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Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are

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Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Today we

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Speaker 1: are putting on a special emergency episode because if you

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Speaker 1: were online at all last week, you probably saw a

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Speaker 1: Representative Alexandria Accacio Cortes used Instagram Live to get the

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Speaker 1: harrowing account of what she experienced from inside the Capitol

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Speaker 1: Complex during the insurrection on the Capitol. In this account,

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Speaker 1: she also shared that, like so many of us, she

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Speaker 1: is a survivor of sexual violence. Now this triggered a

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Speaker 1: real time tsunami of disinformation. Right wing figures like Representative

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Speaker 1: Nancy Mace and Jack Possabik and others falsely accused AOC

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Speaker 1: of not really being at the Capitol at all or

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Speaker 1: exaggerating her claims. So it's true. While she was not

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Speaker 1: in the main domed Capitol building, that building that you

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Speaker 1: think of when you picture the capital in your head

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Speaker 1: when rioters breached it, she also never claimed to be

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Speaker 1: She actur retally said that she was in the Cannon

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Speaker 1: House office building, which is part of the Capital complex

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Speaker 1: and it is connected to the main building by tunnels.

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Speaker 1: Here's what she said on Instagram. I hide back in

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Speaker 1: um in the bathroom behind the door, and then I

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Speaker 1: just start to hear these yells of where is she?

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Speaker 1: Where is she? And I just thought to myself, they

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Speaker 1: got inside. It felt like my brain was able to

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Speaker 1: have so many thoughts in that moment. So AOC never

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Speaker 1: said that rioters were in her hallway. That's a claim

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Speaker 1: she never made. But that didn't stop Nancy Maates from tweeting,

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Speaker 1: I'm two doors down from AOC and no insurrection has

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Speaker 1: stormed our hallway, even though AOC never said they did. Now,

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Speaker 1: in AOC's Instagram Live, she recounted hearing somebody bang on

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Speaker 1: her office door, come into her office and say where

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Speaker 1: is she. At the time, she was afraid that rioters

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Speaker 1: have found her, but she later realized this person was

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Speaker 1: a Capitol Police officer who was there to help her. Now,

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Speaker 1: after this, we saw really ugly trends on Twitter like

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Speaker 1: hashtag AOC lied and hashtag Alexandria Ocasio Smalett comparing her

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Speaker 1: to Jessie Smalett to suggest that she was making up

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Speaker 1: her account despite it being corroborated by multiple people like

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Speaker 1: Representative Katie Porter and Bernie Sanders. Aid Ari Rabin, So

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Speaker 1: this is actually a really good example of how disinformation

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Speaker 1: works in real time. This complete distortion of what AOC

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Speaker 1: said has become part of the public dialogue despite it

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Speaker 1: being based on lies. After this, AOC tweeted, the sad

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Speaker 1: thing about disinformation is that once the truth comes out,

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Speaker 1: the damage has already been done. People have already been misled, radicalized,

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Speaker 1: and believe lies to the point where their hatred is

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Speaker 1: brewed to violence. That's what led to the six and

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Speaker 1: that's what's happening now. And you know what she's right

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Speaker 1: After she bravely shared her story of what happened at

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Speaker 1: the Capitol and connected it to being a survivor of

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Speaker 1: sexual assault. She based a coordinated public disinformation campaign and sadly,

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Speaker 1: this is not an isolated thing for women of color

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Speaker 1: in the public political eye. Leslie Mack is a prominent

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Speaker 1: digital activist an organizer who I work with a Ultraviolet

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Speaker 1: where we create resources to curb sexist, racist disinformation, like

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Speaker 1: our media guy that you can find in the show description.

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Speaker 1: And sadly, Leslie really knows what it's like to face

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Speaker 1: these kinds of attacks online. You're a long time digital organizer, activists,

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Speaker 1: someone who spent a lot of time making the world

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Speaker 1: a better place via the Internet. How did you get

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Speaker 1: into this work? Tell me about your role in this work. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my roles work started in the digital space UM in

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Speaker 1: twenty uh fourteen. I started organizing faith spaces UM online

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Speaker 1: after I joined Twitter. I thought I had been in

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Speaker 1: Twitter for since like two thousand eight or something, which

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Speaker 1: seems like ages ago. UM and I had started doing

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Speaker 1: some legislative organizing that way. We were working in New

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Speaker 1: Jersey to ban the box UM and also subail reform

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Speaker 1: UM initiatives and so a lot of that. My my

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Speaker 1: initial digital organizing work was around legislative work, which was

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Speaker 1: really interesting and UM at the time a little cutting edge.

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Speaker 1: Not a lot of folks were doing it, but we

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Speaker 1: kind of dipped our toes in and started organizing folks online.

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Speaker 1: And then UM, after Mike Brown was murdered, UM feminist

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Speaker 1: Jones had UM kind of put this call out on

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Speaker 1: from Twitter to say, hey, what would you be interested

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Speaker 1: in hosting a vigil in your city this week? And

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Speaker 1: I was like, sure, I could do one in Philly.

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Speaker 1: And I I call that the you know, the moment

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Speaker 1: that the full digital organizer that is Leslie Mac was born.

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Speaker 1: So that That's where I started out, was organizing that

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Speaker 1: first vigil in Philadelphia, UM the National Moment of Silence,

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Speaker 1: And I guess I liked it because I just kept ongoing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're kind of a prolific digital organizer. You're someone who

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Speaker 1: I feel is one. It was one of the sort

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Speaker 1: of when I think about some of the foundational Black

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Speaker 1: feminists who were showing up online, I definitely think about you,

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Speaker 1: and you know, full disclosure, you and I worked together

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Speaker 1: UM at Ultra Violet. And so yesterday was kind of

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Speaker 1: a a long wild day for folks who are online

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Speaker 1: and in feminist spaces online because we saw AOC really

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Speaker 1: being at the center of this coordinated right wing disinformation

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Speaker 1: campaign against her after she really bravely shared her story

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Speaker 1: about what happened in the insurrection on January six and

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Speaker 1: her own personal story as a survivor of sexual violence.

