WEBVTT - Selects: How Police Interrogation Works 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.880 M Hey, everybody, it's Josh and for this week's s 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:07.520 Y s k Seles, I've chosen how police interrogation works 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:11.080 from back in two thousand and fourteen. It's a really 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:16.000 fascinating look into how the cops get people to admit 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:18.639 that they did the worst thing they ever did in 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:21.960 their entire life, and some people who didn't do anything 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.960 at all to admit that they did something. If you 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:27.760 thought that was confusing, just wait till you hear this episode. 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:30.640 But it is pretty mind blowing, So buckle up. I 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:33.320 hope you enjoy and as much as anything, I hope 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:40.960 it really opens your eyes. Welcome to Stuff you should know, 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:49.600 A production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.839 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.560 uh and Noel. I guess producer nol is over there, 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.680 which makes this stuff you should know. Jerry's on the beach. 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.920 Good for her. Yeah, and I'm Jelly. Yeah. It'd be 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.520 nice to be on the beach right now. Sure would 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.600 podcasting on the beach. Yeah, there's a beach person for sure. 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:14.680 In uh is she okay? She was flip pops like 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.080 in the dead of winter. Yeah, that's true. The beach 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.920 person which got nice feet up. Can I say that 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.679 I acquired for saying that. I don't think so. If 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:27.160 you said it, like alone in a room or something 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:29.080 she didn't feel like she could leave, you'd probably get 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.320 fired for that. But yeah, saying it on the podcast 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.040 to everybody's probably in the clear. Okay, we'll find out. 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:37.720 I mean, she edits these so she'll say thanks Juckers. 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:45.800 You so Chuck. Have you ever been interrogated by the police. No, 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.400 that's good. No, it's a good way to be. I 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:51.520 was shaking down on the street once, but they didn't 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:55.559 ask us any questions. Stopping frisk Yeah, in New York. 0:01:55.800 --> 0:02:00.320 In Athens, m just walk into the car after being out, 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:05.680 threw us all against the wall. Fristus been left. I'm 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:07.840 sure it was a real cop. Yeah, there were cops. Man. 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:09.720 I was like, what's going on? Huh? I don't even know. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.680 I still don't know what happened. Well, I guess they 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.600 were just stopping and frisking. A little known fact, Athens, 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.720 George is the real home of stopping frisk Well, five 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.200 minutes after it happened, we didn't care. You know, these 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.360 are college days. Yeah. Now though you must be burning 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:28.200 with a sense of injustice over the whole thing. Well, 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.000 I ask you if you've ever been interrogated by the police, 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.440 because we're about to talk about police interrogation, so it 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:39.120 seems appropriate. And before we get started, I have some 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:43.400 side reading that I think my interest some people. Um 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:48.240 there is a New Yorker article called the Interview. Um, 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:51.120 there's one called Joe Arity was the Happiest Man on 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.720 Death Row. It's in Westward. Uh, there's something called Brooklyn's 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:59.000 Baddest which was in g Q. And then lastly, looking 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.880 left or right doesn't indicate your lying in Smithsonian. So 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.480 all those articles are awesome, and they all have something 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.400 to do with this police interrogation, which is it turns 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:13.000 out becoming an increasingly controversial subject. Yeah, and I think 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.840 this probably brings our police suite to a close or 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.320 close to it, don't you think? I think so every 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.639 time I know, and I didn't even know this existed, 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:23.960 and then I saw it and it turned out to 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:25.800 be one of the more interesting ones, I think. Yeah, 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:30.920 and it's kind of falls into this um law enforcement category, 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:38.480 into the subcategory of are largely debunked armchair psychological or 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:44.280 armchair psychology techniques like polygraph Yeah, we did that, Fingerprints, 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:48.160 we did that, truth serum we did that. Yeah. Like, 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:50.160 there's all these episodes that we've done out there about 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.520 just law enforcement techniques. We're doing them. We were like, 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.240 oh wow, this is this should not be the way 0:03:56.240 --> 0:04:02.120 it is. And apparently police interrogations similar. Yeah, it's a 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.280 bit of a shakedown. So let's talk about this. Like 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:08.960 in in the United States, there is um a long 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:13.920 and storied history of rather intense interrogation and I think 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.240 you know this, this comes before the United States too. 