WEBVTT - Which U.S. Golf Courses Still Need to Be Restored? 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.960 Hello, and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.000 is Garrett Morrison, and for today's episode, I sat down 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.840 with Andy Johnson to discuss the state of the restoration 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:14.040 trend in the American golf industry today. But first, this 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:17.400 episode is brought to you by the United States Golf Association. 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:22.400 So you probably know the USGA mainly for its championships 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.000 for the US Open, the US Women's Open, the US 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:29.000 Amateur tournaments, and many others. But the USGA is also 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:31.880 a huge investor in the future of golf. 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So in this podcast, we are going to 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.480 have a discussion about an article that you wrote, Andy Reese, 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:05.080 for our website published this week about the great remaining 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:10.360 restoration opportunities in American golf, so the courses that still 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:14.040 need to be restored even after we've had a big 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:19.200 restoration boom in the golf architecture industry. And so it's 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.320 an interesting article. It really has generated a lot of discussion, 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.440 So we thought we'd dig in a little bit further 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.520 in a podcast. So maybe we could start with just 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:30.760 what prompted you to write this article. 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:34.320 Definitely, Yeah, this has been something I think over the 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.200 last month or so that's really been on my mind. 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.800 As you look around and you start to see, you know, 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.720 the important thing is is clarifying, like, you know, the 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:47.360 article was based on courses that you know don't have 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:52.440 a clear restoration plan in place or a consulting architect 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:56.680 you know, recently hire to to put together a master plan. 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.520 So you know, the likes of Yale, you know, we 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.280 know that's going to happen next year. You know, the 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.880 shutdowns planned and and then over the next two years, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.600 Yale's going to be restored. That's not on the list, right, 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.560 It's it's the courses that you know have shown kind 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:16.040 of zero impetus for you know, restoring their golf course 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:18.720 in the in the recent years and don't have really 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.400 a planned that that I put put on this list. 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:25.680 So you know, as you see news different places Kansas 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.239 City Country Club just hired I think Kyle Franz and 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.480 Tyler Ray, you know, and and these different clubs around 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:34.880 the country. You just started to check off like, oh, 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.960 there's a there's a tilling hash restoration, there's a lookout 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.600 mountain you know is doing work. And then you see 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.120 the work that was done like really you know, pivotal 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.760 work that was done recently, like Oakland Hills is a 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:51.840 huge restoration just because of what Oakland Hills stood for. 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.680 That was the first course that was renovated and the 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.760 first course that had this open doctor type mentality which 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:02.160 diverted away from the class of Golden age that being 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:03.080 restored to Ross. 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.440 That's it. That was like one of the last titans 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:05.960 to fall. 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.600 Really, when you think about America and you know, what 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.560 we have here is we see this you know, trend 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:19.039 that's dominated the last ten fifteen years of golf course architecture. 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.960 You know, there hasn't been that many new builds. The 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.400 predominant work in the industry is restoration. You start to 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:28.080 see read the tea leaves and it's kind of coming 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:34.680 to an end, and you know, the remaining great restorations 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.520 for the most part fall into two buckets. They're either 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:44.720 public golf courses or private clubs that host championship golf regularly. 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.520 And that's really the two buckets of golf courses that 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:53.680 have remaining restoration, and those from those senses, they have 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.760 big barriers that inhibit restoration work. So that's kind of 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:02.440 what prompt the article, and it's something that I've been 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:05.280 thinking about a lot lately, is like what, you know, 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.120 what's going to be the next big restoration and that 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.520 was the idea between behind putting together the article is like, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.320 here are the ones that, like, frankly, are the ones 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.480 that I'm really would be excited about. And you know, 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.680 for you know, most of the ones that aren't on 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:25.479 the list, I don't necessarily know if those should be restored. Now, 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.400 obviously I miss some, and maybe we'll talk about some 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.159 of the ones I miss, But like, that's the other line, 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:32.800 is like what should be restored? 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:34.000 What should be renovated? 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.920 And you know, just because the golf course was built 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.760 from nineteen oh nine to nineteen thirty doesn't mean it 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:40.640 should be restored. 