1 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Hello, Stephanomics. Here the podcast that brings you the global economy, 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: and this week we're shifting gear to talk about music, 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: fast fashion, and catch up. We all feel a bit 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: better about our mass consumption culture when we drop our 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: empty milk cartons or last year's trousers in the recycling bin, 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: usually on our way to buying more. But holding onto 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: that warm feeling, I've discovered relies on not thinking very 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: much about where all that discarded stuff goes next. If 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: you're someone who likes to refresh your wardrobe on a 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: regular basis, you definitely shouldn't go to Gharna, where parts 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: of the coastline are clogged with what locals call dead 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: white people's clothes washed up on the beach, sometimes in 13 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: six foot piles. Bloomberg investigative reporter Natalie Pierson went to 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: Ghana and India to see for herself what happened to 15 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: all the second hand clothes we ship abroad. We have 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: that depressing story in a minute, and some truths about 17 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: plastics recycling from a teacher and former official from the 18 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency Judith Ink. But first we have an 19 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: insight into another corner of the economy, which looks seriously 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: out of whack. Only this time the problem isn't excess supply, 21 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: but an explosion in demand the tickets to see the 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: singer Taylor Swift. Here's Bloomberg's Augusta Serreva. Good morning America. 23 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: It's Taylor. I wanted to tell you something that I've 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: been so excited about for a really long time. Have 25 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: been planning for ages, and I finally get to tell 26 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: you I'm going back on tour. Taylor Swift has been 27 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: my top streaming artist for six years now. Despite that, 28 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: I've never had a chance to see her alive. That's 29 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: why when the thirty two year old singer announced that 30 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: she was touring, they was for the first time in 31 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: five years next year. I signed up for the PRIs 32 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: Cell right away, But when I got to the virtual 33 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: line on the Ticketmaster platform last week, I quickly found 34 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: out that I wasn't the only one bringing years of 35 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: pent up demand to the table. Not even eight hours 36 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: in line were enough for me to score a ticket. 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 1: The site was supposed to be opened up for one 38 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: point five million verified Taylor Swift fans. We had fourteen 39 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: million people hit the site. We did sell over two 40 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: million tickets that day, we could have filled nine hundred stadiums. 41 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: That was Gregmafae, the CEO with Ticketmaster's parent company, in 42 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: an interview with CNBC. Yes, Greg, I know it all 43 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: too well. Demand was so high in the pre sale 44 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: that Ticketmaster canceled the general public sale after a record 45 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: two point four million tickets were sold. The whole frenzy 46 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: triggered anti rust investigations from politicians and attorneys general like Meanwhile, 47 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: for those like me, all that's love to do is 48 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: trying to buy tickets for as much as forty thou 49 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: dollars on the secondary market. We have the means of 50 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: almost unlimited production. We have an almost unlimited capacity to consume. 51 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: We need to raise our actual consumption so that it 52 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: matches our capacity to produce. We know that this doesn't 53 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: have supply and demand, two of the oldest concepts and economics. 54 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: But this is swift ponomics, where supplies manufactured and accusations 55 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: of price gouging and monopoly abound. In the early two thousand's, 56 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: late economists Alan Krueger came up with the term ro economics. 57 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: The labor economists who advised to US presidents suggested that 58 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: economic concepts could be more easily explained through the music industry, 59 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: which most of us are familiar with. Krueger often used 60 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: Swift as an example of someone who's successfully used loyalty 61 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: strategies to boost concert and music sales. First of all, 62 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: I think Taylor Swift is an economic genius. She has 63 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: made more money from concerts at her age than Madonna 64 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: did at her age, or Beyonce or Lady Gaga. So 65 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: she's on its tremendous trajectory. And she has done this 66 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: I think by making very good economic decisions. That was 67 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: Krueger in a eighteen interview with the Princeton Alumni magazine. 