Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 1: and speaker.
Speaker 2: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
Speaker 2: and course creator. We are two working parents who love
Speaker 2: our careers and our families.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 1: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
Speaker 1: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Speaker 3: Term career goals.
Speaker 1: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 3: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 1: This episode is airing in early December of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: Sarah is going to be interviewing Shira Gill, who is
Speaker 1: the author of the new book Lifestyled. People may know
Speaker 1: her from various minimalist writings over the years. They will
Speaker 1: talk about all things organizing and style, et cetera. Sarah,
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on organizing currently?
Speaker 2: I love talking about organizing. I love reading things about organizing.
Speaker 2: I love thinking about what my house would be like
Speaker 2: if it was organized. I do not actually like organizing.
Speaker 2: And that was preps.
Speaker 1: I mean, we said we were going to talk too
Speaker 1: much in any of our episodes about our goals for
Speaker 1: the past year or the upcoming year, because we have
Speaker 1: episodes devoted to those things. But I seem to recall
Speaker 1: that organizing the house may have been a goal for
Speaker 1: you this year.
Speaker 3: Did that happen?
Speaker 2: It's been a goal for many years, and you know
Speaker 2: this was a year I did a lot of things
Speaker 2: that were goals for many years, like a lot of
Speaker 2: things that have been lingering one hundred dreams lists and have.
Speaker 3: Happened, but not that, not that one.
Speaker 1: So I know, sorry, you maybe trying to reframe your
Speaker 1: thinking about this topic.
Speaker 2: I just might be getting closer to outsourcing some of it.
Speaker 2: I do actually still want to have a home that
Speaker 2: has less clutter in it and more the things that
Speaker 2: we actually use and reclaim some of our space that
Speaker 2: is taken up by piles of who knows what. And
Speaker 2: I don't currently have space in my life to like
Speaker 2: make this happen on a regular basis. So I am
Speaker 2: at least becoming more realistic about it. But I still
Speaker 2: love interviews like Shira because she makes me maybe realize
Speaker 2: how like maybe I don't have to think of it
Speaker 2: as so big, Like maybe there are some things I
Speaker 2: could do that would get me eighty percent of the
Speaker 2: way there. That would be almost like eighty twenty twenty
Speaker 2: percent of the work, eighty percent of the bet of it.
Speaker 1: And Annabel does some of this right, like justin she
Speaker 1: liked doing some organizing things. Maybe she could be your
Speaker 1: little helper on this.
Speaker 2: I mean, I actually think there could be a role
Speaker 2: for her, like formally taking some of this on as
Speaker 2: like you know, like I'm not employing my child, but
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like rewarding her for some
Speaker 2: of her efforts. And I think she would enjoy it
Speaker 2: and it would be like a valuable skill set and
Speaker 2: maybe even would be fun for her to like read
Speaker 2: one of these books or take a video course on
Speaker 2: organizing or something like that and get her really in it.
Speaker 2: By the way, this is not like gender specific, but
Speaker 2: there's like zero chance that either of my other two
Speaker 2: children are going to have this proclivity. So it just
Speaker 2: happens to be her. But yeah, I mean, maybe that
Speaker 2: will be part of the answer. She's busy too, Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: I mean that was certainly for us.
Speaker 3: I mean, we had boxes in the.
Speaker 1: Hallway for a long time and then we hired somebody
Speaker 1: to get rid of them, and now we don't have
Speaker 1: any boxes. And it's good because once a lot of
Speaker 1: the initial stuff was done, like nobody's going to leave
Speaker 1: something on the floor and the upstairs hallway at this
Speaker 1: point because it's clean, like there's nothing on the floor.
Speaker 1: Like when there were boxes, stuff was getting left there
Speaker 1: left and right, because it's like once there's boxes, it's
Speaker 1: a free for all, right, like it's you know, piles
Speaker 1: of stuff attract more stuff. But now that space has
Speaker 1: been clear for a year plus and it's really lovely.
Speaker 1: I like to have that be the case. You know,
Speaker 1: my kids' rooms, so it's constant work in progress because
Speaker 1: they outgrow stuff, they get new stuff, so it's not
Speaker 1: like you can just do it and forget it forever.
Speaker 1: And so I think that's one issue people run into
Speaker 1: with this. It's like it's going to be more ongoing
Speaker 1: than I think some people are entirely prepared for. But
Speaker 1: so it goes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an organizing cycle, not an organizing project.
Speaker 3: Yes, a cycle. I think that's good to say.
Speaker 1: But we'll hear what Shira has to say about organizing
Speaker 1: our homes, our lives, everything else.
Speaker 3: So here we go.
Speaker 2: Well, I am so excited to welcome Shira Gil to
Speaker 2: the show. She is an organizing expert and author. She's
Speaker 2: about to have her third book out in the world,
Speaker 2: but her first two were Minimalista and Organized Living, and
Speaker 2: we're going to talk all things organizing, home stuff, maybe
Speaker 2: simplicity beyond that. Welcome to the show, Shira.
Speaker 4: Thank you. I'm so excited to have this conversation.
Speaker 2: Me too. I love the concept of minimalism. I aspire
Speaker 2: to it, and I'm absolutely not there. I'm like going
Speaker 2: to be taking notes.
Speaker 4: Right, Okay, let's go.
Speaker 2: So I guess start with that. How did you get
Speaker 2: interested in the concept of minimalism and how do you
Speaker 2: even jibe that with like the typical modern American experience
Speaker 2: of a lot that many of us have kind of naturally,
Speaker 2: especially if we have jobs and kids and all of
Speaker 2: the things.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, the pressure to consume is truly everywhere.
Speaker 5: I think it's in social media, it's and movies and TV.
Speaker 5: It's the advertisements were fed, It's the whole culture that
Speaker 5: we live in our Western world is like buy more
Speaker 5: and you'll be happier. So I was raised by hippies,
Speaker 5: New York hippies, so a different breed of hippie I'm
Speaker 5: in California now, but my parents both were kind of
Speaker 5: intellectuals who had a real I wouldn't say a minimalist philosophy,
Speaker 5: but they were anti consumerism, and so when they raised me,
Speaker 5: I also think it was a different time. I was
Speaker 5: born in the seventies and there wasn't this like you
Speaker 5: have to get the best nicest stroller and the five
Speaker 5: baby swings. It was.
