot, because we talk about this a 585 00:28:41,916 --> 00:28:44,396 Speaker 1: lot on the Happiness Lab, is that the creative process, 586 00:28:44,436 --> 00:28:47,316 Speaker 1: and especially the subtracting part of the creative process, really 587 00:28:47,356 --> 00:28:51,236 Speaker 1: requires a lot of emotion regulation. Why is emotion regulation 588 00:28:51,356 --> 00:28:54,076 Speaker 1: so critical for creativity and where can do we badly 589 00:28:54,156 --> 00:28:54,876 Speaker 1: lead us astray? 590 00:28:55,996 --> 00:28:56,156 Speaker 3: Well? 591 00:28:56,196 --> 00:28:58,836 Speaker 2: I think one place that leads us astrays, you know 592 00:28:58,876 --> 00:29:01,476 Speaker 2: we were talking about, like the attachment to our own ideas. 593 00:29:01,676 --> 00:29:03,356 Speaker 2: The other place that leads us astray is that the 594 00:29:03,396 --> 00:29:06,356 Speaker 2: research suggests that it's in fact those ideas that we 595 00:29:06,396 --> 00:29:10,076 Speaker 2: maybe feel a little bit uncomfortable or anxious about that 596 00:29:10,156 --> 00:29:13,596 Speaker 2: wind up being the most promising. Sometimes when an idea 597 00:29:13,796 --> 00:29:17,756 Speaker 2: is really novel and kind of abstract, when we first 598 00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:19,716 Speaker 2: think of it, we say, oh, like, maybe it's not 599 00:29:19,876 --> 00:29:23,116 Speaker 2: that promising, and we use that feeling to inform whether 600 00:29:23,196 --> 00:29:26,196 Speaker 2: or not we explore it further. But research suggests, hey, 601 00:29:26,236 --> 00:29:28,716 Speaker 2: we should actually jump on those opportunities and those can 602 00:29:28,756 --> 00:29:30,116 Speaker 2: be some of our best ideas. 603 00:29:30,796 --> 00:29:34,076 Speaker 1: So if you've been feeling bored or creatively uninspired, now 604 00:29:34,156 --> 00:29:36,716 Speaker 1: is the time to get unstuck. You don't have to 605 00:29:36,756 --> 00:29:39,276 Speaker 1: be an artist or an innovator to put George's advice 606 00:29:39,356 --> 00:29:42,756 Speaker 1: into practice. You could use these strategies to pursue a 607 00:29:42,796 --> 00:29:46,356 Speaker 1: new career path, remodel your kitchen, or even rethink your 608 00:29:46,356 --> 00:29:50,556 Speaker 1: exercise routine. Just remember to look outside yourself and be 609 00:29:50,636 --> 00:29:54,316 Speaker 1: open to the possibilities and sources of inspiration in your environment. 610 00:29:54,876 --> 00:29:58,436 Speaker 1: Something totally unexpected may just fuel a life changing idea. 611 00:29:59,476 --> 00:30:01,396 Speaker 1: And if you want even more tips about how to 612 00:30:01,436 --> 00:30:04,476 Speaker 1: get more creative, be sure to check out George's new book, 613 00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 1: How Great Ideas Happen, which is out this week. Up 614 00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:11,476 Speaker 1: next week on the Happiness Lab, we'll wrap up our 615 00:30:11,516 --> 00:30:14,676 Speaker 1: series on getting Unstuck in twenty twenty six, and this 616 00:30:14,836 --> 00:30:18,316 Speaker 1: time we're going big, like meaning of Life big, or 617 00:30:18,316 --> 00:30:20,316 Speaker 1: at least meaning in life big. 618 00:30:20,716 --> 00:30:23,716 Speaker 4: You're just thinking about the paradigm of life raw, getting 619 00:30:23,716 --> 00:30:26,316 Speaker 4: more out of life, not cram more into it. Oh, 620 00:30:26,316 --> 00:30:28,596 Speaker 4: I need another hobby, I need a bigger thing, I 621 00:30:28,636 --> 00:30:30,596 Speaker 4: need more. No, you don't need more. You need to 622 00:30:30,636 --> 00:30:32,196 Speaker 4: get more out of what's already there. 623 00:30:33,436 --> 00:30:36,076 Speaker 1: That's all Next time on the Happiness Lab with me 624 00:30:36,316 --> 00:30:42,076 Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Santos