68 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: Swift has chosen to play only a high capacity football stadiums, 69 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: She's added seventeen extra concerts since the Erastore was first announced, 70 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: and she's even created a verified band system to guarantee 71 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: only the most loyal had access to the pre sale. 72 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: None of that, though, was enough to stop years of 73 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: pantop demand turned nearly in elastic for the millions of 74 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: die hard fans. Not even the fact that Swift will 75 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: be touring the US at a time when many economists 76 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: are certain the country will be in a recession. Swift 77 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: aconomics is it's on economics microcosm, and for now all fans, 78 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:32,559 Speaker 1: including myself, can do is shake it off. Great great, 79 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: great great again. Well, as Augusta mentioned, the saga of 80 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: the Swift tickets isn't just offering a window into millennial 81 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: spending habits. It's also triggered a renewed debate about antitrust 82 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: policies in the US, and particularly where the ticket master 83 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: has been allowed to acquire too much power in the industry. 84 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: Elena Tyler is a legal analyst for the Bloomberg Industry 85 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: Group in Arlington, Virginia, and she wrote an excellent piece 86 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: on all of that for us. Elena, thank you so 87 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: much for joining us very late notes just before Thanksgiving. 88 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Why has this Taylor Swift ticket debarked 89 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: triggered antitrust debates? What exactly is the monopoly problem? So 90 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: it falls neatly into a couple of debates that the 91 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 1: broader an antitrust policy uh world is having in the 92 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: United States right now. One of them is about whether 93 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: vertical mergers are something that the antitrust world should be 94 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: concerned about. And when you say, just to explain about 95 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: what a vertical merger is oh, of course, so there 96 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: are really we think of murders in two ways. Either 97 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: two companies that directly compete with each other in the 98 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: same market merge, and then obviously one of them stops 99 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: competing with the other and the market consolidates. But you 100 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: can also have mergers between companies that are not in 101 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: the same market. They are either supplier and buyer, or 102 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: they are a company that makes a product and maybe 103 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: one that retails it or distributes it. Those mergers we 104 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: generally call vertical because they're in different places in the 105 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: supply chain. It used to be that antitrust didn't consider 106 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,239 Speaker 1: those to be much of a threat because they weren't 107 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: consolidating a single market, but economic theory has recently called 108 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: that into question. A bunch of additional research has happened, 109 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: and we now are no longer quite so sure that 110 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: vertical mergers are as efficient and unproblematic as we had 111 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: believed in the past. This original merger in between Live Nation, 112 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: which is a behemoth in concert promotion for major venues 113 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: um and Ticketmaster, which is the beheaventh in primary ticket sales, 114 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: was very controversial, and the Department of Justice permitted the 115 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: merger to close with a settlement that both required some 116 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: structural changes to what would get merged together and also 117 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: some behavioral promises. Um the businesses combined promised not to 118 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: bully other providers and basically throw around their newly acquired 119 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: market weight. Right that hasn't worked the way one might 120 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: have hoped it would, and so that likewise speeds into 121 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: a current debate that's happening in anti trust policy about 122 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: whether behavioral agreements you know, not to be nasty once 123 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: you're allowed to merge, are really a good idea, and 124 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: whether the best solution isn't to prohibit the merger in 125 00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: the first instance and keep the market power from console alidating, 126 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: rather than trying to tinker on the edges with the 127 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: merged party and keep the worst outcomes from happening. So 128 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: those are two big debates that this plays into right now. 129 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: And now there's a concern that Ticketmaster is becoming a 130 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: big power in the secondary market as well, in other words, 131 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: resale of tickets. So there's a concern there that if 132 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: all of these markets, which play into each other, feed 133 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: off of each other and work together, might create a 134 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: situation where the whole industry is more or less dominated 135 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: by one big firm. Yeah, and it's interesting because there's 136 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: an absolute furore on Twitter. And I'm not someone despite 137 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: having a Taylor Swift mad fourteen year old daughter at home, 138 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: I don't spend a lot of time on the relevant 139 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: Twitter accounts. But I was just I would recommend people 140 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: listening just take a look at the amount of vitriol 141 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: against ticket Master and Taylor Swift herself as kind of 142 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: come out against ticket Master. But I didn't know until 143 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: I read your piece this point about the resale that 144 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: the ticket Master even just in the three months at 145 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: the end of September, did about did one point one 146 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: billion dollars worth of business ticket Master did in the 147 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: ticket resale business. So if you're if you're a fan 148 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: who spent hours trying to get tickets, you couldn't get one, 149 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: But somehow these touts or the resale market markets could 150 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: you are surely looking at Ticketmaster and say, well, you've 151 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: got no interest in giving the ticket to me if 152 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: you can get paid twice giving it to somebody else, 153 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: that's the real concern. It's a puzzle. Somebody obviously got tickets, right, 154 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: there aren't exactly tickets left over and these complaints that 155 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: we see from private parties in US courts have all 156 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: claimed that while Ticketmaster says that it is um cracking 157 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: down on scalpers, cracking down on bots that sweep through 158 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: the system with multiple account and grab a bunch of 159 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: tickets and then place them for resale, that that's definitely 160 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: not where their incentives lie. Buying a ticket on the 161 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: primary market generates a fee for Live Nation, and then 162 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: if the ticket is turned around and resold on a 163 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: Live Nation platform and they have several um through ticket Master, 164 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: then they will generate a second fee. You would imagine 165 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: that the sale that generates two or even three fees 166 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: is preferable to the one that's a one and done fee. 167 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: It explains a lot why the market looks like it does, UM, 168 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: and why it's still frustrating for ordinary people trying to 169 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: click with their actual human speed. Uh, they're up against spots. 170 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: I guess, going back to what you said about whether 171 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: you should be trusting businesses to do the right thing, UM, 172 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: I guess if you're a ticket Master and you do 173 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: the wrong thing and you get on the wrong side 174 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: of Taylor Swift, I mean that it's going to rue 175 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: the day that it didn't make more of an effort. Well, 176 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: it certainly has raised the profile of this specific problem. 177 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: But if Taylor Swift tangles with Live Nation and Ticketmaster, 178 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: she certainly wouldn't be the first big act to fail 179 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: in getting them to change their practices. Pearl jam back 180 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: in the Odds worked hard to try to change the 181 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: way ticketing happens in the primary market and failed. It's 182 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: a pretty tall order, but the Swifties may be up 183 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: to the churche. Well, we've also seen quite a lot 184 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: of prominent lawmakers weighing in, and I see that the 185 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: chair of the U. S Senates Antitrust Subcommittee, Amy Kloba, 186 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: she said she'll hold a hearing on Ticketmaster by the 187 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: end of the year, so I guess we'll you'll be 188 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: watching that space. Eleana Tyler, thank you so much. Thank you. Well. Now, 189 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: as promised, we have some bad news for those of 190 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: you planning to splash out on a new winter wardrobe 191 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: in the days after Thanksgiving. Here's Natalie Pearson waterlog clothes 192 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: roll like carcasses and the waves along the coast of Ghana. 193 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: The country is one of the world's biggest importers of 194 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 1: US clothing. The cast offs arriving by the bail are 195 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: known here as a browny wind or dead white people's clothes. 196 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: What is happening is the fast fashion lifestyle of the vitaman. 197 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: They will go for programs, they print some clothing because 198 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: they know they have a place to dump them. That 199 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: was Solomon Noi, the head of waste management in Accra, 200 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: the capital of Ghana. Some of the imported clothes don't 201 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: get reworn or repurposed. They simply end up as garbage. 202 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: When it rains, waterways belch garments into the ocean, waves 203 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: bring them right back to form a wall of rags 204 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: more than six ft high in places along the shoreline 205 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: of the city. Sanitation crews fight a losing battle every 206 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: day trying to corral Acra's textile waste into landfills. But 207 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: there's just too much, says Noi. So at the end 208 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: of the day, government doesn't have the money to be 209 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: able to implement a fastratcher that is needed to take 210 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: care of the mite man's glueto exactly. It's a disaster 211 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: decades in the making. As clothing has become cheaper, plentiful, 212 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: and ever more disposable each year, the fashion industry produces 213 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: more than one hundred billion apparel items. That's roughly fourteen 214 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: for every person on Earth, and more than double the 215 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: amount of two thousand. Every day, consumers toss out tens 216 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: of millions of garments, many land and so called recycling 217 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: bins set up in stores by fast fashion chains like 218 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: h and M, Zarah and pre Mark. Research shows that 219 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: when people believe an item will be recycled, they consume 220 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: more of it, but textile recycling doesn't yet exist at 221 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: scale globally. It's estimated that less than one percent of 222 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: used clothing is actually remade into new garments. Instead, discards 223 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: enter a global second hand supply chain, which prolongs their life, 224 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: either by reselling them in developing markets or repurposing them 225 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: into items like cleaning cloths or insulation. One of the 226 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: world's biggest used clothing processors is in India's western Gujarat 227 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: state Knam International. Here, forklifts dig their way into forty 228 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: foot shipping containers packed tight with used garments, heating the 229 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: giant bales inside for sorting and grading. Some four hundred 230 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: women work at Cannam's facility, each sorting as many as 231 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: five thousand pieces a day. Sunita Suni Sa who is 232 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: one of them? My name is Sunita. I have been 233 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: working with Kanam International for sixteen years. I first started 234 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: with cutting, then sorting, than grading, and now finally I'm 235 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: on quality control. The work is tough to automate. A 236 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: greater needs to quickly decide the economic value of a 237 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: used garment. Can it be reworn or turned into rags 238 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: or is it simply worthless. It took around five years 239 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: for me to understand which garments were premium brands as 240 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: I started with the cutting job. Now I understand properly 241 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: which ones are branded and which was sell for a 242 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: better prize. Roughly a third of what the sility receives 243 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: has no value. Across the industry, that share is growing. 244 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: The decline and clothing quality has been spurred by fast 245 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: fashion and consumers preference for quantity over quality. Garments fall 246 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: apart after a few washes. Most are blends of cheap 247 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: synthetic fibers that are difficult to repurpose or recycle, and 248 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: there's just so much of it that markets are saturated. 249 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: Clothing value the high and the prices are low. That's 250 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: why at Robert Hall Family Clothings march toward disposability traces 251 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: back to the post World War two period, when companies 252 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: in America began intentionally designing goods not to last so 253 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: that people would keep buying. The fashion instry became geared 254 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: toward getting consumers, particularly women, to turn through clothing ever faster. 255 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: By the nineteen eighties, the preconditions for fast fashion were 256 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: in place. Then one Spanish company perfected the formula. Hey guys, 257 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: welcome back to my channel. I'm so excited to be 258 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: doing this haul for you. I went to Zara and 259 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: picked out my favorite items. It's the beginning of October 260 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: five and it's time to see what's in store. I 261 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 1: found ten hidden Johns from Zara that are really worth 262 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: buying into texts. The parent company of Zarah pioneered a 263 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: retailing model that rolled out ten thousand designs a year 264 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: and continuously cleared out unsold items. The effect was astounding. 265 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: Shoppers began dropping by Zara stores four times more frequently 266 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: than those of its competitors. Neurological research has since shown 267 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: that shopping taps in to a region of our brain 268 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: linked to addictive behavior. Sara had hit on a way 269 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,719 Speaker 1: to commercialized fomo or fear of missing out before it 270 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: was even a thing. And I'm going to share those 271 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: items with you today so that you can go out 272 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 1: and buy them too. Today. China produces clothes so cheaply 273 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: that new garments can be competitive with used ones. That's 274 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: according to Eric Steuben, president of Transamerica's Textile Recycling, Inc. 275 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: They operate one of North America's oldest sorting facilities. We 276 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: have to compete. Buyers all the time would say to 277 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: me things like, well, we're competing against you know, uh, 278 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: you know, cheap Chinese manufactured merchandise. So it's you know, 279 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: in a lot of the major African markets or global markets, 280 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: Chinese manufactured clothing competes with secondhand in these markets. I've 281 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: seen that in first hand in my dealings. Turns out 282 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: that recycling clothes back into fibers for new clothes is 283 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: devilishly difficult. Buttons and zippers need to be removed, Blended 284 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: fabrics must be unblended dyes removed. The technology to do 285 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 1: so is nascent. Garment tags that boast recycled fiber content 286 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: today usually use polyester from plastic bottles, but a plastic 287 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: bottle can be recycled back into a plastic bottle. Many 288 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: times a plastic bottle turned into a puffer jacket. Can't 289 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, experts warn that we 290 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: can't shop our way to sustainability. Recycling will always consume 291 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: more energy and produce more waste than we're using something 292 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: or not consuming it in the first place. Here's Julia Atwood, 293 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: head of sustainable Materials at Bloomberg an ef. I mean, 294 