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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain rang And. Each week on Beyond Contact,
Speaker 3: we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from
Speaker 3: the newest cases as we talk with the top experts.
Speaker 3: Welcome to another episode of Beyond Contact. I am Captain
Speaker 3: Ron and today I have the pleasure of speaking with
Speaker 3: mister Kevin Randall. Kevin's retired lieutenant colonel who served in
Speaker 3: Vietnam as a helicopter pilot and in Iraq as a
Speaker 3: battalion intelligence officer. He is simply a prolific author who's
Speaker 3: written over one hundred and twenty five books. He's written
Speaker 3: countless articles for print, and even has an ongoing blog.
Speaker 3: He can be heard every week on Coast to Coast AM.
Speaker 3: As one of the pre eminent experts in our community,
Speaker 3: we all owe him a debt of gratitude for all
Speaker 3: his countless hours of investigating various cases over the last
Speaker 3: fifty years plus. He's tracked down loads of information and
Speaker 3: most importantly, facts on various cases in the UFO community.
Speaker 3: Hey Kevin, welcome sir to beyond contact.
Speaker 4: Hi you doing.
Speaker 5: I'm glad to be here, finally excellent.
Speaker 4: I must tell you how much I appreciate you, or,
Speaker 4: as you put it, dispassionate research into many of these
Speaker 4: UFO cases. I was just on actually with George Nory
Speaker 4: last week and I shared that I felt, from my view,
Speaker 4: many of the people in the UFO community often jump
Speaker 4: too quickly to say it's aliens, or they're too quick
Speaker 4: to believe a story. On the other hand, many people
Speaker 4: outside of our community are too quick to dismiss everything
Speaker 4: out of hand. So I do love how seriously you
Speaker 4: scrutinize each detail and get to the bottom of these things.
Speaker 4: These cases aren't so solid anymore once you get to
Speaker 4: the bottom of them, right, there.
Speaker 5: Is always an ongoing investigation. I think some of the
Speaker 5: older cases, some of the really prominent cases that we've
Speaker 5: been talking about, once you get access to all the
Speaker 5: information and through the Internet and other contacts, we now
Speaker 5: were able to do that where we hadn't had that
Speaker 5: opportunity before. We learned things about those cases that call
Speaker 5: them into question. So yeah, there is there are problems
Speaker 5: like that. They're also cases where we were able to
Speaker 5: solidify them and provide additional information corroboration, so it works
Speaker 5: both ways.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And of course we only need one to be genuine, right,
Speaker 4: I mean, that's the thing, so I'd rather eliminate all
Speaker 4: these that don't apply, so we get down to the
Speaker 4: meat of it. You know, when you get to the
Speaker 4: bottom of a case and you feel it's not genuine,
Speaker 4: do you think that they're lying in your view, or
Speaker 4: maybe they're trying to get fame or money or something,
Speaker 4: or do you find that usually they think it's genuine
Speaker 4: and they're just making a misidentification.
Speaker 5: Perhaps, yes, all the above. Certainly there's part of that
Speaker 5: where people are searching for the spotlight, which is a
Speaker 5: powerful draw to get themselves mentioned in the newspapers or
Speaker 5: interviewed for documentaries. There is a belief by some that
Speaker 5: if you get into the right area, there might be
Speaker 5: great deals of money to be earned in that way.
Speaker 5: And there's some people who just make legitimate mistakes and
Speaker 5: are convinced they've seen something off world or something on you,
Speaker 5: and we can look at it and say, well, this
Speaker 5: is what happened. The best example of that is a
Speaker 5: case from Utah, and the researcher was told about a
Speaker 5: woman who had seen a hovering UFO and behind the
Speaker 5: cockpit windows or whatever, she could see the alien creatures.
Speaker 5: And they went out to the location the next day
Speaker 5: where she had made the siding, and lo and behold,
Speaker 5: the thing was back. Frank Salisbury went out and in
Speaker 5: the woods a little bit of ways he found some
Speaker 5: teenagers who were launching those old hot air balloons that
Speaker 5: were prevalent in the late seventies and eighties, and he
Speaker 5: asked them, were you guys here last night? And they
Speaker 5: said yes, And he said, well, I've now saw him
Speaker 5: the siding. And he went back and talked to the
Speaker 5: woman he said, who'd identified originally that the thing is
Speaker 5: what she'd seen the night before. I said, no, no,
Speaker 5: that's not what I had seen. So she was convinced
Speaker 5: she had seen something off worldly. We have an explanation,
Speaker 5: she just was not willing to accept it. So it's
Speaker 5: a little bit of everything, I think when you get
Speaker 5: into it, the other side of the corner of the
Speaker 5: people who don't want to be associated with UFOs and
Speaker 5: don't want their nagas imagine it, or t telling a
Speaker 5: story that they feel needs to be told, but without
Speaker 5: the ability to name the source, and it loses some
Speaker 5: of its credibility.
Speaker 4: And I understand today that you know, with social media
Speaker 4: and whatnot, the proliferation of all these sort of tools,
Speaker 4: I think that people do want notoriety or want to
Speaker 4: go viral or whatever. But what about these cases from
Speaker 4: the fifties, sixties and seventies. Do you think there were
Speaker 4: a lot of people still trying to do hoaxes or lying?
Speaker 4: Was there still enough quote unquote fame.
