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Speaker 1: This is the Ben and Ashley I almost famous podcast

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Speaker 1: with iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: It's almost famous podcast, and well today.

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Speaker 3: I'm here with one of my favorite people in the world, Ashley. Hello, Hi, Ben.

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Speaker 4: So happy to have us back together.

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Speaker 5: It's nice weeks of us not too long together, it's

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Speaker 5: too long.

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Speaker 2: We have a really special episode today, Ashley, you want

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Speaker 2: to tell everybody who we have on and why. Maybe

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Speaker 2: I think a little background to why they're here, like

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Speaker 2: where why this is now could be interesting.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I'm so excited to have our guests on today.

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Speaker 5: It is Chad Culchin and Lizzie Pace from the Game

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Speaker 5: of Roses podcast and they're the authors of How to

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Speaker 5: Win the Bachelor, which is something that Teresa you said

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Speaker 5: kind of the Golden Bachelor to possibly win the game

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Speaker 5: because your whole thing, guys, is that you think that

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Speaker 5: the Bachelor is not fundamentally about love.

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Speaker 6: It is a sport, That's correct.

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Speaker 7: Are you saying that you don't?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, listen. Also, just off the top, I want to

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Speaker 6: say this is an honor for us because both of

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Speaker 6: you are two of the greatest players who've ever lived. Acually, obviously,

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Speaker 6: you have revolutionized the tier play game that two on

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Speaker 6: one date that you had in the bad Lands against

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Speaker 6: Kelsey Poe, maybe one of the most dangerous villains we've

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Speaker 6: ever seen in our beloved game of all time.

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Speaker 3: I think you know what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 6: Don't get me started.

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Speaker 5: He even sounds like yourn ESPN commentary right now.

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Speaker 6: I mean, look to us, it is a sport, and

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Speaker 6: we wrote this book called How to Win the Bachelor.

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Speaker 6: It's kind of like the money Ball of Bachelor. It's

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Speaker 6: really based on mathematical metrics of what a player can

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Speaker 6: do in any given situation. And we're not saying that

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Speaker 6: love isn't involved. We're saying it very much is so too.

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Speaker 6: Is a very rote format created by producers that you

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Speaker 6: have to navigate to make it to the end of

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Speaker 6: that game, especially if you want to win the ring,

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Speaker 6: especially if you want to find love. But uh yeah,

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Speaker 6: Gary accused Teresa of reading our book or being found

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Speaker 6: out reading our book while she was in the mansion.

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Speaker 6: But I don't know how true that is. She claims

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Speaker 6: that wasn't true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say, has that been confirmed before

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Speaker 2: we like nail it down and say it happened.

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Speaker 6: She went on Dear Shandy and said that she had

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Speaker 6: like a trial on Audible and listened to the first chapter.

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Speaker 6: That's all she would come clean about.

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Speaker 4: Do we have to make this like a wrong reasons thing?

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Speaker 3: Like if you've read exact you can't be there.

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Speaker 7: I would say it makes sense to go read a

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Speaker 7: book called how to Win a Bachelor when you're going

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Speaker 7: on the Bachelor. Why does it have to be for

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Speaker 7: the wrong reasons?

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Speaker 3: I really one.

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Speaker 2: I think we're going to dive in and have a

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Speaker 2: really fun conversation today because there's a lot of questions.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you that you probably have studied

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Speaker 2: better than Ashley and I. But I read Sean Lowe's

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Speaker 2: book before, like on the plane to be the Bachelor see.

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Speaker 4: And I read Courny R.

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Speaker 7: Robertson's big reveal how dare you study?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? How dare you get prepared?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 3: And I remember my reasoning obviously, I wanted to do

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Speaker 3: well at this thing. I guess I.

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Speaker 2: Don't remember if it was before as the Bachelor. On

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Speaker 2: The Bachelor it was one of the two. But this

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Speaker 2: was such a mystery world at the time that you

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Speaker 2: get signed up for this thing and you're flying to

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Speaker 2: LA to maybe be a part of it. For almost

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Speaker 2: three months, you have no clue what you're walking into,

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Speaker 2: and for me it was this. I have a lot

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Speaker 2: of questions. Does anybody have any answers? Yeah, and looking

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Speaker 2: for any answers possible. I have no problem with people

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Speaker 2: preparing for the show. I do think though the motivation

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Speaker 2: behind preparing could become the issue.

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Speaker 6: But that motivation. At this point in reality TV media

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Speaker 6: TV production, no one is going on any reality show

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Speaker 6: without the primary motivation being fame or at least being

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Speaker 6: an equal motivation to finding love, especially in all these

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Speaker 6: dating formats, because you see what can happen, especially now

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Speaker 6: in Love Island USA. You can walk out of a

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Speaker 6: good season's performance with five six million followers on whatever platform,

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Speaker 6: and you're making tons of money. That's the primary motivation.

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Speaker 6: And if you find somebody to date for six months

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Speaker 6: or maybe even mary, great, that's a great, like kind

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Speaker 6: of added bonus.

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Speaker 7: At least at this point, I feel like Ashley was

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Speaker 7: actually one of the first Bachelor influencers ever.

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Speaker 3: Arguably, let's blame this trend on Ashley. I really want

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Speaker 3: to blame it on a.

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Speaker 4: Very lucky.

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Speaker 5: We were cast the perfect time, Very Lucky.

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Speaker 6: Come on, you're one of the greatest players who's ever

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Speaker 6: played this game, hands down to it you have a ninth.

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Speaker 5: Ok, all right, I will admit like there is there

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Speaker 5: is some strategy to my game afterward, but in the moment,

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Speaker 5: I don't know if there ever was.

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Speaker 6: Your audition tape was work.

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Speaker 7: I was strategic the entire time.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You knew the game intrinsically,

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Speaker 6: you had watched every season.

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Speaker 7: That's communication helps.

