Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, maya here. I hope you're settling into the
Speaker 2: change of seasons. October is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month,
Speaker 2: and it has me reflecting on an experience that my
Speaker 2: husband and I, along with our gestational surrogate Hailey, navigated
Speaker 2: a few years ago. Many of you know about my
Speaker 2: slight change of plans when I hurt my hand and
Speaker 2: had to give up my dream of becoming a concert violinist.
Speaker 2: This is another important part of my story, and I
Speaker 2: hope that sharing my reflections might bring some comfort if
Speaker 2: you've experienced loss of any kind. I appreciate your listening.
Speaker 2: Dad jokes that when I was like a five year
Speaker 2: old or whatnot, he'd come down to the basement and
Speaker 2: I'd be with my little kitchen set. I'd be on
Speaker 2: this pretend phone having conversations with my fictitious neighbors about
Speaker 2: my rebellious children. I'd be like, Oh, you wouldn't believe it, Karen,
Speaker 2: Little Bobby is driving me crazy. First of all, it
Speaker 2: says a lot about my assimilation that my child's name
Speaker 2: was Bobby, despite the fact I'm Indian and Rob you
Speaker 2: might have been more appropriate. But I don't think there's
Speaker 2: ever been anything more that mattered to me than eventually
Speaker 2: becoming a parent. I mean, it's just it's always been
Speaker 2: a guiding force. That's me, Maya Shunker. As you can
Speaker 2: probably tell, we're mixing things up on today's episode. Instead
Speaker 2: of coming to you as the host, Maya Shunker, cognitive scientist,
Speaker 2: I'm coming to you as just me Maya. Recently, I
Speaker 2: was on my way to finally becoming a mom, which
Speaker 2: had in years in the making. When my husband Jimmy,
Speaker 2: and I learned I can't healthily carry a baby. We
Speaker 2: explored gestational surrogacy, having someone else carry our baby. This
Speaker 2: has involved fertility treatments, freezing our embryos, and finding a
Speaker 2: surrogate match. Things were finally coming together these past few
Speaker 2: months until we were thrown our own change of plans.
Speaker 2: I never intended to share such a deeply personal story,
Speaker 2: but then I realized that's kind of what this show
Speaker 2: is all about. My guests come here to process their
Speaker 2: experiences with change out loud, and I realized I wanted
Speaker 2: to do the same. So two days after I got
Speaker 2: some terrible news, I asked my producer and friend Tyler Green,
Speaker 2: to turn on the mics and interview me. This is
Speaker 2: a slight change of plants, a show about who we
Speaker 2: are and who we become in the face of a
Speaker 2: big change. We started our conversation by talking about Jimmy
Speaker 2: and me and our search for a surrogate match when
Speaker 2: we moved out to California. That's really when our journey began.
Speaker 2: And it's very scary, obviously, right. I mean, to trust
Speaker 2: someone so much that you're willing to put your child's
Speaker 2: development and well being in their hands is nothing small,
Speaker 2: you know, So, I mean, the surrogacy matching process is
Speaker 2: so interesting. It feels like you're dating again, Like you're
Speaker 2: looking at all these profiles of women who can potentially
Speaker 2: carry your baby. And unlike a traditional dating profile, which
Speaker 2: is like, you know, I love playing soccer and making dinners,
Speaker 2: they're like, you know, here's my dynocological history, and here's
Speaker 2: the nature of my three berths that I had with.
Speaker 1: My own children.
Speaker 2: It feels totally nuts to be learning some intimate details
Speaker 2: about a person's medical history and to be judging compatibility
Speaker 2: based on based on these factors. It's like, hey, how's
Speaker 2: your uterine lining? Does it respond well to fertility treatments?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Like, that's nuts.
Speaker 2: Usually, as I go about the world, I'm focusing on
Speaker 2: people's personalities and whether I like them and whether they
Speaker 2: like me. And suddenly you're in this world where all
Speaker 2: these bizarre metrics matter more than anything else, which is
Speaker 2: this person's pregnancy history and their ability to conceive.
Speaker 3: You're like, it's not match dot com anymore, but it
Speaker 3: looks almost the same.
Speaker 1: There's all these things exactly.
Speaker 3: But wow, didn't know I needed to know that exactly.
Speaker 2: So we're sifting through all these profiles and we come
Speaker 2: across one. Her name's Haley, sorry, okay, and she just
Speaker 2: looks perfect.
Speaker 1: She looks perfect.