Speaker 4: It was a simpler time from what I hear from them.
Speaker 4: So I did grow up with that foundation, but I
Speaker 4: was a little different because I always loved pretty things.
Speaker 4: I loved clothes.
Speaker 5: I was really interested in design and interiors and styling.
Speaker 5: So there was sort of a push pull, you know,
Speaker 5: from the time I was little where it was like
Speaker 5: my parents were teaching me experiences over things things don't matter,
Speaker 5: and I felt deeply that I agreed, But I also
Speaker 5: liked pretty things, and so I think I kind of
Speaker 5: unknowingly created my own minimalist philosophy, which was rooted in
Speaker 5: defining just the right amount of stuff for me, So
Speaker 5: kind of defining like what is the intentional right amount
Speaker 5: of stuff for me and my lifestyle and personality and values,
Speaker 5: but without any of the clutter any of the excess,
Speaker 5: and so I just that was some I just sort
Speaker 5: of I didn't even realize it was a practice or
Speaker 5: a philosophy. I just knew that clutter bothered me, and
Speaker 5: I liked my room to feel a certain way. And
Speaker 5: my parents divorced when I was very young, so I
Speaker 5: went back and forth every other day from house to house.
Speaker 5: I had to drag stuff with me back and forth,
Speaker 5: and so I think because of my upbringing, stuff became
Speaker 5: sort of this oppressive thing, and I just felt like
Speaker 5: I always wanted less stuff to manage, less stuff to
Speaker 5: drag around, and that less, to me equal freedom. So
Speaker 5: very different from the messages that I think were constantly fed,
Speaker 5: which is like more is better, More is going to
Speaker 5: make you feel pretty and successful and like you can
Speaker 5: keep up with everybody.
Speaker 4: I was always having this.
Speaker 5: Pull in the opposite direction towards less means more travel,
Speaker 5: more fun, more freedom, more ease. And that's something I
Speaker 5: really had my big light buel moment when I had
Speaker 5: my daughters.
Speaker 4: And so I'm now the mother of two teen girls,
Speaker 4: but when they were born is really when.
Speaker 5: I started my business, because I made a decision I
Speaker 5: want to be a minimalist mom, and I didn't see
Speaker 5: many examples of that in real life, and so I
Speaker 5: kind of made it my own personal challenge to resist
Speaker 5: the noise and resist the pressure and resist all the
Speaker 5: people telling me that I needed the latest this and
Speaker 5: that and this gadget and that gadget. And I really
Speaker 5: focused on experiences over things with how I raised my kids,
Speaker 5: and my business kind of took off from there.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I have so many questions. But the
Speaker 2: first thing I'm super curious about, and I know our
Speaker 2: listeners are too, is what does a minimalist mom look like.
Speaker 2: I'm interested in the various stages like coller mom versus
Speaker 2: teen mom, Like how yeah, Like, give me some examples.
Speaker 4: Well, it's a challenge.
Speaker 5: First of all, I'll admit that I think my philosophy
Speaker 5: started when I was registering for my baby shower and
Speaker 5: I went to the store it's I think it's out
Speaker 5: of business now, but it was called Giggle, and it
Speaker 5: was like all the beautiful baby things, and they presented
Speaker 5: me with like a twenty five page list of everything
Speaker 5: that I needed to be a mom. And at the time,
Speaker 5: I didn't have any close girlfriends. I don't have a
Speaker 5: sister who had kids, so I had no frame of reference,
Speaker 5: and my mom, I remember, just kind of got very
Speaker 5: snarky with the saleswoman and was like, you know, all
Speaker 5: a baby needs to be happy is food and something
Speaker 5: to sleep in. And I was like, okay, there's got
Speaker 5: to be something in between. So I think for me,
Speaker 5: you know, the way that I defined it for myself
Speaker 5: was I want just enough without the excess. And that
Speaker 5: volume is different for every person. You know, having now
Speaker 5: coached hundreds and thousands of people virtually around the world,
Speaker 5: it varies so greatly by who you are, what your
Speaker 5: care is, what your climate is, what your job is.
Speaker 5: For me, I live in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Speaker 5: Our weather is always lovely. We don't have real seasons,
Speaker 5: and so I kind of just thought, like, Okay, if
Speaker 5: I do laundry once a week, how many outfits do
Speaker 5: I need for this baby? How many socks and how
Speaker 5: many blankets do I really need? And I just kind
Speaker 5: of guesstimated on like what would be enough to be
Speaker 5: a mom and do all the practical things like feed
Speaker 5: my baby and have my baby be safe and warm
Speaker 5: without a million trinkets. And I had also been a
Speaker 5: preschool teacher, in a former life, and so I had
Speaker 5: seen the kids you know that I worked with were three,
Speaker 5: four and five, like they would just play for hours
Speaker 5: with a cardboard box and like invent a whole society
Speaker 5: and like community, and so I really realized kids don't
Speaker 5: need much, and in fact, they thrive and they're more
Speaker 5: creative when they have less stuff.
Speaker 4: So I really limited like the toys and the gizmos.
Speaker 5: And the gadgets, and instead I just hit the streets
Speaker 5: and I was out every day taking walks with my
Speaker 5: kids and taking them to museums and ice cream and
Speaker 5: I really my model in my head was like I
Speaker 5: want our house to be a place that is filled
Speaker 5: with like ease and calm and facilitates rest, and then
Speaker 5: all the fun stuff is kind of out of the
Speaker 5: house in the city, like that's our playground and that's
Speaker 5: our playroom. And we didn't have a big house, so
Speaker 5: we didn't even have a playroom, and our kids for
Speaker 5: many years shared.
Speaker 4: A small room. So I was like, I want to
Speaker 4: give them the most fun childhood.
Speaker 5: But in my mind that just didn't have any real
Speaker 5: connection to stuff.
Speaker 2: So so interesting, we're going to take a quick break
Speaker 2: and then maybe we'll talk a little bit about kind
Speaker 2: of how that looks in a little bit older kids.
Speaker 2: So yeah, sup, were interesting? Great, all right, we are back.
Speaker 2: So I'm picturing only like a few toys, if any,
Speaker 2: which actually does lower the burdens significantly on cleaning up
Speaker 2: those toys. So I kind of get where this is going.
