1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:15,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,436 --> 00:00:23,876 Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, maya here. I hope you're settling into the 3 00:00:23,996 --> 00:00:29,396 Speaker 2: change of seasons. October is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month, 4 00:00:29,836 --> 00:00:32,556 Speaker 2: and it has me reflecting on an experience that my 5 00:00:32,636 --> 00:00:36,876 Speaker 2: husband and I, along with our gestational surrogate Hailey, navigated 6 00:00:36,916 --> 00:00:40,156 Speaker 2: a few years ago. Many of you know about my 7 00:00:40,316 --> 00:00:42,676 Speaker 2: slight change of plans when I hurt my hand and 8 00:00:42,716 --> 00:00:45,516 Speaker 2: had to give up my dream of becoming a concert violinist. 9 00:00:46,156 --> 00:00:49,476 Speaker 2: This is another important part of my story, and I 10 00:00:49,556 --> 00:00:52,836 Speaker 2: hope that sharing my reflections might bring some comfort if 11 00:00:52,876 --> 00:00:56,636 Speaker 2: you've experienced loss of any kind. I appreciate your listening. 12 00:01:08,796 --> 00:01:11,676 Speaker 2: Dad jokes that when I was like a five year 13 00:01:11,716 --> 00:01:14,676 Speaker 2: old or whatnot, he'd come down to the basement and 14 00:01:14,716 --> 00:01:16,556 Speaker 2: I'd be with my little kitchen set. I'd be on 15 00:01:16,596 --> 00:01:22,676 Speaker 2: this pretend phone having conversations with my fictitious neighbors about 16 00:01:22,716 --> 00:01:26,556 Speaker 2: my rebellious children. I'd be like, Oh, you wouldn't believe it, Karen, 17 00:01:27,116 --> 00:01:30,156 Speaker 2: Little Bobby is driving me crazy. First of all, it 18 00:01:30,156 --> 00:01:34,036 Speaker 2: says a lot about my assimilation that my child's name 19 00:01:34,036 --> 00:01:37,076 Speaker 2: was Bobby, despite the fact I'm Indian and Rob you 20 00:01:37,196 --> 00:01:40,156 Speaker 2: might have been more appropriate. But I don't think there's 21 00:01:40,276 --> 00:01:45,196 Speaker 2: ever been anything more that mattered to me than eventually 22 00:01:45,276 --> 00:01:48,676 Speaker 2: becoming a parent. I mean, it's just it's always been 23 00:01:48,676 --> 00:01:53,836 Speaker 2: a guiding force. That's me, Maya Shunker. As you can 24 00:01:53,876 --> 00:01:57,876 Speaker 2: probably tell, we're mixing things up on today's episode. Instead 25 00:01:57,876 --> 00:02:01,396 Speaker 2: of coming to you as the host, Maya Shunker, cognitive scientist, 26 00:02:02,036 --> 00:02:06,316 Speaker 2: I'm coming to you as just me Maya. Recently, I 27 00:02:06,396 --> 00:02:08,916 Speaker 2: was on my way to finally becoming a mom, which 28 00:02:08,916 --> 00:02:12,036 Speaker 2: had in years in the making. When my husband Jimmy, 29 00:02:12,076 --> 00:02:14,876 Speaker 2: and I learned I can't healthily carry a baby. We 30 00:02:14,996 --> 00:02:19,996 Speaker 2: explored gestational surrogacy, having someone else carry our baby. This 31 00:02:20,076 --> 00:02:23,796 Speaker 2: has involved fertility treatments, freezing our embryos, and finding a 32 00:02:23,836 --> 00:02:30,076 Speaker 2: surrogate match. Things were finally coming together these past few 33 00:02:30,116 --> 00:02:33,796 Speaker 2: months until we were thrown our own change of plans. 34 00:02:36,436 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 2: I never intended to share such a deeply personal story, 35 00:02:40,236 --> 00:02:42,476 Speaker 2: but then I realized that's kind of what this show 36 00:02:42,556 --> 00:02:45,756 Speaker 2: is all about. My guests come here to process their 37 00:02:45,796 --> 00:02:49,516 Speaker 2: experiences with change out loud, and I realized I wanted 38 00:02:49,516 --> 00:02:52,356 Speaker 2: to do the same. So two days after I got 39 00:02:52,396 --> 00:02:56,516 Speaker 2: some terrible news, I asked my producer and friend Tyler Green, 40 00:02:57,036 --> 00:03:04,396 Speaker 2: to turn on the mics and interview me. This is 41 00:03:04,436 --> 00:03:07,236 Speaker 2: a slight change of plants, a show about who we 42 00:03:07,276 --> 00:03:09,916 Speaker 2: are and who we become in the face of a 43 00:03:09,956 --> 00:03:23,996 Speaker 2: big change. We started our conversation by talking about Jimmy 44 00:03:24,036 --> 00:03:27,276 Speaker 2: and me and our search for a surrogate match when 45 00:03:27,276 --> 00:03:30,556 Speaker 2: we moved out to California. That's really when our journey began. 46 00:03:30,676 --> 00:03:35,396 Speaker 2: And it's very scary, obviously, right. I mean, to trust 47 00:03:35,476 --> 00:03:39,356 Speaker 2: someone so much that you're willing to put your child's 48 00:03:39,396 --> 00:03:43,356 Speaker 2: development and well being in their hands is nothing small, 49 00:03:43,596 --> 00:03:49,916 Speaker 2: you know, So, I mean, the surrogacy matching process is 50 00:03:51,596 --> 00:03:55,236 Speaker 2: so interesting. It feels like you're dating again, Like you're 51 00:03:55,276 --> 00:04:00,196 Speaker 2: looking at all these profiles of women who can potentially 52 00:04:00,196 --> 00:04:04,436 Speaker 2: carry your baby. And unlike a traditional dating profile, which 53 00:04:04,476 --> 00:04:07,756 Speaker 2: is like, you know, I love playing soccer and making dinners, 54 00:04:07,796 --> 00:04:13,876 Speaker 2: they're like, you know, here's my dynocological history, and here's 55 00:04:14,076 --> 00:04:16,236 Speaker 2: the nature of my three berths that I had with. 56 00:04:16,156 --> 00:04:16,996 Speaker 1: My own children. 57 00:04:17,436 --> 00:04:21,916 Speaker 2: It feels totally nuts to be learning some intimate details 58 00:04:21,956 --> 00:04:25,876 Speaker 2: about a person's medical history and to be judging compatibility 59 00:04:25,996 --> 00:04:30,236 Speaker 2: based on based on these factors. It's like, hey, how's 60 00:04:30,276 --> 00:04:33,516 Speaker 2: your uterine lining? Does it respond well to fertility treatments? 61 00:04:33,636 --> 00:04:33,836 Speaker 2: You know? 62 00:04:33,916 --> 00:04:35,516 Speaker 1: Like, that's nuts. 63 00:04:35,596 --> 00:04:37,476 Speaker 2: Usually, as I go about the world, I'm focusing on 64 00:04:37,476 --> 00:04:40,676 Speaker 2: people's personalities and whether I like them and whether they 65 00:04:40,836 --> 00:04:43,316 Speaker 2: like me. And suddenly you're in this world where all 66 00:04:43,316 --> 00:04:45,956 Speaker 2: these bizarre metrics matter more than anything else, which is 67 00:04:45,996 --> 00:04:48,676 Speaker 2: this person's pregnancy history and their ability to conceive. 68 00:04:49,036 --> 00:04:51,276 Speaker 3: You're like, it's not match dot com anymore, but it 69 00:04:51,316 --> 00:04:52,356 Speaker 3: looks almost the same. 70 00:04:52,636 --> 00:04:53,756 Speaker 1: There's all these things exactly. 71 00:04:54,156 --> 00:04:57,476 Speaker 3: But wow, didn't know I needed to know that exactly. 72 00:04:58,316 --> 00:05:02,436 Speaker 2: So we're sifting through all these profiles and we come 73 00:05:02,476 --> 00:05:12,116 Speaker 2: across one. Her name's Haley, sorry, okay, and she just 74 00:05:12,156 --> 00:05:14,076 Speaker 2: looks perfect. 75 00:05:14,796 --> 00:05:16,716 Speaker 1: She looks perfect. 76 00:05:18,956 --> 00:05:22,356 Speaker 2: She's smiling in her photo with Minnie Mouse ears on 77 00:05:22,516 --> 00:05:25,236 Speaker 2: her head. It's a picture with her and her daughter 78 00:05:25,596 --> 00:05:32,356 Speaker 2: in like Disney World. I read her profile. She's got 79 00:05:32,356 --> 00:05:35,876 Speaker 2: three beautiful children of her own. She's a stay at 80 00:05:35,876 --> 00:05:40,756 Speaker 2: home mom. She is incredibly artistic and creative and builds 81 00:05:40,796 --> 00:05:45,036 Speaker 2: amazing things in her home. And she's also a social activist. 