Speaker 2: She's smiling in her photo with Minnie Mouse ears on
Speaker 2: her head. It's a picture with her and her daughter
Speaker 2: in like Disney World. I read her profile. She's got
Speaker 2: three beautiful children of her own. She's a stay at
Speaker 2: home mom. She is incredibly artistic and creative and builds
Speaker 2: amazing things in her home. And she's also a social activist.
Speaker 2: And I still remember when I looked at her profile.
Speaker 2: You know, usually you write a paragraph about yourself at
Speaker 2: the end, to just say you know why you're interested
Speaker 2: in being a surrogate and what draws you to it,
Speaker 2: and you know, this is an opportunity for women to
Speaker 2: say why they think they'd be a great surrogate for you.
Speaker 2: And she said, I feel so self conscious talking positively
Speaker 2: about myself. I've asked my sister instead to share what
Speaker 2: why she thinks, you know, I might make a great surrogate.
Speaker 2: And it was such a beautiful description of Haley, you know,
Speaker 2: generous in such a deep way, so loving, so caring,
Speaker 2: and so loyal. And you know, at the time, I
Speaker 2: didn't know how much that loyalty trait would matter, but
Speaker 2: it did, and so I still remember it was the
Speaker 2: middle of my work day and I go into a
Speaker 2: conference room and we meet Haley over video, and it
Speaker 2: was it was like love at first sight, you know,
Speaker 2: that's the best way to describe it. I think we
Speaker 2: all felt so bonded to each other.
Speaker 1: I'd always seen it as.
Speaker 2: Such a liability, like why can't I carry this baby?
Speaker 2: Why can't I carry this baby? And when I met
Speaker 2: Haley for the first time ever, I thought, It's okay.
Speaker 2: Knowing her and having it be her will make this
Speaker 2: We'll make this just as good, even better, because I
Speaker 2: had the opportunity to get to know someone like her
Speaker 2: and I had never felt that way before. You know,
Speaker 2: usually after a video call like that, you give both
Speaker 2: sides some time to figure out whether they think it's right.
Speaker 1: I think we just wrote to each other within like a.
Speaker 2: Minute, like we're in, the other sides like we're in,
Speaker 2: and so we might have been the fastest match that
Speaker 2: ever happened.
Speaker 3: I love that. So what happens next?
Speaker 2: We plan to do our embryo transfer in February of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, so she comes out here. And there's also
Speaker 2: there's also this like grading system with embryos. They look
Speaker 2: at the embryos under a microscope, and so it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: this one's a six double A and this one's a
Speaker 2: two DD, And you're like, is this predictive of anything?
Speaker 2: Like I'm walking down the street being like, is that
Speaker 2: person a six double A? Like, what's Obama?
Speaker 3: Six? Triple A? For sure? Probably a seven? Just a seven?
Speaker 2: What's Beyonce? I need to know what Beyonce is? Like
Speaker 2: if Beyonce was a like three CB or like a
Speaker 2: two d D, that gives hope to embryos everywhere. Okay,
Speaker 2: So anyway, we were we chose our best looking embryo
Speaker 2: and they were all genetically tested, so we had you know,
Speaker 2: we knew that they were chromosomally normal.
Speaker 1: So we choose choose our best one.
Speaker 2: And I remember sitting in the ultrasound room that day
Speaker 2: because you know, Kaylee was She's so inclusive throughout the process.
Speaker 2: You know, I was like, do you prefer we're out
Speaker 2: of the room in the room, like at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, this is her body, and she said,
Speaker 2: I can't imagine not having you guys in the room.
Speaker 1: So we're in the room. The lights go off and
Speaker 1: I see.
Speaker 2: Them take our little girl embryo and implant her, and
Speaker 2: I I was overwhelmed by emotion and like, I didn't
Speaker 2: even I don't think of myself as that kind of person,
Speaker 2: like Jimmy's the one who cries at Disney movies, up
Speaker 2: Mulan the Lion King. Like I might get a little,
Speaker 2: you know, heary eyed. But I was so surprised, and
Speaker 2: I think it was we can cry for lots of reasons,
Speaker 2: but I think it was it was a combination of
Speaker 2: so many factors. I think one was profound relief that
Speaker 2: this moment was finally happening. You know, it had been
Speaker 2: years in the making, to just see it happening finally
Speaker 2: with like a real human Haley sitting there like that
Speaker 2: was overwhelming for me. And then I also just visualized her.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, well, she have thick, curly hair
Speaker 2: like me. You know, you just have these images. I
Speaker 2: just imagine her with like you know, I kind of
Speaker 2: had just a bunch of curls shooting off my head
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, and they had There was
Speaker 2: no order, it was just randomness everywhere. I was like,
Speaker 2: I wonder, she'll have my you know, Shirley Temple spiral curls,
Speaker 2: but with like an ethnic twist because they're you know,
Speaker 2: kind of it's I have textured hair.