Speaker 5: Even though we didn't have social media back then, there
Speaker 5: was a certain desire to either get their names in
Speaker 5: the newspaper or to find themselves on television. And it
Speaker 5: worked for some people, and it didn't work for others,
Speaker 5: but there was some of that going on. When we've
Speaker 5: chased some of the cases down. Ninety nine percent of
Speaker 5: the picture were taken by teenage boys, and ninety nine
Speaker 5: percent of those were hoaxes. Go and what we found
Speaker 5: is later in life they come forward and they say, yeah,
Speaker 5: you know, I was young and foolish and I thought
Speaker 5: it would be a great joke. And sometimes he got
Speaker 5: out of hand, and sometimes it was designed specifically to
Speaker 5: get them some kind of local notoriety, So you have
Speaker 5: to take a look at that. One of the exceptions
Speaker 5: would be Carl Hart, who took photographs of the Lubbic
Speaker 5: lights back in September of nineteen fifty one. I was
Speaker 5: able to interview him in the mid nineteen nineties. I
Speaker 5: was in Lubbock doing research and on a lark, looked
Speaker 5: his name up in the phone book and there it was.
Speaker 5: So I called him on the phone to chat with
Speaker 5: him about it, and he said he still didn't know
Speaker 5: what he had photographed. He was still confused by it.
Speaker 5: So that would be the exception for the rule. I
Speaker 5: think the pictures are interesting and show a V shaped
Speaker 5: formation flying over Lubbic, Texas, who was described literally by
Speaker 5: hundreds of people over a period of several weeks back
Speaker 5: in the early nineteen fifties, and he was able to
Speaker 5: get pictures of these of the formation. There have been
Speaker 5: others who say, sid, well, it's a hoax. He made
Speaker 5: the whole thing up. I'm thinking by the time you
Speaker 5: get to the nineteen nineties and he's in his sixties now,
Speaker 5: that he would have said, yeah, you know, you know,
Speaker 5: it was just something I did. But he was still
Speaker 5: confused by what he had photographed. So I mean that
Speaker 5: would be the exception that kind of proves the rule.
Speaker 4: Sure. I love how often you just back in the day,
Speaker 4: would just look up somebody in the phone book and
Speaker 4: it was and then you'd get them. That's pretty incredible,
Speaker 4: But you had to have the phone book to look
Speaker 4: them up.
Speaker 5: That literally hundreds of phone books. Early in the early
Speaker 5: days of computers, there were a number of CDs that
Speaker 5: you could get with the phone books from around the country,
Speaker 5: and so you could look people up. Knowing where people
Speaker 5: live was critical to finding them back in the old days,
Speaker 5: and you could call directory assistance. I called directory assistants
Speaker 5: in New Mexico and I was able to get Bill
Speaker 5: Brasel's phone number, didn't know exactly where he lived, you know,
Speaker 5: the director assistance in New Mexico. They gave me the
Speaker 5: phone number.
Speaker 4: That's a bygone era. So some of these people were
Speaker 4: lying and some of them were misidedifications. Have you ever
Speaker 4: found cases where you thought perhaps there was some intentional
Speaker 4: disinformation involved.
Speaker 5: Bob Cornette and I were doing research early on before
Speaker 5: I got involved with KUFOS and some of the other people,
Speaker 5: and we talked to a guy who claimed that he
Speaker 5: had taken a weather balloon into a city to display
Speaker 5: it to explain the UFO siding. Later on we discovered
Speaker 5: what he was talking about was Roswell. Now I know
Speaker 5: of nobody who actually did that. I don't know of
Speaker 5: anything that happened like that, but that would seem to
Speaker 5: be an instance of disinformation because he was talking about
Speaker 5: tides to the military, and the military talkdum into doing
Speaker 5: this or ordered him to do this sort of thing.
Speaker 5: That's the one case where I would really suspect disinformation.
Speaker 5: A lot of what we would think of disinformation as
Speaker 5: really misinformation, and it comes from inside the UFO community.
Speaker 5: And the best example I can think of that as
Speaker 5: MGA twelve. I think of that as being wholly created
Speaker 5: inside the UFO committey. In fact, Bill Moore had mentioned
Speaker 5: to a number of people, including Stan Friedman and Brad Sparks.
Speaker 5: I believe he was thinking of creating it Roswell type
Speaker 5: document because he'd taken the investigation as far as he
Speaker 5: could and there were people who wouldn't talk to him,
Speaker 5: and he thought if I had a document and it
Speaker 5: showed others were talking, that maybe they would be a
Speaker 5: little bit freer with the information. And so he did
Speaker 5: create the MG twelve documents. I think there's pretty clear
Speaker 5: evidence of that. In my opinion, that's what happened. But
Speaker 5: the point is people have pointed to that as possibility
Speaker 5: of disinformation. I think it's misinformation. I think it was
Speaker 5: created inside the UFO community for a specific purpose. I
Speaker 5: don't think it was disinformation created by whoever was running
Speaker 5: the investigation. That's something else. Again. I don't think that
Speaker 5: MJ twelve ever existed as such. Now we hear about
Speaker 5: I guess it's the Legacy Program or the Legacy Project,
Speaker 5: which sounds suspiciously like what we've all envisioned as the
Speaker 5: Oversight Committee controlling the UFO information or the UAP information.
Speaker 5: Now and that seems to be kind of what MG
Speaker 5: twelve was. We we'd always suspected something like that. If
Speaker 5: you if you, well, it feels like.
Speaker 4: There would be something like that. It just makes sense
Speaker 4: that there would be a group, right.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, that's what I was saying. We had always
Speaker 5: speculated that if you presented with something like the crash
Speaker 5: at Roswell, you would create some kind of organization THI tank, Yeah,
Speaker 5: the two to look at it and to see where
Speaker 5: it's going on, what it means in its entirety, and
Speaker 5: control the flow of information. And I think that you know,
Speaker 5: that makes that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 4: We're gonna have to stop right there, Kevin. When we
Speaker 4: come back, we're going to talk to Kevin Randall about Roswell,
Speaker 4: which he's done extensive work on. You're listening to Beyond
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Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact. I'm Captain Ron. We're
Speaker 4: talking to Kevin Randall. Hey, Kevin, I want to talk
Speaker 4: to you about Roswell. Now you along with Don Schmid
Speaker 4: and Tom Carey and Stanton and some others have really
Speaker 4: done some incredible work vetting these people, digging into this case.
