1
00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,920
Speaker 1: Hello, They're happy Wednesday morning. I got a special for

2
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,639
Speaker 1: you today. It's a it's a two parter episode today

3
00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,960
Speaker 1: a part one, in part two, there's not a don't worry,

4
00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,640
Speaker 1: I don't have a cliffhanger, if you will. But it's

5
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,960
Speaker 1: in two parts because in some ways they're related conversations

6
00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:27,280
Speaker 1: on the current moment that we're having involving the Donald

7
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,800
Speaker 1: Trump's takeover at least temporary takeover of the DC Police

8
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,720
Speaker 1: Department and the surging of putting the National Guards, surging

9
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,280
Speaker 1: of federal resources in the cities, and I sort of

10
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,080
Speaker 1: I have two separate interviews one today that are dropping.

11
00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,519
Speaker 1: One is with a woman by the name of Jennessa Goldbecks.

12
00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,880
Speaker 1: She's a Marine Corps veteran. She runs a veteran focused

13
00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,839
Speaker 1: nonprofit now about getting in you know, getting veterans to

14
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,920
Speaker 1: engage in civics, essentially to get engaged in public service

15
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,600
Speaker 1: after their service. And she wants to raise the alarm

16
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,400
Speaker 1: about UH and is a fierce opponent of the idea

17
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,880
Speaker 1: of using the military as a domestic police force and

18
00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,680
Speaker 1: sort of the the potential that that has, the negative

19
00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,040
Speaker 1: consequences that could have, how that can create more politicizing

20
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,840
Speaker 1: in the military sort of create and the last thing

21
00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,759
Speaker 1: we want as a polarized military. We have a polarized military.

22
00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,440
Speaker 1: You know, you go to other countries where the military

23
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,240
Speaker 1: basically takes a political side and you have no democracy.

24
00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:33,080
Speaker 1: Right the Republic is gone on that front. So it's

25
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,080
Speaker 1: it's in that sense that's the that's part one of

26
00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,080
Speaker 1: the conversation I have. Part two is with the reporter

27
00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,120
Speaker 1: from the New York Times, this terrific story about about

28
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,280
Speaker 1: our crime issue in America and about this was about

29
00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,680
Speaker 1: a month ago, and I set up the interview and

30
00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:51,560
Speaker 1: the timing could be more perfect, and we spoke with

31
00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,520
Speaker 1: them earlier this week. Or mon Lopez who did a

32
00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,080
Speaker 1: piece about how about half of all murders in America

33
00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,520
Speaker 1: never gets solved. Think about that half of all murders

34
00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,800
Speaker 1: in America don't get solved and and sort of what

35
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,120
Speaker 1: are the reasons behind that? And the fact is we

36
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:13,359
Speaker 1: have a we have a resource deprived law enforcement community.

37
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 1: It's a nationwide issue. Okay, like the issue. So you know,

38
00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 1: if you're trying to understand why maryel Bowser, the mayor

39
00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,400
Speaker 1: of d C, isn't pushing back harder, and we can

40
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,160
Speaker 1: get into that. I got to, you know, and tomorrow's episode,

41
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,120
Speaker 1: I want to go deeper into you know, when do

42
00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,440
Speaker 1: you push back and when don't and Trump one point

43
00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,359
Speaker 1: oh versus Trump two point zero. But for the purposes

44
00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,959
Speaker 1: of the day, sort of the tact that she's taken,

45
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,480
Speaker 1: which is, hey, we welcome the extra help. I've been

46
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,600
Speaker 1: asking for the extra help. Now the question, you know,

47
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,920
Speaker 1: so she she's being de escalatory here, and there are

48
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,320
Speaker 1: some who want to fight the president harder on this. Now,

49
00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,120
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, these are legal orders

50
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,840
Speaker 1: he has. And this is what I think the mayor

51
00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,720
Speaker 1: understands is that, you know, resisting him will perhaps provoke

52
00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:58,840
Speaker 1: him even more. And then all of a sudden, do

53
00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:00,960
Speaker 1: they lose home rule? Right, all of a sudden do

54
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,400
Speaker 1: Congressional Republicans rally around So's she's playing a long game here,

55
00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,360
Speaker 1: and at the end of the days she has made

56
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,000
Speaker 1: clear the city needs more resources. By the way, it

57
00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,560
Speaker 1: isn't just Washington, DC. And this is what Herman Lopez.

58
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,160
Speaker 1: It's Louisville, Kentucky, It's Cincinnattie, Ohio, It's Chicago, Illinois. So

59
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:23,960
Speaker 1: I say, every jurisdiction in America is suffering from a

60
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,040
Speaker 1: police shortage the major cities. You know, some of it

61
00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:32,280
Speaker 1: is police recruitment's never been harder. There's there's some that

62
00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,960
Speaker 1: are hesitanting of going in because it feels like there

63
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,600
Speaker 1: isn't the same level of respect that to police forces

64
00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,680
Speaker 1: as ever before that it has become polarizing, that has

65
00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,520
Speaker 1: become politicized, that there's this idea that police officers are

66
00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,000
Speaker 1: in one political party and all of this, and so

67
00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,440
Speaker 1: we've really we've you know, at the end of the day,

68
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,480
Speaker 1: everybody wants to secure in safe neighborhood wherever they live,

69
00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,440
Speaker 1: whether they live in a blue city or a red

70
00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,680
Speaker 1: count and that is I think there's no I think

71
00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,840
Speaker 1: what's really frustrating about this debate is I think everybody

72
00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:11,160
Speaker 1: agrees we need that, we want more police, we want

73
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,599
Speaker 1: more police resources, but better trained police. And the idea

74
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,600
Speaker 1: that there can't be some sort of middle ground that

75
00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,919
Speaker 1: does both here is I think a bit of a

76
00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:29,120
Speaker 1: head scratcher. Right. It does seem as if there are

77
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,080
Speaker 1: those that want to score political points, or there are

78
00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,640
Speaker 1: those that are worried about political constituencies more than they're

79
00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,480
Speaker 1: worried about everyday safety. You know, as I always say,

80
00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,400
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. You know, people want

81
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,640
Speaker 1: economic security, they want personal security, and they want health security, right,

82
00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:48,960
Speaker 1: those three things. And when you mess with any of

83
00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:53,359
Speaker 1: those three things, they usually revolt at the ballot box

84
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,039
Speaker 1: against one party or another on those And it's those

85
00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,479
Speaker 1: three items are voting items, right. Everything else is a

86
00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:01,760
Speaker 1: nice to have, but those three items, in different ways

87
00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,320
Speaker 1: can be voting items. And I get, you know something,

88
00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 1: the mayor Bowser ought to be pushing back harder. But

89
00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,120
Speaker 1: again he's got a lot of authority here to do

90
00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,720
Speaker 1: what he's doing. And there's another theory of the case.

91
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,880
Speaker 1: It says, hey, if you don't resist him, he'll lose

92
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:22,920
Speaker 1: interest and move on. And in this case it may

93
00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,920
Speaker 1: very well be right. He's got a summit later this

94
00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:32,599
Speaker 1: week with Putin. This feels like he just like everything,

95
00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,360
Speaker 1: everything is seated the pants with him, right, And yet

96
00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,560
Speaker 1: there was always he was always looking for. I mean,

97
00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,560
Speaker 1: if there is a pattern between Trump one point on

98
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,800
Speaker 1: Trump two point zero, any any entity that he believed

99
00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:50,240
Speaker 1: wronged him, he has tried to destroy or weaponize or replace. Right.

100
00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,599
Speaker 1: He thought the FBI under Chris Ray wronged him, so

101
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,599
Speaker 1: he politicized the FBI. He thought the Department of Justice

102
00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 1: wasn't political enough, right, Jeff Sessions and Bill Barr didn't

103
00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,600
Speaker 1: abide by him. So he put in somebody with with

104
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,400
Speaker 1: that's more comfortable politically and who seems to be there

105
00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,240
Speaker 1: is no there is no attempt even to pretend that

106
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,240
Speaker 1: there's distance from the Department of Justice and the White House.