Speaker 3: I have to see those pictures. By the way, I'm
Speaker 3: not letting that go.
Speaker 2: I will send them to you and so. And I
Speaker 2: just remember holding Jimmy's hands so tightly and it was
Speaker 2: a beautiful moment. And you know, we left and obviously
Speaker 2: we have nerves and whatnot. And you know the way
Speaker 2: that it works, you're supposed to wait until ten days
Speaker 2: after to do the formal blood work. That Haley wasn't
Speaker 2: going to wait, so she was going to the store
Speaker 2: buying pregnancy tests. She proceeds to send us images of
Speaker 2: all the pregnancy tests she's been taking over the preceding
Speaker 2: days of the line darkening and darkening and darkening, and
Speaker 2: it's very positive. And she gets her blood test done
Speaker 2: and we're having a.
Speaker 1: Baby girl, you know.
Speaker 2: And so we're over the moon and we sign in
Speaker 2: buy a video to that first ulture sound and we
Speaker 2: see her little heart beating and in the same way
Speaker 2: that Haley was perfect to us, that little embryo seemed
Speaker 2: freaking perfect to us, too, so cute and like the
Speaker 2: nurse said to Haley and us, your little gal's measuring perfectly.
Speaker 2: Her heart's beating at a perfect rate. We're good and
Speaker 2: so yeah, we felt so relieved, you know. And we
Speaker 2: go home and it's so funny how these surrogacy pregnancies work.
Speaker 2: You know, you want to be able to control things,
Speaker 2: so you end up focusing on really small things like
Speaker 2: is her a multi vitamin? Like the best version of
Speaker 2: the multi vitamin, you know, Like how much folic acid
Speaker 2: is she getting? You know, Like you just start asking
Speaker 2: yourself all these really small things. It's a it's like
Speaker 2: that Iceberg analogy. You just see the tips. So you
Speaker 2: focus on all those things that you think are in
Speaker 2: your control, but underneath the surface there's a ton of
Speaker 2: stuff that's totally not present to you and is totally
Speaker 2: out of your control. And it's about nine thirty at night,
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, we get a text from
Speaker 2: Haley and she says, are you guys up? And we
Speaker 2: immediately know something's wrong, because, like, why is she texting
Speaker 2: us at eleven thirty her time asking you for up?
Speaker 2: We call her and she says, I just started bleeding
Speaker 2: profusely and I think I maybe miscarrying and I'm not
Speaker 2: sure what's happening. And my heart just sank and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, how is this possible. We
Speaker 2: just saw the baby a few hours ago on the ultrasound,
Speaker 2: you know, looking super healthy and happy, and Hayley was
Speaker 2: healthy and happy. Like it just felt like a tragedy,
Speaker 2: you know, And to go from the highest of highs
Speaker 2: to the lowest of lows within a six hour period,
Speaker 2: it just felt cruel. Sure enough, she goes in the
Speaker 2: next morning for an ultrasound and there's nothing there, you know,
Speaker 2: like there was something there the day before, but there's
Speaker 2: nothing there today.
Speaker 1: That's what they told us.
Speaker 2: So she had miscarried and I will tell you the
Speaker 2: hardest part about a surrogacy journey is that there's a
Speaker 2: third person grieving along with you, and that's so excruciating.
Speaker 2: It's like, Jimmy and I felt like we could manage
Speaker 2: our own pain, but to see someone who was so
Speaker 2: loving and only wanted to bring us joy suffering and
Speaker 2: in pain and going through the physical trauma of a
Speaker 2: miscarriage like bleeding throughout the entire night and horrible cramping
Speaker 2: and feeling nauseated and dizzy and all the things. Like,
Speaker 2: it's so horrible. It's so horrible to have a third person.
Speaker 2: And you know, in our minds, we're thinking, because guilt
Speaker 2: is an inevitable feeling on all on all sides, we're
Speaker 2: thinking to ourselves like we're the reason Haley had our
Speaker 2: first miscarriage, you know, That's what we're thinking. And Haley's
Speaker 2: probably thinking why did this happen?
Speaker 1: Like why why?
Speaker 2: Why couldn't I make this work? And we're all having
Speaker 2: these irrational thoughts that are not rooted in real things,
Speaker 2: because you just want to find an explanation.
Speaker 1: You know, you want to.
Speaker 2: You want to blame someone, and the easiest person to
Speaker 2: blame is yourself or like who else am I to
Speaker 2: blame the universe? Like I don't you know, so I
Speaker 2: just wanted to blame myself.
Speaker 1: For everything.
