1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 2: I have something a little different to offer you today. 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: It's not a weird little Guy. It's not the end 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: of the long meandering story I've been trying to find 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: the end of for weeks. I'll get there when I 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: get there. This isn't quite a typical episode of Weird 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: Little Guys, but I hope you'll stick around for this 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 2: story anyway, because today I want to give a man 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: his name back. I've been doing a lot of navel 10 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: gazing in this series over the last month or so, 11 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: as I've been writing about Nazi serial killer Joseph Paul Franklin. 12 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 2: I mean, I've been really agonizing over my participation in 13 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,839 Speaker 2: what I feel is the very exploitative genre of true crime. 14 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 2: I'm trying to tell a story that is, in most 15 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 2: respects firmly within that territory. I'm telling it my own way, 16 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 2: winding an in and out of the traditional beats of 17 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 2: a crime story to weave in my side characters and 18 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: the broader historical context of the white power movement this 19 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 2: man is operating within, and obviously the show is about 20 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 2: the weird little guy at the center of it. I 21 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: don't typically spend a great deal of time writing in 22 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 2: detail about the targets of the men I write about, 23 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: mostly because that just feels very invasive to me. I'm 24 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: not going to call up the widow of a murder 25 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: victim to try to get a pull quote from my podcast. 26 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you his children's names. That's 27 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: I don't know. It feels gross to me. It's not 28 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: the kind of research I do. But I realized when 29 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: I sat down to write this week. I spent all 30 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 2: of February, all of Black History Month, of all months, 31 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 2: writing around the lives and deaths of black men, writing 32 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: about this white man's quest to snuff out black lives. 33 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 2: And as I'm combing through my sources, I see other 34 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: people doing that too. In an episode two weeks ago, 35 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 2: I listed the names of Joseph Paul Franklin's victims, the 36 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 2: twenty two people that it is generally agreed upon that 37 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 2: he murdered, the people he credibly confessed to or was 38 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 2: convicted of murdering between nineteen seventy seven and nineteen eighty 39 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 2: and one of those names had a sort of verbal 40 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: asterisk next to it. Because the vast majority of sources 41 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: will tell you that in August of nineteen seventy nine, 42 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: Joseph Paul Franklin shot and killed a man named Raymond 43 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: Taylor in False Church, Virginia. When I was putting my 44 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: notes together, trying to find a little piece of information 45 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: about each victim, some fact about their lives that wasn't 46 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: about their deaths. Something I could tell you, some tiny 47 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 2: snippet of who they were as a living human being. 48 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: I couldn't find Raymond Taylor. There was no Raymond Taylor 49 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: in False Church, Virginia, not one who died in August 50 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: of nineteen seventy nine. Anyway. There's just no such guy. 51 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 2: But all the books and articles and documentaries, televised interviews 52 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: filmed in prison waiting rooms, they all mentioned this man, 53 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: this Raymond Taylor. They just sort of mentioned him in 54 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: passing as they're rushing past his existence to get to 55 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: some more titillating part of the story that's being told 56 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 2: about the racist who killed him. Even the crime Classification Manual, 57 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: a law enforcement text written by and for the people 58 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 2: who solve murders, lists this man as Raymond Taylor. And 59 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: if the guy who invented the term serial killer says it, 60 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: why can't I just leave it at that, but I 61 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: needed to be able to say something about who this 62 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: man was. And here I am stuck at step one. 63 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: I can't even find a Raymond Taylor in Falls Church, 64 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: Virginia to learn anything about. And that made me feel 65 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 2: really uneasy. Then this past week I was flipping through 66 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: another book about Joseph Paul Franklin. I'm still writing this story, 67 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: and as far as books go, I've mostly been using 68 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: mel Eaten's twenty eleven biography, but there are a handful 69 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: of other books out there. And in Carol Townsend's twenty 70 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: sixteen book One, centered around the investigation into Larry Flint shooting, 71 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 2: the author mentions this killing and she refers to the 72 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: man killed in Falls Church in nineteen seventy nine as 73 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: William Taylor. And that was the last straw, right. All 74 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 2: these sources are calling him Raymond Taylor, and I don't 75 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: think that's correct. But now here he is again, and 76 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: he gets half a sentence and an entirely new, different, 77 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 2: wrong name. I hate an inconsistency in the story. I 78 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: will waste days of my own time tracking something down 79 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 2: just to sort it out for myself. But this, this 80 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: was a real human being. This was a man who 81 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: lived and he died, and it was not that long ago. 82 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 2: There's no reason we shouldn't be able to find out 83 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 2: what his name was. I couldn't help, but notice that 84 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 2: the very next victim on my timeline is named Taylor. 85 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: Franklin shot and killed a man named Jesse Taylor alongside 86 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: his wife, Marian Brissett in Oklahoma City, two months after 87 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: the shooting in Falls Church. So I think maybe what 88 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 2: happened here is someone mixed up the names between those 89 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 2: two murders once and that error just got replicated so 90 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: many times that it became the official version of the story. 