1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:28,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. Today we're bringing you an 2 00:00:28,276 --> 00:00:31,476 Speaker 1: episode of A Slight Change of Plans, hosted by my friend, 3 00:00:31,556 --> 00:00:34,956 Speaker 1: doctor Maya Shankar. Maya's a behavioral scientist and a former 4 00:00:34,996 --> 00:00:37,796 Speaker 1: student of mine. In this episode, Maya sits down with 5 00:00:37,876 --> 00:00:41,276 Speaker 1: best selling author and popular podcaster Mel Robbins to talk 6 00:00:41,316 --> 00:00:44,356 Speaker 1: about letting go of perfectionism and people pleasing, and how 7 00:00:44,356 --> 00:00:47,356 Speaker 1: to cope when you lose control of a situation. If 8 00:00:47,356 --> 00:00:49,436 Speaker 1: you enjoy this, you should listen to more episodes of 9 00:00:49,436 --> 00:00:51,356 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get your. 10 00:00:51,276 --> 00:01:09,756 Speaker 2: Podcasts Heyl Changers. 11 00:01:09,956 --> 00:01:12,916 Speaker 3: Just a heads up, there's a brief mention of sexual 12 00:01:12,956 --> 00:01:15,996 Speaker 3: assault in this episode at the five minute mark. It's 13 00:01:16,036 --> 00:01:18,636 Speaker 3: not explicit, but if you want to skip over that minute, 14 00:01:18,756 --> 00:01:20,236 Speaker 3: please do and take care. 15 00:01:22,396 --> 00:01:27,396 Speaker 4: I actually thought that I would feel safe if everybody 16 00:01:27,516 --> 00:01:33,476 Speaker 4: around me was okay, that if everybody around me was happy, 17 00:01:34,076 --> 00:01:38,556 Speaker 4: if everybody around me was not disappointed, if everybody around 18 00:01:38,596 --> 00:01:43,316 Speaker 4: me liked me or thought I was cool, then I 19 00:01:43,356 --> 00:01:44,116 Speaker 4: would be okay. 20 00:01:45,276 --> 00:01:48,876 Speaker 3: Mel Robbins is a best selling author and podcast host. 21 00:01:49,676 --> 00:01:52,956 Speaker 4: And the problem with that is that the one thing 22 00:01:53,076 --> 00:01:57,116 Speaker 4: you can't control in life is other people, and so 23 00:01:57,276 --> 00:02:01,516 Speaker 4: to hand your safety and sense of self over to 24 00:02:01,636 --> 00:02:05,236 Speaker 4: other people's moods and thoughts and expectations of you means 25 00:02:05,276 --> 00:02:09,476 Speaker 4: you will forever in your entire life, always feel as 26 00:02:09,516 --> 00:02:12,396 Speaker 4: though you're not in control of what's happening. 27 00:02:13,036 --> 00:02:13,996 Speaker 2: On today's show. 28 00:02:14,396 --> 00:02:19,516 Speaker 3: To all my people, pleasers, control freaks, perfectionists, and micromanagers, 29 00:02:19,996 --> 00:02:24,956 Speaker 3: we're learning to let it all go. I'm Maya Schunker, 30 00:02:25,236 --> 00:02:28,716 Speaker 3: a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a 31 00:02:28,716 --> 00:02:31,436 Speaker 3: slight change of plans, a show about who we are 32 00:02:31,636 --> 00:02:38,916 Speaker 3: and who we become in the face of a big change. 33 00:02:43,516 --> 00:02:46,596 Speaker 3: If you've ever found yourself bending over backwards to meet 34 00:02:46,636 --> 00:02:51,436 Speaker 3: other people's expectations or trying to control their emotions and behaviors, 35 00:02:51,956 --> 00:02:56,276 Speaker 3: I promise that you are not alone. Mel Robin's, host 36 00:02:56,356 --> 00:02:59,996 Speaker 3: of the wildly popular The Mel Robins podcast, has a 37 00:03:00,036 --> 00:03:03,476 Speaker 3: new book out called The Let Them Theory. It's all 38 00:03:03,516 --> 00:03:06,436 Speaker 3: about how to stop giving other people so much power 39 00:03:06,956 --> 00:03:09,636 Speaker 3: and to let go of our need to control them. 40 00:03:10,236 --> 00:03:13,556 Speaker 3: To better understand her interest in this philosophy, I wanted 41 00:03:13,556 --> 00:03:17,636 Speaker 3: to know more about Mel's relationship with control. What kind 42 00:03:17,676 --> 00:03:21,796 Speaker 3: of messages did you feel that you were absorbing as 43 00:03:21,796 --> 00:03:24,756 Speaker 3: a child, about what it meant to live a good life, 44 00:03:25,076 --> 00:03:26,436 Speaker 3: to live at a happy life. 45 00:03:27,796 --> 00:03:31,156 Speaker 4: You know, this is a difficult question for me to answer. 46 00:03:31,676 --> 00:03:34,436 Speaker 4: I don't have a lot of memories from my childhood, 47 00:03:35,516 --> 00:03:41,556 Speaker 4: and I know why, and the reason why is because 48 00:03:41,996 --> 00:03:44,956 Speaker 4: I basically kind of lived in a constant state of 49 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:48,036 Speaker 4: being on edge or being in fight or flight, which 50 00:03:48,156 --> 00:03:52,436 Speaker 4: is very common if you have any past trauma, or 51 00:03:52,516 --> 00:03:56,356 Speaker 4: if you have had any adverse childhood experiences, or if 52 00:03:56,436 --> 00:03:59,596 Speaker 4: you just live in a household where the moods of 53 00:03:59,596 --> 00:04:02,396 Speaker 4: the adults are chaotic, or there are things going on 54 00:04:02,756 --> 00:04:05,276 Speaker 4: that you shouldn't have to deal with as a child. 55 00:04:05,596 --> 00:04:08,836 Speaker 4: But what I would say is that when I think 56 00:04:08,836 --> 00:04:13,676 Speaker 4: about my childhood and very happy times, my mom and 57 00:04:13,716 --> 00:04:16,116 Speaker 4: I would always go to the farmer's market and all 58 00:04:16,196 --> 00:04:20,356 Speaker 4: the farmers would be at their various stalls. My mom 59 00:04:20,876 --> 00:04:25,836 Speaker 4: knew every single person there. She knew whether they had 60 00:04:25,916 --> 00:04:28,436 Speaker 4: kids or grandkids, she knew the name of the dogs. 61 00:04:28,756 --> 00:04:31,916 Speaker 4: As she would be picking up the radishes or squeezing 62 00:04:31,956 --> 00:04:34,956 Speaker 4: the peaches, they'd be chatting up a storm about the 63 00:04:34,956 --> 00:04:38,236 Speaker 4: weather or the crops, or how their kid is doing. 64 00:04:39,076 --> 00:04:43,156 Speaker 4: And it really made an impression on me. And so 65 00:04:43,436 --> 00:04:45,476 Speaker 4: I would say, a good life in my mind is 66 00:04:45,516 --> 00:04:49,156 Speaker 4: one where you are living your life in relation to 67 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:52,396 Speaker 4: other people, and you are showing up in a way 68 00:04:52,516 --> 00:04:55,396 Speaker 4: where you're interested in them and their well being and 69 00:04:55,476 --> 00:04:56,116 Speaker 4: what they're doing. 