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Speaker 6: You understand the format of it. You know what I

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Speaker 6: mean now, kind of to what you were talking about, Ben,

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Speaker 6: I've been using our book and kind of like Taylor,

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Speaker 6: making strategies for players and secretly training people to infiltrate

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Speaker 6: that game for the past four years and have had

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Speaker 6: very high levels of success kind of playing the Bachelor

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Speaker 6: from outside of it. So you know, I know that

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Speaker 6: there's kind of always this argument of like is it

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Speaker 6: for the wrong reasons? Is it for the right reasons?

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Speaker 6: Are they really there for love? And it's like some

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Speaker 6: of those players I'm training, are there Their primary reason

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Speaker 6: at least that they tell me that they want to

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Speaker 6: go in is like I do want to get married

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Speaker 6: and have kids. So I try to help them get

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Speaker 6: that objective by navigating like you're saying, Ben, this weird,

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Speaker 6: esoteric game that producers purposely keep obfuscated from people so

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Speaker 6: that you don't know what they're going to do. You

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Speaker 6: don't know what kind of manipulations they're going to pull

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Speaker 6: on you. But if you know what's likely going into

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Speaker 6: that situation, you have a much better chance of making

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Speaker 6: it through to the end.

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Speaker 2: Ashley, I'm going to let you run with this for

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Speaker 2: a bit, and I'm going to write down some questions

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Speaker 2: that come up along the way, because I feel like

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Speaker 2: we do have a lot to talk to both Chad

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Speaker 2: and Lizzie about. But I really I don't know if

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Speaker 2: we can do it together because I do think we're

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Speaker 2: going to be jumping on top of each other whole time.

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Speaker 2: So you take it away for a bit and then

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Speaker 2: I'll come in and be like, Hey, give me my space.

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Speaker 6: Guys. You one question, Ben, before we get into the

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Speaker 6: duly questions.

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Speaker 3: You can ask me anything.

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Speaker 6: What was it like to play against in season eleven

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Speaker 6: a bachelorette to play against the greatest player of all time?

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Speaker 6: Nick Vail?

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Speaker 4: Oh my, wow?

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Speaker 3: The greatest player of all time?

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Speaker 5: He is the great way we disagree if you want

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Speaker 5: his post show he is he gone four shows. In

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Speaker 5: his fourth show, he became the Bachelor. That is the

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Speaker 5: greatest player?

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Speaker 7: Or do you only need one season, Caitlin Bristow.

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Speaker 6: But he has more screen time than anybody in the

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Speaker 6: history of the game, more total roses, total kisses, total dates,

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Speaker 6: two back to back end runs in season ten and eleven,

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Speaker 6: crash the season second before Fantasy Suites, and run on

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Speaker 6: Bachelor Paradise season three. No engagement, but he did select

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Speaker 6: the jewel and then he was the Bachelor. No one

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Speaker 6: has ever done that. No one's coming close.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's sit in this first second before I hand

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Speaker 2: this off to Ashley.

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Speaker 3: Okay, would you actually.

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Speaker 2: Claim, though, that that would make him a good player,

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Speaker 2: because I feel like he went against everything you would

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Speaker 2: have said to do to get to the end by

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Speaker 2: what you just mentioned.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it's different metrics. Caitlin Brestow only needed one season

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Speaker 7: of Bachelor to become the Bachelorette. In my mind, Nick

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Speaker 7: had to keep auditioning again and again because.

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Speaker 3: He was a villain.

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Speaker 6: I think to go from villain to Bachelor is one

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Speaker 6: of the most difficult things you can possibly do in

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Speaker 6: reality television of any genre, any show, and he did

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Speaker 6: it successfully. Yes, he had to have the Redemption Tour

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Speaker 6: in season three of Paradise, but he played that perfectly

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Speaker 6: as well. And obviously it's kind of hard to argue

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Speaker 6: with his success after the show, but I think in

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Speaker 6: Game he just did more to revolution. He was the

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Speaker 6: sport than anybody else has that crashing Kaitlyn Bristo's seas

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Speaker 6: in an episode four, having sex with her before the

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Speaker 6: Fantasy Suites, making it all the way to the end,

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Speaker 6: getting Sean Booth dude not even be able to say

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Speaker 6: his name, to call him the other guy. We've just

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Speaker 6: never seen a psychological manipulation that strong. I don't think

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Speaker 6: from me, guys.

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Speaker 2: And I also think we have to know one of

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Speaker 2: the most iconic moments, and I do you know, Nick

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Speaker 2: is a friend, but I do think this is a

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Speaker 2: moment he probably looks back on goes eh that maybe

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Speaker 2: it was a little too much. Was the call out

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Speaker 2: of Andy Dorfman on the live show where she was

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Speaker 2: not prepared to have to respond to the claims and

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Speaker 2: the things that he said.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it should have.

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Speaker 2: Put him in like, should have pushed him out of

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Speaker 2: the franchise, but it made him this kind of iconic figure.

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Speaker 2: To where Caitlin brought him back on. Okay, So to

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Speaker 2: answer your question, I would say this, I was such

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Speaker 2: in a different place during that season, meaning Kitlyn and

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Speaker 2: I had such a strong friendship and such a strong

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Speaker 2: comfort with each other. I really didn't doubt that she

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Speaker 2: would keep me around a long time simply based on

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Speaker 2: the idea that she had. It kind of was everything

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Speaker 2: fell into place for me. You had two people fighting

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Speaker 2: with each other, hating each other, couldn't speak to each other,

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Speaker 2: and you had me in the middle being like, here's

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Speaker 2: the thing. I'm not gonna make life hard for anybody here.

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna stay along for as long as you

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Speaker 2: need because Caitlyn, you and I both know we're not

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Speaker 2: getting to get out at.

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Speaker 3: The end of this. But I'm down to hang.

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Speaker 2: And she kept me around. So I never really said

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Speaker 2: that to her, No, not really in those words.

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Speaker 4: It was unspoken.