91 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: And if that is what happened, then the mistake must 92 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: have an origin point. You can track this back to 93 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 2: where it happened. And I think the first time this 94 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 2: victim is referred to as Raymond Taylor was in March 95 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety seven. In this ongoing series about Joseph 96 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: Paul Franklin, we aren't up to that point in his timeline, 97 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: Like I said, all in due time, we'll get there. 98 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 2: But in January of nineteen ninety seven, Joseph Paul Franklin 99 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: was sentenced to death. He was finally officially on death row. 100 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 2: Which was something that he wanted at the time. So 101 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: in February of nineteen ninety seven, he's sitting in jail 102 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 2: in Missouri, and he's in a confessing kind of mood. 103 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: He's saying that he's not going to appeal the death sentence, 104 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: the death sentence that he asked for, and it seems 105 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: like he believes he'll be put to death quickly. He 106 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: was very wrong about that, of course, but I think 107 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: that's where his head was. He's a dead man walking 108 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: and it's time to sort of wrap things up. So 109 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 2: not long after receiving that death sentence, it's February of 110 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven, he's sitting in jail in Missouri and 111 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 2: he gives an interview to Janet Tomorrow for Inside Edition, 112 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: and when they finished taping the episode, she left the 113 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: prison and called the police in Falls Church, Virginia. I 114 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 2: couldn't actually find a copy of that March third, nineteen 115 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: ninety seven episode of Inside Edition, so I don't know 116 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: exactly what he said to her, but based on the 117 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: articles published about the episode before it aired, he gave 118 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: the reporter specific detailed information about a still unsolved murder 119 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: that he claimed to have committed in False Church, Virginia 120 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: in August of nineteen seventy nine. The information was so 121 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 2: specific that the False Church Police department's public information officer 122 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 2: put out a statement before the episode even aired confirming 123 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: that they had spoken with the journalist and they believed 124 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 2: Franklin was a strong suspect. They were planning to send 125 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: detectives down later that week to interview him. One of 126 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: those detectives is quoted in an article calling Franklin a 127 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 2: bonafide suspect. And it makes sense that they would want 128 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: to get out ahead of this. False Church doesn't have 129 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: a lot of murders. It's not a big place. It's 130 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 2: one of Virginia's independent cities, so it's technically mostly surrounded 131 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 2: by Fairfax County, but it isn't part of the county. 132 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 2: It's just a little city. And in nineteen eighty it 133 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 2: had a population of under ten thousand people, and according 134 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,599 Speaker 2: to the uniform Crime Report data the city submitted to 135 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: the FBI that year, they'd had a single murder in 136 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty, So it was going to be explosive news 137 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: that a serial killer on death row was confessing to 138 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: having killed in their small town. 139 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: I decided he was be a good target because of 140 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: where he was, said that there wasn't anyone else room 141 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: and running acrosshairs just slowly sways the trigger and lack 142 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: I've done that dropped around the first chat. 143 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: I found that clip of the interview with Janet Tomorrow 144 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 2: embedded in a documentary that was produced later, but I 145 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 2: couldn't find actual audio of any portion of the Inside 146 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: Edition episode that contains this victim's name. It seems unlikely 147 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 2: to me that he would have told her the name 148 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: of the man that he shot through the window of 149 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: a burger king in nineteen seventy nine, because I don't 150 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 2: think he could have known it. He knows what he did, 151 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: where and when, but he didn't know who we shot. 152 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: According to accounts published in a handful of newspapers the 153 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: week before the episode aired, the show named the victim 154 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: as twenty eight year old Raymond Taylor, and it wasn't 155 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: just Inside Edition calling him that. A handful of newspapers 156 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: in Virginia ran an Associated Press wire story about that 157 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 2: episode before it, quoting false church police officials and referring 158 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 2: to the victim as Raymond Taylor. I even dug up 159 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 2: old issues at the False Church News Press, a tiny 160 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 2: local weekly paper, and it's the same there. I don't 161 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: know what the False Church Police department's cold case backlog 162 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 2: would have looked like in nineteen ninety seven, but it 163 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 2: couldn't have been deep. They only have one or two 164 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: sometimes no murders in a year, so it wouldn't have 165 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: been hard to figure out which murder Franklin was talking 166 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 2: about when he described what he did in nineteen seventy nine, 167 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 2: because there was only one murder in False Church in 168 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine. The twenty eight year old Knight, manager 169 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: of the False Church Burger King, who was murdered a 170 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 2: few minutes before ten pm on August eighteenth, nineteen seventy nine, 171 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 2: was Raymond Turner. A week after the episode of Inside 172 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: Edition aired, two detectives from the False Church Police Department 173 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 2: traveled to Missouri to interview Joseph Paul Franklin about this confession. 