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Speaker 1: M Hey, everybody, it's Josh and for this week's s

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Speaker 1: Y s k Seles, I've chosen how police interrogation works

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Speaker 1: from back in two thousand and fourteen. It's a really

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Speaker 1: fascinating look into how the cops get people to admit

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Speaker 1: that they did the worst thing they ever did in

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Speaker 1: their entire life, and some people who didn't do anything

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Speaker 1: at all to admit that they did something. If you

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Speaker 1: thought that was confusing, just wait till you hear this episode.

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Speaker 1: But it is pretty mind blowing, So buckle up. I

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Speaker 1: hope you enjoy and as much as anything, I hope

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Speaker 1: it really opens your eyes. Welcome to Stuff you should know,

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Speaker 1: A production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant,

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Speaker 1: uh and Noel. I guess producer nol is over there,

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Speaker 1: which makes this stuff you should know. Jerry's on the beach.

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Speaker 1: Good for her. Yeah, and I'm Jelly. Yeah. It'd be

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Speaker 1: nice to be on the beach right now. Sure would

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Speaker 1: podcasting on the beach. Yeah, there's a beach person for sure.

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Speaker 1: In uh is she okay? She was flip pops like

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Speaker 1: in the dead of winter. Yeah, that's true. The beach

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Speaker 1: person which got nice feet up. Can I say that

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Speaker 1: I acquired for saying that. I don't think so. If

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Speaker 1: you said it, like alone in a room or something

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Speaker 1: she didn't feel like she could leave, you'd probably get

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Speaker 1: fired for that. But yeah, saying it on the podcast

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Speaker 1: to everybody's probably in the clear. Okay, we'll find out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she edits these so she'll say thanks Juckers.

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Speaker 1: You so Chuck. Have you ever been interrogated by the police. No,

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Speaker 1: that's good. No, it's a good way to be. I

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Speaker 1: was shaking down on the street once, but they didn't

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Speaker 1: ask us any questions. Stopping frisk Yeah, in New York.

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Speaker 1: In Athens, m just walk into the car after being out,

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Speaker 1: threw us all against the wall. Fristus been left. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it was a real cop. Yeah, there were cops. Man.

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Speaker 1: I was like, what's going on? Huh? I don't even know.

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Speaker 1: I still don't know what happened. Well, I guess they

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Speaker 1: were just stopping and frisking. A little known fact, Athens,

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Speaker 1: George is the real home of stopping frisk Well, five

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Speaker 1: minutes after it happened, we didn't care. You know, these

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Speaker 1: are college days. Yeah. Now though you must be burning

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Speaker 1: with a sense of injustice over the whole thing. Well,

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Speaker 1: I ask you if you've ever been interrogated by the police,

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Speaker 1: because we're about to talk about police interrogation, so it

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Speaker 1: seems appropriate. And before we get started, I have some

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Speaker 1: side reading that I think my interest some people. Um

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Speaker 1: there is a New Yorker article called the Interview. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's one called Joe Arity was the Happiest Man on

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Speaker 1: Death Row. It's in Westward. Uh, there's something called Brooklyn's

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Speaker 1: Baddest which was in g Q. And then lastly, looking

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Speaker 1: left or right doesn't indicate your lying in Smithsonian. So

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Speaker 1: all those articles are awesome, and they all have something

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Speaker 1: to do with this police interrogation, which is it turns

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Speaker 1: out becoming an increasingly controversial subject. Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: this probably brings our police suite to a close or

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Speaker 1: close to it, don't you think? I think so every

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Speaker 1: time I know, and I didn't even know this existed,

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Speaker 1: and then I saw it and it turned out to

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Speaker 1: be one of the more interesting ones, I think. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's kind of falls into this um law enforcement category,

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Speaker 1: into the subcategory of are largely debunked armchair psychological or

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Speaker 1: armchair psychology techniques like polygraph Yeah, we did that, Fingerprints,

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Speaker 1: we did that, truth serum we did that. Yeah. Like,

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Speaker 1: there's all these episodes that we've done out there about

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Speaker 1: just law enforcement techniques. We're doing them. We were like,

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Speaker 1: oh wow, this is this should not be the way

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Speaker 1: it is. And apparently police interrogations similar. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: bit of a shakedown. So let's talk about this. Like

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Speaker 1: in in the United States, there is um a long

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Speaker 1: and storied history of rather intense interrogation and I think

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Speaker 1: you know this, this comes before the United States too.

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Speaker 1: We did a medieval torture episode as well. There are

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Speaker 1: plenty of interrogations going on. We did the Spanish Inquisition

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Speaker 1: that was pre United States. Yeah, I would I would

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Speaker 1: say that falls into the banner though, of our police

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Speaker 1: and crime interrogation. Yeah right, So, um, the United States, though,

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Speaker 1: has carried on the torch of basically beating suspects up

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Speaker 1: to get confessions. This is where the term the third

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Speaker 1: degree comes from. Actually, like when somebody's like, hey, why

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Speaker 1: do you give me the third degree? They may or

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Speaker 1: may not know it, but they're they're speaking about interrogation

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Speaker 1: techniques that cats use to use yeah, those third degree techniques.

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Speaker 1: A lot of were involved deprivation, like or you know

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Speaker 1: the one where they shine the bright light in your face.

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Speaker 1: That's old school. Yeah, that's an old movie trope. But

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Speaker 1: you know, no access to food and water, Um, long

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Speaker 1: periods of isolation. We might beat up a little bit,

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Speaker 1: we might threaten you. That's the third degree, right, And

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Speaker 1: then uh, starting in about the thirties, the public started

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Speaker 1: to say, I don't know if this is such a

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Speaker 1: good idea because I might end up in a police

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Speaker 1: interrogation one day, and I don't want to get beat up.

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Speaker 1: And then the I guess the straw that started to

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Speaker 1: break the camel's back came in ninety seven in the

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Speaker 1: case Brown versus Mississippi, where Brown said, Hey, your thug

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Speaker 1: cops tied me up to a tree and with me

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Speaker 1: more than once, not just with me more than once.

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Speaker 1: Strung me up in a tree to whip me more

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Speaker 1: than once has happened repeatedly, and I don't think that

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Speaker 1: the confession they got should stand. The Supreme Court said,

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Speaker 1: we agree with you. Yeah, it was He and his

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Speaker 1: two buddies were accused of murdering Uh. They were tenant farmers,

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Speaker 1: murdering their ball. Basically. Of course, they were black guys

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Speaker 1: and the boss was a white guy, so they were

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Speaker 1: pretty determined. Then well we'll see over and over. A

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Speaker 1: lot of these cases of coerced false confessions are mainly

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Speaker 1: because someone really wants to tab somebody as the criminal. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: for a lot of different reasons. There can be a

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Speaker 1: sense of injustice. There can be a genuine conviction that

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Speaker 1: this person is guilty um, and then there can be

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Speaker 1: the you know, the case clearance um percentage that a

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Speaker 1: cop needs to keep up. But there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: reasons why a cop might say you need to confess. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of them too that I've seen

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Speaker 1: documentaries on at least or because of the public, Like,

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Speaker 1: hey man, we really need to finger somebody for this,

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Speaker 1: because people are scared, and who better than this person

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Speaker 1: who might not be too smart or might but might

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Speaker 1: be kind of poor and can't afford and doesn't you know,

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Speaker 1: representation doesn't know what's going on. So let's run them up,

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Speaker 1: run them up, ring them up, sure, run them up

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Speaker 1: a flagpole, right and see if it sticks to the wall. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But despite the fact that it is not easy to

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Speaker 1: get someone to confess. Uh, they estimate between fort of

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Speaker 1: suspects do confess and that's the one thing you don't

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Speaker 1: want to do, and up still do it. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: we should say supposedly up to um eight percent of

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Speaker 1: suspects in in the United States waive their right to

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Speaker 1: silence and counsel. Yeah that's just wait, that's just agreeing

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Speaker 1: to be interrogated, right, not necessarily confessing. Yeah. So, but

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Speaker 1: you can get around the whole idea of a false

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Speaker 1: confession or of being coerced into confessing or whatever, just

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Speaker 1: by remaining silent, not being like part of that demand

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Speaker 1: your lawyer. I mean, we're gonna give you some tips, um,

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Speaker 1: not how to get away with a crime, but some

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Speaker 1: tips on if you if you are rounded up and

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Speaker 1: put in a room, there are some things you can do. Right.