Speaker 2: And that makes a lot of sense to me. What
Speaker 2: would a more minimalist lifestyle or space look like for
Speaker 2: like a school aged family.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I will say, I mean my kids had
Speaker 5: toys that they were not living like an austere lifestyle
Speaker 5: full of deprivation. It was just limited, right, Like we
Speaker 5: would have like three big baskets in our living room
Speaker 5: and it was like those baskets were the capacity of
Speaker 5: the toys that we had. And so I'm big into
Speaker 5: limits and boundaries as a professional organizer. I think that's
Speaker 5: the key to the universe. So as I mean, I
Speaker 5: will say, like when my kids were two and four,
Speaker 5: that was peak stuff and there was no way around it,
Speaker 5: Like there were things that we needed. We needed this
Speaker 5: stroller and the baby carrier and the multiple car seats.
Speaker 5: Like I hated it, but it was just the reality.
Speaker 5: As they got older, my kids were both prolific artists,
Speaker 5: and the art volume was insane, and so we actually
Speaker 5: put up a magnet wall in our kitchen so that
Speaker 5: they had kind of a gallery to display their favorite art.
Speaker 5: And so I would say, like, do as much art
Speaker 5: as you want, but then you have to kind of
Speaker 5: pick and curate like what goes up on the art wall.
Speaker 5: So again it's like those creative freedom but then limits.
Speaker 5: And I in my organizing work and in my own home,
Speaker 5: I always had kind of a rule of five for kids,
Speaker 5: like no more than five broad categories out at a time.
Speaker 4: And that doesn't mean doing five things at the same time.
Speaker 5: It means like we're only going to visually see five
Speaker 5: categories of stuff in the house. So that could be
Speaker 5: like books, art, puzzles, and games like goes and a
Speaker 5: play kitchen.
Speaker 4: And what I found in organizing other people's homes.
Speaker 5: Is most people had like twenty five categories of stuff,
Speaker 5: and they were overwhelmed, their kids were drowning, nobody could
Speaker 5: make decisions or clean up, and so my goal was
Speaker 5: always like make play really easy and make clean up
Speaker 5: really easy. And so that kind of all through the
Speaker 5: elementary school years was like five categories of stuff if
Speaker 5: they get bored of one thing, they can trade it
Speaker 5: in for another thing. If they're like we no longer
Speaker 5: like lego, Okay, we're going to sell or donate the Lego.
Speaker 5: We can replace it with one thing, but we're not
Speaker 5: just adding more and more forever. And now that they're teenagers,
Speaker 5: it's been kind of fascinating because all they want is
Speaker 5: a device and to hang out with their friends, and
Speaker 5: they have no It's like the stuffies are out.
Speaker 4: They're not interested in even board games, which is kind
Speaker 4: of sad for me.
Speaker 5: But I will say to any parents who feel like
Speaker 5: they're totally drowning, it gets so much easier. Like I
Speaker 5: feel like one day we just woke up and our
Speaker 5: kids were like, yeah, don't need this, don't need this,
Speaker 5: Like just need my phone and my friends.
Speaker 4: So that's been a big ship.
Speaker 2: Have you seen my twelve year old's cosmetic collection? Though,
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just kidding. That's the one area because
Speaker 2: I'm thinking to myself, like, where are we still having
Speaker 2: stuff problems? I'm like, oh, yes, it's the uh, the.
Speaker 4: Recipe and the bubble and I know we all share
Speaker 4: one bathroom and it used to be so curated and
Speaker 4: lovely with like one shampoo and one conditioner and one
Speaker 4: body wash. It Now I'm like, what are all of
Speaker 4: these bath bobs and face masks and skin scrubs. Yeah, so,
Speaker 4: I mean the struggle is real.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 2: I love it. But no, that's super interesting, and it's true,
Speaker 2: like the volume of stuff is naturally going to ebb
Speaker 2: and flow with their phases, and it's nice for listeners
Speaker 2: with younger kids to perhaps hear that it is going
Speaker 2: to get a little bit.
Speaker 4: Better, it gets a lot easier.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about I was living through your new
Speaker 2: book and one you know, you talk about like automation
Speaker 2: and sort of solving problem in the home, and I
Speaker 2: think that one that is super super common for people
Speaker 2: with younger kids and school age kids is when you
Speaker 2: get home and everyone has their backpack and their lunch
Speaker 2: and like blah blah blah, and like everyone's tired. But
Speaker 2: your book has some ideas and solutions for like making
Speaker 2: this less of a thing and perhaps even making your
Speaker 2: house less of a disaster in dealing with those things.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I know I'm not alone. Can you chat with.
Speaker 4: Them or no?
Speaker 5: I think that entry I mean when I'm in a
Speaker 5: house and people are overwhelmed. I always start with the
Speaker 5: entry because I feel like if you can lock in
Speaker 5: good systems for your entry and really curb the clutter
Speaker 5: from coming through the front door and kind of leaking
Speaker 5: all over your house, you're going to have a leg up.
Speaker 5: So what I always think is clutter is information. So
Speaker 5: I don't judge clutter. I'm interested in clutter. What is it,
Speaker 5: why is it here? What does it tell us? And
Speaker 5: so with an entry, it's really interesting to just look
Speaker 5: at kind of the audit of your clutter in your entry,
Speaker 5: what gets dumped and is it getting dumped because there
Speaker 5: is no system?
Speaker 4: That's the first thing.
Speaker 5: Is it getting dumped because people just aren't taking it
Speaker 5: to where it needs to go? And then it's a
Speaker 5: habit problem and not a system problem. But usually I'll
Speaker 5: just do an audit and I'll say to people like,
Speaker 5: do you have an easy place for your kids to
Speaker 5: drop backpacks when they get home from school?
Speaker 4: Like is there a hook at arms reach?
Speaker 5: It's shocking how many people will realize like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 5: we don't, or like our kids can't reach it, and
Speaker 5: that's why they're just dumping it on the floor. So
Speaker 5: I like to get kids super involved, and I like
Speaker 5: to say to them like, Okay, you're walking through the
Speaker 5: front door, where would you want to put your bag,
Speaker 5: and like show me where you can reach, and let's
Speaker 5: put a hook right there, and like have them actually
Speaker 5: stand with their arm out and their backpack and put
Speaker 5: a hook in right where they can see it so
Speaker 5: they have some buy in, like this is a system
Speaker 5: I'm a part of.