Speaker 4: You've had the opportunity to speak directly to some of
Speaker 4: these first hand witnesses. What are some of the most
Speaker 4: compelling aspects of this case that allow you to think
Speaker 4: it might be an extraterrestrial explanation.
Speaker 5: The witnesses I talked to personally, of course, Jesse marcell
Speaker 5: A senior who I never had the opportunity to talk to,
Speaker 5: Jesse marcell junior. Of course we became friends. I talked
Speaker 5: to Edwin Easley, who was a Provost marshal and Roswell
Speaker 5: in nineteen forty seven. Provost marshal like the chief of police.
Speaker 5: He controlled the security for the base, and he controlled
Speaker 5: them pea company that patrolled the town for when the
Speaker 5: soldiers were misbehaving and that sort of thing. When I
Speaker 5: first talked to him, he said repeatedly, I can't talk
Speaker 5: about it. I was foreigned to secrecy, and we have
Speaker 5: that on tape, of course, and he'd mentioned a little
Speaker 5: bit of what was going on. I think he told
Speaker 5: me at one point that mac Brassel had been held
Speaker 5: at the guesthouse on the base, which was kind of
Speaker 5: an interesting corroboration for mac brasel's involvement, and we're talking
Speaker 5: about that, and I finally said to him, are we
Speaker 5: following the right path? And he said, what do you mean?
Speaker 5: And I said, we think it's extraterrestrial and he said, well,
Speaker 5: let me put it this way, You're not on the
Speaker 5: wrong path. Absolutely corroboration leading us to the extraterrestrial. So
Speaker 5: that's what happened. But I think his testimony was very,
Speaker 5: very interesting and very credible. Well. Water HoTT, of course,
Speaker 5: was always talking about how he had written the press release,
Speaker 5: and it turned out he wasn't sure if he'd written
Speaker 5: the press release, or Colonel Blanchard had called him on
Speaker 5: the phone and given him the information so he could
Speaker 5: produce the press release, or Blanchard called him to office
Speaker 5: and handed into the document that he was supposed to release,
Speaker 5: or however transpired. But he spent a lot of time
Speaker 5: saying that he had not seen anything. All he did
Speaker 5: was write the press release. And then she's a quarter
Speaker 5: of a century ago now, I said, around two thousand,
Speaker 5: he mentioned to a French documentary company that he had
Speaker 5: seen the craft and the bodies, and this alerted Wendy Connor,
Speaker 5: I think Dennis Baalzeizer, who interviewed him in depth and
Speaker 5: he produced a produced a video of him. And then
Speaker 5: Don Schmid, of course interviewed him and they produced a
Speaker 5: affidavit that he signed. But that always struck me as
Speaker 5: odd because here we are beyond two thousand and he's
Speaker 5: finally admitting that he saw the craft and the bodies.
Speaker 5: I talked to a guy in the mid nineteen nineties,
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety six, I think Richard Harris, who'd been a
Speaker 5: finance officer Roswell in nineteen forty seven, and he told
Speaker 5: me back then before Walter Ewart admitted to having seen anything,
Speaker 5: they were in the hangar and Walter says, beyond that
Speaker 5: door is the bodies. Did you want to see them?
Speaker 4: Said?
Speaker 5: He put his hand on the door, and then he
Speaker 5: just decided he didn't want to see the bodies. I'm
Speaker 5: thinking out of him through the door in a minute,
Speaker 5: Oh for sure.
Speaker 4: But I mean, you're.
Speaker 5: Talking about dead bodies, and you know, people get squeamish
Speaker 5: and that sort of thing. So that was his opinion,
Speaker 5: and I don't think he understood the magnitude of what
Speaker 5: he was refusing to do there. But the point simply
Speaker 5: is that here is Harris telling me that the Halt
Speaker 5: knew about the craft and the bodies, had seen the
Speaker 5: craft and the bodies prior to Walder ever admitting them,
Speaker 5: and so that was interesting to me some corroboration that
Speaker 5: Walder probably knew more than he had let on.
Speaker 4: There are a lot of these little tiny stories and
Speaker 4: little comments that to me just fall right into place.
Speaker 4: You know, just the fact that this guy says, I
Speaker 4: can't talk about that. Well, if you can't talk about it,
Speaker 4: there's something there, because.
Speaker 5: Well, well when you say you can't talk about it,
Speaker 5: you know. We were looking what possibly could have fallen
Speaker 5: at Rosweld. They would have been classified at the time,
Speaker 5: and the only thing that we really came up was
Speaker 5: is since they were the only atomic streank force in
Speaker 5: the world, that they may have been practicing with the
Speaker 5: atomic bomb. It's an actually dropped one. It would have
Speaker 5: been a practice bomb. It wouldn't have detonated, but at
Speaker 5: the time the size and the shape of the bomb
Speaker 5: was classified, and so that would have triggered the recovery operation.
Speaker 5: But we could find no evidence that that was the case.
Speaker 5: I laid it all out in a book called Rosmo
Speaker 5: the twenty first Century, in great detail. The book actually
Speaker 5: has over a thousand footnotes in it. We could talk
Speaker 5: about the you know, the Project Mogul explanation for Roswolg,
Speaker 5: which is completely bold less.
Speaker 4: If you want to do some comedy, go right ahead.
Speaker 5: Well, the point simply is we have the documentation and
Speaker 5: the culprit is flight number four mobile flight number four.