174 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 2: But all of the reporting that exists, everything I could 175 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: find about this trip to Missouri was published before it happened. 176 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: All of the articles talk about this in the future tense. 177 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 2: They're going to go do this before the episode even aired. 178 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: They're putting out these statements about how they're on it. 179 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: They're on this case, they're going to go talk to him, 180 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 2: They're going to get this resolved. But I can't find 181 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 2: any reporting about it ever. Again, according to mel Ayton's 182 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: biography of Franklin, those detectives did go down to Missouri 183 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: and they talked to him. They videotaped the conversation. He 184 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: confessed again, and he provided credible, detailed, accurate information about 185 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: this crime. Who was ultimately decided that there was no 186 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 2: point trying to process secute him. Though it's not that 187 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: they thought it wasn't a real confession. I think they 188 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: believed him. There was just no point. He was already 189 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: on death row. But then they chose not to communicate 190 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 2: this to the public in any way. They made this 191 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: big public announcement about how they're going to go talk 192 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 2: to him, and then it doesn't look like they followed up. 193 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: There are obviously real limitations on the amount of local 194 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 2: news from thirty years ago that I can find sitting 195 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: here in my office on my computer. But I found 196 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 2: the articles that were written before they talked to him, 197 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 2: and some of those were picked up on the wire. 198 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:47,599 Speaker 2: I found articles in local publications, but None of these publications, 199 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 2: None of the publications that ran stories about this confession 200 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: at the beginning of March of nineteen ninety seven had 201 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 2: a story about it. Later, I searched the local papers 202 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: archived to the Library VI Gina. I even searched the 203 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: archives at the Fairfax County Library. It seems like it 204 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: just never came up again. In the January nineteen ninety 205 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: eight issue of the False Church News Press, there is 206 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: a vague reference to the story buried twelve pages into 207 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 2: their list of top stories of nineteen ninety seven. It 208 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,239 Speaker 2: says police quote questioned a man in Saint Louis suspected 209 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 2: in the unsolved nineteen seventy nine murder at the Burger King. 210 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: Here that's it. Neither man is named. The man in 211 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 2: Saint Louis isn't described as a convicted serial killer on 212 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: death row. There's no next sentence. It doesn't say what 213 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 2: happened after that. It doesn't say who died. A decade later, 214 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: there's an issue of that same paper with a little 215 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: inset box labeled back in the day, and it's showing 216 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 2: headlines from ten years earlier. There's a little snippet of 217 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: that original article about Franklin's confession, but the blurb doesn't 218 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: include the victim's name, not even the incorrect name they 219 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 2: gave him in nineteen ninety seven. He's just gone erased 220 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 2: from the story of his own unsolved murder. His name 221 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: was Raymond Turner, not Raymond Taylor. Raymond Elton Turner born 222 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: March twenty seventh, nineteen fifty one, to parents Dorothy Elizabeth 223 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 2: Falkes Turner and Charles Robert Turner Senior. He was twenty 224 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: eight years old when he died on August eighteenth, nineteen 225 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: seventy nine. He had two daughters and two brothers and 226 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: one half sister, and he grew up in Middleburg, Virginia. 227 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: He was working as the night relief manager at the 228 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 2: Burger King in Falls Church, Virginia. On the night that 229 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: he died. He was taking his break, sitting at a 230 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: table in the restaurant eating his dinner at nine to 231 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: fifty pm. When Joseph Paul Franklin pulled up outside. He 232 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: saw a young black man sitting alone at a table 233 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 2: eating a burger at an empty restaurant, and he fired 234 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: at him through the window. There are two or three 235 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: sentences in one local newspaper the Monday after he died, 236 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: but there's not a lot of information there. But I 237 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 2: did find a copy of his death certificate. In that 238 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: interview Franklin gave Inside Edition, he boasts that he dropped 239 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: him right on the first shot, and he's right. According 240 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: to the medical examiner, the cause of death was a 241 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: perforating gunshot wound to the thorax, causing instant death. And 242 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: that's it. That's all any of my sources and all 243 00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: of my research could tell me about Raymond Turner death certificate, 244 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 2: a picture of a tombstone and an obituary that isn't 245 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 2: even seventy words long. I know he was in a 246 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 2: car accident in nineteen seventy two. I can't find any 247 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: evidence that he actually got divorced, but his wife isn't 248 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 2: listed in the obituary. The woman he married in nineteen 249 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: seventy two remarried a year after he died, and when 250 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: she applied for a marriage license, she checked the box 251 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 2: on the form for previously divorced, but she listed the 252 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: date of the divorce as the day that her first 253 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 2: husband died. So I don't know if she checked the 254 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: wrong box or if that means they were in the 255 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 2: process of divorcing when he died. Normally, that would be 256 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,239 Speaker 2: the point where I call it off. This isn't the 257 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: man I'm writing about. I don't need a whole biography 258 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 2: of every victim. It's not my fault. The newspaper didn't 259 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 2: bother saying anything about his life when he died, and 260 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 2: at least we have something right. I satisfied my own 261 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 2: need for order. I found the right answer to the 262 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 2: mistake and the source material. I know his name, but 263 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 2: it's not enough this time. The fact that his name 264 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 2: could be taken from him at all means something. The 265 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 2: fact that his unsolved murder wasn't in the newspaper every 266 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: year on the anniversary of his death, the fact that 267 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 2: there was no follow up of the decision not to 268 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 2: prosecute his killer. In twenty fifteen, the burger king on 269 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 2: West broad Street and Falls Church where he died was 270 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 2: closed for good. It was demolished. There were a bunch 271 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 2: of local news articles that year about this decision. Articles 272 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 2: about planning commission meetings and development proposals, the ultimate decision 273 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 2: to build an assisted living facility on that site, the 274 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 2: decision to allow the fire department to conduct training exercises 275 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: where it was demolished. There was even a letter to 276 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: the editor in the Falls Church News Press from a 277 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 2: longtime resident who worked there as a teenager the summer 278 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 2: that had opened in nineteen sixty seven. People had a 279 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: lot to say about this old burger king, but there 280 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 2: were no articles about the time a serial killer murdered 281 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: the manager there. I can't tell you anything else about 282 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: Raymond Turner, but I can try to find the context 283 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: that helps explain why that might be, because I did 284 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 2: find one other thing. I found a few pictures of him. 285 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 2: Not from his obituary or from an article published after 286 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 2: his death or about his murder. No, I found picture 287 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: from his high school yearbook. I had to subscribe to 288 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 2: some horrible website to get it, but I have a 289 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 2: scammed copy of the nineteen sixty nine Loudun County High 290 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: School yearbook. There are a bunch of pictures of him 291 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 2: in there. He was on the basketball team, He was 292 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 2: a member of the school's varsity athletes letterman's fundraising group. 293 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 2: There are two pictures of him posing in his electronics class. 294 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: He even had a nickname. They called him as Turner. 295 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: I assume because of his glasses. And it's an interesting 296 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 2: high school yearbook because the nineteen sixty eight nineteen sixty 297 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: nine school year was the first year that schools in 298 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: Loudun County, Virginia, were officially racially integrated. Now you might 299 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 2: be asking, Molly, how is that possible. Didn't Bounder sport 300 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: of Education get decided in nineteen fifty four? Weren't public 301 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: schools required to integrate after that? Didn't they send us 302 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 2: Marshalls and the National Guard to schools in Arkansas to 303 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 2: make sure that happened? How could this school have remained 304 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 2: racially segregated for almost fifteen years after the Supreme Court 305 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 2: told everybody to knock that shit off. Even if you 306 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: are already familiar with the history of Virginia's strategy of 307 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 2: massive resistance to school desegregation, you might be surprised to 308 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 2: learn that Loudun County was one of the last school 309 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 2: districts in the country to comply with brown ur sport 310 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 2: of education. Not just one of the last in Virginia, 311 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 2: but one of the last in the country. After the 312 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: Supreme Court ruled in nineteen fifty four that racially segregated 313 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: schools were unconstitutional, everyone was supposed to integrate, but the 314 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 2: ruling didn't really provide much guidance on how that was 315 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 2: supposed to be accomplished. So a year later, in nineteen 316 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 2: fifty five, the Supreme Court issued another opinion, one that's 317 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: generally referred to as Brown two. And it was a 318 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 2: sort of follow up to the original opinion about how 319 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 2: to implement it. And I would argue it did not 320 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 2: help Justice Felix Frankfurter, a man with a very silly 321 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: name who would later refuse to hire a young female 322 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 2: law clerk because he felt that this Ruth Bader Ginsburg 323 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 2: woman wasn't the right gender for the job. He wrote 324 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 2: in this opinion that school districts must comply with the 325 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: Court's ruling and desegregate their schools quote with all deliberate speed. 326 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 2: And it's not to find what is deliberate speed. It 327 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 2: kind of sounds like, you know, don't rush, start working 328 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 2: on it, but don't hurt yourself. We can take a 329 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 2: gradual approach to constitutional rights on this one. All deliberate speed. 330 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: It's sort of up to you to decide what that means. 