70 00:04:56,876 --> 00:05:00,596 Speaker 3: It's so interesting because you said living a good life 71 00:05:00,636 --> 00:05:02,876 Speaker 3: is about living in relation to others, and I can 72 00:05:02,916 --> 00:05:05,316 Speaker 3: see that that can be a double edged sword. You 73 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:08,236 Speaker 3: might become beholden to the views of others and their 74 00:05:08,236 --> 00:05:11,316 Speaker 3: impression of you. I am curious to know you mentioned 75 00:05:11,316 --> 00:05:13,716 Speaker 3: that you were kind of in a constant state of 76 00:05:14,436 --> 00:05:19,756 Speaker 3: being on edge, probably hypervigilant. Tell me more about what 77 00:05:19,836 --> 00:05:23,076 Speaker 3: your relationship with control was like as it pertained to 78 00:05:23,796 --> 00:05:26,436 Speaker 3: trying to control your environment and the people in it. 79 00:05:27,556 --> 00:05:30,636 Speaker 4: For me as a young kid, it was a lot 80 00:05:30,716 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 4: around wondering what mood certain people were going to be 81 00:05:33,836 --> 00:05:38,356 Speaker 4: in in the household, and this sense that I have 82 00:05:38,476 --> 00:05:42,836 Speaker 4: to behave a certain way in order to make sure 83 00:05:43,116 --> 00:05:46,796 Speaker 4: that things are peaceful or people are happy, or nobody's 84 00:05:46,796 --> 00:05:50,116 Speaker 4: mad at me. Like it was just this constant state 85 00:05:50,236 --> 00:05:54,916 Speaker 4: of something's wrong, I'm about to get in trouble, and the. 86 00:05:56,396 --> 00:05:57,196 Speaker 5: You know, I like. 87 00:05:57,396 --> 00:05:59,236 Speaker 4: The thing that I should say is that I had 88 00:05:59,236 --> 00:06:01,316 Speaker 4: this incident when I was in the fourth grade where 89 00:06:01,396 --> 00:06:03,636 Speaker 4: I woke up in the middle of the night at 90 00:06:03,636 --> 00:06:05,916 Speaker 4: a big family ski trip and there was an older 91 00:06:05,996 --> 00:06:08,996 Speaker 4: kid on top of me, and you know, they were 92 00:06:08,996 --> 00:06:12,996 Speaker 4: doing something very inappropriate, and I possmed. I just froze 93 00:06:13,076 --> 00:06:15,276 Speaker 4: and rolled over and I don't even remember how it 94 00:06:15,396 --> 00:06:18,596 Speaker 4: ended because I left my body. And I think from 95 00:06:18,596 --> 00:06:22,716 Speaker 4: that point forward, I had this intense sense in my 96 00:06:22,796 --> 00:06:27,396 Speaker 4: body that something was terribly wrong, and I didn't tell anybody. 97 00:06:27,956 --> 00:06:31,556 Speaker 4: And I didn't tell anybody because as an eight year old, 98 00:06:31,756 --> 00:06:34,476 Speaker 4: I thought somehow I had done something wrong, which meant 99 00:06:34,556 --> 00:06:37,196 Speaker 4: I was going to get in trouble. And that core 100 00:06:37,316 --> 00:06:41,236 Speaker 4: experience I did something wrong and waking up every morning 101 00:06:41,356 --> 00:06:45,396 Speaker 4: feeling like something bad has happened is what haunted me 102 00:06:46,196 --> 00:06:50,596 Speaker 4: all the way into my thirties because I suppressed the experience. 103 00:06:51,476 --> 00:06:56,836 Speaker 4: And so to your question, the way that control played 104 00:06:56,876 --> 00:07:01,236 Speaker 4: out for me is I outsourced it. I actually thought 105 00:07:01,276 --> 00:07:07,316 Speaker 4: that I would feel safe if everybody around me was okay, 106 00:07:08,396 --> 00:07:13,036 Speaker 4: that if everybody around me was happy, if everybody around 107 00:07:13,076 --> 00:07:16,916 Speaker 4: me was not disappointed, if everybody around me liked me 108 00:07:17,116 --> 00:07:21,756 Speaker 4: or thought I was cool, then I would be okay. 109 00:07:22,516 --> 00:07:26,196 Speaker 4: And the problem with that, when we unpack it, is 110 00:07:26,236 --> 00:07:31,556 Speaker 4: that that is the one thing and the one strategy 111 00:07:31,676 --> 00:07:35,276 Speaker 4: that actually will never put you in control of anything, 112 00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:38,996 Speaker 4: because the one thing you can't control in life is 113 00:07:39,076 --> 00:07:41,716 Speaker 4: other people. You can't control what they think, what they do, 114 00:07:41,796 --> 00:07:44,396 Speaker 4: how they feel, what they expect of you, the lies 115 00:07:44,436 --> 00:07:47,916 Speaker 4: they might tell, the disappointment they might You can't control 116 00:07:48,116 --> 00:07:51,996 Speaker 4: any of that. And so to hand your safety and 117 00:07:52,076 --> 00:07:56,556 Speaker 4: sense of self over to other people's moods and thoughts 118 00:07:56,836 --> 00:07:59,916 Speaker 4: and expectations of you means you will, forever, in your 119 00:08:00,156 --> 00:08:04,436 Speaker 4: entire life, always feel as though you're not in control 120 00:08:04,476 --> 00:08:05,276 Speaker 4: of what's happening. 121 00:08:05,636 --> 00:08:06,716 Speaker 5: Yeah. 122 00:08:06,836 --> 00:08:09,116 Speaker 3: What is so interesting to me, though, is that you 123 00:08:09,716 --> 00:08:12,636 Speaker 3: place an even greater burden on yourself because you were 124 00:08:12,676 --> 00:08:17,396 Speaker 3: both giving power to others while seating that their behaviors 125 00:08:17,436 --> 00:08:21,636 Speaker 3: were a direct function of you and your behaviors. What 126 00:08:21,756 --> 00:08:25,996 Speaker 3: an enormous weight to carry as a young child. And 127 00:08:26,116 --> 00:08:28,316 Speaker 3: I feel like what's coming to mind for me is 128 00:08:28,756 --> 00:08:32,756 Speaker 3: the illusion of control, where we overestimate the degree to 129 00:08:32,796 --> 00:08:35,596 Speaker 3: which we determine outcomes in our lives. But what's really 130 00:08:35,596 --> 00:08:38,076 Speaker 3: interesting is that they study people and they found that 131 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:42,796 Speaker 3: there's a continuum here where you can move from either 132 00:08:42,836 --> 00:08:46,396 Speaker 3: an internal locus of control to an external locus of control, 133 00:08:46,996 --> 00:08:50,036 Speaker 3: and people with an external locus of control are much 134 00:08:50,076 --> 00:08:53,716 Speaker 3: more comfortable with uncertainty and ambiguity and things not quite 135 00:08:53,716 --> 00:08:57,356 Speaker 3: going to plan because they understand that exogenous factors the 136 00:08:57,396 --> 00:09:01,156 Speaker 3: external world actually plays a really big role in dictating 137 00:09:01,156 --> 00:09:04,476 Speaker 3: our lives than people who are in the internal locus 138 00:09:04,516 --> 00:09:08,516 Speaker 3: of control. We ascribe events to our own doing, so 139 00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:11,476 Speaker 3: our success us our ours, and our failures are ours 140 00:09:11,636 --> 00:09:14,996 Speaker 3: and the behaviors of others are ours. Right, and a 141 00:09:15,036 --> 00:09:19,196 Speaker 3: strong internal locus of control is associated with greater happiness 142 00:09:19,196 --> 00:09:23,636 Speaker 3: and greater well being and greater purpose overall, except that 143 00:09:23,716 --> 00:09:26,876 Speaker 3: when things don't go according to plan, we're much more 144 00:09:26,956 --> 00:09:30,436 Speaker 3: likely to self blame. We're much more likely to self 145 00:09:30,436 --> 00:09:35,356 Speaker 3: break because we are the only explanation for why things 146 00:09:35,356 --> 00:09:38,796 Speaker 3: didn't go well. And so what I'm hearing is that 147 00:09:38,916 --> 00:09:44,236 Speaker 3: young Mele developed a really powerful internal locus of control 148 00:09:44,316 --> 00:09:46,276 Speaker 3: where everything fell back on you. 149 00:09:47,036 --> 00:09:47,676 Speaker 2: That's a lot. 150 00:09:48,156 --> 00:09:48,836 Speaker 5: It is a lot. 151 00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:51,876 Speaker 3: So you have this relationship with control when you're a child, 152 00:09:51,996 --> 00:09:55,596 Speaker 3: and then as an adult, you run up against the 153 00:09:55,756 --> 00:09:59,996 Speaker 3: limits of your ability to maintain that equanimity in your 154 00:10:00,076 --> 00:10:03,396 Speaker 3: environment when you and your family hit rock bottom, right, 155 00:10:03,436 --> 00:10:06,916 Speaker 3: your husband's business crashes as a result, of the Great Recession. 156 00:10:07,516 --> 00:10:08,676 Speaker 5: Oh and stupidity. 