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.200 We did a medieval torture episode as well. There are 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.560 plenty of interrogations going on. We did the Spanish Inquisition 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.560 that was pre United States. Yeah, I would I would 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.120 say that falls into the banner though, of our police 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:35.440 and crime interrogation. Yeah right, So, um, the United States, though, 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:40.960 has carried on the torch of basically beating suspects up 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.839 to get confessions. This is where the term the third 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.120 degree comes from. Actually, like when somebody's like, hey, why 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.400 do you give me the third degree? They may or 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:54.280 may not know it, but they're they're speaking about interrogation 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.720 techniques that cats use to use yeah, those third degree techniques. 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:02.200 A lot of were involved deprivation, like or you know 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:03.880 the one where they shine the bright light in your face. 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.599 That's old school. Yeah, that's an old movie trope. But 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:10.000 you know, no access to food and water, Um, long 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.400 periods of isolation. We might beat up a little bit, 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.080 we might threaten you. That's the third degree, right, And 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:20.520 then uh, starting in about the thirties, the public started 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.599 to say, I don't know if this is such a 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.560 good idea because I might end up in a police 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:27.960 interrogation one day, and I don't want to get beat up. 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.720 And then the I guess the straw that started to 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.279 break the camel's back came in ninety seven in the 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:39.599 case Brown versus Mississippi, where Brown said, Hey, your thug 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:41.800 cops tied me up to a tree and with me 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:45.120 more than once, not just with me more than once. 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:47.280 Strung me up in a tree to whip me more 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.920 than once has happened repeatedly, and I don't think that 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.000 the confession they got should stand. The Supreme Court said, 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.039 we agree with you. Yeah, it was He and his 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.320 two buddies were accused of murdering Uh. They were tenant farmers, 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:02.239 murdering their ball. Basically. Of course, they were black guys 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.320 and the boss was a white guy, so they were 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.920 pretty determined. Then well we'll see over and over. A 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:13.080 lot of these cases of coerced false confessions are mainly 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:18.000 because someone really wants to tab somebody as the criminal. Well, yeah, 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:19.920 for a lot of different reasons. There can be a 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:24.880 sense of injustice. There can be a genuine conviction that 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.680 this person is guilty um, and then there can be 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:33.279 the you know, the case clearance um percentage that a 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:34.960 cop needs to keep up. But there's a lot of 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:40.400 reasons why a cop might say you need to confess. Yeah. 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:41.960 I think a lot of them too that I've seen 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:44.400 documentaries on at least or because of the public, Like, 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.560 hey man, we really need to finger somebody for this, 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:51.599 because people are scared, and who better than this person 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.120 who might not be too smart or might but might 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.640 be kind of poor and can't afford and doesn't you know, 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.920 representation doesn't know what's going on. So let's run them up, 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.720 run them up, ring them up, sure, run them up 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:08.120 a flagpole, right and see if it sticks to the wall. Yeah. 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.280 But despite the fact that it is not easy to 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:15.640 get someone to confess. Uh, they estimate between fort of 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:19.280 suspects do confess and that's the one thing you don't 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:23.000 want to do, and up still do it. Yeah, so 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:28.280 we should say supposedly up to um eight percent of 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:31.280 suspects in in the United States waive their right to 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.480 silence and counsel. Yeah that's just wait, that's just agreeing 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:39.040 to be interrogated, right, not necessarily confessing. Yeah. So, but 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.040 you can get around the whole idea of a false 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.800 confession or of being coerced into confessing or whatever, just 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.560 by remaining silent, not being like part of that demand 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.560 your lawyer. I mean, we're gonna give you some tips, um, 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.200 not how to get away with a crime, but some 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.280 tips on if you if you are rounded up and 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.840 put in a room, there are some things you can do. Right. 