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:43.960 Well, so let's put a little finer point on where 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:47.640 we are in this restoration boom that has been going 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:51.680 on for the past twenty plus years or so. But really, 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:53.839 I mean, it has ramped up in the past decade, 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.760 but it's been with us for I'd say at least 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.400 two decades in the golf industry, where courses are intentionally 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:05.279 restoring original architecture from the nineteen tens, twenties, and thirties, 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.279 the so called golden age of golf architecture. Just look 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:14.159 down the list of a magazine ranking right now. You 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.920 know that's an imperfect measure of what the great important 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.320 courses actually are, but it kind of gets you started. 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.440 Just look down that list and consider how many courses 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.800 have gotten restoration work done lately. You know, Pine Valley 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.719 maybe that could be one that that could use some 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.560 restoration work. We didn't go there because we haven't been 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.919 to Pine Valley ourselves, and so you know, we're just 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.800 judging from pictures. But that's at the top of most 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:44.000 of these lists. Relatively well preserved architecture. Overall, Cyprus Point 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.680 has been well preserved that has not really needed a 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.200 massive restoration at that point. 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.320 I think that an important thing to note too is 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.280 like the types of restoration work, like something that's become 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.000 popular i'd say, in the last ten years with you know, 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.880 in gill Hands does a lot of this type of work. 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.720 Is you shut down the course, and Andrew Green's doing 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.200 a lot of this. Now shut down the course, do 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:10.360 it all in one shebang, you close for a year, 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.440 you open back up. The other school of that is 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.080 what I think Tom dok and Bill Corr did a 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.080 lot of early on, was you know, here's your master plan, 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:23.720 and we're going to accomplish this over ten years. 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:28.040 Yeah, Tom Doak and Bill Corr and their associates have 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:32.680 been very involved in gradual projects like that, consulting we 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:33.040 could come. 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.600 Yeah, and I think Cyprus has undergone that type of 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.560 work over over the time, and that's the type of 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.160 work that you know Oakmont has done. 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:45.160 And yeah, Prairie doing Chicago Golf probably. 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.720 Yeah, Chicago Golf actually did a big bunker renovation last year. 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.920 They shut down in August and or end of August 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.080 and we're opened back up at the beginning of the year. 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.200 Was a was a restoration that flew very under the radar. 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:02.960 Yeah, as Gogga Golf likes to do. Yeah so, But 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.160 just to name some courses that have undergone one of 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.080 those sort of all at once restorations, the ones that 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.880 are really visible and noticeable when you look at the 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:17.400 before and afters. There's Marion is a big recent example 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:22.680 of a gil Han's restoration, Pinehurst Number two, Los Angeles 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:28.920 Country Club, North Course, Wingfoot, West, Seminole, Corn Crenshaw. All 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:33.400 of these courses have recently done restoration work and they've 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.280 kind of been ticked off the list for years. Seminal 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.680 was on this list for sure for years. Wingfoot has 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.319 been on this list of great restoration candidates, for sure, 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.480 and just a ton of them. I think what we 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.480 noticed is that a ton of them have been checked 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.000 off lately and have done the work that they've needed. 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.600 Even a course one that's kind of flying under the 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:56.240 radar is Sciota. 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:57.480 Oh yeah, for sure. 0:08:57.520 --> 0:08:59.760 You know where you had Jack Nicholas come in and 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:05.760 do some changes that dramatically altered a Ross Championship golf course, 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.560 and that one will open next year with Andrew Green 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:10.200 doing it. 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:12.600 And that's you know, like that's the thing. 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.920 You start to go down the list of there's been 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.960 all these courses that you always said, well, you know, 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.640 there's always like the what if the great what ifs. 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.960 There aren't many great what ifs anymore. And that's that's 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:26.760 really an interesting thing. 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:29.119 We're going to enter a new. 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.880 Kind of chapter of golf design in America in the 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.000 next five years, and I think that chapter is going 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:38.920 to be centered around because of what's happened with the 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:43.400 economy with you know, the after effects of COVID is 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:45.520 a lot of the people that have a lot of 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.240 money have a lot more money, and I think you're 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.240 going to see a big golf development boom. I think 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.640 there's going to be more new courses than we've seen 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.480 since the you know, economic crash in two thousand and eight. 