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Speaker 1: It could happen here. Uh, it being a number of things. Uh,

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Speaker 1: this is the podcast about things falling apart and also

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Speaker 1: maybe putting them back together. And assuming there's not a

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Speaker 1: nuclear war in the immediate future, you will probably be

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Speaker 1: hearing this episode sometime in early March. I am Robert Evans,

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Speaker 1: my co hosts as always well as often Chris and Garrison,

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Speaker 1: and that's that's my job for the day. Done. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna sit back and chill. You guys want

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Speaker 1: to take it from here, Yeah, I'll take it from here.

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Speaker 1: We are doing one of our perennial things fall apart

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Speaker 1: but also we sort of put it back together again episodes.

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Speaker 1: And joining us today is j m C from Strange

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Speaker 1: Matter as a new libertarian, socialist cooperative magazine. J MC

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Speaker 1: great to have you here. Yeah, this is really great.

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Speaker 1: So I guess we should probably explain with the magazine

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Speaker 1: is not just in of itself, but also because it's

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Speaker 1: a good lead in into um um into what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about. So we basically, uh, there's five

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Speaker 1: of us as co editors and we're all equal worker

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Speaker 1: owners in it. It's a magazine called Strange Matters. And

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Speaker 1: the point of it is to explore radical new ideas,

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Speaker 1: not just in terms of politics and economics, which is

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Speaker 1: going to be kind of half the focus is trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out like you know, libertarian socialists talk a

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Speaker 1: lot about dual power, which I know y'all talk about

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Speaker 1: on the show a lot talk about building independent institutions

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Speaker 1: under the direct democratic control of the working class to

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Speaker 1: control real resources and are not the state or capitalist firms.

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Speaker 1: But like, we talk a big game, but do we

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Speaker 1: actually know how to do that stuff, and do we

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Speaker 1: know how to do stuff like run like you know,

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Speaker 1: a big company as a as a self managed democracy,

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Speaker 1: or do we know how to like run a city

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Speaker 1: as a as a radical democracy like rooted in neighborhood

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Speaker 1: councils or anything like that. The answer kind of is

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Speaker 1: not really. And there's a lot of like um open

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Speaker 1: questions that we don't know yet the answers to, and

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Speaker 1: that very few people are working on those answers. So

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Speaker 1: Strange Matters is um partly about discovering, uh, those answers,

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Speaker 1: not because we the editors have the answers, but because

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Speaker 1: we need like some kind of space within which we

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Speaker 1: can bring lots of different people different life experiences together uh,

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Speaker 1: in order to talk about the stuff and figure it out.

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Speaker 1: And then the other mission of it is to be

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Speaker 1: a kind of general interest literary intellectual magazine doing the

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Speaker 1: kind of journalism and philosophy and poetry and memoir and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that that uh that UH perhaps gets shut

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Speaker 1: out of capitalist society because it's not commercial or because

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Speaker 1: it's too weird, because it's like, I don't know, historiographical

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Speaker 1: essay about it's been called doon or something like that,

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Speaker 1: you know. And and we think that there should be

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Speaker 1: a place for that, um, just because it brings delight

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Speaker 1: and meaning into people's lives, and it's what we're fighting

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Speaker 1: for more democratic society in order to do so. That's

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Speaker 1: basically our vibe UM. And the answering question is a

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Speaker 1: collective editorial that we that we collectively drafted and edited uh,

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Speaker 1: talking about our political views in particular and the recent

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Speaker 1: history of libertarian socialism UM. And then asked for me,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm a writer who's written for a couple of

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Speaker 1: other places like The Point in the Brooklyn Rail UH,

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Speaker 1: and I also was involved in the d S as

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Speaker 1: Libertarian Socialist Caucus and also the the Yeah yeah, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of history there, trauma, you know, some

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Speaker 1: some uh yeah, but any who, uh and also the

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Speaker 1: Symbiosis Federation UM, which is a federation across Mexico, the US,

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Speaker 1: and Canada that is trying to put together. It's a

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Speaker 1: it's a confederation of local organizations that are trying to

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Speaker 1: do this kind of direct democracy stuff. Yeah. So I guess, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: so the pandemic isn't I guess the perfect jumping in

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Speaker 1: point for this. But I wanna go back and I

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Speaker 1: guess getting into the meat of this piece because I

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Speaker 1: think it's very interesting. I wanted to sort of talk

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Speaker 1: about the origins of like what's called sort of new

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Speaker 1: anarchism and how it's sort of begin to decay after

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Speaker 1: after the collapse of occupying After well, I guess that

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Speaker 1: the sort of kind of revolutionary arc ofens so basically

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Speaker 1: before you do the decline, at least is the way

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Speaker 1: that we wrote it, and I kind of think that

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Speaker 1: it's the way that I would tell it. Um, you

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Speaker 1: have to kind of do the rise first, right, because

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Speaker 1: like there was this moment from roughly the fall of

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Speaker 1: the Soviets in two roughly like two thousand and even

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Speaker 1: kind of lingering in an afterlife afterwards where it kind

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Speaker 1: of looked like anarchism was going to take over the world.

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Speaker 1: And that's a bit of a joke. But it's also

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Speaker 1: not a joke because in the context of like the

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Speaker 1: radical left, which is of course obviously a kind of

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Speaker 1: like you know, dissidents seen in any country where it

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Speaker 1: happens to exist. Um, you know, everything ing receded in

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Speaker 1: terms of the traditional parties because the fall of the

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Speaker 1: Soviet style uh Leninist states uh, either through their collapse

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Speaker 1: as in the case of the USSR, or in the

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Speaker 1: case of their transition to much more like clearly and

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Speaker 1: obviously like state capitalist uh semi liberalized model like in China,

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Speaker 1: like the you you basically had like this total recession,

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Speaker 1: not just in Leninism interestingly, which obviously enough right, like

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Speaker 1: you know, it's basically a global collapse of Leinist style

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Speaker 1: of governments, but also in like social democracy, um, because

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Speaker 1: it's a lot of the I mean, it's actually kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting why it's it's unclear why it is. Uh.

