WEBVTT - Are We Eating Sushi All Wrong? 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.120 Guess what will what's that mango? So sushi's obviously everywhere now, 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.520 but do you remember when we were kids how exotic 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:09.800 it was In first grade, I've done this report on Tokyo, 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:11.800 and I remember the idea of eating raw fish just 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:15.480 seeming like so unimaginable to me. But that same year, 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:16.720 one of my friends got up in front of the 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:19.200 class and he told everyone he'd been to Japan and 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.280 he'd actually tried sushi and he claimed it was delicious. 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.000 I guess everybody else thought that was pretty discussed. Yeah, 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:26.520 no one believed to him, like they thought it was 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.479 gross and you know, it's raw fish. So being first grader, 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:32.000 as everyone was yelling like yuck and gross and just 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:34.639 shaking their heads in disbelief. And then like this, one 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.080 girl raised her hand and asked him, but what sushi 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:42.519 actually tastes like? He just smiled and said bubba. So 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:44.920 for years I actually thought like, maybe sushi does tasting 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.440 bubble gum. But of course now I do know what 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.159 it tastes like, and sushi's everywhere. But it made us 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:52.760 wonder how did we start eating these delicious fish rolls 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.400 in the first place, and how did it come to America, 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:57.480 and are you really supposed to be eating sushi with 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:19.280 her hands instead of your chopsticks. Let's dive in. Hey 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:21.840 their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:23.759 Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good friend 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:25.760 man guest Ticketer and on the other side of the 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.039 soundproof glass, just chowing down on a spicy tune or all. 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.480 Look at the thing, it's just drenched in soy sauce. 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.600 That's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil. Tristan, why are 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.160 you using the sport? Oh man, he's got the wassabi 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:39.440 mix in there too. All these problems, but that actually 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.200 brings us to what today's episode is all about, and 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:46.000 that's an intervention for Tristan. Yeah, actually, I'm kidding, all right. 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.040 So there's a lot of common misconceptions about sushi out there, 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:50.920 and not just about how to eat it, but how 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.000 it's made, where it comes from, and even what's in it. 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:56.160 So on today's show, we're gonna take a good hard 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:58.760 look at what we think we know about sushi and 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:00.520 see if we can set the records right on one 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:04.600 of America's most popular and misunderstood finger foods. Yeah, well, 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.200 why don't we start right there, because that's amazing to 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.959 be Sushi is actually a finger food, and that's actually 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.160 the preferred way to eat it because sushi chefs like 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:14.799 to loosely pack their sushi. That way you can fall 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:17.040 a part in your mouth and the flavors can mingle better. 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.200 The problem is so many Americans are hung up on 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.880 eating sushi with chopsticks that chefs in the US actually 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.880 packed their sushi tightly, and that's how it will hold 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.160 together when grab with the sticks. It seems like such 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.280 a small thing, but a lot of people actually shy 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.120 away from sushi because they think you have to use 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.720 chopsticks to eat it. Really still, so Americans still don't 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:36.639 like chopsticks. I kind of felt like we've gotten over 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.640 that by this point. Yeah, apparently not so. I was 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.760 looking at this market research from you gov and they 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:45.880 conducted the survey on chopstick proficiency. This was back in 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:49.040 two thousand fourteen, and I found that seventies seven percent 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.519 of Americans preferred to use a knife and fork over 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.600 chop sticks when they eat Asian food. And most of 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.919 that reason is that Americans are just not good with chopsticks. 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.959 The survey claimed that thirty four percent of the country 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:04.560 rates is proficiency with chopsticks as fair or better, while 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.760 related as a not very good or terrible. Wow. And 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.040 so what about the other quarter of the country. They 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.560 haven't even tried chop sticks, explains it. The good news 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.000 for them is that counter to most people is thinking 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.880 it's perfectly proper to eat most kinds of sushi with 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.240 your fingers, and the only exception is sashimi. You know, 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.760 sushi means those thinly sliced pieces of fresh, rassy food 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.040 and those are served without rice. And because rassy food 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.160 can be a little slippery to handle with your hands, 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:34.400 using chop sticks is the way to go for those. 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.360 But maki rules or nagiri, you can use either chopsticks 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.360 or your fingers for those. All right, So we're breaking 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:42.720 down the barriers on today's show. And actually, I feel 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.440 like another big deterrent for people who don't eat sushi 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:47.360 or are some of the words that you just mentioned, 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:49.800 you know, the proper terms for different kinds of sushi, 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.120 And obviously these are Japanese words that anybody can look up. 