0:09:57.720 --> 0:09:59.240 I don't think, you know, I think we're going to 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.040 see more deve development in the next five years than 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:05.079 we've seen since then. And then I think the other 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:09.000 big thing is going to be renovation work. Is you're 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.240 going to see a lot of golf courses that are 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:15.440 you know, that have great piece of land or are 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.920 fundamentally flawed, that are just blown up and redone. And 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.560 we've seen some of that start to leak out with 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.560 the Pinehurst Number four for example, would be an example 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.800 of that. And that's an interesting it's a different animal 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:33.040 because those project projects are much more complex than restoration 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.520 for the most part, because what you have to do 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:38.040 with those projects is you have to undo the bad 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:40.559 stuff and the majority of the time that goes into 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:44.320 the project is undoing the bad stuff to build the 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.080 good stuff. So it's almost like double the work. And 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:51.240 you know, with timelines and different things, people aren't patient 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:55.760 like those those are almost become more work than new builds. 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:57.960 Or at least those kinds of projects are a little 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:01.360 more difficult to sell. You mentioned, and that with renov 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:05.120 sorry with restoration projects that there are kind of two 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:09.240 buckets that are remaining. One bucket is the courses for 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:11.440 the regular golfer. A lot of these are public or 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:15.640 municipal courses that still need to be restored or still 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:19.719 could be restored because they're great, but they've just kind 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:22.280 of lost their way over the years and they haven't 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:24.720 done the restoration work yet because they just haven't had 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.640 the money in time to do it. And then the 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:32.920 other bucket is the championship golf bucket, where the barrier 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:38.719 to doing restoration is often, well, we can't turn back 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:41.760 the clock to the twenties here because that course would 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.560 be too short and easy for these pros that we 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:48.480 host tournaments, and so we need to do something something else. 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.439 And so let's talk about that bucket for a minute. 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:56.280 What are some of the complexities and considerations that we 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.040 have to bring to bear when we're talking about championship 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:00.560 courses that could be restored. 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.839 Obviously, I think that it starts with defending. 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:09.080 Par and the the concept of par that has really 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.720 stricken golf for eternity. 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:13.800 The idea that that. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.320 Par pars obviously changed, and and you know, there's this 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:23.720 conception that rough, lots of rough, narrow fairways and long 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.480 golf courses is the best version of championship golf. I thought, 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.800 you know, Joe Lambagna had a really interesting tweet. Who's 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.880 been on this pod a data scientist. I guess you 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.920 could call them a consultant to some PGA Tour players 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.240 on data talked about you know Albany, which isn't a 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:45.120 great golf course but has wide fairways and a lot 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:49.600 of you know, interesting shorter par fours where you know, 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.079 what's more, you know, entertaining of a golf product one 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.720 where you know, at Albany, to separate you know, yourself, 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:01.080 you have to hit it close versus you know, these long, narrow, 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.520 punishing golf courses. If you hit it to thirty feet, 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:06.280 you're separating yourself from the field. 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:08.520 So, you know, I. 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.480 Think one of the things with these golf courses that 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.080 is a constraint, especially you know, at the top of 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.240 the list, if you haven't read it yet. 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.920 Is let's look at let's look at the article. Yeah, 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:26.559 Number one is Augusta National, Number two is Riviera, Number 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.640 three is Pebble Beach. Number four is TPC Sawgrass. 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.520 So top four are all of these, you know, landmark 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.560 championship courses, and each of them has I think a 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:40.280 little bit of a different conundrum per se. All Right, 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:42.640 so if we want to go in order, you've got 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.760 Augusta National. Now, I don't think that a true restoration 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:48.720 is ever going to be in the cars here, Like, 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.959 let's just put that out there, like you're never going back, 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.840 like and you know, it's important to go there, like 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:59.080 to understand, like restoration is a loose term that's used 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:01.920 for a lot of things. I think where I think 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:06.720 golf fans would be enthused with Augusta Nashvill is if 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:12.160 the look and the style of play that was you know, 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:15.920 the look was abandoned in the fifties and sixties or 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.000 probably the sixties, but the style of play was abandoned 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.520 when Tiger Woods came along. And now if we iff, 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:26.240 I think golf fans and golf architecture fans would be 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.960 really enthused if the style of play and aesthetic of 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.080 the early days were embraced now like the tees, the 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.600 lengthening of the tees, the adding of bunkers, that's fine, 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.800 you know, that's that's what they feel like needs to happen. 