107
00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,240
Speaker 1: He had multiple Defense secretaries who tried to keep the

108
00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,720
Speaker 1: firewall of politics in the military. He has a more

109
00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,920
Speaker 1: compliant Defense secretary who's who is certainly a cultural political warrior,

110
00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,680
Speaker 1: and Pete Haigseth. He didn't like that the intelligence community

111
00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,119
Speaker 1: would release inconvenient facts, so he put two political hacks

112
00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,479
Speaker 1: in charge of the intel community, and Ratcliffe and Gabbard

113
00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,960
Speaker 1: and so forth. So, and he was always angry at

114
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,440
Speaker 1: the district, right, you know, June one, twenty twenty, which

115
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,200
Speaker 1: was the infamous day. It was the George Floyd was

116
00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,840
Speaker 1: you know, during the week of the George Floyd protests

117
00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,440
Speaker 1: and at Lafayette Square, and he had that which was

118
00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,040
Speaker 1: a humiliating moment for the country and him where he

119
00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:01,560
Speaker 1: stood before the Church of Presidents and essentially tried to

120
00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:08,640
Speaker 1: tried to politicize the military and the government against that situation.

121
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,800
Speaker 1: And you know, but I think forever changed. Mark Milly,

122
00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 1: who at the time was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs

123
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,360
Speaker 1: and who was who believes some real damage was done

124
00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,480
Speaker 1: in that sort of trying to keep politics out of

125
00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,000
Speaker 1: the military, trying to keep military leaders from being roped

126
00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,400
Speaker 1: into a political situation, and now we're in some ways

127
00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 1: he was. There was no matter what Mariel Bowser did

128
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,240
Speaker 1: to appease Trump, paint over the Black Lives mural mortar,

129
00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,720
Speaker 1: do these little things, make sure he's involved, let him

130
00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:48,400
Speaker 1: essentially announce the Washington Commander's NFL deal, things like that.

131
00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,200
Speaker 1: None of it was going to appease me. He was

132
00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,880
Speaker 1: always going to He wanted to essentially play with the

133
00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,640
Speaker 1: military in DC because he could, because the advisors tell

134
00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 1: him that it was an easy thing to do. He

135
00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,280
Speaker 1: was going to do it and try it, just like

136
00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:04,840
Speaker 1: he did in California. He was going to do it

137
00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,600
Speaker 1: and try it. And I think, you know, it's fair

138
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,200
Speaker 1: to assume, fair to wonder whether he was hoping for

139
00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,000
Speaker 1: a backlash, hoping that it would provoke so that in

140
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,800
Speaker 1: some ways he could do even more right. And the

141
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,560
Speaker 1: decision not to provoke maybe has sort of weakened his

142
00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,920
Speaker 1: resolve on this, So we'll see if this is the

143
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,600
Speaker 1: right tactic. I'm also a mindset of if you give

144
00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,960
Speaker 1: them house a cookie, they're going to keep coming back

145
00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,880
Speaker 1: for more on this. But look, to me, we do

146
00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,400
Speaker 1: have a resource issue when it comes to policing in America.

147
00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 2: We have a.

148
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,760
Speaker 1: We have an issue of the reputation of police officers

149
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,720
Speaker 1: in America, fair or unfair. There's a many police officers

150
00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,000
Speaker 1: feel as if they've been used as political pawns and

151
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,720
Speaker 1: they don't like to be used as political pawns, and

152
00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,240
Speaker 1: they don't feel like they're getting the support that they need.

153
00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,920
Speaker 1: And there's plenty of communities who feel that they want

154
00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,440
Speaker 1: more police protection, but they don't like necessary least some

155
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,280
Speaker 1: of the tactics that that that some use. And so,

156
00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,680
Speaker 1: like anything, these are these are real problems that we

157
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,920
Speaker 1: need to address. And in some ways, you know, Trump

158
00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,800
Speaker 1: can force the issue, but sometimes he doesn't. It doesn't

159
00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,000
Speaker 1: create the conversation we should be having. We end up

160
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:21,160
Speaker 1: having a different conversation. So look, uh, it's uh, it's

161
00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,480
Speaker 1: I was hoping I want to take this moment to

162
00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,880
Speaker 1: give you sort of a larger picture, right, what what

163
00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,360
Speaker 1: is why is it? Why is it sort of un

164
00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,480
Speaker 1: American to have the military used in domestic policing. Right,

165
00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,199
Speaker 1: That's part one of the conversation. But part two is, Hey,

166
00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,760
Speaker 1: we do have a problem in cities coast to coast, uh,

167
00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,760
Speaker 1: And this is a resource issue with policing in America,

168
00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:49,640
Speaker 1: and we need to figure out how to surge. We

169
00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,320
Speaker 1: need we need to up you'll you'll hear this from

170
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:53,840
Speaker 1: her mind. There's a lot of things we need to

171
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 1: take advantage of technology. We need to surge police where

172
00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,480
Speaker 1: it's necessary. So there are a lot of things we

173
00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,960
Speaker 1: can do to make more Americans feel safe in their

174
00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:10,800
Speaker 1: home than they do today. What we what we're all hopeful,

175
00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,079
Speaker 1: what we all wish we could have is we could

176
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:18,240
Speaker 1: have these debates without having without having politics get in

177
00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 1: the way or exploit fear in the moment, which is

178
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,560
Speaker 1: something that you know, this is not new, uh in

179
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,319
Speaker 1: our politics or anybody's politics when we have it. So uh. Anyway,

180
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,720
Speaker 1: it's a short, shorter setup today because I've I'm overloading

181
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,440
Speaker 1: you today with these two conversations, but I really do

182
00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,480
Speaker 1: that when you hear them both together sort of, you know,

183
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,200
Speaker 1: that's what I provide. I'm trying to provide some nuance

184
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:54,160
Speaker 1: and some explanatory, uh, revelatory conversations rather than rather than

185
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,760
Speaker 1: just trying to point fingers and and play to an algorithm.

186
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,800
Speaker 1: So with that we'll see in a quick break and

187
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,480
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy this sort of two parts special

188
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:08,040
Speaker 1: if you will, on policing in America and the role

189
00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:24,160
Speaker 1: the military shoulder shouldn't play. The conversation about the Washington,

190
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,000
Speaker 1: DC issue is sort of a there's sort of two

191
00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,439
Speaker 1: facets to the conversation. And then I have two different

192
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,360
Speaker 1: interviews that we're going to be focusing on. This one

193
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:38,680
Speaker 1: is about the issue of policing and crime in America,

194
00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:44,120
Speaker 1: which is an issue of a resource crunch all over America,

195
00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,720
Speaker 1: and that is a that is one conversation to have.

196
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,040
Speaker 1: But the other conversation I have is this role of

197
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,600
Speaker 1: the military in domestic policing, and that's where I want

198
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 1: to begin. My guest right now is Jenessa Goldbeck. She's

199
00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,880
Speaker 1: a Marine Corps veteran. She's currently the CEO of VET

200
00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,120
Speaker 1: of the Vet Voice Foundation. It's a national nonprofit that

201
00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,000
Speaker 1: mobilizes veterans and military families to be civic leaders and

202
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 1: policy advocates. And if you know, if you've heard me

203
00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,400
Speaker 1: rant about leadership in America. I believe sort of the

204
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,360
Speaker 1: you know, the ideal here is we kind of need

205
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,960
Speaker 1: our military veterans to help sober up the country's polarization.

206
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,240
Speaker 1: I'm convinced that the military in many ways has been

207
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,640
Speaker 1: the ideal to show how we're all Americans first, and

208
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,400
Speaker 1: I think in many ways, military veterans at least have

209
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:36,000
Speaker 1: the best perspective of being in Generally, I'm not saying

210
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,600
Speaker 1: there's always veterans specifically that are in one camp or another,

211
00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,800
Speaker 1: but generally, somebody that comes from a military background is

212
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,760
Speaker 1: able to see the country as one first before seeing

213
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,720
Speaker 1: people as blue or red, et cetera. So I think

214
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,559
Speaker 1: that's why this is an important conversation. Now, it's worth

215
00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:01,120
Speaker 1: noting that one of the one of Genesa's focuses is

216
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:07,360
Speaker 1: on opposing She's outspoken against the use of deploying troops

217
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,720
Speaker 1: for domestic policing, and that's why I want to get

218
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,600
Speaker 1: the conversation started. So Jenessa, welcome to the podcast.

219
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:13,760
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

220
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,720
Speaker 1: So let's start with just give me your origin story,

221
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,520
Speaker 1: your time in the military. What got you into the military,

222
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,319
Speaker 1: why'd you stay as long as you did, and how

223
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:25,679
Speaker 1: you ended up where you are today.

224
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I had kind of an unusual path in

225
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,840
Speaker 2: I started my career out as a human rights advocate,

226
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,080
Speaker 2: working to push the US government to be better about

227
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,560
Speaker 2: protecting civilians and conflict zones. I studied abroad in East

228
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,520
Speaker 2: Africa as an undergrad, learned about the genocide that was

229
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,400
Speaker 2: unfolding in darfor Sudan, and became part of that movement.