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Speaker 1: And so my first question for you is how do

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Speaker 1: you see disinformation and abuse being linked? Well, they're linked,

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Speaker 1: you know, on two on two levels. And I was

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Speaker 1: talking about this with you yesterday, which is one is

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Speaker 1: um at the personal level, which is that abusers in

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Speaker 1: our real lives, our personal lives, use disinformation against us, right,

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Speaker 1: So they tell us lies about ourselves, about the world,

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Speaker 1: that nobody will love us, and that that's a tool

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Speaker 1: that they utilize at the personal level. And what we're

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Speaker 1: watching is UM public abusers, right, people that are abusing

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Speaker 1: the system, people that are abusing UM, people within it,

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Speaker 1: UM using disinformation for that same purpose, which is to

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Speaker 1: um degrade, denigrade, and deny the experiences, real life experiences

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Speaker 1: of marginalized people. So watching that play out with AOC,

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Speaker 1: you know, she bravely UM not only shared her story,

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Speaker 1: but she went personally one to one to the people,

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Speaker 1: which I think this is such a digital story in

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Speaker 1: and of itself, UM that she took to I G

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Speaker 1: live to UM have this hour long conversation, and the

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Speaker 1: way I saw it play out, I didn't I didn't

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Speaker 1: know she was live until I saw on Twitter people

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Speaker 1: were tweeting about it and they were like, Wow, AOC

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Speaker 1: is doing X y Z And I said, oh, let

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Speaker 1: me let me go over to UM I G and

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Speaker 1: watch her. So I was watching her UM, and while

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Speaker 1: was happening, somebody was starting a chat clubhouse room to

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Speaker 1: talk about it, to debriefit. UM shout out to Tracy

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Speaker 1: Quarter and then as I was watching it, it said, Oh,

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Speaker 1: Katie Porter's gonna be talking about this I G Live

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Speaker 1: on MSNBC shortly. So it was this moment of like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: all of this digital stuff was happening. It was pinging

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Speaker 1: and and and UM creating waves all over the place.

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Speaker 1: And and then subsequently what that's what we watched was

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Speaker 1: the abusers that UM AOC was naming in her I

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Speaker 1: G Live, namely UH folks like Marjorie Taylor Green and

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Speaker 1: really all the insurrectionists that UH and seditionists, UM electives

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Speaker 1: that UM supported UM the coup on on January six,

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Speaker 1: and they've subsequently now tried to discount her personal experience

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Speaker 1: in this harrowing moment. And it's been wild to watch

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Speaker 1: people just blatantly lie. You know. One of her fellow

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Speaker 1: congress UM UH congress people said, oh I'm I'm I

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Speaker 1: was too. I'm two dolls two doors down from her,

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Speaker 1: and there we knows nobody in the hallway, and then

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Speaker 1: we find out that the person evacuated before anything happened there.

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Speaker 1: The travel of disinformation is really disturbing to watch in

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Speaker 1: real time. Yeah, it is completely like a coordinated at

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Speaker 1: the tacks. You're talking about Nancy Mays from South Carolina.

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Speaker 1: So she tweeted, yesterday, I'm two doors down from ANOBC

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Speaker 1: and no insurrection has stormed our hallway. But that day,

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Speaker 1: she herself tweeted on January six, that she was being

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Speaker 1: evacuated because of this threat. You know, she she described

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Speaker 1: it as quote a nearby threat. Um. She later did

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Speaker 1: an interview, I think, on Good Morning America where she

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Speaker 1: said that she was so frightened by what happened that

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Speaker 1: she her that she stayed overnight in her office she

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Speaker 1: was working, you know, her motherly instincts kicked in, and

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Speaker 1: that she was so afraid for her life that she

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Speaker 1: was thinking about bringing a gun with her to Capitol

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Speaker 1: Hill from now on because she was so afraid. And

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Speaker 1: so that's how she talked about it right after it happened.

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Speaker 1: And so it's very telling that now weeks later, after

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Speaker 1: AOC essentially says the same thing that I was afraid

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Speaker 1: from my life. Um, somebody knocked on the door and

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Speaker 1: I was afraid for my life. She's saying that didn't happen.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's really interesting how you see the

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Speaker 1: way that this is coordinated. You know, we saw some

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Speaker 1: another big account on the right tweeting a map with

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Speaker 1: arrows trying to indicate that AOC was not, you know,

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Speaker 1: not in the capital when folk storm and a see

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Speaker 1: yourself replied and said your arrows are wrong, And AUC

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Speaker 1: had a really good tweet where she talked about the

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Speaker 1: fact that disinformation. One of the ways that it plays

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Speaker 1: out is that once it's out there in the public narrative,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if it's not based in reality or

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Speaker 1: if it's an outright fabrication. That becomes part of the

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Speaker 1: narrative for so many people in a way that you

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Speaker 1: can almost never kind of correct. Yeah, you never can

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Speaker 1: pull it back once once the cats out of the

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Speaker 1: bag with disinformation, and it also gets spread in such

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Speaker 1: innocuous ways. Um, it just becomes fact, and it happens

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Speaker 1: so quickly it's really an impossible thing to to crawl

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Speaker 1: back in. One other thing I mentioned is that even

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Speaker 1: you know, AOC herself never said insurrection is stormed there

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Speaker 1: that hallway. What she said was somebody was walking down

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Speaker 1: there and she was afraid of who it was. So

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Speaker 1: even in the um disinformation, they were already twisting the

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Speaker 1: things that AOC said and saying things that she she

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Speaker 1: never said at all. And so the levels of lies

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Speaker 1: right um start to compound themselves. They've misinterpreted what AOC

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Speaker 1: said at the start. Then they're calling her a liar erroneously,

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Speaker 1: and now we have, you know, these ridiculous hashtags UM

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Speaker 1: that are you know, attempting to discredit Alexandria and and

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Speaker 1: you know the real obvious pain that she she was in.

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Speaker 1: And and it's interesting because nobody's discounting Katie Porter's UM account.

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Speaker 1: So she also gave a very similar account, talked about

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Speaker 1: when Alexandra was in her office and what happened in there.

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Speaker 1: She was opening up doors and and I was like,

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Speaker 1: can I help you? Like what are you looking for?

