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Speaker 1: What what now? That's how we're starting the episode, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: and then God bless you, and then this everything. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: you've done way worse. So I'm like, cool with it.

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Speaker 1: How are we doing the day? How's everybody? Who are we?

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Speaker 1: Where are we? This is behind the bastards? And today

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Speaker 1: fucking sucks? It is uh? Are you? Are you? When?

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Speaker 1: When were you born? Are we? All? Was real older

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Speaker 1: than all of us? Yeah, I'm not that old. Jesus man,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember when my God, Yeah, yeah, I'm not

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Speaker 1: that old. I'm I'm an eighties child, I'll put it

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Speaker 1: that way. So, yeah, yeah, this is the first day

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Speaker 1: of all of our lives that we're according this. It'll

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Speaker 1: be coming out a bit later, but the day we're

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Speaker 1: recording this is the first day of all of our

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Speaker 1: lives that Rovie Wade is no longer a thing. I

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Speaker 1: just looked up. I should have known that. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: thought you thought he was older than I get it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know when when when? I don't remember when

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Speaker 1: things medicine ages you. I'm a fucking rack. I get

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Speaker 1: you're a doctor. That means apologize to doctor who as

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Speaker 1: a doctor, which means he's an adult and all adults

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Speaker 1: are the same age. Yeah, but we have feelings to Robert,

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Speaker 1: I know, well you're just so you know what's really

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Speaker 1: messed up? What's that? The history? Yes, yeah, that's what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about today. Um, this is gonna be a

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Speaker 1: rough one. Uh. I don't have anything else to say that.

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Speaker 1: This is gonna be a rough one. What do you

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Speaker 1: what do you know? What do you know about the

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Speaker 1: how how gynecology started as a as a as a

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Speaker 1: discipline in like western medical cannon. Okay, Um, this is

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Speaker 1: this is gonna be hard on me. Uh, this is

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Speaker 1: I'm not like above criticizing medical history. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: have a very bad history everything thought. Yeah, but you

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Speaker 1: you kind of higher hopes for medicine. Uh, and when

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Speaker 1: you learn about some of the awful stuff in medicine,

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Speaker 1: um it it's a little bit uh disappointing, maybe at

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Speaker 1: least because you expect more. But there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: bad people in the world of medicine did a lot

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Speaker 1: of bad things. You've covered a lot of them, even

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Speaker 1: recent ones. And uh, I'm sure it would be guine,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the other medical advances in medical

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Speaker 1: fields has probably had some pretty awful characters in it.

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Speaker 1: I think I have a sense of who we're talking

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Speaker 1: about today. Uh if that's if that's what we're talking about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: today we are talking about Jay Mary and Sims. Um.

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Speaker 1: And as a rule, when you google this guy, doctor

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Speaker 1: j Mary and Sims. Although again, at the time he

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Speaker 1: became a doctor, like I think there's like hairdressers who

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Speaker 1: spend more time in school. Like, it wasn't it wasn't

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Speaker 1: that hard at the time. You know, nobody was doing

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Speaker 1: eight years in medical school. There's a lot of cocaine

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Speaker 1: people and just a lot of knights in the hospitals.

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Speaker 1: That was about it. I'm sure low're bar um. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So when you google Jay Mary and Sims, the thing

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Speaker 1: you'll generally seem described at is the father of guy

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Speaker 1: in ecology. Um, which is you would Oh, I thought

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Speaker 1: you were gonna say, uh, Colin Firth, Stoppelganger. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he does look a lot like Colin Firth. Listen, that's

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Speaker 1: Mr Darby you're talking about. I have some respect. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean Jay Marry and Sims could have played Mr Darby. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is a tough one. It because this guy, unlike

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Speaker 1: a lot of the doctor usually when we have a

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Speaker 1: doctor on here, you're about to hear about them doing

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Speaker 1: some very non doctor lee shit. Um. This guy was

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Speaker 1: pretty competent at medicine. He I mean, he made his mistakes,

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Speaker 1: but he was like kind of on the cutting edge,

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Speaker 1: and he legitimately made some fair important breakthroughs in medical science. Um.

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Speaker 1: He is not a medical grifter. Uh. And he was

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Speaker 1: not full of shit. Um. What he was was a

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Speaker 1: guy who used enslaved people as test dummies on which

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Speaker 1: he could like cut at his will. Um. And that's

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about today. I'm already sad. Yeah. UM.

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Speaker 1: I do want to start though by because, like, because

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Speaker 1: this guy gets called the father of gynecology a lot,

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Speaker 1: I do feel like we should we should go back

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Speaker 1: in time a little bit and talk about kind of

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Speaker 1: what came before him, because, um, like, obviously this guy

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Speaker 1: there's a degree of historical credit this guy should get.

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Speaker 1: He invented some of the most basic tools that are

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Speaker 1: still used today in the trade. Um, it's probably fair

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Speaker 1: to say he was one of the first people to

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Speaker 1: practice gynecology and a recognized modern way. Um. But in

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Speaker 1: a larger sense saying that, like any person in the

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, let alone, a dude could be like the

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Speaker 1: father of gynecology is like lunacy, because obviously people have

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Speaker 1: heard about health and and those organs and that part

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Speaker 1: of the body for forever, and they have been attempting

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Speaker 1: to deal with it one way or the other, um,

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Speaker 1: for forever. And I do want to start talking about that,

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Speaker 1: just because I don't like limiting our discussion of medicine

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Speaker 1: to like the eighteen hundreds when like ship was getting patented,

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Speaker 1: because actually useful things were discovered before that period in time. UM,

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Speaker 1: So obviously, UM, the it's you know, hard to say

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Speaker 1: what the first medical practitioner would have been. It is

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Speaker 1: certainly someone whose name has been lost to time, if

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Speaker 1: indeed they had a name, right, Like, if you're really

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Speaker 1: counting the very first people who figured out that there

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Speaker 1: were different kind of plants or clays and soils, all

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Speaker 1: of these were used in different kind of medical capacities

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Speaker 1: by people in the past. Um, they may have even

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Speaker 1: been people before like names were a thing that people had. UM.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons for this is that anthropologists suspect

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Speaker 1: that a lot of our early understanding of like what

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Speaker 1: herbs and plants and other things were medicinal came from

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Speaker 1: people observing animals. There are animals that will seek out

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Speaker 1: medicinal herbs in nature and use them to alleviate discomfort

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Speaker 1: and aid in healing. This is how probably people learned

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Speaker 1: about different things, including the plants that we get like

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Speaker 1: ad villain stuff basically from um uh plants that like

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Speaker 1: we get. I mean this is honestly where like d

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Speaker 1: m T and ship comes from m al. Wise there's

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Speaker 1: um like jaguars in the jungle, little seek out banister

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Speaker 1: ops as cappy and whatnot. So like all of these,

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Speaker 1: all these different like medicines. People probably started to find

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Speaker 1: things that were useful in treating ailments by watching animals

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Speaker 1: in the wild take them and kind of like documenting it. UM.

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Speaker 1: It's also worth noting that this is probably not exclusive

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Speaker 1: to humans. Anthropologists suspect that Neanderthal's had medical knowledge and

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Speaker 1: presumably acquired it in the same way. UM. This also

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Speaker 1: probably included basic knowledge about how to deal with wounds,

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Speaker 1: because they would people. It's it's not hard to figure

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Speaker 1: out that like putting pressure on a bleed can like

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Speaker 1: help with the bleed. Right, we shouldn't assume that people

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Speaker 1: thirty thousand years ago were too dumb to be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: if you hold onto a bleeds sometimes they don't die. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, all that kind of stuff is probably early,

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Speaker 1: early on, like medicine. The first documented medical tools in

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Speaker 1: history are believed to be flint tipped drills and bowstrings

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Speaker 1: used by Neolithic dentists in Balukastan around seven thousand BC. Um,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty amazing. Blukastan. Are you making that up?

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Speaker 1: Is this a place? No? No No, no, no no, but

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Speaker 1: it's a let me let me double check because map

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Speaker 1: stuff is always but I believe it's like, um, we're on.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be really pissed. I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: far I mean Lucastan. Oh my god. Yeah, there is

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Speaker 1: a Bulakistan. Yes, it's one of it's part of Pakistan Ta,

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Speaker 1: so it's yeah, it's not far far enough, far far. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like yeah that kind of Indo Arean area. Um.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that's the first in the first medical tool.