Speaker 5: But it says right in the documentation it didn't fly. Well,
Speaker 5: how does it leave debris? The other thing is it
Speaker 5: was supposedly launched on June fourth. Brazil doesn't report this
Speaker 5: until early July. It laid in the field for a month.
Speaker 5: There was so much of this debris that the sheep
Speaker 5: refused to cross, so he was interested in getting it
Speaker 5: picked up. Had it been a mongo balloon, he could
Speaker 5: have done it in twenty minutes by himself.
Speaker 4: They would have this so air tight when they released
Speaker 4: their third explanation about what happened, that they would cover everything.
Speaker 4: And yet there were all these things you uncovered that
Speaker 4: showed that it couldn't have been Mogul.
Speaker 5: I think the documentation proved the way he said, we
Speaker 5: didn't fly today that the flight was canceled. They said
Speaker 5: later in the day they flew a cluster of balloons,
Speaker 5: and people said, well, we don't know what the cluster
Speaker 5: of balloons was. Yes, we do, because the documentation is there.
Speaker 5: Sometimes when they couldn't launch the fuller rays, they would
Speaker 5: fly in microphone up with a cluster of balloons. It
Speaker 5: did not have all these things going with it. The
Speaker 5: other thing we discovered and Charles Moore, who was one
Speaker 5: of the engineers on MOGOL, told me that flight number
Speaker 5: four was configured the same as flight number five. Flight
Speaker 5: number five has no ray wind targets. They didn't use
Speaker 5: a ray win targets till later in July. So if
Speaker 5: flight number four was configured exactly as flight number five
Speaker 5: and there were no ray wind targets, what's the debris
Speaker 5: being displayed in Ramy's office. Well, here it is the
Speaker 5: weather balloon and these raywood targets. Well, clearly it was not.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's incredible that you guys dug that deep. You know.
Speaker 4: I'll tell you one time I was with Don Schmidt
Speaker 4: and he told me personally how he had talked to
Speaker 4: some of these military guys who looked him in the
Speaker 4: eye and broke down crying because they've they said that
Speaker 4: they've never talked about this in over fifty years, and
Speaker 4: Don personally found that extremely compelling. Do you have any
Speaker 4: moments like that regarding the Roswell case that you found
Speaker 4: of great interest?
Speaker 5: Like I said Edwin Easley, I mean that was to
Speaker 5: me was very important. When we were doing the investigation
Speaker 5: actively in New Mexico, we were searching for explanations and
Speaker 5: we eliminated practically everything that we could. The Air Force report,
Speaker 5: by the way, eliminated all those things as well, all
Speaker 5: they could come up with Project mogul So. I thank
Speaker 5: the Air Force for confirming what we had said and
Speaker 5: then coming up with his Coctamami Project mogul So. Lots
Speaker 5: of these things. Joe Briley talking about Colonel Blanchard going
Speaker 5: on leave and saying that was a blind because you
Speaker 5: know he left the base, and that's what Joe Briley
Speaker 5: told me. Robert Smith talking about handling some of the
Speaker 5: debris and the cleanup operation and how they were creating
Speaker 5: these big crates to put the debris in and the
Speaker 5: debris had virtually no weight to it. Frankie Rowe, who
Speaker 5: was the daughter of the firefighter who handled a piece
Speaker 5: of the debris at the Roswell Fire Department and he
Speaker 5: told the family how he'd gone out and seen the
Speaker 5: craft and the bodies. I asked the firefighter, what did
Speaker 5: you know, Dan Dwyer, and he said immediately to me, oh, yeah,
Speaker 5: he went out. He went on his private car. It
Speaker 5: wasn't an official fire run. He went out and saw it.
Speaker 5: I think the testimony of the family of Sheriff Wilcox
Speaker 5: was important and dynamic about what they were told in
Speaker 5: that sort of thing, and looking at the people who
Speaker 5: were threatened in some fashion. I know Frankie Rowe, we
Speaker 5: were in Roswell. Frankie Rowe was there. We were in
Speaker 5: a walver Hotts house and we were doing a radio
Speaker 5: interview and the host of the radio show had a
Speaker 5: New England accent and that just scared the hell out
Speaker 5: of Frankie Rowe because she remembered this officer coming out
Speaker 5: to the house, to their house and talking to her
Speaker 5: about what she'd seen and talking about if you talk
Speaker 5: about this, your parents will end up at Orchard Park,
Speaker 5: which had been a prisoner war camp during the Second
Speaker 5: World War. You know that sort of thing. But her
Speaker 5: reaction just to hearing that New England accent was very
Speaker 5: very persuasive.
Speaker 4: Those things are all compelling to me. What about these
Speaker 4: Weren't there some deathbed confessions from a couple of these guys?
Speaker 5: Technically no, because if you look at the legal definition
Speaker 5: of deathbed, it has to be confessing to some kind
Speaker 5: of illegal activity. That being said of, there were a
Speaker 5: number of people who knew time was short and told
Speaker 5: friends and family about what they'd had. You could suggest
Speaker 5: that with Edwin Easley, for example, as he was in
Speaker 5: the hospital he had terminal cancer. I think it was
Speaker 5: a granddaughter had bought a cop of Gods in my
Speaker 5: book and showed it to him, and he said, oh,
Speaker 5: the creatures right right.
Speaker 4: And also, wasn't there another guy who left something to
Speaker 4: be opened upon his death for his granddaughter? I thought
Speaker 4: that he didn't.
Speaker 5: Well, Walter Hot's at the David was left to.
Speaker 4: Be That's what it was after he died because he
Speaker 4: didn't want any of the thing happened while he was alive.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would have been unimpressed with that given the circumstances.