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Speaker 2: Yeahs, I think Caitlyn would be Caitlyn would be fine

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Speaker 2: with me telling her telling this. We we literally had

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Speaker 2: our one on one like fantasy suite date, and one

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Speaker 2: of the first things she asked me, She'll be so

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Speaker 2: embarrassed I said this, But one of the first things

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Speaker 2: she asked me, was, uh, what do you think of

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Speaker 2: Nick and Sean? And I was like, Caitlyn, you're gonna

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Speaker 2: ask me about the two other guys while we're in

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Speaker 2: the fantasy suite and she said, I know. And I

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Speaker 2: was like, we both know. Like there's we've known this

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Speaker 2: the whole time. I'm not getting married at then of.

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Speaker 3: This to you.

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Speaker 4: But you still had fun in the fantasy suite, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We had a great time. We danced a lot. But

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Speaker 3: she's great.

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Speaker 2: I love Kaitlin, but I didn't really involve myself in

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Speaker 2: that whole thing. I mean I was really removed from it, honestly.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, you said, team Sean is what I'm gathering.

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Speaker 3: I love Sean, I love Nick.

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Speaker 2: At the time, I really just had no doubt she

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Speaker 2: was getting end up with Sean, Like there was really

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Speaker 2: no question in my mind.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Okay, Now I have to talk about one Chad.

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Speaker 5: You mentioned that you're training men. Have you trained anyone

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Speaker 5: who's gotten on the show?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, almost every season for the past four years, name drop.

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Speaker 5: Is there a contract?

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Speaker 6: Uh, there's no contract. But basically what I guess, like

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Speaker 6: Lizzie and I's backstory is that we're TV comedy writers.

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Speaker 6: That's where we met on a show ten years ago

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Speaker 6: that was on NBC called Bad Judge. And so my

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Speaker 6: kind of goal with training people has always been to

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Speaker 6: just collect a lot of interviews and stuff and training

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Speaker 6: sessions that we've had, record the zooms, record them in

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Speaker 6: person if they can be recorded in person, to maybe

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Speaker 6: sell it as like a reality show later of like

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Speaker 6: gaming the Bachelor basically. But I always make the deal

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Speaker 6: with all my players you can participate in that if

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Speaker 6: you want to. I will never out whoever I'm training,

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Speaker 6: because I know some of them are still in the system,

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Speaker 6: you know, maybe going to wind up on a paradise

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Speaker 6: or maybe going to be a bachelorette, you know that

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Speaker 6: kind of thing. So I don't want to like foul

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Speaker 6: that for them. But the two players that have come

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Speaker 6: out publicly that I have trained or Cassidy tim Brooks,

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Speaker 6: who was on Clayton Eckert season, we did an episode

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Speaker 6: of our show interviewing her about that and kind of

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Speaker 6: talking about like did the training help, did it hinder you?

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Speaker 6: Was it like just jumbling your head blah blah blah.

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Speaker 6: And then I also trained Taylor Hale, who went on

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Speaker 6: to never be on the bachelor, but one Big Brother

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Speaker 6: three or four years ago.

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Speaker 4: Oh, interesting, do the same rules apply?

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Speaker 6: Many of the same rules. Yeah. Like a PTC, for example,

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Speaker 6: is a personal tragedy card. That's when you have to

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Speaker 6: air your kind of most intimate secret about some horrible

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Speaker 6: trauma that has happened to you in your life. That

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Speaker 6: applies to all reality games. T your play replies to

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Speaker 6: all applies to all reality games, even for the right reasons,

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Speaker 6: although it's not as prominent in like game games like Survivor,

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Speaker 6: Big Brother, Traders, whatever, where you actually get kind of

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Speaker 6: rewarded for lying to people, but still the idea of

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Speaker 6: are you there for the right reasons versus the wrong reasons?

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Speaker 6: And in this kind of modern world, the wrong reasons

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Speaker 6: is always influencing. Basically, if you even say the word Instagram,

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Speaker 6: you know you get thrown under the bus, which is

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Speaker 6: interesting because our next bachelorette is literally an influencer.

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Speaker 7: There's also we say that you're playing to four audiences.

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Speaker 7: This is a big part of our of core ethos.

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Speaker 7: Is the first audience is the bachelor bachelorette who you're dating.

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Speaker 7: Second audience is the rest of the players, third is

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Speaker 7: the producer's Fourth is like bachel Nation or Big Brother Nation,

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Speaker 7: and you're kind of having to juggle all of those

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Speaker 7: at once. And I would say that that really applies

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Speaker 7: in Big Brother. You don't so much have the first audience.

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Speaker 7: You're not trying to romantically get with someone, or maybe

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Speaker 7: you are, I would say you should, But the rest

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Speaker 7: of them apply.

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Speaker 4: There are a couple of different ways of winning.

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Speaker 5: I think in your guys's definition, you could be like me,

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Speaker 5: where I like literally never really want anything.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I guess I technically won Bachelor Winter Games,

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Speaker 4: which is it was.

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Speaker 5: Silly, but I understood the trajectory in which they were

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Speaker 5: going with me.

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Speaker 3: Do you still view it as winning Bachelor?

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Speaker 4: I never I know that it's it was.

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Speaker 5: It was sweet because it was the producer's way of

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Speaker 5: being Like Ashley was never the Bachelorette. She would have

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Speaker 5: been a very polarizing bachelorette. Let's give her this little

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Speaker 5: you know, two weeks spin off the thing, and then

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Speaker 5: there's winning in the in the way that Nick wins.

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Speaker 7: I would say, you won, you won Bachelor Paradise. You won.

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Speaker 7: You're now the first person to ever be a housewife

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Speaker 7: from Bachelor, which is like, in my mind, I'm obsessed

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Speaker 7: with the housewife, So congratulations.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that is I mean I would say this in

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Speaker 6: reference to like your time in game.

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Speaker 4: I think you were It's different from Ben's.