Speaker 2: And so so that happens, And the reason why it
Speaker 2: was so painful, Tyler, is that it happened the day
Speaker 2: before we all entered quarantine in California, so we couldn't
Speaker 2: even grieve with our close friends and family, like the
Speaker 2: very small circle of people we had told about this pregnancy.
Speaker 3: And at this point, where you were you thinking, I'm
Speaker 3: sure you had actually many thoughts at this point, like
Speaker 3: should we work together with Haley again or somebody else?
Speaker 2: It's a great question. We so desperately wanted to work
Speaker 2: with Haley, and we were hoping doctors would tell us
Speaker 2: that we could, that it would make sense to Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: you know, they said, we have no reason to believe
Speaker 2: anything really about this situation, like there's a lot of
Speaker 2: miscarriages at six weeks, and we were really concerned at
Speaker 2: the time, like, well, Haley be down for this. She
Speaker 2: just went through a traumatic experience and one that she
Speaker 2: did not you know, you can sign up for this,
Speaker 2: but like do you really know what that's going to be? Like,
Speaker 2: you know, and so one thing that really touched our
Speaker 2: hearts is when she said, I'm in this with you
Speaker 2: until the end. I will do this until you become parents.
Speaker 3: And just to catch us up on the timeline, so
Speaker 3: this is this is again March of twenty twenty exactly.
Speaker 3: And then at some point you make a decision to
Speaker 3: try again or you're able to try again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we all get vaccinated, but we try again,
Speaker 2: and so she comes out here and we go through
Speaker 2: the whole process again. So this is August of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one. Okay, so it's August twenty twenty one. Haley
Speaker 2: flies out here and we just had a wonderful time
Speaker 2: because it was in some ways it was as though
Speaker 2: no time has passed, right because we felt so close
Speaker 2: to her. But in other ways it was as though
Speaker 2: so much time had passed, because you could see changes
Speaker 2: in the depth of our conversation and just how comfortable
Speaker 2: we felt with each other.
Speaker 1: And so we go into the room and.
Speaker 2: I can already feel some of the light you know,
Speaker 2: PTSD feelings kicking in because this time when we're doing
Speaker 2: the ultrasound, I don't cry to do the transfer, I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, the embryo transfer. I'm just I'm holding my
Speaker 2: breath more than I did the first time. Like I
Speaker 2: feel a little anxious, you know, and you know everyone's like,
Speaker 2: just stay positive, stay positive, stay positive.
Speaker 1: So I so we stayed positive.
Speaker 2: And within two weeks we got those darkening line pregnancy tests.
Speaker 2: I told her that, you know her, her hormone levels
Speaker 2: were super high this time. So I was like, Haley,
Speaker 2: you're pregnant AF. So that was our that was our
Speaker 2: WhatsApp group name, Haley's Pregnant AF. We'll be right back
Speaker 2: to the slight change of plans. When Jimmy and I
Speaker 2: found out that Haley was pregnant again, we were ecstatic.
Speaker 2: We had transferred one embryo and we felt so fortunate
Speaker 2: it had worked. Jimmy and I would go for long
Speaker 2: walks together and start imagining what life would be like
Speaker 2: with our little Chinese Indian baby, and we named her
Speaker 2: like Karina, that's going to be our name. So as
Speaker 2: pregnant AF with Karina shunker Lee. And she's pregnant, and
Speaker 2: like clockwork, on exactly the same day, Haley gets morning
Speaker 2: sickness as she did the first pregnancy. Everything's going super well,
Speaker 2: her levels are looking super strong.
Speaker 3: And.
Speaker 2: I just start I just start feeling anxious as the
Speaker 2: six week mark approaches, because it feels very irrational and
Speaker 2: like there's no reason at all to believe that if
Speaker 2: there's a miscarriage, it would happen, you know, at the
Speaker 2: six week mark, right like it could happen at seven
Speaker 2: and a half weeks, it could happen, you know, twenty weeks.
Speaker 2: You just don't know in this process. So I felt
Speaker 2: like I was getting irrationally anxious. So I kept trying
Speaker 2: to talk myself off, talk myself off the ledge and
Speaker 2: be like, there's no reason to believe this would happen.