Speaker 4: Likewise, with like a jacket, I usually like.
Speaker 5: To do a really sturdy double hook that can have
Speaker 5: a jacket and a backpack. Just like school where kids
Speaker 5: are used to having like a cubby or a locker
Speaker 5: or some sort of system.
Speaker 4: You just want to replicate that in your home.
Speaker 5: So it's like you come in, first thing you see
Speaker 5: is a hook for your drop station. Many people are
Speaker 5: shoe off houses and they have just this mountain of
Speaker 5: shoes by the front door. I like to really limit
Speaker 5: that to one or two pairs per family member and
Speaker 5: store the majority of.
Speaker 4: The shoes back in their closets.
Speaker 5: In our house, we're in a house that's about one
Speaker 5: hundred and twenty years old, and so we don't have
Speaker 5: an entry closet.
Speaker 4: There's no mudroom, there's no system.
Speaker 5: You walk right into our home and you're in the
Speaker 5: living room, so I am walking the walk here, like
Speaker 5: I have put up hooks.
Speaker 4: I made sort of a makeshift.
Speaker 5: Cabinet, and it is literally as simple as some hooks
Speaker 5: for the jackets, the backpacks, the dog leash, and some
Speaker 5: cubbies or even just basket to drop your shoes.
Speaker 4: And the last thing is a place for mail bills,
Speaker 4: kid art, like where do the paper piles go? So
Speaker 4: I personally like to make it as simple as possible.
Speaker 5: I just have a massive, pretty basket in my living
Speaker 5: room kind of blends in with the decor. Everybody knows
Speaker 5: if they want me to look at anything, review anything,
Speaker 5: sign anything, pay anything, it gets dumped in that basket.
Speaker 5: Meaning if they dump it on the counter, it's not
Speaker 5: going to be dealt with. It's going to be thrown away.
Speaker 5: So having those clear rules like with your family of
Speaker 5: put it in the inbox, that's what I call it
Speaker 5: in my house. It's like that's the holy grail of
Speaker 5: family management, is have one place where anything that needs
Speaker 5: your attention can go, and then you just have to
Speaker 5: show up and review it like once a week or so.
Speaker 2: I like the massive inbox idea because it solves the
Speaker 2: problems of like multiple piles all over the place. Plus
Speaker 2: if you're processing it, it makes it very easy to
Speaker 2: be like, Okay, every Friday, I empty the inbox or
Speaker 2: whatever your day of choices and as usual, like it's
Speaker 2: physically getting emptied. It's like we're going back to like
Speaker 2: David Allen put your tests on a list of pieces
Speaker 2: of paper and throw them in a thing or something
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 5: Yeah exactly. I like, yeah, you've got to have a
Speaker 5: date with your inbox. And I think so many people
Speaker 5: over organize. So a lot of my clients are like, well,
Speaker 5: here's where I put bills, and here's where I put
Speaker 5: things that need to be filed, and here's where I
Speaker 5: put my kid.
Speaker 4: And I'm like, no, it's all to dos.
Speaker 5: So centralize your to dos would be a tip. I
Speaker 5: would say, just make it easy. Have them in one place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anything that has a physical manifestation. I like, exactly,
Speaker 2: how do you contend? Like, let's say you're trying, actually
Speaker 2: I have We'll have two step of questions. Let's start
Speaker 2: with the easier one. Let's say you're trying to help
Speaker 2: your family have less stuff over all, but you have
Speaker 2: some younger family members or maybe even a partner with
Speaker 2: very different tendencies.
Speaker 3: Yes, where do.
Speaker 2: You kind of like draw the line or is that
Speaker 2: something where you're just like, I can't worry about them.
Speaker 2: I don't know. How have you handled that?
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's I think that's my most common question and
Speaker 5: struggle for people is everybody has a different clutter threshold.
Speaker 4: That's what I call it.
Speaker 5: Like some people are truly unphased by clutter or piles,
Speaker 5: they don't find them irritating or distracting. And some people
Speaker 5: feel like they can't focus or have peace of mind
Speaker 5: if they're surrounded by laundry and dishes and piles. So
Speaker 5: the first thing, and I will say, like when I
Speaker 5: married my husband, he was a total slob. He dumped
Speaker 5: stuff everywhere. There were no systems, there were no boundaries.
Speaker 5: And my kids are not They do not define themselves
Speaker 5: as minimalists. So I am the minimalist in our home
Speaker 5: right and I have very clear thoughts about how things
Speaker 5: should be, and my family members have very different thoughts
Speaker 5: and they're all valid.
Speaker 4: So what to do about it? So a few things?
Speaker 5: I think Number one is, if you are the person
Speaker 5: who craves order and tidiness, you've got to take responsibility
Speaker 5: for that by managing your own stuff and modeling first.
Speaker 5: And so before you even talk to family members about
Speaker 5: their stuff. I would challenge listeners to edit, organize, and
Speaker 5: systematize every single thing they own without saying a word.
Speaker 5: And I did that in my own home and life,
Speaker 5: and there is kind of a process of osmosis where
Speaker 5: your family members they're not bugged, they're not attacked, but
Speaker 5: they do see things shifting, they see your habits shifting.
Speaker 4: That's step one.
Speaker 5: And it's hard, right because it's so easy to fingerpoint
Speaker 5: and be like, well, my husband is dumping these things
Speaker 5: and the teenagers you know, everywhere. But step one is
Speaker 5: deal with your own stuff first. So until you have
Speaker 5: thoroughly edited and organized and systematized everything you own, so
Speaker 5: your mementos and sentimental stuff, all of your clothes, all
Speaker 5: of your paperwork, all of your books, don't even talk to.
Speaker 4: Them once you have done that.
Speaker 5: What I find it really helpful to do is kind
Speaker 5: of have a family meeting and for the common areas
Speaker 5: in the house, define like what are the terms that
Speaker 5: we're comfortable with for the house, and what are the
Speaker 5: terms for our individual spaces.
Speaker 4: So my need is stronger than anyone else's need.
