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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan fending for yourself. How

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Speaker 1: many kids does that apply to in this world we

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Speaker 1: live in now? I know one that it did, in fact,

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Speaker 1: applied to Tylie Ryan. Tally was a young lady. She

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Speaker 1: had seen the life that her mother had lived. Five husbands,

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Speaker 1: multiple moves to settlement. Tillie had essentially become the anchor

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Speaker 1: in her family, certainly as that applied to her little brother.

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Speaker 1: To ju Valo always envisioned them clinging to one another.

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Speaker 1: There's that image where they're hugging each other very tightly,

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Speaker 1: and I would think that in their world that's really

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Speaker 1: all they had to hold on to for stability was

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Speaker 1: one another. But just like with JJ, we found out

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Speaker 1: a lot of disturbing news about how Tyley met her

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Speaker 1: end because we've heard from the forensic pathologists that did

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Speaker 1: her examination. In this episode, we're going to break it down,

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Speaker 1: We're going to discuss it, the horror of Tyley's death.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. There

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Speaker 1: is no satisfaction. And my listeners know how much I

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Speaker 1: hate the word closure because it doesn't exist, particularly when

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Speaker 1: it comes to death. You get answers, and some answers

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Speaker 1: are just wanting their unsatisfying, I think because you haven't

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Speaker 1: quite filled in all of the blanks, and unfortunately, with

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Speaker 1: Tyler Ryan's death, that's that's kind of the situation we

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Speaker 1: find ourselves in right now. But what I can say

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Speaker 1: is that her death was horrific. Dave Mac, would you

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Speaker 1: agree with that assessment?

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Speaker 2: On what we know about Tyler Ryan and her passing

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Speaker 2: is it's frustrating and sad, I say that not lightly frustrating,

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Speaker 2: because we don't still to this moment, know all the

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Speaker 2: things you would normally know about somebody who died when

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Speaker 2: you have remains to examine. I say remains, because there

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Speaker 2: was not a body to examine as one would expect

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Speaker 2: when you say body. What happened to Tyler Ryan? And

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Speaker 2: we don't even know exactly when. What we do know

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Speaker 2: is that Tyler Ryan was last seen September eighth in

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Speaker 2: Yellowstone Park in a picture with her mother, her little

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Speaker 2: brother JJ, and her uncle Alex Cox, who was Lori

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Speaker 2: Valo's brother. We have that picture and we have some

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Speaker 2: other information that we know she was alive with the

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Speaker 2: family September the eighth, and then we know she's missing

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Speaker 2: until June ninth of twenty twenty. What took place in

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Speaker 2: the infram is where people like you come in. How

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Speaker 2: did they find Tyler Ryan.

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Speaker 1: I think that to say buried is inaccurate. I prefer

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Speaker 1: the term discarded with an attempt to cover up burial.

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Speaker 1: To me, when you say that, it goes to honoring,

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Dave. When we honor someone,

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Speaker 1: we bury them. She was not this young woman. She's

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Speaker 1: in that weird space in time. She's seventeen.

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Speaker 2: Actually she died too. She died two weeks before her

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Speaker 2: seventeenth birthday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, right on the cusp, and you know,

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Speaker 1: the world's about to open up to her, and unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: I think in a very bad way, it had already

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Speaker 1: opened up to her. She had seen things that I

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Speaker 1: think that by virtue the way that her mother chose

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Speaker 1: to live her life, she had been exposed to just

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Speaker 1: the dissettlement in and of itself that she had had

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Speaker 1: to endure for all those years.

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Speaker 2: It's very important to note two things really quickly. One,

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Speaker 2: when we did a program about JJ Vallo and how

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Speaker 2: his body was recovered, and his body was recovered and

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Speaker 2: if you haven't listened to it. I encourage you to

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Speaker 2: do so. But what happened with Tyler Ryan totally different.

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Speaker 2: It was like two totally separate things, not connected by anything.

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Speaker 2: And you mentioned that Tyler had been through a lot

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Speaker 2: with her mother, Well, her mother was married five times.

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Speaker 2: When you watch the interview of Tyler Ryan with police

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Speaker 2: after Joe, after Charles Vallo was murdered by Alex Cox,

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Speaker 2: watched that interview and in the times after, she seems unaffected.

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Speaker 2: Tyler Ryan seemed totally unaffected. She actually was emulating what

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Speaker 2: her mother was doing. They were joking, talking like it

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Speaker 2: was just another day. She's copying her mother and no emotion, giggling, laughing,

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Speaker 2: moving on. So, Tylie Ryan was so impacted by the

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Speaker 2: lifestyle that her mother led that her demise and the

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Speaker 2: way she was discarded shows something a total disconnect from

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Speaker 2: life and love.

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Speaker 1: That's rooted I think in something else, that touch of reality,

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Speaker 1: that dose of reality in her short life. It was

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Speaker 1: read into the record and trial, by the way, Laurie

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Speaker 1: Valo's trial is actually going on right now as we're

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Speaker 1: laying this down. It came out in testimony on the

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Speaker 1: part of the forensic pathologist that he had had a

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Speaker 1: chance to review Tillie's medical records, and I was kind

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Speaker 1: of surprised by this. She had lived a very short life,

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Speaker 1: but in that time she had been diagnosed with anxiety,

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Speaker 1: she had gone through having OVERI insist, and get this,

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Speaker 1: she had actually suffered pancreatitis in that short life. Pancreatitis

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Speaker 1: is a miserable condition and over insists or certainly unpleasant

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Speaker 1: as well. And then you have this anxiety. You know what,

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Speaker 1: seventeen years old? Wash she have anxiety? I'm a firm believer.