Speaker 2: I'd set up an email address for Karina, and I'd
Speaker 2: been sending her emails along the way about the pregnancy,
Speaker 2: about Haley. It's like, hey, you know, hey little Karina,
Speaker 2: it's mom. You know, here's an update. And I remember
Speaker 2: I wrote to her the night before. I said, Hey,
Speaker 2: tomorrow is a really big milestone for us, because we
Speaker 2: get through it. Like it's one day more, you know,
Speaker 2: that next day it's one day more than the last pregnancy,
Speaker 2: and I just feel like I'll feel some relief. It's
Speaker 2: Tuesday morning. I wake up and I have relief because
Speaker 2: I look at my phone, and I'm like, there's no
Speaker 2: message from her saying that she bled overnight. And then
Speaker 2: she texts us saying, you know, I was a little
Speaker 2: scared this morning because I woke up not feeling morning sickness.
Speaker 2: She had had other days like that, so it wasn't
Speaker 2: immediately alarming. And then at ten thirty am, I get
Speaker 2: a message from her and she says, I just had
Speaker 2: a gush of blood and my heart sank.
Speaker 1: I was like, you have got to be kidding me.
Speaker 2: How is this happening again, like on exactly the same
Speaker 2: day as last time, Like it just it didn't make
Speaker 2: any sense, And so we called the doctor and they
Speaker 2: they're like, Okay, it could be a miscarriage. However, it
Speaker 2: could be another thing. It could be a hematoma. Right,
Speaker 2: It could be that there is some blood pooling in
Speaker 2: that area and it just needs to get out. Why
Speaker 2: don't we have her goat get an ultrasound? And so
Speaker 2: even though she's like actively bleeding, she goes to get
Speaker 2: this ultrasound and we're expecting the worst. I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: an optimist, so of course, until you tell me like, no,
Speaker 2: there's nothing there, I'm always going to hope. I'm always
Speaker 2: going to hold on to that shred. I think Jimmy
Speaker 2: at this point had just given up. He was like, Maya,
Speaker 2: all hope is lost. And this incredibly kind doctor is
Speaker 2: on the call and he's doing the ultrasound. He's like,
Speaker 2: there's your baby, and her heart beat's perfect, it's one
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty. She's measuring exactly as she should at
Speaker 2: six weeks, and oh my god, there is that hematoma,
Speaker 2: Like there is this blood pool, and so that does
Speaker 2: explain the bleeding. Like, you guys are good. And I
Speaker 2: was just sobbing, like the relief that I felt, Oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, there's an explanation and our baby is looking
Speaker 2: great and we're going to have this child. And then
Speaker 2: he goes over the area again and he goes, oh
Speaker 2: my god, there's another one. You guys are having twins,
Speaker 2: and that one's also perfect. That one has a beautiful
Speaker 2: heartbeat and is measuring great. You guys are having twins.
Speaker 2: And Hailey was so happy, and I remember in that
Speaker 2: moment I said to her, I said, look, I'm grateful
Speaker 2: for one or two. I don't I didn't need to.
Speaker 2: I just just wanted one, you know. But what matters
Speaker 2: to me most is that it's with you. And so
Speaker 2: what I just kept saying, I was like, I wanted
Speaker 2: this to be with Haley. I wanted this to be
Speaker 2: with Haley, and it's with you, and we get to
Speaker 2: do this journey with you. And Jimmy and I take
Speaker 2: a walk at this point of the day. We're like,
Speaker 2: let's just get some fresh air. And now we're planning
Speaker 2: our life with twins. We're thinking to ourselves, if you
Speaker 2: need to buy a home, there should be like many bedrooms,
Speaker 2: and how are we gonna care for twins? And we
Speaker 2: start thinking about a second. You know, Haley had said,
Speaker 2: I guess it's time to start thinking of another name.
Speaker 2: So we're like, what goes well with Karina, you know,
Speaker 2: And we just start brainstorming and we have this walk
Speaker 2: and it's just like we're floating on air, you know it.
Speaker 2: We can't wait to tell the people who we've told
Speaker 2: that she's miscarried to that it's actually the opposite. And
Speaker 2: you're not even just getting one, We're getting two. So
Speaker 2: I go back home and I text Haley and I say,
Speaker 2: you know, I leaded the what to expect act on
Speaker 2: my phone this morning when I got the news about
Speaker 2: the blood because I didn't want to get my hopes
Speaker 2: up and I just wanted it. I wanted to remove
Speaker 2: all evidence of that of my phone and I said
Speaker 2: maybe I should reinstall it. And her response was, guys,
Speaker 2: the thing that I've been bleeding out recently, like, it's
Speaker 2: not it's not blood. And she takes a picture of
Speaker 2: it and we send it to our doctor and our
Speaker 2: doctor calls us. We're like, could this be anything? Could
Speaker 2: this be?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: What is this?