157 00:10:08,756 --> 00:10:11,716 Speaker 4: I mean, like there's a lot of stupid like myself included, 158 00:10:11,756 --> 00:10:13,596 Speaker 4: Like I'm not going to blame it out there, Like 159 00:10:13,636 --> 00:10:16,116 Speaker 4: there are some things that we did that were just dumb. 160 00:10:16,196 --> 00:10:18,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, I should have known. You're an internal locus of control. Gal. 161 00:10:18,756 --> 00:10:21,156 Speaker 2: Of course you're going to make sure that you take accountability. 162 00:10:21,316 --> 00:10:24,956 Speaker 2: I love this. You're eight hundred thousand dollars in debt 163 00:10:25,356 --> 00:10:26,836 Speaker 2: at this point. You were in your. 164 00:10:26,676 --> 00:10:30,556 Speaker 3: Early forty forty one yep, trying to raise three kids. 165 00:10:31,156 --> 00:10:34,756 Speaker 3: Bring me back to that moment and what that might 166 00:10:34,756 --> 00:10:37,196 Speaker 3: have taught you or not taught you about kind of 167 00:10:37,276 --> 00:10:39,236 Speaker 3: the limits of your control or how you might want 168 00:10:39,236 --> 00:10:40,556 Speaker 3: to rethink that relationship. 169 00:10:41,276 --> 00:10:42,916 Speaker 4: Oh my god, there's so much that it taught me. 170 00:10:43,356 --> 00:10:46,036 Speaker 4: You know, when you're in a rock bottom moment, the 171 00:10:46,076 --> 00:10:48,636 Speaker 4: worst thing somebody can say to you is you're going 172 00:10:48,716 --> 00:10:50,636 Speaker 4: to look back on this as a blessing, Like you 173 00:10:50,676 --> 00:10:53,676 Speaker 4: literally want to punch people in the face. No, I 174 00:10:53,716 --> 00:10:56,676 Speaker 4: was forty one, and you know, look, I'm a very 175 00:10:56,716 --> 00:11:00,236 Speaker 4: ambitious person, and never in my life had I made 176 00:11:00,276 --> 00:11:02,956 Speaker 4: a vision board where I had cut out images that 177 00:11:03,036 --> 00:11:10,756 Speaker 4: said bankruptcy, alcoholism, million dollars in debt, foreclosure, divorce. That 178 00:11:10,876 --> 00:11:14,036 Speaker 4: was not part of the plan. And what's interesting is 179 00:11:14,236 --> 00:11:18,396 Speaker 4: we can talk reinvention and pivots and everything all we want, 180 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:25,756 Speaker 4: right but when it's happening to you, it's a different 181 00:11:25,916 --> 00:11:31,916 Speaker 4: experience because what happens is your emotions takeover and you 182 00:11:32,036 --> 00:11:34,556 Speaker 4: start to tell yourself a story that you're never going 183 00:11:34,596 --> 00:11:35,916 Speaker 4: to get out of this. And for me, what that 184 00:11:35,996 --> 00:11:38,676 Speaker 4: meant is, I lost my job. We were eight hundred 185 00:11:38,716 --> 00:11:42,276 Speaker 4: thousand dollars in debt because we were complete freaking idiots 186 00:11:43,556 --> 00:11:46,276 Speaker 4: by cashing out our life savings and shoving it into 187 00:11:46,316 --> 00:11:49,556 Speaker 4: his business. After one location of a pizza restaurant went okay, 188 00:11:50,436 --> 00:11:52,436 Speaker 4: and then all of a sudden, you know, two thousand 189 00:11:52,476 --> 00:11:55,756 Speaker 4: and seven hits two thousand and eight, the recession hits 190 00:11:55,796 --> 00:11:57,036 Speaker 4: our houses upside down. 191 00:11:57,156 --> 00:11:58,116 Speaker 5: We have leans on it. 192 00:11:58,196 --> 00:12:01,876 Speaker 4: We've cashed out everything we own. I've got three kids 193 00:12:01,956 --> 00:12:04,316 Speaker 4: under the age of ten. Friends and family have invested 194 00:12:04,356 --> 00:12:08,316 Speaker 4: in this business, and the bills are starting to pile 195 00:12:08,436 --> 00:12:11,916 Speaker 4: up on the counter, and I'm pulling a kid out 196 00:12:11,916 --> 00:12:13,836 Speaker 4: of town soccer because we can't afford one hundred and 197 00:12:13,876 --> 00:12:18,676 Speaker 4: twenty five dollars. And I'm having trouble some weeks because 198 00:12:18,756 --> 00:12:20,196 Speaker 4: Chris is not getting paid and I don't have a 199 00:12:20,316 --> 00:12:24,476 Speaker 4: job putting gas in the car tank. Financial stress is 200 00:12:25,356 --> 00:12:29,716 Speaker 4: crushing and you can't escape itah, and there's a lot 201 00:12:29,716 --> 00:12:34,116 Speaker 4: of shame around it. And so I drank myself into 202 00:12:34,116 --> 00:12:38,396 Speaker 4: the ground. I became very angry and avoidant. I started 203 00:12:38,396 --> 00:12:42,396 Speaker 4: blaming everything on my husband, and I became paralyzed. I 204 00:12:42,476 --> 00:12:44,916 Speaker 4: was in like a frozen trauma response, which is the 205 00:12:44,956 --> 00:12:46,516 Speaker 4: exact same thing that happened to me when I was 206 00:12:46,556 --> 00:12:50,076 Speaker 4: eight years old. And because I felt like I couldn't 207 00:12:50,076 --> 00:12:53,036 Speaker 4: control everything that was happening, I just ran away from it. 208 00:12:53,396 --> 00:12:56,076 Speaker 4: I got drunk. I yelled at my husband. I became 209 00:12:56,116 --> 00:12:58,796 Speaker 4: a person. I didn't recognize the kids were missing the bus. 210 00:12:59,716 --> 00:13:03,836 Speaker 4: I couldn't or I didn't think I could control the 211 00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:09,596 Speaker 4: demise that was looming. But I could control of it. 212 00:13:10,436 --> 00:13:14,916 Speaker 4: I could hit the snooze button six times. I could 213 00:13:15,236 --> 00:13:20,116 Speaker 4: numb myself at night, I could avoid the bills. Because 214 00:13:20,116 --> 00:13:25,116 Speaker 4: avoidance is a major form of control, anger is a 215 00:13:25,196 --> 00:13:30,196 Speaker 4: major form of controlled And so my control was still there, 216 00:13:30,356 --> 00:13:33,356 Speaker 4: it was just being aimed at the wrong things. 217 00:13:33,556 --> 00:13:36,476 Speaker 3: Yeah, So that leads us to the need for let 218 00:13:36,516 --> 00:13:39,276 Speaker 3: them bring me back to the moment when you were 219 00:13:39,276 --> 00:13:42,276 Speaker 3: first exposed to it. Obviously it's rooted in ancient wisdom, 220 00:13:42,276 --> 00:13:44,956 Speaker 3: but you know, I hear wise things all the time, 221 00:13:45,036 --> 00:13:46,476 Speaker 3: and they kind of can just go in one year 222 00:13:46,516 --> 00:13:48,476 Speaker 3: and out the other, Like, I want to know what 223 00:13:48,516 --> 00:13:51,316 Speaker 3: made it stick for you in that moment in your life. 224 00:13:51,996 --> 00:13:55,796 Speaker 4: I've been trying to be less controlling my whole life. 225 00:13:55,916 --> 00:13:59,556 Speaker 4: I've tried to be stoic. I have tried to be 226 00:13:59,556 --> 00:14:04,396 Speaker 4: more Buddhist. I have tried to manage my response. And 227 00:14:04,436 --> 00:14:08,436 Speaker 4: it's one thing when you're sharing ideas, it's a whole 228 00:14:08,476 --> 00:14:13,276 Speaker 4: other thing. And the teacher shows up and the student 229 00:14:13,396 --> 00:14:18,516 Speaker 4: is ready. It's the difference between concept and the moment 230 00:14:19,556 --> 00:14:25,076 Speaker 4: when that concept hits you like a freaking sledgeing exactly. 231 00:14:25,516 --> 00:14:28,076 Speaker 4: And so I was at the high school problem with 232 00:14:28,116 --> 00:14:33,316 Speaker 4: my son. I was being a super micromanagy mom really annoying. 