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Speaker 1: And again these are just the first ones that we've

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Speaker 1: probably the oldest tools that we have on record, right,

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Speaker 1: which isn't to say that these were the first, but

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Speaker 1: that's interesting to me always that like dental tools, although

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Speaker 1: it makes sense like the consequences of fucking up with

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Speaker 1: dental surgery or less than like heart surgery. So it

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Speaker 1: makes sense that like people might have figured that out earlier, right, yeah, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: it's an easier access yeah yeah, and obviously, like tooth

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Speaker 1: problems would have been all very common. Um. However, some

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Speaker 1: researchers have recently argued convincingly that the very first recorded

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Speaker 1: medical device and history came much earlier and was not

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Speaker 1: a drill or any kind of surgical tool, but was

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Speaker 1: actually the statuette commonly known as the Venus of Willendorff,

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Speaker 1: found in Austria in nineteen o eight. If you've seen

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Speaker 1: this artifact, and I think anyone who's gotten through grade

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Speaker 1: school has seen it in a textbook, it is one

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Speaker 1: of the most common pieces of ancient art that you'll see. Um.

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Speaker 1: It dates back to about eight thousand years ago, give

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Speaker 1: or take, and it depicts a rotund woman with substantial

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Speaker 1: breasts and white hips. Uh. The guys who found this

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Speaker 1: in Austria were like white Victorian due um, and they

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Speaker 1: assumed immediately that this was pornography of some sort and

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Speaker 1: that the venus descriptor was like the fact that they

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Speaker 1: called it a venus was like them making fun of primitive, undeveloped,

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Speaker 1: savage people, right, and like, oh, this is what they

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Speaker 1: thought was hot, these weirdos in the past, Uh said,

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Speaker 1: those weirdos in the past. So more recently, several groups

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Speaker 1: of scholars have argued that the venus was in fact

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Speaker 1: an obstetric aid used by women to track the progress

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Speaker 1: of their pregnancies, the changes in their own bodies and

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Speaker 1: the bodies of others over time during your pregnancy, and

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Speaker 1: perhaps even as part of an attempt to figure out

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Speaker 1: what body shapes were most likely to survive childbirth. Basically

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Speaker 1: an attempt to document here's who what are members of

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Speaker 1: are like tryb or clan or whatever look like in

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Speaker 1: different stages of the pregnancies that we can know, Well,

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Speaker 1: the women who look more like this have an easier

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Speaker 1: time surviving the birthing process. Right, this is again wild. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did not I did not know about that. I

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Speaker 1: know about the statutes in like your rights in every

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Speaker 1: textbook it's like you know, and like Michael Crichton books,

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Speaker 1: it's in like a lot of like pop culture or

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Speaker 1: when they this time travel thing, But like, I had

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Speaker 1: no idea there's natural use for it. Yeah, one of

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Speaker 1: the ways in which there's been a couple of papers

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Speaker 1: on this at this point. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: the first that I actually talked to one of the

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Speaker 1: guys who did the first paper, one of the things

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Speaker 1: they pointed out is that if you if you take

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Speaker 1: pictures of the venus from the perspective of its head,

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Speaker 1: like looking down at its breasts, looking to the side

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Speaker 1: at its hips. Um. They compared that to pictures pregnant

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Speaker 1: women took of themselves with the camera like facing where

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Speaker 1: their eyes were, of the same parts of their body,

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Speaker 1: and it looks like the depiction of a pregnant person

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Speaker 1: that a pregnant person would make of their own body

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Speaker 1: if they did not have access to like a mirror

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Speaker 1: or something, if they were just looking down at themselves

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Speaker 1: and trying to sculpture representation. UM. And further research was

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Speaker 1: published and I'm gonna quote now from a write up

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Speaker 1: and art critique about it. Quote published recently in Obesity,

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Speaker 1: a scientific journal. Richard J. Johnson, Miguel al Lanaspa, and

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Speaker 1: John W. Fox offered that variation in size amongst amongst

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Speaker 1: venus sculptures was directly related to climate and proximity to

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Speaker 1: glaciers because survival required sufficient nutrition for childbearing women. They write,

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Speaker 1: we hypothesize that the overnourished woman became an ideal symbol

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Speaker 1: of survival and beauty during episodes of starvation and climate

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Speaker 1: change in Paleolithic Europe. The study further points out that

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Speaker 1: the venus is often made out of mammoth. Mammoth ivory, stone,

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Speaker 1: and horn were worn down in smooth likely result of

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Speaker 1: being being handled, indicating that they were probably passed down

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Speaker 1: through generations. The study proposes that the venuses could have

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Speaker 1: been used as tools to teach women coming into their

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Speaker 1: child bearing bearing years then increasing their own body fat

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Speaker 1: would allow them to survive through difficult climates. It yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's yeah. It's obviously, um, it's unlikely

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Speaker 1: that the venuses we have, any of them particularly, are

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Speaker 1: the very first ones done. But but these go back

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Speaker 1: very far, twenty three thousand years or so before the

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Speaker 1: first dineral drills. Part of what that suggests is that

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Speaker 1: maybe some of if not the very earliest people practicing

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Speaker 1: medicine in anything that could be considered a kind of

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Speaker 1: like um uh organized way would have been women either

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Speaker 1: trying to survive pregnancy or trying to help other women

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Speaker 1: survive pregnancy, right, which is also very logical if you

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Speaker 1: think about, like, you know, how like the priorities people

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Speaker 1: would have had back then. Um. I stayed all this

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Speaker 1: because number one, we're about to talk about a very

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Speaker 1: different period in the history of women's health when the

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Speaker 1: only people who are allowed to study it were men

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Speaker 1: um And I don't want to pretend because when you

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Speaker 1: call somebody like Jay James Mary and Simms like the

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Speaker 1: father of gynecology, it does kind of like insinuate that

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Speaker 1: this is the start of like women's health as like

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Speaker 1: a medical discipline, and it absolutely is not right. We

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Speaker 1: people have been working and in a lot, in a

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Speaker 1: lot of cases we could talk about, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: midwives in Europe um and like a lot of how

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Speaker 1: a lot of like honestly a lot of the best

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Speaker 1: knowledge about childbirth and whatnot would have come from them

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Speaker 1: rather than doctors from most of the history of medicine

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Speaker 1: for reasons we're about to talk about. So just want

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Speaker 1: to denote as we get into this really misogynistic and

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Speaker 1: racist story, um, that the history of gynecology does not

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Speaker 1: in fact begin with James Maryan Simms and kinnecology of stetrics.

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Speaker 1: It's all kind of like woven together at this point

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Speaker 1: because there's not a lot of specialization yet. Um when

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Speaker 1: we talk about where we're talking about, which is the

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Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds. So I'm gonna I'm gonna move into

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Speaker 1: the story now. James Marion Sims was born in Lancaster County,

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Speaker 1: South Carolina, in eighteen thirteen. Most of the knowledge we

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Speaker 1: have of his early life comes from his autobiography, The

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Speaker 1: Story of My Life, which he wrote forty years after

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Speaker 1: the experiments that are going to take up the bulk

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Speaker 1: of our discussion today, to give you an idea of

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Speaker 1: the sort of guy he was. The book opens with

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Speaker 1: forty pages. He had someone else right about what a

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Speaker 1: hero he was. I'm gonna the way to do it.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna read you

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Speaker 1: a sample passage for this fucking book. His mouth was

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Speaker 1: admirably formed, the lips being of medium fullness to the

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Speaker 1: lower lips somewhat fuller, indicating decision of character. His smile

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Speaker 1: was one of kindly sweetness. His head was rather below

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Speaker 1: than above the average size, and it's unusual height in

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Speaker 1: proportion to its circumference pointed his Gaelic origin, for through

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Speaker 1: his mother, the blood of the mcgregors of Mcalpan coursed

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Speaker 1: full proof in the veins of their descendant. His tout

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Speaker 1: ensemble suggested in all respects, Sir John Bell's ideal of

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Speaker 1: the qualities necessary in a truly great surgeon, the brain

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Speaker 1: of the apollo, the heart of a lion, the eye

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Speaker 1: of an eagle, and the hand of a woman. Just

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Speaker 1: so you know, this is classic academics. Classic academics is

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Speaker 1: how it is. This is how it is to teach

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Speaker 1: you go a male. This is everyone's like this classic

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Speaker 1: beautiful Gaelic features. Yeah, beautiful feet in the hands of

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Speaker 1: a woman. That's actually kind of a compliment that at least,

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Speaker 1: at least that part of it's like, you know, like

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Speaker 1: hands in the heart of a lion. He's perfect, He's

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Speaker 1: a perfect man. Yeah, So, I mean, just as an

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Speaker 1: idea of where this guy's ego ends up, that's like

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Speaker 1: how that's that's what he has someone else right opening

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Speaker 1: his fucking idol biography. Can I just asked you a question?