82 00:05:45,356 --> 00:05:47,876 Speaker 2: And I still remember when I looked at her profile. 83 00:05:47,916 --> 00:05:49,996 Speaker 2: You know, usually you write a paragraph about yourself at 84 00:05:50,036 --> 00:05:52,476 Speaker 2: the end, to just say you know why you're interested 85 00:05:52,516 --> 00:05:55,316 Speaker 2: in being a surrogate and what draws you to it, 86 00:05:55,396 --> 00:05:58,476 Speaker 2: and you know, this is an opportunity for women to 87 00:05:58,516 --> 00:06:01,036 Speaker 2: say why they think they'd be a great surrogate for you. 88 00:06:01,116 --> 00:06:05,556 Speaker 2: And she said, I feel so self conscious talking positively 89 00:06:05,596 --> 00:06:09,796 Speaker 2: about myself. I've asked my sister instead to share what 90 00:06:09,876 --> 00:06:12,796 Speaker 2: why she thinks, you know, I might make a great surrogate. 91 00:06:12,956 --> 00:06:17,796 Speaker 2: And it was such a beautiful description of Haley, you know, 92 00:06:18,796 --> 00:06:22,836 Speaker 2: generous in such a deep way, so loving, so caring, 93 00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:26,276 Speaker 2: and so loyal. And you know, at the time, I 94 00:06:26,276 --> 00:06:31,356 Speaker 2: didn't know how much that loyalty trait would matter, but 95 00:06:31,436 --> 00:06:33,316 Speaker 2: it did, and so I still remember it was the 96 00:06:33,356 --> 00:06:35,356 Speaker 2: middle of my work day and I go into a 97 00:06:35,396 --> 00:06:38,436 Speaker 2: conference room and we meet Haley over video, and it 98 00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:41,436 Speaker 2: was it was like love at first sight, you know, 99 00:06:41,596 --> 00:06:44,796 Speaker 2: that's the best way to describe it. I think we 100 00:06:44,836 --> 00:06:46,796 Speaker 2: all felt so bonded to each other. 101 00:06:48,876 --> 00:06:49,796 Speaker 1: I'd always seen it as. 102 00:06:49,756 --> 00:06:52,476 Speaker 2: Such a liability, like why can't I carry this baby? 103 00:06:52,516 --> 00:06:55,436 Speaker 2: Why can't I carry this baby? And when I met 104 00:06:55,436 --> 00:07:01,836 Speaker 2: Haley for the first time ever, I thought, It's okay. 105 00:07:02,036 --> 00:07:05,876 Speaker 2: Knowing her and having it be her will make this 106 00:07:06,756 --> 00:07:10,316 Speaker 2: We'll make this just as good, even better, because I 107 00:07:10,316 --> 00:07:12,196 Speaker 2: had the opportunity to get to know someone like her 108 00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:15,556 Speaker 2: and I had never felt that way before. You know, 109 00:07:15,716 --> 00:07:18,116 Speaker 2: usually after a video call like that, you give both 110 00:07:18,156 --> 00:07:20,996 Speaker 2: sides some time to figure out whether they think it's right. 111 00:07:21,516 --> 00:07:23,356 Speaker 1: I think we just wrote to each other within like a. 112 00:07:23,316 --> 00:07:25,396 Speaker 2: Minute, like we're in, the other sides like we're in, 113 00:07:25,476 --> 00:07:27,996 Speaker 2: and so we might have been the fastest match that 114 00:07:28,036 --> 00:07:28,716 Speaker 2: ever happened. 115 00:07:29,316 --> 00:07:33,836 Speaker 3: I love that. So what happens next? 116 00:07:34,876 --> 00:07:38,476 Speaker 2: We plan to do our embryo transfer in February of 117 00:07:38,836 --> 00:07:44,436 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, so she comes out here. And there's also 118 00:07:44,596 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 2: there's also this like grading system with embryos. They look 119 00:07:48,196 --> 00:07:50,476 Speaker 2: at the embryos under a microscope, and so it's like, oh, 120 00:07:50,516 --> 00:07:52,396 Speaker 2: this one's a six double A and this one's a 121 00:07:52,396 --> 00:07:56,036 Speaker 2: two DD, And you're like, is this predictive of anything? 122 00:07:56,196 --> 00:07:58,556 Speaker 2: Like I'm walking down the street being like, is that 123 00:07:58,596 --> 00:08:01,676 Speaker 2: person a six double A? Like, what's Obama? 124 00:08:02,556 --> 00:08:05,396 Speaker 3: Six? Triple A? For sure? Probably a seven? Just a seven? 125 00:08:05,996 --> 00:08:09,036 Speaker 2: What's Beyonce? I need to know what Beyonce is? Like 126 00:08:09,436 --> 00:08:12,556 Speaker 2: if Beyonce was a like three CB or like a 127 00:08:12,636 --> 00:08:15,596 Speaker 2: two d D, that gives hope to embryos everywhere. Okay, 128 00:08:16,476 --> 00:08:19,676 Speaker 2: So anyway, we were we chose our best looking embryo 129 00:08:19,716 --> 00:08:22,116 Speaker 2: and they were all genetically tested, so we had you know, 130 00:08:22,116 --> 00:08:23,836 Speaker 2: we knew that they were chromosomally normal. 131 00:08:24,436 --> 00:08:25,996 Speaker 1: So we choose choose our best one. 132 00:08:25,996 --> 00:08:30,556 Speaker 2: And I remember sitting in the ultrasound room that day 133 00:08:30,596 --> 00:08:35,636 Speaker 2: because you know, Kaylee was She's so inclusive throughout the process. 134 00:08:35,716 --> 00:08:37,476 Speaker 2: You know, I was like, do you prefer we're out 135 00:08:37,476 --> 00:08:38,916 Speaker 2: of the room in the room, like at the end 136 00:08:38,956 --> 00:08:41,436 Speaker 2: of the day, this is her body, and she said, 137 00:08:41,436 --> 00:08:43,396 Speaker 2: I can't imagine not having you guys in the room. 138 00:08:44,036 --> 00:08:48,076 Speaker 1: So we're in the room. The lights go off and 139 00:08:48,156 --> 00:08:48,836 Speaker 1: I see. 140 00:08:48,636 --> 00:08:54,076 Speaker 2: Them take our little girl embryo and implant her, and 141 00:08:54,156 --> 00:08:59,196 Speaker 2: I I was overwhelmed by emotion and like, I didn't 142 00:08:59,196 --> 00:09:01,356 Speaker 2: even I don't think of myself as that kind of person, 143 00:09:01,556 --> 00:09:05,476 Speaker 2: like Jimmy's the one who cries at Disney movies, up 144 00:09:05,556 --> 00:09:08,596 Speaker 2: Mulan the Lion King. Like I might get a little, 145 00:09:08,756 --> 00:09:11,636 Speaker 2: you know, heary eyed. But I was so surprised, and 146 00:09:11,676 --> 00:09:15,076 Speaker 2: I think it was we can cry for lots of reasons, 147 00:09:15,076 --> 00:09:17,796 Speaker 2: but I think it was it was a combination of 148 00:09:17,836 --> 00:09:21,796 Speaker 2: so many factors. I think one was profound relief that 149 00:09:21,916 --> 00:09:24,476 Speaker 2: this moment was finally happening. You know, it had been 150 00:09:25,476 --> 00:09:28,876 Speaker 2: years in the making, to just see it happening finally 151 00:09:28,956 --> 00:09:32,076 Speaker 2: with like a real human Haley sitting there like that 152 00:09:32,196 --> 00:09:36,316 Speaker 2: was overwhelming for me. And then I also just visualized her. 153 00:09:36,356 --> 00:09:38,396 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, well, she have thick, curly hair 154 00:09:38,516 --> 00:09:40,516 Speaker 2: like me. You know, you just have these images. I 155 00:09:40,556 --> 00:09:42,276 Speaker 2: just imagine her with like you know, I kind of 156 00:09:42,316 --> 00:09:45,276 Speaker 2: had just a bunch of curls shooting off my head 157 00:09:45,316 --> 00:09:47,356 Speaker 2: when I was a kid, and they had There was 158 00:09:47,436 --> 00:09:50,036 Speaker 2: no order, it was just randomness everywhere. I was like, 159 00:09:50,076 --> 00:09:53,196 Speaker 2: I wonder, she'll have my you know, Shirley Temple spiral curls, 160 