230
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,959
Speaker 2: Moved to d C right out of college to do

231
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,960
Speaker 2: that work professionally. And at that time I had really

232
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,640
Speaker 2: no connection to the military other than my grandparents having

233
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,360
Speaker 2: served in World War Two. I didn't know anybody who

234
00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,520
Speaker 2: had joined the military or was currently deployed. But working

235
00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,760
Speaker 2: in human rights advocacy in conflict zones, I learned very

236
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 2: quickly how important it was to have security forces providing

237
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:12,000
Speaker 2: that corridor for our humanitarian operations. And it really exposed

238
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,760
Speaker 2: me to a whole different side of the military that

239
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,559
Speaker 2: I knew had existed. And I saw firsthand that there

240
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,200
Speaker 2: was a big disconnect between our humanitarians on the ground

241
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,520
Speaker 2: and the people providing security forces. And I thought, you know,

242
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,880
Speaker 2: what a better way to get that experience than to

243
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,200
Speaker 2: actually join the military, get a master's degree, in military speak,

244
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,040
Speaker 2: so to speak. So at twenty six years old, if

245
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:33,760
Speaker 2: you're going to join the military, might as well go

246
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,320
Speaker 2: all the way in. I decided to join the Marine

247
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 2: Corps as an officer, went to Quantico, was designated as

248
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,520
Speaker 2: a combat engineer officer, and then really fell in love

249
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,680
Speaker 2: with the military writ large. You know, you spoke at

250
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,080
Speaker 2: the beginning of your comments about how the military represents

251
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,880
Speaker 2: sort of American ideals writ Large, And that's really true.

252
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,240
Speaker 2: You are working with people from all walks of life,

253
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,680
Speaker 2: all backgrounds, and being an officer, in particular, getting to

254
00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,960
Speaker 2: lead and learn from your marines and sailors a real privilege.

255
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,440
Speaker 2: So stayed in for seven years, got out, and now

256
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,200
Speaker 2: I've been working leading this organization to help elevate the

257
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,960
Speaker 2: voices of other veterans who really are concerned about what's

258
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 2: happening in our country today.

259
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,040
Speaker 1: Well, you're right, that is an unusual path and it's

260
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:19,840
Speaker 1: like what a what a what a intro got a

261
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,120
Speaker 1: gutsy decision you made and at the same time, good

262
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,960
Speaker 1: for you. I mean, this is a piece of this

263
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 1: is you know, regrets is the wrong word. It's a

264
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 1: It's an experience I wish I had.

265
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:32,960
Speaker 2: Well I'll tell you. You know my parent I grew

266
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,280
Speaker 2: up in southern California and my parents were a pretty

267
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:41,240
Speaker 2: hippy dippy, you know, vegetarian Pacifists. And when I came

268
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,640
Speaker 2: out to them, they were like, we love you no

269
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,000
Speaker 2: matter what. And what I told them I was leaving

270
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,160
Speaker 2: human rights at Becacy to join the Marine Corps. They

271
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,960
Speaker 2: were appalled. You know, these are not the values they'd

272
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,080
Speaker 2: raised me with, so a little bit of a different

273
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,880
Speaker 2: experience than a lot of my peers joining the Marines

274
00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,320
Speaker 2: or that I served with. But at the end of

275
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,920
Speaker 2: the day, you know, that stuff gets set aside when

276
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,920
Speaker 2: you're digging a hole in the rain or carrying a

277
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 2: heavy load, Like it doesn't matter where you were raised

278
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,680
Speaker 2: or what your background is. People just want to know

279
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,720
Speaker 2: that you're competent, you can do your job, and that

280
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,400
Speaker 2: you'll have their back. And I think we've really gotten

281
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,400
Speaker 2: away from so much of that in our society. There's

282
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,520
Speaker 2: very few experiences people have like that with people that

283
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 2: are different than themselves.

284
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,960
Speaker 1: Well, this is why I'm I'm somebody who thinks we

285
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,400
Speaker 1: should have mandatory national service. I think what the Israelis

286
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 1: do when everybody has to serve for two years, you know,

287
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:36,120
Speaker 1: it sort of it elevates the importance of citizenship and

288
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,480
Speaker 1: sort of the duty. And I think that, you know,

289
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,000
Speaker 1: how else are we going to get red and blue

290
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:42,280
Speaker 1: to understand each other?

291
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,200
Speaker 2: So I have one hundred percent agree. And I think

292
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 2: in a nation that has a shortage of law enforcement

293
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,400
Speaker 2: officials and nurses and teachers, like, there's a lot of

294
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,760
Speaker 2: different ways that public service could be, you know, a

295
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,840
Speaker 2: lot of different ways you could serve and I would

296
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:57,720
Speaker 2: absolutely love.

297
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:57,960
Speaker 1: To see that.

298
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,960
Speaker 2: I think it's a huge, huge potential for this country.

299
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,280
Speaker 1: And it takes something like that on and I think

300
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 1: that that what a lot of Americans don't realize is

301
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,800
Speaker 1: how often the Marines are a police force overseas, but

302
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,880
Speaker 1: in a humanitarian you know, which is about protecting those

303
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:18,480
Speaker 1: I mean, it's look, I don't want to get I

304
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,480
Speaker 1: don't want to have a Gaza conversation, but there's a

305
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,400
Speaker 1: part of me that wishes that the you know, send

306
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 1: in the Marines and we'll get everybody fed. Like I'm

307
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,919
Speaker 1: convinced of that, Like to get everybody out of the

308
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,159
Speaker 1: way and we'll get everybody fed. Again, not going to

309
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,960
Speaker 1: we're here to talk about a separate discussion, but explain

310
00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,480
Speaker 1: that like, because that's it. Because the importance of that.

311
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,439
Speaker 1: Sometimes you do have political leaders who say, well, they

312
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,439
Speaker 1: do this overseas, why shouldn't we ask them to do

313
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 1: it over here?

314
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 2: That's right? Well, I mean, the Marine Corps is a

315
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,680
Speaker 2: no fail mission organization. Like you get a task, whether

316
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,480
Speaker 2: you're a lance corporal, a captain, or a general, like,

317
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,720
Speaker 2: you're going to complete that task. And that is the

318
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,639
Speaker 2: whole orientation of everyone who wears a Marine Corps uniform.

319
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,160
Speaker 2: And so regardless of how complicated it is, there's there's

320
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 2: going to be a way to get it done. You

321
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:07,520
Speaker 2: don't need to have the right equipment. You know, we

322
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 2: always call it, we call it a seventy percent solution,

323
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 2: Like you figure it out with what you've got and

324
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,080
Speaker 2: even if it isn't perfect, you're going.

325
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:14,840
Speaker 1: To get it done.

326
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,720
Speaker 2: So I do think there is a gut instinct for

327
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,679
Speaker 2: people who want to have solutions quickly to use the

328
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,960
Speaker 2: military in that way. But one of the things that

329
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 2: makes America special is that we have drawn a very

330
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,879
Speaker 2: clear and distinct line between the military and domestic civilian policing.

331
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,679
Speaker 2: And the reason that we do that is because they

332
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 2: are very different missions. It's one thing to go kick

333
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,440
Speaker 2: down a bunch of doors and you know, set set

334
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,240
Speaker 2: a perimeter and establish a base of operations. It's another

335
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,400
Speaker 2: thing to quell civil disobedience to police in a way

336
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,639
Speaker 2: that actually proves community safety. And so we are now

337
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 2: this president is sending uniform military who are not necessarily

338
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,640
Speaker 2: trained for the missions they're being asked to do into

339
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 2: the streets. We saw this in LA with the Marine

340
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,760
Speaker 2: Corps being deployed as a you know, a force to

341
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:12,359
Speaker 2: protect federal property, an infantry battalion that's trying to lay

342
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,560
Speaker 2: rounds down range being asked to do domestic policing, and

343
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 2: this escalating set of missions for the National Guard, who

344
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,879
Speaker 2: are people who signed up to protect the homeland from

345
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 2: foreign threats and to respond to things like natural disasters,

346
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 2: not police their friends and neighbors.

347
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,679
Speaker 1: So, you know, it's interesting the training you get for

348
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,440
Speaker 1: these for these missions that are both humanitarian and security,

349
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,159
Speaker 1: and what is it that makes them different than the

350
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,680
Speaker 1: training you would get for to, you know, in the

351
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:50,200
Speaker 1: National Guard, to deal with, you know, a natural disaster

352
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 1: that knocks the power out and you need kind of

353
00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,480
Speaker 1: some security to make sure people are you know, are

354
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 1: are getting food, et cetera.

