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Speaker 1: Welcome into Northside Territory. Foul Territory Networks Cubs podcast. I'm sad,

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Speaker 1: I'm Charma. With my partner Patrick Mooney, we are your

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Speaker 1: Cubs beat writers over at the Athletic and Patrick Cubs

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Speaker 1: convention has wrapped up. We are less than a month away,

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Speaker 1: like just a couple of weeks away from pitchers and

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Speaker 1: catchers reporting here. I guess it's a it's almost it

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Speaker 1: feels like it's almost baseball season. With the Bears being

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Speaker 1: eliminated in a heartbreaking fashion, we've got the two most

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Speaker 1: hated men in Wisconsin. And and Johnson and Craig Counsel

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Speaker 1: enjoyed that that response from Counsel about whether he'd get

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Speaker 1: bood Moore Ben Johnson, Uh yeah, prompt star.

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Speaker 2: Buddy John Greenberg for teeing that one up of you

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Speaker 2: know who would get bood Moore, you know, doing a

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Speaker 2: pitching change or you know the first pitch scenario, Ben

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Speaker 2: Johnson or Craig Counsel in Milwaukee. I Greg, Greg that

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Speaker 2: was a good brain teaser for Craig. He enjoyed that one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a It was a a good moment and

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Speaker 1: a good question from from John At some levity to

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Speaker 1: it all. There wasn't a ton of you know, I

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Speaker 1: think the big news obviously was made right before Cups

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Speaker 1: convention Alex Bregman. And and that leads to more news,

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Speaker 1: I guess you could say. And and primarily the first thing.

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Speaker 1: What the person we wanted to talk to I think

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Speaker 1: the most was Nico Horner. And and he he spoke.

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Speaker 1: He he talked about the trade rumors. I thought he

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Speaker 1: handled it really well. I thought he ah, he understood why,

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Speaker 1: Like he kind of broke it down in baseball terms

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Speaker 1: before we like he explained it all like what we've

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Speaker 1: been saying. He's got one year left on his deal,

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Speaker 1: you know, like they out of an important player. He

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Speaker 1: doesn't have a no trade clause. It makes sense that

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Speaker 1: his name would come up. I came away from the

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Speaker 1: weekend thinking that Nico Horner is a part of this team,

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Speaker 1: without a doubt in my mind. I would right now.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have been shocked by it by a move.

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Speaker 1: I think I'd be shocked by a move now. Like

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Speaker 1: before the weekend, I was like, hmm, I wonder, I

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Speaker 1: wonder where their heads are at.

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Speaker 3: I wonder what's going on.

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Speaker 1: I'd be absolutely shocked by a move, and I'd be shocked,

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Speaker 1: like mainly because no team, I don't think we'll meet

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Speaker 1: the price of how much the Cubs of how you

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Speaker 1: Nico Horner?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you had a good story in The Athletic that

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Speaker 2: I think had what dansby Swanson calling him irreplaceable and

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Speaker 2: then the line you threw in there about no team

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Speaker 2: values a Nico Horner as much as the Cubs, something

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Speaker 2: to that effect, and it very much rings true. You know,

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Speaker 2: Nico seems like someone who knows he has leverage here

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Speaker 2: and is a very good position. He doesn't have a

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Speaker 2: no trade clause, but he knows how his teammates view him,

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Speaker 2: his manager views him, how the front office does, by

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Speaker 2: and large view him, and that he will be going

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Speaker 2: into next winter, barring an extension, as one of the

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Speaker 2: top free agents out there, and he might be the

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Speaker 2: number one fit for the Cubs next winter. When you

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Speaker 2: look at that list of names, it's not particularly compelling.

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Speaker 2: The Cubs will need someone like Nico next year. And look,

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Speaker 2: the front office has to do this. They take calls,

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Speaker 2: they gauge interest, YadA, YadA, YadA. This is where you know,

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Speaker 2: we always joke with some of our colleagues of every

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Speaker 2: team needs a VP of common sense, and this person

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Speaker 2: just sits in a corner office by themselves most of

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Speaker 2: the time, doing like crossword puzzles, feed up on the desk.

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Speaker 2: Then you just walk in there like, hey, you think

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Speaker 2: we should trade Nico Horner, like no, it makes makes

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Speaker 2: no sense, and then move on. You might not need

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Speaker 2: this person again for a very long time, which is

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Speaker 2: how this team is constructed, the way it got here,

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Speaker 2: the intangible values he brings, and not just to this,

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Speaker 2: he has a very unique skill set that is just

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Speaker 2: like hard to replicate.

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Speaker 4: In this day and age. And so yeah, I'm with you.