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Speaker 1: And she said, I'm looking for where I'm going to hide.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that will always stay with me was

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Speaker 1: when she said, I just hope I get to be

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Speaker 1: a mom. I hope I don't die today. It's fascinating

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Speaker 1: to watch that two people can talk about an incident,

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Speaker 1: that their stories match up exactly the same, but only

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Speaker 1: one is targeted for for disinformation. That That's what tells

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Speaker 1: me it's coordinated, it's deliberate, and it's um um and

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Speaker 1: it's supposed to be specific to individuals. It's not happenstance. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I mean that drives with everything that we know from

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Speaker 1: the research. We know disinformation is worse for women of

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Speaker 1: color in politics. A report from the Institute for Strategic

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Speaker 1: Diet a report from the Institute for Strategic Dialogue reveals

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Speaker 1: that women of color candidates and political and political officials

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Speaker 1: are targeted on the right by on social media at

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Speaker 1: alarming rate. So this this report found that women of

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Speaker 1: color were particularly likely to be targeted. Um elon Omar

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Speaker 1: received the highest proportion of abusive messages of all the

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Speaker 1: candidates and their studies, and AOC received the highest ratio

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Speaker 1: of abuse of comments on Facebook. So you know, we know,

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Speaker 1: you know, it completely jives with this research that Katie Porter,

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Speaker 1: her testimony, her her sharing her story would not be

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Speaker 1: picked apart and sort of targeted for this kind of

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Speaker 1: coordinated disinformation campaign in the same way that someone like

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Speaker 1: AOC would be. So one question I have for you

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Speaker 1: is why do you think that women of color are

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Speaker 1: such bigger targets for this kind of disinformation online? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean I think we're bigger targets in general, UM

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Speaker 1: and especially for our elected UM. Women of color because

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Speaker 1: we get shipped done and we really are there to

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Speaker 1: stand in the gap for UM, those that are marginalized

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Speaker 1: right in ways that are white counterparts are not UM.

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Speaker 1: So off the bat, we're all already facing UM some

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Speaker 1: some pushback to the work that we want to do

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Speaker 1: in the world, and whether that's in political spaces or wherever. UM.

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Speaker 1: The other side of that is that we're we're easy targets,

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Speaker 1: which is which means that somebody attacking Katie Porter is

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Speaker 1: going to be seen as mean. Um, They're going to

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Speaker 1: be seen is not nice. But somebody attacking a woman

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Speaker 1: of color, it becomes something so it's so okay. And

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Speaker 1: then the pylonic occurs and people are waiting, are just

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Speaker 1: waiting for opportunities to attack woman of color. And and

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Speaker 1: this is something that you know, you and I've been

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Speaker 1: dealing with in digital spaces for you know, a decade

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Speaker 1: plus now, so it's not UM news. But I think

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Speaker 1: those two things or why we become such lightning rods.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the goal is to silence us. The goal

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Speaker 1: is to get us out of positions of power. The

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Speaker 1: goal is to make UM the kinds of changes that

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Speaker 1: we are collectively and individually pushed for not reality, and

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Speaker 1: so starting with attacking woman of color, that's like the

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Speaker 1: that's the front line of that of that a pushback.

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Speaker 1: What you just said completely jives with what you know

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Speaker 1: about disinformation, right, Like one of the points of disinformation

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Speaker 1: is to silence people, Right, So I think that disinformers

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Speaker 1: they don't want women of color to be putting their

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Speaker 1: ideas out into the world, to be creating the kind

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Speaker 1: of changes that they want to be responsible for in

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Speaker 1: the world. And so these kinds of really scary, coordinated

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Speaker 1: disinformation attacks are meant to have a chilling effect on

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Speaker 1: their targets. And so they're meant to make AOC and

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Speaker 1: women who aspire to be like her, other women of

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Speaker 1: color who might want to be activists, might want to

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Speaker 1: be involved in politics, or might just want to put

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Speaker 1: their ideas about these things into the world via Twitter

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Speaker 1: or social media. It's meant to make these people feel

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Speaker 1: so afraid and be so fearful that this kind of

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Speaker 1: thing is going to happen to them that they just stop.

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Speaker 1: They don't put their opinions out into the world, they

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Speaker 1: don't try to shape the world. They don't they stop

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Speaker 1: with their activism online and I think, you know, when

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Speaker 1: we have conversations about disinformation, they often turn into conversations

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Speaker 1: about free speech, and we need to be talking about

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Speaker 1: the ways that this is shut it an attempt to

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Speaker 1: shut down free speech and to make it so that

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Speaker 1: people don't feel comfortable engaging in public discord. Absolutely, and

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Speaker 1: it's so you know, the thing that has been hitting

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Speaker 1: me so much is is how normalized, you know, these

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Speaker 1: types of attacks against women of color elected officials have become. UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was listening to Rashida to leave from

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Speaker 1: the floor last night UM and the hearing around stripping

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Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Green's UM committee assignments, and she said, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to go last because I knew it was gonna

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Speaker 1: be hard for me to talk about it. And she

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Speaker 1: talked about the fact that her first day on Capitol Hill,

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Speaker 1: she hadn't even been sworn in yet, and they there

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Speaker 1: was already a death threat against her, serious enough that

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Speaker 1: the FBI had to come and pull her aside. It

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Speaker 1: was her first one, not even sworn in yet, first

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Speaker 1: day in DC, and she said she was paralyzed, and

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Speaker 1: everyone after that paralyzed. One mentioned her son. You know,

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Speaker 1: she really talked about the trauma of it, and her

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Speaker 1: team had to decide to kind of shield her from

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Speaker 1: it moving forward because they recognized how it paralyzed her.

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Speaker 1: And she said, when she saw what was happening on

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Speaker 1: January six, the first thing she thought was thank God,

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Speaker 1: thank all, I'm not I'm not there, um, because she

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Speaker 1: knew that she would be a direct target as well.