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Speaker 1: This is a public service announcement with guitars. By the

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, they confessions that were involuntary. Um, they consider

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Speaker 1: it involuntary, not just if you were beaten and threatened,

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Speaker 1: but if you were all the deprivation third degree techniques

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Speaker 1: were no longer allowed, like even if you couldn't use

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Speaker 1: the bathroom, or if you've been promised something in return

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Speaker 1: for confessing, or we'll go easy on you, buddy, or

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Speaker 1: if you'd even just been threatened, that counts as coercion too,

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Speaker 1: And so in about the fifties, UM the United States said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: this kindler, kinder, gentler interrogation technique thing is is starting

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Speaker 1: to work out. Let's put a bow on the whole

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Speaker 1: thing and say that for a confession to be admissible,

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Speaker 1: the the confess or has to sign it yeah and

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Speaker 1: say yeah, I didn't I didn't do anything under coercion.

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Speaker 1: This is my own, full, free confession and here's my signature,

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Speaker 1: and UM, which helped but certainly didn't stop false confessions. Right.

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Speaker 1: So the thing is is, UM law enforcement replaced the

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Speaker 1: physical coercion with what amounts to plainly is psychological manipulation.

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Speaker 1: And it's predicated on the idea that you when you

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Speaker 1: are saying you didn't do something and you're guilty, you

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Speaker 1: are going to become stressed out. And then the that

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Speaker 1: stress is derived from anxiety over knowing you're guilty and

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Speaker 1: having to lie. Because when you're being interrogated and you're

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Speaker 1: denying that you're guilty, the cops don't just say oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: well thanks, for coming by. If they think you're guilty,

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Speaker 1: they or they want to think you're guilty, they're going

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Speaker 1: to keep pressing you. Like interrogations aren't necessarily brief things, right,

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Speaker 1: So the more they press you, the more stressed you

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Speaker 1: should get. And the more stressed you get under this

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Speaker 1: idea of um interrogation technique, the obvious, the more obvious

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Speaker 1: it is that you're guilty, which means the more they press,

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Speaker 1: So this feedback loop starts, right Yeah. I mean they're

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Speaker 1: basically relying on a few basic human things inherent to humans,

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Speaker 1: tendencies inherent to humans. Um. One is you're gonna probably

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Speaker 1: open up more to someone who is like you, uh,

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Speaker 1: to their If you start talking, it's gonna be hard

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Speaker 1: to stop. And three, if you're if you're telling the truth,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be harder to lie. Right, So they kind

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Speaker 1: of prey on that with some age old techniques like

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Speaker 1: the good cop, bad cop. Right you you uh, if

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Speaker 1: you feel like you're being persecuted, but then you're also

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Speaker 1: being rescued by somebody else, you're going to identify with

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Speaker 1: the rescuer, trust them. That's a classic move. And here's

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Speaker 1: the thing like that, a lot of this stuff, like

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Speaker 1: the Good Cop part um is predicated on this complete

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Speaker 1: and utter deception that that cop understands where you're coming

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Speaker 1: from and sympathizes with you. That cop does not sympathize

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Speaker 1: with few. That cop may understand where you come from,

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Speaker 1: but he or she probably despises that, and they are

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Speaker 1: not your friend. But the whole one of the whole

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Speaker 1: points of um of interrogation is for the cop to

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Speaker 1: pretend like they're they're right there with you, they understand

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Speaker 1: where you're coming from, they feel for you. This is

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Speaker 1: just you're jammed up and I want to help you

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Speaker 1: get out of it. Oh yeah, you see. I mean

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Speaker 1: if if all this sounds super familiar from every TV

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Speaker 1: show or movie you've ever seen, is because they it's

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Speaker 1: been written so much that it's almost like they don't

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Speaker 1: need to do their own Like writers don't even need

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Speaker 1: to do their own research into how this is differ

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Speaker 1: because it's just how it is in the movies. When

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Speaker 1: it is in the movies is how it is in

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Speaker 1: real life. When I was reading this, I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've seen that before. I've seen that technique before, Like

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Speaker 1: it made me Actually researching this article made me appreciate

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Speaker 1: that there are some TV cop show writers out there

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Speaker 1: who like really do their homework, Like The Wire, like

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Speaker 1: every it was a little more nuance. It's like law

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Speaker 1: and Order. Um, what is it? Uh? I don't watch

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Speaker 1: those the one Vincent didn't offer you. I don't know. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I can't remember what it's called criminal minds something like that.

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Speaker 1: It's not it, um, like it's a little more overt, right,

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Speaker 1: but it's all the all the factors are there. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Another one of the tried and true techniques is maximization.

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Speaker 1: That's when they try to scare you. Um, if you've

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Speaker 1: ever heard like, oh you're you're pretty Josh, they're gonna

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Speaker 1: love you in prisoner. I hear that almost every day.

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Speaker 1: That is a classic maximization, or just you know, they're

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Speaker 1: going to throw the book at you for what you've done.

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Speaker 1: You're unless you you know, start playing along, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: get the max exactly. Um. They may also go the

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Speaker 1: exact opposite route, which is minimization, which is to create

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Speaker 1: the idea that society will will commiserate with you because

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Speaker 1: anybody in your position would have done the same thing.

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Speaker 1: You know, like that that little lady was ask him

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Speaker 1: for her person to be taken. You know, in this

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Speaker 1: day and age, in this economy, that kind of thing. Um,

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Speaker 1: polygraph was used for a while, and they still use that,

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Speaker 1: but most times, um, if you listen to our show

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Speaker 1: on polygraphs, they're not admissible in court. So a man

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Speaker 1: named John Reid, he was a polygraph analyst, said, you

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Speaker 1: know what, there's a lot of things that happen during

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Speaker 1: a polygraph exam that we can use without the machine,

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Speaker 1: just to root out the truth or lies. Yeah. Basically,

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Speaker 1: John Reid said, Hey, I've noticed through all of my

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Speaker 1: experience all of these things that a person who is

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Speaker 1: guilty or who confesses at least goes through. And here

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Speaker 1: are some ways to like really make this more efficient,

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Speaker 1: to make them react more strongly, to get them to

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Speaker 1: confess faster, more forcefully. And he came up with the

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Speaker 1: order called the Read Technique nine steps of the Read Technique,

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Speaker 1: trademark of Johnny Reidon Associates. Yeah, really, because Johnny Reidon

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Speaker 1: Associates is like this business that's still very much around. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I need to say that, but

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Speaker 1: it is their technique. Yeah, And they train the CIA,

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Speaker 1: the FBI, the local law enforcement there, like the in

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Speaker 1: the United States, the red technique is the gold standard

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Speaker 1: for police interrogation. The problem is it is also being

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Speaker 1: increasingly proven to be based on basically armchair psychology and

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Speaker 1: not science. It's say, it's going through the same thing

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Speaker 1: right now that like a lot of the forensic sciences

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Speaker 1: are going through. There's like based on intuition that doesn't

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Speaker 1: really hold up to scrutiny. And I should say the

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Speaker 1: red technique has not been across the board debunked, and

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Speaker 1: it makes sense in a lot of ways, but there

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Speaker 1: are studies out there that have said, like this doesn't

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Speaker 1: really this doesn't really hold up. Yeah, he defends it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he says, it's very sound technique, but false confession comes

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Speaker 1: from improper use in bad police work. Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: not it's not necessarily like the read people are treated

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Speaker 1: like they're you know, they're out to get anybody and everybody.

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Speaker 1: The Red technique is criticized because the whole foundation that

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Speaker 1: it's built on is the presumption of guilt, and it

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Speaker 1: has been shown to prove or produce false um confessions.