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Speaker 1: People have different theories, but they're you know, people often

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Speaker 1: describe it in in um you know, Fisher's term the

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Speaker 1: the writer Mark Fisher capitalist realism. The attitude in the

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Speaker 1: nineties was that, uh, you know, there's there's only one

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Speaker 1: world that's possible, and it's the best of all possible worlds,

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Speaker 1: and that's the capitalist world, where everybody's gonna have McDonald's

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Speaker 1: in every country, and two countries that have the same

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Speaker 1: McDonald's are never going to go to war, which we

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Speaker 1: kind of found out the hard way this week that

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Speaker 1: that's not really the case. Well, and if people had

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Speaker 1: paid attention more to other parts of the world, they

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Speaker 1: would know that, like, well, there were civil wars in

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Speaker 1: a bunch of countries that had McDonald's. It didn't stop

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Speaker 1: people from shooting each other, as as the United States

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Speaker 1: should tell you, people will kill each other whether or

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Speaker 1: not they have access to chicken McNuggets. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think like that, that's that's a period

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Speaker 1: that has it's full of the most wrong anyone has

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Speaker 1: ever been, Like you got Franchis Fukiyama, like the most

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Speaker 1: wrong person ever You've got. Yeah, You've you've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of sertif idealogues you like, have sort of deluded

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Speaker 1: themselves into thinking this stuff is over. And yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think you're right. That that that sort of plays into this,

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Speaker 1: you know, into sort of the collapse of of of

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Speaker 1: I guess, the party state left, and then the way

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Speaker 1: in which that at, you know, the alternative to that,

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Speaker 1: I guess becomes new anarchism, and anarchists practice, even if

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily ideology with all the groups, kind of

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Speaker 1: seeps its way into the rest of the activist scene. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So basically the story that we tell is that there's

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Speaker 1: some you know, the sepathist of rebellion in triggers these Uh.

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Speaker 1: It's not just that the stufferthiasts are able to create

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Speaker 1: their autonomous territory and chap us, but they it triggers

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Speaker 1: this wave uh that UM. We use a term that

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's used in academia called neo anarchism for this. UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's an anarchist revival in the nineties UM

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Speaker 1: around the world, and it's not just people calling themselves anarchists.

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Speaker 1: It's all these movements that were inspired by the libertarian

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Speaker 1: socialist broadly speaking UM sabathistas UM adopting kind of similar

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Speaker 1: methods in their local contexts in different countries, fighting against

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of things. Initially it's against like

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Speaker 1: you know, neoliberal trade deals, but it also ends up

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Speaker 1: being against like sweatshops, because that's basically what a lot

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Speaker 1: of outsourcing is is. You know, if if they have

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Speaker 1: unions in this country from the social democratic period, they

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Speaker 1: shut down the factory fire, everybody moved it to someplace

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Speaker 1: where some dictatorship is going to shoot anybody who tries

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Speaker 1: to do a union. Uh. And then that you know

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Speaker 1: that lowers Uh. Logistics has gotten sophisticated enough by this

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Speaker 1: point that you know, it ends up being cheaper for

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Speaker 1: the company even though they have to transport goods all

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Speaker 1: across the world and do just in time delivering that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. So um. The a lot of the

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Speaker 1: the the anti globalization movement that sprouted up around the

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Speaker 1: two thousands was like, um, against all these things and

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Speaker 1: usually using the kinds of direct actions, which is when

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Speaker 1: you act kind of independent of the state and not

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Speaker 1: trying to like, you know, convince politician to do something,

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Speaker 1: but taking direct action to get your results, your desired result. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, and all this kind of stuff uh that

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Speaker 1: we're at using direct democratic consensus methods uh in the

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Speaker 1: way that they organized stuff. Uh. That that was that

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Speaker 1: was all basically an artistic and so there was this

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Speaker 1: way in which anarchist methods, anarchist tactics, anarchists like attitudes

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Speaker 1: towards what activism even is, started filtering into all these

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Speaker 1: other movements. And this has been happening a little bit

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Speaker 1: in the eighties too. So there was like the anti

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Speaker 1: nuclear movement had a lot of this, the feminist movement

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Speaker 1: had a lot of this. Um there was a whole

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Speaker 1: um stream of single other ecological movements were actually like

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Speaker 1: pioneered in a lot of ways by anarchists in the nineties,

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Speaker 1: um so, as well as indigenous movements in places like Mexico, Bolivia, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: So the this is the kind of like rise of

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Speaker 1: this neo anarchist movie that we're talking about, which is

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Speaker 1: not just about anarchists, it's about people who act and

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Speaker 1: think like anarchists without necessarily identifying as it. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean that's the kind of thing that I hope we

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Speaker 1: can kind of more encourage as well in the next

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Speaker 1: few decades as those types of ideas can be I

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Speaker 1: want I want to make sure that we can take

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Speaker 1: these ideas and make them very approachable for people, even

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Speaker 1: if they don't use the terms that we might use.

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Speaker 1: You can still kind of suggest these types of thoughts,

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Speaker 1: and this suggests these types of kind of lenses and viewpoints. HM.

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Speaker 1: As much as we're about to get to how this

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Speaker 1: sort of goes wrong fails in substence, Like, I think

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Speaker 1: that was the strength of this movement was that it

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Speaker 1: was its tactics were really easy to spread, and that

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Speaker 1: led to a lot of people adopting me. It led

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Speaker 1: to it sort of becoming this I guess activist consensus

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Speaker 1: that you know, like you use in consensus process. You

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Speaker 1: you know, you have hozontal organizations, you have you do

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Speaker 1: direct actions, you mobilize people. You don't have these sort

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Speaker 1: of like article parties. But that yeah, And I think

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Speaker 1: I think the next part of the story that you

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Speaker 1: want to tell us about, I guess how that fell

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Speaker 1: apart and the consequences of that. Basically what ends up

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Speaker 1: happening is that like there was this moment of our ascent,

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Speaker 1: because I would identify myself as being definitely like part

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Speaker 1: of these uh, the this general of you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I came I hopped aboard a lot later with like

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Speaker 1: Occupy Wall Street, but a lot of the kind of

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Speaker 1: explosion of movements that happened around the world in again

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Speaker 1: not always right. It started with the Arab Spring, which

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Speaker 1: started with somebody seeing themselves on fire in Tunisia and

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Speaker 1: like you know, and then that spreads to um other

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Speaker 1: countries in the Middle East and um, you know, protest

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Speaker 1: against dictatorships and so on. But it starts getting kind

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Speaker 1: of like transported beyond its initial Middle Eastern context. And

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Speaker 1: what a lot of people don't know is that the uh,

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Speaker 1: the Occupy Wall Street movement in North America and like

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Speaker 1: other movements that you know, some of them were called

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Speaker 1: occupy some of them, I'm one of them was my

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Speaker 1: Don in Ukraine as a matter of fact, um, and

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Speaker 1: other like you know, the the Hong Kong, the the

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Speaker 1: the umbrella movements, yeah, the and all these kind of

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Speaker 1: movements that that proceeded from after twenty eleven. A lot

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Speaker 1: of them were basically in a single kind of wave,

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Speaker 1: a protracted wave of copycat movements. Uh that we're trying

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Speaker 1: to adopt the same kind of tactics of like occupying

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Speaker 1: public squares, uh, declaring them basically autonomous and doing like

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Speaker 1: direct democracy in those squares, modeling the kind of society

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Speaker 1: that they that people wanted to create, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: in this moment where it seemed like you could have

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Speaker 1: these direct democratic, uh sorts of movements the the end.