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:44.880 But the rough you know, there shouldn't be rough out there, 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.440 Like the ball should roll and roll into the pine straw. 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:50.160 You should be in the fairway or the pine straw. 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.840 That's kind of how the golf course was imagined. That's 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:57.160 what Alisair McKenzie and Perry Maxwell imagined with the golf course. Now, 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.920 you know, and then obviously everybody always points the bunker style, 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:05.640 you know, the right Now they have these blah white saucers. 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.760 If you could get those mackenzie bunkers back, it would 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.720 be wonderful. Now Tom Fazio is the consulting architect at 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:16.200 Augusta National. Now Tom Fazio has done you know, obviously 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.960 he's one of the most prolific architects of his era. 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.560 But you know, he's he's kind of getting up there 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:23.360 in age. So I think one of the things that 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.760 that's an interesting thing to watch over the next ten years. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.200 They're probably going to have a new consulting architect architect 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.000 in the next five years. That's probably a reality of 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.000 the situation. I think Pine Valley is probably in that 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:40.120 same bucket because they Tom Fazio is the consulting architect 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.480 is there as well. So that's a really interesting thing 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.080 to watch. And you know, I think the final thing 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:47.840 I'd say about Augusta National is the is the way 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:48.240 they mow. 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.000 They mow into you know. 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.560 Everything they do is to prevent distance, right, is to 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.440 make the golf course play longer, so it plays more 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:58.720 as the golf course was intended to play. 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.160 But what happens is they lose. 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:04.680 The idea of the ball rolling and off those slopes 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:06.920 into the out of play areas. You know. 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:10.760 The architectural history of Augusta National, as everybody knows, is 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:15.080 super complex. If you haven't read this article, you really should. 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.880 Ron Witten's research project for Golf Digest on the complete 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:24.080 changes to Augusta National. Go read that article if you 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:28.840 haven't already. It's an incredible resource for understanding exactly how 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:33.440 much has changed. It is a kind of compendium of 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.640 the changes that have happened to each hole at Augusta 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:41.840 and there are there's a dizzying array of changes that 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.040 have happened over the years at different times at the 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:46.360 hands of different architects. 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:48.600 Now, I mean there's changes every year. 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.560 Absolutely, and some of them maybe were for the better, 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.560 some of them certainly not. So I think what you're 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:59.280 dealing with at Augusta National is a nineteen thirty three 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.200 design that it wasn't necessarily all the way there. You know, 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.000 it was an Alistair McKenzie Bobby Jones design. It had 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:09.560 a lot of brilliant ideas, but it wasn't necessarily perfectly 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:11.919 suited to what the course would become. And that is 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.600 a course that hosts the masters. Also, you know, when 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.399 the course was designed, the economy was really starting to 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.919 go to put Alistair McKenzie was nearing the end of 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.359 his life. The golf industry was just in a really 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.120 weird place. I'm not sure that the course was as 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.760 fully realized when it opened as a course like Cypress 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.520 Point right where that that was really a finished course 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.040 when it opened. And if Cyprus Point had ever strayed 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.880 away from its original design, we could very easily say 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.080 go back to that. We cannot say go back to 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:47.360 the nineteen thirty three Augusta National, not just because it's 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:51.399 not feasible, which it isn't, but also because maybe the 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:55.520 course wasn't quite its best self when it initially opened. 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:57.800 Perfect example would be like the tenth hole. 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.439 You know, it was a shorter par four with a 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.280 punch bowl green and a hollow and people, oh, bring 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.880 this back, But you know, Perry Maxwell was a pretty capable. 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:08.639 Architect, and that's a great hole too. 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.600 Yeah, and he moved that that hole up on the 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:16.679 hill and it's an unbelievable green site that sits there today. 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.439 Where it is today is where Perry Maxwell move that. 