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Speaker 1: That's right, all right, If you sit down in a

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Speaker 1: in a room to get interrogated by the cops. One

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Speaker 1: thing that they're probably going to start doing is lying

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Speaker 1: to you and saying we have evidence that they may

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Speaker 1: not have. We have witnesses that put you at the

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Speaker 1: scene that don't exist. Basically, with a few exceptions, cops

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Speaker 1: can lie and say whatever they want in there. And

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Speaker 1: that is going to make someone nervous. Even though you

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Speaker 1: were you know, surgical gloves when you broke into that house,

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Speaker 1: if they say your fingers are all over the place,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna start second guessing yourself and get nervous. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And even if like you weren't in that house ever,

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Speaker 1: and you know that you weren't in that house, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna start to wonder if maybe you suffer from blackouts

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Speaker 1: and do horrible things like this cop is saying, Wow,

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Speaker 1: you're blacked out. Um, And yeah, the courts of upheld

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Speaker 1: the cops right to deceive. Uh. And I've read about

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Speaker 1: a study that found that of six and thirty detectives

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Speaker 1: in the U. S. And Canada that were pulled say

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Speaker 1: they use false evidence ploys where they're saying you have

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Speaker 1: surprised it is not a hundred yeah, you would guess,

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Speaker 1: I mean maybe the other eight percent We're just like

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Speaker 1: they didn't even look at what they were saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, they you can and they do say we

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Speaker 1: have your fingerprints, we have a witness, we have d

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Speaker 1: n A. They can completely lie about what they have

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Speaker 1: and that they have it on you to get you

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Speaker 1: to confess. It doesn't matter. You can't say, well that

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Speaker 1: cops said he had evidence doesn't matter. And the whole

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Speaker 1: legal basis for this idea for the cops to be

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Speaker 1: letting the cops deceive is this uh longstanding notion that

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Speaker 1: no innocent person would ever sign a confession even if

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Speaker 1: they were lied to about physical evidence of their guilt

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Speaker 1: being at the scene of the crime, because there they

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Speaker 1: know they're not guilty. The problem is that long standing

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Speaker 1: idea is coming under more and more scrutiny is being

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Speaker 1: found to be not the case. Like people, it's been

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Speaker 1: shown people will when lied to in situations like that,

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Speaker 1: they will infest the things that they did not do.

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Speaker 1: I know it seems crazy for people like you and me, um,

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Speaker 1: because I know I would never do that, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not mentally challenged or I'm not poor, and I

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Speaker 1: haven't you know, there's a lot of reasons why someone

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Speaker 1: might falsely confess. Yeah, and I think though also it's

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Speaker 1: not just necessarily like going how you are going into it. Like, Yes,

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Speaker 1: the a lot of the like mentally ill people UM

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Speaker 1: make up a decent amount of UM false confessions. Same

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Speaker 1: with UM, mentally handicapped, cognitively impaired people, UM, people of

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Speaker 1: low socioeconomic status. There are a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of factors that set you up to be more likely

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Speaker 1: to have a false or give a false confession. Knowing

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Speaker 1: your rights. But if you took if we took you

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Speaker 1: and ran you through a long enough UM interrogation with

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Speaker 1: people who knew what they were doing, they who knows

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Speaker 1: what you would sign, I'd be all right, we'll see

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Speaker 1: because I am stand this all. I know my rights.

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Speaker 1: I have a very strong mind. Probably say I want

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Speaker 1: a lawyer. Well yeah, I just ended all. And then

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Speaker 1: I'd be like, m, I don't know any lawyers. Do

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Speaker 1: you know a lawyer? I have an entertainment attorney. Does

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Speaker 1: that count? Um, they know lawyers? Yeah, exactly. This is

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Speaker 1: the whole network. So UM, once they bring you in

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Speaker 1: the room, the room itself uh. And this is all

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Speaker 1: from Read's manual. He wrote a manual nineteen sixty two

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Speaker 1: with a Northwestern law professor named fred Inboo called Criminal

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Speaker 1: Interrogation and Confessions. I imagine every writer in Hollywood has

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Speaker 1: a copy of that on their shelf. Um. But the

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Speaker 1: room that you see on TV, that's what there they suggest,

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Speaker 1: you know, nothing on the walls, a very plain desk,

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Speaker 1: a very uncomfortable chair on one side, two chairs on

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Speaker 1: the other for the detectives. UM, that one way mirror

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Speaker 1: that's gonna serve a purpose of letting people spy on

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Speaker 1: you and just to make you nervous even if there's

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Speaker 1: no one on the other side, and put you out

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Speaker 1: of reach from this one. I didn't really uh, I

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Speaker 1: had never really noticed. But out of reachs from just

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Speaker 1: light switches and maybe the the a c uh, what

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Speaker 1: do you call those thermostatic thermostatic just to make you

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Speaker 1: feel powerless. It's all a mind game to make you

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Speaker 1: feel helpless. So far seems pretty intuitive, pretty logical, Like

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Speaker 1: if you can't flip the lights on and off, it's

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Speaker 1: not something I would think that I would want to

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Speaker 1: do right then, but maybe knowing seeing that it was

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Speaker 1: that far away, yeah, woid just give me this reinforced

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Speaker 1: the idea that, Like, I couldn't even if I wanted to,

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Speaker 1: because it's all the way over there. That's probably small

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Speaker 1: detective in between me and that, like exactly, but it

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Speaker 1: makes sense. But I point that out because that's that's

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Speaker 1: the read technique. Stuff like that, keep the light switches

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Speaker 1: away from the criminal because it'll make him feel helpless,

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Speaker 1: right does It sounds a little hinky, but it it

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Speaker 1: makes sense in a way. That is the read technique encapsulating.

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Speaker 1: So let's continue, Chuck, So that was that's just the room. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that they suggest there there if you follow the re

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Speaker 1: technique to a t, and this is one of the

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Speaker 1: saving graces of it. Um, you're supposed to do what's

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Speaker 1: an initial interview, And if you're the detective and you

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Speaker 1: go into in an initial interview of an interrogation, you

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Speaker 1: are the re technique tasks you with going in without

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Speaker 1: a presumption of guilt. Yet that's the point of the

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Speaker 1: initial interview, is you're supposed to be sizing your guy

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Speaker 1: up and determining for yourself as a seasoned investigator, whether

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Speaker 1: you think initially they're guilty or innocent. I'm sure that

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Speaker 1: happens some Yeah, there's another study that found that it's

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Speaker 1: often skipped as well. Um, and that's they just start

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Speaker 1: like hammering right away. Well, yeah, you're throwing out the

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Speaker 1: the the potential for this, um, this person to be

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Speaker 1: treated as possibly innocent. You're not sizing up. You're going

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Speaker 1: in assuming they're guilty. So but if you if you

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Speaker 1: do go through that initial interview, the other point of

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Speaker 1: it is that you're supposed to be creating a bay line. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which I think is that showed up in the polygraph

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Speaker 1: one too, Yeah, which isn't surprising because John Reid was

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Speaker 1: a polygraph expert for a while too. Yeah, and you've

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Speaker 1: been gratiated yourself, you know, in the first few minutes

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Speaker 1: by this point, like, uh, if if you're if you're

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Speaker 1: in Philadelphia and your suspect has on like a Phillies cap,

378
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Speaker 1: you might talk about the game last night, right exactly.

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Speaker 1: And that that throws back to um, the suspect being

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Speaker 1: more likely. Can you trust someone that shares their same

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Speaker 1: views that they feel they can identify with, So the

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Speaker 1: detective will do whatever they can to make it seem like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're a Catholic, I'm a Catholic too, that kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And so once you've got a little

385
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Speaker 1: bit of rapport going on, is when you're gonna set

386
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Speaker 1: your baseline. And I thought this is pretty interesting. You don't,

387
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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna start looking for this on cop shows

388
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Speaker 1: to see if they don't overtly talk about it, if

389
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Speaker 1: they're just how good they are with their you know, uh,

390
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Speaker 1: with their acting, because if they're looking at the eyes, um,

391
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Speaker 1: then they're going to be accurate, because that's one of

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Speaker 1: the way is supposedly you can create a baseline. Um,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna ask some some questions that require memory recall,

394
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Speaker 1: and you're gonna ask other questions that require more creativity,

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna look at where their eyes go. Supposedly,

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Speaker 1: if your eyes moved to the right, that is just recall,

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Speaker 1: because you're I guess looking in the direction of your

398
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Speaker 1: memory center of your brain. If it's more creative, you

399
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Speaker 1: might look to the left. And then then you're gonna

400
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Speaker 1: use these later on to see if your suspect is

401
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 1: creatively making up a lie, they might look to the left,

402
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 1: or if they're just truthfully recalling something, they might look

403
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Speaker 1: to the right. Is that bunk? Yes, all right, it's

404
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Speaker 1: very dangerous too, because they that is incredibly widespread. It's

405
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Speaker 1: a popular misconception. If you ask anybody if you move

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Speaker 1: your eyes a certain way, does it indicate your lying?