331 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 2: There's no deadline, no set of benchmarks, no accomplish X goal. 332 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 2: By nineteen fifty six. Another goal by fifty seven finished 333 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 2: the process within four years, something like that. None of that, 334 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: just work on it at the speed of your choosing, 335 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 2: which some school districts interpreted as permission to stall. In Virginia, 336 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: school integration was thwarted at every level, and most powerfully 337 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 2: at the state level. If a school district made any 338 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 2: attempt to comply with the Supreme Court ruling, the governor 339 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 2: would simply close down the schools, all of them, every 340 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 2: school in the district. For years, there were school districts 341 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 2: in Virginia that had no operational public schools for the 342 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 2: entirety of the late nineteen fifties, state laws were passed 343 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: that allowed the state funding that would have gone to 344 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 2: public schools to be funneled into tuition grant programs that 345 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 2: allowed white students to attend white's only private schools at 346 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 2: no cost to them. Many schools adopted a policy of 347 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 2: freedom of choice plans which allowed students and their families 348 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: to choose which public school they attended, and wouldn't you 349 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 2: know it, everyone just happened to choose to continue to 350 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 2: attend segregated schools. In Prince Edward County, the local government 351 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 2: just stopped funding the school district altogether. They thought they 352 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 2: could get around the court's orders by providing private school 353 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 2: vouchers to all students to use it the private school 354 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 2: with their choice, but there were no private schools in 355 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 2: the area that accepted black students. In nineteen sixty four, 356 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court rule that Prince Edward County had in 357 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 2: fact violated the Fourteenth Amendment by refusing to fund their 358 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 2: public schools, and when the county was forced to reopen 359 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 2: the public schools in nineteen sixty four, no white students 360 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 2: showed up. Legally, they were complying. In practice, their schools 361 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 2: were still fully segregated. All of the white students in 362 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 2: Prince Edward County were still attending the whites only private school, 363 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 2: what were called segregation academies in the South. That school 364 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: in Prince Edward County didn't admit its first black student 365 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 2: until nineteen eighty six. Raymond Turner was born in Loudun 366 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: County in nineteen fifty one, so that decision in Brown v. 367 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: Board in nineteen fifty four before he was even old 368 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 2: enough to go to school, but he would eventually be 369 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 2: one of the first black students to attend a fully 370 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 2: integrated high school in the county. So here's where I 371 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 2: feel like someone really dropped the ball. Why were there 372 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 2: no news stories about Raymond Turner's murder that include his father. 373 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: It just seems like incredibly rich context here that Raymond 374 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 2: Turner's father, Charles or Jack Turner, was on the forefront 375 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 2: of the fight for integration in Louden County. Yes, the 376 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 2: murder was random, Raymond Turner wasn't selected as a target 377 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 2: because of his father's civil rights activism. But I just 378 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 2: don't think you can responsibly talk about the racially motivated 379 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: murder of this young man without placing it in the 380 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: context of the systemic racism of the world he lived 381 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 2: in in Northern Virginia in the sixties and sevenpies. Raymond 382 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 2: Turner was able to be one of the first black 383 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 2: students to attend Loudun County High School because of his father, 384 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 2: because of the fight put up by the County Wide 385 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 2: League and the NAACP organizations his father had been active 386 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 2: in for decades. There is a small treasure trove of 387 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 2: old records related to the fight for civil rights in 388 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 2: Loudun County that are preserved by the Edwin Washington project. 389 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 2: Their archive isn't fully digitized online, but from what I 390 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 2: have been able to access, Jack Turner was deeply involved 391 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: in this work as early as the nineteen thirties, when 392 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 2: he was a young, unmarried man in his twenties with 393 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,719 Speaker 2: no children. In the nineteen thirties, black residents in Loudun 394 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 2: County raised three thousand dollars of their own money to 395 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,719 Speaker 2: buy a plot of land and then they transferred that 396 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: land to the county the nominal price of one dollar. 397 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: They essentially gave this three thousand dollars parcel of land 398 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 2: to the county and they bought it themselves to help 399 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 2: convince the county to build a school for black children, 400 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 2: because there wasn't one before that. And Jack Turner's name 401 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 2: is on the petition to the county asking them to 402 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,479 Speaker 2: construct Frederick Douglas High School, which was built in nineteen 403 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 2: forty one. And in nineteen sixty two, when the school 404 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: district was slow walking the process of integration, trying to 405 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 2: skirt court orders by pretending to consider applications from black 406 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: students wishing to attend the white school, only to reject 407 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 2: them for failing to meet arbitrary academic qualifications. Jack Turner 408 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 2: was one of the local black leaders who turned up 409 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 2: again and again at school board meetings. As a member 410 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 2: of the Douglas High School Parent Teacher Association, he was 411 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 2: a member of the official delegation sent to the school 412 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 2: board to urge them to form an interracial committee to 413 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: work on the problem. And it was the Loudenn County 414 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 2: NAACP that helped bring about the lawsuit against the so 415 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 2: called Pupil Placement Board in nineteen sixty two, that body 416 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 2: that was preventing black students from attending the allegedly integrated schools. 417 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: And in nineteen sixty six, it was the NAACP again 418 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: that contacted the Justice Department, which ultimately forced the courts 419 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 2: to intervene and finally abolish these loopholes and workarounds the 420 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 2: county was using to keep their schools segregated. Jack Turner 421 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: didn't just send his son to an integrated high school. 