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:05.160 This is a public service announcement with guitars. By the 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:11.640 nineteen fifties, they confessions that were involuntary. Um, they consider 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.080 it involuntary, not just if you were beaten and threatened, 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.760 but if you were all the deprivation third degree techniques 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.200 were no longer allowed, like even if you couldn't use 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.400 the bathroom, or if you've been promised something in return 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:25.920 for confessing, or we'll go easy on you, buddy, or 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:30.120 if you'd even just been threatened, that counts as coercion too, 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:34.520 And so in about the fifties, UM the United States said, Hey, 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:39.199 this kindler, kinder, gentler interrogation technique thing is is starting 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.640 to work out. Let's put a bow on the whole 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.439 thing and say that for a confession to be admissible, 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:50.559 the the confess or has to sign it yeah and 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:54.439 say yeah, I didn't I didn't do anything under coercion. 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:58.839 This is my own, full, free confession and here's my signature, 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.760 and UM, which helped but certainly didn't stop false confessions. Right. 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:08.000 So the thing is is, UM law enforcement replaced the 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:14.559 physical coercion with what amounts to plainly is psychological manipulation. 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:20.920 And it's predicated on the idea that you when you 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:26.079 are saying you didn't do something and you're guilty, you 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:30.320 are going to become stressed out. And then the that 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:34.720 stress is derived from anxiety over knowing you're guilty and 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.120 having to lie. Because when you're being interrogated and you're 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:42.040 denying that you're guilty, the cops don't just say oh, okay, 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.720 well thanks, for coming by. If they think you're guilty, 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.720 they or they want to think you're guilty, they're going 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:52.199 to keep pressing you. Like interrogations aren't necessarily brief things, right, 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:56.040 So the more they press you, the more stressed you 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.320 should get. And the more stressed you get under this 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.520 idea of um interrogation technique, the obvious, the more obvious 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.320 it is that you're guilty, which means the more they press, 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.280 So this feedback loop starts, right Yeah. I mean they're 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.440 basically relying on a few basic human things inherent to humans, 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:18.200 tendencies inherent to humans. Um. One is you're gonna probably 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.280 open up more to someone who is like you, uh, 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:23.679 to their If you start talking, it's gonna be hard 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:26.640 to stop. And three, if you're if you're telling the truth, 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.199 it's gonna be harder to lie. Right, So they kind 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:33.280 of prey on that with some age old techniques like 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:37.079 the good cop, bad cop. Right you you uh, if 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.360 you feel like you're being persecuted, but then you're also 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.160 being rescued by somebody else, you're going to identify with 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.439 the rescuer, trust them. That's a classic move. And here's 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:47.439 the thing like that, a lot of this stuff, like 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:51.839 the Good Cop part um is predicated on this complete 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:56.000 and utter deception that that cop understands where you're coming 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.839 from and sympathizes with you. That cop does not sympathize 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.880 with few. That cop may understand where you come from, 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.760 but he or she probably despises that, and they are 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.800 not your friend. But the whole one of the whole 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.319 points of um of interrogation is for the cop to 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.120 pretend like they're they're right there with you, they understand 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.440 where you're coming from, they feel for you. This is 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:20.640 just you're jammed up and I want to help you 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:22.439 get out of it. Oh yeah, you see. I mean 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.360 if if all this sounds super familiar from every TV 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.760 show or movie you've ever seen, is because they it's 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:32.640 been written so much that it's almost like they don't 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.120 need to do their own Like writers don't even need 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:37.760 to do their own research into how this is differ 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:40.679 because it's just how it is in the movies. When 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:42.120 it is in the movies is how it is in 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.200 real life. When I was reading this, I was like, oh, yeah, 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.280 I've seen that before. I've seen that technique before, Like 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.599 it made me Actually researching this article made me appreciate 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.960 that there are some TV cop show writers out there 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.360 who like really do their homework, Like The Wire, like 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:00.680 every it was a little more nuance. It's like law 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.040 and Order. Um, what is it? Uh? I don't watch 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.360 those the one Vincent didn't offer you. I don't know. Oh, 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.640 I can't remember what it's called criminal minds something like that. 