00:09:54,916 --> 00:09:56,956 Speaker 2: but with like an ethnic twist because they're you know, 161 00:09:57,156 --> 00:09:58,396 Speaker 2: kind of it's I have textured hair. 162 00:09:58,436 --> 00:09:59,916 Speaker 3: I have to see those pictures. By the way, I'm 163 00:09:59,916 --> 00:10:00,556 Speaker 3: not letting that go. 164 00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:04,996 Speaker 2: I will send them to you and so. And I 165 00:10:05,036 --> 00:10:09,516 Speaker 2: just remember holding Jimmy's hands so tightly and it was 166 00:10:09,556 --> 00:10:12,076 Speaker 2: a beautiful moment. And you know, we left and obviously 167 00:10:12,076 --> 00:10:15,716 Speaker 2: we have nerves and whatnot. And you know the way 168 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:18,356 Speaker 2: that it works, you're supposed to wait until ten days 169 00:10:18,396 --> 00:10:21,196 Speaker 2: after to do the formal blood work. That Haley wasn't 170 00:10:21,196 --> 00:10:23,796 Speaker 2: going to wait, so she was going to the store 171 00:10:24,156 --> 00:10:27,716 Speaker 2: buying pregnancy tests. She proceeds to send us images of 172 00:10:27,796 --> 00:10:30,316 Speaker 2: all the pregnancy tests she's been taking over the preceding 173 00:10:30,396 --> 00:10:33,956 Speaker 2: days of the line darkening and darkening and darkening, and 174 00:10:34,716 --> 00:10:38,196 Speaker 2: it's very positive. And she gets her blood test done 175 00:10:38,356 --> 00:10:40,476 Speaker 2: and we're having a. 176 00:10:40,476 --> 00:10:41,556 Speaker 1: Baby girl, you know. 177 00:10:42,756 --> 00:10:46,436 Speaker 2: And so we're over the moon and we sign in 178 00:10:47,356 --> 00:10:50,996 Speaker 2: buy a video to that first ulture sound and we 179 00:10:51,036 --> 00:10:54,356 Speaker 2: see her little heart beating and in the same way 180 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:56,956 Speaker 2: that Haley was perfect to us, that little embryo seemed 181 00:10:57,356 --> 00:11:00,796 Speaker 2: freaking perfect to us, too, so cute and like the 182 00:11:00,916 --> 00:11:04,996 Speaker 2: nurse said to Haley and us, your little gal's measuring perfectly. 183 00:11:05,076 --> 00:11:08,276 Speaker 2: Her heart's beating at a perfect rate. We're good and 184 00:11:08,356 --> 00:11:13,476 Speaker 2: so yeah, we felt so relieved, you know. And we 185 00:11:13,556 --> 00:11:17,876 Speaker 2: go home and it's so funny how these surrogacy pregnancies work. 186 00:11:18,756 --> 00:11:20,316 Speaker 2: You know, you want to be able to control things, 187 00:11:20,356 --> 00:11:22,916 Speaker 2: so you end up focusing on really small things like 188 00:11:23,396 --> 00:11:26,316 Speaker 2: is her a multi vitamin? Like the best version of 189 00:11:26,316 --> 00:11:29,516 Speaker 2: the multi vitamin, you know, Like how much folic acid 190 00:11:29,676 --> 00:11:31,596 Speaker 2: is she getting? You know, Like you just start asking 191 00:11:31,636 --> 00:11:35,396 Speaker 2: yourself all these really small things. It's a it's like 192 00:11:35,436 --> 00:11:37,956 Speaker 2: that Iceberg analogy. You just see the tips. So you 193 00:11:38,036 --> 00:11:39,396 Speaker 2: focus on all those things that you think are in 194 00:11:39,436 --> 00:11:41,916 Speaker 2: your control, but underneath the surface there's a ton of 195 00:11:41,916 --> 00:11:45,716 Speaker 2: stuff that's totally not present to you and is totally 196 00:11:45,716 --> 00:11:48,396 Speaker 2: out of your control. And it's about nine thirty at night, 197 00:11:48,556 --> 00:11:50,916 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, we get a text from 198 00:11:50,956 --> 00:11:55,476 Speaker 2: Haley and she says, are you guys up? And we 199 00:11:55,516 --> 00:11:58,516 Speaker 2: immediately know something's wrong, because, like, why is she texting 200 00:11:58,596 --> 00:12:01,916 Speaker 2: us at eleven thirty her time asking you for up? 201 00:12:02,916 --> 00:12:06,916 Speaker 2: We call her and she says, I just started bleeding 202 00:12:06,956 --> 00:12:10,756 Speaker 2: profusely and I think I maybe miscarrying and I'm not 203 00:12:10,796 --> 00:12:14,876 Speaker 2: sure what's happening. And my heart just sank and I 204 00:12:14,956 --> 00:12:17,316 Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, how is this possible. We 205 00:12:17,476 --> 00:12:20,596 Speaker 2: just saw the baby a few hours ago on the ultrasound, 206 00:12:20,596 --> 00:12:24,236 Speaker 2: you know, looking super healthy and happy, and Hayley was 207 00:12:24,236 --> 00:12:26,836 Speaker 2: healthy and happy. Like it just felt like a tragedy, 208 00:12:26,956 --> 00:12:29,396 Speaker 2: you know, And to go from the highest of highs 209 00:12:29,396 --> 00:12:32,196 Speaker 2: to the lowest of lows within a six hour period, 210 00:12:32,836 --> 00:12:35,796 Speaker 2: it just felt cruel. Sure enough, she goes in the 211 00:12:35,836 --> 00:12:41,236 Speaker 2: next morning for an ultrasound and there's nothing there, you know, 212 00:12:43,356 --> 00:12:45,036 Speaker 2: like there was something there the day before, but there's 213 00:12:45,076 --> 00:12:45,876 Speaker 2: nothing there today. 214 00:12:46,716 --> 00:12:47,676 Speaker 1: That's what they told us. 215 00:12:48,076 --> 00:12:52,956 Speaker 2: So she had miscarried and I will tell you the 216 00:12:53,036 --> 00:12:59,476 Speaker 2: hardest part about a surrogacy journey is that there's a 217 00:12:59,516 --> 00:13:03,796 Speaker 2: third person grieving along with you, and that's so excruciating. 218 00:13:03,836 --> 00:13:06,316 Speaker 2: It's like, Jimmy and I felt like we could manage 219 00:13:06,356 --> 00:13:11,556 Speaker 2: our own pain, but to see someone who was so 220 00:13:11,796 --> 00:13:16,156 Speaker 2: loving and only wanted to bring us joy suffering and 221 00:13:16,156 --> 00:13:18,356 Speaker 2: in pain and going through the physical trauma of a 222 00:13:18,396 --> 00:13:22,316 Speaker 2: miscarriage like bleeding throughout the entire night and horrible cramping 223 00:13:22,356 --> 00:13:25,876 Speaker 2: and feeling nauseated and dizzy and all the things. Like, 224 00:13:27,556 --> 00:13:30,396 Speaker 2: it's so horrible. It's so horrible to have a third person. 225 00:13:30,436 --> 00:13:34,676 Speaker 2: And you know, in our minds, we're thinking, because guilt 226 00:13:34,756 --> 00:13:37,556 Speaker 2: is an inevitable feeling on all on all sides, we're 227 00:13:37,556 --> 00:13:40,676 Speaker 2: thinking to ourselves like we're the reason Haley had our 228 00:13:40,676 --> 00:13:44,436 Speaker 2: first miscarriage, you know, That's what we're thinking. And Haley's 229 00:13:44,436 --> 00:13:46,796 Speaker 2: probably thinking why did this happen? 230 00:13:47,036 --> 00:13:47,716 Speaker 1: Like why why? 231 00:13:47,796 --> 00:13:50,076 Speaker 2: Why couldn't I make this work? And we're all having 232 00:13:50,116 --> 00:13:55,156 Speaker 2: these irrational thoughts that are not rooted in real things, 233 00:13:55,196 --> 00:13:57,116 Speaker 2: because you just want to find an explanation. 234 00:13:57,396 --> 00:13:58,236 Speaker 1: You know, you want to. 235 00:13:59,916 --> 00:14:02,236 Speaker 2: You want to blame someone, and the easiest person to 236 00:14:02,236 --> 00:14:04,836 Speaker 2: blame is yourself or like who else am I to 237 00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:06,756 Speaker 2: blame the universe? Like I don't you know, so I 238 00:14:06,796 --> 00:14:08,316 Speaker 2: just wanted to blame myself. 239 00:14:09,996 --> 00:14:10,596 Speaker 1: For everything. 