407
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Speaker 1: Most people are gonna say yes, Yeah, it totally does.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember if it's right or left, but if

409
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Speaker 1: you look a certain way, it means you're lying. So

410
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Speaker 1: that's a longstanding thing that's based actually on a self

411
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Speaker 1: help philosophy from the seventies, has nothing to do with science.

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Speaker 1: And actually Richard Wiseman, who we Um incorrectly said, did

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Speaker 1: some research that proved that ghosts exist in our ghost episode. Yeah,

414
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Speaker 1: that guy, he's done someones to debunk this. He did

415
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Speaker 1: a couple of studies and in one of the studies

416
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Speaker 1: he found um. He he used footage of people who

417
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Speaker 1: were holding press conferences searching for lost relatives. But the

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Speaker 1: person pleaing for their relatives return was later convicted of

419
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Speaker 1: like killing or kidnapping their their relatives, so they were

420
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Speaker 1: obviously lying. They were committing a huge lie in front

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Speaker 1: of the public. And he found that they were just

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Speaker 1: as likely to look to the left or the right.

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Speaker 1: There was no correlation whatsoever. Yeah, I'm sure there are

424
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: facial cues of pantomimes if you're Christopher Walkin. But um,

425
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: it all depends on the person to write, like, you

426
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 1: could be really good at lying or really good at

427
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 1: throwing people off with facial cues. Yeah, or the idea

428
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: that you your eyes move in a certain direction at

429
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 1: all because you're coming up with a lie or because

430
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: you're remembering something might not It doesn't mean anything necessarily. Yeah.

431
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: We also did one of micro expressions. This is a

432
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 1: culmination of a lot of shows. I'm realized. Yeah, it

433
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: really is so um that was another one. You you've

434
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: got the baseline set. You're watching the eyes even though

435
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 1: you really shouldn't be. Um, But for the most part,

436
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: you're you're seeing what your suspect appears like when they're

437
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: stressed or I'm sorry, when they're relaxed. And and the

438
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 1: reason you're creating this baseline of what they act like

439
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: when they relaxed is because if you ask them questions

440
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: and they answer them and appear relaxed, then supposedly they're

441
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: telling the truth. Again, this is predicated on some faulty

442
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: ideas because here's the problem. Anxiety is not necessarily linked

443
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: to lying. Like, yes, you may appear anxious if you're lying,

444
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that if you're anxious, you're lying, right,

445
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I would do that.

446
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: I would do the chuck chuck technique would be the

447
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: fast thing, like I would set him up. I'll calm

448
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: and be like, Hey, did you watch a game last night? Yeah?

449
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: How cool? Why did you kill it? Old lady? Yeah?

450
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: You like the Phillies. Yeah, it was a pretty good game.

451
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,479
Speaker 1: How do you think they're gonna go far? Yeah? Did

452
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: you kill your wife? And boom? That was pretty good?

453
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: You almost said yes, yeah, really and you didn't kill

454
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: your wife? No? I mean, geez, that was thrilling. The

455
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: chuck technique. I I like the Colombo. What's that? Oh? Well,

456
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: you're just like that's that's great. I'm glad you like

457
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: the Phillies. I just want to thank you for coming by.

458
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: That's it was good to meet you. Write if we

459
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: if we need anything, can we call you? And they're like, yeah,

460
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: they're so relieved that they get to lead, and then you, oh,

461
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but one more thing. Why did you kill

462
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: your wife? That Colombo did? Yeah, he was a little

463
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: better at it than I was. He would say, there's

464
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: there's just there's one of the things just not making

465
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: sense to me. If you think of your wife, why

466
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: were you found standing over with the knife? Yeah, so

467
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: that's how Colombo would catch him off guard, like really

468
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,959
Speaker 1: get them to let their guard down. Yeah. I like that.

469
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: So you said, he I know what Colombo was. I

470
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: was about to say he went on and killed his wife.

471
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: But that was Robert Blake. Yeah, that was Barretta. What

472
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: was his technique? I don't know. I never watched Barretta

473
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: check your gun with the matre d and then isn't

474
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: that what he did? Know? What did you do? I

475
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: think he left his gun with the matre d soup,

476
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: that's what he said he did, Like, you know, I'm

477
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: here table for two, here's my coat and here's my gun. Yeah,

478
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: well you hang onto that for me, will you be

479
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: my alibi? Um? I think we're at the read technique now, right,

480
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: we are. So the the other stuff was from the

481
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: book that's based on the read technique criminal interrogation and confessions.

482
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: But now we are at the actual read technique, the

483
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: nine point technique that is designed to maximize um, just come,

484
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: which leads to more frequent confessions. Yeah, and it's actually

485
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: it's illegal and a lot of European countries for children, um,

486
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: which which it should be, because that's another risk factor

487
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: going in. They can produce false confessions as age of course,

488
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: and we'll get to some of those later. Those are

489
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: kind of uh maddening when you read about like a

490
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: fourteen year old it's interrogated without their parents for like

491
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: a full day, but it happens. So step number one

492
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: and the re technique is the confrontation. Uh. And this

493
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: is after the initial interview you have. You're going to

494
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: present the facts of the case. You're gonna tell them

495
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: about the evidence, um, what they're faced with, the all

496
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: the evidence against them, even if you're making some of

497
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: it up. You might want to invade their personal space

498
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: at this time if you're Matthew McConaughey, uh. And then

499
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: you start looking for things like fidgety, uh, suspect they

500
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: look in their lips, are they like mustle with their hair? Um.

501
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: And then if you're a skater, you might say, all right,

502
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: I've got this guy just where I want him. That

503
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: guy ran his fingers through his hair. He's guilty, exactly.

504
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:08,959
Speaker 1: And that's kind of part of the part of The

505
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: issue that a lot of critics of the re technique

506
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: bring up um is that basically, if you stripped non

507
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: verbal stuff out, then you've got some sound stuff there. Right.

508
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: The biggest problem is when you're trying to read nonverbal

509
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: cues because there it's not rooted in science, rooted in

510
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: armchair psychology and pop science totally. So the idea that

511
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: somebody's fidgeting meanings they're guilty and they're lying. Not necessarily

512
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: they could be fidgeting because any human being would be

513
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: really uncomfortable when placed in that situation and interrogated by

514
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: cops who are experts at it. Right. Uh So, step

515
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: number two is theme development, and you're gonna be a

516
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: little more soothing here with a softer voice. And this

517
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: is when you come up with some some theories and

518
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: a story maybe of why they committed this crime. Like

519
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: you know, you just couldn't go on any longer now

520
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: when your best friend at sex with your wife. You

521
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: just couldn't live with that, could you. And if the

522
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: suspect latches onto that in some verbal or nonverbal ways

523
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: and they'll continue they don't, then they'll just create another theme. Yeah,

524
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: and the the detective will basically just kind of while

525
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: they're creating the story for the for the suspect to

526
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: latch onto there also actively listening to the suspect to

527
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: see if the suspect will latch onto it in any way,

528
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: shape or form, and if they don't, they try another one.

529
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: If they do, then they start to kind of beef

530
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: that one up and at least alternatives, which actually comes later,

531
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: but in the meantime. One of the main techniques of

532
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: the read technique is stopping denials. But I didn't do it, Josh, listen,

533
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: I'm telling you I was. But imagine my finger on

534
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: Chuck's lips right now. That's why you would never do that.

535
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: Now you stop denials, does it creates a sense of hopelessness,

536
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: like the like, don't you feel hopeless with my fingers

537
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: on your lips? So hopeless you have no idea? Uh?

538
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: It makes you feel hopeless that you don't even have

539
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: the opportunity to to reason with this cop. You can't

540
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: defend yourself, not at all, so you have a sense

541
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: of hopelessness. Plus, the other upside if you're an interrogator

542
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: is that you're keeping the person from talking, meaning they

543
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: also can't ask for counsel. Then I don't see why

544
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: people don't just do that the first thing, over and

545
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: over say I need a lawyer, I need a lawyer,

546
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: I need a lawyer. I read this article in I

547
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: think this stranger aren't the oddest Seattle. I don't know.