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.439 It's not it, um, like it's a little more overt, right, 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.000 but it's all the all the factors are there. Yeah. 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:21.640 Another one of the tried and true techniques is maximization. 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.920 That's when they try to scare you. Um, if you've 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.400 ever heard like, oh you're you're pretty Josh, they're gonna 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:32.079 love you in prisoner. I hear that almost every day. 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:36.439 That is a classic maximization, or just you know, they're 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.640 going to throw the book at you for what you've done. 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.880 You're unless you you know, start playing along, you're gonna 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.520 get the max exactly. Um. They may also go the 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:50.120 exact opposite route, which is minimization, which is to create 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:54.920 the idea that society will will commiserate with you because 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.600 anybody in your position would have done the same thing. 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.439 You know, like that that little lady was ask him 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:02.360 for her person to be taken. You know, in this 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.400 day and age, in this economy, that kind of thing. Um, 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.760 polygraph was used for a while, and they still use that, 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.360 but most times, um, if you listen to our show 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:17.360 on polygraphs, they're not admissible in court. So a man 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.920 named John Reid, he was a polygraph analyst, said, you 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.640 know what, there's a lot of things that happen during 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.720 a polygraph exam that we can use without the machine, 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:32.880 just to root out the truth or lies. Yeah. Basically, 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.360 John Reid said, Hey, I've noticed through all of my 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:39.520 experience all of these things that a person who is 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:44.400 guilty or who confesses at least goes through. And here 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:48.319 are some ways to like really make this more efficient, 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.680 to make them react more strongly, to get them to 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:55.280 confess faster, more forcefully. And he came up with the 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.559 order called the Read Technique nine steps of the Read Technique, 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.840 trademark of Johnny Reidon Associates. Yeah, really, because Johnny Reidon 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.880 Associates is like this business that's still very much around. Yeah. 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:08.400 I don't know if I need to say that, but 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.920 it is their technique. Yeah, And they train the CIA, 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:17.840 the FBI, the local law enforcement there, like the in 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.200 the United States, the red technique is the gold standard 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:25.880 for police interrogation. The problem is it is also being 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:31.320 increasingly proven to be based on basically armchair psychology and 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.440 not science. It's say, it's going through the same thing 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:36.800 right now that like a lot of the forensic sciences 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.880 are going through. There's like based on intuition that doesn't 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:44.920 really hold up to scrutiny. And I should say the 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.920 red technique has not been across the board debunked, and 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:52.800 it makes sense in a lot of ways, but there 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.240 are studies out there that have said, like this doesn't 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.520 really this doesn't really hold up. Yeah, he defends it. Uh, 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.200 he says, it's very sound technique, but false confession comes 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:07.360 from improper use in bad police work. Yeah, and it's 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.680 not it's not necessarily like the read people are treated 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:14.119 like they're you know, they're out to get anybody and everybody. 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.360 The Red technique is criticized because the whole foundation that 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:22.400 it's built on is the presumption of guilt, and it 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:28.040 has been shown to prove or produce false um confessions. 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:53.080 That's right, all right, If you sit down in a 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.200 in a room to get interrogated by the cops. One 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.680 thing that they're probably going to start doing is lying 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.920 to you and saying we have evidence that they may 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.840 not have. We have witnesses that put you at the 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:12.240 scene that don't exist. Basically, with a few exceptions, cops 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.800 can lie and say whatever they want in there. And 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:16.800 that is going to make someone nervous. Even though you 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.040 were you know, surgical gloves when you broke into that house, 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:22.680 if they say your fingers are all over the place, 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:26.120 you're gonna start second guessing yourself and get nervous. Yeah. 