Speaker 5: Right, So the deal that I got my family to
Speaker 5: agree to is and we have a small house too,
Speaker 5: so we're all on top of each other. So living room,
Speaker 5: dining room, kitchen has a real standard where it's like
Speaker 5: these spaces are going to be clean and minimal and
Speaker 5: dialed in. We're not going to dump stuff, We're going
Speaker 5: to clean up every night, like dishes go away before we.
Speaker 4: Go to bed.
Speaker 5: No piles for my girl's respective rooms. They get to
Speaker 5: own what they want. They have their own money now,
Speaker 5: they can buy things, they get presents. They don't have
Speaker 5: to make their bed perfectly, they don't have to fold
Speaker 5: their clothes perfectly. That's their domain and they can have
Speaker 5: that freedom as long as they maintain the.
Speaker 4: Rest of the house. Likewise, during COVID, we actually built
Speaker 4: like a studio and office.
Speaker 5: In our back for my husband. He has ADHD, he
Speaker 5: has stuff everywhere. He doesn't have systems. He has a
Speaker 5: whole different process and system for how he works than
Speaker 5: I do. And so that has been like a game
Speaker 5: changer for both of us because I am often working
Speaker 5: in our dining room and so I need like calm
Speaker 5: and quiet and peace of mind. And he's fine with
Speaker 5: like three monitors and paper everywhere and coffee mugs everywhere,
Speaker 5: So giving everybody their own slice of real estate, but
Speaker 5: then kind of defining how can we cooperate for those
Speaker 5: common spaces.
Speaker 4: I have found to be the best solution.
Speaker 2: I think that makes sense just from a mental health standpoint.
Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, that is their domain, and as long
Speaker 2: as we're not like having an infestation or something like that,
Speaker 2: then it's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: The one other thing I'll say is finding motivation and
Speaker 5: buy in. Like if you're the person who wants to
Speaker 5: be more minimal or more organized, I will say to
Speaker 5: my kids, like, listen, I know this isn't your thing,
Speaker 5: but if her house is like easy and we don't
Speaker 5: have to clean up all the time, you can have
Speaker 5: friends over whenever you want.
Speaker 4: You can have sleepovers whenever you want. You can have
Speaker 4: movie parties.
Speaker 5: So they've seen the benefits of having a minimal home.
Speaker 5: Is we have an open door policy. Like our house
Speaker 5: is the house that all the teenagers hang out at.
Speaker 5: We host sleepovers all the time. We used to be
Speaker 5: part of a babysitting co op.
Speaker 4: We'd have twenty kids running around eating popcorn so our
Speaker 4: house is fun because it's minimal, and I think that's
Speaker 4: not something you hear.
Speaker 2: Super interesting and I get that, like there's more space,
Speaker 2: it's not like if you don't have a thousand toys
Speaker 2: to wreck everywhere, then cleanup is always going to be easier.
Speaker 2: And that's super interesting how it's benefitted socially. Well, we're
Speaker 2: going to take another quick break and then I'm going
Speaker 2: to ask you about home makeovers. I guess great. All right,
Speaker 2: we're back and we are airing this closer to the
Speaker 2: new year. And so I know, I personally have set
Speaker 2: goals related to organizing my home many many a time,
Speaker 2: and often have ended up finding it much more difficult
Speaker 2: than I thought or quit somewhere in that process. But
Speaker 2: I know that one of your strengths is really motivating people.
Speaker 2: I get that from the pages of your book. I
Speaker 2: read Organized Living, and I'm like, this is so like
Speaker 2: aspirational and motivating. So what would you say to someone
Speaker 2: who is embarking on a project like that? And do
Speaker 2: you have any suggested way of going about it if
Speaker 2: you're sort of in a starting from scratch kind of place,
Speaker 2: And even though I know your work goes beyond this, yeah,
Speaker 2: more focusing on the home space aspect.
Speaker 4: Sure.
Speaker 5: So I think one of the biggest mistakes I see
Speaker 5: people make when trying to organize their whole home is
Speaker 5: trying to organize their whole home at once. And that
Speaker 5: really is so common because we get excited and motivated
Speaker 5: and it's like, all right, I'm ready to deal with this,
Speaker 5: and then what commonly happens is people just kind of
Speaker 5: run from room to room, like straightening a little thing here,
Speaker 5: organizing a little thing there, and they never really see
Speaker 5: massive transformation or impact. So my number one rule is
Speaker 5: you must start small and specific. So if you feel
Speaker 5: like you want to organize and declutter your entire home,
Speaker 5: what I would do is I would make a list
Speaker 5: of every room in your house or every space, so
Speaker 5: it could be like your entry, closet, living dining, kitchen, bedrooms, bathroom,
Speaker 5: storage areas. Then I would rank them in order. And
Speaker 5: people are always like, where do I start? If you
Speaker 5: don't know where to start with either your entry or
Speaker 5: your bedroom. I say this because the entry we already
Speaker 5: went over. It's just a high traffic zone, high impact
Speaker 5: for organizing.
Speaker 4: Your bedroom is where you end your day and start
Speaker 4: your day, and it often does not feel like a
Speaker 4: spa or a zen like place, and I think it's a.
Speaker 5: Lower impact project. Like I would say the kitchen is
Speaker 5: the highest impact. There's just the most stuff, the most zones,
Speaker 5: the most going on there. So if you really don't
Speaker 5: know where to start and you can't figure out, I
Speaker 5: would say entry and then bedroom. But you want to
Speaker 5: make that list and then you just want to focus
Speaker 5: one space at a time and kind of have like
Speaker 5: tunnel vision where even if everything feels chaotic, you're saying
Speaker 5: to your brain, it's okay, brain, we have a list,
Speaker 5: we've made a plan.
Speaker 4: We're going to go in order. We're going to tackle everything.