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Speaker 1: Am I? Absolutely? At some point when he is forced

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Speaker 1: to confront some of the bad stuff that he does,

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Speaker 1: am I going to absolutely hate him for his responses,

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Speaker 1: and when he looks back upon it in this book,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah, it's it's pretty weasily. It's one of mature

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Speaker 1: is really going to hate it. So, following tens of

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Speaker 1: thousands of words of effusive praise, the book opens with

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Speaker 1: Sims explaining how a bunch of people just demanded he

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Speaker 1: writes this autobiography. He's like, doctor's autobiographies aren't normally interesting,

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Speaker 1: but the demand has been so intense that I must.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you I know how this happened. Because

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Speaker 1: when you're a doctor and you're being followed around by

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Speaker 1: like a big group of medical students, you have them

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Speaker 1: at your you have to that their grades, their lives,

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Speaker 1: the future careers are in your hands. And I've never

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Speaker 1: gotten more fake laughs than when I like have medical

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Speaker 1: students with me. I'm like very sensitive to it, like

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Speaker 1: a dream. It's you think, but at some point kind

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Speaker 1: of drives you crazy because you're, wait, was that, don't

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Speaker 1: don't give me a courtesy laugh? I want you don't

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Speaker 1: have to do that. And that's what's happening to this guy,

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Speaker 1: because all these students being, oh my god, you're so amazing.

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Speaker 1: Please tell us how you have to write a book, sir, sir,

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Speaker 1: you have to write a book. You have predicted this,

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Speaker 1: because he starts to hospitals. So, yes, that's absolutely the

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Speaker 1: case here. I know I know this guy, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: know him. So um. He notes that his uh yeah.

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Speaker 1: He gives through some interminable family history before he starts

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Speaker 1: talking about his own birth. He notes that his parents

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Speaker 1: were descended from English colonists in Virginia, that his family

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Speaker 1: had come to North America in seventeen forty, and that

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Speaker 1: his grandfather served in the Revolutionary War. Quote, when I

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Speaker 1: was ten or twelve or eleven years old, he showed

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Speaker 1: me a document with Washington's name signed to it. But

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Speaker 1: I did not have enough sense to appreciate it or

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Speaker 1: to care to know what it was. Um, who knows

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Speaker 1: if that's true. Might have been might have just been

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Speaker 1: something he said, because it was kind of invoked in

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Speaker 1: this period of time if you were a certain kind

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Speaker 1: of white dude to be like, oh, yeah, my I

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Speaker 1: had a grandpa or a dad who knew George Washington

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Speaker 1: for share. Um. Now, his grandfather lived to age ninety five,

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Speaker 1: which is insane in that that's pretty good now, Like

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Speaker 1: in the eight hundreds, like that is the toughest son

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Speaker 1: of a bitch in several counties, UM. And what he

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Speaker 1: talks a lot about how the men and his family

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Speaker 1: live long lives. And then he spends several pages whining

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Speaker 1: that his dad died at age seventy eight, which is

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Speaker 1: again pretty good for the era. Now again is still

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Speaker 1: above average UM. And he spends a long time listing

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Speaker 1: all of the things his dad could have done to

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Speaker 1: have lived longer, because he was supposed to live to

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Speaker 1: be over a hundred UM. And then, after he spends

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Speaker 1: all this time complaining about his father dying early at

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Speaker 1: seventy eight, he notes, off handedly, my mother died at

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Speaker 1: the age of forty of common bilious remittent fever, the

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Speaker 1: disease that is cured now with the greatest facility, but

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Speaker 1: at the time was attended with great mortality because they

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Speaker 1: were ignorant of the method of care. That's it. That's

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Speaker 1: all for mom. That's all for mom. Oh, this was

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Speaker 1: an amazing time to be alive. Share was dad only

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Speaker 1: lived a seventy eight? What a tragedy if he'd you know,

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Speaker 1: avoided this and taken this and done this that I

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Speaker 1: told him, Oh, yeah, mom dropped at forty, but whatever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she didn't have his lips. Did you see in my

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Speaker 1: father's lips. They were my father's beautiful full lips. They

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00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 1: were beautiful. Uh, it's it's great. So Mary and Simms

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Speaker 1: was educated from a young age, as his father had

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Speaker 1: not really gotten an education. It was kind of insecure

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Speaker 1: about it. Right. So he wants his kid, which is normal, right,

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Speaker 1: wants his kid to have a better life than he did.

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Speaker 1: The family owned a store in so most mornings, five

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Speaker 1: year old Marian would hike a mile to the local school,

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Speaker 1: which was run by a Scotsman. He is the kind

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Speaker 1: of autobiographer who always lets you know the race of

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Speaker 1: everybody who comes up in the book. It is very

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Speaker 1: important you know this guy was a Scotsman and you

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Speaker 1: know the Irishman are Irish, and the Germans or Germans. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's he's real, real insistent on that. Um. Now, since

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Speaker 1: he was six at the time, sim says that he

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Speaker 1: remember there is little of this period, which is fair.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember a whole lot about being six, but

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Speaker 1: he does note that quote the teacher flogged the boys

365
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Speaker 1: occasionally very severely and stood some of them up in

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Speaker 1: the corner with a fool's cap on um, which is

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Speaker 1: probably not weird for the time, but always funny to

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Speaker 1: read about kids getting hit in old timey schools. So,

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Speaker 1: school in this part of the United States, and this

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Speaker 1: time was often summer term only. That was actually kind

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Speaker 1: of the norm back in the day. You would go

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Speaker 1: to school during the summer because like there's no planting

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Speaker 1: or anything, or in the summer, right, you plant and

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Speaker 1: like the spring and you harvest and kind of like

375
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Speaker 1: the fall summer, there's not really much for the kids

376
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Speaker 1: to do, so that's like the best time in winter.

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00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 1: It's usually like YouTube, is he not dying of freezing

378
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Speaker 1: to death to go do much in the winter, So

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Speaker 1: kids would go to school in the summer. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: the elder Simms didn't like the idea of his son

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Speaker 1: only receiving a couple of months of schooling per year,

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Speaker 1: so he spent a significant amount of money to send

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Speaker 1: his boy, now age six, to a boarding school in

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Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen. Adults, Simms lets us know that this teacher

385
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Speaker 1: was an irishman who was badly pockmarked from small po

386
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Speaker 1: This again critical detail from his childhood for you. Um.

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Speaker 1: He was quote a rigid, disciplinarian, altogether, very tyrannical. And

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Speaker 1: I was very unhappy at his house because I think

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Speaker 1: he's living with the teacher. That's the kind of weird

390
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 1: boarding school. It's not like a big boarding school. I

391
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,920
Speaker 1: think it's like this guy runs a school in a town,

392
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 1: and people who live in rural communities will like send

393
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,160
Speaker 1: their kids to live with them for a few months

394
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,960
Speaker 1: to do school. I love so much weird ship from

395
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 1: your show man. Yeah, it's we I think this is

396
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 1: pretty common for the period cases. It's so great though.

397
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,879
Speaker 1: I learned so many little facts I get to drop

398
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,880
Speaker 1: on on other people. Yet, imagine how much that would suck.

399
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 1: It's like, you gotta go live with your math teacher now,

400
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 1: so that's the only way for you to learn things.

401
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 1: Oh what a bad youth set would be. Um, I

402
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,000
Speaker 1: love that spods the weirdest ship for ship, but it's

403
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 1: great love. I would not choose for that to be

404
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,399
Speaker 1: how my childhood. But you know what I would choose

405
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 1: for someone's childhood. I bet you. I bet you you

406
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 1: would choose them the delightful UH products and services that

407
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: are funding this program. I believe that children have the

408
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 1: right to engage in projects and services, and more than anything,

409
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 1: I believe that children have the right to be put

410
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 1: on child hunting island where they can become part of

411
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,439
Speaker 1: the economy. That's what always gets bleeped out. That is,

412
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 1: that's what always gets bleeped out. Now you know it,

413
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: but no one else gets access to. We're back, uh kava.

414
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,919
Speaker 1: You know we would probably talk about something. Obviously, the

415
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,680
Speaker 1: f d A just banned jewels to protect the kids. Um.

416
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,439
Speaker 1: I think you know, youth smoking youth vaping have actually

417
00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 1: both been dropping for a while. My opinion is that

418
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 1: we ought to do the thing where you just force

419
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 1: kids to smoke when they're in grade school, right, because

420
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: what's the one way to make not consuming tobacco cool

421
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: something kids do with like they'll hang out and they

422
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 1: won't smoke. Force him to smoke at school. Yeah, this

423
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 1: was This was proven a long time ago in a

424
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 1: documentary about Donald duck Um where he forced Hughie, Dewey

425
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: and Louie to smoke a carton of cigarettes and they

426
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 1: got so sick that they never wanted to smoke again. Um.