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.800 And now, what's a better hole for championship golf? Is 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.560 the shorter part four with the punch bowl and the 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.160 hollow or the tenth hole today? I would probably say 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.520 that the tenth hole of the day where you're testing 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.600 players hitting a mid iron off a downslope, I guess 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.320 it's more of a short iron now off a downslope 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.720 to elevated elevated severe green. That is a shot that 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.240 you don't see very often now, Like I think that's 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:47.600 a better hole for the modern game, right, And that's 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.679 the complexity of restoration is figuring out what is the 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.560 best version. And I think, you know, if we want 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.400 to move the conversation, this fits perfectly with the discussion 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.160 of Pebble Beach. That's the big question with Pebble Beach 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.880 and why I think restorations hard there is like where 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.240 do you go back to the course is in a 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:12.679 way an architectural mutt, more so than today than ever before, 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.280 because you've got Nicholas, You've got you know, you've got 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:23.160 the Morse influence, You've got the Alison Merckenzie Chandler Egan stuff, 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.880 and then you've got just you know what hosting us 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:30.399 opens does to a golf course, which which just narrows 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.640 the playing field or the playing field that you have 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:38.600 and just father time with shrunk greens and narrow fairways. 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:41.560 Yeah, and you've got the Douglas Grant and Jack Neville 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:47.040 original design, which not many people have actually looked at. 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.400 I don't think many people actually know what Pebble Beach 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.000 looked like when it opened in nineteen nineteen. But it's 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:54.200 a lot different than it was. 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:55.080 You lived there. 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.480 I did live there. I didn't live there in nineteen nineteen, 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:04.280 but I walked around that course quite a bit and 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.840 thought about it quite a bit. And it's a great 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.159 course now, you know, to be clear, like, this is 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:10.560 a great golf course. 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:13.160 And that's the same with Augusta National. 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:16.159 Yeah, Augusta is still great. I mean they still have 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.400 the greens, a lot of the greens at least at 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:22.879 Augusta National that either Mackenzie built or Maxwell built, and 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:27.440 they're just great. Now. Okay, so Pebble Beach, the routing 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.560 was there pretty much from the beginning. The greens as 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:34.120 we understand them now were definitely not there at the beginning. 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:35.880 I don't think you want to go back to those 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.720 original greens. They were pretty rudimentary. If you look at 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.040 the original Seventh Green, for instance, I think a lot 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:43.840 of people would be shocked at how different that is 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.639 and how kind of bland it is. It was just 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:49.920 like this big expanse at the bottom of the peninsula 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:54.520 there now. Chandler Egan when he came in and made 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:58.040 some changes for the nineteen twenty nine US Amateur Chandler 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.800 Egan had worked for Alice Mackenzie on a few California projects. 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.080 For people who don't know, he turned that into a 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:10.560 really cool green surrounded by this dunescape. Now there are 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.520 a couple of pictures of this green as Chandler Egan 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.879 renovated it. They always get trotted back out on social 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.600 media at every Pebble Beach pro am or whenever Pebble 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:24.959 Beach hosts a big tournament, and people obsess over this 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:29.520 kind of doneesy. Look that Chandler Egan introduced to the 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:32.639 seventh hole, to the fourth hole, and a couple of 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:36.240 other holes I believe at Pebble Beach in the late twenties. Now, 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:38.639 I don't think this was ever the right choice for 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.960 Pebble Beach to put fau dunes there. That's just not 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:44.320 the nature of that landscape. I don't think they would 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.879 have lasted if they even were given an opportunity to last. 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:50.359 And I just don't think that's what we need to 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.639 go back to. I don't think a restoration to the 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:56.399 Chandler Egan look at the course is the right path. 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:01.880 But maybe we can consider what Egan and Mackenzie did 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.720 to some of the greens at Pebble Beach. Really look 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:06.840 at those, look at the dimensions of the greens, look 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.840 at the contours, and consider that as part of a 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:16.560 historical renovation plan. Now, there would have to be a 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:21.520 lot of creativity in any plan to make Pebble Beach 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:23.879 meet its full potential. Would there would have to be 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:27.440 some choices than an architect, bold choices that an architect 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.040 would need to make. But I think it's definitely possible 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:32.200 to improve that course substantially. 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:32.680 Yeah. 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.720