Speaker 5: But right now we're only doing the entry and we're
Speaker 5: not touching any other space or any other project until
Speaker 5: the entry is edited, organized and styled. So when I
Speaker 5: work with clients, that's really the first thing I do
Speaker 5: is I'm like, Okay, what are all the spaces, Let's
Speaker 5: rank them in order, and then we just go one, two, three, four, five, six,
Speaker 5: So that really helps people. I also would say having
Speaker 5: easy places to donate. One of the things that really
Speaker 5: trips people up is Okay, I've decluttered, but now I
Speaker 5: just have like my bags of stuff everywhere, and you
Speaker 5: have to have an easy way to get that out
Speaker 5: the front door. So even as simple as just saying like, Okay,
Speaker 5: where is my most easy, convenient drop off point for
Speaker 5: household goods? Do I have a place for harder to
Speaker 5: donate things like electronics or paint or hazardous waste? Like
Speaker 5: doing half an hour of research and having your drop
Speaker 5: stations ready so that once you've hit one space, I
Speaker 5: would say, as soon as that entry is decluttered and organized,
Speaker 5: you do your trash donate, recycle run, and now it's
Speaker 5: time to move on to the next space, so it
Speaker 5: really feels complete.
Speaker 2: I think that's been a struggle for me, the oh
Speaker 2: I'm going to donate it, and then I have a
Speaker 2: pile and like, I mean my case, we have a
Speaker 2: large garage, so there's no reason it couldn't go in there.
Speaker 2: But I like your idea of like making it easy
Speaker 2: and like having a category set up ahead of time,
Speaker 2: like this stuff goes there, this stuff goes there's automated.
Speaker 5: Yes, and use your kids if you have kids, they're
Speaker 5: always my runners. So I'll drive to all the drop
Speaker 5: up places and be like okay, like take this bag
Speaker 5: and go drop it off and come back and then
Speaker 5: I'm just the chauffeur. And I think it's also good
Speaker 5: to model for your family, like the letting go process,
Speaker 5: the donating responsibly. But yeah, make sure you have a
Speaker 5: plan to get this stuff out. And the other thing
Speaker 5: I would say that people usually don't slow down enough
Speaker 5: to think about is your why.
Speaker 4: Why are you decluttering?
Speaker 5: Why are you wanting to get organized or make a
Speaker 5: change in your home? That is where I always start,
Speaker 5: and it really is the most important step, because if
Speaker 5: you don't have a why, you're not going to stay motivated,
Speaker 5: You're not going to stay energized, and you're just going
Speaker 5: to be moving piles around. If you have a clear
Speaker 5: and motivating why, like I want to save money to
Speaker 5: save for a trip, or I'm so exhausted from losing things,
Speaker 5: I want to improve my quality of life, You've got
Speaker 5: to have something that keeps you energized throughout the process.
Speaker 2: I like that you can put it on your phone
Speaker 2: background screen motivate or something like that.
Speaker 4: I love that.
Speaker 2: And you know something really interesting that I hadn't heard,
Speaker 2: which was edit and then something and then style. Can
Speaker 2: you go through those edit organized? Is?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: So the process I outline in my first book, Minimalista.
Speaker 5: It's a five step process. You can apply it to
Speaker 5: any space including your junk drawer, your basement, anything.
Speaker 4: So step one is clarify why are you doing this?
Speaker 4: What are your goals?
Speaker 5: Step two is edit. That's always what you want to
Speaker 5: do before you organize. Is you want to let go
Speaker 5: of the clutter, let go of the things that are
Speaker 5: not serving you. Then organize, which I make organization very
Speaker 5: very simple. It is grouping similar things together and every
Speaker 5: category has a home.
Speaker 4: And then elevate, which.
Speaker 5: That's what I call kind of like the cherry on top,
Speaker 5: which is I want to now invest in beautiful drawer
Speaker 5: liners or matching hangers for my closet, or beautiful baskets
Speaker 5: for the laundry room. So elevating is kind of the
Speaker 5: fun part for people, and I have put it intentionally
Speaker 5: at the end because it's the reward and you don't
Speaker 5: want to try to elevate before you've edited and organized.
Speaker 4: It doesn't make any sense. And the last step is maintained.
Speaker 5: So because life isn't static, kids are growing out of things,
Speaker 5: gifts are coming in. You've got to have systems in place,
Speaker 5: like even as simple as a donation bag in your entry,
Speaker 5: your mudroom, or in the closets, having a one in
Speaker 5: one out process, doing a seasonal cleanse before holidays or
Speaker 5: birthdays so that you can kind of maintain that balance
Speaker 5: that you've achieved.
Speaker 2: Awesome, I love it. I'm feeling more motivated already.
Speaker 4: Oh good.
Speaker 2: I want to tell listeners Shira's Organized Living book is
Speaker 2: amazing and now I'm super excited to get my hands
Speaker 2: on the first one. But her third one is coming out,
Speaker 2: and I wanted to give her a chance. So that
Speaker 2: one is like, it's like a lot of these principles
Speaker 2: but applied very broadly. Is that right correct?
Speaker 4: Yeah? So what happened is so minimalista.
Speaker 5: My first book really breaks down my entire toolkit for
Speaker 5: how to edit, organize, and style every room in your house.
Speaker 5: And when I finished that book, I've been an organizer
Speaker 5: for fifteen years. So I have all of these friends
Speaker 5: who were organizers, and whenever I would go to their homes,
Speaker 5: I would be really nosy and I would say like, oh,
Speaker 5: can I see how you organize under your kitchen sink
Speaker 5: or in your medicine cabinet?
Speaker 4: And I would always come away with.
Speaker 5: These new, fresh ideas and inspiration, because every organizer is different.
Speaker 5: So my second book, which was really the experience of
Speaker 5: a lifetime, I got to travel around the world interviewing
Speaker 5: twenty five of the top organizings in the world and
Speaker 5: touring their homes.
Speaker 4: And through this process of.
Speaker 5: Learning the systems and the habits and the methods of
Speaker 5: twenty five very different organizers, from minimalists to maximalist people
Speaker 5: that focus just on paper, or just on pantry, or
Speaker 5: just on closet. I had this epiphany towards the end
Speaker 5: of writing that book where I realized all of the organizers,
Speaker 5: including myself, had three things in common, and the three
Speaker 5: steps were volume, systems and habits. And so I started thinking, Okay,
Speaker 5: if we can apply this to any home, like automating
Speaker 5: systems implementing good habits to create a home that functions.
Speaker 5: What if we took those same things volume systems and
Speaker 5: habits and applied it to our life. And so my
Speaker 5: third book, Lifestyled, which is coming out very soon, basically
Speaker 5: takes this and applies it to things like your schedule,
Speaker 5: your relationships, your finances, your health and wellness, your community service.