427
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: I think that makes a lot of sense that And

428
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 1: if you at home have an argument, I want you

429
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 1: to think to yourself, has Donald Duck ever been wrong?

430
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: And the answer is no, no, And we shouldn't wear pants,

431
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 1: and we shouldn't wear pants. We shouldn't wear pants. Shirt

432
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 1: cock it give your kids cigarettes, make them smoke at school. Anyway,

433
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 1: back to the podcast, So, so he goes to this

434
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,159
Speaker 1: boarding school with this uh irishman who is, yeah, a

435
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: tyrannical guy. He's going to live at his house. He

436
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 1: clearly finds found the experience somewhat traumatizing, because he writes,

437
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: pointed Lee in his autobiography quote, my convictions now are

438
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 1: that the best place for a child under ten years

439
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 1: of ages with his mother? And it's it does say

440
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: a lot both about the experience he had that like

441
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: as a as a guy who does not talk about

442
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: his feelings, he wants to note this decades later, like

443
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: I think that points to this being pretty traumatizing to him,

444
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: and also it points to kind of what was going

445
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: on at the time that he also felt the need

446
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 1: to tell other readers in the late eighteen hundreds, like

447
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 1: don't separate small children from their parents. That was probably

448
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: crazy at the time. Yeah, what this guy is supergressive

449
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: soft now from this very early age. Simms was extremely

450
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: competitive against his peers. The school had a daily challenge

451
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 1: where if you got like kudos or something, you know,

452
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: if you basically you got like a praise from the teacher,

453
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 1: if you were the first kid who got to class,

454
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: you got to sit in a special seat. Um and

455
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 1: Sims wound up in a rivalry. There was this ten

456
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: year old who was always the first kid in class, Um,

457
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 1: whose name he remembered like eighty years later. Uh, and

458
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 1: he gets into like a competition with this kid over

459
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 1: who can get to school fastest. Quote. And this kid's

460
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: name is James Graham, So this is him writing. However,

461
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: the boy that got ahead of James Graham had to

462
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: rise very early in the morning. I remember getting up

463
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 1: one morning, long before daybreak. The dread of my young

464
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: life was Mad Dogs and Runaway inwards. I started off

465
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: for the schoolhouse on a trot an hour before day,

466
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: looking anxiously from side to side and before and behind,

467
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: fearing all the time for those two great bugbears of

468
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 1: my young life vise mad Dogs and runaway in words

469
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: with which the minds of the young were so often

470
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 1: demoralized by Negro stories. So, uh really hate this guy

471
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: and he is he is. He is talking here about

472
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: runaway slaves, right, which is a book like kids get

473
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: warned like, hey, if you wander off the path, you

474
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 1: go into the woods, like there are runaway slaves, they'll

475
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: murder you, right, Like it's a it's a thing white

476
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: people tell their kids, you know. Um, that's what he's

477
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,479
Speaker 1: referring to, right, is these stories he would have been

478
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: told of a kid of like runaway slaves hiding in

479
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: the woods that he has to watch out for. Obviously,

480
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: nothing ever happens, um, But the fact that he refers

481
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 1: to them that way, and he does not use that

482
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: polite term um, should be a hint as to this

483
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: fellow's attitudes on racism. Um. Yeah, although I again as racist,

484
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: says he says, I do want to note like he

485
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: is totally normal for his time, because it is the

486
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: United States in the early eighteen hundreds. So you know, um,

487
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: he is he is growing up deep within like slavery, um,

488
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: and there is nothing about it that he finds unsettling

489
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: other than the thought that he might get hurt by

490
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: a freed slave, right or an escaped slave. Right. Um.

491
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: So in second grade, his teacher had one remarkable peculiarity,

492
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: which was that quote, it made no odds whether a

493
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: boy was good or bad. He invariably got a flogging

494
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: on the first day. So one of his teachers in

495
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: second grade is like, first time a new kid comes in,

496
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: I'm on a weapon. It's like gang initiation. It's the

497
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: worst school. I bring this up because he goes on

498
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: to tell the story of a seventh grade who got

499
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: seventh or a seven year old who got flogged because

500
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 1: he had to spend a single day in their class.

501
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: And the kid wasn't a student, his brothers were, and

502
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: his mom had to go into town, so she dropped

503
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: him off at the school because she didn't want to

504
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: leave him at home. Quote with the negroes again, this

505
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 1: is like, these are the people who are raising him.

506
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: These are the adults in his culture. Right, We're taking

507
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: you somewhere safe, son, to the floor. We don't want

508
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: you to hang out around the slaves. Let's take you

509
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: to go get beaten with a whip bite. Teacher. Your seven,

510
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: you can handle it. So I think you're getting an

511
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: idea of how this kid's early life went right and

512
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: and kind of the culture that raises him and its values.

513
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: Um when Marian was like twelve. His dad is elected

514
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: shiriff of Lancaster Village, which most sources will note. Who

515
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: was north of Hanging Rock Creek. You can probably guess

516
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: who tended to get hung there and why. Um. Once

517
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: his dad was established in a prominent position, he was

518
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: able to send his son to Franklin Academy, where he

519
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: studied for two years before earning admission to South Carolina College. Um.

520
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 1: So he starts college at fourteen, which is not abnormal

521
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: at the time. Right Again, in this same period of time,

522
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: if you're in Germany, if you're most of like the

523
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: western world, at age fourteen, you're legally an adult in

524
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: a lot of the West, right like you're you're starting

525
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: to do a man's work in that period of time.

526
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: So it's not wild that he's going to college at

527
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: age fourteen. Um. He does well in college, he's quickly

528
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: admitted to the Euphratean Society, which is a literary fraternity

529
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: for nerds. Um. The Euphratean Society existed as a result

530
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: of a split with an older fraternity, and for whatever

531
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: it's worth, the one Marion joined was the less less

532
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: famous of the two. Because their sister fraternity. The Clariosophic

533
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: Society counted a bunch of famous people as members, including

534
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 1: John C. Calhoun UM. So, yeah, by this point he

535
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: had decided to become a doctor, and while he was

536
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: at South Carolina College, he basically interns with a local doctor.

537
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: Right in this period of time, medicine it's still this

538
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: kind of hybrid of the way it had existed pretty

539
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: much forever, which is, you find a doctor and you

540
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: like become their helper and that's how you learn a

541
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: lot of the tools of the trade. But there's also

542
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: a school. There's also medical schools, and you can get like,

543
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: you know, a degree and stuff. But kind of both

544
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: things are common and which is not like today, you know,

545
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: you have like your your what do you call it,

546
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: residency and stuff. But in this period of time, he

547
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: kind of starts his residency at the same time as

548
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: he's starting to go to medical school, and medical school

549
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: is not nearly as formal, so his medical schooling starts

550
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: his formal medical cooling starts with a three month course

551
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: at a medical college at Charleston UM, but he finds

552
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: that too hard, so he quits. Uh, he goes to

553
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: Philly and he gets joins the worse medical school. Uh,

554
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: that's what I wanted. Three month course, which just too intense. Well,

555
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: you know the old joke. You know what they call

556
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: the doctor who quits his medical school after three months

557
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: and goes to a worse medical school and graduates at

558
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: the bottom of that medical school. You know what, they

559
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: call him a doctor. That's right, classic joke. Good stuff.

560
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: I mean, like three months now, you couldn't. You can't

561
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: become a paramedic in three months, right, isn't that like

562
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: a year or so? Three months would be like one

563
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: rotation in like yeah, yeah, it's it's very little in

564
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: today's standards. Um. But he does eventually get into a

565
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: worse medical school. He graduates in eighteen thirty five and is,

566
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: in his words quote, a lackluster student who showed little ambition.

567
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: He noted in his memoirs, I felt no particular interest

568
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: in my profession at the beginning of it, apart from

569
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: making a living. I was really ready, at any time

570
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: and in any moment, to take up anything that offered

571
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: or held out any inducement of fortune, because I knew

572
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: that I could never make a fortune out of the

573
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: practice of medicine. I didn't really feel passionate about my

574
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: work until I realized I could really make people suffer. Yeah,

575
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: until I learned how to get fucking rich, I didn't

576
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: care about being a doctor. So he is a graduated

577
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: doctor at age twenty two, which, man, I don't know

578
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: that I think twenty two year old should be driving cars.