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.480 And even if like you weren't in that house ever, 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:30.320 and you know that you weren't in that house, you're 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.160 gonna start to wonder if maybe you suffer from blackouts 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.520 and do horrible things like this cop is saying, Wow, 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.480 you're blacked out. Um, And yeah, the courts of upheld 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.720 the cops right to deceive. Uh. And I've read about 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:47.160 a study that found that of six and thirty detectives 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.400 in the U. S. And Canada that were pulled say 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:55.000 they use false evidence ploys where they're saying you have 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.760 surprised it is not a hundred yeah, you would guess, 0:16:57.800 --> 0:16:59.720 I mean maybe the other eight percent We're just like 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.400 they didn't even look at what they were saying, you know, 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:06.720 but yeah, they you can and they do say we 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:10.240 have your fingerprints, we have a witness, we have d 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.800 n A. They can completely lie about what they have 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.119 and that they have it on you to get you 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:22.520 to confess. It doesn't matter. You can't say, well that 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.840 cops said he had evidence doesn't matter. And the whole 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.359 legal basis for this idea for the cops to be 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:33.880 letting the cops deceive is this uh longstanding notion that 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:38.520 no innocent person would ever sign a confession even if 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.439 they were lied to about physical evidence of their guilt 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.360 being at the scene of the crime, because there they 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.480 know they're not guilty. The problem is that long standing 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:52.440 idea is coming under more and more scrutiny is being 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.600 found to be not the case. Like people, it's been 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.240 shown people will when lied to in situations like that, 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:01.600 they will infest the things that they did not do. 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.400 I know it seems crazy for people like you and me, um, 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.399 because I know I would never do that, but you know, 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:11.840 I'm not mentally challenged or I'm not poor, and I 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.280 haven't you know, there's a lot of reasons why someone 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:19.000 might falsely confess. Yeah, and I think though also it's 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:23.280 not just necessarily like going how you are going into it. Like, Yes, 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:27.080 the a lot of the like mentally ill people UM 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:31.480 make up a decent amount of UM false confessions. Same 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:37.320 with UM, mentally handicapped, cognitively impaired people, UM, people of 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.280 low socioeconomic status. There are a lot of a lot 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.200 of factors that set you up to be more likely 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:45.240 to have a false or give a false confession. Knowing 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:47.920 your rights. But if you took if we took you 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:52.760 and ran you through a long enough UM interrogation with 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.840 people who knew what they were doing, they who knows 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.760 what you would sign, I'd be all right, we'll see 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:01.400 because I am stand this all. I know my rights. 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.400 I have a very strong mind. Probably say I want 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.639 a lawyer. Well yeah, I just ended all. And then 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:11.040 I'd be like, m, I don't know any lawyers. Do 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:13.719 you know a lawyer? I have an entertainment attorney. Does 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:18.760 that count? Um, they know lawyers? Yeah, exactly. This is 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:21.560 the whole network. So UM, once they bring you in 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:23.680 the room, the room itself uh. And this is all 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:27.840 from Read's manual. He wrote a manual nineteen sixty two 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:32.280 with a Northwestern law professor named fred Inboo called Criminal 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.560 Interrogation and Confessions. I imagine every writer in Hollywood has 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.679 a copy of that on their shelf. Um. But the 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.560 room that you see on TV, that's what there they suggest, 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.399 you know, nothing on the walls, a very plain desk, 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:49.040 a very uncomfortable chair on one side, two chairs on 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.520 the other for the detectives. UM, that one way mirror 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.600 that's gonna serve a purpose of letting people spy on 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:57.480 you and just to make you nervous even if there's 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.680 no one on the other side, and put you out 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.280 