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Speaker 1: In the US, there's like a direct line of succession

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Speaker 1: from like Occupy Wall Street through to like Black Lives

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Speaker 1: Matter through to like the anti pipeline Indigenous protests. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of like shared movement experience, a lot of

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Speaker 1: the same people showing up to it or teaching the

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Speaker 1: next generation UM in those movements. And I think this

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Speaker 1: is something I mean, uh, it's difficult to find like

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Speaker 1: sources on this, but I mean, y'all are involved in

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Speaker 1: social movements. I think that that's like a rough that's

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Speaker 1: roughly a description of of what's happened, right unless unless

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Speaker 1: we're crazy. Yeah, I think, you know, I think I

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Speaker 1: guess what you call the last wave that is occupied

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Speaker 1: ice In Yeah, yeah, you know, like I remember, like

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Speaker 1: that was the sort of mix of I guess two crowds.

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Speaker 1: One is you know, I mean, like I remember it

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Speaker 1: was a bunch of you know, people who'd been an

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Speaker 1: occupy and then also it was a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who radicalized essentially about Trump. Yeah, there was there was

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Speaker 1: a pretty big new wave of people, yeah, around around

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Speaker 1: just sixteen and that, you know, and I guess I

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Speaker 1: guess the other thing that that that's going on through

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Speaker 1: this period is the the the ascension of consession of

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Speaker 1: the right and the return also not just of you know,

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Speaker 1: not just a sort of the fascist right, but of

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Speaker 1: Leninism and social democracy as well. Yeah. Um lapped around

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Speaker 1: like when Bernie Sanders was getting more popular. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think I think I think there's there's you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of there's like two threats there. There

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Speaker 1: there's the sort of Bernie Sanders thread, and then there's

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Speaker 1: you know, the the rise of the rise of the tankies,

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Speaker 1: which has to do with Syria and has to do

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Speaker 1: with sort of this backlash against the justin eleven revolutions

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Speaker 1: that you know, like some some of that backlash turns

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Speaker 1: into like just you know, like aired ones like hard

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Speaker 1: right bobbing. It's never like not a right wing but

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Speaker 1: like air to wance turn into just like fire bombing

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Speaker 1: cities and um and literally barrel bombing, you know, the

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Speaker 1: peaceful protests stuff. Um can overthrow governments if the government

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Speaker 1: is not willing to bomb and shoot people who gather

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Speaker 1: on mass in the central Square because they're afraid of

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Speaker 1: what the world response would be if they did start

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Speaker 1: doing that. But you know when Bashar Alasad did that

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Speaker 1: in Syria against the Democratic opposition movements, Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: that basically sent the signal nothing, I mean nothing happened

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Speaker 1: to us side, right, So that basically sent the signal

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Speaker 1: that like oh he had a stress of years. But yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: right right, yeah, like like you can you can just

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Speaker 1: shoot people and bomb them and like it. And that

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Speaker 1: basically defanged the kind of central tactic that a lot

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Speaker 1: of these movements were trying to do, which is to

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Speaker 1: have like large numbers of people do nonviolent civil disobedience

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Speaker 1: and then through those like direct actions, cultivate this culture

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Speaker 1: of like direct democracy in the hopes that, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: the assemblies that are created in that space could in

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Speaker 1: some way become the germ of the organs that could

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Speaker 1: run society, or at least that's like when it's taken

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Speaker 1: to its logical conclusion. Because usually people who are involved

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Speaker 1: in this, they get involved in it, they think the

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Speaker 1: assembly stuff is really cool, they start learning more about it,

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Speaker 1: they get radicalized by being in the assembly because like

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Speaker 1: when you're in a direct democratic something you're actually making

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Speaker 1: the decisions like together, and then you come to an

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Speaker 1: agreement and you execute the decision. You start asking yourself

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Speaker 1: like why can't we do everything like this? Um? And

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Speaker 1: then um, you know all that that's what directs a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in this kind of anarchistic direction. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons why these movements starts to decline

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Speaker 1: is because they get smashed um the But I think

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Speaker 1: that there's always this other thing going on, which and

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Speaker 1: I wonder how y'all felt about this, like reading it,

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Speaker 1: like you know, there's there was this kind of both

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Speaker 1: like an external critique at first from people like you know,

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Speaker 1: Boskar Sencrove, Jacobin and things like that, but then also

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Speaker 1: like this increasingly over the years in the last half

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Speaker 1: of the internal critiques of anarchism coming from anarchists themselves.

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Speaker 1: Are people in this general kind of you libertarian socialism

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Speaker 1: talking about how like anarchists didn't have solutions to the

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Speaker 1: most pressing crises in the twenty century. Like if you like,

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Speaker 1: if you guys had to say, I know it's like

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Speaker 1: kind of pretentious, but like, what is the most pressing

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Speaker 1: crisis of the century, What are like the top three

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Speaker 1: just off the top of your heads without thinking, what

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Speaker 1: would you list if you have to list three, two

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Speaker 1: or three separate things? Climate change, creeping authoritarianism, and rampant

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Speaker 1: disinformation about basic facts of reality. Sweet? Okay, so let's

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Speaker 1: tackle each one of those, right, Like, what's what's an

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Speaker 1: anarchist got to say about climate change? Well? Okay, disrupt

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Speaker 1: the pipelines, like you know, do uh, Like, you can't

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Speaker 1: have infinite growth on a finite planet, so you have

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Speaker 1: to have like, you know, we we have all the slogans, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean we've all heard them like a million times. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you have the diagnoses of the problem. But yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: But then like, okay, so how are we going to

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Speaker 1: like you know, I guess we're gonna build some co

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Speaker 1: ops and then the co ops are gonna democratized per

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Speaker 1: auction and then we can do d growth somehow, but

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Speaker 1: like also disrupting existing production. But there's like a missing

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Speaker 1: step here, right, because like, you know, the reason why

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Speaker 1: we have all this production in certain ways, because the

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Speaker 1: entire economy depends on it's been set up that way. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So you implied in the idea that we're going to

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Speaker 1: do de growth somehows that we need some way of

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Speaker 1: constructing a different economy, and how do you construct a

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Speaker 1: different economy right through some kind of planning? So really

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Speaker 1: the question is like how do you do economic planning? Uh?