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Speaker 1: And So when we think about, you know, so many,

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Speaker 1: so much work that's been going into getting more women

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Speaker 1: of color to run for office, getting more when women

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Speaker 1: of color elected, the flip side of that is we

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Speaker 1: do not have systems set up to actually hold the

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Speaker 1: space that women of color UM, that that serve UM

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Speaker 1: in that way, to hold them in the trauma that

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Speaker 1: is sure to follow. And and the other thing I

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Speaker 1: want to bring to attention is that are our decades

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Speaker 1: of ignoring this kind of violence and digital spaces is

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Speaker 1: why we're seeing it accepted UM in real world spaces.

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Speaker 1: There's a direct correlation between all of the work that

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Speaker 1: we have been doing UM in digital spaces to to

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Speaker 1: throwing up these red flags for so so long. I

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Speaker 1: know you had Sharine on the on the podcast a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, and um, you know just she's

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Speaker 1: she's amazing and her groundbreaking work to just point out

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Speaker 1: that Nope, this is not just uh general harassment. It's

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Speaker 1: very specific, it's very targeted, and it's meant to silence

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Speaker 1: women of color. All of that is now in the

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Speaker 1: in the in the real world, and it it became

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Speaker 1: normalized in digital spaces. And that's the danger. When things

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Speaker 1: become normalized in digital spaces, it means they're going to

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Speaker 1: be acceptable outside of digital spaces. There's no barrier between

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Speaker 1: the two. We are living beyond the digital age. There's

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Speaker 1: a complete melding of digital life and quote unquote real life.

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Speaker 1: That means that anything we we find acceptable or or

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Speaker 1: treat as acceptable online become the same in real world

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Speaker 1: in very short time. Let's take a quick break enter back.

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Speaker 1: One thing that I wish that people understood is that

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Speaker 1: what happens digitally and what happens in the real world,

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Speaker 1: those two things are not distinct. And I think for

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Speaker 1: so long, and I think we're starting to see that.

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Speaker 1: You know, the insurrection was one way that I think

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Speaker 1: that folks who were unwilling to see this maybe are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I think that perhaps what happens online does have real

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Speaker 1: world impact. But for so long when it was a

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Speaker 1: lot of women and women of color and black women

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Speaker 1: online who were saying, hey, we're being harassed, Hey, this

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Speaker 1: is happening to us, and no one was listening. I

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Speaker 1: think one of the reasons why that was minimized is

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Speaker 1: because it was happening quote unquote just online, and the

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Speaker 1: perception that you could just step away from your computer

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Speaker 1: or turn off your computer or get off social media

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Speaker 1: and it wouldn't be happening anymore, completely completely divorced from

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Speaker 1: the reality that if it's out there in the ether

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Speaker 1: happening online, it's out there in the real world. Right,

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Speaker 1: these words, these worlds are not so distinct and so separate. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and if you think of you, I know, I think

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Speaker 1: if you think of dis info at some point, is

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Speaker 1: an unsharpened pencil, right, just the thing UM can't do

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Speaker 1: very much, but it is. It is a tool. I

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Speaker 1: would say that that what happened was it was sharpened

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Speaker 1: against women of color, It was sharpened against I just

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Speaker 1: think back to some of the early um moments of

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Speaker 1: dis info that I remember, like gamer Gate is a

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Speaker 1: that that entire thing started with disinfo, and so the

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Speaker 1: tool of disinformation was sharpened on all of our pain

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Speaker 1: and all of the attacks that came against us. It

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Speaker 1: was sharpened, It was sharpened, and it was perfected. UM.

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Speaker 1: And so now that it's being used to great effect

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Speaker 1: across the board, not just directed at us, but directed

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Speaker 1: at government generally speaking, directed at you know, misinformation and elections,

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Speaker 1: miss disinformation in so many sectors, um, even around COVID nineteen. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's wild because you know we are. I wrote an

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Speaker 1: article a couple of for b y P one like

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Speaker 1: two years ago, and I think I called it something

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Speaker 1: like black women, um, always playing, always cast in the

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Speaker 1: role of Cassandra, and and the piece was really just like,

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Speaker 1: we're really tired of not being able to see the

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Speaker 1: future telling you what's going to happen, and nobody listening

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Speaker 1: to us. Uh. It gets exhausting, right. I do feel

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Speaker 1: like we have this this like narrative of like trust

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Speaker 1: black women, listen to black women. And obviously I have

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Speaker 1: a shirt that says that. Obviously I agree with that,

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Speaker 1: but we also have to have a very real conversation

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Speaker 1: about what happens when you're expected to be the person

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Speaker 1: who can see in the crystal ball and warn everybody

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Speaker 1: time and time and time again. And I think you know,

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Speaker 1: you and I had a good conversation about this moment

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Speaker 1: regarding AOC but also disinformation kind of writ large. And

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Speaker 1: I do think like this is a moment where we

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Speaker 1: can have a reckoning or a hard reset and say no,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to do this again, where we, after

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Speaker 1: the facts, say oh we should have listened to black women.

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Speaker 1: This is an opportunity to really get it right. And

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Speaker 1: that's what I would love to see. I would love

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Speaker 1: to not just see this be another time where you know,

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Speaker 1: in six months we all say, oh, well we should

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Speaker 1: have listened to these these you know, black women activists

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Speaker 1: or black women social media users, or black women the

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Speaker 1: researchers who saw this coming. But we actually say, oh,

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Speaker 1: people warned us and we did something, we took meaningful action. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And even in the like after acknowledgements, it never goes

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Speaker 1: as far as what you just said. It's always an

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Speaker 1: acknowledgement like oh, we should have known this, right, we

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Speaker 1: should have known this, or we should have known from

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Speaker 1: this more recent thing. And what I'd like folks, that

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Speaker 1: the the acknowledgement needs to go away further back. It

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Speaker 1: needs to acknowledge the fact that the entire ecosystem collectively

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Speaker 1: decided not to listen to women of color, and especially

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Speaker 1: black women in digital spaces, as we were shouting from

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Speaker 1: the rooftops about how abuse was being weaponized, how it

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Speaker 1: was being coordinated, you know, in small ways and large ways,

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Speaker 1: and how every single platform has ways in which we

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Speaker 1: can be targeted for harassment that that they refused to

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Speaker 1: close the loop on. I'll use an example. Twitter lists

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Speaker 1: great lists. It's a great function. You can make a

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Speaker 1: list of people that like to talk about a specific thing.