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Speaker 5: I wanted to bring this up because like there's Nick,

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Speaker 5: there's Ben, there's like Hannah Brown, there's Caitlin, and like

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Speaker 5: I'm just thinking about all these different ways of winning.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, I think you were like one of the first

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Speaker 6: players really like ahead of your time, playing a modern,

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Speaker 6: modern game back when it was kind of in its

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Speaker 6: golden era, still in at like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen era.

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Speaker 6: What your focus seemed to be or maybe this is

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Speaker 6: just how it played out, was being like one of

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Speaker 6: the players that really popped out of the show. So

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Speaker 6: you finished in ninth place, but that doesn't matter. You've

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Speaker 6: got a giant, successful podcast, millions of followers, you're an influencer,

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Speaker 6: you come back into the group dating format, you're kind

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Speaker 6: of ever present in the culture of the show, even

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Speaker 6: though you never want a ring or a crown, And

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Speaker 6: that really is like where modern reality play is at.

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Speaker 6: It's like Carolyn Weiger on last season of Traders, she

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Speaker 6: didn't come close to winning that game, but she was

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Speaker 6: probably the most memorable player and as a result, tons

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Speaker 6: of Instagram followers, tons of TikTok followers. She's in all

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Speaker 6: these other reality shows now, and so it's in the

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Speaker 6: modern reality game where we have what we call third

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Speaker 6: wave reality TV, which is like a Trader's where they

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Speaker 6: take people from different reality disciplines to go head to head.

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Speaker 6: Will a housewife beat a Big Brother player? Will bachelor

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Speaker 6: overcome survivor? You know? Those shows are where you're trying

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Speaker 6: to get to so that you can exist in that

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Speaker 6: ecosphere for like a decade probably I think into the

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Speaker 6: near future. And that doesn't really mean that you need

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Speaker 6: to win any of your rookie shows. It just means

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Speaker 6: you need to be entertaining.

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Speaker 3: I let me jump in here for a second.

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Speaker 4: Ashley, Yeah, I'm so entertained.

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Speaker 5: Rookie shows.

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Speaker 2: No, let me jump in here for a second. Because

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Speaker 2: Chad and Lizzy, I do think they're I need a

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Speaker 2: clear definition from the two of you, because I agree

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Speaker 2: with you and everything you're saying, But I do think

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Speaker 2: the gameplay of it is interesting when you bring up

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Speaker 2: an Ashley, because what I love about Ashley, what I

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Speaker 2: like respect about her. Why we've done this show for

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Speaker 2: ten years together and it has been a success. I

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Speaker 2: have only viewed Ashley as the most authentic player to

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Speaker 2: ever play. I don't think she was ever were for me.

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Speaker 2: There were moments where I was like, what is the

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Speaker 2: right or wrong decision here? How is this gonna?

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Speaker 5: Like?

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Speaker 2: How do I navigate the moment I'm in? Especially as

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Speaker 2: the Bachelor, It's all you do is navigating moments right

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Speaker 2: or wrong. For me, I've always seen Ashley in my

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Speaker 2: real life when cameras aren't going or when she's on

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Speaker 2: television as authentically herself, which in my opinion, means she

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Speaker 2: would be dominant in any game she plays because she's

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Speaker 2: polarizing and she jumps off the camera at you. But

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Speaker 2: to call her a player assumes I think that there

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Speaker 2: is some type of strategy, and Ashley could tell me

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Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. I don't think she's ever had a

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Speaker 2: strategy when she goes on a show in her life

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Speaker 2: other than maybe one that she was uncomfortable going on.

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Speaker 2: But Bachelor is like I'm diving in and being myself

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Speaker 2: from the moment I get there.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I think, whether you have a strategy or not,

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Speaker 6: if you step on the baseball field and they put

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Speaker 6: a in your hand. You got to swing it, you know.

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Speaker 6: And that's what Bachelor is. It's like when you step

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Speaker 6: out of that limit, or really a game starts when

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Speaker 6: you start applying or get nominated, because the producers are

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Speaker 6: building an archetypal kind of image of who they want

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Speaker 6: you to be in the show. The good girl in

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Speaker 6: your case, the virgin Ashlely, the nice guy next door

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Speaker 6: maybe for you, Ben or unlovable kind of became your

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Speaker 6: you know, your Moniker. But there are plenty of players

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Speaker 6: Taylor Frankie Paul is one of them, I think, who

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Speaker 6: are not overtly strategizing. They're not intellectualizing it. They are

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Speaker 6: just natural, raw, kind of forces of nature. I think

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Speaker 6: you were that as well, Ashley, just like Ben was saying.

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Speaker 6: But it doesn't matter like what your personal play style is.

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Speaker 6: There are some very cerebral players. There are some who

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Speaker 6: are just flying by the seat of their pants. Still though,

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Speaker 6: all of those different play styles are playing in the

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Speaker 6: same game, both against and with each other, at least

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Speaker 6: in Bachelor, and you have to navigate it. You have to,

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Speaker 6: Like you knew what a two on one was before

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Speaker 6: you went on that one with Kelsey Poe, right, you

395
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Speaker 6: knew what like a group date is or a one

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Speaker 6: on one date is. These things are not normal in

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Speaker 6: everyday human life. These are structures that the game has made.

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Speaker 6: And if you walk into the game knowing a little

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Speaker 6: bit about like the order of how they'll happen, what

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Speaker 6: is the kind of structure of a season? When do

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Speaker 6: I get to hometowns? Even that is preparing for something

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Speaker 6: that is a manufactured game.

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Speaker 3: That's fair, That's good. Okay.

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Speaker 7: I'll never forget when I actually put on the princess

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Speaker 7: dress when another player was going on the pretty woman date.

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Speaker 4: Like I will say that was very thought through. I

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Speaker 4: thought that was hilarious. I was like, let's see here

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Speaker 4: and let's.