233 00:14:33,396 --> 00:14:35,476 Speaker 4: If you've ever been in a situation where you're all 234 00:14:35,516 --> 00:14:37,356 Speaker 4: stressed and the words are coming out of your mouth 235 00:14:37,356 --> 00:14:38,956 Speaker 4: and you wish you could shove them back in, that 236 00:14:39,076 --> 00:14:41,756 Speaker 4: was me. So I was just micromanaging him. You know, 237 00:14:41,796 --> 00:14:43,156 Speaker 4: you got a tux and let me try the thing, 238 00:14:43,196 --> 00:14:45,836 Speaker 4: and shoving the flowers at him. Even though his date 239 00:14:45,876 --> 00:14:48,396 Speaker 4: doesn't want a corsage. And now it's starting to rain, 240 00:14:48,476 --> 00:14:50,156 Speaker 4: and I'm like, you can't get your shoes wet and 241 00:14:50,236 --> 00:14:52,076 Speaker 4: her hair is going to get ruined, and you can't 242 00:14:52,116 --> 00:14:54,076 Speaker 4: go to the taco stand before dinner because then your 243 00:14:54,076 --> 00:14:56,356 Speaker 4: tuxedo is going to be wet. And my daughter was 244 00:14:56,396 --> 00:15:01,676 Speaker 4: home and she reaches out and grabs my bicep and 245 00:15:01,716 --> 00:15:05,436 Speaker 4: she's like, you're being annoying. If she doesn't want flowers, letter, 246 00:15:05,676 --> 00:15:07,556 Speaker 4: if it's going to ruin his shoes, let them. If 247 00:15:07,596 --> 00:15:09,516 Speaker 4: he wants to get soaking wet, let other if she's 248 00:15:09,516 --> 00:15:11,356 Speaker 4: gonna ruin her hair, letter And it was just like this, 249 00:15:11,516 --> 00:15:13,796 Speaker 4: let them, let them, let them. It's their problem, not 250 00:15:13,956 --> 00:15:17,396 Speaker 4: yours for crying out loud. Let them do what they 251 00:15:17,516 --> 00:15:20,396 Speaker 4: want to do. And there was just something about the 252 00:15:20,476 --> 00:15:24,116 Speaker 4: nails of my biceps and the cringe in her voice 253 00:15:24,196 --> 00:15:28,116 Speaker 4: and the cascade of the let let let that my 254 00:15:28,236 --> 00:15:30,436 Speaker 4: shoulders has dropped, and I just kind of had this 255 00:15:30,716 --> 00:15:34,756 Speaker 4: obvious epiphany where I'm just like, why am I worried 256 00:15:34,756 --> 00:15:35,156 Speaker 4: about this? 257 00:15:36,756 --> 00:15:39,316 Speaker 5: The seriously, why why am I? Why am I concerned 258 00:15:39,356 --> 00:15:39,716 Speaker 5: about this? 259 00:15:40,436 --> 00:15:44,916 Speaker 4: And the second that I just stopped trying to control it, 260 00:15:44,996 --> 00:15:48,596 Speaker 4: I felt peace, and then I could see that everybody 261 00:15:48,636 --> 00:15:54,676 Speaker 4: around me felt peaceful, and so I just started to say, 262 00:15:54,756 --> 00:15:59,676 Speaker 4: let them in any moment in my life where things 263 00:15:59,756 --> 00:16:02,916 Speaker 4: just felt stressful, traffic, let them the person's root in 264 00:16:02,956 --> 00:16:04,796 Speaker 4: front of me. You know, some days I've got the 265 00:16:04,916 --> 00:16:06,556 Speaker 4: energy to step in and be like, hey, you know, 266 00:16:06,836 --> 00:16:08,756 Speaker 4: they're they're they're doing the best they can. Some days 267 00:16:08,756 --> 00:16:10,596 Speaker 4: they're just like, let them. I'm not gonna be the 268 00:16:10,676 --> 00:16:13,076 Speaker 4: you know, manners police today, I just don't have the 269 00:16:13,196 --> 00:16:15,036 Speaker 4: energy for this. My mom's in a bad mood. Let 270 00:16:15,076 --> 00:16:17,396 Speaker 4: her be in a bad mood. My dad's disappointed, let 271 00:16:17,436 --> 00:16:18,276 Speaker 4: him be disappointed. 272 00:16:18,756 --> 00:16:20,316 Speaker 5: Let me show up with a little bit more compassion. 273 00:16:20,316 --> 00:16:22,156 Speaker 4: And so I just started saying let them, let them, 274 00:16:22,196 --> 00:16:27,116 Speaker 4: let them, And it was so profound, And the first 275 00:16:27,156 --> 00:16:33,716 Speaker 4: insight that I had was I could not believe how 276 00:16:33,796 --> 00:16:40,436 Speaker 4: much time I wasted on stupid things. I couldn't believe 277 00:16:41,716 --> 00:16:48,756 Speaker 4: how stressed out I was due to dumb things. If 278 00:16:48,756 --> 00:16:53,636 Speaker 4: you allow zoom calls and traffic and you know, somebody's 279 00:16:53,756 --> 00:16:58,236 Speaker 4: mood or a curt email to constantly keep your amygdala 280 00:16:58,436 --> 00:17:02,196 Speaker 4: humming and your body in a stressed out state, you're 281 00:17:02,196 --> 00:17:03,716 Speaker 4: gonna go home and take it out in your family, 282 00:17:03,796 --> 00:17:05,516 Speaker 4: and that's why you don't have time. 283 00:17:05,396 --> 00:17:08,876 Speaker 5: And energy because it's being sad, because it's getting drained 284 00:17:08,876 --> 00:17:09,636 Speaker 5: all day long. 285 00:17:09,796 --> 00:17:10,156 Speaker 4: Yeah. 286 00:17:10,236 --> 00:17:10,476 Speaker 5: Yes. 287 00:17:11,476 --> 00:17:15,716 Speaker 4: And so it became this like boundary with the world 288 00:17:16,476 --> 00:17:19,636 Speaker 4: where I started to recognize, wait a minute, my time 289 00:17:19,676 --> 00:17:25,036 Speaker 4: and energy has value, and I need to protect that 290 00:17:25,076 --> 00:17:29,556 Speaker 4: time and energy because I want to use that time 291 00:17:29,596 --> 00:17:32,116 Speaker 4: and energy to either better my life or to better 292 00:17:32,156 --> 00:17:35,716 Speaker 4: the world around me. And if I'm constantly allowing all 293 00:17:35,796 --> 00:17:38,836 Speaker 4: this stuff to drain me, I'm never going to have 294 00:17:38,836 --> 00:17:41,876 Speaker 4: the energy to do anything about what's wrong in the 295 00:17:41,916 --> 00:17:45,676 Speaker 4: world or what as bothering me in my relationships or 296 00:17:46,116 --> 00:17:46,836 Speaker 4: with my health. 297 00:17:51,076 --> 00:17:53,276 Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 298 00:17:53,276 --> 00:18:06,116 Speaker 3: of plans, Hay, slight changers. I have some exciting news. 299 00:18:06,396 --> 00:18:09,956 Speaker 3: I've written a book. It's called The Other Side of Change, 300 00:18:10,396 --> 00:18:14,636 Speaker 3: Who we become when life makes other plans. It's available 301 00:18:14,716 --> 00:18:18,756 Speaker 3: for pre order today at changewithmaya dot com slash book. 302 00:18:19,316 --> 00:18:22,476 Speaker 3: I would appreciate your early support of this project so much. 303 00:18:23,076 --> 00:18:25,996 Speaker 3: It's truly the thing I'm most proud to have created. 304 00:18:26,956 --> 00:18:28,876 Speaker 3: You can find the link to pre order in our 305 00:18:28,916 --> 00:18:32,276 Speaker 3: episode description. Thanks so much, and now onto the show. 306 00:18:33,436 --> 00:18:36,196 Speaker 3: On the night of her son's prom, Mel Robbins was 307 00:18:36,236 --> 00:18:40,036 Speaker 3: trying to micromanage everything, like where her son and his 308 00:18:40,036 --> 00:18:43,036 Speaker 3: friend should go for dinner or whether his date should 309 00:18:43,036 --> 00:18:47,796 Speaker 3: wear a corsage. Then Mel's daughter said two simple words, 310 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:51,876 Speaker 3: let them, And for whatever reason, it was exactly what 311 00:18:51,956 --> 00:18:55,396 Speaker 3: Mel needed to hear. She's held onto those words ever 312 00:18:55,436 --> 00:18:59,076 Speaker 3: since and has written an entire book about it. I 313 00:18:59,116 --> 00:19:01,436 Speaker 3: asked her to break it down in more detail. For me, 314 00:19:02,596 --> 00:19:03,876 Speaker 3: the let them theory is simple. 