of reach from this one. I didn't really uh, I 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:05.520 had never really noticed. But out of reachs from just 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.600 light switches and maybe the the a c uh, what 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.639 do you call those thermostatic thermostatic just to make you 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.159 feel powerless. It's all a mind game to make you 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:19.679 feel helpless. So far seems pretty intuitive, pretty logical, Like 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:21.840 if you can't flip the lights on and off, it's 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:23.520 not something I would think that I would want to 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.240 do right then, but maybe knowing seeing that it was 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.359 that far away, yeah, woid just give me this reinforced 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.600 the idea that, Like, I couldn't even if I wanted to, 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:33.600 because it's all the way over there. That's probably small 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.240 detective in between me and that, like exactly, but it 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:40.840 makes sense. But I point that out because that's that's 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:45.200 the read technique. Stuff like that, keep the light switches 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:47.800 away from the criminal because it'll make him feel helpless, 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:50.720 right does It sounds a little hinky, but it it 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:54.119 makes sense in a way. That is the read technique encapsulating. 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.880 So let's continue, Chuck, So that was that's just the room. Yeah, yeah, 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.679 that they suggest there there if you follow the re 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:04.000 technique to a t, and this is one of the 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:08.000 saving graces of it. Um, you're supposed to do what's 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.040 an initial interview, And if you're the detective and you 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:14.760 go into in an initial interview of an interrogation, you 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:19.600 are the re technique tasks you with going in without 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.600 a presumption of guilt. Yet that's the point of the 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.040 initial interview, is you're supposed to be sizing your guy 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:29.919 up and determining for yourself as a seasoned investigator, whether 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:33.760 you think initially they're guilty or innocent. I'm sure that 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:37.440 happens some Yeah, there's another study that found that it's 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:41.800 often skipped as well. Um, and that's they just start 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:44.399 like hammering right away. Well, yeah, you're throwing out the 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:48.439 the the potential for this, um, this person to be 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:51.560 treated as possibly innocent. You're not sizing up. You're going 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.439 in assuming they're guilty. So but if you if you 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:57.919 do go through that initial interview, the other point of 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:01.080 it is that you're supposed to be creating a bay line. Yeah, 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.560 which I think is that showed up in the polygraph 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:06.639 one too, Yeah, which isn't surprising because John Reid was 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:09.200 a polygraph expert for a while too. Yeah, and you've 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.879 been gratiated yourself, you know, in the first few minutes 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:15.240 by this point, like, uh, if if you're if you're 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:17.880 in Philadelphia and your suspect has on like a Phillies cap, 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.320 you might talk about the game last night, right exactly. 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:23.880 And that that throws back to um, the suspect being 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:26.520 more likely. Can you trust someone that shares their same 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.080 views that they feel they can identify with, So the 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:32.960 detective will do whatever they can to make it seem like, oh, 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:35.920 you're a Catholic, I'm a Catholic too, that kind of thing, 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:38.119 you know. Yeah, And so once you've got a little 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.400 bit of rapport going on, is when you're gonna set 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.240 your baseline. And I thought this is pretty interesting. You don't, 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:45.919 and I'm gonna start looking for this on cop shows 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:48.760 to see if they don't overtly talk about it, if 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:52.479 they're just how good they are with their you know, uh, 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:57.560 with their acting, because if they're looking at the eyes, um, 0:22:57.720 --> 0:22:59.639 then they're going to be accurate, because that's one of 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:03.080 the way is supposedly you can create a baseline. Um, 0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:06.879 you're gonna ask some some questions that require memory recall, 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:11.239 and you're gonna ask other questions that require more creativity, 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:13.880 and you're gonna look at where their eyes go. Supposedly, 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:18.480 if your eyes moved to the right, that is just recall, 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:21.040 because you're I guess looking in the direction of your 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:24.080 memory center of your brain. If it's more creative, you 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:26.160 might look to the left. And then then you're gonna 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.080 use these later on to see if your suspect is 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:31.400