Speaker 5: Had I talked to Richard Harris about what he'd seen
Speaker 5: and he was telling you Walter HoTT knew prior to
Speaker 5: Walter HoTT ever mentioning this to any of the rest
Speaker 5: of us. I mean, I talked to Walder Hot dozens
Speaker 5: of times. I was at his house, We went to dinner,
Speaker 5: we did all this sort of thing, and we would
Speaker 5: talk about this and he would he would make it clear.
Speaker 5: The only thing I did was I wrote the prespidence.
Speaker 5: I took the press release to the media. That's all
Speaker 5: I did. Later on it came out that with the
Speaker 5: out the Davit, it came out that he'd seen and
Speaker 5: done a lot more.
Speaker 4: Okay, when we come back, we're going to talk to
Speaker 4: Kevin Moore about some of the strongest cases that he
Speaker 4: knows about in the UFO community. You're listening to be
Speaker 4: on contact right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to
Speaker 4: Coast AM Paranormal podcast network.
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Speaker 4: We are back on beyond contact. Kevin. I know that
Speaker 4: you've been able to discredit or at least diminish a
Speaker 4: lot of the credibility of some of these UFO cases.
Speaker 4: But after looking at this for Jesus over fifty years now,
Speaker 4: what do you feel are some of the strongest cases,
Speaker 4: the ones that have evidence that may actually have an
Speaker 4: et explanation.
Speaker 5: I owe a default to level Land. I did a
Speaker 5: book called clearly called level Land about that. It was
Speaker 5: a series of sightings in November nineteen fifty seven, Texas,
Speaker 5: which is I was going to say just outside of Lubbock.
Speaker 5: I think it's like fifteen twenty miles away from Lobbock.
Speaker 5: Dozens of people the sheriff of Hockley County actually said
Speaker 5: hundreds of people called him on the night of November
Speaker 5: two into the morning of November third, talking about this
Speaker 5: thing flying around the area stalling cars. A number of
Speaker 5: people reported as it approached their carge installed there are
Speaker 5: headlights went out. The radios were filled with static number
Speaker 5: of people reporting that.
Speaker 4: And you know, that's a big thing in today's in
Speaker 4: the folklore of this is the car dying. We see
Speaker 4: it in movies now, But in nineteen fifty seven, that
Speaker 4: wasn't known at all, And I think there was more
Speaker 4: than just a few people that had that happen, right kevivin.
Speaker 5: Oh There were literally dozens of people. But what was
Speaker 5: important what I discovered my investigation of the level land case.
Speaker 5: The sheriff eventually thought that he should go out and
Speaker 5: look for the craft himself, and he is in a
Speaker 5: car with a deputy behind him. Is a car with
Speaker 5: the Texas Department of Public Safety, which is the state
Speaker 5: police following him behind him is a car. We're therefore
Speaker 5: officers in it. Originally, the sheriff said that he had
Speaker 5: seen football shaped or oval shaped, bright glowing red object.
Speaker 5: The Air Force came and interviewed him, and then it
Speaker 5: was just just a streak of red in the distance
Speaker 5: nine hundred yards away or something like that. Later on,
Speaker 5: Don Berliner interviewed him in nineteen seventy five, I think
Speaker 5: it is, and the sheriff said, well, I saw this huge,
Speaker 5: blowing football shaped object. Now what Don Berlinson found. And
Speaker 5: there's an awful lot of dons in this conversation, but
Speaker 5: I noticed that Don Berlinson found he was Liz and Rossell.
Speaker 5: He went over to Level lad to investigate. Talk to
Speaker 5: the sheriff's wife also talked to the police mechanic in
Speaker 5: nineteen fifty seven. The mechanics said, well, the day after
Speaker 5: the sheriff had gone out, he came in and wanted
Speaker 5: his car looked at, see if there was any mechanical problems.
Speaker 5: I'm thinking the only reason he would have done it
Speaker 5: is he got close enough to this object that his
Speaker 5: car stalled, and if his car stalled, the car behind
Speaker 5: him stalled, and the car behind that with the Air
Speaker 5: Force Office installed. Don keyho another Dawn for you, of
Speaker 5: the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, was arguing the
Speaker 5: Air Force and said, well, he'd talked to nine witnesses
Speaker 5: who'd seen the object. You go to the Air Force file,
Speaker 5: you can find I think thirteen names. You look at
Speaker 5: newspapers and you find a whole bunch of other people
Speaker 5: who are involved in this, and then the final piece
Speaker 5: of the puzzle is the next day or a day
Speaker 5: or two later, he was visiting with a friend who
Speaker 5: owned a ranch in the level Land area and they
Speaker 5: found a big, long, circular bird area on the ranch
Speaker 5: that hadn't been there, which means the thing touched down.
Speaker 5: So we have a landing trace, we have the interaction
Speaker 5: with the environment. We have dozens of witnesses, including a
Speaker 5: law enforcement military people from the other end of the spectrum.
Speaker 5: I mean, a whole range of witnesses who talked about this.
Speaker 5: So I think the level Land case is very important
Speaker 5: because there's nothing in our inventory that would cause cars
Speaker 5: to stall that way. The Condon Committee, the alleged Scientific
Speaker 5: Investigation Unidentified Flying Objects. If you look at their final report,
Speaker 5: they mentioned level Land twice, once saying that they didn't
Speaker 5: bother to investigate because they would have had to look
Speaker 5: for the cars, and it was too long ago and
Speaker 5: they just couldn't do it, although they looked at other
Speaker 5: cases that were as old as that, and then they
Speaker 5: said they could think of no mechanism in which you
Speaker 5: would introduce an electromagnetic field that would still a car
Speaker 5: engine and when you remove that field, the engine would
Speaker 5: start spontaneously. And I got to looking at that. So
Speaker 5: I'm looking at all these reports. Mark Rodicker did a
Speaker 5: monograph on thank four hundred and fifty eight engine stallings
Speaker 5: from the nineteen oh nine was the first one and
Speaker 5: it went up to nineteen eighty five. So I think
Speaker 5: that's a very important case.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think it gets in a notoriety that
Speaker 4: it deserves. What about shag Harber.