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Speaker 4: I came away thinking.

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Speaker 2: He's staying in part because we got that hard confirmation

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Speaker 2: of they don't have to shed his salary to make

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Speaker 2: this work.

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Speaker 4: And when as.

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Speaker 2: We've asked this question, I think there's an understanding that

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Speaker 2: the Cubs have done stuff like this before, like even

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Speaker 2: last off season of getting Tucker and trading Bellinger, like

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Speaker 2: that sequence of moves is not required to board Alex Bregman.

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Speaker 2: So when you look at it that way, when you're

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Speaker 2: hearing that the Cubs essentially expect to go over the

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Speaker 2: luxury tax threshold, this year because they're already so close

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Speaker 2: it's almost inevitable unless the bottom falls out and they

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Speaker 2: start shedding salaries in July.

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Speaker 4: But that's not you know, that's not the operating assumption

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Speaker 4: at this point. And so I'd expect to see him

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Speaker 4: in Mesa.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there, I think we We talked to Carter Hawkins

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Speaker 1: on Saturday. I wish I had the quote in front

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Speaker 1: of me, but I believe he said that the luxury

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Speaker 1: tax is not a consideration for them. It's not something

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Speaker 1: that they're like, it's not a hindrance. I can't remember

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Speaker 1: the wording you use, but essentially, don't don't worry about

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Speaker 1: the luxury tax right now.

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Speaker 3: As far as do.

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Speaker 1: The Cubs need to move Nico Horner because and shed

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Speaker 1: twelve million dollars or whatever the AAV would be to

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Speaker 1: get well under the luxury tax, it's not. That's not

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Speaker 1: why if he's moved won't be for that reason. It's

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Speaker 1: because some team said, we value Nico huck Nico Horner

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Speaker 1: like you guys valued Kyle Tucker last last winter, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to just throw an insane off.

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Speaker 3: Or your way.

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Speaker 1: There some things that I like, I think we will

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Speaker 1: explore in the next six months are like, what what

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Speaker 1: is Nico Horner's comp as far as an extension or

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Speaker 1: even open market value. He's such a unique player, it's

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Speaker 1: not easy to figure that out. At least recently. There's

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Speaker 1: not very many players like him where it's so it's

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Speaker 1: Louis Rise's offense, but he's so much more valuable than

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Speaker 1: Louis Arise because he's Louise A. Rise has no position

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Speaker 1: and he can't and he's got no speed. You know,

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Speaker 1: he can't run the bases, so he's Those are two

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Speaker 1: things that Nico Horner is not average at, elite at.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's great at those two things. So it's

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Speaker 1: not that's not even close to a comp. It's just

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Speaker 1: the offensive skill set. And then you have to take

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Speaker 1: in the fact that he's this elite second baseman who

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Speaker 1: can play shortstop and he's and he steals bases and

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Speaker 1: runs the base as well, And then you're not even

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Speaker 1: talking about the intangible value.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how that's going to be different with

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Speaker 1: every team. That's one thing I'm curious about. And then

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Speaker 1: the other thing is what is what makes more sense?

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Speaker 1: And these are things that I'll you know, we'll dig

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Speaker 1: into over the next over the summer, over the spring

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Speaker 1: and everything. But does it make sense to extend him

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Speaker 1: when you don't know what the CBA is or does

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Speaker 1: it make more sense to let him take that risk

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Speaker 1: and then you know what the CBA is and now

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Speaker 1: how he fits into the puzzle financially.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I just don't know. These are things

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Speaker 3: that they have to weigh.

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Speaker 1: That they they'll you know, they have people the VP

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Speaker 1: of common Sense and the VP of Nerdery and all

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Speaker 1: this stuff. I just think it's these are the questions

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Speaker 1: that face them because now I think.

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Speaker 3: We need to move past the trade stuff.

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Speaker 1: I really do think it we feel safe in doing that,

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Speaker 1: move past the trade talk.

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Speaker 3: What is next for Niko Horner? Win? A World Series

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty six is the first goal? Right?

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Speaker 1: And then what about extension talk? Is that something they're

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Speaker 1: gonna do in the spring? It does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: What are the comps? Those are the things that I like, like,

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Speaker 1: I think we need to do. Are the next steps

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Speaker 1: for us, for the Cubs, for everyone to kind of

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Speaker 1: figure out? But I also think trade talk isn't off

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Speaker 1: the table for the Cubs in general. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: Matt Shaw. When let's take a quick break and talk

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Speaker 1: about Matt Shaw.