422 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 2: He made an integrated high school to send his son to. 423 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 2: He had spent the last thirty years fighting for his 424 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 2: son to have a school to attend at all, starting 425 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: years before his children were even born, and as school 426 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 2: segregation in Loudun County was finally about to end, Jack 427 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 2: Turner ran for office. In nineteen sixty seven, Jack Turner 428 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: was elected to a seat on the Middleburg Town Council. 429 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 2: Middleburg is a tiny little town in Loudun County. That 430 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: same year, another man by Sham Simms, was elected to 431 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 2: the town council in nearby Purcellville. They were the first 432 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: black men to ever hold elected office in Loudon County, 433 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 2: and this was just five years after John Wilmer Porter 434 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: was elected to office in the town of Dumfries in 435 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty two, becoming the first black person to hold 436 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,239 Speaker 2: office in Virginia since the adoption of the nineteen oh 437 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 2: two state Constitution. Not to derail us entirely, but I 438 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: really cannot emphasize enough how systematically, thoroughly and intentionally racist 439 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 2: the system of government adopted by the Commonwealth of Virginia was. 440 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 2: Reconstruction didn't just fail, they killed it. At the nineteen 441 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 2: oh one State Constitutional Convention, one delegate said in public, 442 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: out loud, with his whole chest that quote, the great 443 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 2: underlying principle of this convention movement, the one object and 444 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: cause which assembled this body, was the elimination of the 445 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 2: Negro from the politics of the state. Another delegate said, quote, 446 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 2: there is but one spot in Virginia where the Negro 447 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 2: can make himself useful and not come into conflict with 448 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 2: the superior race. That spot is in the cornfield and 449 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: on the tobacco ground as an agricultural laborer. These are 450 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: statements made by delegates to the state Constitutional Convention. This 451 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 2: isn't from one of my Nazi newsletters. I read a 452 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 2: lot of Nazi newsletters, and they do say things like this. 453 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 2: These were public statements made by respectable men, men who 454 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 2: rewrote my state constitution. So just keep that in mind. 455 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 2: Virginia rewrote its state constitution to keep black Virginians from 456 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 2: holding office, to keep them from voting, to keep them 457 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 2: from owning property, to keep them from attaining wealth or power, 458 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 2: to put them back into conditions as close to slavery 459 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: as they could manage. And it did the job. No 460 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 2: black person held office in Virginia for two generations, so 461 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 2: Jack Turner wasn't the first, but he was damn close. 462 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: It was a big deal, and he appeared to have 463 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 2: remained on the Middleburg Town Council until his death in 464 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one. I found some county records that show 465 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: he won reelection in nineteen ninety. Jack Turner was also 466 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: a founding member of the board that operated the Marshall 467 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: Street Community Center. He was a deacon at the Shiloh 468 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 2: Baptist Church. He was a member of the board that 469 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 2: administered the local Black Cemetery. He was on a local 470 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 2: black men's base ball team, and his wife, Dorothy, played 471 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 2: on the women's team. He was a member of the 472 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 2: Independent Order of Oddfellows, a fraternal organization, and he was 473 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: the secretary of his local lodge. By all accounts, it 474 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 2: would appear that this was a man who spent decades 475 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 2: trying to make his little corner of the world a 476 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 2: place where black people had equal rights, equal access, equal pay, 477 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: and equal protection. He helped build the first black school 478 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 2: in the county in nineteen forty. He helped integrate the 479 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: schools in the nineteen sixties. He held public office when 480 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 2: that wasn't something black people could do in Virginia. And 481 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 2: then his son was shocked by a Nazi clansman, and 482 00:33:46,440 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 2: nobody wrote about it. That context matters to me. It's 483 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 2: a long walk around the block to tell you. I 484 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 2: don't know very much about Raymond Turner, but I don't 485 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 2: think they taught us twentieth century history very well in school. 486 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 2: When Raymond Turner died in nineteen seventy nine, he was 487 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 2: just a decade out of high school, having been one 488 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 2: of the first black students to attend an integrated high 489 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 2: school in one of the last school districts in the 490 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 2: country to integrate. Joseph Paul Franklin wasn't just killing at random. 491 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 2: I mean, he was choosing random black people to shoot. 492 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 2: But he was doing exactly what the delegates at the 493 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 2: nineteen oh one State Constitutional Convention did. He was trying 494 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 2: to create a world that didn't include black people. And 495 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 2: I think when you erase that part of the story, 496 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: you're doing that work too. Just a little bit. In 497 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 2: the end, I think I can and understand the decision 498 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 2: that was made not to prosecute him for this murder. 499 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 2: By nineteen ninety seven, he really was locked up forever. 