355
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 2: Well, I can speak from ice as a marine and

356
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,360
Speaker 2: a marine that was attached to an infantry battalion. The

357
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,359
Speaker 2: force that we saw deployed in Los Angeles, those were

358
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 2: infantry marines. Their primary mission is to close with and

359
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 2: destroy the enemy. That is very different from a police

360
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 2: officer's oath to serve and protect and de escalate. The

361
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 2: Marine Corps, especially the infantry, is a by nature escalatory force.

362
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,720
Speaker 2: For the National Guard, you know, their training is a

363
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 2: little different. They are trained for civil disturbances and to

364
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,359
Speaker 2: respond peaceably and peacefully to those things, and to to

365
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,159
Speaker 2: help local law enforcement when it's requested. What's been so

366
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 2: different about this iteration, whether it's La Washington, d C.

367
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 2: Or whatever city we're going to see the President deployed

368
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,880
Speaker 2: National Guard to next, is that local law enforcement UH

369
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,480
Speaker 2: and local leaders have said this is not necessary, this

370
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,400
Speaker 2: is escalatory, it's actually inflammatory, and we have the situation

371
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,880
Speaker 2: under control. In Los Angeles, you actually saw the sheriff

372
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,399
Speaker 2: and the chief of police of the LAPD, which is

373
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,719
Speaker 2: not like a notoriously woke organization, come out and say,

374
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 2: like sending the National Guard in the Marines here is

375
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,959
Speaker 2: really escalatory. Please do not do it, and so I

376
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 2: think this president is actively seeking to provoke protests, to

377
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 2: use protest as a means and mechanism for further militarization,

378
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 2: as a way of getting us used to seeing troops

379
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 2: in the streets, and in my view, the endgame is

380
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 2: using the military to police the next election.

381
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: Well, I get Look, I understand that concern, and I

382
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,439
Speaker 1: don't want to dismiss it, But let me start with

383
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: how the mayor of DC, mariel Bowser, has been. She's

384
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 1: been How about that this is probably the best phrase

385
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: to use. She's been de escalatory. Right, She's saying, look,

386
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: I'm uncomfortable with this. At the same time, I've needed

387
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: more resources. Right, she's been, as a friend of mine

388
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 1: noted the other day, she's been a walking billboard for

389
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 1: looking for new more cops. Right, please, we need more

390
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 1: people to do this. And so she's chosen the route

391
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 1: of saying, well, we appreciate that the federal government wants

392
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: to help us out, right, and she's using it as

393
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 1: additional resources. Do you worry that she's been too cooperative?

394
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: Do you think that she should be? Or she's in

395
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: a unique circumstance where the president does have authority over

396
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 1: her city in a way that frankly, no other police

397
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,679
Speaker 1: force or no other mayor has to deal with.

398
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: She She is very in a very unique position, and

399
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 2: it's a very challenging position to be in. And I

400
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 2: don't I'm not in the business of necessarily arms chairk

401
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 2: quarterbacking elected leaders in the moment when they're responding to

402
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 2: sort of unprecedented things. But there are a couple of

403
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 2: things that I a couple of notes I would offer

404
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 2: the mayor if she's listening. One is that you know,

405
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 2: there is also there is a way to call out

406
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 2: how disingenuous this offer is from the president for this

407
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 2: attempt is you know, Congress, it has a lot of

408
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 2: influence over DC. The president has a lot of influence

409
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 2: and DC's budget. There's been a budget shortfall for police

410
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,679
Speaker 2: officers in Washington, d C. If they were serious about this,

411
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 2: they could have handled it through fiscal mechanisms. There's also

412
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 2: this idea that they're going to take the police department's

413
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 2: authority away and give it to the attorney general. Pambondi.

414
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 2: I can't think of a single police chief I've ever

415
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,719
Speaker 2: met with or interacted with that would appreciate their authority

416
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 2: being undermined by a federal official, and there's a lot

417
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 2: of questions about operationally how this is going to work

418
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 2: in a normal situation, if the president had gone to

419
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: the mayor and said, you know, like if this was

420
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 2: a truly from his heart desire to quell crime and

421
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: not a political stunt, could have gone to the mayor

422
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 2: and said, hey, I have resources. You can request them,

423
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 2: and we'll go through the normal channels and we can

424
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 2: deploy them as you see fit and as local leaders

425
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 2: see fit. On what's happened here, the President has said,

426
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,959
Speaker 2: you know, DC is a city full of crime and

427
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 2: bedlam and all of the all of the escalatory things

428
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 2: that he said, and you know, against sort of the

429
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 2: wishes or the requests or and without coordination, the local

430
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 2: leadership has just you know, declared this state of art. Yeah.

431
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: Now, this is the political trap he sets, which is

432
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: almost like, you know, and this is sort of the

433
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: debate and I just had it with somebody not too

434
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: long ago, about an hour or so ago. But the

435
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: issue of do you if you don't take his bait, right,

436
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: if you sort of say great, thank you very much,

437
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: he'll lose interest. Right in some ways, did he do

438
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: this because he thinks DC needs more resources. Did he

439
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 1: do this hoping there would be a large pushback and

440
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: therefore allowing him to do even more? And that if

441
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: you know, he does have a habit of if it's

442
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: if there, If he's trying to pick a fight nobody

443
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: wants to fight, he moves and goes fund finds another fight. I'

444
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 1: vacillate whether that's a good, good idea or not, right,

445
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: I think that I I understand and Trump two point

446
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: oh the idea of of sort of like you know,

447
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: not everything needs to go to eleven like it did

448
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: in one point zero, and yet the collective resistance of

449
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 1: one point oh I think did frame the larger conversation correctly.

450
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: So where are you on this?

451
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I don't think Trump is playing you know,

452
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 2: three or forty chess. I think he never does to

453
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 2: the latest thing.

454
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: That's always checkers, right, and it's always like the dumbest

455
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: form of checkers.

456
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. You know, he saw this kid in front

457
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: of him, you know, bloodying the pal of his picked

458
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: up the phone and called him, and he went to

459
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 2: eleven and DC. You know, that's that's sort of the

460
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 2: most generous maybe interpretation if I were to, you know,

461
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: apply a little myth, if there's a little more strategy

462
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 2: to it, I think you're totally right. I mean, the

463
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 2: administration's strategy has been from day one is like, let's

464
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 2: light a thousand things on fire. See what kicks they've

465
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 2: They've got things they need to distract people from the

466
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 2: big beautiful bill which is going to rip people's healthcare away,

467
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,719
Speaker 2: close rural hospitals, the Epstein files, all these things are

468
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 2: things that they don't want at the top of the

469
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 2: news cycle. So you know, any other fire they can

470
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 2: light is a good one. But what we saw in

471
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: LA was, you know, I think they expected to see

472
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: some real violent protests as a result of the militarization,

473
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: which didn't unfold, and the President and the Secretary Defense,

474
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: you know, sort of eventually just dialed it back down

475
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 2: to you know, a low grade, tiny little deployment. Couple

476
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: hundred guys left just sitting around looking at their phones.

477
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: So I think it's a little of both. But either way,

478
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: what I feel like is happening and is likely to

479
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 2: continue happening in more and more places, is this sort

480
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: of just continued sense that it's okay and normal for

481
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 2: the military and National Guard to be deployed to do

482
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: civilian missions.

483
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: And I guess that's the you know, take me back

484
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: to your time in the military, because i've up until frankly,

485
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: this current set of you know, what the what the

486
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: president's been doing. And you know he couldn't politicize the

487
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,959
Speaker 1: military in his first term, right Mattis wouldn't allow it.

488
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 1: You know, he got it. He decided to pick his

489
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 1: own chairman of the Joint Chiefs and you know, Mark

490
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: Milly was just not going to you know, he wasn't

491
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: going to cooperate. It's now, you know, he's now got

492
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: a more compliant Defense secretary than he did before. Talk

493
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: about your did you ever run into anybody trying to

494
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: play politics? And how did the leadership de escalate at

495
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: the time.

496
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 2: So I came in in a really interesting time. Donas

497
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 2: Hotel was actually repealed while I was at Quantico for

498
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: my basic officer training. Interesting within the first cohort of

499
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: officers that could serve openly. I signed my contract under

500
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: Donastontell relatively naively, thinking like, oh, you know, nobody's going

501
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: to care, without realizing how you know, destructive that could

502
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: have been to my career. So I was able to serve,

503
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 2: you know, very much as myself. It mattered a lot,

504
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: and it didn't matter at all, right, Like I could

505
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: just bring my whole self to the job without looking

506
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 2: over my shoulder. I also was pretty stunned to learn

507
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: when I joined in twenty twelve that there were jobs

508
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 2: in a federal government in the DoD specifically that were

509
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: closed to women simply on the basis of gender. We

510
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: couldn't even compete for them. And I really wanted to

511
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: be an infantry officer, that is, like one of the

512
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: things that motivated me to join the Marine Corps was

513
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 2: the boots on the ground aspect of that job in particular.