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: whenever you're thinking about the circular economy of anything, the 295 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: best thing to do is to reduce to map. So 296 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: you would have to kill the fast fasht and market 297 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: in order to make a meaningful difference to the emissions 298 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: or footprint of text dollary cycling. Fort Lumberg inanever, I'm 299 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: Natalie ob called Pierson now Judith thank is a senior 300 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: fellow and visiting faculty member at Bennington College. She was 301 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: previously a senior official at the Environmental Protection Agency under 302 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: President Obama, and she's also the founder of Beyond Plastics. Judy, 303 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: thank you very much for coming on. Stephanois one lesson 304 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: of Natalie's pieces that when it comes to clothing, the 305 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: supply of secondhand clothes vastly exceeds what can realistically be 306 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: reused at home or abroad. Is that also the case 307 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: for plastics, Well, there is so much plastic production happening 308 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: every day and once it is used, and it's typically 309 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: single use, um, there's nothing good to do with it 310 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: when when you're done. Plastics recycling has been an abysmal failure. 311 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: There's very very little reuse refill of plastics. So our 312 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: world is drowning in single use plastic clothing. Uh, clothing 313 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: has plastic in it. And unfortunately, plastic production is on 314 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: track to double in the next twenty years according to 315 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: the World Economic Forum. So this absolutely is not sustainable. 316 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: This is not what people think of when they think 317 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: of the need for a circular economy. And when I 318 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: look at my recycling bag and in our part of London, 319 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: it's all mixed up together. Um. And if I at 320 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: any given bag in a given week, you know a 321 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: lot of it would be plastics that we're taking, whether 322 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: it's a milk plastic milk bottles and other things. Is 323 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: it just is that just a fiction to say that 324 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: that all of those plastics can be recycled. Yeah, it's 325 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: a fiction and it's also a lie. Perpetuated by plastic producers. UM, 326 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: we have so little choice when we go to the supermarket. UM, 327 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: none of us have voted for more plastic. But plastic 328 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: is cheap and it is flooded the market. And for decades, 329 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: Big Plastic has suggested to the public, UM, don't worry 330 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: about all of your single use plastics, just toss it 331 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: in your recycling bin. But they have known for decades 332 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 1: that plastics fundamentally are not recyclable. That's why in the 333 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: United States we're looking at a five to six percent 334 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: recycling rate, a little bit higher in Europe, but not 335 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: much high air And I just want to briefly explain 336 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: why this is why plastic is not similar to metal, glass, paper, cardboard. 337 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: All of those materials can be made from recycled material 338 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: and then when you put them in your recycling bin 339 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: or bag, they actually do get recycled. It's the opposite 340 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: with plastics. And that's because there are hundreds of different 341 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: types of plastics. Not only do you have different resins, 342 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: but they all have different chemical additives and different colorants. 343 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: So think of your own home. On top of your 344 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: washing machine, if you have one, you might have a 345 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: bright orange hard plastic detergent bottle, and then in your 346 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: refrigerator you might have a clear, squeezable ketchup bottle. You 347 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: cannot recycle them together. They are two different, different chemical additives, 348 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 1: different colors, and so plastic recycling is a dead end, 349 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: and plastic recycling has given other recycling a bad name. 350 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: I want to be clear. I am a strong supporter 351 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: first of waste reduction, refill, reuse, and then definitely recycle 352 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: all of your metal, glass, paper, cardboard. But you need 353 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: to know that most plastics do not get recycled. And 354 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: is there just on your example, given that a lot 355 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: of the consumer products we do seem to be kind 356 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: of hardwired to make things out of plastic, wouldn't make 357 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: it any any better to be reducing the different types 358 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: of plastics. So there was more possibility that maybe that 359 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: that detergent bottle and the ketchup bottle could be recycled 360 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: in the same place. Yeah, it definitely would be better 361 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: if we had fewer types of plastics, but that change 362 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: is only going to happen when legislative bodies adopt new 363 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: laws requiring this. The plastics industry and consumer brands like 364 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: Unilever and um coke and PEPSI and McDonald's. They're not 365 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: going to change on their own. We need new laws 366 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: that give us a fighting chance to have a more 367 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: sustainable economy. So one