500 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 2: There was no question about it. Now he had life 501 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 2: sentences in multiple jurisdictions, state and federal, and now he's 502 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 2: on death row. There really wasn't much point in moving 503 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 2: him around, transporting him to and from court, letting him 504 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 2: grandstand in front of a jury, and footing the bill 505 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 2: for it. That's an unsavory reality. Sometimes these decisions are 506 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 2: just about cost, because trials can be very expensive, and 507 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: those are costs borne by the locality. So in this case, 508 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,879 Speaker 2: it would have been the little town of False Church 509 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 2: that was on the hook for this money. And the 510 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,240 Speaker 2: cost of a murder trial is all over the map. 511 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,720 Speaker 2: It's hard to say exactly what this would have cost. 512 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 2: I read an analysis done by the courts in Washington 513 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 2: State that looked at murder trial between nineteen ninety seven 514 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 2: and nineteen ninety nine, and they found costs that ranged 515 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 2: from thirty two thousand dollars to one point two million dollars. Obviously, 516 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 2: those higher end numbers are death penalty cases with a 517 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 2: lot of appeals attached to them. A nineteen ninety three 518 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,720 Speaker 2: study funded by the state of North Carolina found average 519 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 2: costs of around seventeen thousand dollars for non death penalty cases, 520 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 2: and a twenty sixteen Rand Corporation study puts the average 521 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 2: cost for non capital murder trials between twenty two and 522 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 2: forty four thousand dollars. So the answer is no one knows, 523 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 2: but we're looking at tens of thousands of dollars at 524 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:47,760 Speaker 2: a minimum. Potentially into the millions. Costs to the county 525 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,399 Speaker 2: include hiring investigators or experts, costs associated with the work 526 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 2: done by the prosecutor's office, paying for quarter appointed representation 527 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 2: for the defendant, courtroom security costs, transportation for the defendant 528 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 2: from out of state, moving him to and from court 529 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 2: every day, and the cost of keeping him in the 530 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 2: local jail. Although, just to offer you one counterpoint, when 531 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 2: the state of Wisconsin put Franklin on trial in nineteen 532 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 2: eighty six, there were people who made this point. They said, 533 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 2: this is a waste of money. This is going to 534 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 2: be very expensive, and initial estimates for that trial were 535 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 2: as high as two hundred thousand dollars. But in the end, 536 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 2: it only costs Dane County twenty five thousand dollars to 537 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 2: convict him of a double homicide after a five day trial. 538 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 2: But like I said, I do think I can understand 539 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: why False Church decided not to proceed with a trial 540 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety seven. It was a twenty year old case. 541 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 2: The killer's already on death row and he's not even 542 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 2: trying to appeal it. He's gonna die. Why waste the money? 543 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 2: I guess it depends on what you think the judicial 544 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 2: system is for. But I can make peace with that 545 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 2: prosecutorial decision. What I don't understand is why they didn't 546 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 2: say anything. Why not make a statement. Why was there 547 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 2: no article announcing that the case was being formally closed 548 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 2: without charges filed. The only proof that I have that 549 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 2: a decision was made at all is a footnote in 550 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 2: mel Aateen's book, and the citation for the claim that 551 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 2: this decision was made is an internal prison system memo. 552 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 2: Remember he's in a prison in Missouri at this time, 553 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 2: so someone in the Missouri prison system sent a memo 554 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 2: saying we're keeping him. They don't want him. So in 555 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 2: false Church, the decision was made to let Joseph Paul 556 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 2: Franklin have the last word on this murder. And he 557 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 2: didn't even get the victim's name right. By the time 558 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 2: those detectives flew down to Missouri in nineteen ninety seven, 559 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 2: Raymond Turner's parents had both passed away. His mother died 560 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty seven and his father in nineteen ninety one. 561 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 2: One of his brothers died in nineteen ninety five. He 562 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 2: had a half sister who still lived in the area, 563 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 2: and his other brother lived somewhere else, and I'm not 564 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 2: sure if false Church police made any effort to talk 565 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 2: to them. His widow still lived nearby. She hadn't even 566 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 2: left the county, though she'd remarried and had a new name. 567 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 2: And maybe they talked to them at some point, but 568 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 2: I don't think it was before they put out that 569 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 2: public statement, because if they'd talked to his family before 570 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 2: they put out a press release, they would have gotten 571 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 2: his name, right, wouldn't they. Did some reporter somewhere ask 572 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 2: his family what they thought about this? Did anyone talk 573 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 2: to them at all? Did anyone tell them this case 574 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,800 Speaker 2: was solved? There wouldn't be any formal reckoning, there wouldn't 575 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 2: be a trial, there be no conviction, there be no accountability. 576 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 2: But at least they would finally know after eighteen years 577 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 2: of having absolutely no explanation for this single bullet that 578 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 2: came in through the window from the darkness outside. Did 579 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 2: someone tell them? Maybe someone asked them how they felt, 580 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 2: But no one put it in the newspaper, no one 581 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 2: put it in their book. The central thesis of this 582 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 2: show has always been that there are no monsters, not 583 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 2: real ones. Take a closer look at those monsters peel 584 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 2: back the lairs, and you'll see that the men behind 585 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 2: these unspeakable acts of violence are still just men. They 586 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 2: aren't exceptional, they aren't supernatural or mysterious or impossible to understand. 