514
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 2: And so I worked behind the scenes with a number

515
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 2: of other people to advocate for the repeal when I could,

516
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: you know, in a nonpartisan way, helping advise some of

517
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: the folks who were speaking to people up a hill

518
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: about that. And there were certainly people who disagreed with

519
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: kind of all of the things I just laid out,

520
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: women in combat arms jobs, gay people being able to

521
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 2: serve openly, and there were people in my career who

522
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: I would say, when out of their way to make

523
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: life harder for me. But the vast majority did it

524
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: because at the end of the day, people, like I

525
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: said earlier, the orientation is do your job, do it well,

526
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: be someone who's dependable, and the rest of it doesn't

527
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: really matter.

528
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: Do you really feel like your time was a meritocracy.

529
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And in fact, when the combat exclusion policy was

530
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 2: repealed and people could finally, you know, women could finally

531
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: start competing for combat arms jobs. You know, there were

532
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: a number of women who attempted and didn't pass the standard,

533
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 2: and then people started training to the standard, and then

534
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 2: they started getting those jobs and then succeeding in those jobs,

535
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 2: and it really like there was no you know, shock

536
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: wave through the service. You know, people grumble, people bring

537
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: their own prejudices and gripes to any job. But at

538
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: the end of the day, y're all wearing the same uniform.

539
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: Everybody's uniform says US Marines across your chest, and you're

540
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 2: just to do your job. And there are things that

541
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: are more important than that. What we have now at

542
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: the head of the Secretary of Defense, who has just

543
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: made culture Wars is number one priority to rip apart

544
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: any sort of recognition or any sort of understanding that

545
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: people who bring different backgrounds to the fight are actually

546
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: strengthening the US military. Is just I think he's doing

547
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: generational harm to the military, to our civ mill relationship

548
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 2: between how the US population, where civilians seize the military,

549
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: whether or not they respect them. And these missions also

550
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: increasingly kind of blur the lines between the military being

551
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 2: a tool that's there to serve and defend America rather

552
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: than a tool of the president's own domestic political control.

553
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was just going to say, just true cohesion, right, Like,

554
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: I got to think that this has been very disruptive.

555
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I've seen I've seen the polling of troops. Okay,

556
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,479
Speaker 1: we know there's a there's a red lean Okay to

557
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: the rank and file military. Maybe it depends. Maybe it's

558
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: sixty forty, maybe it's fifty five to forty five. It

559
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: all depends, right, But there's you know, because for a

560
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:24,239
Speaker 1: variety of reasons, do you get the sense that this

561
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: current Secretary of Defense almost wants to grow that even more?

562
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: Do you feel as if that there's an attempt only

563
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: recruit like minded. I mean, has recruiting changed or is

564
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: it becoming self selecting? Because that seems to me that

565
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: could create a problem for true cohesion going forward.

566
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: Oh one, Well, first of all, I think it's really

567
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: important to pick up on the first part of your

568
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: comment that the split sixty forty fifty five to forty five.

569
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: The last couple of presidential elections, we've seen veterans and

570
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: actiduty military flip flop between supporting Biden in twenty twenty

571
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: or a huge majority shifting towards Biden and twenty twenty

572
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: two people shifting back to Trump in twenty twenty four,

573
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: which tells you a little bit about some of the

574
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: apoliticalness or the independent nature of a lot of people

575
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 2: in the military. I do think there's a perception among

576
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 2: Democrats that the military and veterans are writ large conservative

577
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: and forty five you know.

578
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: It drives me nuts they they do. They almost treat

579
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: it as a hostile constituency group, which becomes self reinforcing

580
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: if you're not careful.

581
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and a real misstep in my opinion, because you know,

582
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: forty forty five percent of any demographic is not something

583
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: you want to leave on the table in any election,

584
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: especially as ones as close as our national elections have

585
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: been in recent years. And you know, there are a

586
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: lot of people who are not attached to any political

587
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: party who are willing to be persuaded, you know, if

588
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: you're speaking our language. So I think that's that's an

589
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: important first point. The second point your question is Pete

590
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: hugs APT intentionally trying to create division and recruit a

591
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 2: force that meets his vision of a white, you know,

592
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 2: Christian fascist state. Absolutely, and we've seen you know, we've

593
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: seen him fire generals who are women and people of color.

594
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: We've seen him denigrate the service of people who have

595
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: served commendably, commendably and honorably who are trans. To actually

596
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: institute a policy where if people don't have gender dysphoria

597
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: noted in their medical record, but someone thinks their trans

598
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: are non binary, that they should be outed by their peers.

599
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: That there is There was a partisan political rally f

600
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: Fork Bragg with the President speaking to uniformed troops in

601
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: a partisan manner and selling racist merch like all of

602
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,239
Speaker 2: these things should shock the conscience. And I think one

603
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: of the most disturbing things about the era that we're

604
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: in is that not a single ACTI duty military leader

605
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: has come forward and been willing to sacrifice their career

606
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 2: to speak out, and that.

607
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 1: It takes a curiosity me because this is the this

608
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: is a larger theme I address it today. Which is

609
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: the difference between Trump one point oh and Trump two

610
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: point zero? Is it is that Look, there was there

611
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: was sort of collective pushback in Trump one point zero,

612
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: and I think because you had Republicans in Congress speaking out,

613
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: it gave it stiffened the spine of others to do

614
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: it too. And now we are so right, he is

615
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: the Republican Party is speaking as one. Right. Those that wanted,

616
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: you know, that felt uncomfortable with Hagseeth literally got harassed

617
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: into confirming him, literally harassed by people outside their house, hitting,

618
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: going after family members. I mean, it was the the

619
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: it is. It is an undercovered part of the Hagseth confirmation.

620
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: Is what happened, in particular with with whether it's Tom

621
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: Tillis or johni Ornstrument or two of the you know,

622
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: they they And here's the thing, none of us are

623
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: in their shoes, you know. So I'm I am. I

624
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: am empathetic of we don't. You know, everybody handles this

625
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: stuff differently, but I imagine it's quite difficult for somebody in

626
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: the military, who, on the one hand, doesn't want to

627
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: be seen as partisan at all and doesn't want to

628
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: make what somebody will label a political stand. And yet

629
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: Donald Trump has turned any criticism into partisanship, right, which

630
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: is like, if you criticize the president's him, you must

631
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 1: be a liberal, which is like, no, just because I'm

632
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: not a conservative doesn't make me a liberal, right Like,

633
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: And I'm sure many in the military feel that way.

634
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: It's like, hey, I'm independent for a reason. And I mean,

635
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: you know, I guess I do you empathize with these

636
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: military leaders that are you know, I think many of

637
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: them would like to speak out, But to what end

638
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 1: is what they might say, So give give the case

639
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 1: the to what end?

640
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 2: I'm empathetic, but I'm not sympathetic because I believe that

641
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: with power comes responsibility.

642
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: And when I look at Spider Man, always right, the

643
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 1: Spider Man meme is always true, I agree.

644
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 2: I mean, I look at Jonie Ernst, who built her

645
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 2: career on being a survivor of sexual assault, of being

646
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: a proud military veteran, and then voted to confirm Pete Hesa,

647
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: and I understand I've heard rumors that she was being harassed,

648
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: you know, viciously staff too.

649
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: They targeted everybody I mean it is Look, I you know,

650
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 1: this is this they targeted. You know, they target family members,

651
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: They go after staff's family members.

652
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 2: It is which is despicable, but it doesn't extraordinary use.

653
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: You're a sitting US senator and you were one vote

654
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 2: away and you were going to, I don't know, sacrifice

655
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 2: everything you've stood and fought for for your entire career

656
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 2: because of fear of retribution. Like that to me, if

657
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 2: you're in that position to make that decision and you

658
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: were making a decision out of fear, we've already lost

659
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 2: our democracy and your role is sentate is not real.

660
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: You don't have any power anymore. So what do you

661
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 2: actually have to lose if all of your decisions are

662
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: dictated by the president. So that is how I feel

663
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 2: about members of Congress who have totally advocated their responsibility

664
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: to be a third branch of government. On the military side,

665
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: I do have more sympathy because you know, these are

666
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 2: folks who signed up to serve in an apolitical manner

667
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: and now are being forced into this very partisan political moment.