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Speaker 1: Second one, um, I got a skip creeping authoritarianism for now,

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Speaker 1: because that's actually like feeding into the more the ending

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Speaker 1: of the essay. But the but the other one, right, disinformation?

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Speaker 1: Another great question, right, like what do you do with

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Speaker 1: social media? Like? Okay, again, anarchists talked in general a

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Speaker 1: lot about like, okay, we're gonna democratize all the companies

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Speaker 1: because we're democratizing everything. We're democratizing neighborhoods or democratizing cities.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of the same thing, turning everything into

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Speaker 1: like a radical direct democracy. Okay, but if we're going

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Speaker 1: to have social media, first of all, should we like

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Speaker 1: was it a mistake to invent a centralized system instead

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Speaker 1: of the more decentralized internet that created that existed before

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Speaker 1: social media? Right? That's kind of an interesting question. But

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Speaker 1: then assuming that we do, how do we restructure it?

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Speaker 1: Not just in terms of how it's managed, but like, okay,

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Speaker 1: we have the democracy of Facebook or whatever, and let's

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Speaker 1: say that we're the workers at Facebook, what do we do, Like,

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Speaker 1: how do we structure it so that it's not a

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Speaker 1: giant misinformation engine? Right? Like once once you actually have

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Speaker 1: like the responsibility and the power of being in the saddle,

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Speaker 1: which is what we spend so much of our time

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Speaker 1: kind of just trying to do. You have to actually

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Speaker 1: make decisions about what to do. And honestly, there aren't

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Speaker 1: that many. I mean, what do you what do you

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Speaker 1: do with with the within with the utility like that? Like,

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Speaker 1: for example, who ought to be in control of the

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Speaker 1: utility like that? Is it really just the workers of Facebook?

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Speaker 1: Aren't all the people who are users of it? Don't

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Speaker 1: they have a right to be making decisions about it too?

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Speaker 1: And is it just an American institution just because it's

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Speaker 1: an American LLC? Or is it like a global institution

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Speaker 1: because everybody on the planets on it? Um is there?

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Speaker 1: You know, are are there ways that it could be reconfigured,

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Speaker 1: like fundamentally in terms of how users use it that

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Speaker 1: would change the experience in some way to actually make it, uh,

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Speaker 1: make you less liable to misinformation. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: if you try to manipulate people in order to UM

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Speaker 1: you know, not see something that's going to be misinformation,

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Speaker 1: isn't that well, you know, like censorship or or or

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Speaker 1: some other thing that we generally would oppose, right, like

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Speaker 1: the tool of centralized social control. So they like, these

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Speaker 1: are really deep questions, and again this is generally a

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Speaker 1: kind of silence, and of course, you know in that case,

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Speaker 1: there's silence from the social democrats too, and there's silence

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Speaker 1: from the Leninist I mean, well, the Lennis just kind

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Speaker 1: of fantasize about turning Facebook into the tool of the

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Speaker 1: central party state uses in order to crush dissent forever

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Speaker 1: or whatever. But you know, social democrats are like less

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Speaker 1: nationalized Facebook, and it's like, you know, yeah, sure we could,

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Speaker 1: we could do that. And then you know the n

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Speaker 1: S s A owns on Facebook. I'm sure that that's

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Speaker 1: a that's a better scenario. Yeah. I mean, I tend

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Speaker 1: to think somewhat differently about what it means to have

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Speaker 1: an anarchist solution to those problems. Like, for example, I

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Speaker 1: don't I don't see anarchists or social democrats or Leninists

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Speaker 1: having any kind of stopping climate change solution um, because

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't realistically see the organizing potential um

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Speaker 1: capable of actually stopping what's going on in any kind

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Speaker 1: of reasonable time frame. And I certainly don't think that

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Speaker 1: the existing you know, neoliberal structures or the authoritarian structures

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Speaker 1: that exist in you know, other countries or in this

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Speaker 1: country are going to stop it either. So when I

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Speaker 1: think about solutions to climate change from an anarchist perspective,

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Speaker 1: I think about how can anarchist organizing help people deal

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Speaker 1: with the consequences of climate change, And I see to

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Speaker 1: see the potential for actually like mitigating climate change coming

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Speaker 1: more from there's as the consequences of this become more

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Speaker 1: dire to people, if anarchists are better, are good at

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Speaker 1: providing relief and helping people and organizing through that, and

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Speaker 1: eventually there's some potential to actually get people organized to

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Speaker 1: stop the causes of the problem. But um, I just don't.

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Speaker 1: I'm not an optimist of about our ability to stop

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Speaker 1: the worst of it at this point, um especially not

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Speaker 1: after the most recent I p c C report. And

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm kind of in the same boat when

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Speaker 1: it comes to disinformation, um I. And this is not

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Speaker 1: just like anarchists, I feel like lack as you've stated,

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Speaker 1: at a like a good idea about like what do

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Speaker 1: we do with Facebook, what we do with you do,

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Speaker 1: what do we do with the way all of these

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Speaker 1: things are set up in the harms that they do

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Speaker 1: at scale. Um, Nobody and I include the people currently

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Speaker 1: in charge, has any real good ideas for that, because

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Speaker 1: they they haven't. Like I've been working in this space

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Speaker 1: for a very long time, I've I've spent a lot

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Speaker 1: of time talking with and debating with a lot of

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Speaker 1: the folks who are leading minds kind of in the

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Speaker 1: fight against disinformation, and I just don't feel like there's

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Speaker 1: any sort of solution that is an immediate term solution

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Speaker 1: because so many the problem is so advanced as it is,

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Speaker 1: so as I guess that's kind of like where I

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Speaker 1: land on a lot of this stuff is we certainly