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Speaker 5: So Stephen, the holidays have come and gone, and while

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Speaker 5: it was great to spend time with family and friends

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Speaker 5: and to enjoy all the great times, you probably overspent

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Speaker 5: a little bit, as you do every year. But that

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Speaker 5: means with January here you may be looking at a

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Speaker 5: way to cut costs.

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Speaker 4: Yep, this time of the yearbody's looking to cut their budget.

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Speaker 4: Everybody's looking to save money. Somewhere Mobile and their incredible

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Speaker 4: deals are a great place.

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Speaker 1: It seemed like matt Shaw was a little surprised by

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Speaker 1: the Alex Bregman edition. I believe he was sitting I

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Speaker 1: can't remember if he said he was sitting and watching

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Speaker 1: the football game.

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Speaker 3: Was he was with his wife?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 1: He was with his wife and she got the alert

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Speaker 1: that Alex Bregman had been signed by the Cubs. Told

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Speaker 1: him and he was like, and at least what he

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Speaker 1: told us was like, he's like, huh, I wonder how

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Speaker 1: that what that means for me? I you know, that's

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Speaker 1: everyone handles it differently. Who knows exactly how it happened

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Speaker 1: went down? If that's exactly what happened, I'm a little

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Speaker 1: surprised he hadn't asked, like, hey, I'm hearing these Alex

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Speaker 1: Bregman rumors, like what would happen? Like at least contemplate

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Speaker 1: that a little bit. There must someone, even if you're

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Speaker 1: the type that doesn't check the news or check the rumors,

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Speaker 1: someone texts you. Someone does. Like that's just how it

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Speaker 1: always works. And these guys always say it, I don't

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Speaker 1: read the news, but people text me. You know, people

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Speaker 1: take screenshots of m willb trade rumors and send it

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Speaker 1: to you know, their their brother or their you know,

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Speaker 1: nephew or whatever it is, and and and that's how

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Speaker 1: you hear about it, even if you're not the type

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Speaker 1: to read it. But uh, you know, whether it came

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Speaker 1: to him as a complete surprise or not, like he's

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Speaker 1: he's now, you know, Matt Shaw super utility man for now,

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of interesting what what his future holds.

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Speaker 1: I think he'd be a really valuable super utility guy.

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Speaker 1: I think he's got a ton of potential. But I

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Speaker 1: also don't feel secure in saying he's one hundred percent

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Speaker 1: going to be on this team come you know, opening day.

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Speaker 2: It sure seemed like Nico was aware or made aware

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Speaker 2: when the trade rumors started to surface again in media reports,

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Speaker 2: including our own on the Athletic during the winter meetings.

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Speaker 4: And so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Shaw's I guess a little different in

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Speaker 2: that regard, you know. He it was fortunate for him

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Speaker 2: that Alex Bregman did not sign with the Cubs last

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Speaker 2: spring training, and that created an opportunity for him, and

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Speaker 2: he eventually took hold of that job. Obviously, he needed

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Speaker 2: a detour back to Iowa. I just think we're going

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Speaker 2: to until like they get to Arizona. Jed does his

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Speaker 2: press conference and says something like, you know, this is

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Speaker 2: kind of our team.

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Speaker 4: I think the Shaw rumors are not going to go away.

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Speaker 2: I think his value from an analytic perspective, and you

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Speaker 2: just look at a pre arbitration player, how long he's

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Speaker 2: under club control, the versatility, the fact that he can

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Speaker 2: play on the dirt, which is his preference. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this guy could be an everyday third baseman on most

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Speaker 2: teams willing to give him that sort of run.

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Speaker 4: And so you know, I'm with you.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure how much to or Brits some of

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Speaker 2: his stuff at a Cubs convention camera because I'm with you, Like,

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a little odd, but.

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Speaker 4: You know, maybe maybe we're reading a little bit too

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Speaker 4: much into it.

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Speaker 2: But like there's kind of no mistaking that the Cubs

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Speaker 2: are still in listening mode here and they don't think

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Speaker 2: they're done with their rosters.

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Speaker 4: So when you have that in play, you just you

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Speaker 4: just can't dismiss it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think Counsel had a quote that said he you

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Speaker 1: don't have got to keep it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Uh.

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Speaker 3: Jed was talking.

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Speaker 1: It was either with us or when he was on

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Speaker 1: the stage talk like talking to Boog. There was something

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Speaker 1: about like you're you're always trying to improve. We're not

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Speaker 1: done yet, Crank Kenny, I think said that on the radio.