579
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's a for a time, you know, it

580
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: is a different, very far off, and there's a lot

581
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: less medicine to learn, right, Uh, there's much less medicine

582
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: to learn. So if you even go back now, like

583
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: ten years, like ten fifteen years, Like the books we

584
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: took for our step one training test, they were like

585
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: maybe a quarter inch thick. Now over the years they're

586
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: like two to three inches thick of all the stuff

587
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: you have to learn just in that one for that

588
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: one test. So in the last it's been a little

589
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: bit more exponential in terms of what we have to

590
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: learn in terms of the sciences. But uh, yeah, I

591
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: imagine back then it was like maybe a pamphlet in

592
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: life pay attention. If you condensed all of the good

593
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: medical information you could have fitted into a zine. Um

594
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: mostly it would have been washhands underlying bu. They were

595
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: pretty far from that, Yeah, that is a that is

596
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: a contentious debate at the time. People are getting stabbed

597
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: with four steps over it. That's exactly right. Yeah. Um,

598
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: so you know he's a doctor. Twenty two, he goes

599
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: back to his hometown. Um. Now he has no actual

600
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: clinical experience. He had never worked in a hospital. He basically,

601
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: like kind of by his own admission, didn't know how

602
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: to do anything. His first two patients are newborn babies,

603
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: and both of them die instantly. Um. This makes him

604
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: sad for reasons that I think are understandable, and to

605
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: be fair, with the best medical knowledge at the time,

606
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: there's pretty good chance he wouldn't have saved those babies

607
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: because it is eight thirty five. Yeah. Um, So he

608
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: gets very sad and he flees to Alabama. Um. He

609
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: lives there in a disreputable boomtown, presumably drinking too much

610
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: due to the fact that he described it his quote

611
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: nothing but a pile of gin houses, stables, blacksmith shops,

612
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: grog shops, taverns, and stores thrown together in one promiscuous huddle.

613
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: You will know that three of the six business types

614
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: he describes are just different types of bars. We had

615
00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: the house house, so in eighteen thirty six home from Alabama,

616
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: he marries a woman named Teresa, and in eighteen thirty

617
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: seven he and his new bride moved to Macon County

618
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: to get simms first real job, which is working as

619
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: a plantation physician. So, as you probably have guessed, his

620
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: primary patients there are not plantation owners. They probably hired

621
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: better doctors because he's not very good at this point. Um,

622
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: his patients are enslaved people, right, Um, Now, in some

623
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: ways this is not an inherently evil job, because like,

624
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: slavery is wrong, but like it's not wrong to provide

625
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,959
Speaker 1: medical care to enslaved people obviously. Uh. And he did

626
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: a lot of operations on club feed, cleft palates, crossed eyes, like,

627
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: and that's like, even if you're working for a plantation owner,

628
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: if you are carrying out medical procedures on people who

629
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: are enslaved, it's like good to do that. Um. So

630
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: this is not like a job that is nest necessarily

631
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: the worst thing you could be doing at this time

632
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: if you're interfacing with the slave economy. However, the job

633
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: of plantation doctor does not just mean being paid to

634
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: take care of enslaved people. Um. It is fully integrated

635
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: into the machinery of slaveholding and the South's budding human

636
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: trafficking business. See The foreign importation of slaves had been

637
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: banned in eighteen o eight, which meant the growing demand

638
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: for enslaved black people in the United States was served

639
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: primariably by forcing enslaved people to make babies and then

640
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: selling those babies. Right, you cannot import more enslave people

641
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: after eighteen o eight. The way that the slave economy

642
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: keeps going is they force enslave people to have children,

643
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: and then they steal those children and sell them. Right,

644
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: that is how it works. Doctors are a critical part

645
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: of this because again, not the easiest thing to keep

646
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: mothers and babies alive in this period of time. Um now,

647
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: I want to quote now from a write up by

648
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: Monica Cronin quote. Enslave women were not only expected to reproduce,

649
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: but it seems reproduce often. As Dorothy Roberts wrote, slave

650
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: women's childbearing replenty to the slave labor force. Black women

651
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: bore children who belonged to the slave owner from the

652
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: moment of their conception. Thomas Jefferson, third President of the

653
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: United States of America, acknowledged that a woman who brings

654
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: a child every two years is more profitable than the

655
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: best man of the farm. So so they're part of

656
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: this machine to keep slavery going, this economy of it.

657
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: And they are arguably a critical part of the most

658
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: profitable part of this machine, because the slave owners themselves

659
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 1: will argue that keeping enslaved women breeding is more profitable

660
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: than any individual labor laborer. Right. Um, so Simms's work

661
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: was very much critical in maintaining the profitability of his

662
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: employer's slave empires, and he was not an insignificant part

663
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: of this machinery in the state of Georgia. This right

664
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: up from history that goes into more detail. According to

665
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: Vanessa Gamble, University Professor of Medical Humanities at George Washington University,

666
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: Sims's practice was deeply rooted in the trade for enslaved people.

667
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: Sim's built an eight person hospital in the heart of

668
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: the trading district in Montgomery. While most healthcare took place

669
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: on the plantation, some stubborn cases were brought to physicians

670
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: like Sims, who patched up in slave workers so they

671
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: could produce and reproduce for their masters. Again, otherwise they

672
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: were useless to their owners. This brings up the concept

673
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: of soundness, says Gamble, being sound meant they produce for

674
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: men and women and reproduce for for women. Right, So

675
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: this is like, yeah, this is the thing. Now, we

676
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: are somewhat reliant upon Sims here for information on the

677
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: size and scope of his practice. But his claim is

678
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: that his practice was not merely one among many, but

679
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: the largest surgical practice, but the largest surgical practice in Alabama,

680
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: and the largest practice any doctor in Montgomery had ever

681
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 1: had up to that point. Again, he is a narcissist.

682
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: This may be untrue. That's I'm not saying that to

683
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: like mitigate his crimes. It's just like he's not an

684
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: entirely reliable narrator here. And and the fact that he's

685
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 1: just like I had the most racist medical progression. I

686
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: was the biggest racist and the greatest racist dr you've

687
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: ever seen. Yeah. But and also it is entirely possible

688
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: he was the biggest you know, that's not an impossible

689
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: thing here. He's certainly a significant part of this. And

690
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: it's also, as you said, worth noting that he's like

691
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: I was the most important of the racism doctors. Yeah. Um,

692
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: And again he he has so many patients because he

693
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: provided an economic like a cost effective way for slave

694
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 1: owners to keep their human assets productive. In in that sense,

695
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: um as a doctor, Sims had to treat female patients

696
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: regularly and he hated this. Uh No doctors at the

697
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: time liked working on women. Um, this is going to

698
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: be gnarly, so buckle up. One of Sims's major critics,

699
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: Direnda Januga, explained it this way in her article for

700
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: the Journal of Medical Ethics. Quote. To complicate the situation

701
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: even more, the medical specialty of gynecology did not exist.

702
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: The practice of examining the female organs was considered repugnant

703
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: by doctors, who were almost all males. In fact, in

704
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: American medical schools, obstetrics and child delivery were taught by

705
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: the use of dummies, and often it was not until

706
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: the doctor was in practice that he actually delivered a baby.

707
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: According to Words and Words nine, young doctors rarely had

708
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: any clinical training and what the theory of birth mint

709
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: In practice, Many arrived at a birth with only lectures

710
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: and book learning to guide them. If they and the

711
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: laboring patients were fortunate, they had an older, experienced doctor

712
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: or attending woman to explain what was natural in what

713
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,760
Speaker 1: was not. Many young men were less lucky and were embarrassed, confused,

714
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: and frightened by the appearances of labor and birth. So

715
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: most doctors know almost nothing about labor about again, this

716
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: is part of why, like, you're in better hands a

717
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: lot of times with a midwife here than you're like

718
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: going to a doctor for this. Um. And if I

719
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: could be fair for a second, there was very few

720
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: things in medicine that scared me when I was doing

721
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: my medical school training, but childbirth was one of them.

722
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: Like it was, I found it terrifying. The risks were

723
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: the scared holding babies exactly. I mean, like, I just

724
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: you don't want to suck it up so mad it was.

725
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: It can be so stressful. Um, I mean that's not

726
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: I don't think that's quite the issue that all these

727
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: people are facing at the time. But I'm just gonna

728
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: say it's it is a really tough field. I have

729
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: a lot of respect for obi gaians. I mean, so

730
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: one field, of course, it's like the one field of

731
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: medicine where you're not just avoiding death, you're actually bringing

732
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: life into the world. So it's kind of like cool

733
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: in that that way, but it's also very high risk,

734
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 1: high reward sort of thing, and there's like the loads

735
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: can be so low it's like soul crushing if it happens,

736
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: you know, and one has to assume, You have to assume.