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Speaker 5: Be very tug and cheek and yeah, the other girls

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Speaker 5: did not recognize that, which was hilarious.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I mean that's part of like what at least I

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Speaker 6: try to train all my players, is like, if there's

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Speaker 6: a camera on, you do something, and I think like

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Speaker 6: that that moment we call that mansion free play antics

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Speaker 6: when they're off on a data a one on one. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: if there's a camera in the mansion or wherever they

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Speaker 6: have you, you know, in a hotel, if you're international

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Speaker 6: or whatever, do something, do a song, do a dance,

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Speaker 6: make something up, get into a weird conversation about UFOs, whatever,

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Speaker 6: just so that they have that footage because they're always

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Speaker 6: going to cut back to the house. They do that

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Speaker 6: in every date to see, like what are the other

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Speaker 6: players doing? Be the at least the star of that

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Speaker 6: little show, that little scene.

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Speaker 7: You know, if you're crying eating a corn on the

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Speaker 7: cob in the princess dress, they're not going to use that.

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Speaker 5: I thought it was I had, you know, I had

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Speaker 5: different relationships with the producers, and I had one producer

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Speaker 5: that I knew that I would go to for like

431
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Speaker 5: playing like dress.

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Speaker 4: Up moments, and we had the best time.

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Speaker 5: Like we were literally just gonna sit at home and

434
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Speaker 5: like sit around the campfire for like the zillion times.

435
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Speaker 5: I was like, let's just like do a little skit anyway.

436
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Speaker 5: I want to know who you guys think is the

437
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Speaker 5: best lead ever. Because we're sitting next to Ben Higgins

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Speaker 5: and now I'll hand it over to Bed before we

439
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,919
Speaker 5: get into it or rundown questions he can ask all

440
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Speaker 5: his personals because you know, you guys fed my ego

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Speaker 5: a little bit.

442
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, you're feeding ours just by talking to us honestly,

443
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't know I or sorry, we do

444
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 6: you want us to answer who we think the best

445
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 6: leads are.

446
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's okay, you don't have to include Ben

447
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 5: in there, but like I think that when you think

448
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 5: about historically that he's definitely like probably the Prince Charming Bachelor.

449
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 6: Well, the bigger thing that you did, Ben was was

450
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 6: do what we call love level four, which is an

451
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 6: I love you or I'm in love with you to

452
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,959
Speaker 6: your two finalists before the final rows ceremony, which had

453
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 6: never happened. That I think, for better or worse, and

454
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,919
Speaker 6: everybody can have their own opinion on this, kicked the

455
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,120
Speaker 6: game into a direction that we're we're there now where

456
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 6: now almost every season you're seeing multiple love level fours

457
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 6: coming from the lead to multiple players, and that idea

458
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 6: of like a lead cannot tell anybody that they are

459
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 6: at love level four and tell the very final moment

460
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 6: at the altar. Basically that has been shattered in Season

461
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 6: twenty Bachelor, then season and.

462
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 4: Except for mel who had love for no one.

463
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 6: How dare you?

464
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 3: How dare you for his shoes?

465
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 6: Man? That was a rough season. That was a rough season,

466
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:14,719
Speaker 6: ladies and gentlemen.

467
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 7: Yeah, I would say Ben is definitely up there. I

468
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 7: feel like you're kind of one of the golden children

469
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 7: who keeps getting asked back over and over again, whether

470
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 7: you seem happy to be there or not. Like in

471
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:33,919
Speaker 7: Winter Games, I think you came off as, like we

472
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 7: discussed for tr R for the Right Reasons as the

473
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 7: primary like thing you have to convey in the game,

474
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 7: and I think you come off as one of the

475
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 7: most for the Right Reasons leads of all time. I

476
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 7: have a soft spot for Charlie O'Connell Bachelor season seven,

477
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 7: who made the show his own, made them move to

478
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 7: New York, picked up Chris Harrison, did all sorts of

479
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 7: like really extravagant plays that we had not seen before.

480
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 7: It had been mostly you know, very by the book

481
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 7: up until that point.

482
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've ever seen that, so I'll have to watch that.

483
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 7: But Caitlin Bristow for me, is the best player of

484
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:21,239
Speaker 7: all time. I think that she just was such a

485
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 7: star in a season of stars mind you on Prince

486
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 7: Farmington Crystal season. I think that she's you know, she's

487
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 7: gone on to have a very successful post game career

488
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,719
Speaker 7: without getting you know, the villain edit that maybe the

489
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 7: person Chad's about to say did get.

490
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 6: I don't think Vile is the best lead. I think

491
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 6: he was the best player. I think the best lead

492
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 6: of all time. I have kind of two One is

493
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 6: based on the season that was turned in that I

494
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 6: think in a lot of cases, seasons are defined by

495
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 6: their players, but sometimes the lead can really be like

496
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 6: the most important player in a season, and I think

497
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 6: Hannah Brown was that in Bachelorett fifteen. So many iconic

498
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 6: moments she I think raised the level of play of

499
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 6: the players on her season, kind of like Michael Jordan

500
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 6: did with the Bulls when he was you know, back

501
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,479
Speaker 6: in the day. I think you got performances out of Tyler, Cameron, Pilot,

502
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 6: p jed Wyatt, even Luke Parker that you don't get

503
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 6: if she's not the Bachelorette. And then I would say,

504
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 6: in terms of sacrifice to the game, like how much

505
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 6: have you left on the field and given to this thing?

506
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 6: I think Rachel Lindsay is far and away at the

507
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 6: top of that list. I think what she was asked

508
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,239
Speaker 6: to do and repeatedly asked to do even after her

509
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 6: season as a lead, was insane, and she just kept

510
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 6: doing it and you know, even to the end when

511
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 6: she did that extra interview with Chris Harrison that changed

512
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 6: the franchise forever. You know, she is like, I think,

513
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 6: in the top three or five most important people who

514
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 6: has ever come through this franchise. And I think her season,

515
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 6: if you go back and rewatch it, there were just

516
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 6: so many insane things they did to her, like putting

517
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 6: Lee Garrett on that season and then having him and

518
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 6: Kenny King kind of go head to head in like

519
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 6: a racism argument that they had to solve that the

520
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 6: men tell all, it was just wild that season. So

521
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 6: those are my two answers.