548
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: It wasn't a great article. It was kind of um,

549
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: it was just kind of misleading, like the the author

550
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: really wanted you to to sympathize with the guy who

551
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: was guilty and didn't really revealed that he really was

552
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: pretty guilty towards the end. But it had this this

553
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: really great exploit nation for why people don't ask for

554
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: a lawyer in this article. Yes, and I've seen it before,

555
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: but this article really got the point across that this

556
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: guy was, like I mean, he'd done some stuff before,

557
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: like I think like he um he was he dabbled

558
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: in drugs and like ran an illegal like poker game

559
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: and stuff like that like mouthfeasance. Yeah, and he so

560
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: enough so that he was like he knew he was

561
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: technically guilty in the eyes of the law, but not

562
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: for this thing that they wanted him on. Um, so

563
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: he was he had that guilt to begin with, and

564
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: then these cops saying like, you're gonna really look guilty

565
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: if you if you ask for a lawyer. That's one.

566
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: And then the other aspect was if you lawyer up,

567
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: we can't help you. One. If you talk to us,

568
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: that's the only way we can help you get out

569
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: of this jam. We want to help get jam like

570
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: we we know we might we would have done the

571
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: same thing you did. Yeah, but the cops never want

572
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: to get you out of a jam. No, that's not

573
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: what they're trying to do. And so what they were

574
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: saying was like if you clam up this, like, who

575
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: knows what's going to happen to you. They were doing

576
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: all sorts of really effective psychological manipulation. And the guy

577
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: they were talking to was a lawyer's son. Yeah, and

578
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: this guy who like forty years old, a lawyer's son,

579
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: and so he'd known his whole life to ask for

580
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: a lawyer. And even this guy didn't immediately ask for

581
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: a lawyer because these cops got him. You know, I

582
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't either. Actually, if I was if I was

583
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: arrested today after work and obviously completely innocent of anything,

584
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,239
Speaker 1: would that be mind blowing if that happened and I

585
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: was completely innocent. I would I would at first, my

586
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: first instinct would probably be like, I don't need a

587
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: lawyer and I didn't do anything, Yeah, like why why

588
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,479
Speaker 1: occurred that expense? Well, I think that's another aspect of

589
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: the initial um, initial consultation. That an initial discussion where

590
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it's all friendly, we're talking about the Phillies.

591
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: Why would you need a lawyer for that? All right,

592
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: I retract my statement. I get it now, but you

593
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: should stick to your original statement no matter what. Like,

594
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: you have a right to counsel and there's no reason

595
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: you should not invoke it. Your your punishment is not

596
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: going to be worse for asking for a lawyer. Yeah,

597
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: you should open up. You sound like one of those

598
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 1: legal commercials called Josh Clark. That reminds me we should

599
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: do and we should mention the A C l U

600
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: episode that was a pretty good in too. Yeah, man,

601
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: this thing is just so many tangential podcasts. So the

602
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 1: stopping denials, that's a big part of the read technique.

603
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 1: And then um, there's something that's similar that John Reid noticed,

604
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: but it is a little nuance. There's a difference, uh,

605
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: and that's objections to to to read denials were different

606
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: than objections, and objections were something to be treated differently

607
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: as a result. Yeah, an objection. The example they gave

608
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: here was like, I would never rape somebody because my

609
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: sister was raped and that it destroyed our family, So

610
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: of course I wouldn't do something like that, right. So

611
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: to a cop, that's not a denial. A denial is

612
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: like I didn't do that. I didn't do that that,

613
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: that's not me. You got the wrong guy. Those are denials,

614
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: and the cops would try to stop you from completing

615
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 1: those sentences. That objection you just said is a denial,

616
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: but it's encapsulated with um, yeah, a justification something to it.

617
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 1: Do you remember when you used to take multiple choice

618
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: tests in high school? They always said that if you

619
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: don't know the answer, usually the one with the most verbiage,

620
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: the one with the most words is the right one.

621
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: I never heard that it's true that works out. It's

622
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: not good at taking tests either. Well, no, wonder, we

623
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: need to get in the way back machine. You can

624
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: go take some more multiple test tests. Knowing that now,

625
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: But the the I think that's kind of the same

626
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: premise for an objection. It's like, it's not just a denial.

627
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 1: It's there's more to it, and the fact that somebody

628
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: put that much more thought into it means that there's

629
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: something to that. So a cop will take that and

630
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: cultivate it and try to turn the at around and

631
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 1: they would say, we, I know you love your sister,

632
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: and you know you you stood by her while she

633
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: was raped, So of course this wouldn't be like a

634
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: recurring thing. This is just a one time thing that

635
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: you did and you were out of your head or whatever,

636
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: because you care about your sisters, so you would never

637
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: do this all the time or something. And so all

638
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're you're kind of like you're giving

639
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: the suspect like a something to latch onto, something for

640
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: them to to basically re enter society to an extent,

641
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: because at this moment, especially if they're guilty, they are

642
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: totally on the ounce with society, and the sole representative

643
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: of society, and who's speaking with them right now is

644
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,479
Speaker 1: the cop that's interrogating them, and everybody wants to be included. Yeah,

645
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: and if you don't, then your a sociopath and they're

646
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,439
Speaker 1: gonna get you anyway. They're well, yeah, but they're gonna

647
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 1: have a hard time through interrogation. So number five is

648
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: getting the spects attention. Is I don't know these the

649
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: real titles or is this just the liberties of the

650
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: author of this article. I don't know what We'll call it.

651
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: Getting the suspects attention. And uh, this is when you

652
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: pretend to be the ally of the suspect um, because

653
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 1: at this point they're probably looking for a way out.

654
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: And that's when you might go, hey, man, I get it.

655
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: If I call it my best friend having sex with

656
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: my wife, I'd kill him too. Yeah, I understand where

657
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: you're coming from. And uh, maybe a little pad on

658
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: the shoulder, a little rub on, a little rub on

659
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: the back, or maybe a pad on the back and

660
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: just some reassurance, like I get to where you're coming from. Man,

661
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: it could have could happen to any of us, and

662
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: you're in big trouble at that point. Yeah, and that's

663
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: probably going on like throughout. Yeah, and the themes run

664
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: these all overlap quite a bit. But if if there's

665
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: an objection that you've noticed that you're working, you've turned

666
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: around and you're working, Yeah that objection with an extra

667
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: layer of compassion and commiseration. Yeah. Uh, and I guess

668
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: really kind of start to ensnare the suspect a lot more.

669
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: It's weird because I'm I'm repulsed by a lot of this,

670
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: but I'm also very impressed by like what I've seen

671
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: on TV. What you can tell is someone who's really

672
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 1: good at it. Oh yeah, it's an effective like an

673
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 1: art form. There's UM I believe something like eight percent

674
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: or seventies six percent of UM suspects who are interrogated

675
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: in this manner when you take out people who UM

676
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: invoke their miranda rights, uh confess like it has an

677
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 1: enormous confession, right, And there's a lot of people who

678
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: the vast majority the study I saw or the number

679
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: I saw, six of those confessions are from guilty people,

680
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: but something like point zero four percent are false confessions.

681
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: The problem is there's still such thing as false confessions.

682
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: There's no safeguards. It's just it just so happens that,

683
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: like the false confessions are in that small of an amount. Yeah,

684
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: and that percentage isn't high. But if you think about

685
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: how many people are interrogated, that's like several hundred per

686
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: year in the US, up to several hundred per year.

687
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 1: That's a lot of people. Yeah, and it's not like

688
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: that that those people just it gets found out at

689
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: trial or somewhere down the road that they're innocent. Like,

690
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: those people may spend the rest of their lives in jail.

691
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: At the worst case, they may be executed, which has

692
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 1: probably happened in the history of the US, although it

693
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: hasn't been um irrefutably proven yet. Yeah, and you can

694
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 1: listen to how the Innocence Project works. From June, we

695
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 1: interviewed paula Is on, Oh, yeah, that's right. I wish

696
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: I'd known a lot more about the Innocence Project back

697
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: when we did that episode, Like I kind of got

698
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: it and understood it. But just over the last few years, Um,

699
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: I've kind of I understand it even more. Yeah, I

700
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: wish I would have known better than It's still a

701
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: good episode. We talked to Paul paul Is on Yeah,

702
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 1: she's a real pro. Yeah, no, it's not, is it? Okay,

703
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: that's how rumors get made. Well, I just liked her

704
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: like more after you said that. Oh yeah, yeah, I

705
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: love Steve's on. Um, all right, and back to the

706
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: red technique. At this point, number six, the suspect might

707
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 1: lose resolve and uh, This seemed really obvious to me.