240 00:14:11,316 --> 00:14:14,756 Speaker 2: And so so that happens, And the reason why it 241 00:14:14,796 --> 00:14:17,876 Speaker 2: was so painful, Tyler, is that it happened the day 242 00:14:17,956 --> 00:14:22,076 Speaker 2: before we all entered quarantine in California, so we couldn't 243 00:14:22,116 --> 00:14:25,916 Speaker 2: even grieve with our close friends and family, like the 244 00:14:26,076 --> 00:14:28,916 Speaker 2: very small circle of people we had told about this pregnancy. 245 00:14:30,436 --> 00:14:33,556 Speaker 3: And at this point, where you were you thinking, I'm 246 00:14:33,596 --> 00:14:36,196 Speaker 3: sure you had actually many thoughts at this point, like 247 00:14:36,796 --> 00:14:40,396 Speaker 3: should we work together with Haley again or somebody else? 248 00:14:41,396 --> 00:14:45,236 Speaker 2: It's a great question. We so desperately wanted to work 249 00:14:45,236 --> 00:14:48,636 Speaker 2: with Haley, and we were hoping doctors would tell us 250 00:14:48,636 --> 00:14:51,156 Speaker 2: that we could, that it would make sense to Unfortunately, 251 00:14:51,636 --> 00:14:54,636 Speaker 2: you know, they said, we have no reason to believe 252 00:14:55,276 --> 00:14:58,036 Speaker 2: anything really about this situation, like there's a lot of 253 00:14:58,076 --> 00:15:01,476 Speaker 2: miscarriages at six weeks, and we were really concerned at 254 00:15:01,476 --> 00:15:03,476 Speaker 2: the time, like, well, Haley be down for this. She 255 00:15:03,596 --> 00:15:07,596 Speaker 2: just went through a traumatic experience and one that she 256 00:15:07,636 --> 00:15:10,756 Speaker 2: did not you know, you can sign up for this, 257 00:15:10,836 --> 00:15:12,796 Speaker 2: but like do you really know what that's going to be? Like, 258 00:15:12,956 --> 00:15:16,156 Speaker 2: you know, and so one thing that really touched our 259 00:15:16,196 --> 00:15:18,716 Speaker 2: hearts is when she said, I'm in this with you 260 00:15:18,796 --> 00:15:23,916 Speaker 2: until the end. I will do this until you become parents. 261 00:15:24,756 --> 00:15:27,316 Speaker 3: And just to catch us up on the timeline, so 262 00:15:27,436 --> 00:15:31,516 Speaker 3: this is this is again March of twenty twenty exactly. 263 00:15:31,596 --> 00:15:34,236 Speaker 3: And then at some point you make a decision to 264 00:15:34,276 --> 00:15:36,116 Speaker 3: try again or you're able to try again. 265 00:15:37,276 --> 00:15:42,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we all get vaccinated, but we try again, 266 00:15:42,276 --> 00:15:44,276 Speaker 2: and so she comes out here and we go through 267 00:15:44,316 --> 00:15:48,996 Speaker 2: the whole process again. So this is August of twenty 268 00:15:49,036 --> 00:15:53,156 Speaker 2: twenty one. Okay, so it's August twenty twenty one. Haley 269 00:15:53,196 --> 00:15:55,156 Speaker 2: flies out here and we just had a wonderful time 270 00:15:55,156 --> 00:15:58,156 Speaker 2: because it was in some ways it was as though 271 00:15:58,196 --> 00:16:00,436 Speaker 2: no time has passed, right because we felt so close 272 00:16:00,476 --> 00:16:01,836 Speaker 2: to her. But in other ways it was as though 273 00:16:01,916 --> 00:16:04,916 Speaker 2: so much time had passed, because you could see changes 274 00:16:04,916 --> 00:16:08,036 Speaker 2: in the depth of our conversation and just how comfortable 275 00:16:08,156 --> 00:16:09,796 Speaker 2: we felt with each other. 276 00:16:11,236 --> 00:16:12,636 Speaker 1: And so we go into the room and. 277 00:16:14,076 --> 00:16:16,476 Speaker 2: I can already feel some of the light you know, 278 00:16:16,556 --> 00:16:20,316 Speaker 2: PTSD feelings kicking in because this time when we're doing 279 00:16:20,316 --> 00:16:23,356 Speaker 2: the ultrasound, I don't cry to do the transfer, I mean, 280 00:16:23,516 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 2: you know, the embryo transfer. I'm just I'm holding my 281 00:16:27,676 --> 00:16:30,076 Speaker 2: breath more than I did the first time. Like I 282 00:16:30,076 --> 00:16:34,356 Speaker 2: feel a little anxious, you know, and you know everyone's like, 283 00:16:34,436 --> 00:16:36,436 Speaker 2: just stay positive, stay positive, stay positive. 284 00:16:36,476 --> 00:16:38,436 Speaker 1: So I so we stayed positive. 285 00:16:38,676 --> 00:16:43,196 Speaker 2: And within two weeks we got those darkening line pregnancy tests. 286 00:16:45,116 --> 00:16:47,156 Speaker 2: I told her that, you know her, her hormone levels 287 00:16:47,156 --> 00:16:49,156 Speaker 2: were super high this time. So I was like, Haley, 288 00:16:49,156 --> 00:16:52,236 Speaker 2: you're pregnant AF. So that was our that was our 289 00:16:52,236 --> 00:16:59,076 Speaker 2: WhatsApp group name, Haley's Pregnant AF. We'll be right back 290 00:16:59,196 --> 00:17:12,556 Speaker 2: to the slight change of plans. When Jimmy and I 291 00:17:12,636 --> 00:17:15,596 Speaker 2: found out that Haley was pregnant again, we were ecstatic. 292 00:17:16,196 --> 00:17:19,116 Speaker 2: We had transferred one embryo and we felt so fortunate 293 00:17:19,156 --> 00:17:21,996 Speaker 2: it had worked. Jimmy and I would go for long 294 00:17:22,036 --> 00:17:24,916 Speaker 2: walks together and start imagining what life would be like 295 00:17:25,076 --> 00:17:31,396 Speaker 2: with our little Chinese Indian baby, and we named her 296 00:17:31,756 --> 00:17:33,676 Speaker 2: like Karina, that's going to be our name. So as 297 00:17:33,716 --> 00:17:39,876 Speaker 2: pregnant AF with Karina shunker Lee. And she's pregnant, and 298 00:17:42,276 --> 00:17:45,156 Speaker 2: like clockwork, on exactly the same day, Haley gets morning 299 00:17:45,196 --> 00:17:49,156 Speaker 2: sickness as she did the first pregnancy. Everything's going super well, 300 00:17:49,156 --> 00:17:51,196 Speaker 2: her levels are looking super strong. 301 00:17:51,916 --> 00:17:52,076 Speaker 3: And. 302 00:17:54,716 --> 00:17:57,196 Speaker 2: I just start I just start feeling anxious as the 303 00:17:57,236 --> 00:18:01,196 Speaker 2: six week mark approaches, because it feels very irrational and 304 00:18:01,316 --> 00:18:03,156 Speaker 2: like there's no reason at all to believe that if 305 00:18:03,156 --> 00:18:05,676 Speaker 2: there's a miscarriage, it would happen, you know, at the 306 00:18:05,716 --> 00:18:07,956 Speaker 2: six week mark, right like it could happen at seven 307 00:18:07,996 --> 00:18:11,076 Speaker 2: and a half weeks, it could happen, you know, twenty weeks. 308 00:18:11,116 --> 00:18:13,876 Speaker 2: You just don't know in this process. So I felt 309 00:18:13,876 --> 00:18:16,676 Speaker 2: like I was getting irrationally anxious. So I kept trying 310 00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:18,716 Speaker 2: to talk myself off, talk myself off the ledge and 311 00:18:18,796 --> 00:18:20,516 Speaker 2: be like, there's no reason to believe this would happen. 312 00:18:22,956 --> 00:18:26,356 Speaker 2: I'd set up an email address for Karina, and I'd 313 00:18:26,356 --> 00:18:28,676 Speaker 2: been sending her emails along the way about the pregnancy, 314 00:18:28,716 --> 00:18:31,636 Speaker 2: about Haley. It's like, hey, you know, hey little Karina, 315 00:18:31,996 --> 00:18:34,996 Speaker 2: it's mom. You know, here's an update. And I remember 316 00:18:34,996 --> 00:18:36,836 Speaker 2: I wrote to her the night before. I said, Hey, 317 00:18:38,676 --> 00:18:43,116 Speaker 2: tomorrow is a really big milestone for us, because we 318 00:18:43,156 --> 00:18:46,236 Speaker 2: get through it. Like it's one day more, you know, 319 00:18:46,356 --> 00:18:48,716 Speaker 2: that next day it's one day more than the last pregnancy, 320 00:18:49,036 --> 00:18:53,716 Speaker 2: and I just feel like I'll feel some relief. It's 321 00:18:53,756 --> 00:18:58,556 Speaker 2: Tuesday morning. I wake up and I have relief because 322 00:18:58,556 --> 00:19:01,196 Speaker 2: I look at my phone, and I'm like, there's no 323 00:19:01,276 --> 00:19:06,236 Speaker 2: message from her saying that she bled overnight. And then 324 00:19:06,276 --> 00:19:07,876 Speaker 2: she texts us saying, you know, I was a little 325 00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:10,996 Speaker 2: scared this morning because I woke up not feeling morning sickness. 