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Speaker 1: Nobody sounds like they're ready to, you know, close the

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Speaker 1: door on any moves, whether that's filling out the bench,

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Speaker 1: adding non roster invites. They you know, they they'll continue

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Speaker 1: to do stuff like that or something bigger. And you

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Speaker 1: cannot rule out a big trade for match Shaw.

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Speaker 3: You're right.

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Speaker 1: I think he's valuable in an analytic sense, and then

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Speaker 1: numbers wise, like you know, the overall offensive numbers weren't great,

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Speaker 1: but he had a great second half.

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Speaker 3: He's a rookie.

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Speaker 1: He was a rookie, he was a goal glove finalist,

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Speaker 1: showed that he was improving over the course of the year.

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Speaker 1: Former top thirty prospect consensus, So like these are like,

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Speaker 1: he's got a lot of the pedigree that says, no,

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Speaker 1: you know, this guy's really valuable. Now does that get

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Speaker 1: you a superstar in return straight up or something like that,

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Speaker 1: or does it get you some really good prospects? You know,

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Speaker 1: what are the Cubs looking for? What do they want?

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Speaker 1: Maybe it makes the most sense to keep match Shaw.

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Speaker 1: I think the other question is, okay, you keep him,

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Speaker 1: how do you fit him into this role.

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Speaker 3: Uh, that was a question I had.

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Speaker 1: We got an answer almost immediately during the Bregmann presser

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Speaker 1: when we talked to Jed afterwards.

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Speaker 3: He's going to be playing the outfield.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And and you were right you you brought it up.

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Speaker 1: And and the hobby comp like there's a way to

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Speaker 1: make this work. You just kind of put them all

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Speaker 1: over the place.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: You ask Niko Horner, you asked Dansby Swanson if they

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Speaker 1: want days off, you may get a pretty dirty look.

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Speaker 1: I felt like when Nko was asked that he was

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Speaker 1: he was ready to fight.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And Dansby laughed. It was like, the cowns will put

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Speaker 1: you up. They don't want days off. Guess what they're

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Speaker 1: gonna get days off because Greg Council believes in rest.

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Speaker 1: He believes in giving these guys days off. There are

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Speaker 1: arguments to be made that some of these guys in

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Speaker 1: previous seasons have gotten worn down. You just need to

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Speaker 1: you need to give him some rest. And if he's

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Speaker 1: going to play the corner outfield spots too. Mattrow was

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Speaker 1: telling us that the last time he played daily in

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Speaker 1: in the outfield, he was playing center field. He is

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Speaker 1: an athletic guy, He's he's a good ballplayer. He's he

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Speaker 1: proved how quickly he can adjust to a really difficult

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Speaker 1: position at third base. Maybe he can play all over

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Speaker 1: really and and then if he starts to hit, then

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Speaker 1: you have someone that can also occasionally d h. He

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Speaker 1: has the potential to be really valuable for this team.

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Speaker 1: But if an offer comes along, it's it's it's a

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Speaker 1: It's a lesser situation than Nico in the sense that

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's impossible to meet the asking price here,

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Speaker 1: or almost impossible to meet the asking price here, But

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Speaker 1: it would be a nice it would be a nice

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Speaker 1: return for Matchhaw. So you have to weigh that. You

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Speaker 1: have to keep that in mind. What do the Cubs

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Speaker 1: consider their exact needs. You know, that's not totally clear,

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Speaker 1: but you know, whether it's trading match are keeping him.

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Speaker 3: I think there's value to both situations.

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Speaker 1: But I believe that Craig Council feels very comfortable with

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Speaker 1: the idea of using him as a super utility guy,

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Speaker 1: and probably would be able is one of you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the managers you'd want to be able to

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Speaker 1: kind of lead that and and do it properly. And

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Speaker 1: and I think this is a smaller thing, and it's

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Speaker 1: just something I think it's worth mentioning.

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Speaker 3: But a lot of times.

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Speaker 1: When you have guys like this and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: are they going to get annoyed being in this role?

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Speaker 1: Are they going to not be able to handle this role?

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Speaker 1: Are they going to cause problems? There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: leaders in that clubhouse and Craig Council has a lot

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Speaker 1: of respect in that clubhouse for those two reasons primarily.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think Matt Shaw's the type that was

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Speaker 1: going that would do that. He's he's pretty young, Like

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Speaker 1: it's pretty hard to be done, but he was handed.