area is known as extended Producer Responsibility, 368 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: and that would put environmental standards on packaging. Just like 369 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: we have fuel efficiency standards for cars that allow us 370 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: to save money at the gas station. We have energy 371 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: efficiency standards for appliances so we save a little bit 372 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: of money on our monthly utility bill. We need environmental 373 00:26:54,320 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: standards for packaging that encourage reduction, reuse, but also some 374 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: standardization so you have a chance to actually recycle it. 375 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: And equally important, we need to reduce the presence of 376 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: toxic chemicals in packaging, particularly food packaging. And I guess 377 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: I should ask where the administration is on this. I mean, 378 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: we've had sort of landmark environmental legislation in the summer 379 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: which was more devoted to the sort of the big 380 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: picture emissions um story um is there are the people 381 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: in the administration, maybe former colleagues of yours in the 382 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: in the e p A, who are planning to act 383 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: on any of this. No, the Biden administration record and 384 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: goals on plastic pollution is m I a missing in action. Um, 385 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: I don't think the Biden administration, which I have tremendous 386 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: respect for, I don't understand. I don't think they understand 387 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: the connection between plastics and climate change. They talk a 388 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: lot about environmental justice, but they have not done very 389 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: much to reduce the risks of plastic production in low 390 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: income communities and communities of color in places like Louisiana, Texas, Appalachia. Also, 391 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: there's very little difference between the position that the Biden 392 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: administration and the Trump administration is taking on a proposed 393 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: international plastics treaty. But fundamentally what needs to happen is 394 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: quite simple. We need to make less plastic. It's affecting health, 395 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: particularly in low income communities where the plastic is produced 396 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: or disposed of. It is it definitely impacting climate change, 397 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: It is turning our ocean into a landfill, and plastics 398 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: is a huge recycling failure. So given all of that, 399 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: it only makes sense that we make less plastic. But 400 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: that's the opposite direction that the United States is taking. 401 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,719 Speaker 1: This is not a not a happy message that you've got, Judith. 402 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: I'm sure, but I'm sure it's a realistic one. I 403 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: guess we should go back to the one bit of 404 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: good news that you emphasize at the start, which is 405 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: we shouldn't feel bad about or concerned about where are 406 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: cans and paper and bottles are going, Glass bottles are going. 407 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: Those are being recycled. We have managed a circularity with 408 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: those things. Yes, you know, it's it's hard to sugarcoat 409 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: the plastics message because it is pretty dire. You're you're, 410 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: You're definitely not falling into that trap. Yes, and I'm 411 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: no fun at parties, but especially if anyone gives you 412 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: a plastic cup, I imagine. But anyway, yeah, it's it's 413 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: a scene. Um. But class in the United States is 414 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: recycled at paper and cardboard, ferris metals. So recycling can 415 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: work for some materials, and it also creates jobs. But 416 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: what I am optimistic about is the public wants to 417 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: see change and people are mobilizing to get important new 418 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: laws adopted. Bottle bills known as you know, beverage container 419 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: deposit laws put a dime deposit on a beverage container. 420 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: It eliminates litter of that container. It gets a high 421 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: recycling rate because it's source separated and kept so clean um. 422 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: Some companies are slowly getting the message. For instance, Coke, 423 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: one of the largest plastic polluter in the world, announced 424 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: recently that they will shift to reusable, refillable beverage containers 425 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: by the thirty Of course, that's going to require deposits 426 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: on all of those containers. And we're seeing many small 427 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: businesses emerge that use refillable, reusable containers. These are often 428 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: women owned businesses, UH small businesses around the globe, and 429 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: that is the future. The future is reduction, reuse, refill 430 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: and phasing out plastics. Judy think, thank you so much. 431 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: Thank You's definitely a pleasure. Well, that's it for Stephanomics. 432 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: That's it for my Black Friday shopping. We'll be back 433 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: next week. In the meantime, check out the Bloomberg News 434 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: website for more economic news and views on the global economy, 435 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: and follow at economics on Twitter. This episode was produced 436 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: by Yang Yang and Magnus Hendrickson, with special thanks to 437 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: Mohammed Farouk, Augusta Saraiva, Natalie Pearson, Eleanor Tyler, and Judith Enck. 438 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: Mike Sasso is the executive producer of Stephanomics.