315 00:19:05,276 --> 00:19:07,916 Speaker 4: The more you let other people live their lives, the 316 00:19:07,956 --> 00:19:12,556 Speaker 4: better your life gets. And the more you learn how 317 00:19:12,556 --> 00:19:14,636 Speaker 4: to let people be who they are and who they're not, 318 00:19:16,076 --> 00:19:20,436 Speaker 4: the better your relationships get. And the theory itself is 319 00:19:20,516 --> 00:19:23,356 Speaker 4: about power and control, and the way that it works 320 00:19:23,436 --> 00:19:28,276 Speaker 4: is simple. There are two steps, and the first step 321 00:19:28,316 --> 00:19:31,876 Speaker 4: gets all of the fame, but it's the second step 322 00:19:31,916 --> 00:19:35,036 Speaker 4: that's actually where your power is. The first part is 323 00:19:35,316 --> 00:19:37,956 Speaker 4: let them. So when you're stressed out, when you're annoyed, 324 00:19:37,956 --> 00:19:42,076 Speaker 4: when you're hurt, when you're frustrated, when you're confused, when 325 00:19:42,116 --> 00:19:46,236 Speaker 4: you're just like feeling like somebody's disrespecting you or hurting you. 326 00:19:47,556 --> 00:19:49,916 Speaker 4: As weird as it sounds, you're going to quietly say 327 00:19:49,996 --> 00:19:53,436 Speaker 4: to yourself, let them. And I want to be very 328 00:19:53,476 --> 00:19:56,716 Speaker 4: clear about something. This is not a theory that says 329 00:19:56,796 --> 00:20:00,196 Speaker 4: you should let people hurt you. This is a theory 330 00:20:00,356 --> 00:20:03,796 Speaker 4: about where your control is and where your power is. 331 00:20:04,556 --> 00:20:06,236 Speaker 4: And the mistake that we make when we're in a 332 00:20:06,276 --> 00:20:11,196 Speaker 4: situation where there is disrespect or there is some kind 333 00:20:11,236 --> 00:20:17,156 Speaker 4: of hurtful behavior is we believe that that other person 334 00:20:17,236 --> 00:20:23,036 Speaker 4: is going to change. We get gas lit into thinking 335 00:20:23,876 --> 00:20:28,876 Speaker 4: that the power is in changing the other person. Let 336 00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:33,076 Speaker 4: them is simply a tool that reminds you that hoping 337 00:20:33,116 --> 00:20:36,636 Speaker 4: that they're going to change, or pouring time and energy 338 00:20:36,716 --> 00:20:40,916 Speaker 4: into trying to make someone else change isn't where your 339 00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:44,356 Speaker 4: power is. Let them is kind of you saying, Okay, 340 00:20:45,156 --> 00:20:47,516 Speaker 4: this is who this person is. Their behavior is the truth. 341 00:20:47,716 --> 00:20:51,356 Speaker 4: Let me is the second part. Let me is where 342 00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:53,716 Speaker 4: you say to yourself, I can't control this other person. 343 00:20:55,196 --> 00:20:57,236 Speaker 4: Let me decide what I'm going to think about this, 344 00:20:57,516 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 4: Let me decide. 345 00:20:58,996 --> 00:21:01,916 Speaker 5: What I'm going to do or don't do about. 346 00:21:01,716 --> 00:21:05,356 Speaker 4: This, and let me decide how I'm going to process 347 00:21:05,396 --> 00:21:09,796 Speaker 4: my own feelings about this, and so in normal day 348 00:21:09,836 --> 00:21:12,796 Speaker 4: to day's circumstances. The way that this works is if 349 00:21:12,836 --> 00:21:16,476 Speaker 4: somebody's disappointed. Let them be disappointed. You can't make it 350 00:21:16,516 --> 00:21:18,956 Speaker 4: to the thirty second birthday party where you're going to 351 00:21:18,996 --> 00:21:21,636 Speaker 4: meet at a Mexican restaurant and split a check with 352 00:21:21,676 --> 00:21:23,996 Speaker 4: fourteen people and not even talk to your friend that's 353 00:21:23,996 --> 00:21:26,636 Speaker 4: holding the birthday and you've had a long day at 354 00:21:26,676 --> 00:21:29,196 Speaker 4: work and you just would rather go to a yoga. 355 00:21:29,036 --> 00:21:31,596 Speaker 2: Out of my brain, well, how do you know my life? 356 00:21:32,276 --> 00:21:32,356 Speaker 3: Like? 357 00:21:32,476 --> 00:21:35,276 Speaker 4: Literally, let them be disappointed, because here's what I want you. 358 00:21:35,276 --> 00:21:37,716 Speaker 3: To vegetarian and I don't drink alcohol, so I always 359 00:21:37,716 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 3: get ripped off when you do the fourteen person text 360 00:21:39,756 --> 00:21:40,636 Speaker 3: split yes. 361 00:21:40,516 --> 00:21:42,676 Speaker 4: Because they're splitting the check and you didn't have anything 362 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:44,356 Speaker 4: to drink, and it's loud as hell and you don't 363 00:21:44,356 --> 00:21:46,196 Speaker 4: want to be there and it takes too long. And 364 00:21:46,276 --> 00:21:49,436 Speaker 4: so here's the thing. Let your friend be disappointed. Tell 365 00:21:49,436 --> 00:21:50,836 Speaker 4: them that you're not going to come tonight. 366 00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:52,156 Speaker 5: It's been a busy week at work. 367 00:21:52,476 --> 00:21:56,996 Speaker 4: Let them be disappointed, acknowledgment, and then let me remind 368 00:21:57,036 --> 00:22:00,676 Speaker 4: myself that I need to take care of myself. And 369 00:22:00,796 --> 00:22:03,556 Speaker 4: let me ask my friend if they'd be willing to 370 00:22:03,556 --> 00:22:05,436 Speaker 4: go to a yoga class this weekend and go get 371 00:22:05,436 --> 00:22:07,676 Speaker 4: some tea because I'd actually like to catch up with 372 00:22:07,716 --> 00:22:10,516 Speaker 4: you one on one, and that's how you handle that 373 00:22:10,596 --> 00:22:14,236 Speaker 4: situation and kind of a day to day thing. In 374 00:22:14,276 --> 00:22:18,396 Speaker 4: a more serious situation, if you're dealing with somebody emotionally 375 00:22:18,436 --> 00:22:23,116 Speaker 4: immature or that has a very very challenging personality style, 376 00:22:23,676 --> 00:22:25,916 Speaker 4: which I have in my life, a person like this. 377 00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:29,636 Speaker 4: The thing that I can see now that I've been 378 00:22:29,636 --> 00:22:31,596 Speaker 4: practicing let them and let me, which is really about 379 00:22:31,636 --> 00:22:34,516 Speaker 4: boundaries what's mine to own and what's yours to own, 380 00:22:34,996 --> 00:22:39,036 Speaker 4: is I, for years just expected this person to change. 381 00:22:39,716 --> 00:22:42,956 Speaker 4: I wish they would, I wish the dynamic would have 382 00:22:42,956 --> 00:22:47,916 Speaker 4: been different, and so I would go into every experience bracing. 383 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:51,036 Speaker 4: And one of the things that let them did is 384 00:22:51,356 --> 00:22:56,476 Speaker 4: let them force me to practice radical acceptance. Let them 385 00:22:56,596 --> 00:23:01,276 Speaker 4: forced me to see the situation and the person that 386 00:23:01,316 --> 00:23:05,636 Speaker 4: I'm dealing with as they are, instead of constantly explaining 387 00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:08,636 Speaker 4: away behavior that I'd been explaining away for a very 388 00:23:08,676 --> 00:23:12,836 Speaker 4: long time and somehow turning it back as it's my fault. 