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Speaker 1: need to be thinking about solutions, but I kind of like,

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Speaker 1: I think it's less likely that there's going to be

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Speaker 1: like you were you were saying, the kind of debate

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Speaker 1: is between is there some way of like reforming or

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Speaker 1: fixing making Facebook more democratic, or is it just we

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Speaker 1: need to decide that maybe we don't have some of

429
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 1: this stuff. And I tend to land towards that that like, well,

430
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: I think the solution is going to be maybe maybe

431
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 1: Facebook's a bad idea, maybe we should maybe we shouldn't

432
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,479
Speaker 1: have There's aspects of it that are necessary, obviously, and

433
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: I think aspects of things like Telegram and Twitter that

434
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: are useful, But um, I I think the they're also

435
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 1: fundamentally tied to the algorithms that drive them, which is

436
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: also what drives so much of the toxic aspects that

437
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: I think if you're divorcing the medium from the algorithm,

438
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 1: you're talking about something that is very different and longer

439
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 1: than media. It's longer than media. It's it's so radically

440
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: different that it's just it's it's not even useful to

441
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: compare them. It's like it's like it's like comparing Discord

442
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: to Facebook. It's like they're not they don't operate the

443
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: same way. That's the Yeah, that's exactly kind of where

444
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: I where I tend to be on on that. And

445
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: I know that's not like I I to the extent

446
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: that like, uh, that's pessimistic. I guess I am kind

447
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 1: of pessimistic about anarchisms ability to stop the worst of

448
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: things that's happening. Where I kind of look at myself

449
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: as an optimistic anarchist is in the I believe anarchism

450
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: offers solutions when these things go as badly as they're

451
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: going to do in a way that you know, the

452
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: present systems or you know, more authoritarian systems that people

453
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: propose can't solve the worst consequences of these problems as

454
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: as well. That's that's kind of where I feel like

455
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 1: it is can feel a lot simpler to default to

456
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: like the dual power framework of a lot of these things,

457
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 1: because otherwise the problems are so complex that you cannot

458
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: approach them from from from every angle, because you really

459
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: do need to simplify and condense them and collapse them

460
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 1: into something that is more simplified, which often results in

461
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: like a dual power kind of framework for what you

462
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: actually start doing. Yeah, and I think you have to.

463
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: I think if you're an insurrectionist, if you're a revolutionary,

464
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: whether it you're an anarchist or or you know, a

465
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: Leninist or whatever, you have to be looking at what's

466
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: actually happening in Ukraine right now and recognize that, all right, Well,

467
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: to what extent do you think you're going to be

468
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: able to organize people in such a way that allows

469
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: them to deal with thermobaric weapons. You know, in what

470
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: way are you going to organize people that allows them

471
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: to effectively resist cluster musician munitions? Um And I think

472
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: that when you kind of look at it that way,

473
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: which is what it would take to overthrow any of

474
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 1: the large hegemonic powers in the world right now, a

475
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: much more realistic set of solutions is, all right, well,

476
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: let's work on building power by building organizations and communities

477
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 1: that are capable of taking care of themselves in the

478
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: holes that these powers are increasingly going to be experiencing

479
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: because because they too are crumbling. And that's much smarter

480
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 1: than being like, all right, well, I'm gonna try to

481
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 1: get a bunch of my friends with rifles and and

482
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: arm up a couple of drones and and go up

483
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: against you know, people who have access to m l

484
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: r s, you know, weapons systems and whatnot. Yeah. No,

485
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: I think that that's a really great point. Um I.

486
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 1: The way that I would think about it is the

487
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 1: starting with the big picture problems is a bit misleading, because,

488
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: as you said, like nobody, it's quite like that nobody

489
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: has solutions to these problems. Certainly the social Democrats. Yeah,

490
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: you know, and I say this is somebody who's like

491
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: half a social Democrat by temperament. Um. It would be

492
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: really nice if we like did it a little social

493
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: democratic government and they swooped in and you know, did

494
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: like new deal stuff. I like new deal stuff. I

495
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: like w p A stuff as much as the next. Uh.

496
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: You know, um person who likes arts programs and infrastructure development. Well,

497
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: you know, some infrastructure development, not others. Right, the war,

498
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: the war complex we can do a little without. But

499
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: you know, the thing about it is those big problems.

500
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 1: You're right, it looks like there's not going to be

501
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: like a big solution, uh, and that we're going to

502
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: kind of have to cope with the consequences of of it,

503
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: at least at first. Even coping this is this is

504
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: kind of where I think the real kind of substance

505
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: of of of the problem that libertarian socialist are facing

506
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: right now. Even coping would require a greater level of

507
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: organization than we have proven able to muster up to now.

508
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: Not because the methods that we choose don't work. Because

509
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: in fact, as you point out, and as I actually

510
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: really want to forcefully argue, and because because we do

511
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: in the end of the essay, like authoritarian methods don't

512
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: work and can't work for a lot of the specific

513
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: problems that we face, uh, and history shows that very definitively.

514
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: But um, there is also a serious way in which

515
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: even kind of developing these like you know, local highly

516
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: like you know, rooted in a community, uh like direct

517
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 1: democratic institutions that control real resources, scaling that up to

518
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: the point where it actually could start replacing some of

519
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: the gaps left behind by uh you know, U states

520
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: and capitalist firms that are too dysfunctional or too focused

521
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: on their own goals to to to to meet those

522
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: needs that would actually require us to be able, for example,

523
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: to know how to build up a cooperative sector in

524
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: a city, or how to kind of like network the

525
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: tennis unions that already exist, you know, across different uh

526
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: you know, regions, maybe even across like a continent, and

527
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: then construct like the way in which they self manage

528
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: each other or or not each other self managed together

529
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: the you know, the the larger group or it would

530
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: require and you know, there's a lot of people working

531
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: on these problems, but sometimes there is a kind of

532
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: like you know, you'll you'll see this like obstacle in

533
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: the road, because, for example, like what do you do

534
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: when the it might not even be the state properly speaking, right,

535
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: it might be like a posse that's funded by some

536
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: rich billionaire asshole who's got like his uh, you know,

537
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: his notion that some people are just better than others

538
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: and that you should institute the dictatorship of the tech

539
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: bros um, you know, and then that billionaire funding a

540
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: bunch of people who have got now like you know,

541
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: some industrial access to industrial infrastructure, and they don't like

542
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: the fact that you're doing your d I Y like

543
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: you know, commune or whatever stuff in there on their turf.