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Speaker 1: But there's no setting that allows me to stop anyone

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Speaker 1: from putting me on a list. So once a month

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Speaker 1: I go through the list that I'm on, and invariably

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Speaker 1: I find four five that are horrible, that say things

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Speaker 1: that are terrible and have put me on a list

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Speaker 1: with you know, a bunch of you know, great people.

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Speaker 1: But the name of the list is something you know,

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Speaker 1: really egregious and um clearly meant for people to target

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Speaker 1: me and anybody else on the list as well, And

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Speaker 1: so I have to remove myself by blocking the person.

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Speaker 1: They don't even let you remove yourself from a list.

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Speaker 1: By the way, these are small functional things within a

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Speaker 1: system right within within a platform that enable abuse that

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Speaker 1: are very easy to correct and yet doesn't happen. Articles

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Speaker 1: have been written about this, people have pointed it out.

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Speaker 1: Every month I go live and I just like screenshot

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Speaker 1: the list that I'm on, and it's like horrible, And

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Speaker 1: I can tell. I can tell when I start getting attacks.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, gosh, ship, I'm on a list somewhere, like

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Speaker 1: I can I just know it, I can feel it,

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Speaker 1: Like why this tweet is innocuous? Why are so many

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Speaker 1: trolls jumping on it? Okay? You know, and it's it's um.

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Speaker 1: I think that you're right that that it needs to

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Speaker 1: be a much more proactive approach now that all of

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Speaker 1: this data exists, Like, you can't say you don't know.

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Speaker 1: You can't say you don't have we don't have the

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Speaker 1: data to back it up. You can't say that we're

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Speaker 1: not seeing the very real, dangerous implications and repercussions from

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Speaker 1: unchecked digital harassment. And that that's the part that I

430
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,959
Speaker 1: think we need to get to. You're someone who is

431
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 1: a prominent visible black woman activist on on digital in

432
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: digital spaces, right, and so that sounds phenomenal. You know,

433
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: you have a blue check mark. I see people who

434
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 1: are like, oh, that must mean you're rich or very powerful.

435
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: But with that visibility calm, it's like a double edged

436
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 1: sword where you also deal with this oversized you know,

437
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: oversized abusive reaction online like people people. I see people

438
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: pile on you all the time. You'll say something a

439
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 1: now acuus and people it's like people were waiting in

440
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 1: the rafters to attack you. And I think that we

441
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: really have to acknowledge the toll that can take. You know,

442
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: there are people out there who are probably like, oh,

443
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: if you have a zillion followers on Twitter and a

444
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: blue check mark, you must be having the best time

445
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: on social media. I wish I had that. But with

446
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: that kind of visibility and that with that kind of

447
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: platform comes a lot of this abuse and that all

448
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: of this nonsense that makes your experiences online when you're

449
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,719
Speaker 1: just trying to put your opinions out there difficult, and

450
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: we have these platforms really doing nothing about it and

451
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: enabling it. Absolutely. It definitely is one of those weird

452
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: things of um realizing that you have become not a

453
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: real person in digital spaces to a lot of folks,

454
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: and it takes it takes them. For me, it took

455
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 1: some getting used to just like, oh, like, let I'll

456
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: put and put an air quotes up. Y'all can't see me,

457
00:24:54,600 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: but Brodley Mac, it's not actually a person to two people. Um,

458
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 1: it's it's this you know, it's an entity or it's

459
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: it's a thing. And I'm like, I'm I'm just a

460
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: forty five year old black woman and I'm a real person.

461
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: I have feelings, I have a family, I have uh,

462
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: I have you know, mental health struggles I have. I'm

463
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: just a regular person. And yeah, I think a lot

464
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: of the mechanisms UM in digital spaces actually dehumanize us.

465
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: Some of these things that are meant to like, you know,

466
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: amplify us or elevate us, um, like a blue check

467
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: or like a lot of followers. UM. For me, it's

468
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: like Greeks, I'm able to do more work and deeper

469
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: work and have my my work reach wider, but the

470
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: price that you have to pay for that is so large. Um.

471
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: You know, I've left Twitter multiple times because of those

472
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: pylon moments. And You're right, it does feel like folks

473
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 1: were just like sitting with a bag of ship to

474
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 1: throw at me and waiting for whatever moment when it

475
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: was deemed okay to do that, right, because it's it's

476
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 1: clear you can't do it anytime. You can't just do

477
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: it out of the blue. It has to when there's

478
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: a mass of it happening. And I think that that

479
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 1: speaks to the connection again between abuse and disinformation, because

480
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: we're watching bullies coordinate themselves to attack, and this is

481
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: exactly how abusers um act and disinformation works the same way.

482
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: The same people with the same mindset pick up on

483
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: disinformation and they decide that's what they're going to push

484
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: out as the truth. And and you know, as AOC said,

485
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: once it's out there, it's impossible to refute it. Anything

486
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 1: you say will be just dismissed. Oh you're just saying

487
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: that because X Y Z UM and and there isn't

488
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 1: a I don't know what the solution is, but I

489
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: do know we've got to make some strides because, um,

490
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: you know, every week I talked to more and more

491
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: you know, black women in particular and digital spaces that

492
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: are just like, I'm just ready to leave. I'm just

493
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: ready to stop, because um, it's interfering with the prose

494
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: of the reach. Are not weighing out with the cons

495
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: of how this is affecting me, and um, you know,

496
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: we are so disposable as black women that um, there's

497
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 1: no consequences and also no empathy when we are feeling

498
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: and dealing with these moments besides from each other, and

499
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 1: and it just really has to stop. It really makes

500
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: me reflect on my own use of social media, which

501
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: is actually quite guarded. AOC was so vulnerable, she really

502
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: showed up as her full self in this way that

503
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: I really often don't. I almost never talk about my

504
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: personal life or my romantic life because I see the

505
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: way that people will use it to target women of

506
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: color online who do. Yeah, it's definitely true. I think,

507
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: you know, I share a lot of my personal life

508
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 1: because that's how I build my following and my you know,