389 00:23:14,036 --> 00:23:17,316 Speaker 4: And then the let me part helps me start to 390 00:23:17,516 --> 00:23:21,556 Speaker 4: understand that if I'm going to let this person be 391 00:23:21,596 --> 00:23:25,316 Speaker 4: who they are, then let me decide how much time 392 00:23:25,356 --> 00:23:28,436 Speaker 4: and energy I'm going to put with this person. Let 393 00:23:28,476 --> 00:23:32,316 Speaker 4: me protect myself when I'm around this person. Let me 394 00:23:32,436 --> 00:23:35,356 Speaker 4: remind myself I can leave a conversation or a dinner table, 395 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:37,996 Speaker 4: or a text chain, or a date or an interview 396 00:23:38,316 --> 00:23:41,556 Speaker 4: or like a family thing anytime I want, And it 397 00:23:41,596 --> 00:23:45,196 Speaker 4: starts to slowly remind you in these dynamics that we 398 00:23:45,276 --> 00:23:48,636 Speaker 4: get stuck with with other people, that there are little 399 00:23:48,716 --> 00:23:51,716 Speaker 4: things you can do when you first learn to separate 400 00:23:51,836 --> 00:23:55,996 Speaker 4: yourself from managing the other person and focus more on 401 00:23:56,076 --> 00:23:59,516 Speaker 4: protecting yourself in the situation. 402 00:24:00,356 --> 00:24:02,596 Speaker 3: When it comes to accountability, which is something that you 403 00:24:02,676 --> 00:24:06,796 Speaker 3: raised when I reflect on my personal life. Granted, this 404 00:24:06,836 --> 00:24:09,716 Speaker 3: is also growing up in an Indian immigrant family where 405 00:24:09,756 --> 00:24:15,156 Speaker 3: my parents had no filters around giving me feedback. Some 406 00:24:15,236 --> 00:24:18,636 Speaker 3: of my greatest moments of growth stemmed from the people 407 00:24:18,636 --> 00:24:21,756 Speaker 3: in my life not just letting me be a certain way. 408 00:24:21,836 --> 00:24:24,676 Speaker 3: They didn't use let them. Instead, they were very forthcoming 409 00:24:24,716 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 3: with me about my weaknesses or their needs or maybe 410 00:24:27,996 --> 00:24:30,956 Speaker 3: how I'd even let them down. And so in their 411 00:24:31,156 --> 00:24:35,716 Speaker 3: articulating those feelings to me, I in turn was challenged 412 00:24:35,756 --> 00:24:38,396 Speaker 3: in some way. I was able to think differently, I 413 00:24:38,396 --> 00:24:41,156 Speaker 3: was able to do things differently, And so how can 414 00:24:41,196 --> 00:24:43,916 Speaker 3: we apply the let them theory in the right places 415 00:24:43,996 --> 00:24:47,676 Speaker 3: so that it doesn't stop other people from engaging us 416 00:24:47,716 --> 00:24:51,076 Speaker 3: in difficult conversations that could help us become better people, 417 00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:53,956 Speaker 3: or us engaging with other people to try to help them. 418 00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:58,196 Speaker 4: Yeah, let me is where you engage in the conversation. 419 00:24:58,916 --> 00:25:01,996 Speaker 5: Let me is where you tell the truth. 420 00:25:02,636 --> 00:25:05,676 Speaker 4: Let me is where you approach the people in your 421 00:25:05,716 --> 00:25:08,636 Speaker 4: life that you worried about, and instead of judging them, 422 00:25:09,476 --> 00:25:13,236 Speaker 4: you approach it with compassion and concern and support. Hey, 423 00:25:13,236 --> 00:25:16,396 Speaker 4: I'm worried about you. I notice you're not acting like 424 00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:19,396 Speaker 4: yourself now that you're dating this person. How are you 425 00:25:19,436 --> 00:25:23,236 Speaker 4: feeling about the relationship. I'm here to support you, you know. 426 00:25:23,276 --> 00:25:25,876 Speaker 4: Is there anything I can do to support you? Is 427 00:25:25,876 --> 00:25:28,516 Speaker 4: there anything you want to do about this? Instead, what 428 00:25:28,596 --> 00:25:31,916 Speaker 4: we do is we avoid the conversation. We judge. We 429 00:25:32,076 --> 00:25:35,756 Speaker 4: just kind of don't have the hard conversation. We don't 430 00:25:35,796 --> 00:25:38,836 Speaker 4: push the people in our lives because we're afraid of 431 00:25:39,476 --> 00:25:43,956 Speaker 4: having any kind of tension with somebody, And so instead, 432 00:25:44,116 --> 00:25:49,356 Speaker 4: I think we have an epidemic of people walking around 433 00:25:49,436 --> 00:25:55,996 Speaker 4: very emotionally immature, stressed out, avoiding the conversations and avoiding 434 00:25:56,516 --> 00:26:00,796 Speaker 4: taking accountability for your needs and actually asking for it 435 00:26:01,356 --> 00:26:05,836 Speaker 4: in a way that is respectful and not emotional, instead 436 00:26:05,836 --> 00:26:09,676 Speaker 4: of constantly avoiding the conversation than resenting people and then 437 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:12,436 Speaker 4: being pissed off. And so let's go back to what 438 00:26:12,436 --> 00:26:15,236 Speaker 4: we've been talking about. We've been talking about control. Every 439 00:26:15,276 --> 00:26:17,236 Speaker 4: single one of us needs to feel in control of 440 00:26:17,276 --> 00:26:19,876 Speaker 4: our lives. When we don't feel in control of our 441 00:26:19,876 --> 00:26:22,356 Speaker 4: decisions or our future, or what we're doing this afternoon, 442 00:26:22,396 --> 00:26:24,916 Speaker 4: or what's going to happen at work tomorrow, we start 443 00:26:24,956 --> 00:26:28,476 Speaker 4: to feel unsafe and a little on edge. And the 444 00:26:28,516 --> 00:26:30,956 Speaker 4: mistake that we make is when someone else's behavior because 445 00:26:30,956 --> 00:26:34,556 Speaker 4: they're dating somebody we hate, or they're letting themselves go, 446 00:26:34,796 --> 00:26:38,196 Speaker 4: or they're not quote trying at school, or they can't 447 00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:40,236 Speaker 4: get a job, and now you're starting to worry that 448 00:26:40,236 --> 00:26:44,956 Speaker 4: they're unmotivated. When their behavior worries us, we now feel 449 00:26:44,996 --> 00:26:46,716 Speaker 4: out of control. So we step in and try to 450 00:26:46,756 --> 00:26:50,316 Speaker 4: fix it. And what happens when you do that is 451 00:26:50,316 --> 00:26:52,916 Speaker 4: that you bump up against that person's need for autonomy 452 00:26:52,916 --> 00:26:54,836 Speaker 4: and control, and so they're not going to do what 453 00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:56,516 Speaker 4: you ask them to do. They might do it once 454 00:26:56,636 --> 00:26:59,156 Speaker 4: to appease you and get you off their back, yes, 455 00:26:59,636 --> 00:27:03,836 Speaker 4: but they're not actually going to create lasting change, because 456 00:27:03,876 --> 00:27:07,076 Speaker 4: the change for a person has to come from within. 457 00:27:07,956 --> 00:27:10,356 Speaker 4: And so one of the reasons why the let them 458 00:27:10,436 --> 00:27:13,036 Speaker 4: theory is going to help you in situations where somebody 459 00:27:13,676 --> 00:27:15,036 Speaker 4: is in your life and you want to change them, 460 00:27:15,076 --> 00:27:17,076 Speaker 4: and all we want to change everybody in our lives, 461 00:27:17,396 --> 00:27:18,716 Speaker 4: got opinions about everybody. 462 00:27:19,116 --> 00:27:20,956 Speaker 5: So the way that you do is you let them 463 00:27:20,956 --> 00:27:26,756 Speaker 5: be there and let me try a different approach. 464 00:27:27,796 --> 00:27:29,996 Speaker 3: You know what I'm hearing, what I'm reflecting on as 465 00:27:30,036 --> 00:27:33,676 Speaker 3: you're sharing these sorts of stories, is that there's a 466 00:27:33,756 --> 00:27:37,676 Speaker 3: dynamic interplay between let them and let me throughout the 467 00:27:37,836 --> 00:27:42,956 Speaker 3: entire duration of the experience. These are like flexible categories. 