668
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: But the fact that there isn't one general officer who

669
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 2: is willing to say, you know what the country is

670
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 2: worth more than my pension, and I understand that this

671
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: may put me and my family and people I love

672
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 2: in danger. Like that really concerns me. And we saw

673
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: it in the first Trump administration on people like Lieutenant

674
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: ronox Vinman, you know, reported Trump's corruption and lost his

675
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: career and went through the ringer as a result of it.

676
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 2: But it just really stands out to me that there

677
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: is no one willing to say and I I like,

678
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 2: I've spoken to a few people who are still in

679
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: the building and they're like, I'm doing what I can

680
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: to protect the people below me and slow roll policies

681
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: that I think will maybe disappear.

682
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: And I hear this. Look, I hear this too. You know, Hey,

683
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: if I go, you don't understand who replaces me? Right right,

684
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: I've heard that too, right Yeah.

685
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 2: But you know, at the end of the day, like

686
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: we are seeing across every sector a real lack of courage.

687
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 2: I think institutions bowing to the whims of the president,

688
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 2: you know, willing to basically pay bribes to avoid the

689
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: President's wrath. And what has that gotten them. It's not

690
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 2: like he's going to stop. He's a thug, and he

691
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: is using the presidency to enrich himself and.

692
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: Everything you need to know. We were taught in the

693
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 1: children's book if you give a mouse a cookie, it's

694
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: exactly I mean, I get it. I'm obsessed. I say

695
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 1: it a lot on this podcast. But it's like that

696
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 1: does feel like what Trump two point zero has been,

697
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 1: which is like, you know, oh, maybe we can placate

698
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: him with this, you know, all right, take the cooking now, any.

699
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 2: This time, the mouse has a gun, not a cookie.

700
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. So let's talk about the conversation that's happening in

701
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: veterans communities, right, because I you know, there's there's definitely

702
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: sort of I think there's a lot of veterans I

703
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 1: talk to who are like very disturbed by Trump, not

704
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: comfortable with the Democrats, and feel kind of politically homeless. Right,

705
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure this is a conversation you have quite frequently.

706
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: What do you say to them? What do you tell them,

707
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: and what's the best way to engage engage them?

708
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 2: Well, I feel, you know, I feel equally frustrated with

709
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 2: the Democrats. I think we've seen a lot of fecklessness

710
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 2: and unwillingness to adapt to the current situation that we're

711
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 2: in to you know, treat President Trump's actions as if

712
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,439
Speaker 2: we're living in nineteen ninety five and there is some

713
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 2: you know, one national news broadcast they can go on

714
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 2: and talk to Chuck Todd and change you know, everyone's opinions.

715
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: It just anymore, it's not.

716
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 2: And so it's an unwillingness to adapt to the new

717
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 2: media environment. It's an unwillingness to adapt to the new

718
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 2: realities that we're not dealing with an administration that cares

719
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 2: at all about norms, and to treat it like what

720
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 2: it is, which is a person and an an organization

721
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 2: seeking perpetual power and to enrich themselves and the people

722
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 2: who have helped them gain power. So, you know, it's

723
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: interesting though, because we do work to help veterans get elected.

724
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 2: You know, I run a non part as an organization,

725
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 2: but it's the sister organization of an organization called vote

726
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: Vets that works to get left of center Vets elected.

727
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: And what we see in a lot of those races,

728
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 2: many of them in red and purple places, people are

729
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: you know, disgusted or disappointed by the Democrats. They're horrified

730
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: by the Trump administration and the MAGA movement, but they

731
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 2: like the individual candidates running who are veterans and Democrats.

732
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 2: And I think that that kind of speaks to what

733
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: a veteran means to a lot of voters who might

734
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: be independent or moderate on either side of the aisle.

735
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: And I do think that voters still truly believe because

736
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,879
Speaker 2: it's real that veterans kind of speak both languages because

737
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 2: they've had to work with people of all stripes, and

738
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 2: you know, their oath is to the Constitution, not one

739
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 2: party or one person.

740
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: So that gets another debate that's happening on the left,

741
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,919
Speaker 1: and that gets at when do you fight fire? When

742
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: when do you fight fire with fire? And when do

743
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: you stand on principle right? And I'll just be honest,

744
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: I think the I think that what Donald Trump wants

745
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 1: is for everybody to break the rules like he does.

746
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 1: And he you know, because he he knows how to

747
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: win those fights. He knows how to live in that world,

748
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 1: a world without rules, where it's just winners and losers.

749
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: If you're on the winning side, the majoritarian side, you

750
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 1: get to dictate everything, you get to do all this.

751
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,399
Speaker 1: It's obviously not what our founders intended, right. In fact,

752
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: the entire point of the Constitution was to protect minority

753
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: rights to make sure a tyrannical Slim majority couldn't just

754
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 1: run over the minority rule, whether it's minority and religion

755
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: and speech, etc. But and yet I understand they're like, well,

756
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: if he's not going to play fair, why should we

757
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: play fair? What's the line? How do you you know,

758
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 1: as somebody who comes from a world where if you

759
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: don't follow protocol.

760
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: People die, right.

761
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: The wrong person might get shot, a wrong person might

762
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: be Look, I get it, but I'm I'm you know,

763
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: I still want to believe that the long game is

764
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 1: the better game.

765
00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: Let's say you yeah, I think we're probably talking about

766
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 2: some of the partisan redistricting that's happening around the country

767
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:03,479
Speaker 2: or being.

768
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: It's not just said this is the latest example, but

769
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot of this that's like, hey, all's fair.

770
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 2: You know.

771
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,479
Speaker 1: I always say there's all's fair in love and war,

772
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: but actually there are rules to war, right, we condemn

773
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: a country that violates the Geneva Conventions. So like there

774
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: is even some there is some front guardrails that we

775
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: would like to put on war. Does that mean everybody

776
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: follows those guardrails? No, But there is this sense of hey,

777
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: there there should be some guardrail here and how this

778
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: is conducted, and that gets to this domestic political debate.

779
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: So and look, you know, I've had people unless say

780
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: you're being naive. You can't just sit here and hope

781
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: that norms come back.

782
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think what we're facing more broadly is just

783
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: a is a crisis of faith that any system or

784
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: institution can actually positively impact people's lives. And Trump is

785
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: harnessed the most negative version of that to enrich himself,

786
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 2: whereas Democrats are out there, many Democrats are out there

787
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 2: saying like, we want to change the system to help you,

788
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 2: but we you know, we want to use process to

789
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 2: get things done, and we want to do it by

790
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 2: the right process and make sure it's all, you know,

791
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: good to go, and we're doing as little harm as possible.

792
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: And what that translates to is in not making a

793
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 2: real difference in people's lives in a moment that they

794
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 2: see it in. And so I think that we need

795
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: to be willing, you know, people who want to govern

796
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 2: and lead this country need to be willing to look

797
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 2: at the power and authority they actually possess in this

798
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: moment where we have a arsonist at the head of

799
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 2: our system, of government. You know, I don't think that

800
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 2: every Republican is the same, like and I think Trump

801
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,879
Speaker 2: is something unique and special, not in a positive way,

802
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 2: but he really has been, uh an aberration and a

803
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 2: once in a generation figure. And so I think it

804
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: is imperative on Democrats to use and other election you know,

805
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 2: hopefully Republicans too, to use every amount of power they

806
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:15,280
Speaker 2: have to push back with an understanding that that power

807
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: has to be restrained and constrained once we get through this.

808
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 2: But it feels a little bit to me like I

809
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: live in southern California. If my house catches on fire,

810
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 2: even though we have a drought, I want the firefighters

811
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 2: to use that water on my house. And that's what

812
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 2: it feels like the moment we're in right now.

813
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: No, and I get it. So, you know, look, California

814
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: is you know, I don't like the mindset of, hey,

815
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: it's not fair what Texas is doing, so we're going

816
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: to punish the minority in California because of what Texas

817
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: is doing. That's a tough I'm sorry, I think that's

818
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: a tough position to hold.

819
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't speak to my sense of justice, but

820
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: it's also you know, if I if I'm facing a

821
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 2: really scary situation, like do I want to be able

822
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 2: to defend myself and my home. Absolutely, And I think

823
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 2: we're in a really scary situation where this guy is

824
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 2: coming for he already has come for many of my rights.

825
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 2: The movement that he represents is coming for the rights

826
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 2: and safety of a lot of other people, and I

827
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 2: think he needs to be stopped at all costs. But

828
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 2: that being said, with guardrails built in. One thing I've

829
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 2: heard about Governor Newsom's proposition to put something on the

830
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 2: ballot that would redistrict California is that there would be

831
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 2: a trigger mechanism where it only takes place if Texas

832
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: actually goes through with it, and it has a sunset

833
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 2: clause where the Independent Redistricting Commission comes back. Now do

834
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 2: I love this, Like you break the rules, so we're

835
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: going to break the rules. No, But it is an

836
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: authority that the governor has, and at this stage of

837
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 2: the game, I think it's really important that we exercise

838
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 2: all authority we have.