Speaker 5: Like I really tested this in my own life and
Speaker 5: found it to be hugely helpful. I'm a person where
Speaker 5: it's really easy for me kind of effortlessly to edit
Speaker 5: and organize my home, but my life was feeling very
Speaker 5: full and overstuffed and chaotic, and everybody that I talked
Speaker 5: to was likewise feeling like they were drowning with the
Speaker 5: endless to dos and the responsibilities and so much kind
Speaker 5: of clamoring for their attention. So in this book, what
Speaker 5: I really dive into is how do you create a
Speaker 5: more intentional life.
Speaker 4: How do you make the tough cuts the edits not
Speaker 4: just your home but your life.
Speaker 5: How do you learn how to set boundaries and say
Speaker 5: no and clarify what your biggest yeses are? And how
Speaker 5: do you figure out how to create this volume system's
Speaker 5: framework in every part of your life. So I apply
Speaker 5: it to finances. I talk about how I run a
Speaker 5: minimalist business. So I've applied all of these tips that
Speaker 5: I've outlined for the home to business, to finances to relationships,
Speaker 5: like how do you cut the relationship clutter? It's hard
Speaker 5: to edit friends, but it's important right to decide who
Speaker 5: are the people that are really worthy of my time
Speaker 5: and my energy and my attention Because that's precious, Like
Speaker 5: our most precious resource is our time, and so this
Speaker 5: is a book that really gets into this.
Speaker 2: I love the extension and I love the fresh perspective
Speaker 2: on some of those topics we love to talk about
Speaker 2: all the time anyways, So that's great, super exciting. Yeah, well, Shira,
Speaker 2: tell listeners where they can find you and learn more
Speaker 2: about you, and remind everybody your book coming out and
Speaker 2: the name and everything.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely so.
Speaker 5: My website is kind of my hub for all things
Speaker 5: including you can sign up for my substack, where I
Speaker 5: have subscribers from all over the world and every one
Speaker 5: of the fifty States, and we're all kind of simplifying together.
Speaker 5: It has my three books, so Minimalista, Organized Living, and
Speaker 5: Lifestyled and you can follow me on Instagram at Shira
Speaker 5: Gill for tips and inspiration on how to simplify and
Speaker 5: streamline home and life.
Speaker 2: Love before we go, and I forgot to warn you
Speaker 2: this part, but don't worry, it's not scary, not scary.
Speaker 2: We do a Love of the Week every week and
Speaker 2: it can be anything, can be a product, can be
Speaker 2: like a TV show you just watched. It could be literally,
Speaker 2: I mean the weather. I don't care not the weather
Speaker 2: where I am, because I'm in South Florida and it's terrible.
Speaker 4: Weather where I am.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the weather where you are is probably amazing.
Speaker 2: So I'll go first to give you a minute to
Speaker 2: think of yours, and I'm going to share. Charity Navigator
Speaker 2: is a website where you can like So we're recording
Speaker 2: this a little ahead of schedule, and there's been a
Speaker 2: lot of weather disaster recently, and I was like wanting
Speaker 2: to donate, yeah, but I wanted to make sure I
Speaker 2: was donating to something that like seemed like a good,
Speaker 2: well run organization. It was going to go to the
Speaker 2: right people and stuff. So Charity Navigator you can actually
Speaker 2: search by cause, so if you wanted to donate for
Speaker 2: even like a certain storm or certain whatever, it'll give
Speaker 2: you all the charities that are linked to that with
Speaker 2: like ratings and information about them and that kind of thing,
Speaker 2: and then you can actually donate, like through their platform,
Speaker 2: but it still goes directly to the charity.
Speaker 5: So yeah, wow, I love that, Like, how do I
Speaker 5: beat that?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 4: A lot of times about my favorite water bottle.
Speaker 2: Don't worry. Last week it was like Emily in Paris,
Speaker 2: So yeah, not always it's it's we Are. This is
Speaker 2: just a mixed bag, but that just happened to be
Speaker 2: useful for me this week, so I love it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm trying to think there are so many things
Speaker 5: I've been loving and paying attention to. I mean, I
Speaker 5: recently rewatched the documentary The Minimalists, which yeah, is just
Speaker 5: always kind of a good refresher for me. They you know,
Speaker 5: it's the Too minimal Lists, who many people are familiar with,
Speaker 5: and they have a podcast, but their documentary is quite
Speaker 5: old but really not outdated, and they interview a lot
Speaker 5: of people who are doing life differently, who are taking
Speaker 5: the path less traveled of like living in an airstream
Speaker 5: trailer or living in a tree house, and some of
Speaker 5: it's quite extreme, but it really paints a picture of
Speaker 5: like how our consumption has gotten out of hand and
Speaker 5: a real actionable antidote and that. And I also love
Speaker 5: watching Tiny House Nation, which is also like kind of
Speaker 5: an outdated resource, but I just go back to it
Speaker 5: again and again, and whenever I watch it, I feel
Speaker 5: so inspired to declutter, even like another layer deeper, and
Speaker 5: it really shows all of these different people motivated by
Speaker 5: simplifying their life, saving money, living with more freedom and autonomy.
Speaker 5: So those are two things that I suggest and I.
Speaker 4: Personally just go back to again and again for kind
Speaker 4: of like a little boost of inspiration.
Speaker 2: I love both of those, like cause it's not even
Speaker 2: necessarily like I'm going to live in a tiny house,
Speaker 2: but it makes you realize that all the things we
Speaker 2: take for granted as normal, like how many of them
Speaker 2: are not actually necessary? So I think I watch that.
Speaker 2: I think that's great. I love that idea.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I also just did on my substack today so
Speaker 5: readers can find it. I literally did an inventory of
Speaker 5: every single thing I own in my house. That's fun,
Speaker 5: which is like a little bit insane, but I always
Speaker 5: have people saying, you know, like well, how many clothes.
Speaker 4: Do you have? And how many books do you have?
Speaker 5: Like as a minimalist, people are so curious about it,
Speaker 5: and especially because I'm a mom and I have teenagers
Speaker 5: and I have a husband and we have a dog.
Speaker 4: So that is a resource that I will share too.