326 00:19:11,796 --> 00:19:13,556 Speaker 2: She had had other days like that, so it wasn't 327 00:19:13,556 --> 00:19:18,676 Speaker 2: immediately alarming. And then at ten thirty am, I get 328 00:19:18,676 --> 00:19:21,596 Speaker 2: a message from her and she says, I just had 329 00:19:21,636 --> 00:19:24,676 Speaker 2: a gush of blood and my heart sank. 330 00:19:24,716 --> 00:19:27,156 Speaker 1: I was like, you have got to be kidding me. 331 00:19:28,196 --> 00:19:31,516 Speaker 2: How is this happening again, like on exactly the same 332 00:19:31,596 --> 00:19:34,196 Speaker 2: day as last time, Like it just it didn't make 333 00:19:34,556 --> 00:19:36,796 Speaker 2: any sense, And so we called the doctor and they 334 00:19:37,796 --> 00:19:40,196 Speaker 2: they're like, Okay, it could be a miscarriage. However, it 335 00:19:40,196 --> 00:19:42,276 Speaker 2: could be another thing. It could be a hematoma. Right, 336 00:19:42,436 --> 00:19:44,476 Speaker 2: It could be that there is some blood pooling in 337 00:19:44,476 --> 00:19:46,956 Speaker 2: that area and it just needs to get out. Why 338 00:19:46,996 --> 00:19:49,076 Speaker 2: don't we have her goat get an ultrasound? And so 339 00:19:49,836 --> 00:19:52,156 Speaker 2: even though she's like actively bleeding, she goes to get 340 00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:58,076 Speaker 2: this ultrasound and we're expecting the worst. I mean, I'm 341 00:19:58,116 --> 00:20:02,276 Speaker 2: an optimist, so of course, until you tell me like, no, 342 00:20:02,556 --> 00:20:04,436 Speaker 2: there's nothing there, I'm always going to hope. I'm always 343 00:20:04,436 --> 00:20:06,276 Speaker 2: going to hold on to that shred. I think Jimmy 344 00:20:06,316 --> 00:20:08,116 Speaker 2: at this point had just given up. He was like, Maya, 345 00:20:08,596 --> 00:20:13,396 Speaker 2: all hope is lost. And this incredibly kind doctor is 346 00:20:13,436 --> 00:20:16,996 Speaker 2: on the call and he's doing the ultrasound. He's like, 347 00:20:17,516 --> 00:20:20,516 Speaker 2: there's your baby, and her heart beat's perfect, it's one 348 00:20:20,596 --> 00:20:23,756 Speaker 2: hundred and sixty. She's measuring exactly as she should at 349 00:20:23,796 --> 00:20:27,636 Speaker 2: six weeks, and oh my god, there is that hematoma, 350 00:20:27,756 --> 00:20:30,716 Speaker 2: Like there is this blood pool, and so that does 351 00:20:30,796 --> 00:20:34,036 Speaker 2: explain the bleeding. Like, you guys are good. And I 352 00:20:34,156 --> 00:20:38,276 Speaker 2: was just sobbing, like the relief that I felt, Oh 353 00:20:38,316 --> 00:20:41,836 Speaker 2: my gosh, there's an explanation and our baby is looking 354 00:20:41,996 --> 00:20:44,356 Speaker 2: great and we're going to have this child. And then 355 00:20:45,196 --> 00:20:48,596 Speaker 2: he goes over the area again and he goes, oh 356 00:20:48,636 --> 00:20:52,036 Speaker 2: my god, there's another one. You guys are having twins, 357 00:20:54,276 --> 00:20:58,196 Speaker 2: and that one's also perfect. That one has a beautiful 358 00:20:58,196 --> 00:21:03,716 Speaker 2: heartbeat and is measuring great. You guys are having twins. 359 00:21:04,556 --> 00:21:08,036 Speaker 2: And Hailey was so happy, and I remember in that 360 00:21:08,116 --> 00:21:10,636 Speaker 2: moment I said to her, I said, look, I'm grateful 361 00:21:10,796 --> 00:21:13,556 Speaker 2: for one or two. I don't I didn't need to. 362 00:21:13,876 --> 00:21:17,076 Speaker 2: I just just wanted one, you know. But what matters 363 00:21:17,076 --> 00:21:19,916 Speaker 2: to me most is that it's with you. And so 364 00:21:19,916 --> 00:21:21,556 Speaker 2: what I just kept saying, I was like, I wanted 365 00:21:21,556 --> 00:21:23,156 Speaker 2: this to be with Haley. I wanted this to be 366 00:21:23,236 --> 00:21:24,876 Speaker 2: with Haley, and it's with you, and we get to 367 00:21:24,916 --> 00:21:29,316 Speaker 2: do this journey with you. And Jimmy and I take 368 00:21:29,316 --> 00:21:30,756 Speaker 2: a walk at this point of the day. We're like, 369 00:21:30,796 --> 00:21:33,316 Speaker 2: let's just get some fresh air. And now we're planning 370 00:21:33,316 --> 00:21:35,796 Speaker 2: our life with twins. We're thinking to ourselves, if you 371 00:21:35,916 --> 00:21:38,916 Speaker 2: need to buy a home, there should be like many bedrooms, 372 00:21:39,076 --> 00:21:41,716 Speaker 2: and how are we gonna care for twins? And we 373 00:21:41,796 --> 00:21:43,796 Speaker 2: start thinking about a second. You know, Haley had said, 374 00:21:43,796 --> 00:21:45,636 Speaker 2: I guess it's time to start thinking of another name. 375 00:21:45,756 --> 00:21:47,596 Speaker 2: So we're like, what goes well with Karina, you know, 376 00:21:47,636 --> 00:21:50,516 Speaker 2: And we just start brainstorming and we have this walk 377 00:21:50,516 --> 00:21:53,036 Speaker 2: and it's just like we're floating on air, you know it. 378 00:21:54,076 --> 00:21:56,076 Speaker 2: We can't wait to tell the people who we've told 379 00:21:56,116 --> 00:21:58,596 Speaker 2: that she's miscarried to that it's actually the opposite. And 380 00:21:58,916 --> 00:22:02,596 Speaker 2: you're not even just getting one, We're getting two. So 381 00:22:04,716 --> 00:22:07,596 Speaker 2: I go back home and I text Haley and I say, 382 00:22:08,156 --> 00:22:10,836 Speaker 2: you know, I leaded the what to expect act on 383 00:22:10,876 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 2: my phone this morning when I got the news about 384 00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:14,556 Speaker 2: the blood because I didn't want to get my hopes 385 00:22:14,636 --> 00:22:17,076 Speaker 2: up and I just wanted it. I wanted to remove 386 00:22:17,116 --> 00:22:18,756 Speaker 2: all evidence of that of my phone and I said 387 00:22:18,756 --> 00:22:27,276 Speaker 2: maybe I should reinstall it. And her response was, guys, 388 00:22:27,836 --> 00:22:30,556 Speaker 2: the thing that I've been bleeding out recently, like, it's 389 00:22:30,596 --> 00:22:37,556 Speaker 2: not it's not blood. And she takes a picture of 390 00:22:37,596 --> 00:22:40,716 Speaker 2: it and we send it to our doctor and our 391 00:22:40,716 --> 00:22:43,716 Speaker 2: doctor calls us. We're like, could this be anything? Could 392 00:22:43,716 --> 00:22:44,236 Speaker 2: this be? 393 00:22:44,596 --> 00:22:44,676 Speaker 3: Like? 394 00:22:45,196 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 1: What is this? 395 00:22:48,116 --> 00:22:50,356 Speaker 2: You know Jimmy studied biology in college. He's like, my 396 00:22:51,196 --> 00:22:53,156 Speaker 2: MAYI that's his nickname for me. He's like, this is 397 00:22:53,196 --> 00:22:56,596 Speaker 2: not a blood clot. I'm so sorry. And when the 398 00:22:56,636 --> 00:22:59,116 Speaker 2: doctor looked at it, I just remember I heard I 399 00:22:59,156 --> 00:23:01,876 Speaker 2: heard the sound in her voice. She's like, you know 400 00:23:01,916 --> 00:23:03,916 Speaker 2: you could hear it, Like I knew the answer before 401 00:23:03,916 --> 00:23:06,036 Speaker 2: she said it. She goes, I'm just so sorry, guys. 402 00:23:06,396 --> 00:23:15,236 Speaker 2: I can't believe this has happened. And it's hard to 403 00:23:15,276 --> 00:23:17,436 Speaker 2: describe what that feels like. I wanted to throw up. 404 00:23:18,236 --> 00:23:25,796 Speaker 2: I felt totally nauseated and disoriented. I felt so sad 405 00:23:26,236 --> 00:23:28,596 Speaker 2: that Haley was suffering. I felt so sad she was 406 00:23:28,636 --> 00:23:34,156 Speaker 2: going through this trauma again. And it was confirmed by 407 00:23:34,196 --> 00:23:38,516 Speaker 2: a ultrasound that there was nothing there anymore. The next morning, 408 00:23:38,716 --> 00:23:43,916 Speaker 2: and the hardest part of this process was learning that 409 00:23:45,596 --> 00:23:48,996 Speaker 2: our embryos were actually great, and Haley was great, but 410 00:23:49,156 --> 00:23:56,116 Speaker 2: very likely there's some sort of incompatibility between our biologies. 