Speaker 5: Which took place in nineteen sixty eight while the Condon
Speaker 5: Committee was working. They may have been limited by what
Speaker 5: they could do based on the contract they signed shag
Speaker 5: Harber being in Canada as opposed to the United States,
Speaker 5: so it may be outside there the limits of their
Speaker 5: contract to do that. But I'm thinking, I'm a scientists
Speaker 5: and suddenly I've got this case where the thing plunged
Speaker 5: into the lake. There's a photograph of the thing in
Speaker 5: the air. People who saw after plunging the lake their
Speaker 5: fishing boats got out there and they saw the yellowish
Speaker 5: subjects on the surface of the water. The thing was
Speaker 5: detected on the bottom of Shape Harbor eventually disappeared, carloads
Speaker 5: of document. Chris Styles and Don Ledger another DoD for
Speaker 5: crying in a bucket. Don Ledger investigated in depth beyond
Speaker 5: Ledger wrote a book called Dark Object. I think it was.
Speaker 5: It's about sharing Harvard case. It's very important case because
Speaker 5: here is something again where there were multiple witnesses, there
Speaker 5: were other chains of evidence, there was large law enforcement involved,
Speaker 5: there was military involved, all that sort of thing going on.
Speaker 5: So it's a very important case.
Speaker 4: Do you have another case that you maybe think is credible,
Speaker 4: that maybe we haven't heard of the.
Speaker 5: Lou Alessandro mentioned in his book about some kind of
Speaker 5: event in Sioux City, Iowa. They saw an object basically fall.
Speaker 5: They went to the state park and found a puddle
Speaker 5: of blowing molten metal. In his book, he doesn't really
Speaker 5: tell us much about it other than mention the case.
Speaker 5: So I did some in depth research to see where
Speaker 5: it went. There's a scientific paper that I found. The
Speaker 5: metal is basically an alloy that could have been produced
Speaker 5: in the Sioux City area by a couple of foundries there.
Speaker 5: It wasn't detailed enough or it wasn't strange enough to
Speaker 5: suggest an extraterrestrial component, but it also doesn't eliminate that.
Speaker 5: My biggest fear has always been something like this happening
Speaker 5: where we have an actual, legitimate piece of a flying saucer.
Speaker 5: I mean, we've got something real, it's extra crestrial origin.
Speaker 5: We take it in the laboratory to have an anime sis. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's aluminum. You know, what do you do? Then it's
Speaker 5: there's nothing that distinguishes it from some.
Speaker 4: Point with aluminum by them, right.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, the other thing is those pieces tend to go missing.
Speaker 4: That's the other frustrating thing that I deal with all
Speaker 4: the time. When you hear that, well, I.
Speaker 5: Think part of that. In the Arismal case, of course,
Speaker 5: there was an effort by the miller to collect all
Speaker 5: that material, and so you have that sort of thing
Speaker 5: going on. Well, the book Level Land has some of
Speaker 5: those smaller cases in it. My focus was on level
Speaker 5: Land sightings, but there was a sighting at White Sands
Speaker 5: as a matter of fact, later that night by two
Speaker 5: MPs that the Air Force rode off as I think
Speaker 5: the moon. But I talked to one of the MPs
Speaker 5: and he was telling me how the thing had come
Speaker 5: down and it was below the horizon and there were
Speaker 5: mountains in the background, and the thing was it was
Speaker 5: one hundred yards away and it was below the horizon,
Speaker 5: but clearly it wasn't the moon. November third, the next night,
Speaker 5: two more MPs saw something in the same area and
Speaker 5: the Air Force rote it off as venus or vice versa,
Speaker 5: one the way or the other. When the Air Force
Speaker 5: declassified the Project Blue Book files or the parts that
Speaker 5: were classified before they released him into the public arena,
Speaker 5: they redacted all the names from the master index. There's
Speaker 5: twelve thousand cases and there's problem twenty thousand names, and
Speaker 5: they redacted all the names from that. But they didn't
Speaker 5: know a very good job at that. Bob Cornette and
Speaker 5: I went to the Nactual Air Force base prior to
Speaker 5: the Air Force releasing him to the National Archives. So
Speaker 5: we saw the index with the names in it, and
Speaker 5: the first thing we did was go through it and
Speaker 5: we wrote down the names of everybody involved in an
Speaker 5: identified case or a photographic case or a physical evidence case.
Speaker 5: So we had those names. I think Don Berleinard had
Speaker 5: something similar when he had an opportunity the case, but
Speaker 5: when they were released to the National Archives, they redacted
Speaker 5: all the names. A guy in Ohio doing a bizarre thing.
Speaker 5: He would go to Craigslist and look for anything UFO oriented.
Speaker 5: There was somebody would put up a box of material
Speaker 5: about UFO. So he spent one hundred dollars about the box.
Speaker 5: In it he found an unreacted version of the index.