Speaker 4: That's on my substack.
Speaker 5: You can if you like knowing things like how many
Speaker 5: things people own. I literally detail every single thing that
Speaker 5: I own, And the comments section is pretty fascinating too,
Speaker 5: with other people responding about what they own and how
Speaker 5: different it.
Speaker 2: That is awesome. I think we probably have twelve hair
Speaker 2: brushes in my house. All right. Well, on that note,
Speaker 2: I am not winning the minimalist, but I'm super inspired. Shira.
Speaker 2: This was a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 3: Well we were back. That was great.
Speaker 1: Sarah interviewing Shira Gill, author of the brand new book Lifestyle. So, Sarah,
Speaker 1: here's our question for the week. Where do you put
Speaker 1: tasks that you want to do soon but you don't
Speaker 1: know the specific timeframe yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I've been obsessed with task management recently because I
Speaker 2: feel like everyone has their own system for this, or
Speaker 2: they like think there shouldn't be a system. I don't know.
Speaker 2: There's just so many hot takes on this, and yet
Speaker 2: I feel like whatever I'm doing works really well. So
Speaker 2: I want to share that in the way that I
Speaker 2: cannot to say that there's only one way of doing it.
Speaker 2: But for anything that is soonish, I have the fairly
Speaker 2: low friction method of pulling out my planner picking a week,
Speaker 2: maybe not this week, but like maybe next week if
Speaker 2: it looks kind I'm okay, or maybe the week after
Speaker 2: that if it looks kind of okay, and just writing
Speaker 2: it down on the column on the left hand side,
Speaker 2: so it's like assigned to the week. It's not getting
Speaker 2: a specific calendar slot. It's just like, eh, this week,
Speaker 2: this should be a priority, so that when I go
Speaker 2: to planning to day that week, that will be one
Speaker 2: of the options to get it done, and that way
Speaker 2: I know I won't forget it. This wasn't asked in
Speaker 2: the question. But if it's more like something very very
Speaker 2: important or a constrained timeframe, then I'm more likely to
Speaker 2: actually just put it on a specific day and give
Speaker 2: it its own schedule item.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just choose a random date right like when
Speaker 1: I think I will get to it, and then when
Speaker 1: I come to that in my calendar as part of
Speaker 1: my planning, so I'm looking at it like a week
Speaker 1: or two before I will see it, and then I
Speaker 1: can make a decision like am I actually going to
Speaker 1: choose that as a priority for the next week, or
Speaker 1: am I going to punt it forward to another future date,
Speaker 1: you know, another week or two in the future, another
Speaker 1: three months in the future, if it's not urgent, you know,
Speaker 1: who knows. But the upside, you can choose a date
Speaker 1: for something, even if you're not planning on doing it
Speaker 1: on that date, as long as you have a system
Speaker 1: where you will see it, right, yes, And that is
Speaker 1: the key part, Like you have to make sure that
Speaker 1: you have a system you will trust that you.
Speaker 3: Won't lose that thing.
Speaker 1: So I've been doing this for like a book I
Speaker 1: want to read that the author hasn't gotten out yet,
Speaker 1: Like I want to read it when it comes out,
Speaker 1: but I keep like punting it forward another six months
Speaker 1: to check, like has this stupid book been released yet?
Speaker 2: Because I'm it's obscure enough that I.
Speaker 1: Don't know that I will see it like in regular
Speaker 1: media that I consume.
Speaker 3: So you know, I just like six months I come
Speaker 3: up with it. I'm like, huh, look is it out?
Speaker 1: Nope, not out do another six months in the future,
Speaker 1: but you know, I haven't forgotten about it yet without
Speaker 1: it taking up too much mental space.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like checking in on the dentist or something.
Speaker 2: A benefit of doing it your way is that is
Speaker 2: actually more a minimal to about how most digital systems work.
Speaker 2: So like in Google calendar, you can't flip forward and
Speaker 2: assign something to a week, but you actually can assign
Speaker 2: it to a day, so people who are digital only
Speaker 2: might really love Laura's method as well, even though she
Speaker 2: does it, I think on paper.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And because it's on paper, I just put it
Speaker 1: on that calendar page which has a whole week. So
Speaker 1: sometimes I will put it on the Monday of the week,
Speaker 1: like we actually write it on the Monday. But sometimes
Speaker 1: I'll just put it across the top because I'll see
Speaker 1: it either way, and then the Friday before or two
Speaker 1: fridays before to pick because I usually look forward just
Speaker 1: a week or.
Speaker 3: Two, I will see it.
Speaker 1: And because I know I will see it, I can
Speaker 1: then make a decision at that point.
Speaker 3: But yeah, figuring out how to send notes to.
Speaker 1: Your future self is like a key part of time
Speaker 1: management and planning because there's so many things that the
Speaker 1: obvious trigger for you to think about them is not
Speaker 1: a useful trigger. Like if you want tulips in your
Speaker 1: yard in April, you need to plant them in the fall,
Speaker 1: like the bulbs need to get planted in the fall.
Speaker 1: And so people think about this in April when they say, oh,
Speaker 1: look at my neighbor's pretty tulips, right, that does nothing for.
Speaker 3: You because you can do nothing about it at that moment.
Speaker 1: But you can put a note on a page in
Speaker 1: October in your planner, or put choose any date in
Speaker 1: October in your digital calendar and say plant bulbs, and
Speaker 1: then when you get to October you will see that
Speaker 1: and you can either put it on your priority list
Speaker 1: for that week for another week. You could not do it.
Speaker 1: You can decide you don't actually care. You'll be happy
Speaker 1: to be the yard without the tulips come April. But
Speaker 1: at least you're not going to not do it because
Speaker 1: the obvious trigger wasn't the right one.
Speaker 2: So simple and so effective and yeah, I just love it.
Speaker 2: It's like, don't lose it, don't lose it?
Speaker 3: All right? Well, this has been best of both worlds.
Speaker 1: We've been talking about getting more organizing, styling our life
Speaker 1: with Shira Gil. We will be back next week with
Speaker 1: more on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
Speaker 2: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
Speaker 2: and you.
Speaker 1: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
Speaker 1: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
Speaker 1: us next time for more on making work and life
Speaker 1: work together.