468 00:27:42,996 --> 00:27:45,276 Speaker 3: You can start with let me, maybe you sit down, 469 00:27:45,356 --> 00:27:48,276 Speaker 3: you have a conversation. But what I see let them 470 00:27:48,476 --> 00:27:53,556 Speaker 3: serving as is a psychological safeguard such that if you 471 00:27:53,636 --> 00:27:56,276 Speaker 3: engage in the let me in good faith and you 472 00:27:56,316 --> 00:27:59,036 Speaker 3: explore all the options, you have a safe landing with 473 00:27:59,236 --> 00:28:02,636 Speaker 3: let them, which is, if I'm not able to change them, 474 00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:05,516 Speaker 3: I'm not going to allow it to erode my well 475 00:28:05,556 --> 00:28:06,516 Speaker 3: being and mental. 476 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:10,596 Speaker 4: Health, yes, or this relationship relationship, because part of what 477 00:28:10,876 --> 00:28:16,156 Speaker 4: actually creates friction and tension and distance in a relationship 478 00:28:16,196 --> 00:28:19,236 Speaker 4: is the opinion that somebody else should change. 479 00:28:19,476 --> 00:28:20,796 Speaker 5: And what I've found is if. 480 00:28:20,676 --> 00:28:25,116 Speaker 4: You create this space where you let people be, You 481 00:28:25,236 --> 00:28:28,236 Speaker 4: let people have their feelings, You let people have their opinions, 482 00:28:28,796 --> 00:28:31,756 Speaker 4: You let people have their expectations, You let people have 483 00:28:31,876 --> 00:28:36,196 Speaker 4: their timeline for their own healing, and you hold a 484 00:28:36,276 --> 00:28:40,916 Speaker 4: boundary that creates acceptance of that person as they are, 485 00:28:41,116 --> 00:28:42,956 Speaker 4: or at least witnessing them. 486 00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:45,356 Speaker 5: Clearly as they are. Now. 487 00:28:45,396 --> 00:28:48,276 Speaker 4: You have a separate boundary in relation to them, which is, 488 00:28:48,356 --> 00:28:52,676 Speaker 4: let me. Let me remind myself that the only power 489 00:28:52,756 --> 00:28:57,116 Speaker 4: that I have in this relationship is myself. And if 490 00:28:57,116 --> 00:28:59,956 Speaker 4: I want the relationship to change, the only thing that 491 00:28:59,996 --> 00:29:04,356 Speaker 4: will change it is me. And if I focus on 492 00:29:04,436 --> 00:29:08,596 Speaker 4: what's in my control, which is what I think about this, 493 00:29:08,876 --> 00:29:11,636 Speaker 4: what I do or don't do, and how I process 494 00:29:11,676 --> 00:29:15,116 Speaker 4: my emotions, I change how I relate to this person, 495 00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:18,316 Speaker 4: how much time I give, how much energy I change, 496 00:29:18,316 --> 00:29:22,116 Speaker 4: how reactive I am, And that shifts the dynamic entirely. Yeah, 497 00:29:22,156 --> 00:29:24,756 Speaker 4: you know, the truth is this thing brings you closer 498 00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:31,116 Speaker 4: to people in your life because when you create space 499 00:29:31,196 --> 00:29:34,356 Speaker 4: for people to have different opinions or disappointments or expectations, 500 00:29:34,356 --> 00:29:35,996 Speaker 4: and you don't make it your job to change them 501 00:29:36,076 --> 00:29:39,596 Speaker 4: or manage them. You're now actually in relation with the 502 00:29:39,636 --> 00:29:44,996 Speaker 4: person as they are, and you're not in relationship with 503 00:29:45,156 --> 00:29:47,516 Speaker 4: the possibility or what they hope they'd be, or trying 504 00:29:47,516 --> 00:29:49,396 Speaker 4: to change them or the tension of the die. No, 505 00:29:50,036 --> 00:29:52,196 Speaker 4: I just see you exactly as you are. And even 506 00:29:52,196 --> 00:29:55,116 Speaker 4: though I don't understand your opinion, if I'm the kind 507 00:29:55,156 --> 00:29:57,796 Speaker 4: of person that wants to understand it, let me try 508 00:29:57,796 --> 00:29:59,636 Speaker 4: to understand why you think the way that you do 509 00:29:59,756 --> 00:30:01,956 Speaker 4: instead of judging you and not talking to you about it. 510 00:30:02,716 --> 00:30:05,436 Speaker 3: I love what you just said because I just interviewed 511 00:30:05,436 --> 00:30:08,396 Speaker 3: Amanda Knox for the show and she was saying, true 512 00:30:08,436 --> 00:30:11,916 Speaker 3: freedom for her is seeing the world as it actually is, 513 00:30:12,676 --> 00:30:14,396 Speaker 3: not as you believe it should be. And you know, 514 00:30:14,396 --> 00:30:17,556 Speaker 3: this is a woman who's faced wrongful conviction after wrongful conviction. 515 00:30:17,796 --> 00:30:20,996 Speaker 3: She knows what she's talking about, and she felt like 516 00:30:21,116 --> 00:30:23,756 Speaker 3: that was the one definition of freedom that no one 517 00:30:23,756 --> 00:30:25,836 Speaker 3: could ever take away from her. And when you're saying 518 00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:29,076 Speaker 3: that to me, it's like, Actually, what a beautiful thing 519 00:30:29,476 --> 00:30:31,956 Speaker 3: to engage with the world and that people in it. 520 00:30:31,916 --> 00:30:32,556 Speaker 2: As they are. 521 00:30:33,036 --> 00:30:36,236 Speaker 3: Yes, what a wonderful way to live. Just even hearing 522 00:30:36,276 --> 00:30:39,876 Speaker 3: you say, that sends tingles down my spine. Yeah, to 523 00:30:39,956 --> 00:30:44,476 Speaker 3: free ourselves of every expectation and every preconceived notion and 524 00:30:44,516 --> 00:30:46,556 Speaker 3: every hope of what we want them to be or 525 00:30:46,596 --> 00:30:48,596 Speaker 3: could be, or how we want to be with them 526 00:30:48,636 --> 00:30:51,516 Speaker 3: whatever it is. Like, we come to every social interaction 527 00:30:51,676 --> 00:30:55,036 Speaker 3: with so much, like we carry so much mental and 528 00:30:55,076 --> 00:30:58,516 Speaker 3: emotional baggage that just surrounds that interaction. And imagine you 529 00:30:58,596 --> 00:31:01,356 Speaker 3: just like strip away that artifice. What a raw and 530 00:31:01,436 --> 00:31:05,156 Speaker 3: beautiful interaction you could have. There's no agenda anymore. 531 00:31:05,916 --> 00:31:08,636 Speaker 4: No, there's no agenda because you just see people as 532 00:31:08,676 --> 00:31:11,796 Speaker 4: they are. And you know, to your point, I think 533 00:31:11,836 --> 00:31:14,156 Speaker 4: so much of this comes from the conditioning that we 534 00:31:14,276 --> 00:31:19,476 Speaker 4: have about human relationships as children. Yeah, if you think 535 00:31:19,516 --> 00:31:24,116 Speaker 4: about the experience of being a child, your entire conditioning 536 00:31:24,156 --> 00:31:30,356 Speaker 4: around relationships is from a power dynamic where somebody expects 537 00:31:30,396 --> 00:31:32,836 Speaker 4: things of you and tells you what to do and 538 00:31:33,316 --> 00:31:35,996 Speaker 4: parents you, and that's their job. 539 00:31:36,556 --> 00:31:38,596 Speaker 5: But then we become eighteen years. 