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:54.800 But you know, for people that just want to eat 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:56.840 lunch and not have to learn a new language while 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.520 doing it, that that unknown vocabulary can actually be a 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.600 little bit in intimidating. Yeah, but if you know the definitions, 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.920 it isn't intimitting at all. So like the words sushii 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:09.320 literally means body cuts, so the whole dishes right there 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.760 in its name, right, And some of the other terms 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:14.640 are less literal, but they still give these details that 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.440 can help you distinguish between the different kinds of sushi. 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.080 So taking a geary for example, it's the kind of 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.400 sushi that consists of a small amount of rice with 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.040 a slice of raw fish on top. And the word 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:29.080 geary actually translates to grip or grasp, so again, in 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.359 a way, that's the whole dish, right, the slice of 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.200 fish grips the rice mount. And it's the same with 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.200 another kind of sushi, the maki roll. And this is 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.479 what most Americans picture when they think of sushi. You know, 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.599 it's the colorful circles of fish and veggies, and that's 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.240 surrounded by sushi rice and then this outer layer of 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.480 seaweed and the small pieces are cut from this longer 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.800 cylindrical rolls that are formed using I'm sure you've seen 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.440 it for those like woven bamboo mats. There's a called 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.200 maki su and you can probably guess the mat is 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.640 where the maki gets its name. All right, So there 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.360 you go, the most common types of sushi explained. You've 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.960 got body cuts, gripping fish, and matt rolls and actually 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.800 saying it out loud I can. Yeah, Yeah, it's probably 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.239 best that we stick with the Japanese words. Yeah, but 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:15.000 you know, you know what, I just realized we're only 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.839 a few minutes into this discussion and we've already messed 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.240 us off. What do you mean by that? Well, we've 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.080 been talking about sashimi as if it's a kind of sushi, 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.920 But like I mentioned earlier, sushini doesn't actually include rice, 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.960 so by definition it can't be sushi. Oh wow, you're right. 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:31.600 But at least the mistake gives us a chance to 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.760 talk about what's maybe the biggest misconception about sushi, and 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:37.280 that's that the word itself means raw fish. I mean, 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:39.800 it's it's it's an easy mistake to make because we 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:43.400 think of raw fishes like the defining component of the cuisine. 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.480 But an actuality, sushi is all about the rice, and 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.240 that's what the word really refers to it's that sour 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.880 tasting rice. Yeah, and if you look at the history, 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.159 you can actually see why rice deserves the top billing. 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:56.240 This is another thing most people don't know, but the 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.240 earliest form of sushi actually comes from China and not Japan. 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.880 It was later named narazushi, and it started as a 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:04.880 form of food preservation back in the third or fourth 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.200 century BC. It's different from the fresh fish we know today. 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.600 Narzushi was actually made by packing a wooden barrel with 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:14.320 all these layers of raw and salted fish and and 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:16.840 then cooked rice and then they'd set this heavy weight 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.279 on top and you'd let the whole thing for meant 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:21.960 for up to a year, right, And this work just 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.359 like with any other fermentation. You've got friendly bacteria that 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:27.760 fed on a substance. In this case it was starch 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.839 and the rice, and then it produced lactic acid in turn, 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.440 and the resulting acid is what helped preserve the fish 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.920 by slowing the growth of harmful bacteria you know that 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.760 would otherwise cause it to rot. And the technique is 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.760 thought to have first been used by farmers who lived 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:44.039 along the Makong River in Southeast Asia. So during the 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.400 rainy months, the river would sometimes flood and the water 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.400 would wash tons of carp into these nearby rice paddies, 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:51.640 and they didn't want this carp to go to waste, 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:53.400 and so the farmers came up with a new way 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.240 to store the fish until they were needed. I mean, 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:58.880 it's pretty ingenious. But what's funny to me about this 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.640 proto sushi or early sushi, is that nobody actually ate 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.440 the rice, and despite the crucial role it played in 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.240 the fermentation process, the rice was just tossed away afterwards, 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.440 and it was only the fish that was eaten. I mean, 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.600 we are talking about super sour year old rice. I 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.080 can't exactly blame them for not eating it. Yeah, but 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.720 the fish wasn't in his prime either. So I actually 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.320 asked gave what it tasted like, and he was saying, 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.840 after a year in the barrel, it would morph into 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:30.560 this pungent, gelatinous, almost cheese like. I mean, it couldn't 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:32.760 have been any better tasting than all that sur rice. 