737
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: There are the odd like shining examples here of like

738
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: male doctors who actually give a shit about this, but

739
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 1: they are very few and far between, and for the

740
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: most part, like doctors are scared of this and don't

741
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: know much about it. Um And part of this is

742
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: based on the very again Victorian attitudes towards like sex

743
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: and sexuality at the time. So to give you an

744
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: idea of how fucked up this is. When Sims was

745
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: trained as a doctor, the standard medical procedure for doing

746
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: a pedic pelvic exam was to look directly in the

747
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 1: eyes of the patient and nowhere else because actually looking

748
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: at their genitals would have been inappropriate, really creepy. Yeah,

749
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: you are staring in their eyes, not looking at what

750
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: your hands are doing. Yeah, this is very uncomfortable. It

751
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: makes me very uncomfortable. Probably seems like it is hard

752
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: to do good medicine that way, not an O, B,

753
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: G U, I N. But I assume that makes it

754
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: more difficult. Um. So again, I stayed a list to that. Like,

755
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: given both just kind of the the the limitations of

756
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: science and the cultural limitations placed on doctors and the

757
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: doctors placed on themselves in this period, it is was

758
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: basically impossible to solve what was probably the worst pregnancy

759
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: related illness of the day, which was vaginal and rectal fistulus. Now,

760
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: these can be deeply unpleasant things to deal with. Uh.

761
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: The gist of the issue is that a whole develops. Uh.

762
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: And this is like a thing that happens due to

763
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: getting that baby out of their trauma. Yeah. Yeah, a

764
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: whole develops between a woman's bladder and vagina um. This

765
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: can lead to constant, uncomfortable and uncontrollable urinarian continents, and

766
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: worse versions of the condition lead to uncontrollable fecal incontinence too.

767
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: I probably don't need to be labor what an issue

768
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: this would be for anyone suffering from it, and what

769
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: kind of impact this would have on their life? Right? Um,

770
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: people with these fistial is cannot safely carry additional children

771
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: to term, so if they are enslaved people. Um, number one,

772
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: you can't really work with this, right, It gets in

773
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: the way of you being able to labor and be

774
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 1: a productive economic unit, and you also cannot bear additional

775
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: children's So in the minds of a slave holder, this

776
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:53,439
Speaker 1: health issue turns a woman into a complete financial loss, right,

777
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: which is how they think about these women, right, These

778
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: human beings are purely financial instruments for them. You know,

779
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: they look at them as like battle almost like not

780
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: they're non They're not looking at them they would look

781
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: at a normal patient. Right. So, from the perspective of

782
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: the people who own slaves, this is a major financial issue,

783
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: and obviously from the perspective of both enslaved women and

784
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: free women, this is also just like a horrific health

785
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: problem that there is no cure for, right, because this

786
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: this affects everybody, um, and it's I mean, I don't

787
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: again feel like I don't have to believe it, like

788
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: why everyone would want there to be a cure for this.

789
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: I just feel the need to point out that the

790
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: people who are paying Jay Marry and Sims, who's going

791
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 1: to work on this problem, want it cured specifically for

792
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: financial reasons. Right. Um Now, Jay Mary and Simms was

793
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 1: going to be the guy who fixes this problem, which

794
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: is sort of surprising because up until his thirties, women's

795
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: health was pretty much just an afterthought for him, as

796
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: he wrote, quote, I never pretended to treat any of

797
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: the diseases of women, And if any women came to

798
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: consult me on account of any functional derangement of the

799
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: uterine system, I immediately replied, this is out of my line.

800
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 1: I do not know anything about it. Practically, he advised

801
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 1: them to see He advised them to seek help with

802
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: a different physician. But all this changed one day, a

803
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: few years into his practice, when he was called to

804
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: work on a woman who had fallen off a horse

805
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: and was in pain around her back in pelvis. He

806
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: assumed he she dislocated her uterus, which I guess is

807
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: a thing that can happen. Um. He probably he was

808
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: probably a hip or something, Yeah, he said, he she

809
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 1: he thought she had dislocated her uterus right. Um, Now,

810
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 1: without going into too much detail here, he like gets

811
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 1: his hands up in there, and he kind of by

812
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: accident relieves her pain without meaning to. He like pushes

813
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: a bunch of air into the vagina, which dilates it,

814
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: and in his words, pushes it back in its normal place.

815
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: I'm not entirely certain what he's talking about here. But

816
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: the end result of this is that while he's kind

817
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: of rooting around in there, because of the stuff that

818
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: he does, he's able to get a good This woman

819
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 1: also has a fistula, which had been an untreatable problem

820
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: for her, and because of what he's doing down there,

821
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: because of the dilation of the vagina, he's able to

822
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 1: see this fistual and be what he thinks is probably

823
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 1: like one of the first doctors to get a good

824
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 1: look at it. Um. And he's close enough to it.

825
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: He can't quite see it enough, but he's he sees

826
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 1: enough of it, he's close enough to seeing that he's like,

827
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: I feel like I know how I could get a

828
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: better look at this thing. And obviously, again he's not

829
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: actually an incompetent doctor. He quite rationally is like, well, look,

830
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: I'm really close to seeing this thing. If I can

831
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: get the right tools so that I can actually get

832
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: a good look at this thing, I can figure out

833
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: how to treat them right, um, which is perfectly reasonable

834
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: medical logic at this point. Um. Now, the only issue

835
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 1: is that the right tools did not exist um today,

836
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: doctors who work on this un thing. One of the

837
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: tools that would use is called a speculum um, and

838
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: Dr Sims is the one who invents the precursor to

839
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: the speculum um. He does it by buying a pewter spoon. Uh.

840
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: He grabs two medical students, and he goes back to

841
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 1: his patient. He writes, quote, I got a table about

842
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: three ft long and put a coverlet upon it and

843
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 1: mounted her on the table on her knees, with her

844
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 1: head resting on the palm of our hands. I placed

845
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 1: the two students, one on each side of the pelvis,

846
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: and they laid hold of the needs and pulled them open.

847
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: Before I could get the bent spoon handle into the vagina,

848
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: the air rushed in with a puffing noise, dilating the

849
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: vagina to its foolish extent. Introducing the bent handle of

850
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: the spoon, I saw everything as no man had ever

851
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: seen before. So it is yeah, you know, and we

852
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with the

853
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: concept of a speculum. I'm I don't actually know. I'd

854
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: be curious to see some pictures, but I assume these

855
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: are much we we now we think about the sort

856
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 1: of disposable bivalve plastic, you know, vaginal speculum. I'm assuming

857
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 1: this was some sort of came out looking like some

858
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: sort of medieval horror device. It probably looked unsettling, yes, yeah, um,

859
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 1: but this is like this starts the process that leads

860
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: to the modern medical speculum. Right like he is and

861
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: this is this is like good. So far everything we've

862
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: talked about in this moment is like this good medicine.

863
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 1: I would I would say he's doing something, he's doing something.

864
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 1: He's yeah, he's he's following logically, he's trying to relieve

865
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: a persons you know, suffering. Um. And he realizes that

866
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 1: he can see the fistula and he's got enough working

867
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: room to experiment with surgical treatments for it. Now, this

868
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: is a big moment, right um, a big moment and

869
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 1: just like medicine. Um. But after this point things take

870
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: a much darker turn because this patient he's got, she's

871
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: a woman who has some means. She's not going to

872
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 1: let him experiment on her on like surgically experiment on here.

873
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: Because again it shouldn't be surprising to people, experimenting on

874
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: fistuli surgery is nightmarishly painful and dangerous for reasons that

875
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: should be very obvious. Because it is the eighteen thirties. Um,

876
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: this is part of why so little progress had been

877
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: made on the problem. But as George but as an

878
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: Alabama's largest plantation, Doctor Mary and Simms had a massive,

879
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: basically unlimited supply of women with fistulas, women whose consent

880
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: was immaterial, and their owners had no reason not to

881
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: send them off with Dr Sims, because, as we've discussed,

882
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,959
Speaker 1: a slave who cannot give birth, your work is nothing

883
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: but a money sync. And so Marian starts to make

884
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: deals with slave owners. They will give him their slaves

885
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: for as long as he would need them as test subjects.