Speaker 2: You know Jimmy studied biology in college. He's like, my
Speaker 2: MAYI that's his nickname for me. He's like, this is
Speaker 2: not a blood clot. I'm so sorry. And when the
Speaker 2: doctor looked at it, I just remember I heard I
Speaker 2: heard the sound in her voice. She's like, you know
Speaker 2: you could hear it, Like I knew the answer before
Speaker 2: she said it. She goes, I'm just so sorry, guys.
Speaker 2: I can't believe this has happened. And it's hard to
Speaker 2: describe what that feels like. I wanted to throw up.
Speaker 2: I felt totally nauseated and disoriented. I felt so sad
Speaker 2: that Haley was suffering. I felt so sad she was
Speaker 2: going through this trauma again. And it was confirmed by
Speaker 2: a ultrasound that there was nothing there anymore. The next morning,
Speaker 2: and the hardest part of this process was learning that
Speaker 2: our embryos were actually great, and Haley was great, but
Speaker 2: very likely there's some sort of incompatibility between our biologies.
Speaker 2: The doctor's best guest right now is that her immune
Speaker 2: system sees our embryos as foreign in some way. I
Speaker 2: asked my doctor, I said, have you ever seen this before?
Speaker 2: And she said no, And I think there's a bizarre
Speaker 2: immune response happening here. And what that meant is we
Speaker 2: can't work with her anymore. She said to me this morning,
Speaker 2: She goes, it is so cruel that a relationship that
Speaker 2: is so compatible is biologically incompatible, and you just can't
Speaker 2: fight biology.
Speaker 1: What are you going to do?
Speaker 2: You know, the doctors are like, this would probably happen again,
Speaker 2: and we can't put you guys through that. You can't
Speaker 2: put yourselves through that. You just have to find another surrogate.
Speaker 2: And what's again I'm astonishing to us, is like Haley
Speaker 2: was willing to try again with us and again and again,
Speaker 2: because that's the kind of person she is. And I'm
Speaker 2: just overwhelmed still that someone would go through this, go
Speaker 2: through this pain, because she's so eager to make us happy.
Speaker 2: That's an incredible gift. I've never met anybody like her
Speaker 2: in my life. I probably never will.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so i'm hearing you tell this story, I just
Speaker 3: want to acknowledge that it is incredibly harrowing and what
Speaker 3: you've gone through over the last few days is horrible,
Speaker 3: and yeah, I am so sorry.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 3: You know. I'm also struck by the fact that you
Speaker 3: have gone through this experience twice now, and that the
Speaker 3: first time that Haley miscarried was back in March of
Speaker 3: twenty twenty when COVID was beginning for all of us,
Speaker 3: and I just remember that the world was sort of
Speaker 3: changing overnight for many of us, and then on top
Speaker 3: of that change, you had this other incredible loss, And
Speaker 3: I'm curious, what was that experience? Like?
Speaker 2: It was really hard, it's very lonely, it's very iclating.
Speaker 2: You feel like people can intellectualize it, but also maybe
Speaker 2: not just fully understand the emotions behind it, because I
Speaker 2: didn't fully understand the emotions behind it until I went
Speaker 2: through it myself. I just didn't. It built my empathy
Speaker 2: so much, and the way that I dealt with it,
Speaker 2: Tyler was I was like, I have to make something
Speaker 2: good out of this, and then it's funny to think back,
Speaker 2: I've just forgotten about this until you mentioned it. Like
Speaker 2: I thought of this podcast idea called a Slight Change
Speaker 2: of Plans, and it was a grief project for me.
Speaker 1: It was my way of.
Speaker 2: Trying to find meaning and answers in a situation that
Speaker 2: I couldn't find meaning and answers in. And I didn't
Speaker 2: know how to navigate the change that was happening in
Speaker 2: my life. I didn't know how to navigate miscarriage. I
Speaker 2: didn't know how to navigate COVID. I didn't know how
Speaker 2: to navigate all the loss that was happening in the world.
Speaker 2: I didn't know how to navigate the racial injustice. I
Speaker 2: felt completely overwhelmed, and I just thought to myself, I
Speaker 2: know that I'm not alone in not knowing how to
Speaker 2: navigate this moment. I know that there is a treasure
Speaker 2: trove of wisdom out there on how to navigate change,
Speaker 2: especially unwanted, unexpected change, and it's just a matter of
Speaker 2: finding those stories and learning from them. And that's what
Speaker 2: led me to build the show. It came out of
Speaker 2: a personal desire to understand how it is that people
Speaker 2: navigate change and to learn from them, because you know,
Speaker 2: I'm a scientist, write a cognitive scientist. I study how
Speaker 2: the mind works, I study change. I know the science,
Speaker 2: but the science was falling short for me, and I
Speaker 2: felt like I needed to hear people's stories and I
Speaker 2: needed to emotionally connect with people.