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.520 That is disgusting, but you know, if it makes you 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.120 feel any better. The Japanese did start eating both the 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:41.400 fermaute fish and the rice sometime after sushi made its 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.680 way to Japan, and this was I think around the 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.920 ninth century, so Buddhism was spreading throughout the country at 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.200 the time, and fermitte sushi helped meat that growing desire 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.560 for protein source. You know that that would fit into 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.200 their meatless diet, even if it did taste pretty sour. 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.760 I guess yeah. So I've read that the sour taste 0:07:57.760 --> 0:07:59.880 was actually a plus for the Japanese at that time 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.920 because the rice vinegar industry had just taken off. This 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.440 was in the thirteenth century, and people actually came to 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.760 appreciate a little sour flavor in their cuisine because vinegar 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.040 was so popular in the markets. In fact, when Cooke's 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:12.800 found a faster way to for men cure all that 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.040 fish without the use of rice, Japanese started adding vinegar 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.720 to their sushi rice just so wouldn't lose that sour taste, 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:20.520 all right. So, so by this point we've got non 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.240 fer minute rice seasoned with vinegar, just like the kind 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:25.800 used in sushi today. So what about the fish that 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.000 when does it go from being pickled to being raw 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.640 like we're used to it now. So raw fish sushi 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:35.000 didn't actually become the norm until after refrigeration became such 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.360 a big thing in the twentieth century, but it did 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.080 start to crop up in some places during the eighteen hundreds. 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:43.720 So at that time, Tokyo or Edo as it was 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.640 called back then, was fostering the next generation of sushi. 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.400 And all these mobile food stalls that have begun to 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.000 crowd up in the streets, and this one man, his 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.760 name was Hanaya Yohi, he set himself apart from the 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.520 crowd by offering what's often considered the first example of 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:00.960 modern nagari sushi. So Yo has a great story. He 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.720 opened his stall near bridge in Tokyo that crossed the 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.000 Sumida River, and not only was that area highly traffic, 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.880 but it was easy access to all this fresh fish. 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.560 And in fact, the fish Yohai served was so fresh 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:14.240 that there was no need for men or cook it. 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.000 All you have to do was cut into slices and 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:18.920 hand pressed them onto mounds of vinegared rice, and the 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.319 process took minutes rather than the hours of days that 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:25.319 his competitors were, you know, spending curing fish. The Japanese 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.640 public fell immediately in love with it, and they loved 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.120 the fresh taste, but they also loved the fast prep time, 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.360 and his business just exploded, and all these years later, 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.040 it's still the most popular kind in Japan. I think 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.200 what's most surprising to me about the story is hearing 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.400 that sushi was a common street food in those early days. Like, 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.400 we have this idea in the US of sushi being 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:48.840 this really fancy, upscale cuisine, all these traditions and rules 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.560 that have to be observed. It's a kind of stigma 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.439 that can make sushi feel inaccessible to some people. So 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.720 it's it's actually pretty cool to hear about its humble origins. Yeah, 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.360 the story is helpful in making it more approachable, but 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.680 let's be honest, the big reason that people view sushi 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.280 is such a posh food is the price. I mean, 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.160 you can definitely find roles with imitation crab another kind 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:13.679 of filler everywhere from grocery stores to gas stations, airports, 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:17.480 but anything with actual sushi grade sushi is gonna cost you. 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:19.680 But it's definitely true, and I know that's the case 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.520 even in Japan, where rising costs have made sushi much 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:24.839 more of a special occasion food than that maybe it 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.640 once was. Yeah, I don't think the average Japanese citizens 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.880 would dispute that quality sushi is pricy and worth the price, 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:33.480 But the bigger sticking point for them would actually be 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:35.920 what Americans due to a food that costs so much. 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:37.920 Because I'm not sure if you've noticed, but we don't 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:39.920 tend to respect sushi the way it ought to be. 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:42.200 I saw you given that side, I go answer Tristan 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.120 that I don't want to pick on him anymore, but 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:48.040 I will mention as a general public service announcement that 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.560 you're you're really only supposed to use a tiny bit 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:52.240 of soy sauce with your sushi, you know, so you 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.439 don't drown out the other flavors. Most Japanese sushi chefs 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:57.960 actually brush a little bit of their own homemade sauce 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.800 right onto each piece of fish before served, And the 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.280 same thing happens with with sabi, you know, when when needed, 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.280 chefs will include some fresh was sabi between the fish 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.920 and the rice. Of course, none of this really happens 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.600 in the US, because chefs know that American sushi eaters 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.920 like to add those condiments themselves, you know, often to 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:17.760 access that. I've told you the story about my father 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:19.480 in law when we were at a restaurant one time 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:21.520 years ago, and he just had this brain lapse and 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:24.400 for some reason was thinking that it was avocado. Took 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.120 a big bite of was sabi, just said, oh, dear Lord, 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.679 and then turn bright red. But yeah, my daughter did 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.600 the same thing. She's like guacamole. Yes, and that is 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.640 on fire. But I mean it makes sense, right, I. 