Speaker 5: So now we have all the names again. The other
Speaker 5: thing I wanted to say is if you go through
Speaker 5: the case found normally you could find the names of
Speaker 5: the people. And I just thought of the case. There
Speaker 5: was a case from April of nineteen fifty two and
Speaker 5: the Air Force wrote it off as single witness and
Speaker 5: a hoax, and you go to the Project Blue Book
Speaker 5: files and they've got the date wrong. Barry Greenwood sent
Speaker 5: me copies of newspaper articles from that time. The actual
Speaker 5: sighting was on April fifteenth, I think it was. And
Speaker 5: then there's names of four witnesses unrelated to one another,
Speaker 5: who saw the same thing. So here's this wonderful case
Speaker 5: from Maryland with elecromagnetic effects and this thing going on,
Speaker 5: and the Air Force boughts the investigation. I put something
Speaker 5: up on my blog about that, so you can take
Speaker 5: a look at it. A lot of other stuff.
Speaker 4: Cars, there's a lot of stuff there. Listen. When we
Speaker 4: come back, we're going to talk to Kevin and get
Speaker 4: his thoughts about Arrow and some of these government reports.
Speaker 4: He's been talking about blue Book. We're going to ask
Speaker 4: him what he thinks of those. You're listening to Beyond
Speaker 4: Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am Paranormal
Speaker 4: podcast Network.
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Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact and we're talking with
Speaker 4: Kevin Randall. Kevin, what are your thoughts on this Aerrow report?
Speaker 5: There was a report you classified as a report.
Speaker 4: Well, they did mean this. I classified it as comedy.
Speaker 4: But you tell me what you think of it.
Speaker 5: Well, the first report that came out a number of
Speaker 5: years ago, I would have said it was like a
Speaker 5: C minus high school report. It was so badly done.
Speaker 5: It was like eleven pages and it just didn't really
Speaker 5: tell us anything. The sixty four page report, we've all
Speaker 5: gone through it. I mean we in the UFO community
Speaker 5: had gone through it, and we found loads of the stakes.
Speaker 5: The history is wrong. I guess you could call it
Speaker 5: Condon two point zero, designed to dissuade people from looking
Speaker 5: into the UFO fighting. So we've looked at all these
Speaker 5: cases and we found explanations for all of them. But
Speaker 5: want or something like that, it's just just absolutely ludicrous.
Speaker 4: It's just kind of followed up with sign Grunge blue Book.
Speaker 4: All of them. Don't you think that they're all absolutely?
Speaker 5: Absolutely? And that was my point. I said, Condon two
Speaker 5: point zero because here's a scientific report outside the Air
Speaker 5: Force chain of command. You know when you talk about
Speaker 5: Sign and Grudge and Blue Book and then Moondust and
Speaker 5: some of the other projects, those are all military arnt it.
Speaker 5: The Condon Committee was a civilian job put up by
Speaker 5: the Air Force. They paid I think we ended up
Speaker 5: at five hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the report.
Speaker 5: The embessing with the Condon Report, I have to get
Speaker 5: this in prior to them beginning the investigation. It was
Speaker 5: a letter from Lieutenant Colonel Robert Hipler to doctor Robert
Speaker 5: Lowe of the Condobumitty, and Hipper says, here with what
Speaker 5: we'd like you to find when you do your investigation.
Speaker 5: Air Force did a good job of investigating. There's no
Speaker 5: national security interest in these things. Further scientific study is
Speaker 5: not going to provide anything. So he might as well
Speaker 5: close Blue Book and low and behold when they finish it,
Speaker 5: that's exactly what they found.
Speaker 4: Wow, what a surprise. Ending to their scientific investigation.
Speaker 5: Condon was in according to New York talking to a
Speaker 5: group of engineers and he tells them, yeah, I don't
Speaker 5: think there's anything to this, but I'm not supposed to
Speaker 5: come to this conclusion for another eighteen months. I mean,
Speaker 5: when you look at the history of the investigations, official investigations,
Speaker 5: it's all basically the same. You know, there's nothing to it.
Speaker 5: We should do anything.
Speaker 4: I was just going to say, what are your thoughts
Speaker 4: on louil Is Isando? You mentioned him earlier.
Speaker 5: I read his book. I was disappointed because he really
Speaker 5: tells us nothing about the UFO investigation, our UAP investigation
Speaker 5: that we didn't already know. The one thing he did
Speaker 5: do that I found interesting in his book was he
Speaker 5: laid out in a after the whole Nimtz sightings events
Speaker 5: in a chronological order, and I hadn't seen anything as
Speaker 5: detailed as that elsewhere. An awful lot of his book
Speaker 5: is about his experiences with the military, the infighting and
Speaker 5: political nature of duty in the Pentagon.
Speaker 4: Hey, let me ask you this, what are your thoughts
Speaker 4: on David Grosh.
Speaker 5: I'm as close to this stuff as he is. He
Speaker 5: doesn't know anything that I don't know. I was upset, worried,
Speaker 5: concerned when he mentioned the Italian crash from nineteen thirty three,
Speaker 5: which colleagues in Italy who had investigated in the nineteen
Speaker 5: ninety says it's a hoax, which makes me wonder about
Speaker 5: the credibility of his sources. He does mention Roswell. I
Speaker 5: also did a thing on my blog where I speculated
Speaker 5: what the ten other crashes that he didn't talk about.
Speaker 5: Some of this has come up in other discussions that
Speaker 5: suggest I'm on the right track, and I've been able
Speaker 5: to connect Grush with Lou Alizondo. In his own book,
Speaker 5: he talks about David Grush, and I think he puts
Speaker 5: him in the room with Christopher Mellon, and we know
Speaker 5: what mellen has talked about in the way of crashes,
Speaker 5: so we can kind of put this information together. So
Speaker 5: I think he is reporting accurately what he has heard
Speaker 5: from people he respected, who had high level jobs in
Speaker 5: the government at some point or may have been observers
Speaker 5: of these craft. But he doesn't He didn't see anything himself,
Speaker 5: He didn't handle any of the debris, He wasn't involved
Speaker 5: in any of the ellected retrievals. And I, you know,
Speaker 5: Don Schmid, Tom Carrey and I can say the same thing.