Speaker 3: It strikes me as I think I knew that, but
Speaker 3: I'm just hearing it for the first time, that this
Speaker 3: was your grief process, Right, I'm saying that correctly, Like
Speaker 3: this was how in a way how you grieved, Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't, and I don't think I really made
Speaker 2: the connection fully until this moment where everyone grieves differently,
Speaker 2: you know, like I was. I was talking to Michael
Speaker 2: Lewis after the tragic passing of his daughter, and he said, Maya,
Speaker 2: no one knows shit about grief. Everyone's telling me how
Speaker 2: to feel, everyone's telling me what book to read, Everyone's
Speaker 2: telling me to do this and see this therapist and
Speaker 2: talk about No. I need to create the Michael Lewis
Speaker 2: plan how I grieve. And he's so freaking right about that,
Speaker 2: Like there is no one size fits all recipe for
Speaker 2: how to grieve. There's no one size fits all recipe
Speaker 2: for how to change, how to deal with change. And
Speaker 2: that's a sobering realization. When you're in the throes of grief,
Speaker 2: you just want answers, you want a solution set, and
Speaker 2: you can't get it, and so what you do instead
Speaker 2: is realize, well, I have to find I have to
Speaker 2: create a Maya plan, and I do my best when
Speaker 2: I'm active, and I throw myself into passion projects when
Speaker 2: I'm in a bad place.
Speaker 1: Like that is.
Speaker 2: Everyone has their own recipe, but for me, that is
Speaker 2: how I heal to process out loud, to be open
Speaker 2: with people, to throw myselves into creative projects that can
Speaker 2: hopefully help people and make people feel stronger.
Speaker 3: So, Maya, we've been talking for the last couple of days,
Speaker 3: and it might be too soon to answer this question,
Speaker 3: but I'm curious to know what you've learned about yourself
Speaker 3: from all of this.
Speaker 2: I learned that I'm really bad at acceptance. I always
Speaker 2: want to justify things. I always want to resist the
Speaker 2: randomness in our world that I know is just randomness.
Speaker 1: You know I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't have religious or spiritual beliefs that help guide
Speaker 2: me through these situations. I do just believe in people
Speaker 2: having bad fortunes in life, you know. But I'm b
Speaker 2: at acceptance, which means I tap into a very natural
Speaker 2: part of my psychology, which is to tell stories, to
Speaker 2: try to make sense of this, to try to find
Speaker 2: something find something good that can emerge from this experience.
Speaker 2: It's one of the reasons i'm talking with you today
Speaker 2: because I need something good to come from this. And
Speaker 2: if one listener hears this and feels that they're not alone,
Speaker 2: then that is a silver lining. I want everyone to
Speaker 2: know that my husband and I went through this, because
Speaker 2: the more we talk about it, the more we can
Speaker 2: support one another. I think what I learned is you
Speaker 2: don't as a person. You don't even grew the same
Speaker 2: way every time I'm grieving. I don't know yet all
Speaker 2: the ways, but I feel like I'm grieving the loss
Speaker 2: of these twins differently than I did the loss we
Speaker 2: had last year. It feels very different, and in some ways,
Speaker 2: in some ways it feels strangely easier because I feel
Speaker 2: stronger because I know that I know that I've done
Speaker 2: this before and I did make it out the other end,
Speaker 2: And maybe that's the hope I can give to listeners
Speaker 2: like these experiences can make you stronger. You can learn
Speaker 2: how to you can learn what helps you build resilience
Speaker 2: in your life along the way, and you can try
Speaker 2: to do that.
Speaker 3: What would you say to Haley in this moment.
Speaker 2: That I love her and life works in really interesting ways.
Speaker 2: You don't know the kinds of people that you'll meet
Speaker 2: and how they'll touch you. So it's a gift. It's
Speaker 2: a gift that we got to know her. That's why
Speaker 2: I that's why the regret part of my brain has
Speaker 2: just kind of turned off, because I'm like, wait, if
Speaker 2: we hadn't gone through this experience, we wouldn't have met
Speaker 2: this wonderful human being. And like that counts too in life, right,
Speaker 2: we should be putting weight on that too, Humans who
Speaker 2: come into our lives and enrich our lives. Like life
Speaker 2: is not just about achieving a series of outcomes, it's
Speaker 2: also letting in and creating space for unexpected, beautiful gifts.
Speaker 2: And I think that's how we feel with her.
Speaker 3: I have such a deep appreciation for you sharing this
Speaker 3: story today, and I think that in you being so
Speaker 3: open it is really going to help a lot of people.