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.080 I kind of wish we did it the Japanese way, 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:41.160 And it seems like a better system than diting this 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:44.240 like big stack of sushi and dipping it in soy 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.640 sauce and hang it all fall apart. That's just so messy, definitely, 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:49.520 you know. I I did pick up a few tips 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:51.440 on the subject though, from Gero on No you know, 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:54.160 the world famous sushi chef was in the documentary that 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.400 Netflix seemed to suggest to everyone in the world. He 0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.480 says that the best way to apply soy sauce after 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.920 the fact is by dipping a piece of pickle ginger 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:04.920 and then dabbing it across the top of the fish. 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:07.920 I feel like that's a sushi life, yeah, isn't it. 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.440 I mean, you know. He also has some solid advice 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.040 for people who want to eat a geary using chopsticks. 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.480 He suggests they think of the sushi as a portable shrine. 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:18.800 Place your chopsticks parallel to the tray as if they're 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:22.079 the shrines carrying poles, and lift up the sushi by 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.920 grasping it along its sides. If you grasp it through 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.160 its middle with your chopsticks, it will surely fall apart. 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.800 I love that he references shrines carrying poles, like everyone 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:37.280 knows that shrine should be carried with poles, right, exactly. Um, 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.480 But still that that's a great tip for Americans. So 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:41.120 what are you saying? We talked a little bit about 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.040 how America developed a taste for raw fish in the 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.400 first place. Yeah, And to help with that, let's call 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:47.960 up Trevor Courson. So he wrote an amazing book called 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.200 The Story of Sushi, and I'm pretty sure he can 0:12:50.240 --> 0:13:01.240 tell us how it made the trip state side. Our 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.640 guest today is the author of a fascinating book called 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:06.800 the Story of Sushi, an unlikely saga of raw fish 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.720 and rice. Trevor Courson. Welcome to Part Time Genius. Thanks 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.320 for having me on. Trevor, this isn't the first book 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:15.960 you've written that was related to see Life. Your first book, 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.880 which got a ton of critical acclaim was the Secret 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.320 Life of Lobsters. So I'm curious what turned your interests 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:25.760 towards sushi and writing this book. I had gone to 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.520 Japan just kind of by accident when I was a 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:32.280 high school student on this summer scholarship that I just 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.560 happened to get, and it was I went and lived 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.840 with a homestake family, and so I had I always 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:39.839 had that experience. It was always issued in Japan. I 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:42.640 ended up going back later as a college student and 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.080 studying Japanese language and living in Japan for a while. 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:50.360 Um so uh. And the thing that had happened before 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.960 I went to Japan the first time this was and 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.480 so sushi was still very unusual at that time, and 0:13:57.840 --> 0:13:59.560 my high school teacher said, oh, you're going to Japan 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:01.720 this summer the scholarship. The thing is you're gonna have 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:03.600 to not be able to eat raw fish. You don't 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:05.839 have to know how to eat sushi. And so there 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.840 was like one sushi restaurant in town, and my teacher 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.520 bought a box to takeout sushi, brought up to school 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:13.920 and made me eat it, like, sit down in the office, 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:18.520 try eating to prepare me for this, And I thought, wow, 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.880 here's the cuisine that is truly repulsive, and like, I 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.200 was horrible, How am I going to survive this experience? 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.320 But the funny thing that happened was when I got 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.040 to Japan and I was living in this home state 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:33.920 family and they took me out to their local sushi bar, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.960 and I realized what the whole experience was at that 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:40.280 point that it was like this amazing, really fun social 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.440 experience where you didn't order, you sat at the bar 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.200 with a bunch of other people from the neighborhood, and 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.120 the sushi chef was like this friendly neighborhood bartender and 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.040 you just like started giving you these amazing things that 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:52.440 you didn't know what they were, and you sort of 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.160 explain a little bit about each one, and this kind 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:58.480 of series of small surprises that occurred, as you said, 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:00.840 at the sushi bar and interacted with the chef and everything, 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.000 and what what troubled me was like when I would 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.080 try to eat sushi back in the States after that, 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.240 it was never the same, Like I was never having 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:10.960 that experience that had made sushi so wonderful. So I 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.160 like decided to make it my mission after this lobster book, 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.040 you know, did so well, my publisher was like, well, 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:17.920 can you do anything else on sea food because this 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:22.560 was clearly resonating, and uh, it's like what about what 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:24.600 about sushi? And that's how the Sushi book get started. 