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Speaker 2: A job last year contender, like yeah, learning a new

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Speaker 2: position on the fly. Like, I think he's been given

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Speaker 2: a lot of latitude and opportunity. And we'll say this,

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Speaker 2: what he did last year learning how to play third

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Speaker 2: base was very impressive. And I do think when the

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Speaker 2: Cup say, hey, this guy can play all over, I

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Speaker 2: believe it. I don't think that's just hype or sort

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Speaker 2: of bluffing here. Like I don't playing center field as

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Speaker 2: petek ro Armstrong's replacement on every day basis may be difficult,

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Speaker 2: but moving around the outfield, playing second, playing third, I

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Speaker 2: could totally see that happening. And look you have Jed

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Speaker 2: and Counsel both at different points saying we were extremely

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Speaker 2: fortunate last year to stay as healthy.

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Speaker 4: As we did.

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Speaker 2: Really overall, but particularly on the position player side. We'll

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Speaker 2: take out Justin Steele's elbow injury.

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Speaker 4: Shoda had something.

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Speaker 2: But otherwise it was a pretty good group. And all

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Speaker 2: it takes is Pete running into a brick wall at Wrigley. Sayah,

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Speaker 2: the super aggressive swing feels something in his oblique concussions, hamstrings,

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Speaker 2: like all this stuff. I mean, guys who are getting

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Speaker 2: into their thirties thinking of Bregman and Swanson, like is

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Speaker 2: playing one hundred and sixty ish games realistic? They will say, yes,

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Speaker 2: you know, Nico has turned around kind of the per perception,

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Speaker 2: but he was known as sort of an injury prong

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Speaker 2: player earlier in his career, and it took some trial

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Speaker 2: and error to sort of, it seemed like, to get

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Speaker 2: to the right sort of body type, weight maintenance program

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Speaker 2: to where he can be that everyday gold glove guy.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I was in the camp last offseason

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Speaker 2: that I thought, you keep Cody Bellen and you're just

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Speaker 2: have coverage everywhere you mix a match. Obviously, financially, Baseball

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Speaker 2: Operations was not allowed to make that happen.

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Speaker 4: So as tempting as it may be to.

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Speaker 2: Trade Shaw to get some young pitching or whatever sort

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Speaker 2: of you know, holes they see and in their organization,

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Speaker 2: I still think you trade him and something bad probably

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Speaker 2: happens injury wise, and and you're scrambling.

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Speaker 4: And Counsel made that point like we don't have enough,

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Speaker 4: like he was.

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Speaker 2: I would have liked to get his thoughts, you know,

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Speaker 2: a little more on that, but he's saying. He seemed

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Speaker 2: to go there pretty quick, you know, like sometimes he

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Speaker 2: just answers whatever he wants to say, or like he'll

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Speaker 2: sort of dismiss the question.

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Speaker 4: But that was a like have you seen the roster?

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Speaker 4: We don't have enough?

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Speaker 2: Like that was basically, you know, it was very quickly

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Speaker 2: into his first media session since the Winter meetings. You know,

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Speaker 2: they just signed Alex Bregman, and it's like, you know,

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Speaker 2: the city's alive for the Bears and the tenure in

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Speaker 2: the World Series team, and councilors just like I have

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Speaker 2: you've seen the roster?

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Speaker 4: We don't have enough. So that's what I imagine.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of the operating philosophy right now in the

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Speaker 2: front office.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they can use some outfield depth. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can say Matt Shaw's outfield depth, but he hasn't played.

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Speaker 3: There big leagues. He hasn't played there in the minors.

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Speaker 1: You can say Kevin al Contra's outfield depth. Sure, he's

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Speaker 1: really talented, but unproven player. So like, those are risky

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Speaker 1: depth pieces because you don't know what type of outfielder

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Speaker 1: Match Shaw is and you really don't know what type

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Speaker 1: of major league player Kevin al Contra is. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: keep adding depth, keep looking to improve this roster. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's what they did in twenty sixteen and it led

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Speaker 1: to obvious success.

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Speaker 3: I think that should be the goal here.

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Speaker 1: You know, we don't need to you don't need to

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Speaker 1: be doom and gloom and assume Thegers are inevitable and

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Speaker 1: just going to win the World Series. This is a

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Speaker 1: real contender. Keep improving and see what happens. And I

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Speaker 1: think they have a chance to make real noise. Uh,

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Speaker 1: first time in a while where you feel pretty confident

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Speaker 1: saying that coming into the season and you just keep

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Speaker 1: adding to it. I think Council is absolutely right. All right,

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Speaker 1: we'll be back later this week with another episode. Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for listening to everyone. This is Northside Territory.

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Speaker 1: Make sure to rate, review, subscribe, subscribe to the YouTube channel,

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Speaker 1: and subscribe to The Athletic where Patrick and I are

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Speaker 1: on top of all things cubs. Thanks for listening everyone.

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Speaker 3: You God