522
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree.

523
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 2: I think that though, was also a turning point for

524
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: the franchise where they asked they they were being asked

525
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: from the public to broach and approach the issue and

526
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 2: make the show more diverse, and so the show said, okay,

527
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 2: let's do that. And then they, in my opinion, went

528
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 2: way too far too quickly, like instead of making it

529
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 2: a really beautiful story and something that hey, we've heard

530
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: from you, they did they asked Rachel to carry the

531
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 2: weight of these conversations in the midst of a season,

532
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: and it felt it felt ugly, honestly it just felt

533
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: disgusting at times, and I think they never full They've

534
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: never really adapted to a healthy place of where people

535
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: can have conversations and understand and grow and be exposed to.

536
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: They just kind of like forced it down everybody's throats

537
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 2: in a way that made Rachel be the spokesperson and

538
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: that felt weird.

539
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 3: It felt very odd. Yeah, and I think we grapped

540
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: onto that.

541
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 2: I do think though a lot of the names you mentioned,

542
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 2: and I think it's where the show and I want

543
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 2: to hear your opinion of this now. I think it's

544
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: where the show has fallen flat is. Back in the

545
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 2: day they had contestants, like in Ashley, they had leads,

546
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: and I would if I was a lead today. I

547
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: don't think maybe I'm as popular as I was when

548
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: I came on, because every season that was something uniquely different.

549
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 3: Right.

550
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: You go from Caitlin Bristow, the one sneaking out of

551
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: her hotel room and you know, getting people to fight

552
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: over her, and you know all the like funny comments

553
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: that were made from Caitlyn to me, you know, you're

554
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 2: more like, hey, that's just the guy that I would

555
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 2: in my neighborhood. To the Nick Files, who like, yes,

556
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 2: had the villain edits and was a villain for years

557
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 2: and people were intrigued by what is he going to

558
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 2: do and how messys is gonna get. They mixed it

559
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: up a lot back then, and now it feels like

560
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: we've gone in this kind of like rhythmatic. Every season

561
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: kind of has the same thing. The leads really can't

562
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 2: even talk to the contestants. They're not really good at it.

563
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 2: They don't ask any questions leading up to a mel

564
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 2: who probably will be the tipping point, the turning point

565
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: hopefully for us to say, let's get back to something

566
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: maybe a little messier and more interesting, because we've gone

567
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: in this like very boring status quo for so long.

568
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 5: Let's just throw in that Joey was a great peak

569
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 5: in the middle of some valley.

570
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think, I mean for my money, and I

571
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 6: could give a two hour long college dissertation on this.

572
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 6: But it started in Bachelor season eighteen, which I believe

573
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 6: was twenty fourteen one, Pablo Galavus, the first real true

574
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 6: villain Bachelor. I think the producer tier got kind of

575
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 6: a taste of blood in their mouth with that season,

576
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 6: and they were like, every lead, we're gonna shot on them.

577
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 6: We're gonna make them stupid or ridiculous fools or just

578
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 6: like straight villains. And after all Gale left, he knew

579
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 6: how to kind of ride that line. When he left

580
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 6: after Colt Underwood season, there was like this power vacuum

581
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 6: and you can kind of see it in Pilot Pete

582
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 6: season where they're really turning those players against each other.

583
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 6: They bring Chase Rice in on Victoria Fuller's one on

584
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 6: one day to be like, here's the guy you had

585
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 6: a little fleeing with. He's singing you a song on

586
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 6: your one one day. You know, they were doing really

587
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 6: malicious and then you know, you saw this kind of

588
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 6: struggle for who's going to be the top dog. And

589
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 6: in that struggle, I think all these producers thought we

590
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 6: need to wreck the players. That's what the show is about,

591
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 6: turn against them. And now we're in this kind of

592
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 6: like post that era where maybe Scott Teddy is going

593
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 6: to turn ship around. We don't know, but it's a

594
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 6: whole new series of producers that are doing things completely differently.

595
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 6: But also I would say Love Island has taken its

596
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 6: toll on our beloved game as well, because I mean,

597
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 6: I know when players first come to me. If I

598
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 6: think I can get them on Love Island, That's where

599
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 6: I'm telling them to go. I don't tell them to

600
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 6: go to Bachelor anymore. It's not like the pre eminent

601
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 6: dating format.

602
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: Let me dive into a few kind of more rapid

603
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 2: fire questions for you and Lizzie Chad before we kind

604
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 2: of get back on track to maybe a larger conversation

605
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 2: about the Golden and what you didn't think was great

606
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: about this season With all the I mean so many

607
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 2: seasons of the show, so many contestants coming through the

608
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: formula up until maybe when you know, Scott Teddy takes over.

609
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: We won't really know what that's going to look like,

610
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 2: but the formula has always stayed reasonably the same. I

611
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: do think Along Gail brought an interesting mixing into it.

612
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: He was an intellect and he knew how to manipulate

613
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,239
Speaker 2: the people a little bit better than most, and so

614
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 2: he got a lot out of the contestants he did.

615
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 3: He was great at it.

616
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 4: I literally call him father in my phone. He is

617
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 4: father along Gail, Oh, my god.

618
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 2: Father Gail Ashley and I still get confused this day

619
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 2: when we break down a season and you have contestants

620
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: making the same stupid choices that they've made for the

621
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: last twenty plus years of this show, that they know

622
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: is going to be a death sentence to their time

623
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: on the show. So my question for the two of

624
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: you again, these need to be a little more rapid

625
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 2: fire because we are going to run out of time here.

626
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: But why do contestants still make the decisions they make

627
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: knowing that it is not going to be good for

628
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: them long term?

629
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 7: Lizzy, you mean like mistakes like tattling.