708
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: If the suspect is has his shoulders hunched, or has

709
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: got his head in his hands, or is crying, then

710
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: you've got them just where you want them as an interrogator, right,

711
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: you were going to get your confession, whether it's a

712
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: false confession or not. That's not guaranteed by these outward signs. Again,

713
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: if you strip away the non verbal stuff from the

714
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 1: red technique, it's it's pretty pretty good stuff. And apparently

715
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: this is where you really want to regain their attention.

716
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 1: Like if they start crying, like forced them to look

717
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: you in the eye. Uh, because I guess that works.

718
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: That increases the stress level. Um. So remember we talked

719
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: about that theme development. It's like here, here's what happened,

720
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: you know, and they object to that, and then you

721
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 1: take that objection, you turn it around, and they start

722
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: to latch onto that theme couched in that objection. You

723
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: take that next, and as you're developing it, it becomes

724
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: one of two or more alternatives. But basically you're taking

725
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: the theme that the person latched onto and you're making

726
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: that the minimal um example. It's almost like a good cop,

727
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: bad cop version of reasons why you did it exactly.

728
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: So it's it's um you you you shot that lady

729
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: in the back because she was a horrible person. Nobody

730
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: is going to think that you did it because you

731
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: just wanted the entrance money, exactly, that anybody in your

732
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 1: position would have done this. And everyone's gonna understand this

733
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: is why you not. This horrible reason, this reason, this

734
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: reason society can live with. Maybe you'll go to jail

735
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: for a year two, who knows, But when you come out,

736
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: everybody's gonna say, Hey, that Bernie guy is okay. I

737
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: would have shot that old lady in the back too.

738
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: Did you see that movie? Yeah, that's good. Uh, it's not. Hey,

739
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: that Bernie guy needs to burn in hell for the

740
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 1: rest of his life because it killed some poor old

741
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: lady for insurance money. You know. So with the cops

742
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: sitting there saying, here's what we're saying, you're agreeing to.

743
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: Here's this horrible interpretation that I can't control. But this

744
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: I've created and sculpted with your help. So let's throw

745
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: this horrible, big thing away and this thing that doesn't

746
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: seem nearly as bad is what the press will hear.

747
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: They will start to put it on paper. Yeah. But

748
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: here's what you're not thinking about what you're doing is

749
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 1: it's the same in both cases. If you're confessing to

750
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: a murderer and you are just at a point to

751
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: where you're you think, man, that sounds way better in

752
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: a NewSpace paper and this other thing. And also it's

753
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: coming out of the mouth of this detective that is

754
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: um that is appearing to commiserate with you, that has

755
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: empathized with you, that maybe told you on the side

756
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: like hey, I hated that old lady too, and I'm

757
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: glad you did it. The cop can totally say that,

758
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: and and to win the trust of the suspect. So

759
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: all of these factors combine all of a sudden, you

760
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: have a story, you have a narrative, you're working out

761
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: with the cops. You may not even realize that that's

762
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: what's going on. And then the cops going to say,

763
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: I have a piece of paper and a pen here,

764
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: and I want you to write down what we just

765
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: talked about. I want you to write down your confession. Yeah, well,

766
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,919
Speaker 1: they're gonna bring someone else in there first. Well, there's

767
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: probably already someone else in there. They may bring a

768
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: third a new person in there. Uh, to try and

769
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 1: force them to retell their story, which they probably won't

770
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: want to do. Uh. And that's when you can introduce like, hey,

771
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: you don't want to tell the story again to this

772
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: new detective. I know you're tired here to take the

773
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 1: spend exactly, don't stab me with it. By this time,

774
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: the person will likely want to do just about anything

775
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: to get out of that room and from writing and

776
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 1: signing this this confession. There's salvation on the other end.

777
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 1: There's a light at the end of the tunnel, even

778
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: if it's possibly jail. Yeah, they can get out of

779
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 1: this room. They can get out of this horrible interrogation. Yeah.

780
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: They may promise like a hot meal, like something as

781
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: simple as that can can get someone to sign a

782
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: confession at the end of a long, long day. So

783
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: you've got the written confession, you haven't signed, Uh. They

784
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: probably have to sign an additional waiver that says I

785
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: didn't write this under coercion or else. They'll include that

786
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: in the confession and then you have basically what amounts

787
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: to a slam dunk conviction in court. Yep. And that

788
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: is the read technique. Uh. And we're gonna talk about

789
00:44:54,000 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: some real cases of interrogation right after this break. Alright, Chuck.

790
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: So that's the red technique. You got your purpose, super effective, um,

791
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: and it has been used in plenty of cases. Like

792
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: we said, the number that I saw was like point

793
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: zero per point zero four of confessions or false confessions, UM,

794
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: which is extraordinarily small, which means that a lot of

795
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:45,439
Speaker 1: truly bad guys get caught through the red the red technique, right. Um.

796
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: And there's this one in this article on how stuff works, um,

797
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: how police interrogation works. And it's with a woman named

798
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: Nicole Michelle Frederick. It's between her and a detective named

799
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: Victor Lauria, and it takes place in Detroit in September

800
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: of two thousand three. And Um, Nicole Michelle Frederick was

801
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: the step mom to a two year old daughter, and

802
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 1: the two year old daughter had shown up in the hospital,

803
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: I believe, unresponsive with bruises all over her body had

804
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: clearly been physically abused. And the step mom was saying,

805
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: she falls down a lot, like I don't think anybody

806
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 1: heard her, Like she just gets bruised like that, And uh,

807
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: it certainly wasn't me, but not only was it not me,

808
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: I don't think it was anybody. The little girl just

809
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: falls down, she does it to herself. And with that,

810
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: Detective Lauria took her to be blaming the victim that

811
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: she was trying to go free. By blaming this little

812
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: girl for being clumsy, lumsy and difficult, yes, which a

813
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 1: detective can then latch onto is reprehensible as that sounds, uh,

814
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: by trying to get some empathy, going like, hey, I

815
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: get it, you know, like this is a tough baby, yes,

816
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: and it's I'm sure it's trying, and it's very difficult.

817
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, uh, Detective Lauria has has

818
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 1: this I guess this theme, this justification that was set

819
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: up by the suspect, and he starts to play it out.

820
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: He's saying, like this this girl, she was a difficult baby.

821
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: She's crying. You lose your head for a minute and

822
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: you get a little rough and you know it could

823
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: happen to anybody, and um uh ms. Frederick says, no,

824
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: that's not right at all. Nobody hurt this kid. I

825
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: don't understand why you don't believe me. You seem to

826
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: be not listening to me, which is from what I understand,

827
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: that's you're in the danger zone right there, and your derogation.

828
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 1: If somebody's saying, if they're pressing back their own reality

829
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 1: on the you the detective, you're not in control, right

830
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: then they are. So uh, Laurias started to look for

831
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: another theme, and it was along the same lines, but

832
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: rather than losing your head for a minute, it was

833
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: a split second. Something happen been in a flash of

834
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: a minute or flash of a second, and she perked

835
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: up a little. Yeah, she started to latch onto that one. Yeah.

836
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: So then he knew he had her, you know, in

837
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,439
Speaker 1: a pretty tough spot, and um, she started nodding her head.

838
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: He sets up the alternative and said, you know what,

839
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 1: if you don't explain this thing, every he's gonna everyone's

840
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 1: gonna just assume that you're this awful, abusive person. Um.

841
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,919
Speaker 1: I think people might understand more though, because everyone's been there.

842
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: If we paint you know, if if it was just

843
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 1: a split second thing and he lost control, people are

844
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: going to get that. So those are the alternatives. All

845
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: of a sudden, and then it came, uh, it came

846
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: out that the her daughter had had had brain damage,

847
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: it was likely not gonna die. And then all of

848
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: a sudden, the suspects started saying, oh I I they're

849
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: gonna get me for murder. Yeah. Well, he pointed out

850
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: to her, He's like, by the way, you haven't even

851
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 1: asked about the condition of your daughter. And she was like, no,

852
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: I haven't totally have. He's like, no, you really haven't.

853
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 1: And she's like, well, how is she. He's like, she's

854
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: not gonna make it, and that's when she goes, oh no, yeah,

855
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be tried for murder. And she was and

856
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 1: found guilty. Um, she she confessed, I believe right. Yeah,

857
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: she admitted to shaking shaking a baby and then said

858
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: out loud, I killed the little girl. I killed her right. So, Um,

859
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: she was convicted of killing her two year old stepdaughter.