411 00:23:56,316 --> 00:23:59,476 Speaker 2: The doctor's best guest right now is that her immune 412 00:23:59,476 --> 00:24:03,916 Speaker 2: system sees our embryos as foreign in some way. I 413 00:24:03,956 --> 00:24:06,796 Speaker 2: asked my doctor, I said, have you ever seen this before? 414 00:24:06,836 --> 00:24:11,396 Speaker 2: And she said no, And I think there's a bizarre 415 00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:15,116 Speaker 2: immune response happening here. And what that meant is we 416 00:24:15,116 --> 00:24:18,836 Speaker 2: can't work with her anymore. She said to me this morning, 417 00:24:18,956 --> 00:24:21,636 Speaker 2: She goes, it is so cruel that a relationship that 418 00:24:21,756 --> 00:24:27,596 Speaker 2: is so compatible is biologically incompatible, and you just can't 419 00:24:27,636 --> 00:24:28,436 Speaker 2: fight biology. 420 00:24:28,436 --> 00:24:29,076 Speaker 1: What are you going to do? 421 00:24:29,716 --> 00:24:33,316 Speaker 2: You know, the doctors are like, this would probably happen again, 422 00:24:33,516 --> 00:24:35,276 Speaker 2: and we can't put you guys through that. You can't 423 00:24:35,276 --> 00:24:39,156 Speaker 2: put yourselves through that. You just have to find another surrogate. 424 00:24:39,156 --> 00:24:42,076 Speaker 2: And what's again I'm astonishing to us, is like Haley 425 00:24:42,196 --> 00:24:45,316 Speaker 2: was willing to try again with us and again and again, 426 00:24:45,356 --> 00:24:48,236 Speaker 2: because that's the kind of person she is. And I'm 427 00:24:48,276 --> 00:24:53,916 Speaker 2: just overwhelmed still that someone would go through this, go 428 00:24:54,036 --> 00:24:58,116 Speaker 2: through this pain, because she's so eager to make us happy. 429 00:24:58,636 --> 00:25:01,556 Speaker 2: That's an incredible gift. I've never met anybody like her 430 00:25:01,636 --> 00:25:04,036 Speaker 2: in my life. I probably never will. 431 00:25:04,556 --> 00:25:07,516 Speaker 3: Yeah, so i'm hearing you tell this story, I just 432 00:25:07,516 --> 00:25:14,116 Speaker 3: want to acknowledge that it is incredibly harrowing and what 433 00:25:14,156 --> 00:25:17,596 Speaker 3: you've gone through over the last few days is horrible, 434 00:25:17,756 --> 00:25:22,716 Speaker 3: and yeah, I am so sorry. 435 00:25:22,836 --> 00:25:25,476 Speaker 1: Thank you. 436 00:25:25,476 --> 00:25:30,716 Speaker 3: You know. I'm also struck by the fact that you 437 00:25:31,156 --> 00:25:36,596 Speaker 3: have gone through this experience twice now, and that the 438 00:25:36,636 --> 00:25:40,956 Speaker 3: first time that Haley miscarried was back in March of 439 00:25:40,996 --> 00:25:45,356 Speaker 3: twenty twenty when COVID was beginning for all of us, 440 00:25:45,436 --> 00:25:48,716 Speaker 3: and I just remember that the world was sort of 441 00:25:49,156 --> 00:25:53,036 Speaker 3: changing overnight for many of us, and then on top 442 00:25:53,076 --> 00:25:58,676 Speaker 3: of that change, you had this other incredible loss, And 443 00:25:58,796 --> 00:26:00,876 Speaker 3: I'm curious, what was that experience? Like? 444 00:26:03,716 --> 00:26:09,556 Speaker 2: It was really hard, it's very lonely, it's very iclating. 445 00:26:12,316 --> 00:26:16,636 Speaker 2: You feel like people can intellectualize it, but also maybe 446 00:26:16,636 --> 00:26:19,796 Speaker 2: not just fully understand the emotions behind it, because I 447 00:26:19,836 --> 00:26:23,116 Speaker 2: didn't fully understand the emotions behind it until I went 448 00:26:23,116 --> 00:26:28,596 Speaker 2: through it myself. I just didn't. It built my empathy 449 00:26:28,716 --> 00:26:31,996 Speaker 2: so much, and the way that I dealt with it, 450 00:26:32,076 --> 00:26:37,316 Speaker 2: Tyler was I was like, I have to make something 451 00:26:37,356 --> 00:26:41,636 Speaker 2: good out of this, and then it's funny to think back, 452 00:26:41,676 --> 00:26:44,356 Speaker 2: I've just forgotten about this until you mentioned it. Like 453 00:26:45,476 --> 00:26:47,716 Speaker 2: I thought of this podcast idea called a Slight Change 454 00:26:47,756 --> 00:26:51,236 Speaker 2: of Plans, and it was a grief project for me. 455 00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:53,596 Speaker 1: It was my way of. 456 00:26:55,556 --> 00:26:59,476 Speaker 2: Trying to find meaning and answers in a situation that 457 00:26:59,516 --> 00:27:03,196 Speaker 2: I couldn't find meaning and answers in. And I didn't 458 00:27:03,236 --> 00:27:07,036 Speaker 2: know how to navigate the change that was happening in 459 00:27:07,076 --> 00:27:09,876 Speaker 2: my life. I didn't know how to navigate miscarriage. I 460 00:27:09,876 --> 00:27:11,956 Speaker 2: didn't know how to navigate COVID. I didn't know how 461 00:27:11,956 --> 00:27:14,876 Speaker 2: to navigate all the loss that was happening in the world. 462 00:27:14,876 --> 00:27:17,916 Speaker 2: I didn't know how to navigate the racial injustice. I 463 00:27:18,036 --> 00:27:23,236 Speaker 2: felt completely overwhelmed, and I just thought to myself, I 464 00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:25,436 Speaker 2: know that I'm not alone in not knowing how to 465 00:27:25,516 --> 00:27:31,756 Speaker 2: navigate this moment. I know that there is a treasure 466 00:27:31,796 --> 00:27:34,796 Speaker 2: trove of wisdom out there on how to navigate change, 467 00:27:34,916 --> 00:27:38,556 Speaker 2: especially unwanted, unexpected change, and it's just a matter of 468 00:27:38,596 --> 00:27:44,236 Speaker 2: finding those stories and learning from them. And that's what 469 00:27:44,356 --> 00:27:47,316 Speaker 2: led me to build the show. It came out of 470 00:27:47,356 --> 00:27:51,076 Speaker 2: a personal desire to understand how it is that people 471 00:27:51,156 --> 00:27:55,036 Speaker 2: navigate change and to learn from them, because you know, 472 00:27:55,076 --> 00:27:57,676 Speaker 2: I'm a scientist, write a cognitive scientist. I study how 473 00:27:57,676 --> 00:28:01,116 Speaker 2: the mind works, I study change. I know the science, 474 00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:03,956 Speaker 2: but the science was falling short for me, and I 475 00:28:03,956 --> 00:28:06,476 Speaker 2: felt like I needed to hear people's stories and I 476 00:28:06,516 --> 00:28:08,356 Speaker 2: needed to emotionally connect with people. 