540 00:31:38,396 --> 00:31:41,076 Speaker 4: Old and we think that that's what relationships are, that 541 00:31:41,076 --> 00:31:44,516 Speaker 4: we're supposed to parent other people, and that's not what 542 00:31:44,556 --> 00:31:48,836 Speaker 4: adult relationships should be. Learning how to see somebody exactly 543 00:31:48,876 --> 00:31:51,756 Speaker 4: as they are and exactly as they're not, and then 544 00:31:52,116 --> 00:31:57,196 Speaker 4: choosing how you're going to show up with them as 545 00:31:57,236 --> 00:32:04,996 Speaker 4: they are. That is a just groundbreaking, late, freeing, beautiful idea. 546 00:32:05,036 --> 00:32:07,556 Speaker 4: It's certainly brought me closer to people in my life, 547 00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:11,996 Speaker 4: and it's made me confront how much expectation and judgment 548 00:32:12,396 --> 00:32:15,756 Speaker 4: and opinions that I have about my kids, about my husband, 549 00:32:15,796 --> 00:32:22,516 Speaker 4: about anything. Yeah, and learn how to have boundaries between 550 00:32:22,836 --> 00:32:26,716 Speaker 4: your desire and conditioning to manage people's happiness and moods 551 00:32:27,396 --> 00:32:30,516 Speaker 4: and hold space for people's experience instead. And one of 552 00:32:30,516 --> 00:32:32,476 Speaker 4: the other beautiful things that's happened for me as a 553 00:32:32,516 --> 00:32:36,196 Speaker 4: parent is that something was happening with one of my 554 00:32:36,316 --> 00:32:41,116 Speaker 4: kids that was upsetting, a breakup, problems with friends, issues 555 00:32:41,156 --> 00:32:45,276 Speaker 4: with money, anxiety, all this stuff that's just normal stuff 556 00:32:45,316 --> 00:32:47,836 Speaker 4: of life, right. I would just rush in and try 557 00:32:47,876 --> 00:32:49,516 Speaker 4: to take it away. I would come in with the advice. 558 00:32:49,556 --> 00:32:51,956 Speaker 4: I would tell them what to do, absolutely, and I 559 00:32:52,196 --> 00:32:57,676 Speaker 4: was stepping over the actual thing that needed to be done, 560 00:32:57,796 --> 00:33:04,796 Speaker 4: which is literally, listen, validate somebody's feeling, let them have 561 00:33:04,876 --> 00:33:08,396 Speaker 4: the experience. And then here's the most important thing. If 562 00:33:08,436 --> 00:33:14,996 Speaker 4: you believe in the person's capacity and capability to move 563 00:33:15,036 --> 00:33:18,716 Speaker 4: through this challenge, and learn from it. Then your role 564 00:33:19,156 --> 00:33:22,556 Speaker 4: in their life is very different because you move from 565 00:33:22,556 --> 00:33:26,716 Speaker 4: a fixer to a person who stands on the sidelines, 566 00:33:26,876 --> 00:33:35,556 Speaker 4: reminding and coaching that you have the ability to deal 567 00:33:35,596 --> 00:33:38,756 Speaker 4: with this, to learn from it, to survive this, to 568 00:33:38,796 --> 00:33:42,116 Speaker 4: come stronger from it. You put people back into the 569 00:33:42,236 --> 00:33:46,476 Speaker 4: driver's seat of their life as you're sitting there next 570 00:33:46,476 --> 00:33:51,236 Speaker 4: to them saying, I can see your heartbroken. You know, 571 00:33:51,316 --> 00:33:54,356 Speaker 4: I'm sorry is happening to you, And I believe in 572 00:33:54,396 --> 00:33:57,836 Speaker 4: your ability to move through this. I believe that you're 573 00:33:57,876 --> 00:34:00,756 Speaker 4: going to be okay. But is there anything that you 574 00:34:00,796 --> 00:34:02,156 Speaker 4: want to do about this right now? 575 00:34:02,356 --> 00:34:03,876 Speaker 5: Yeah? 576 00:34:04,156 --> 00:34:07,716 Speaker 3: When you look back now on young mel and what 577 00:34:07,876 --> 00:34:12,236 Speaker 3: she felt she needed in order to have a stable existence, 578 00:34:12,276 --> 00:34:16,316 Speaker 3: which is to manage and control her environment right the 579 00:34:16,316 --> 00:34:18,036 Speaker 3: people in it and for all of them, to make 580 00:34:18,076 --> 00:34:19,996 Speaker 3: them all happy, do all the right things, check all 581 00:34:19,996 --> 00:34:23,556 Speaker 3: the boxes. And then you reflect on yourself today. I mean, 582 00:34:23,596 --> 00:34:28,276 Speaker 3: the evolution's extraordinary. How would you summarize what your current 583 00:34:28,356 --> 00:34:32,236 Speaker 3: relationship with control is in relation to other people? 584 00:34:33,156 --> 00:34:40,036 Speaker 4: Well, it is a daily practice because everybody has a 585 00:34:40,076 --> 00:34:43,636 Speaker 4: hardwired need to feel in control and that's never going away. 586 00:34:44,676 --> 00:34:51,516 Speaker 4: But boy, has it been transformational. To really have tools 587 00:34:52,476 --> 00:34:56,676 Speaker 4: to be able to help me decipher what's in my 588 00:34:56,796 --> 00:35:00,516 Speaker 4: control and what's not. What do I have power over 589 00:35:00,636 --> 00:35:03,236 Speaker 4: and what do I not? Where do I want to 590 00:35:03,356 --> 00:35:08,276 Speaker 4: give my time and attention because time and intention and 591 00:35:08,316 --> 00:35:12,196 Speaker 4: your energy those are the single most valuable things you 592 00:35:12,196 --> 00:35:14,116 Speaker 4: have in life because where you put your time and 593 00:35:14,156 --> 00:35:17,036 Speaker 4: what you pour your energy into determines the experience you 594 00:35:17,116 --> 00:35:20,316 Speaker 4: have in life. I mean, it's just been life changing 595 00:35:20,316 --> 00:35:25,356 Speaker 4: because I actually do feel more in control and I 596 00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:29,316 Speaker 4: more importantly feel very peaceful most of the time. 597 00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:52,836 Speaker 3: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Just as a reminder, 598 00:35:52,996 --> 00:35:55,636 Speaker 3: you can pre order my new book, The Other Side 599 00:35:55,636 --> 00:35:58,836 Speaker 3: of Change at the link in our episode description or 600 00:35:58,836 --> 00:36:02,516 Speaker 3: at Change with maya dot com slash book and join 601 00:36:02,556 --> 00:36:05,316 Speaker 3: me next time when we hear from best selling author 602 00:36:05,436 --> 00:36:10,556 Speaker 3: and podcast host Glennon Doyle about her life search for belonging. 603 00:36:12,076 --> 00:36:16,556 Speaker 6: Many times in my life, I've had moments where I'm like, oh, 604 00:36:16,596 --> 00:36:19,836 Speaker 6: I'm out of here. I won't spend another moment in 605 00:36:19,836 --> 00:36:22,196 Speaker 6: this cafeteria, in this high school, in this marriage, in 606 00:36:22,276 --> 00:36:22,996 Speaker 6: this life. 607 00:36:23,276 --> 00:36:26,316 Speaker 3: That's next week on a slight change of plans see you. 608 00:36:26,396 --> 00:36:30,516 Speaker 3: Then A slight change of plans is created, written and 609 00:36:30,596 --> 00:36:34,316 Speaker 3: executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family 610 00:36:34,396 --> 00:36:38,996 Speaker 3: includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, 611 00:36:39,436 --> 00:36:43,156 Speaker 3: our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubin, and our sound 612 00:36:43,236 --> 00:36:47,556 Speaker 3: engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, 613 00:36:47,756 --> 00:36:50,956 Speaker 3: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change 614 00:36:50,956 --> 00:36:54,196 Speaker 3: of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big 615 00:36:54,196 --> 00:36:57,556 Speaker 3: thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special 616 00:36:57,596 --> 00:37:00,516 Speaker 3: thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change 617 00:37:00,556 --> 00:37:03,196 Speaker 3: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Mayah Schunker. 618 00:37:03,516 --> 00:37:04,276 Speaker 2: See you next week. 619 00:37:24,076 --> 00:37:27,116 Speaker 4: Can I just tell you something, the worse I look, 620 00:37:27,716 --> 00:37:31,276 Speaker 4: the better our content does. And I'm looking pretty decent today. 621 00:37:31,316 --> 00:37:31,916 Speaker 5: So we're fucked. 622 00:37:31,956 --> 00:37:32,876 Speaker 2: We're totally screwed.