509
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: my platform. So I still I still share, you know,

510
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: especially about my dogs, and I share about, you know,

511
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: whatever other things I'm doing or working on. But I

512
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: the thing that has stopped my interactions more is like

513
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: I have way less um interactions with strangers then I

514
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 1: used to. Um, I definitely used to like I didn't

515
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,239
Speaker 1: need to know what you're you know, I didn't need

516
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: I would rarely even go look at someone's platform before

517
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: engaging with them around just innocuous topics. And now if

518
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: I don't know you, like I'm not talking to you

519
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: anymore because I don't have I don't know you, you

520
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: could be suspicious and the time and effort it takes

521
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: to you know vet you is not is not some

522
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: time that I'm willing to spend. And so it's definitely

523
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: changed the way that I can interact with people. And

524
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: it's sad to me because I met a lot of

525
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: amazing people in those earlier days where I was able

526
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: to interact with strangers and be like, oh, this person

527
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: seems cool, like what other stuff are you doing, and

528
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: getting to know them more and meeting them and talking

529
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: with them and having them on my own podcast when

530
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: I had one end um, A lot of that has

531
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: just stopped, and I've just become, yeah, a little bit

532
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: walled off in the context of I'll share what I want,

533
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: but I'm really not interested in as much interaction or

534
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: one of the the tactics that I m employees that

535
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: I have specific posts that are meant to be interactive

536
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: or conversational um and I usually do one or two

537
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: a week just to have a conversation with with folks,

538
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: but I've had to systemize it because it can't be

539
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: organic for me anymore. Um, the risk is too great

540
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: and it is sad it's made. UM. I would say

541
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: my interactions with strangers a little less authentic and that

542
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: I'm trying to craft a moment to talk with them

543
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: versus organic conversations happening. And you know, some of that

544
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: is just the way that digital spaces have evolved, but

545
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: a lot of it is just me having to make

546
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: different choices because of the harassment. More after a quick break,

547
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. To be something If

548
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: you didn't have to spend your time and your energy

549
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: and your capacity and your brain space systematizing these things

550
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: because of these abusive platforms, wouldn't it be great at

551
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: these platforms, you know, especially simple things like the Twitter list,

552
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: you know, wouldn't it be great at these platforms listen

553
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: to their users and said, these are the things that

554
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,959
Speaker 1: you are that you are, these are the things that

555
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: you are doing to enable abuse. If you if you

556
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: it will be very easy to fix to stop it. It.

557
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be great if you did not have to

558
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,719
Speaker 1: individually dedicate brain space to managing how you were going

559
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: to deal with this just to show up and like,

560
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: do do your job, live your life the way that

561
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: you want to live it online. Yeah, I mean it

562
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: would be amazing. I mean I have the they we

563
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: have protocols in our house when things, you know, when

564
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: when the attacks really get bad, my phone gets taken

565
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: away from me. Uh, everybody knows to text my husband

566
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: if they need me because I won't have it on

567
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: me anymore. I mean, these are you know, coping mechanisms,

568
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: just to protect my own mental health when these when

569
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: these things um happen, and I know, I mean so much.

570
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: The reason why I have those protocols because I've learned

571
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: them from other black women who were like, Okay, here's

572
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: how you can deal with it, or here's you know

573
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,719
Speaker 1: when I step away and um, yeah, I mean that's

574
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: the insidiousness of white supremacy, right, is that the onus

575
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: is on those of us that are under its boot

576
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: to create situations or to create systems just to help

577
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: us survive, and our white counterparts just don't have to

578
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: deal with that. They do not have to reckon with

579
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: the possibility of simply speaking your truth, meaning you're going

580
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: to have to deal with a whole list of stuff

581
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with your initial um, you know,

582
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: purpose for interacting online, and you know, we do a

583
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: lot of our work in digital spaces, so it's not

584
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: a place that I can step away from. I also,

585
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: you know, center a lot of my work around direct giving,

586
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: and I move a lot of money directly, especially to

587
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: black women and fems um through social media. So for me,

588
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: it's it's not a place that I'm really willing to

589
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: leave because the resources are there and um and it works.

590
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: So I don't have a position of like I'm going

591
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: to step away. I just have had to take a

592
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: position of protecting myself as best I can, sharing that

593
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: knowledge with other people, and then pushing with folks like

594
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: you to to create actual, real change in digital spaces.

595
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: I'm so we we need people like you. Yeah, you've

596
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: you've been individually responsible for funding so many black women

597
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: and fems, you know, direct direct aid to them into

598
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: their pockets. You are so important in this work, and

599
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: so I am glad that you have steps in place

600
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: where you can stay in this work because God knows

601
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: we need you. But it's hard, like we need to

602
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: acknowledge that you know, you're not a superwoman, you're a

603
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: person or a real person, and that you know, it sucks.

604
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just really it sucks. Sometimes it really does. Uh.

605
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: You know. I started doing these TikTok threads on Sunday

606
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: on my Twitter, and I did the first one because

607
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: I really was just like, I need to put something

608
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: up that's fun. I need to put something up that

609
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: is not going to be a lightning rod for anything,

610
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: where I can just interact with people in a fun

611
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: way and bring some joy. It has changed my entire

612
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: countenance because now people look forward to the threat every

613
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: Sunday and um it's injected in a strange way, just

614
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: a buffer around me, and I know I have a

615
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: little bit of time and digital space every Sunday that's

616
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: joyful and peaceful and fun um. And I had lost that.

617
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: I really had lost that feeling of enjoying interacting with

618
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: strangers um online, which you know is such a big

619
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: part of digital organizing. And I needed to figure out

620
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: a way to bring that back into my platform and

621
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: into the ways that I interact naturally. And this ended

622
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: up working. I had tried some other things before that

623
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: weren't a successful and this, this is seems to be

624
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: working quite well for that purpose, and it kind of

625
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: it's this sounds strange, but it's sort of like if

626
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: the temperature has been rising on the stove around you know,

627
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: negative reactions to me all week, Um that Sunday thread

628
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: it like it's like a throwing water on a fire.