839
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: Look, I get it right, and it's and yet at

840
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: the same time, I worry about the unintended consequence of

841
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: it that it becomes all of a sudden we have

842
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: a war between.

843
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,399
Speaker 2: The States, well and people. You know, I get asked

844
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: this question a lot by folks leftist center, and they're like,

845
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: when is the military going to rise up and refuse

846
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 2: these orders? I think it's important to make clear that

847
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: none of the there are some legal challenges and questions

848
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 2: about the orders that have happened. In fact, you know,

849
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 2: just today yesterday in California lawsuit being heard about the

850
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 2: legality of Trump's efforts to deploy troops at LA. There

851
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 2: are questions about the DC deployment and home rule and

852
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 2: all these things legal technicalities, but so far, none of

853
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: the orders issued have been blatantly illegal. They've been, in

854
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 2: my opinion, lawful but awful. And so we really don't

855
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 2: want to get into a place in this country where

856
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 2: you've got you know, lance Corporal Schmucatelli or Captain Goldbeck

857
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: out there saying wow, not really, you know, we don't.

858
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 2: The reason we have such a professional and military forces

859
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 2: that we make it very clear that you follow in

860
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 2: order that's given to you as long as it's lawful.

861
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 2: You do have a duty to disobey an unlawful order.

862
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: But at this point, none of that has been none

863
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 2: of what's been ordered has been unlawful, it's just been

864
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 2: norm shattering. So I think we're at a really dangerous place.

865
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 2: If we've got you know, members of the military just

866
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 2: making decisions about who they're going to follow based on,

867
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 2: you know, who the political leader is. That's not a

868
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 2: good place for us to go either.

869
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: Look. One of the ways you got on my radar

870
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: is my friend Jamie Shore, who runs a terrific DC

871
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: Docs film festival. My listeners know I'm obsessed with these

872
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: film festivals. When when I was at Meet the Press,

873
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 1: we ran it for six years. Jamie was my partner

874
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: on that. And you were a part of a documentary

875
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 1: called Wargame back in twenty twenty four, which was about, oh,

876
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: I don't know what if there's an insurrection during a

877
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: presidential transition. Purely hypothetical, purely hypothetical. So obviously this was

878
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: done and a lot of people have done this, so

879
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: explained like I I got involved in a war game

880
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: on Taiwan, right we hosted and Meet the Press reports.

881
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: I did this whole thing about sort of what what

882
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: what war was trying to look like over Timewan, and

883
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: it was a very sobering experience, and it was you know,

884
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: we truncated it because we were trying to put it

885
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: into a thirty thirty five minutes What what was the

886
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: explain the scenario that you put out and and sort

887
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: of what was the outcome?

888
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 2: Sure, well, so in twenty twenty three, we got a

889
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 2: group of senior administration officials from the last five presidential administrations,

890
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 2: including the first Trump administration, to get together on wargame

891
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 2: out a scenario that was focused on presidential transition where

892
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 2: the losing candidate refused to concede and called upon radicalized

893
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: supporters in the active duty military and National Guard to

894
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: disobey orders and help them take power. And at the

895
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 2: time when we cracked this scenario, we were thinking.

896
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: About some people would call that a coup.

897
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, some people might call that a coup, But you know,

898
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 2: we were looking at the fact that the twenty twenty

899
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 2: election was so heavily contested and co conspiracy theoried and

900
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: in a Trump Biden potential transition, that Trump might not

901
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 2: accept a loss or a future twenty twenty eight transition,

902
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: And so we really wanted to tease out what are

903
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 2: the threats to the good order and discipline of the

904
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,240
Speaker 2: military how would the military respond if there were people

905
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 2: that were making decisions on their own? How would a

906
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 2: president weigh using the Insurrection Act or conducting domestic deployments

907
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 2: to quell civil unrest around an election. And we wanted

908
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 2: to tease all of those out with a bipartisan casto character,

909
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 2: So we had Governor Steve Bullet Fromer Governor Montana played

910
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,800
Speaker 2: our president. Senator Heidi Hidekamp was his chief of staff.

911
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 2: Senior advisor. General Wes Clark played the chairman of the

912
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 2: Joint Chiefs. Bill Crystal played sort of the Maga conspiracy

913
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:10,280
Speaker 2: theorists head, and then we had a bunch of veterans

914
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 2: and experts on extremists playing the actual sort of proud

915
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 2: boys oathkeepers type folks, and the whole thing was a

916
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 2: subject of this documentary. They actually brought in this incredible team.

917
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: Jesse Mass and Tony Gerber were our co directors. They

918
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 2: built these sets for us, so like a white house

919
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 2: situation room, white house briefing room in a hotel that

920
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 2: January sixth insurrectionists had actually stayed at during the actual insurrection,

921
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 2: And we shot the whole thing on January sixth, twenty

922
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 2: twenty three, and one of the biggest lessons coming out

923
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 2: of this was that, actually, while it's important for leaders

924
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 2: at the national level to understand the difference between Title

925
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 2: ten and Title thirty two and the various authorities the

926
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 2: president has to federalize the guard, it actually was going

927
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: to be state and local leaders, governors, states, attorneys general,

928
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 2: et cetera, and in generals of state national guards that

929
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 2: we're going to be the real, you know, tip of

930
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 2: the spear if this were to occur. And why is

931
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: that because you know that they are the ones who

932
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 2: typically will be requesting federal help. So, you know, a governor,

933
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 2: there's a there's a riot in LA, the governor needs assistants,

934
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 2: you know, the mayors. The mayor calls the governor, the

935
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 2: governor calls the president. The president's sense assistance. That's typically

936
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 2: how it works well in a situation where the president

937
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,760
Speaker 2: wants to exert authority uh over a state or a city,

938
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 2: they're going to be the ones having to coordinate on

939
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 2: the ground to ensure that things don't escalate, the thing

940
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 2: that people are safe, that both the troops and civilians

941
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 2: are safe and are going to have to be responding

942
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 2: to a political crisis. Basically, caused by the president of

943
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 2: the United States, so not the wargame. The film wargame

944
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,720
Speaker 2: examines that sort of federal problem, the election related problem.

945
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 2: The following year, we went out and did a series

946
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 2: of state level exercises actually with local electeds, members of

947
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 2: the press, an active groups to help them start thinking

948
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 2: about in a second Trump administration, what might occur in

949
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,720
Speaker 2: your city or state. And the scenario we actually envisioned

950
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 2: for them and had them play out was second Trump

951
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 2: administration conducts very aggressive interior immigration enforcement, which leads to protests,

952
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 2: which leads to militarization. And you know that's like one

953
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 2: of the worst I told you so is like we

954
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 2: were hoping that this was hyperbolic in inflammatory. But since

955
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 2: then we've conducted that similar exercise with a number of

956
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 2: different governors and mayor's offices around the country and help

957
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 2: them think through you know, what happens if this happens here.

958
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 1: You know, I thought you were going to say you

959
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 1: used the succession scenario where there's arson at the vote

960
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: counting Where there was arson at the in Wisconsin, in

961
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 1: Milwaukee at the vote counting center, is how they did it,

962
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, votes were just gone, that's right,

963
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: and they could not figure out who won Wisconsin.

964
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 2: I mean there is I think we should take this

965
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,359
Speaker 2: president in this administration at their word. There has been

966
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 2: a lot of things said about how elections should or

967
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 2: shouldn't be conducted in this country. There is a sustained

968
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 2: effort right now to change the rules of ballot received

969
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 2: deadlines across the country, which disproportionately actually impact vets and

970
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: military family members who either vote absentee or vote from abroad,

971
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 2: or disabled veterans who vote by mail. There's just a

972
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,760
Speaker 2: million fires on every front, and it is really nuts

973
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 2: to me how much of a target the administration has

974
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 2: painted directly on the backs of vets and military families.

975
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you put it that way, when you

976
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: say put a target on them.

977
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 2: Explain, well, I mean, we look at these attacks on voting.