Speaker 3: And I just want to give you a chances is
Speaker 3: there anything else that you'd like to share?
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess one thing i'd share is I
Speaker 2: feel closed off right now about the idea of a
Speaker 2: new surrogate entering our lives. So fascinating how these bonds formed,
Speaker 2: but it almost feels like a betrayal, like how could
Speaker 2: I do this to Haley? Like could how could we
Speaker 2: have somebody else? And obviously she was saying like, you
Speaker 2: guys deserve a child so much, and you know she
Speaker 2: would only ever be so supportive of our next steps.
Speaker 2: But instinctively, I'm like, oh, I don't want to get
Speaker 2: close to them. I don't want to have my heart
Speaker 2: broken again. I want distance, Like I can feel my
Speaker 2: protective defense mechanisms kind.
Speaker 1: Of in high alert. And I talked to.
Speaker 2: Our agency, our surrogacy agency folks, and they've been amazing,
Speaker 2: And none of them said to me, you know, Maya,
Speaker 2: your future surrogate, deserves your most loving self. That had
Speaker 2: an impact on me. She does deserve it, and it
Speaker 2: wouldn't be right to shield her from the love and
Speaker 2: gratitude that I feel. So that means that I just
Speaker 2: need to put an effort in hard work to get
Speaker 2: to a point where I can open myself up again
Speaker 2: before embarking on this journey again, because she deserves to
Speaker 2: have all of Jimmy and me and all of our
Speaker 2: openness and all of our love.
Speaker 4: And so.
Speaker 2: I guess as I look at next steps, that's my
Speaker 2: first next step, before any of the logistics. It is
Speaker 2: like figuring out how to feel hopeful and open again.
Speaker 2: Join me next week. When I talk to Oscar nominated
Speaker 2: actor riz Achmed, we talk about how finally playing a
Speaker 2: role based on his own life has changed his understanding
Speaker 2: of himself.
Speaker 4: He's the one role I never get to play with
Speaker 4: someone like myself. I realized that up until this point
Speaker 4: as an actor, I'd become adept to molding masks and
Speaker 4: wearing them for other people and representing other people, and
Speaker 4: realized that actually the next stage of growth is about
Speaker 4: not molding and wearing masks, but taking them off.
Speaker 2: A Slight Change of Plans is creative, written and executive
Speaker 2: produced by me Maya Schunker. The best part of this
Speaker 2: show is getting to collaborate with my formidable Slight Change family.
Speaker 2: This includes Tyler Green, our senior producer, whose unrivaled empathy
Speaker 2: and kindness made this episode possible. Jen Guera our senior
Speaker 2: editor who brings so much heart and conscientiousness to her
Speaker 2: work on the show. Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rosstek,
Speaker 2: our associate producer, and Neia LaBelle, our executive producer. Louis
Speaker 2: Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped
Speaker 2: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a
Speaker 2: production of Pushkin Industry, so big thanks to everyone there.
Speaker 2: I'd like to extend my heartfelt thanks to Haley, my
Speaker 2: dear friend, for her openness and having me share our
Speaker 2: story with all of you, our fertility clinic for their
Speaker 2: compassion and support during our experience, and to Michael Lewis
Speaker 2: for his friendship and advice, and of course a very
Speaker 2: special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight
Speaker 2: Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker, and
Speaker 2: please remember to subscribe, share and rate the show to
Speaker 2: help get the word out.
Speaker 1: See you next week.
Speaker 2: So spoiler alert, Jimmy and I are not chill people
Speaker 2: about this sort of thing, right, the health of our
Speaker 2: future baby. Like Haley was telling us that she came
Speaker 2: home on a Saturday, and unbeknownst to her, her husband
Speaker 2: had bought a bunny Oscar. Okay, Now, typically this would
Speaker 2: just be like, you know, Haley's my friend. I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, that's so much fun. You guys have
Speaker 2: a bunny, send me pictures? You know, how did you
Speaker 2: decide on the name Oscar? Right, that's a normal conversation.
Speaker 2: And instantly Jimmy and I are like, is this a
Speaker 2: pregnancy hazard?
Speaker 1: We go down? We go down a rabbit hole, no fun.
Speaker 2: Of doing research on like PubMed and like, are there
Speaker 2: any viruses that rabbits carry that can potentially be transmitted
Speaker 2: to humans? And I just remember there was this moment
Speaker 2: where Jimmy turned over to me and moves his laptop
Speaker 2: so I can see what he's looking at. And it's
Speaker 2: like he's at like Rabbit Welfare dot co dot UK
Speaker 2: looking at health facts and he looked at me and
Speaker 2: he's like, I never thought it would come to this.