544
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: So how do you fight back against that? I mean,

545
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: some of it you can fight back against that kind

546
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: of our current level of capacity, but some of it

547
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: does kind of require us to start thinking like, well,

548
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: how do you how do you build up financial independence?

549
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: What like, how do you build up the kind of

550
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: independence where it's like, if we get kicked off of

551
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: the capitalist uh social media, for example, which is a

552
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: great deal of what we use for fundraising, what kind

553
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: of institutions could we create that would be like alternatives, um,

554
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: that are not like the ones that the Nazis created

555
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: when there was a purge of some of them that

556
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: gab like highly dysfunctional, Like you know, it didn't even

557
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: work for them. Uh not that I mean I'm happy

558
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: about that, but like you know, my point is, like

559
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: the same thing could happen to us, So what would

560
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: we do? Um the like they're there are all these

561
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: kinds of things that are more little picture questions in

562
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: a way, but they scale up relatively quickly to at

563
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: least like medium sized questions where we need this kind

564
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: of like um these these because because part of what

565
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: it is is also that like it's not that these

566
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: questions are impossible, it's that they're kind of neglected. And

567
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: there's um there, there's these uh the thinkers like Christian Williams,

568
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: who is an anarchist from the Pacific Northwest, who wrote

569
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: a pamphlet about this called Wither Anarchism. And there was

570
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: another pamphlet, uh an essay and CounterPunch by a person

571
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: named Gabrielle Coon who's an autonomous Marxist basically like a

572
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: libertarian Marxist Marxist anarchist type um called what Happened to

573
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: the Anarchist Century? And both of those essays which I

574
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: highly recommend that people read. They may they make points

575
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: basically like this, you know, like where where the focus

576
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: on how to construct those institutions and the nitty gritty

577
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: of how to do that has kind of receded from

578
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: anarchism um as it's actually proud actist uh init Like

579
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: so there's like a rhetoric of revolutionary transformation, but not

580
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: always the attention to the nitty gritty of how you

581
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: actually can like build resilient institutions that actually like carry

582
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: that through which you know, a hundred years ago people

583
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: talking about like the one big union and the general strike,

584
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: but that's kind of like, um, well a it didn't

585
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 1: work in exactly the way that they were thinking it.

586
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: What even in the most successful revolutions like in Spain

587
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: and b it was also like the there's there's there's

588
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: a certain way in which our tensions are focused on

589
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: other things. And it's not that those things are bad,

590
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: it's just that like there's been this kind of neglect

591
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: of the question of large scale organization and how you

592
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: do coordination, like you know, in order to tackle problems

593
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: that are kind of like at the scale that that

594
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: I was talking about before. UM and so Basically the

595
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: argument of the essay is that in the absence of that,

596
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: like for the socialist movement that emerged after turned away

597
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: from NEO because I'm thinking basically that it had no solutions,

598
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: which I don't think it's true either, but it's like,

599
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, like rather it was true in the moment,

600
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have to be true, but it was true,

601
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: but enough people thought that it was that they turned

602
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: to like the social democratic route. But with the failure

603
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: of Corbin and Bernie that kind of burned a lot

604
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: of people out too, and a lot of what is

605
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: seems like it's coming up now, and I'm wondering, I

606
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: wonder what you guys think of this, Like a lot

607
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: of the people that we see showing up in movement spaces,

608
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: who we see kind of like getting politically activated for

609
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: the first time or whatever, a lot of those people

610
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: are really interested in Leninism and on specifically, because I

611
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know how true that is. That's

612
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: at least that's that's that that that part is not

613
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: true at least at least at least here in Portland. Portland.

614
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: Yet no other, no other part of the country is

615
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: like Portland other than maybe Eugene, Like, Okay, that's that's fairy.

616
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: Like Portland. Portland is a big enough anarchist city that

617
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: there are entire decade long like like into anarchist wars

618
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: that no one else in the US has ever heard

619
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: of that are like the most important thing that's ever

620
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: happened in Portland's Oh boy, welcome to the Green Red.

621
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 1: Let me tell you, Chris, you have just piste off

622
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: sixty people who could not explain to you if you

623
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: gave them a year, could not explain to you why

624
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: they're angry. And I mean, I mean to to be

625
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: to be fair, like I I am an anarchist in Chicago.

626
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:29,919
Speaker 1: When the first time I introduced too of my Twitter

627
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: mutual together, they almost got a fist fight. So like

628
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: that make yeah, that's that completely scans Even with like

629
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: d s A stuff, I feel like there's there was

630
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 1: at least was a trend a little bit to stay

631
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: away from some of the more Russia Communist kind of

632
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: like types of aesthetics and ideas because it is a

633
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: turn off for so many people and it does encourage

634
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: us and it has like encouraging forefront a form of

635
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: authoritarianism that maybe is not great. Yeah, I don't know,

636
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: Like I've seen sort of both friends of walking. So

637
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: I think the last like a year has been very

638
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: different than I think the previous five. I've seen it

639
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: on Twitter, but I don't know how much it expands

640
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: into as I think. I think it's like I saw

641
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: lot ex happens in the d s A is that

642
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: the Leninists essentially took over the International Committee and they

643
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: had this kind of delicious division label inside the d

644
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: s A where like you have like you have a

645
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: part of the d s A that's essentially a social

646
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: democratic machine, and then you have the International Committee, which

647
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: is which is the foreign policy wing essentially run by

648
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: by essentially run by by the Leninists. And I think

649
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think I saw it there. And

650
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 1: the other thing I think I saw a lot of

651
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: that I've seen even from people who are ordinarily not Stalinist,

652
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 1: is what you know, part of what was talking about

653
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: this is the sort of like climate Stalinism or like

654
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: climate house Off like that that is a huge problem

655
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: that you know. I mean, I think I think part

656
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: of it also just has to do with the fact

657
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: that people don't like Okay, so like we we have

658
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: actually existing, uh, climate leninism, like we have it. It's

659
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's China, like the CCP changed, it's

660
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: literally changed. State ideology in in in the mid two

661
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: thousand tends, as you know, as an attempt to deal

662
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: to deal with with within with pollution climate change. It

663
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: did nothing. Like they pressed every pricey it doesn't it

664
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: didn't like it didn't work. Yeah, yeah, I mean they

665
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: did carbon markets, they did. They literally just banned coal

666
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: and entire provinces and it didn't work. They they change

667
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: your contravaluations. I I problem people. Yeah, Like La Late

668
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: lays this out specifically with China to an excruciating degree,

669
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: like like in detail. If you're really interested in this

670
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 1: type of like climate left authoritarianism. They call it climate

671
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: Mound the book, but you can call it climate climate Leninism,

672
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 1: you can call it whatever. But they they lay out

673
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: how it could work and how use cases of it

674
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: have not worked, um to a pretty pretty intense degree.