978
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 2: We're seeing you know that the VA that it's always

979
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 2: been a Republican prerogative to privatize the VA. The VA

980
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 2: is the largest public healthcare system in the country and

981
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 2: one of the most popular forms of healthcare. There are

982
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, there's been a lot of

983
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 2: negative things about the VA over the years, but in

984
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 2: the last twenty years, VA healthcare has dramatically improved and

985
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:07,959
Speaker 2: expanded to include more people who weren't previously eligible, and

986
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:12,240
Speaker 2: the entire VA. The attack on the VA, firing thirty

987
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 2: thousand workers, removing the collective bargaining rights of doctors and

988
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,760
Speaker 2: nurses is all an effort to dismantle this public system,

989
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 2: to privatize healthcare, which is demonstrably worse for veterans and

990
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,359
Speaker 2: more expensive to the American tax payer. So I think

991
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 2: there is this perception that you know, all Vets are maga,

992
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 2: and you know they are going to follow blindly whatever

993
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 2: Trump does. But whether it's the attacks on the BA,

994
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 2: the attacks on voting, the misuse of the military domestically,

995
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 2: or the firing of federal workers thirty percent of the

996
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 2: federal workforce are Vets, all of these things I think

997
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 2: are going to have a real electoral impact on Trump

998
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 2: as long as we have a free and fair election

999
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty six.

1000
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 1: No, it's always been interesting. You know, Veterans are the

1001
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: one constituency that arguably leaned more Republican during the during

1002
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: when the party was sort of Bush and Romney. Unless

1003
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 1: there has been this and I've noticed it, right, there's

1004
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: there really is a libertarian streak among veterans more so

1005
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: than most, and a sort of is a discomfort with

1006
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: aggressive government right, no matter which where it concentrated power

1007
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 1: in any direction.

1008
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually kind of financed to have this joke

1009
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,840
Speaker 2: with my my buddies and the Marines who were self

1010
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 2: identified libertarians. You know, you're not supposed to talk politics,

1011
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:36,720
Speaker 2: but you're in a you're on in the field for.

1012
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,760
Speaker 1: You know, we're humans. Yeah, yeah, you're humans.

1013
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not going to affect whether or not you

1014
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 2: laid on covering fire for your buddy. You're just talking.

1015
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 2: But yeah, these buddies who are self identified libertarians who

1016
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 2: would say, yeah, like I'm a libertarian because I don't

1017
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 2: want the man to come in and take something like, Bro,

1018
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 2: you're wearing a US government uniform, you are the man.

1019
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 2: But I think that there's just a a sense, you know,

1020
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 2: if you've deployed to a place where you've seen authoritarian

1021
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 2: power or a lack of power, or just abuse and

1022
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 2: misuse of power, it does stick with you and you

1023
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 2: you want to have the ability to make decisions for

1024
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 2: yourself that are best for you and your family. I

1025
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 2: think that's a very human instinct. We're so tribalized now

1026
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 2: in America. But if we could get back to in

1027
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 2: some way, shape or form, and it might be a

1028
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 2: really rough transition to a place where we can respect

1029
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 2: each other and our ability to do those things, I

1030
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 2: think that would be very healthy for our democracy.

1031
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: Is there any specific ways, you know, I always say

1032
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: it's like after Trump, there's I think there needs to

1033
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: be you know, there are a bunch of things we

1034
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 1: assume norms would handle and it turns out no, you're

1035
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: going to have to you know, look, most people aren't

1036
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 1: going to commit murder, but if you didn't have laws

1037
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: that outlawed it, then you'd have a problem, you know,

1038
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: keeping people from murdering people. Are there any sort of

1039
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 1: new guard rails, new laws that should be erected around

1040
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: sort of the around the idea of preventing the politicizing

1041
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 1: of the military, something that's you know right now it frankly,

1042
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: it feels more norms that had done that in the past,

1043
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: or maybe it's you know, protocols. But do we need

1044
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: something stronger?

1045
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that some of the things

1046
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 2: that we let slide over the last couple of decades.

1047
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 2: A civilian Secretary of Defense, someone who is not coming.

1048
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 1: From the God. How many times are we passing these waivers?

1049
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you drives me to Look. I respect

1050
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 1: General Madis, and I respect General Portraeus and all the

1051
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 1: different you know, all the times that we've quote unquote

1052
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: done waivers. But the whole point of this, right, you know,

1053
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 1: I think we did it with General Austin too. I

1054
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 1: mean it's just like this has been left and right,

1055
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 1: and you're like, are you really telling me there's no

1056
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 1: civilian that can.

1057
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 2: Do this, this giant bureaucracy the very offensively. And I

1058
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 2: feel the same way about the VA actually, like I

1059
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:08,439
Speaker 2: don't need a veteran to run the VA. I need

1060
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 2: someone who's run a major healthcare system before.

1061
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 1: Or Look, that's why I thought it was inspired when

1062
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:16,479
Speaker 1: Dennis McDonald was over there, because he actually was somebody

1063
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 1: who understood how government worked, right, And so ultimately, what

1064
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: you really need is somebody that knows where the red

1065
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 1: tape sticks and where it doesn't, right, Like that's an asset.

1066
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's great to have a veteran to be

1067
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: there to stick with vetteran, but we have a Veterans

1068
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: Affairs for a reason, so you would think anybody in

1069
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: charge of it is going to be that. So it

1070
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 1: doesn't I agree with it doesn't necessarily you need it.

1071
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 1: Somebody that knows how to knows how to protect the VA.

1072
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I want somebody who is a being counter and

1073
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 2: holds people accountable. Is a system of systems thinker, you know.

1074
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 2: I think there's a couple other things that are so big,

1075
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:56,919
Speaker 2: I don't know how we accomplish them, but getting money

1076
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 2: out of politics, I mean, the fact that we can

1077
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 2: have so much extreme dark money in our politics just

1078
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 2: incentivizes the fact that we have these really polarizing figures

1079
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 2: on both sides of the aisle that you know, I

1080
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 2: think drives cynicism and people tune out, and then you

1081
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 2: don't have people participating, and then you have even more

1082
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 2: extreme people who win the next round. So that, to

1083
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 2: me is one of the biggest horrors that's occurred in

1084
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 2: our democracy over the last few decades, is the fact

1085
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 2: that we can just have unlimited sums dumped into these elections.

1086
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 2: It's a self licking ice cream cone and it's a business,

1087
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 2: but it's a business that's bad.

1088
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: For America, and that there's a lot of people that

1089
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 1: prop it off of it. Yeah, and it ain't the voters,

1090
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:44,439
Speaker 1: that's for sure.

1091
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 2: I'll give you my last most extreme idea, which I

1092
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 2: didn't come up with on my own, but I think

1093
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 2: is really interesting, which is to expand the House significantly

1094
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 2: and abolish the US Senate.

1095
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: You know, oh interesting. I'm for doubling. I've been obsessed

1096
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 1: with this uncapping the house. So I think the founder's

1097
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 1: intent we need to double the size of the house

1098
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 1: if we had eight hundred and you know, my proposal

1099
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: would make it that no, every you know, congressional districts

1100
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: have to can't be any bigger than zero point zero

1101
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 1: zero zero one percent of the population, which would be

1102
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: one right now, one perform on one thousand.

1103
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 2: Rather, it means you would actually have to be responsive

1104
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 2: to your constituency.

1105
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 1: You might know you're member of Congress because they would

1106
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 1: actually be community.

1107
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 2: That's great potentially, So I guess I'll meet you halfway.

1108
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 2: We can keep the Senate if we can double the

1109
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:30,439
Speaker 2: size of a house.

1110
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 1: I got a friend of mine who's the head of

1111
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 1: the George Washington Library. She's got a radical proposal that

1112
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 1: would be so like that that you would sort of

1113
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: expand the Senate to okay, so that the big states

1114
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 1: might get five senators and the mid sized states four,

1115
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 1: and then the next three and then everybody else too,

1116
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:52,959
Speaker 1: so that it would still be but that you would

1117
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: at least the California, Texas, Florida, New York ought to

1118
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 1: have a little more say than Wyoming and Delaware.

1119
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 2: I mean, and it's like totally unrepresentative as it is

1120
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 2: right now. So if we could get it anywhere closer

1121
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 2: to being more representative of our population and what people

1122
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 2: actually think in this country, I think that would be

1123
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 2: a good thing, all.

1124
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 1: Right, gennessa goback. This was a great conversation. I appreciate it.

1125
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: And look, I just I do I think the I

1126
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 1: think we need as the country desperately needs a pastor

1127
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 1: for patriotism, I call it, and I think there the

1128
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: military potentially is the best place to find that person.

1129
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with you more and I just really

1130
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 2: appreciate you having me on. We're going to do another

1131
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 2: tabletop next early next year around the twenty six elections,

1132
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 2: and what might happen with the military.

1133
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 1: I'd love to be an observer or whatever. County's okay,

1134
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 1: I'll follow up, all right, Vanessa, thanks again