477 00:28:09,156 --> 00:28:11,276 Speaker 3: It strikes me as I think I knew that, but 478 00:28:11,356 --> 00:28:14,676 Speaker 3: I'm just hearing it for the first time, that this 479 00:28:14,916 --> 00:28:18,156 Speaker 3: was your grief process, Right, I'm saying that correctly, Like 480 00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:20,236 Speaker 3: this was how in a way how you grieved, Right. 481 00:28:20,596 --> 00:28:23,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't, and I don't think I really made 482 00:28:23,396 --> 00:28:30,036 Speaker 2: the connection fully until this moment where everyone grieves differently, 483 00:28:30,356 --> 00:28:33,596 Speaker 2: you know, like I was. I was talking to Michael 484 00:28:33,636 --> 00:28:37,916 Speaker 2: Lewis after the tragic passing of his daughter, and he said, Maya, 485 00:28:37,996 --> 00:28:41,516 Speaker 2: no one knows shit about grief. Everyone's telling me how 486 00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:43,836 Speaker 2: to feel, everyone's telling me what book to read, Everyone's 487 00:28:43,836 --> 00:28:45,596 Speaker 2: telling me to do this and see this therapist and 488 00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:48,396 Speaker 2: talk about No. I need to create the Michael Lewis 489 00:28:48,396 --> 00:28:52,076 Speaker 2: plan how I grieve. And he's so freaking right about that, 490 00:28:52,276 --> 00:28:56,356 Speaker 2: Like there is no one size fits all recipe for 491 00:28:56,436 --> 00:28:59,476 Speaker 2: how to grieve. There's no one size fits all recipe 492 00:28:59,516 --> 00:29:02,516 Speaker 2: for how to change, how to deal with change. And 493 00:29:03,476 --> 00:29:06,596 Speaker 2: that's a sobering realization. When you're in the throes of grief, 494 00:29:06,636 --> 00:29:09,836 Speaker 2: you just want answers, you want a solution set, and 495 00:29:09,876 --> 00:29:12,876 Speaker 2: you can't get it, and so what you do instead 496 00:29:13,116 --> 00:29:16,076 Speaker 2: is realize, well, I have to find I have to 497 00:29:16,116 --> 00:29:20,156 Speaker 2: create a Maya plan, and I do my best when 498 00:29:20,156 --> 00:29:24,156 Speaker 2: I'm active, and I throw myself into passion projects when 499 00:29:24,156 --> 00:29:25,316 Speaker 2: I'm in a bad place. 500 00:29:25,436 --> 00:29:25,956 Speaker 1: Like that is. 501 00:29:26,596 --> 00:29:28,676 Speaker 2: Everyone has their own recipe, but for me, that is 502 00:29:28,716 --> 00:29:31,756 Speaker 2: how I heal to process out loud, to be open 503 00:29:31,796 --> 00:29:34,396 Speaker 2: with people, to throw myselves into creative projects that can 504 00:29:34,436 --> 00:29:37,396 Speaker 2: hopefully help people and make people feel stronger. 505 00:29:39,236 --> 00:29:43,156 Speaker 3: So, Maya, we've been talking for the last couple of days, 506 00:29:43,356 --> 00:29:46,756 Speaker 3: and it might be too soon to answer this question, 507 00:29:46,836 --> 00:29:50,436 Speaker 3: but I'm curious to know what you've learned about yourself 508 00:29:50,476 --> 00:29:51,476 Speaker 3: from all of this. 509 00:29:55,116 --> 00:30:00,116 Speaker 2: I learned that I'm really bad at acceptance. I always 510 00:30:00,116 --> 00:30:05,676 Speaker 2: want to justify things. I always want to resist the 511 00:30:05,756 --> 00:30:08,356 Speaker 2: randomness in our world that I know is just randomness. 512 00:30:08,516 --> 00:30:08,996 Speaker 1: You know I don't. 513 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:13,676 Speaker 2: I don't have religious or spiritual beliefs that help guide 514 00:30:13,716 --> 00:30:17,676 Speaker 2: me through these situations. I do just believe in people 515 00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:22,236 Speaker 2: having bad fortunes in life, you know. But I'm b 516 00:30:22,356 --> 00:30:24,796 Speaker 2: at acceptance, which means I tap into a very natural 517 00:30:24,796 --> 00:30:29,036 Speaker 2: part of my psychology, which is to tell stories, to 518 00:30:29,116 --> 00:30:31,196 Speaker 2: try to make sense of this, to try to find 519 00:30:31,196 --> 00:30:35,396 Speaker 2: something find something good that can emerge from this experience. 520 00:30:35,436 --> 00:30:37,316 Speaker 2: It's one of the reasons i'm talking with you today 521 00:30:38,396 --> 00:30:40,596 Speaker 2: because I need something good to come from this. And 522 00:30:40,676 --> 00:30:47,276 Speaker 2: if one listener hears this and feels that they're not alone, 523 00:30:47,476 --> 00:30:50,356 Speaker 2: then that is a silver lining. I want everyone to 524 00:30:50,436 --> 00:30:54,476 Speaker 2: know that my husband and I went through this, because 525 00:30:55,876 --> 00:30:57,356 Speaker 2: the more we talk about it, the more we can 526 00:30:57,356 --> 00:31:07,476 Speaker 2: support one another. I think what I learned is you 527 00:31:07,516 --> 00:31:09,716 Speaker 2: don't as a person. You don't even grew the same 528 00:31:09,756 --> 00:31:14,436 Speaker 2: way every time I'm grieving. I don't know yet all 529 00:31:14,476 --> 00:31:18,196 Speaker 2: the ways, but I feel like I'm grieving the loss 530 00:31:18,196 --> 00:31:22,556 Speaker 2: of these twins differently than I did the loss we 531 00:31:22,596 --> 00:31:31,796 Speaker 2: had last year. It feels very different, and in some ways, 532 00:31:34,196 --> 00:31:39,116 Speaker 2: in some ways it feels strangely easier because I feel 533 00:31:39,236 --> 00:31:44,076 Speaker 2: stronger because I know that I know that I've done 534 00:31:44,076 --> 00:31:47,116 Speaker 2: this before and I did make it out the other end, 535 00:31:49,956 --> 00:31:52,276 Speaker 2: And maybe that's the hope I can give to listeners 536 00:31:52,396 --> 00:31:58,436 Speaker 2: like these experiences can make you stronger. You can learn 537 00:31:58,476 --> 00:32:01,996 Speaker 2: how to you can learn what helps you build resilience 538 00:32:02,556 --> 00:32:04,556 Speaker 2: in your life along the way, and you can try 539 00:32:04,596 --> 00:32:04,956 Speaker 2: to do that. 540 00:32:07,156 --> 00:32:09,236 Speaker 3: What would you say to Haley in this moment. 541 00:32:12,116 --> 00:32:17,236 Speaker 2: That I love her and life works in really interesting ways. 542 00:32:17,436 --> 00:32:19,716 Speaker 2: You don't know the kinds of people that you'll meet 543 00:32:20,036 --> 00:32:24,436 Speaker 2: and how they'll touch you. So it's a gift. It's 544 00:32:24,436 --> 00:32:26,316 Speaker 2: a gift that we got to know her. That's why 545 00:32:26,476 --> 00:32:29,556 Speaker 2: I that's why the regret part of my brain has 546 00:32:29,596 --> 00:32:32,476 Speaker 2: just kind of turned off, because I'm like, wait, if 547 00:32:32,476 --> 00:32:34,436 Speaker 2: we hadn't gone through this experience, we wouldn't have met 548 00:32:34,516 --> 00:32:38,836 Speaker 2: this wonderful human being. And like that counts too in life, right, 549 00:32:38,956 --> 00:32:42,236 Speaker 2: we should be putting weight on that too, Humans who 550 00:32:42,276 --> 00:32:44,556 Speaker 2: come into our lives and enrich our lives. Like life 551 00:32:44,596 --> 00:32:47,156 Speaker 2: is not just about achieving a series of outcomes, it's 552 00:32:47,156 --> 00:32:52,036 Speaker 2: also letting in and creating space for unexpected, beautiful gifts. 553 00:32:52,156 --> 00:32:55,076 Speaker 2: And I think that's how we feel with her. 554 00:32:55,716 --> 00:32:58,676 Speaker 3: I have such a deep appreciation for you sharing this 555 00:32:58,796 --> 00:33:02,236 Speaker 3: story today, and I think that in you being so 556 00:33:02,396 --> 00:33:06,596 Speaker 3: open it is really going to help a lot of people. 