587 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:12,240 Speaker 2: They're just some fucking guy. They're a product of the world. 588 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 2: They live in the world we live in. What Joseph 589 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,760 Speaker 2: Paul Franklin did was extreme, but it wasn't some thing 590 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,879 Speaker 2: that is separate from our reality, that is beyond our comprehension. 591 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 2: We wrote Raymond Turner out of the story of his 592 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 2: own death for the same reason Joseph Paul Franklin took 593 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 2: him out of this world, because Raymond Turner, too, was 594 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,320 Speaker 2: a man who lived in this world, and the world 595 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 2: we all live in does not particularly care about the 596 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 2: safety and happiness of a young black man who was 597 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 2: just minding his own business, taking his dinner break on 598 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 2: an overnight shift. Joseph Paul Franklin was just doing with 599 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,280 Speaker 2: a gun, with so many respectable men have done in quieter, 600 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 2: less obvious ways in legislatures and school board meetings, in 601 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 2: oppay sections. On a societal level, in the way we 602 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 2: tell these stories, we exceptionalize the extreme manifestation of this 603 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 2: because we're ashamed to admit we're okay with just letting 604 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 2: it happen up to a point. Joseph Paul Franklin's crimes 605 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 2: are typically referred to in shorthand as serial murders of 606 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 2: interracial couples, but that actually only accounts for less than 607 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 2: half of his known victims. A month before he shot 608 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 2: Raymond Turner, he shot and killed Harold mc ivor and 609 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 2: the parking lot of a taco bell in Georgia. A 610 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 2: few months after murdering Raymond Turner, in January of nineteen eighty, 611 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 2: he murdered two men in Indianapolis in attacks that were 612 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,800 Speaker 2: very similar to the way he killed Turner. Young black 613 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,800 Speaker 2: men who were standing inside of a place of business 614 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 2: at night shot through the plate glass window from outside. 615 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 2: In all four of these murders, Harold mac ivor, Raymond Turner, 616 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 2: Lawrence Reese, Leo Watkins, Franklin was just driving around at 617 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,840 Speaker 2: night looking for some sort of macabre, makeshift shooting gallery 618 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:20,400 Speaker 2: with human targets. Lawrence Reese was standing near the counter 619 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 2: at a church's chicken around closing time. He didn't work there, 620 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 2: but the restaurant's staff would give him the leftover chicken 621 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,399 Speaker 2: at the end of the night in exchange for help 622 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 2: cleaning up. Two nights later, Leo Thomas Watkins was inside 623 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 2: of a convenience store helping his father, who'd been hired 624 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:42,800 Speaker 2: as an exterminator. Both men were shot with a rifle 625 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 2: through the big front window of the business, just like 626 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:53,240 Speaker 2: Raymond Turner, and just like Raymond Turner's murder. Franklin confessed 627 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 2: to these he did them, and he was even charged 628 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 2: for those two way back in nineteen eighty one, but 629 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 2: Indianapolis never followed through. Just like in the Raymond Turner case. 630 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,880 Speaker 2: The authorities in Indianapolis made a big public announcement that 631 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,759 Speaker 2: they were going to do something about this, and then 632 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 2: you never heard from him again. It just wasn't worth 633 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 2: it to them. I'm still trying to find the end 634 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,839 Speaker 2: of this series about Joseph Paul Franklin. I'm sick of him, 635 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:35,359 Speaker 2: but I'm fascinated by the history around him. We are 636 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 2: getting close to the end. I meant to write the 637 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:43,200 Speaker 2: end this week, but I just couldn't go any further 638 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 2: without stopping for just a second to give this man 639 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:53,760 Speaker 2: his name back. So now I'm just left with this hot, 640 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 2: hollow gnawing feeling in my chest thinking about how a 641 00:44:58,280 --> 00:44:59,959 Speaker 2: young man who grew up in one of the last 642 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 2: counties in America with segregated schools, a man whose family 643 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,880 Speaker 2: was devoted to the struggle for black dignity and equality, 644 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,360 Speaker 2: and whose life was taken on a whim by a 645 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,720 Speaker 2: guy who was just driving around looking for a black 646 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 2: man to shoot. And I can't let go of the 647 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,359 Speaker 2: feeling that we let all of these men die twice. 648 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 2: The Nazi, with delusions about bringing on the race war, 649 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 2: pulled the trigger. Sure, But when we entertain this comforting 650 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 2: fantasy of the lone wolf, the idea that there are 651 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 2: mysterious horses that just lead to terrible things sometimes, and 652 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 2: we put our heads in the sand, and we pretend 653 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 2: that the Joseph Paul Franklins of the world aren't a 654 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:44,359 Speaker 2: hideous but inevitable consequences of the quieter evils we try 655 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 2: so hard to ignore. We kill them again and again, 656 00:45:52,440 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 2: and we ensure that it never stops. Weird Little Guys 657 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,120 Speaker 2: as a production of Cool Zone Media and iHeartRadio. It's research, 658 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 2: written and recorded by me Molly Conker. Our executive producers 659 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,400 Speaker 2: are sophiele Triman and Robert Evans. The show is edited 660 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,319 Speaker 2: by the wildly talented Ory Gagan. The theme music was 661 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 2: composed by Brad Dickert. You can email me at Weird 662 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 2: Little Guys Podcast at gmail dot com. I will definitely 663 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 2: read it, but I probably won't answer it. It's nothing personal. 664 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 2: You can exchange conspiracy theories about the show with other 665 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,760 Speaker 2: listeners on the Weird Little Guys subreddit. Just don't post 666 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,239 Speaker 2: anything that's going to make you one of my Weird 667 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 2: Little Guys