860
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: And last I saw, I found an appeal in two

861
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: thousand five that was denied. That was the last I

862
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: saw of her after her conviction. So it does work,

863
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: and Detective Lauria followed all of these steps, um, and

864
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: got a bad guy in this case. Yeah, and so

865
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: a lot of times it goes down just like it should.

866
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: But it is super controversial, which we've talked about some

867
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 1: and you mentioned at the beginning. One of the biggest

868
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 1: problems is it's guilt presumptive. Is they go in there thinking,

869
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 1: all right, this person's the goal of the of the

870
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 1: interrogation is to get a confession, not to find out

871
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,720
Speaker 1: whether or not someone did something. In most in many cases,

872
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,240
Speaker 1: they go in there thinking this person is guilty. And

873
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,359
Speaker 1: if you're going in there thinking you're guilty, even if

874
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: you don't mean to, you're gonna start to filter out

875
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: any reasons why they might be innocent, even if they're

876
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: good reasons and valid reasons. And that ain't no good, No,

877
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: it's not. That's um. That's well, it's pretty huge flaw really,

878
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 1: even if it does result in only point zero four

879
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: percent of false confessions. Yeah, and you also mentioned that, Um,

880
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: the whole purpose of the interrogation is to make someone

881
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: stressed and uncomfortable. And then when you notice people behaving

882
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: stressed and uncomfortable, that's the presumption an indicator of guilt. Supposedly,

883
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 1: when it's like you said, would you call a feedback loop,

884
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: So you know, I want to make you stressed and uncomfortable,

885
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: you're being stressed and uncomfortable, that means you're guilty. Yeah,

886
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: it's an odd way to approach things. It's coercion UM.

887
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 1: And then there's also been a lot of people to

888
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 1: point out that a lot of these techniques are the

889
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: same thing that are used in brainwashing, which we did

890
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 1: a show on July two thousand nine, did a brainwashing

891
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:20,439
Speaker 1: show invading a personal space, not allowing the person to speak, UM,

892
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: using contrasting alternatives to have them come to uh, make

893
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: them feel like they're making a decision or that they

894
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: have a choice or some sort of power. I think

895
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: you brainwashed me in that episode two right, Yeah, we

896
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 1: did a little role play. Yeah, it was awesome. Man,

897
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: um I turned you into a prep that was five

898
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah, and then UM position and confession as

899
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: a means of escape. Oh yeah, that was like the

900
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: last step I think before resolution was to say like

901
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 1: just like denounce your family or whatever and you will

902
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: be saved or something. Right in this case, it signed

903
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,919
Speaker 1: this thing and man, you're gonna get that hot meal

904
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: and that cigarette I promised you. The thing is is

905
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: like we said, it's uh, it does produce false confessions.

906
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: And I saw somewhere that of people who have been

907
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: exonerated with DNA evidence, UM gave a false confession. So

908
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,919
Speaker 1: people go to jail for years for this kind of thing. Well,

909
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: here's a few of the more famous cases. Peter Riley

910
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three, it's an eighteen year old who

911
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: is whose mother was murdered. Um, I think no siblings

912
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 1: and no father, so like the only parent he'd ever known.

913
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: And after eight hours of interrogation by Connecticut police, he

914
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: confessed to brutally murdering her. Murdering her and uh, I

915
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 1: was convicted on manslaughter based on the confessional loan. There

916
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: was no evidence, no motive. Medical findings suggested that there

917
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: were at least two attackers, and uh, the town really

918
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: got behind him apparently, and like, so this kid didn't

919
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:54,919
Speaker 1: do this, He's not that kind of guy. And let's

920
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: have bake sales and raise money. And Arthur Miller, the

921
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 1: famous playwright, lived in the town, and he championed it

922
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: because he did a lot of work with a c

923
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 1: l U and Um. Eventually new evidence came out that

924
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 1: exonerated him, and he was set free after three years

925
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 1: in prison. Three years not too bad. That's better than

926
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: Earl Washington Jr. Who in nineteen eighty two he was

927
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: described as in please everybody, I'm using scare quotes here

928
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: He was described by psychologists as mildly retarded. He had

929
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: an i Q of sixty nine, which is a whole

930
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: other kettle of fish that mean anything anyway, But um,

931
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: he confessed to raping and murdering a nineteen year old

932
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 1: woman under interrogation. He was convicted on the confession alone, right, Yeah,

933
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 1: just on the confession. Well, a lot of these are

934
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: and spent eighteen years in prison, some of them on

935
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 1: death row and was apparently rescued from the executioner with

936
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: like nine days to go. Yeah. But at the same time, like,

937
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:55,439
Speaker 1: as a jury, what are you to do when someone

938
00:53:55,480 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: says I did this, you know, I mean hopefully don't know,

939
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 1: maybe maybe add some other evidence to no, I agree.

940
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 1: The thing is is Earl Washington's um thing. He he

941
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 1: was somebody else was caught doing it using DNA. That's

942
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: that's been a huge change to this kind of thing.

943
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: It's at least exonerated people like free and clear. But

944
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: that's that brings up another problem with false confessions. Not

945
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,240
Speaker 1: only do innocent people go to jail, guilty people stay free,

946
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: and they accumulate more victims over time, you know, like, um,

947
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: how how how many more children would that that lady

948
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,959
Speaker 1: in Detroit have abused if like she'd gotten off or something,

949
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,919
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, like the and the guy who

950
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 1: created UM the read technique actually had a false confession

951
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: and wrongful conviction under his belt, a guy. If you

952
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: read the article UM the uh the interview in The

953
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: New Yorker, the first thing he talks about is this

954
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,280
Speaker 1: guy in the fifties who was in jail for twenty

955
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: years from ordering his wife even though he didn't do it,

956
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 1: who was um interrogated by John Reid himself. Wow. Yeah,

957
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 1: So the guy who actually did do it went on

958
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: to rape pregnant women and um commit all these other

959
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 1: horrible crimes that he wouldn't have He wouldn't have done

960
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: had he been caught the first time, or had the

961
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 1: cups still been looking for him. Wow. So yeah, it's

962
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,720
Speaker 1: a huge point. I mean, like, it's not just innocent

963
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: people in prison, it's guilty people out still. Yeah, if

964
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: you really want to see uh this all firsthand, I

965
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: highly recommend the documentary from Ken burn Sarah Burns, and

966
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 1: David McMahon, The Central Park Five. And this is the

967
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: famous story in of five young African American men who

968
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 1: were set up the River for a rape in Central

969
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 1: Park and they did not do it. And uh. It's

970
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 1: a great documentary and it's just summarizes how you can

971
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 1: get a false confession very nicely and it all plays

972
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 1: out and you see these inner abuse and get really

973
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: angry and uh, but that was definitely a case of

974
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 1: UM sort of like with the Atlanta child murders, Like

975
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: people are scared to go into Central Park now and

976
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 1: we've got these five use who aren't so smart and

977
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: they're poor, and we can we think they did it

978
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: and I don't care what the evidence says. We need

979
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 1: to finger them for the crime and put them all

980
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: over the news so people will feel safe again. But

981
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 1: they were eventually exonerated thanks to DNA again um, and

982
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: they spent depending on which guy, between six years and

983
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: twelve years in prison. And really great documentary and I

984
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: think it's on Netflix. It is it is. Have you

985
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 1: seen it? Yeah? Yeah, that's a good one. UM, so

986
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: chuck this. We've basically been talking mostly about the red technique,

987
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 1: that there are alternatives. There's some law enforcement agencies have

988
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 1: lost faith in um, the red technique. Uh and in Britain,

989
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,919
Speaker 1: apparently in there's a bunch of false confessions that came

990
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 1: to light and the British government said, we need to

991
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: figure something else out. So they created a Blue Ribbon

992
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: task force and said, come up with an alternative to

993
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 1: the red technique, which ironically is a technique in the

994
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: re technique. But what they came up with was called peace,

995
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: which this is the worst acronym of all time, but

996
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: preparation and planning, engage and explain, account closure, evaluate clearly

997
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 1: spells peace. Yes, um. So they came up with it

998
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: after a couple of years and by two thousand and

999
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: one it was pretty widespread. But the Peace technique is

1000
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: predicated on the idea that you're not going after a confession.