630
00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: Tattling, pulling the lead four times in one night, getting

631
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: in big fights with all the other women in the

632
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: house and saying, no, I'm just here for the lead

633
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: and I'm not here to make friends, And you're like, well,

634
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: that's never works out for anybody. Why do you continue

635
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: to do this when you know this isn't going to

636
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: help you with the lead long term?

637
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,959
Speaker 7: Anyways, I think there has been a little father whispering

638
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 7: in their ear. Oh, go pull them again, We're gonna

639
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 7: do more time. Hannah and Slush pulled them three times

640
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 7: on night one and it worked out for her. She

641
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 7: won the ring.

642
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 6: That could be you and they also, though are in

643
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 6: some cases it's way more transactional than that. It's not

644
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 6: even an insinuation. It's like do this steal and you'll

645
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 6: come to paradise. That happens, you know, and it doesn't

646
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 6: happen to every player. High level players, players that they

647
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 6: bring into the season knowing they're going to make an

648
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 6: end run and we're going to have you in hometowns.

649
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 6: They don't do that. They don't like foul the four

650
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 6: tr rnis of their season's journey. But players that are

651
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 6: like in that bottom half, players who are going to

652
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 6: be like mid season floaters, and they're like, how do

653
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 6: I get to paradise. I'll do anything. You can literally

654
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 6: just exchange stuff with the producers sometimes and they'll be like, yeah, okay,

655
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 6: we need to go do this crazy thing. Blow this up,

656
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 6: get in a fight with them, and we'll bring you

657
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 6: to paradise.

658
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 7: People have been given scripts for women, tell all of

659
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 7: like attack this person.

660
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 2: I never saw those types of things. They might exist.

661
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: There is a line and you two know this, and

662
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: this is something that I don't even know if I'm

663
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: contractually obligated to say anything anymore. This is a game show.

664
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: It falls under the game show category. So the level

665
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: of manipulation and hey, say this and say that is

666
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: limited to none because you cannot coher so manipulated game

667
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 2: show legally, and so there is unique ways the producers

668
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: do it. And that's why when people ask is it scripted?

669
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: I always say never. I never saw a script I

670
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 2: did see I did have conversations about, hey, what do

671
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: you think you should do in this moment?

672
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, but my response.

673
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: Has always been when people ask, the choice always to me.

674
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: So the good and the bad always laid on my shoulders. Yes,

675
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: they could say, hey, go do this, walk into that

676
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: room and steal her from the Shan Boos, and I'm like,

677
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 2: but she doesn't want to leave Shan Booth like. She

678
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: wants to hang out with him a lot longer. She

679
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: wants to thing out with me. I'm not going to

680
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: take her from him.

681
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 3: She's good.

682
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 2: The decisions always fall down to the players, and so

683
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 2: I think, I mean, I think without filtering it, it would

684
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: be the players that are able to be told what

685
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: to do. Is where does that come from them? Is

686
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 2: that just a desire to please? Is that a desire

687
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: because they don't know the show.

688
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 6: I'll tell you something that I tell players very early

689
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 6: on is like the biggest skill you can have is

690
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 6: on night one, understanding where you fall in the order.

691
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 6: Are you one of the final three or not? Because

692
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 6: that decision, as I'm sure you all know, is pretty

693
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 6: much made in the first week.

694
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 4: How would you be able to tell a place?

695
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 3: It's pretty easy ask you're going to.

696
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 4: Be able you're going to be in top three?

697
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: Did you know you were going to be in top three?

698
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 5: Because it sounds like Chad's trying to say that if

699
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 5: you signed up, you should be able to tell if

700
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 5: you're gonna follow the top three on night one?

701
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 3: WHOA if you can.

702
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 6: That's a difficult skill to have, but yes, you need

703
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 6: to be able to tell, like am I gonna make

704
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 6: it to the end or not? If you believe that

705
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 6: answer is no. And there are certain telltale signs that

706
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 6: you can see if you're about to be put in

707
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 6: a rivalry. You can see if they're making you the villain.

708
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 6: There's certain things that those at least used to I

709
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 6: don't know how Scott Tedy's gonna run his crew, but

710
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 6: it used to be there were certain things you could

711
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 6: tell almost immediately if you weren't in the top three.

712
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 7: Which producer you're paired.

713
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 6: With all of that. Yeah, the producer hierarchy was an

714
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 6: important piece of that, which now is like doesn't exist.

715
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 6: But the basic idea is, if you know you're not

716
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 6: in the top three, then you're just scrambling to stay

717
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 6: in the show as long as possible so that maybe

718
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 6: you can make a meaningful appearance, get invited to paradise

719
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 6: and see where that gets you. And so I hear

720
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 6: what you're saying, Ben about like it's always down to

721
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 6: the players and the individual person gets to make the choice.

722
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,479
Speaker 6: But I don't think that's exactly the experience of every

723
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 6: player who has come through this system, you know. I

724
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 6: know Vile kind of has ideas like that and says

725
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 6: a lot of things like that on his podcast, Like

726
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 6: because he's been at such a high level of it,

727
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 6: he kind of understands how it all works. But it's

728
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 6: like it doesn't work like that for everybody. Yeah, then

729
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 6: that much I can say.

730
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 4: Always thought that Ben and Nick all they always have

731
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 4: said it.

732
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 5: They've said that over and over again, both of them,

733
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 5: and I am like, I don't know, I've felt far

734
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 5: more influenced than the two of them. Apparently I didn't

735
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 5: have my feet as firmly on the ground as you guys,

736
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 5: more maturity.

737
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 7: Coming from you two though, Ashley, do you feel like

738
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 7: there was you had more opportunity to do what you

739
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 7: wanted on Housewives than Bachelor?

740
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 4: Well, obviously I can't speak very much.

741
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 5: I have two words that I think I am okay

742
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 5: with saying I think I was more aware and wiser

743
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 5: while shooting Housewives.

744
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 2: Let me also speak to this a little bit because Ashley,

745
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 2: I think when you were on the show and there

746
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: was a moment in Winter Games where they asked me

747
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: to produce Ashley even because of our relationship, and she

748
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: knew it.