629
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: It just points it out completely. So I sort of

630
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: have a reset every week now because now it looks

631
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: silly that you're like arguing and someone's mentions when people

632
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: are like talking about dogs or like you seem weird.

633
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: So um yeah, I mean those are just like little

634
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: tricks that I've started to pick up just to kind

635
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: of be like, Okay, how can I continue to exist

636
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: in this space and not have it, um be so

637
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: toxic to me that I have to like build all

638
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: of these different systems. And that this trick has seemed

639
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 1: to work so far. I'm hoping it will continue because

640
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: it's been really nice to be able to bring that

641
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: that part of digital interaction back in a safe way.

642
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 1: That's a great tip, I hope people out there if

643
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to use it, that's an great tip. Um.

644
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: And again, it sucks that you have to do these things,

645
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: but I'm happy that you have systems in place that

646
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: just protect your health, protect your wellness, and continue to

647
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 1: give you that outlet to to do that community building

648
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: and engaging that I know that you're so good at

649
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 1: and that you love so much. So I'm thankful for that, Leslie.

650
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: Where can folks keep up with you? Online? You're doing

651
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: amazing stuff all over the Internet. Where can folks keep

652
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: up with you? You can just find me Leslie Mac

653
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: m A C. You can search that. That's my handle

654
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: on Twitter. If you just search it in Google, you'll

655
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 1: see my all the things Facebook and UM my website

656
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 1: Leslie mac dot com. You can find me there as well. Yeah,

657
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: I I want to I just want to thank you

658
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: to Bridget for for UM calling this UH extra episode,

659
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: and and thank you for all of your podcast but

660
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: especially for this UM series you've been doing around disinformation,

661
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: because I think it's really UM allowed a lot of

662
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: folks to put into context the long UM you know,

663
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: trail of this work against disinformation. You know, we've watched

664
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: it in this election cycle in a way that I

665
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: think has woken people up to the realities and dangers

666
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 1: of it. But it's really important to put it into

667
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: the context that we've been screaming about this for almost

668
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: a decade, more than a decade, and so yeah, I mean,

669
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: y'all could have just listened to black women from the

670
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: first place, and you can start doing that now and

671
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: we can avoid things like Fort and Marjorie Taylor Green

672
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: and all the other you know, horrible things that have

673
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: stemmed from digital spaces because frankly, somebody like MTG, the

674
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: only way that they've built a platform is through digital space.

675
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, I was just talking about this. How the

676
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: problem really is is that we have for people like her,

677
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: we have made it politically advantageous to do things like

678
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: this online. It's it's not you know, it's not like,

679
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: oh she sounds wild, like get her out of here.

680
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: It's oh, she sounds wild, Amplify her. Amplify her. Yes,

681
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,040
Speaker 1: um and you know, uh, as Bridget is closed, we

682
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: both work a ultra violet. But you know, one of

683
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: the great things about the Media Guide is that it

684
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 1: really has specific um ways for people to not share disinformation.

685
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 1: And one of the biggest culprits in the media they

686
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 1: share disinformation inadvertently and deliberately um in covering it. And

687
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: it's it's wild that they have not seen um the

688
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: light and understood their role in in spreading it. Because

689
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: if you're considered fake news quote unquote by by a

690
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 1: portion of the population, and then you write, you report

691
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: on disinformation and in a specific way, you legitimize it,

692
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: really specifically with a specific audience. And I I don't

693
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: know what the answer is, but I'll say this, when

694
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: I was in journalism school, clearly I did not become

695
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: a journalist because I actually saw when when I was

696
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: in j school, I saw this as the future of

697
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: journalism and it really scared me. Um. I went to

698
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: Northwest University and this isn't the you know, the mid

699
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: to late nineties, and I really I remember saying to

700
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: my mom, I can't be in this industry. This, this

701
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: the track that this is on is leading in a

702
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: really dangerous and scary place. And I don't think it's

703
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: something that I could do for my my career. I

704
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: don't think it's something I could do. She was not thrilled.

705
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: It was a lot of money anyways, Um, but yeah,

706
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 1: I just remember, and it's it's silly now. I talked

707
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 1: about this all the time and certainly age myself, but

708
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: you know, you go to the computer lab to write

709
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: your you know, your stories and stuff for the paper,

710
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 1: and um, you know, people would bring magnets into the

711
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: computer lab to like swipe people's um floppy disks so

712
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: that their stories couldn't get it on time, so that

713
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: they could get the byline the next day. And like

714
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: I remember just being like this is these are these

715
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: will be my colleagues. Yeah, I this is not it's

716
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: not gonna be for me. And UM, it's been while

717
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: sitting back outside of journalism and watching you know, everything

718
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 1: that I felt as a nineteen year old um come

719
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: to pass every every single thing, I was like, this

720
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: is going really itself. Um, the idea of ethics were

721
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: so loosey goosey and not at all um ethical, and

722
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: I just was like, this is this is the one

723
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: of the best derealius of schools in the country, and

724
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: these are the people they've matriculated, and this is the

725
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: attitude that they have towards women, towards black people, towards

726
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: marginalized spokes, towards poor people. I just, yeah, the reckoning

727
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: has been long coming, and I think that the digital

728
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: space has only added to um to that absolutely, and

729
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: I think we see it in the way that folks

730
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: are reporting about the AOC situation. I was really disgusted

731
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: to see it sort of framed as almost like a

732
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: cat fight or a spat between two female members of

733
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: Congress as opposed to a wider, coordinated disinformation campaign that

734
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: AOC is at the heart of. Like this is not

735
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: two women beef and over a man or something, right,

736
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 1: like this is someone So this is people making up cordon,

737
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: making up lies about someone in a coordinated way to

738
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 1: smear them for for sharing their story. I was really

739
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 1: dismayed to see it kind of framed as like a

740
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 1: she said, she said kind of thing, as opposed to disinformation.