675
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: If you're interested in that, I would recommend reading the book.

676
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 1: Climate Leviathan definitely influenced a large portion of the writing

677
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: for this show. Yeah, And I mean to your point,

678
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: I don't think that this is the only trend I do.

679
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: I agree with you that out of like the conjuncture,

680
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: there was this um I I think that a lot

681
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 1: of the more like establishment reformist aspects of the movement

682
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: were discredited and that pushed people in different radical directions,

683
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: like one of which very much is anarchism and libertarian socialism.

684
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: I am seeing a lot more faces that are interested

685
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: in in in those questions for sure. Uh. And that's

686
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 1: kind of counter to the trend that I was describing

687
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: from the last like five years of like you know,

688
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 1: people becoming more disinterested because of the real or perceived

689
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: lack of solutions. However, I do think that it's important,

690
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: and this is kind of following on Chris's climate Leninism

691
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: point to understand that there's at least a counter trend

692
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: where a lot of people are have not only moved

693
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,439
Speaker 1: away from libertarian socialism, have not only moved, but they've

694
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 1: also moved away from democratic socialism. And if you follow

695
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: that pattern, which is a pattern that I at least

696
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: have seen within the d s A, within various trade unions,

697
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: in a lot of among a lot of like intelligencia

698
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: type people like journalists, professors, blah blah. You see a

699
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 1: very common set of arguments. And I think it's very

700
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 1: clear that as the century proceeds and the crises get

701
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 1: worse and start killing like even larger numbers of people

702
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: than they already are, we're going to see this argument

703
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: a lot more. Um and and the argument is something

704
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: like this. I mean, there's a quote from a tweet.

705
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: Uh and And you know, one could argue that the

706
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: tweet doesn't matter, but you are naive if you think

707
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: this is the tweet climate You are naive if you

708
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: think climate change can ever be solved without an authoritarian

709
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: government at this point. That's and that's that's the whole thing.

710
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a nasty little tweet because it's ambiguous, right,

711
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: it has this like shocking and scandalous effects. You know,

712
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: we need authoritarianism to to to solve climate change, the

713
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: scandalous you know, bougeois or whatever. But then it's like, okay, wait,

714
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: but what do you mean by authoritarian? Am I just

715
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 1: being hysterical reacity. It's the same as saying you're naive

716
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: if you think that, um, climate change can be solved

717
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: without nuclear power, or climate change can be solved without

718
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: really big hammers, Like, we have authoritarian governments, we have

719
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 1: nuclear power, we have really big hammers, and climate change

720
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: does not be solved been solved. Is it possible that

721
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: any of those things might be a part of a

722
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: theoretical solution that may happen someday. Yes, but it hasn't.

723
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: And there's like, if you're trying to say that authoritarian

724
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: governments are better at dealing with climate change than the

725
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: governments that currently dominate number one, hell of a lot

726
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: of authoritarian governments are responsible for our current situation, are

727
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: climate change. Number two, the Soviet Union, which I suspect

728
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: most of these people's see as a guiding light. Horrible

729
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: for the environment, turned the largest body of water in

730
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: Eurasia into a poison lake. Yes, not not good at

731
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: the environment, you know. And here's here's what's interesting about

732
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: the thing to me. The other thing that it's doing

733
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 1: is kind of signaling that it's like patently ridiculous to

734
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: oppose this idea without specifying what the idea is like

735
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: and like, in other words, authoritarianism, like but like, I mean,

736
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 1: let's let's be blunt, right. What they're implying as a

737
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: Leninist is the one party state, the secret police, press

738
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: censorship in the command economy. So does that help you

739
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: fight climate cheese? That's actually an interesting and a kind

740
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: of like you know, distant five thousand foot view, you know,

741
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: from the god's eye view or whatever, like, uh, the

742
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: that's an interesting technical question. Do these institutions actually help

743
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: or hinder a response? But we're not even having that

744
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: conversation because instead it's this kind of underhanded attempt to

745
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: get you to think that. So again, does a tweet matter? Well,

746
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: I think a tweet matters if it comes from a

747
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: member of the National Political Committee of the d s A,

748
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: because at least ostensibly if d s A is, which

749
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: is who the person who did that tweet? Because at

750
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: least ostensibly if d s A is a mass movement

751
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: as it purports to be the mass movement of socialists

752
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 1: in the US, and you know, and and the National

753
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: Political Committee is ostensibly the leadership of the d s

754
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: which I personally don't believe, but that's certainly how they

755
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 1: think of themselves. Um, then this indicates that the largest

756
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: most important socialist mass movement in the US, at least

757
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: self branded UH has people in its leadership who believe

758
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: that the secret police might help in addressing climate change.

759
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: That's an interesting thing and it's also very disturbing. And

760
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: the thing is this, this person is not actually like important,

761
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: He's a symptom because this is something that's happening across

762
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: the board. And a more intellectually serious version of this

763
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: argument was put forward by the Arxist intellectual and historian

764
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: um a professor of human ecology called Andreas mom And

765
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: people who are really into like Marx Nerds stuff will

766
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: probably have heard, Yeah, what a very good book called

767
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: Fossil Capital. Everything he's written after Fossil Capital is a disaster.

768
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: I like some of the sabotage. It's it's I mean,

769
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: it's a little romantic and impractical. He wrote an ethical

770
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: discourse instead of a thing about like the risk of

771
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: eco sabotage, which is the actual important part of the

772
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: degree to which it can matter because eco sabotage. There's

773
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: this idea on the left that like, what we need

774
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: to do is be targeting fossil fuel infrastructure. And again

775
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: it's like what it's it's like what that ds A

776
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: dude said, like, yeah, that could theoretically be a part

777
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: of but as if it's like nine dudes who do

778
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: it and then they go to prison or get shot. Well,

779
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: that doesn't really fix climate change. I think the book,

780
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: the book A Ministry for the Future really lays out

781
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: all of the all kind of like the best case

782
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: scenario for all these types of things and how they

783
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: can work together to overall trend in this direction. Because yeah,

784
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: that type of like eco sabotage in conjunction with other

785
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 1: like political effects can be impactful on what things happen.