1001
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: This technique, like you as a an investigator an interrogator,

1002
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,919
Speaker 1: you're going in to just get the whole story out

1003
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: and as much detail as possible, and you're not going

1004
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 1: after a confession. You're not accusing the person of the crime,

1005
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 1: you're being polite and you're here's another thing, and a

1006
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 1: lot of people think that this will cure false confessions

1007
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 1: almost in and of itself, videotaping the confession from beginning

1008
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,919
Speaker 1: to end. And so what the cops do is they

1009
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: interview the the suspect. They say, well, what about this,

1010
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 1: here's a discrepancy, what about this? And they're not being accusatory,

1011
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: they're just putting everything out there and letting this person

1012
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 1: explain it in front of the video tape or in

1013
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: front of the video camera, and then the tape is

1014
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: shown to a jury and the jury apparently decides whether

1015
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: the person is lying or not. Yeah, And this is

1016
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 1: all built on the what I think is a pretty

1017
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: rock solid theory that it is really hard to lie

1018
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 1: and lie and lie and keep it all straight and

1019
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: keep it all and that that congruous line that's believable

1020
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: at some point, if you keep talking and you're lying

1021
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: a bunch, you're gonna mess up. And that's what they

1022
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 1: prey on, especially if you've just spent the last day,

1023
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: hours like drinking cruddy coffee and eating a few ho

1024
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,919
Speaker 1: hoes and being asked questions by interrogators, even if they're

1025
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: being polite like yeah, you're you're gonna have a really

1026
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 1: hard time keeping up with what you've already said. Yeah,

1027
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: Like you've got to be a real skilled sociopath to

1028
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 1: lie for hours and hours and hours. Uh. And then

1029
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 1: they'll bring him again and again a week later, let's say,

1030
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: you know, let's have some more tea and let's sit

1031
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 1: down and talk. And uh, a week later, you might

1032
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 1: forget some of the things you said. And um, and

1033
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 1: the cops have the video and they're writing down all

1034
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: the details. Seems pretty solid to me. Yeah, so good

1035
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 1: on you Britain. And um, there are some people here

1036
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: in the US trying to teach it to cops here,

1037
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: but apparently it's just like word of mouth and the

1038
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: particular jurisdiction has to be down with it and support it,

1039
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: and it's just not super widespread here. Yeah. Well, I mean,

1040
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 1: the read technique isn't the force of law. It's just

1041
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 1: the gold standard. It's the one that everybody uses and there, like,

1042
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 1: I want to be like the cops on the shows. Well, yeah, exactly,

1043
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: I want to do the piece technique. Um, the in Canada,

1044
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: I found a completely different technique too. It's called the Mr.

1045
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 1: Big technique. Have you heard of it. It's it's extremely involved. Basically,

1046
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: you the suspect, will meet an undercover cop who's posing

1047
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 1: as a criminal while you're out and about and free

1048
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 1: and easy or whatever, or maybe while you're being booked whatever,

1049
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: and you guys are gonna become friends and over the

1050
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: course of the next several months, this undercover cop is

1051
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 1: going to gain your trust and get you to ultimately confess.

1052
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 1: That shows how little crime there is. They're like, so,

1053
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 1: would you cut down your neighbor's street right exactly where

1054
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 1: like they can spend like three months on a single confession.

1055
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, But it's called the Mr. Big technique

1056
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 1: and it actually the reason it's called Mr biggess Uh

1057
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: in its ideal form, you, um, the suspect are become

1058
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 1: like kind of criminal compatriots with this this undercover cop

1059
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: who then introduces you to Mr Big, this crime boss

1060
01:00:57,680 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: who wants you to step up to the next crime

1061
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 1: lab bowl. But it's gonna get you to talk about

1062
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 1: this murder that you did or whatever, and then you

1063
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: confess it and you're being secretly taped and you don't

1064
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 1: know it and you've just entrapped yourself. Man. I love Canada,

1065
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 1: Mr I might have to move there, man, Yeah, you're

1066
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 1: gonna stick around after a Toronto or Vancouver might just

1067
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 1: one country. So we said earlier we were gonna give

1068
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: some tips. I think we'd be remiss if we didn't. Um.

1069
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 1: They seem a little silly, but they recommend you just

1070
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 1: don't talk. You don't talk, they said, imagine the words

1071
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: I invoke my rights to remain silent painted on the

1072
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 1: wall and stare at them. Uh, ask for counsel, ask

1073
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 1: for a lawyer. And then the number five thing they

1074
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: say to do is cultivate hatred for your interrogator. Who

1075
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 1: who's that from Peace Help Beagle or something weird like that.

1076
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:51,439
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's for recommendations for animal rights activists who

1077
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 1: get arrested. So yeah, he seems kind of basic to me.

1078
01:01:57,600 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: It is, but I think it's one of those things

1079
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 1: where they can easily go out the window when you're

1080
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: in that situation, you know. Yeah, and again, if you're

1081
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 1: in the United States and you invoke your right to council,

1082
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: that's that like the cops are they have to stop,

1083
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 1: and if they don't, that's a that's a big problem.

1084
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: I kind of perversely want to know how I would

1085
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 1: hold up. I know it's no laughing matter and I

1086
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: shouldn't joke around about it, but I would like to

1087
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 1: be interrogated just to see. Uh so, Uh, I guess

1088
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 1: that's if you want to learn some more about UM

1089
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 1: police interrogation, check out this article police interrogation on how

1090
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. It's a good one, um, and

1091
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: you can find that by using the search bar, of course.

1092
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 1: And since I said that it's time for listener mail,

1093
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this Jittery Joe's. Oh Yeah Coffee. Hey guys, Hope,

1094
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 1: Paul as well my wife Cassie now are big fancy

1095
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 1: yalls and uh we've been listening for years. This summer

1096
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 1: we took a two month honeymoon to Southeast Asia. It

1097
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 1: was a blast. Your podcasts kept the sane. Thanks for that.

1098
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 1: You sent you a postcard from uh angkor Wat in Cambodia. Uh.

1099
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 1: It was bought there, written in Borneo, and mailed from Malaysia.

1100
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 1: Remember so it was well traveled. Um. Anyway, we live

1101
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 1: in Athens and love to hear your stories about Athens.

1102
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 1: We actually live in five Points on the Shortcut Road

1103
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,439
Speaker 1: where Chuck told about his mystery creepy old Lady ghost story.

1104
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: I drive by there every day and I always keep

1105
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 1: an eye out for her. But my day jobs with

1106
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 1: Jittery Joe's Coffee Roasters, a local Athens institution, and um,

1107
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: he brought a huge box of coffee and shirts and

1108
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 1: hats and hand delivered it to the office. And Uh,

1109
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 1: I think he was surprised to know that. I remember

1110
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 1: when Jittery Joe's first opened, because he was like, oh, well,

1111
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 1: that was before my time. I think he I didn't

1112
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 1: think I was as old as I was, But I

1113
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: remember Jittery Joe's opening up. It was a big deals,

1114
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 1: like the first kind of good indie coffee house in Athens.

1115
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 1: I didn't know they were the first, but I'm not

1116
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 1: surprised the first one I remember at least. But he

1117
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 1: suggests the Sumatra Wahana. He said, it's unlike any coffee

1118
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: I've ever had. People either love it or hate it.

1119
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 1: So um, that is from Mike Lord and you can

1120
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: just look up Jittery Joe's online. I'm sure you can

1121
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 1: order this stuff. Yeah, you definitely can. Thanks for the coffee, Mike,

1122
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: it's good. Yes, and thank you to your wife Cassidy

1123
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 1: for all the support. Uh. If you want to give

1124
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 1: Chuck and Eye free stuff, we are happy to accept it.

1125
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: You can get in touch with us to ask for

1126
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 1: our physical mailing address and we'll give it to you. Okay, Yeah,

1127
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 1: I have to say showing up at the office and

1128
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 1: announced was a little weird, but since he had a

1129
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: huge box of coffee, it was all forgetting. Oh yeah,

1130
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 1: so your combaring gifts, It's like, yeah, yeah, it's social lubricant.

1131
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 1: Yeah gifts, sorry, especially good on It's like jittery Joe's coffee.

1132
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 1: You can get in touch with us via Twitter at

1133
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 1: s Y s K podcast. You can join us on

1134
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 1: Facebook dot com, so I Stuff you Should Know. You

1135
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: can send us an email at stuff podcast at how

1136
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com, and as always, joined us at

1137
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 1: at Home on the web. Stuff you Should Know dot com.

1138
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio.

1139
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the I heart

1140
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:13,120
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1141
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 1: favorite shows. H