741
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 1: But that becomes a question, right, why did anybody feel

742
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: the need to discount AOC's account of what happened to

743
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: her personally? That's the ultimate question is why was that

744
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: something you felt you needed to do. And at the

745
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: heart of that is that is that we go back

746
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: to silence saying of women of color and especially progressive,

747
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: radical women of color, And that's the ultimate goal that

748
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: people will pay any price to do. That ms so true,

749
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 1: and I think, like, what do you think it tell

750
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: like people who are survivors of abuse sexual violence when

751
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: they see the way that the wagon circled to smear

752
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: AOC for sharing her story. What do you think that

753
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: the responses, you know, like someone who would would speak

754
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: up but sees what happened to AOC, What do you

755
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: think that? What do you think that's going to do

756
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 1: to them? You know, it's going to affer there tell

757
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: them that they shouldn't speak out. It's going to let

758
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 1: them know that there will be negative consequences to them

759
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: speaking out. And Um, I think it's it's why it's

760
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: so important for us to show support for AOC and

761
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 1: for all survivors, because there's a survivor listening right now

762
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 1: that's contemplating and she's at a crossroads of speaking her

763
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: truth or burying it and having to deal with it

764
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: in ten, fifteen, twenty years. And the more that we

765
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: can show support for survivors and for moments like this

766
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 1: where AOC is so transparent not only in um speaking

767
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 1: about her experience as a sexual assault survivor, but also

768
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: linking the trauma of that moment to January six, where

769
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: she was also feeling under attack. And you know, Um,

770
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: I'm just put in my you know, Katie Porter, it

771
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,479
Speaker 1: was interesting listening to AOC's account and then Katie talking

772
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: about it on almars O'donald show. Because Katie mentioned some

773
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: details that that Alexandria didn't air, and she said, you know,

774
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 1: uh she she said to AOC, you know, I'm a mom.

775
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: I've got everything you know covered here. Don't worry. I'm calm.

776
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: And AOC looked at her and said, I hope I

777
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: get to be a mom. And I just I want

778
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: people to hear that this is a young woman who

779
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: has a huge platform. She takes it very seriously. She

780
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,439
Speaker 1: does diligent and amazing work, but she's still a young

781
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: woman who shouldn't be made to feel like this just

782
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 1: for doing her job. And I I don't I don't

783
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 1: know what it's going to take. And I think that's

784
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: what's really been scaring me the most in this last

785
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: you know, a few years, is that I have a

786
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: sinking suspicion that it's going to take something so violent

787
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 1: that um yeah, I just I'm just really actually afraid

788
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: for the physical safety of so many of these UM

789
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: elected officials right now. UM, And I don't know what

790
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: to do with that fear. I can only imagine how

791
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: they are all feeling. Um this has been just like

792
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 1: I'm reaching out to you know, my son Louis Crew,

793
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: like what, who's watching Corey? Like I'm obsessed about it. Literally,

794
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: I I find myself just constantly being concerned. UM. Some

795
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: of them I don't worry about because like Iyanna, I

796
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: know she's she's she's got a very strong, uh you know,

797
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: protective system around her. But I just worry. I just

798
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:40,720
Speaker 1: worry UM. As we're watching UM, continuing to watch UM,

799
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: these conspiracy theorists and UM and white supremacists continue to

800
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: take up space, continue to not be challenged. UH. It

801
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: was really disturbing to watch the hearing yesterday. I was

802
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 1: so triggered to hear UM the gop UM representatives, one

803
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: after the other get up and make equivocation for UM

804
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: mark MTGS behavior and these false equivalences that they kept

805
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: throwing up. But I was really bullied by the Democrats

806
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: that got up and and really were specific about the

807
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: harms that were done, about who these were targeted against,

808
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: and why we can't stand for it any longer. I

809
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: have not heard the Democrats speak in such large collective

810
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: voice about this yet, and and it's sad that it

811
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: took someone UM like Marjorie Taylor Green to get them

812
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 1: to do it, because had they been doing this all along,

813
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 1: perhaps there wouldn't be a Marjorie Taylor Green in Congress

814
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: right now. I'm hopeful that in this moment people can

815
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: see this is this is real stuff, really serious and

816
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: has variable consequences. Absolutely, and and UM, it needs to

817
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: be said that these moments always come at the expense

818
00:44:55,080 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 1: of women of color. And I think that, um, it

819
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 1: plays into our disposability and in this notion that what

820
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: we can just take it, and this notion that, um,

821
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: we're really just here to serve as an example for

822
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: other people to to learn from. Um. And that's a

823
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: hard reality that we that we actually live with every

824
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 1: single day, that our lives themselves are an example. Um Uh,

825
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: we really just want to live. I say this all

826
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 1: the time, like I don't know an organizer that would

827
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 1: not be rather, that would not rather be doing something else.

828
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: We are organizers because we are called and because we

829
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: have to be. Um. I'd love to just go to

830
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: you know, Paris, and and go to pastry school and

831
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: and uh bake all day if I had a choice. Um,

832
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: but that's not the world that I live in. And

833
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: it demands more of me because I want my nieces

834
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: to have a better world, and I want, uh, you know,

835
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 1: my nephews to not be raised in a world that

836
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: would have them become misogynists. And I feel called to

837
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: support people that are in need. Um, and so the

838
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: ways in which we are dehumanized in digital spaces that

839
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: we become, you know, these two dimensional um you know,

840
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: flattened out personalities in ways that our white counterparts are

841
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: always seen as three dimensional. It's always about the nuance

842
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: of their experience and for us, everything is black and white,

843
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: and I it's it's a while to um watch um.

844
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: Your sisters just become a lesson for people to learn

845
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 1: their pain, be a lesson for people to learn from.

846
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: And I want that to stop as well. I want

847
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: better for us all, Like I almost have tears in

848
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: my eyes. I want better for us. I want you

849
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: to be able to go to pastry school and not

850
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: not feel like you have to be in this like

851
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: in this fight that flattens us so cruelly. I want.

852
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: I want better for all of us, sames. If you

853
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. Got

854
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech or just

855
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: want to say Hi. We'd love to hear from you

856
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: at Hello at tango dot com. Disinformed is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's

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Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative Jonathan

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Speaker 1: Strickland is our executive producer. Tory Harrison is our supervising producer,

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Speaker 1: and engineer. Michael Lamatto is our contributing producer. I'm your

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Speaker 1: host Bridget Tod. For more great podcasts, check out the

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.