749
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 3: This wasn't a secret to her.

750
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: She was of course, this was very clear, and I

751
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: was like, hey, can Ben Ashley wants to talk about

752
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 2: this relationship. I think you could be the person to

753
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: do it with her it and so I did on

754
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: you know in an interview, Ashley was easily influenced and

755
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 2: also had a lot of trust. I didn't have the

756
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: trust that Ashley had. She saw these people have they

757
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 2: have my best interests in mind, and that's how you

758
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: went into the show where I want to Daddy Yeah,

759
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 2: and he's my father's weird.

760
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 5: I still stay too that I'm not saying that applies

761
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 5: to everyone. But I think that my friendship were the producers.

762
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 5: I don't think that they were ever going to screw

763
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 5: me over entirely. I thought they're gonna have me have

764
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 5: a rough episode here or there, but like I think, ultimately,

765
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 5: and this is what ALONG tell me throughout it. He's like, listen,

766
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 5: just listen to him, Just trust me, just trust me.

767
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 5: And I would trust him, and look it paid off.

768
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 6: I'll tell you one anecdote of a producer who will

769
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 6: remain nameless and is probably not even there anymore, about

770
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 6: a tactic used that to me was like the perfect

771
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 6: example of why you can never trust them even if

772
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,760
Speaker 6: they're your friends. This was early on in a casting process.

773
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 6: This person sent a player that I was training a

774
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 6: picture just some random night, a text message of the

775
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 6: producer out at a bar drinking and said, when all

776
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 6: this is over, we got to hang out and go

777
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 6: get drinks. And that was gaining the trust of this player,

778
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 6: right maybe it was a year later. Two years later

779
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 6: I have another player received that exact same image and

780
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 6: text from that exact same producer. So this was just

781
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 6: a standard trust building manipulation, And to me, that's like

782
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 6: that's before they even went in the limo. That's before

783
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 6: they were even on the show, like an early phases

784
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 6: of casting, just to get them to like say more

785
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 6: stuff or do whatever they wanted in these casting interviews,

786
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 6: you know, And I'm like, that's who you're dealing with.

787
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 5: I totally agree, there's some that cannot be trusted. But

788
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 5: I felt like, after at least my first season, I

789
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 5: felt like I knew that I that they cared about

790
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 5: my humanity.

791
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 4: I don't know, maybe I'm still naive.

792
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 3: You're still naive. You're very naive. Yeah, you're very naive.

793
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 3: And but here's what you have going for you.

794
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: And you and I have talked about this so many times,

795
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: especially when we were still making more appearances on the show.

796
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 2: The thing that you have uniquely different about you is

797
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: they could tell you to do something. There's no possible

798
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 2: way they can ruin you, Ashley, because of who you

799
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: are as a person. So your authentic self, no, you're

800
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 2: your authentic self is going to have the internal boundaries

801
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: to not cross a line. You came very close with

802
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 2: Kelsey Poe that could have really backfired on you.

803
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 3: It didn't.

804
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 2: It didn't because of how the show came off, and

805
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 2: what the storyline was going into it, and how lovable

806
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: you are. But it's going to be impossible to ruin

807
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: you on any show because of who you are. Now

808
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: there's other people and we say this, and when a

809
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 2: league calls me before the season, my only piece of

810
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: advice for them, because I don't really have that much,

811
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 2: is stay true to yourself right down. You know this, Ashley,

812
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: But I tell the lead, write down right now, before

813
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 2: the show ever starts, before the magazine start getting printed,

814
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 2: before the media starts getting into it. Write down who

815
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 2: you are and what matters to you right now, because

816
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 2: when the show's done, you need to look back at

817
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 2: that and use this whole thing to just.

818
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 3: Push you forward, but not take away who you are.

819
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 3: Same thing's true during the show. When you're a contestant

820
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 3: in filming, don't change yourself to try to make the

821
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 3: camera like you. But you're just likable, so it's gonna

822
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 3: work for you. But you're just you also have this

823
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 3: like element of like, you know, emotion and your story

824
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 3: and that help. Now to go back to the questions, Yeah,

825
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 3: you've mentioned good players and bad players, Lizzie and Chad.

826
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 3: You've gone through good leads and bad leads. I think

827
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 3: we need to nail down for the listener though when

828
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 3: you speak to this, what exactly are you saying what

829
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 3: makes a good player and a bad player? What?

830
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 2: I guess what makes a good player would be the

831
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: better question here? Or a good lead? How are you

832
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: quantifying that?

833
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 7: I would say that they are navigating all of these

834
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 7: different audiences in a way that gets some screen time,

835
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 7: that is tonally the direction that they're going for. I

836
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 7: do think it's possible, Like a Courtney Robertson, for instance,

837
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 7: she got a villainetta on her season, but it worked

838
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 7: for her. She ended up getting the ring. I don't

839
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,959
Speaker 7: know if that's possible to do anymore at this point

840
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 7: because when they villainize people, they tend to really villainize

841
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 7: them at this point. But yeah, I would say leaning

842
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 7: into what you're talking about with Ashley, that authenticity to

843
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,280
Speaker 7: bring out the parts of you that are good TV,

844
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 7: that are going to get the people who are watching

845
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 7: to identify with you and want to follow your story afterwards.

846
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 7: Because a huge metric that we use is Instagram TikTok

847
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 7: followers of who gets the most from each week, who's

848
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 7: able to do the stuff to get the screen time

849
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 7: to be in the document, and that can include things

850
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 7: like not doing things that they're just not allowed to

851
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 7: show on ABC, you know, like singing songs that they

852
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:45,280
Speaker 7: would never be allowed to share. It's a very complicated game.

853
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I yes, this makes sense. Okay, we

854
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: have so many questions for Chad and Lizzie that I

855
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 2: think this is going to be a good place to

856
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 2: take a pause and we'll come back very soon.

857
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: Follow the Ben and Ashley Almost Famous podcasts on iHeartRadio

858
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.