886
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 1: He will pay for their food, which he did complain

887
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: about constantly in his memoirs, and the slave owners would

888
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: cover the tax that he had to pay, and he

889
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 1: would use them as experimental test subjects. Oh my god, yeah,

890
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 1: I will say, I don't. I won't belabor it. And

891
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: also it's not my wheelhouse. I'm not no beguine, but

892
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: my dad is, so you know. Dinner conversations in the

893
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: Yodah family growing up were very different than yours probably,

894
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,919
Speaker 1: and this procedure is requires a high level of skill

895
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: these days, anesthesia with either general or like talking about that, Yes,

896
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: and and are very tough things to do and I

897
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: think we take probably like an hour to do. So

898
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 1: they're not like quick things in and out. They're like

899
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: lengthy procedures, um surgeries because you have to dissect them

900
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: micoso playing and so it's really, um, it's it's pretty okay.

901
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just trying to get myself ready. No,

902
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's the thing again, we'll be talking

903
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 1: about this later. This guy is legitimately good at what

904
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: he does. Like the actual he is not a quack.

905
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: The actual thing he comes up with is an important thing. Um.

906
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about some other aspects of that

907
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: that make this even more morally questionable. But like what

908
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: he's what he's doing, he's not he's not bad at

909
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: the medical side of it. It's the ethics side of

910
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: it that where things become problematic. Um. But you know

911
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 1: what else is problematic? Not sure? First, not having products

912
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 1: and services exactly. Not engaging with these products and these

913
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: services is the ultimate way to be problematic. Um, Because

914
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: if you're not engaging with these products and services, are

915
00:47:51,800 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: you really alive or American? Exactly? Damn? Oh oh, merry Christmas. Um,

916
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 1: it's not Christmas. It's nowhere near Christmas. It's I thought

917
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: Paul had murdered you, Santa Claus. He did, he did.

918
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 1: Paul Schaeffer shot Santa Claus in a ditch. And today

919
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 1: we're going to shoot our fun recollection of residencies and

920
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 1: the medical training or something like that. We're certainly gonna complicated.

921
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: Um so um. He gets these a number of slave

922
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: owners to agree to hand over enslaved women to him.

923
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: He is effectively their owner during this period of time

924
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: in a legal sense of the word. He begins his

925
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,439
Speaker 1: experiments in eighteen forty five. He is thirty three years old.

926
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 1: Most historians writing about this will note that he had

927
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: three patients, Lucy, Anarca, and Betsy. And I had not

928
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: heard the name in Arca before this dope ass name

929
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: spelled like you'd think it is. Uh. And this is

930
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: where we get to the root of why Dr Simms

931
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: has been canceled by modern critics. Um. They alleged that

932
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: what he did was human experimentation without consent, because true

933
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: informed consent is impossible from a person who is enslaved,

934
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 1: like you can't consent to be experimented upon if you

935
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: are owned by the person doing the experimenting. Now, I

936
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: don't think the ethics they're complicated like um, like you

937
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: know autonomy, it's likely of medical ethics you have to

938
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: have informed consent and you have to have some control

939
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: over one's body exactly, exactly, um. Now, there are a

940
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: number of people who are detractors to this idea, and

941
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: the most notable of them is Dr L. L. Wall Um.

942
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: We will be talking about this guy quite a bit,

943
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: you know, on this show we occasionally will have like

944
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: defenders of weird fucked up things. Often it will be

945
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: like we're talking about some British empire motherfucker, and like

946
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,720
Speaker 1: his biographer who thinks he was he's the Bee's Knees

947
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,800
Speaker 1: and like writes a long things defending him massacreing people

948
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 1: in Africa or whatever. This is a bit different. Dr L. O.

949
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 1: Wall I think is very very wrong and some of

950
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: his arguments are pretty messed up. That said, from what

951
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: I can tell, he's spent a lot of his career

952
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: flying to impoverished parts of the world and performing surgeries

953
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: on people with fistula's. I think his he's passionate about

954
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: this because he's dedicated his career to dealing with this

955
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: specific health issue, and SIMS is the guy who, like

956
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 1: most fixed it again l O Wall is wrong here,

957
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: but he's not the same as like some dude whose

958
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: job is to professionally defend the British Empire, because it

959
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: does seem like his day job is helping people for

960
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 1: free with a serious medical issue, which is nice. Um. Anyway,

961
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: I wanted to provide that context because we will be

962
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 1: tearing apart some of these guy. This guy's arguments in

963
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,240
Speaker 1: a little bit here. Um, I'm sorry, he's uh modern doctor.

964
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: L yeah, yeah, he's he's around right now. Uh he

965
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 1: has yes. Um, I think his arguments are bad, but

966
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: here is one he made in a rite up in

967
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: the Journal of Medical Ethics. This is an ongoing series

968
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: of arguments that that other people have had with him. Quote.

969
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: The first assertion was that it was unethical by any

970
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: standard to perform experimental surgical operations on slaves because slaves

971
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,240
Speaker 1: by definition, could not have given voluntary, informed consent for surgery.

972
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: Underlying this assertion is the hidden presumption presupposition that enslaved

973
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: women with fishtalists did not want surgical care for their condition,

974
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 1: and that they were therefore coerced into having unwanted and

975
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: perhaps unnecessary surgery. Now, I would argue that that's not

976
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 1: actually a hidden presupposition, because like we're not saying they

977
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: don't want surgical care. We're saying they can't give informed

978
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 1: consent to be experimented upon, which is different. Right. Obviously,

979
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: anyone who has a medical condition wants it to be treated, um,

980
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean you want to be a test subject,

981
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: you know, in a medical experiment. Um. His argument then,

982
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: is that this particular medical problem is such a nightmare

983
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: that these women were basically beating down Simms's door to

984
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: get treatment. In his memoire, Sims claims that he received

985
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: enthusiastic consent from Lucy, Anarca and Betsy. We have no

986
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: actual levi of this. This is something he writes down later.

987
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 1: None of these women, as far as we know, could

988
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,280
Speaker 1: read or write. They have left us absolutely no written

989
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: documentation of their consent. Calls absolute this guy. But by

990
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 1: the way, I'm so sorry. I know I shouldn't do

991
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: this because you're giving me all the information right now,

992
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 1: but I just google. That's come so fascinating to know

993
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 1: that there's like a modern day like enthusiast of Dr

994
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: Sims and there is this article in the Journal of

995
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 1: Medical Ethics by L. L. Wall, The medical ethics of

996
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 1: Dr J. Mary and Sims a fresh a fresh look

997
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 1: at the historical record. That one of the things that

998
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: we're quoting from here is that, Yeah, in his conclusions,

999
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 1: he says, Uh, in conclusion, it's difficult to make a

1000
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 1: fair assessment of the medical ethics of past practitioners. Yeah,

1001
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: I don't think it is here, buddy, seems pretty open.

1002
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: I think who knows it's gonna get it's gonna open

1003
00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: up further. Um So again, uh, number one, Obviously, outside

1004
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: of what I just said, even if you ask a

1005
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: person that you legally own if they consent to surgical

1006
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: experimentation and they say yes, that still doesn't count as consent,

1007
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: right for a variety of things. I think what should

1008
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: be obvious reasons, right because you own them legally, and like, again,

1009
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: they don't like if their consent is immaterial, Um, then

1010
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: I don't know that. I like, I don't think they

1011
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 1: can consent. And that's current like medical ethics, is that

1012
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 1: they cannot consent to respect autonomy, they be given all

1013
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 1: the tools to make their own informed decision. And I'm

1014
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: certain that was not happening. Yeah, but but I mean,

1015
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: even outside of that number one, we have no evidence

1016
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: other than Sims's words that they told him that they consented.

1017
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: And I want to quote from that right up by

1018
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: Monica Cronan. Again, she notes that Sims published as memoirs

1019
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 1: well after the end of slavery in the United States,

1020
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: and that he may consciously have wanted to put himself

1021
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: in a positive light by claiming that these women had

1022
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: consented to his experiments. Quote. Sims is memoires is likely

1023
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: to be a reflection of changing attitudes towards formerly enslaved

1024
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 1: people and self conscious image making, as it is to

1025
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,240
Speaker 1: be an accurate portrayal of events. Now. L. L. Wall's

1026
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 1: argument is that it's pretty obvious the women would have

1027
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: consented because a fistula is such a horrible thing to endure.

1028
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: He goes into some detail here quote. In addition to

1029
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 1: the continuous stream of urine and sometimes fecies to which

1030
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,720
Speaker 1: they are subjected, these victims of prolonged obstructed labor also

1031
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: often suffer from secondary and fertility. Loss of vaginal function

1032
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: due to extensive scarring of the birth canal damage to

1033
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: the pubic bones, contractors of the lower extremities from neur

1034
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: muscular damage, recurring pelvic and urinary tract infections, horribly diminished

1035
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: self esteem, damaged body image, and not infrequently severe depression,

1036
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 1: even suicide. The cumulative devastation brought by this process can

1037
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 1: be appalling. It is hardly the relatively minor condition referred

1038
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: to by historian Deborah Coon McGregor, and he does have

1039
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: a point there. I think it's probably a bad call

1040
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,720
Speaker 1: to refer to this as a relatively minor condition um.