786
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: But it's can won't necessarily be you know, it's not

787
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: it's not as simple as we would like it to be,

788
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: because yeah, it's it turns out a complex world has

789
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 1: complex consequences and complex and and I think I think

790
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: this is you know the trend that Mom was on,

791
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: the trend on that you know, there's there's a big

792
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: environmental authoritarian like thing among among liberals. This is a

793
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: huge thing. In political science was a big thing, and

794
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 1: in ecological studies that was essentially making a similar argument

795
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 1: to to I'm almost making this like, well, okay, you

796
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: need some kind of air quotes vague authoritarianism to deal

797
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: to climate change, and you know, it's it's it's it's

798
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: basically this this attempt. There's like these people have seen

799
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: climate change, but they have no actual solution to it,

800
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: so they wave their hands and pretend that like this,

801
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: like you know, the state is going to descend from

802
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 1: this guy and save them, and it's not. And I

803
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: think that's you know, I think I think we're we're

804
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: sort of I don't know, I think as we just

805
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: I guess kind of wrap this up because we unfortunately

806
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: they're running out of time. But you know, this like

807
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: this exact moment like like these like few weeks are

808
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 1: this moment of incredible like rupture on the left right,

809
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 1: because we we have we've had we've had in some

810
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: way social democrats be discredited by the fact that like

811
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: Corbin and Sanders both lost right their political project has

812
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: been discredited. Um, we've had a serious sort of anexist failures.

813
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 1: But then you know, and in the last couple of weeks, right,

814
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: it was all of the sort of big state like

815
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 1: authoritarian people like tied themselves to a bunch of imperialists

816
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: and you know, May staked their whole entire politics off

817
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: of them being the anti imperialist class. And then you know,

818
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,479
Speaker 1: the state, who's like a bunch of their press, people

819
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: like literally work for right and who who they've been

820
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: arguing like is is the contramperist powers does imperialism? And

821
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: so like, Yeah, I think we have this moment where

822
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: everything is in chaos in which we have to be

823
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 1: the ones that that that have solutions or have or

824
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: have the tools to build them. And I think that's

825
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: why that's why this project is important, because that's that's

826
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: something that we need in this exact moment. Yeah, I

827
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: think there's a tremendous value in being humble about seeking

828
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: out solutions to these questions and not doing what so

829
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: many do on the left and pretend that their tendency

830
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,240
Speaker 1: has an absolute answer, because all we have is theories.

831
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: And the reason I know that to a point of

832
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: certainty is that no one has solved any of these

833
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: problems yet absolutely, And and so there is a tremendous

834
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: degree of humility that people need to have in terms

835
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: of like, all right, well, we are attempting to arrive

836
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: at the conclusions that can lead us to a better world,

837
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: as opposed to we are trying to force through this

838
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: thing we know will work. Um, because you don't, you know,

839
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: if you're a Marxist leninist, and you think that we

840
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: need climate MAU, you don't know that that will work

841
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: because it hasn't yet. And if you're an anarchist who

842
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: thinks the solution is bombing as many oil refineries as

843
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: you possibly can, well, you don't know that you're ever

844
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: going to get enough people on board for that to

845
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: mean anything. Um. And I think that there's the conversations

846
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 1: that we need to be having. I think it's it's

847
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 1: important to see them as conversations as opposed to polemics

848
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 1: aimed at just getting people in line behind this shining

849
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: vision of a of a clear set of steps. Um.

850
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: It's important to envision the end goal. I say that

851
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: a lot. You know, we need to be looking and

852
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 1: and accepting the possibility of a better future, but it's

853
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: important not to be dogmatic about the road to get

854
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: there because nobody, nobody really has a clear idea of

855
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: what that looks like. Yeah, So the piece ends up,

856
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: and if you want to see the ending of it,

857
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: it'll it'll be up in um in sometime in the

858
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: next couple of weeks. But the basic gist of where

859
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: it goes is precisely to the practical question, right, Instead

860
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: of like making these like polemical arguments that are rooted

861
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: more in like kind of like what tribe you've decided

862
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: to identify with within the broad family of socialism than

863
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: in like actually trying to like solve problems for the

864
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: people around you, right, or help contribute to the solutions.

865
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: Like it's actually what we want to ask is like,

866
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:31,399
Speaker 1: if we have like the giant ecological crisis, Uh, how

867
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: do you how do you actually do it? Is it

868
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: by trying to force people from the top down to

869
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: do it as Um under his momb kind of draws

870
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: on the failed uh policies of war communism as and

871
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: inspiration for that. Or is it potentially by having like

872
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: democrats democratized institutions that incentivize people with carrots instead of sticks,

873
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: Like Naomi Klein basically uncovered a want of her journalism

874
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: and this changes everything. So this is kind of like

875
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: the debate that we have to start having in order

876
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 1: to be able to together formulate the kinds of solutions. Yeah, alright,

877
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: well I think that's gonna do it for for us today. Um,

878
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: what do we what do we we do? You got

879
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: you guys gotta gotta gotta plug You want to throw up,

880
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: throw up before we roll out. Yeah, if if you

881
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: want to follow us at at Strange Underscore Matters UM

882
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: on Twitter. UM. We also have a Facebook and you

883
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: can read our articles at Strange Matters dot co op,

884
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: which is our website. Uh and if anything that you

885
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,359
Speaker 1: read there that you've heard here inspires you at all,

886
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 1: please consider donating. We're going to be in the next

887
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Speaker 1: month raising money uh for for the magazine and we

888
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Speaker 1: want to pare writers above market rate because we think

889
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: market rates too low. So but in order to actually

890
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: do that, and none of the money is going to

891
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: the editors from the fundraisers, so if if, if we're

892
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: going to be able to do that, we've got to

893
00:48:54,520 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: meet our fundraising target. All right, Well support them and um,

894
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: you know, figure out how to save the world. It's

895
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: it's up to you. And I'm speaking to exactly one

896
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: person right now and no one else, but I'm not

897
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 1: going to be more specific. It could happen here as

898
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. Well more podcasts from

899
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone Media dot

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00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: com or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: find sources for it could happen here. Updated monthly at

903
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