557 00:33:06,996 --> 00:33:09,836 Speaker 3: And I just want to give you a chances is 558 00:33:09,876 --> 00:33:11,956 Speaker 3: there anything else that you'd like to share? 559 00:33:13,516 --> 00:33:20,756 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess one thing i'd share is I 560 00:33:20,796 --> 00:33:23,476 Speaker 2: feel closed off right now about the idea of a 561 00:33:23,516 --> 00:33:28,476 Speaker 2: new surrogate entering our lives. So fascinating how these bonds formed, 562 00:33:28,476 --> 00:33:31,276 Speaker 2: but it almost feels like a betrayal, like how could 563 00:33:31,276 --> 00:33:33,596 Speaker 2: I do this to Haley? Like could how could we 564 00:33:33,636 --> 00:33:37,516 Speaker 2: have somebody else? And obviously she was saying like, you 565 00:33:37,516 --> 00:33:40,276 Speaker 2: guys deserve a child so much, and you know she 566 00:33:40,276 --> 00:33:44,156 Speaker 2: would only ever be so supportive of our next steps. 567 00:33:46,156 --> 00:33:48,116 Speaker 2: But instinctively, I'm like, oh, I don't want to get 568 00:33:48,156 --> 00:33:51,036 Speaker 2: close to them. I don't want to have my heart 569 00:33:51,036 --> 00:33:53,956 Speaker 2: broken again. I want distance, Like I can feel my 570 00:33:54,676 --> 00:33:56,796 Speaker 2: protective defense mechanisms kind. 571 00:33:56,596 --> 00:33:59,556 Speaker 1: Of in high alert. And I talked to. 572 00:34:01,276 --> 00:34:05,076 Speaker 2: Our agency, our surrogacy agency folks, and they've been amazing, 573 00:34:06,556 --> 00:34:10,556 Speaker 2: And none of them said to me, you know, Maya, 574 00:34:10,636 --> 00:34:18,236 Speaker 2: your future surrogate, deserves your most loving self. That had 575 00:34:18,276 --> 00:34:24,676 Speaker 2: an impact on me. She does deserve it, and it 576 00:34:24,676 --> 00:34:27,676 Speaker 2: wouldn't be right to shield her from the love and 577 00:34:27,716 --> 00:34:30,596 Speaker 2: gratitude that I feel. So that means that I just 578 00:34:30,636 --> 00:34:32,916 Speaker 2: need to put an effort in hard work to get 579 00:34:32,956 --> 00:34:35,316 Speaker 2: to a point where I can open myself up again 580 00:34:36,076 --> 00:34:41,156 Speaker 2: before embarking on this journey again, because she deserves to 581 00:34:41,196 --> 00:34:44,636 Speaker 2: have all of Jimmy and me and all of our 582 00:34:44,676 --> 00:34:45,996 Speaker 2: openness and all of our love. 583 00:34:46,236 --> 00:34:46,596 Speaker 4: And so. 584 00:34:48,036 --> 00:34:49,796 Speaker 2: I guess as I look at next steps, that's my 585 00:34:49,876 --> 00:34:53,156 Speaker 2: first next step, before any of the logistics. It is 586 00:34:53,236 --> 00:34:56,516 Speaker 2: like figuring out how to feel hopeful and open again. 587 00:35:18,196 --> 00:35:20,516 Speaker 2: Join me next week. When I talk to Oscar nominated 588 00:35:20,556 --> 00:35:24,196 Speaker 2: actor riz Achmed, we talk about how finally playing a 589 00:35:24,276 --> 00:35:27,356 Speaker 2: role based on his own life has changed his understanding 590 00:35:27,476 --> 00:35:28,076 Speaker 2: of himself. 591 00:35:29,076 --> 00:35:30,596 Speaker 4: He's the one role I never get to play with 592 00:35:30,676 --> 00:35:35,636 Speaker 4: someone like myself. I realized that up until this point 593 00:35:35,676 --> 00:35:41,076 Speaker 4: as an actor, I'd become adept to molding masks and 594 00:35:41,156 --> 00:35:45,796 Speaker 4: wearing them for other people and representing other people, and 595 00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:48,796 Speaker 4: realized that actually the next stage of growth is about 596 00:35:49,396 --> 00:35:51,476 Speaker 4: not molding and wearing masks, but taking them off. 597 00:36:02,516 --> 00:36:05,636 Speaker 2: A Slight Change of Plans is creative, written and executive 598 00:36:05,676 --> 00:36:09,396 Speaker 2: produced by me Maya Schunker. The best part of this 599 00:36:09,476 --> 00:36:13,116 Speaker 2: show is getting to collaborate with my formidable Slight Change family. 600 00:36:13,836 --> 00:36:18,396 Speaker 2: This includes Tyler Green, our senior producer, whose unrivaled empathy 601 00:36:18,476 --> 00:36:22,596 Speaker 2: and kindness made this episode possible. Jen Guera our senior 602 00:36:22,716 --> 00:36:26,076 Speaker 2: editor who brings so much heart and conscientiousness to her 603 00:36:26,076 --> 00:36:30,676 Speaker 2: work on the show. Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rosstek, 604 00:36:30,796 --> 00:36:35,916 Speaker 2: our associate producer, and Neia LaBelle, our executive producer. Louis 605 00:36:35,956 --> 00:36:39,396 Speaker 2: Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped 606 00:36:39,436 --> 00:36:42,796 Speaker 2: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a 607 00:36:42,796 --> 00:36:46,156 Speaker 2: production of Pushkin Industry, so big thanks to everyone there. 608 00:36:47,636 --> 00:36:50,396 Speaker 2: I'd like to extend my heartfelt thanks to Haley, my 609 00:36:50,476 --> 00:36:53,516 Speaker 2: dear friend, for her openness and having me share our 610 00:36:53,556 --> 00:36:56,716 Speaker 2: story with all of you, our fertility clinic for their 611 00:36:56,756 --> 00:37:00,996 Speaker 2: compassion and support during our experience, and to Michael Lewis 612 00:37:01,276 --> 00:37:05,316 Speaker 2: for his friendship and advice, and of course a very 613 00:37:05,356 --> 00:37:09,116 Speaker 2: special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight 614 00:37:09,236 --> 00:37:12,916 Speaker 2: Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker, and 615 00:37:12,996 --> 00:37:16,036 Speaker 2: please remember to subscribe, share and rate the show to 616 00:37:16,116 --> 00:37:17,036 Speaker 2: help get the word out. 617 00:37:17,876 --> 00:37:18,636 Speaker 1: See you next week. 618 00:37:26,116 --> 00:37:29,476 Speaker 2: So spoiler alert, Jimmy and I are not chill people 619 00:37:30,356 --> 00:37:32,196 Speaker 2: about this sort of thing, right, the health of our 620 00:37:32,236 --> 00:37:38,316 Speaker 2: future baby. Like Haley was telling us that she came 621 00:37:38,356 --> 00:37:41,676 Speaker 2: home on a Saturday, and unbeknownst to her, her husband 622 00:37:41,676 --> 00:37:46,556 Speaker 2: had bought a bunny Oscar. Okay, Now, typically this would 623 00:37:46,556 --> 00:37:48,756 Speaker 2: just be like, you know, Haley's my friend. I'm like, 624 00:37:48,796 --> 00:37:50,556 Speaker 2: oh my god, that's so much fun. You guys have 625 00:37:50,796 --> 00:37:53,476 Speaker 2: a bunny, send me pictures? You know, how did you 626 00:37:53,516 --> 00:37:56,196 Speaker 2: decide on the name Oscar? Right, that's a normal conversation. 627 00:37:56,916 --> 00:37:59,916 Speaker 2: And instantly Jimmy and I are like, is this a 628 00:37:59,916 --> 00:38:00,836 Speaker 2: pregnancy hazard? 629 00:38:01,236 --> 00:38:04,956 Speaker 1: We go down? We go down a rabbit hole, no fun. 630 00:38:05,516 --> 00:38:08,756 Speaker 2: Of doing research on like PubMed and like, are there 631 00:38:08,796 --> 00:38:12,276 Speaker 2: any viruses that rabbits carry that can potentially be transmitted 632 00:38:12,276 --> 00:38:14,916 Speaker 2: to humans? And I just remember there was this moment 633 00:38:14,956 --> 00:38:19,996 Speaker 2: where Jimmy turned over to me and moves his laptop 634 00:38:20,076 --> 00:38:21,836 Speaker 2: so I can see what he's looking at. And it's 635 00:38:21,876 --> 00:38:25,076 Speaker 2: like he's at like Rabbit Welfare dot co dot UK 636 00:38:25,316 --> 00:38:27,116 Speaker 2: looking at health facts and he looked at me and 637 00:38:27,116 --> 00:38:31,156 Speaker 2: he's like, I never thought it would come to this.