1041
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: But then L. L. Wall extends his argument and what

1042
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 1: I think is a real fockd up place quote in

1043
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: alleging that it is unethical for slaves to participate in

1044
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: any form of medical experimentation, O Januga and the other

1045
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: writers seem to imply that they wouldn't, that it would

1046
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: never have been appropriate for slaves to undergo innovative surgical operations,

1047
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 1: no matter what their problems might have been. Critics of

1048
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: this stripe conveniently ignore the differences between non therapeutic and

1049
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: therapeutic medical experimentation. In the former case, participants can have

1050
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,760
Speaker 1: no reasonable expectation of obtaining direct personal benefit from whatever

1051
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 1: is done, But in the case of therapeutic experimentation. Research

1052
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 1: participants may gain direct and sometimes substantial medical relief as

1053
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: a result of their participation in a clinical trial. At

1054
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,720
Speaker 1: the time Sims began as experiments to repair the fistual

1055
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: as affecting afflicting his African American slave patients, there was

1056
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: no effective therapy for vestico vaginal fistula. Many surgeons in

1057
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 1: different countries had made repeated but unsuccessful attempts to close

1058
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 1: veso vaginal fistulas and put it into the tormenting loss

1059
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 1: of urine that these suffering women experienced. With rare exceptions,

1060
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: all such attempts failed. Now, one of the key points

1061
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: against this argument that he's making is that that last

1062
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 1: part is not true. Right and again, if there were

1063
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: doctors who had successfully provided therapeutic treatments for fistula and

1064
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,919
Speaker 1: had done it without experimenting on enslaved people, then it's

1065
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: reasonable too. It's even more reasonable to say that doctor

1066
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: Sims was engaging in unnecessary human experimentation on enslaved people.

1067
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: And several doctors had treated fistula successfully as far back

1068
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: as sixteen seventy five. John Paul Mattower of Virginia had

1069
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 1: successfully treated one in eighteen forty and by eighteen fifty

1070
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 1: five had repeated this feat twenty seven times. George Hayward

1071
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 1: had closed his first fistula in eighteen thirty nine. Now,

1072
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 1: this techniques that doctor Sims is going to develop are

1073
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: more repeatable and and and are an important, really important

1074
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: part in figuring out a better and kind of more

1075
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 1: mainstream treatment for this um. And he was probably the

1076
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 1: most tenacious doctor in his field attempting to figure out

1077
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: a replicable treatment. But the fact that multiple other doctors

1078
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,320
Speaker 1: were working successfully on fistula in the same period without

1079
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,320
Speaker 1: and experimenting on enslaved people further makes the case that

1080
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: Dr Sims was not experimenting on these women because there

1081
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: was no other way, nor was he doing it primarily

1082
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: for their benefit. He did it because it was easier. Um.

1083
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: That's that's pretty key to me. Um. Yeah, I mean,

1084
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 1: I guess, on one hand, you know, it's fine to

1085
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: make this argument that you know, prior to like ninety four,

1086
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: with like the National Research Act, in the Belmont Report,

1087
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: all that stuff that came after the Tuskegee experiment, Like

1088
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 1: it's fair to say that before that there was no

1089
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: framework of like you know, I R. B. S. Studies

1090
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: that you need that that that's a fair argument, but

1091
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: you can't get around the fact that even at the time,

1092
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was widely considered unethical. And then yeah,

1093
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:51,919
Speaker 1: I'm assuming he's doing these without anesthesia, but is he not?

1094
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: But ansthesia was around from like I think eighteen forty

1095
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: six SAT. Seven. I think the anstegia was around at

1096
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: point right. Yeah, Um, we are going to uh, we'll

1097
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: be talking about that a lot in part two. Um no, no, no,

1098
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: we will be That's that's important. You will be getting

1099
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: into the um. But yeah, it's it's also worth noting

1100
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:21,479
Speaker 1: that like um and this is also very important. While

1101
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: Mary and Sims does make sure to claim that the

1102
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: three women who are named in his book gave their consent,

1103
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: he also introduces quite blithely that there were multiple other

1104
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: enslaved women he used as test subjects. By some accounts,

1105
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: like seven. He doesn't even give their names. Uh, he

1106
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 1: makes vague comments that they wanted his help. There is

1107
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: no claim that like these people uh even consented to

1108
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: the extent that like the others did, which again is

1109
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: not really consent. But like that's part that offer that

1110
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: gets ignored by l l Wall. It gets ignored by

1111
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people because it's like, well, he names

1112
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: he gives the names of three of them, but there

1113
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 1: were a lot of he because why would he bother right,

1114
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 1: like they're not people to him. Um. And again later

1115
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 1: in his memoir, despite these this like single vague claim

1116
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 1: he makes about consent, he also makes this note quite

1117
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 1: and this is how he introduces that there were other

1118
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:12,919
Speaker 1: women he experimented on who are not named. I got

1119
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 1: three or four more to experiment on, and there was

1120
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 1: never a time that I could not at any day

1121
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: have had a subject for an operation. Again, he's very

1122
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: clear about what he's doing here. Yeah, I mean he

1123
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: he's he sees them as test subjects, not as humans. Um.

1124
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: I mean again, the very basics of like medical ethics,

1125
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: like even I know, and I'm not like an expert

1126
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 1: in medical ethics by any means. Non malfeasance, autonomy, justice,

1127
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: all these like basic concepts that are again very basic.

1128
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 1: They're not all modern and stuff are not being adhered

1129
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 1: to in the slightest here. Yeah, and that's I mean,

1130
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: that's what we're gonna leave it for part one. We

1131
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: get into part two, it's it's actually even worse than

1132
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 1: that Covic. But you know what's not worse than that

1133
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 1: uh podcast, that's right. I actually now not host two.

1134
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: The first one is of the House of Pod. It's

1135
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 1: a sort of humor adjacent medical podcast. I have on

1136
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 1: lots of great guests. We have doctors, we have musicians,

1137
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: we have Roberts, we have sophies come on the show

1138
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 1: and we uh we talked about medical stuff, science stuff.

1139
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: It's fun and that you can find anywhere you find

1140
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: your podcast. It is thank you. It's a it's a

1141
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: good time and you might learn something very very stuff

1142
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 1: And we kind of cover if you like these same

1143
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:41,919
Speaker 1: sorts of topics that you guys cover here you we'll

1144
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 1: cover a lot of similar stuff. And then, um, there's

1145
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 1: a new show I'm doing with Rebecca Watson, who is awesome,

1146
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: amazing of skep chic and we it's called Girls on Boys.

1147
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: It is a podcast where we uh talk about take

1148
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 1: deep dives on the show The Boys, which I find

1149
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 1: immensely entertained and I think it is one of the

1150
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 1: best satires show. Also, man Eric Kripkey knows how to

1151
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 1: do gore. Some of the best television gore I've seen

1152
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: any ever. We we should talk about exploding penises at

1153
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 1: some point. Man, that's a good scene. It was. I mean,

1154
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 1: the whole prostate anatomy is there's a question there with that.

1155
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: But I'm not surprised. Yeah, but the show is amazing

1156
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 1: and and it impresses, it surprises me in the most

1157
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 1: fun ways. So I think it's a smart show. We

1158
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: talk about it. That's Girls on Boys. It's a podcast.

1159
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 1: You can find it at iTunes. Yeah, check that out. Um.

1160
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 1: I have a book called After the Revolution. If you

1161
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 1: want to buy it and you're looking where you can

1162
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: get it an indie bookstore in your area. You can

1163
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 1: check out this thing I just learned about called bookshop

1164
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: dot org. If you get a bookshop dot org type

1165
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 1: and After the Revolution you can find my book. There's

1166
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 1: a couple of dollar discount on it. Now. You can

1167
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: also just go to a k press After the Revolution

1168
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 1: just google that and you'll find it. So I love

1169
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 1: that book. But it's a great book. It's really good,

1170
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 1: it's really enjoyed. Great. Thank you working on the sequel. Um,

1171
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 1: you can get it everywhere else to wherever the funk

1172
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: you find a book. But someone told me bookshop dot

1173
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,439
Speaker 1: org helps out indie bookstores, So maybe try that out. Yeah,

1174
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 1: go to cools on media dot com to see the

1175
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: rest of the stuff we're working on. Check out you know,

1176
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 1: Ghost Churchard, politics, cool people, cool stuff's check it all out,

1177
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: come on or else fucker's