Speaker 5: So when I say that we've talked to people who
Speaker 5: saw the bodies, we talked to people who were involved
Speaker 5: with the retrieval operation. We talked to people who were
Speaker 5: threatened by the military, so we're as close to this
Speaker 5: as brush is. He just didn't tell me anything that
Speaker 5: I didn't already know. The same thing with lou Alessandro's book,
Speaker 5: when you get away from the politics in the Pentagon,
Speaker 5: which I wasn't familiar with, having never served in the Pentagon,
Speaker 5: but understanding the security procedure, But when you get away
Speaker 5: from that, you get into the UFO aspect of it
Speaker 5: or the UAP aspect of it. He didn't really provide
Speaker 5: any information we didn't know. He mentioned he mentioned Kexsburg,
Speaker 5: the UFO craft, the Kexsburg in his book, but it's
Speaker 5: in relation to Leslie King's investigation into that. But that's it.
Speaker 5: He's just you know, Leslie Kane was involved with NASA
Speaker 5: the or sued NASA about the Kexburg crash. No idea
Speaker 5: what that means if you're outside the field and you're
Speaker 5: not well versed in it. December ninth, nineteen sixty five
Speaker 5: event where Stan Gordon says there was an object that
Speaker 5: crashed near Kexsburgh in the military retrieved him, but he
Speaker 5: doesn't go into that. So with his book, there was
Speaker 5: really nothing in there that was an interest to me
Speaker 5: as an investigator view I follows, But I just found
Speaker 5: nothing in David Rush's testimony that I found particularly persuasive
Speaker 5: that I didn't already know. And I could say the
Speaker 5: thing about lua Arozandro's book, right right.
Speaker 4: So, Kevin, what kind of pace are you on? Is it?
Speaker 4: Is it two books a day that you write? Is
Speaker 4: that about the pace you're doing these books?
Speaker 5: Ashley, I'm only writing one at the current time because
Speaker 5: it's very confusing. It's going to take a major rewrite.
Speaker 5: I have a series of action venture novels and four
Speaker 5: of them are done, and I've been struggling with the
Speaker 5: fifth one.
Speaker 4: But it's how much you've written. Do you have a
Speaker 4: favorite book of all your books, or one you're most
Speaker 4: proud of? Perhaps?
Speaker 5: Well, I always point to the Leveland book because it's
Speaker 5: kind of outside the mainstream of upology, but it's an
Speaker 5: in depth look at that case, and I think that's
Speaker 5: an important boot And I think Roswold in the twenty
Speaker 5: first century is fun because people have told me that
Speaker 5: the footnotes are more fun than the text because there's
Speaker 5: all this ansellor reinformation stuck in there.
Speaker 4: It's a lot of work, but it's important work.
Speaker 5: Yeah. But I've done a lot of books in a
Speaker 5: Vietnam Brown Zero series that you go on Amazon. Look
Speaker 5: by Eric Kell by the way for those Eric Helm.
Speaker 4: Yeah your surname there, you have another surname. Don't you
Speaker 4: have another name? Remember?
Speaker 5: And I was Cat Brandigan, I was Steve McKinsey, it
Speaker 5: was James Butler Bonham. Most of all of that stuff
Speaker 5: is now being published under the pseudonym of Eric Helm.
Speaker 5: I did a science fiction novel called The Interplanetary Defense
Speaker 5: for IDF, not realizing that I was stabling the name
Speaker 5: from the Israelis. This is not a bad thing, you know,
Speaker 5: but it's slightly different, and that just came out to
Speaker 5: science fiction novel I think is kind of fun. And
Speaker 5: I did a book called On the Second Tuesday of
Speaker 5: Next Week is a time travel novel. Oh and remember
Speaker 5: the Alamo, where a group of mercenaries are sent back
Speaker 5: to Texas to win the Battle of the Animal. So
Speaker 5: you got thirty guys, actually men and women go back
Speaker 5: to modern weapons and they managed to break up the
Speaker 5: Mexican funnel attack on the Alamo and a matter of
Speaker 5: minutes at one point one of the mercenaries is trying
Speaker 5: to pick off the Mexican officers at a at a
Speaker 5: thousand yards, and Travis says to him, you know that
Speaker 5: way outside your ranges. Don't worry about it. We can
Speaker 5: do that. It's a lot of fun stuff in that
Speaker 5: book too, So there's a lot of books.
Speaker 4: I can't believe how much you write. That's fantastic. I really,
Speaker 4: we all really appreciate all the work you've done.
Speaker 5: I stopped counting at one hundred and fifty books.
Speaker 4: Jesus. Not only does he write a book a day,
Speaker 4: he also has his blog, which is Kevin Randall dot
Speaker 4: blogspot dot com. You can hear him every week on
Speaker 4: Thursday or Friday night on Coast to Coast AM. Kevin,
Speaker 4: thanks a lot for coming on.
Speaker 5: Its three to five minutes on Coast to Coast AM
Speaker 5: doing an update of what's going on, talking about like
Speaker 5: what's going on in the UFO field, and always some
Speaker 5: kind of an interesting siding as well.
Speaker 4: It's great, it's great. Please check out the website of
Speaker 4: the ANHHANS organization, the New Paradigm Institute dot org, as
Speaker 4: they're doing incredible work moving our knowledge on this topic
Speaker 4: forward as well. We'll be back next week with an
Speaker 4: all new episode. You can follow me Captain Ron on
Speaker 4: Twitter and Instagram at CITD Underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected
Speaker 4: by checking out Contact in the Desert dot com. Stay
Speaker 4: open minded and rational as we explore the unknown right
Speaker 4: here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal
Speaker 4: Podcast Networks.
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