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.520 And I tried to like try to educate American readers. Um, 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.440 you know what the Japanese sushi experience is actually, like 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:33.680 it's very very different, and the whole history of sushi 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:35.560 and the experience is very different from from what we 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:37.800 tend to think of in the US. Yeah, and we 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.400 touch a little on that in this episode. But I've 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:42.520 heard you talk about the fact that we what we 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.280 consider as valuable in sushi has changed over the years. 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:47.800 Can you talk a little bit about that. Yeah, this 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.080 is so fascinating. And I didn't really realize this either 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.720 until I started digging into the historical research. Um but 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.800 if you ask any you know, like traditional Japanese sushi 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.200 chef today, they'll tell you that like blue fin tuna 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:07.320 is the pinnacle of of authentic Japanese sushi, especially the 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.800 the belly cut to the toro, right, that's sort of 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.440 melt in your mouth and station. The weird thing is, 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:14.960 when I started looking into the history of this, the 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.840 if you went back a hundred years um in early 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:22.120 nineteen hundred, for example, sushi was very very different the 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.080 traditional Japanese sushi that they were eating at that time. 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.200 Tuna was considered a garbage fish. You would never eat tuna, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.400 possibly avoid it. It was it was considered like very 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.600 low class and um, if you had to eat tuna, 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.000 they would like they would marinated in soy sauce or 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.320 buried in the ground, like do all these things to 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.440 like try to get rid of the flavor of And 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:49.640 at the time, what what actually was considered desirable sushi 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:53.600 ingredients were um, smaller fish that had lighter flesh like 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:57.880 the silvery or lighter flesh, fish that had more of 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:01.200 a like kind of a crunchy text you're almost to eat. 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:05.280 A lot of shellfish were considered very desirable. Flounder and 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.520 sea bream were considered like the pinnacle of fine sushi, 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:12.240 especially the kind of juwier parts of the flashood. It's 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.800 completely different that the culinary values have completely changed over 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.639 the past century, and has this changed the way you 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.240 think about sushi when you're in a restaurant and ordering 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:25.000 it for yourself. Yeah, I mean the thing is when 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.280 you sit down at the sushi bar, a lot of 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.640 chefs or you know, if we often we just order 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.919 what we're used to. We order the usual um suspects, 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:40.280 the tuna belly, the famine, the yellowtail, uh sweet feel. 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.760 And what I learned in my research is that none 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:48.200 of those is a traditional Japanese sushi ingredient. Uh. Those 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:52.720 are all recent inventions. And trying to understand this, I 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:58.000 realized that the blue thing tunam is it was an 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:04.040 invention of the Japanese UM Airlines in the nineteen seventies. 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:10.000 They were uh flying their planes full of Sony walkman's 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:12.560 over to the US and flying them back empty, and 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.080 they were trying to find something they could put in 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.240 the planes on the way back, and they got the idea, well, 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.080 maybe you know, there's some kind of like sea food 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.560 in North America that people will eat, and and it 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.359 turned out there wasn't Like they even looked into tuna, 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.399 and no one would eat. No one ate tuna like 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.280 maybe you'd open a can occasionally. But they were trying 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.680 to get a tuna as possibly an ingredient they could 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.639 fly back and sell in Japan, and no one was 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.159 eating it. And everybody thought the idea was ludicrous. So 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:42.320 it was in my my colleague Sasha Istenberg and journalists 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.440 to kind of exposed this story. It was a cargo 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:50.000 executive at Japan Airlines who who who like designed and 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:54.719 built the cryogenic freezer containers and who developed the market 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:58.240 that kind of turned blue con tuna into a global 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.400 sushi ingredient that they started marketing and selling. And that's 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.320 why we have it today, and that's why everybody believes 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.960 that the traditional chapane sushi ingredim but it's not at all. 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:11.360 And so once I realized this, I started asking this, well, 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:13.480 what what would you have? You know, what's the more 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.680 old fashioned other sushi ingredients besides tuna, And there's all 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:19.679 these other things that they know how to prepare and 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.160 serve that are so interesting to eat. So to answer 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.000 your question, I just don't eat blue intuna anymore at all. 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.280 In fact, I find my sushi eating experience has become 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.600 much more interesting as a result, because there's all these 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.919 other local um seasonal ingredients and smaller fish and shellfish 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:39.000 and weird things that are just much more fun and interesting. 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:41.160 And there's some ships who are starting to get back 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.560 to that now and it's really cool to see happening. 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:46.840