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Speaker 1: You know that many times illnesses manifest themself as a

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Speaker 1: result of stressors in your life and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: And you take its measure by thinking that this person

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Speaker 1: that she's attached to at the hip, her mother has

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Speaker 1: literally drugged this child through a keyhole her entire life,

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Speaker 1: through all these various relationships and situations that they've been in.

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Speaker 1: You'll never convince me, you know, you're not going to

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Speaker 1: have things manifest manifest in your life physically.

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Speaker 2: What is pancreatitis exactly, Joe, I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's an inflammation of the pancreas and it's deadly actually,

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Speaker 1: I mean it is it's super deadly and many times

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Speaker 1: it's associated with things like elevated cholesterol. Not the she was,

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Speaker 1: but you know, you'll have people that have problems with

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Speaker 1: chronic alcoholism develop pancreatitis. There's any number of reasons why

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Speaker 1: you can develop it, but it is an infection of

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Speaker 1: the pancreas, very painful. I mean, it comes along with

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Speaker 1: like horrible abnominal pain, high fever, It can give systemic as,

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Speaker 1: It impacts your the totality of your system, the way

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Speaker 1: your pancreas functions. Remember the pancreas, you know, controls insulin

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Speaker 1: in your body. Just a horrible set of circumstances. And

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Speaker 1: you couple that with everything that she was having to endure,

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Speaker 1: you know, right right before she was murdered. She's not

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Speaker 1: yet seventeen, and she's dealing with the homicide of her

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Speaker 1: stepfather at the hand of her uncle.

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Speaker 2: And please add in there, Joe, that Tyler Ryan was

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Speaker 2: at home and knew the truth of what had transpired.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned stress and worry, and that can lead to

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Speaker 2: some of these things that she experiencing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and here's another little nugget kind of picked up

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Speaker 1: on friends of mind that are in the media. That

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Speaker 1: have been following kind of the family dynamic of this

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Speaker 1: more so than I have try to stick more with

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Speaker 1: the forensics, even though in this case is really hard,

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Speaker 1: as you can see, to kind of hide my feelings

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Speaker 1: relative to it. But in this particular case, from what

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing, she would not stand for some of the

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Speaker 1: stuff that her mother would engage in. She would be

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Speaker 1: combative with her, She would make comments to her. She

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Speaker 1: was not just going to go along with the mom

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Speaker 1: because mom said that this is what she could do.

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Speaker 1: You know, She's not another man coming into her mother's

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Speaker 1: life that her mother can manipulate with her beauty and

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Speaker 1: sex appeal and whatever else that she's you know, trying

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Speaker 1: to sell to whomever it's coming down the track. Kyleie

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Speaker 1: has seen behind the curtain, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: And you know what she showed that to people that

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Speaker 2: came into Laurie's life. For instance, that Lorie Valo's best

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Speaker 2: friend was Melanie Gibb and Melanie Gibb, it was brought

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Speaker 2: up in trial that Tyler Ryan didn't particularly care for

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Speaker 2: Melanie Gibb. So I think that while she has a

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Speaker 2: mother that is dragging her that you mentioned dragging through

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Speaker 2: a keyhole. I think that's a great that's a great

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Speaker 2: identifier there, but that maybe Tilly didn't overreact with her mother,

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Speaker 2: but it manifested itself in the way that Tyley looked

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Speaker 2: at Lourie's friends that were also part of this crazy

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Speaker 2: world that Titley wasn't buying into, which is why Tyler

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Speaker 2: had to go. Tilli wasn't on board.

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Speaker 1: They had made an assessment that she's one of these

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Speaker 1: dark spirits, or however they were framing it, you know,

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Speaker 1: as a justification for these things. But what we do

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Speaker 1: know this new space that her mother had chosen to

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Speaker 1: occupy or was planning on occupying, this place that's out

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Speaker 1: in this beautiful area of the country out there in

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Speaker 1: the Eastern I hope it ended in sheer horror and

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Speaker 1: it actually wound up being Tyler's resting place after she

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Speaker 1: apparently murdered. If you're spending time out in rural America,

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Speaker 1: if you're out on a farm, I don't know of

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Speaker 1: any farm that doesn't have a place where you burn

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Speaker 1: brush down. Here in South they called a burn pile

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Speaker 1: where you can take limbs and things that break off

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Speaker 1: of trees and whatnot, and you can you save it

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Speaker 1: up and kind of gather it and maybe you'll have

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Speaker 1: a pondfire, and maybe you'll just stand out there and

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Speaker 1: burn it and make sure it doesn't spread, and then

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Speaker 1: you walk away and everything is said and done. They

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Speaker 1: had a place like this. There was this location that

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Speaker 1: Chad Dave Bell had, you know, on the backside of

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Speaker 1: his property, adjacent to this big building which I've always

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Speaker 1: suspected had something to do with the deaths of these children.

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Speaker 1: That was just out back of it where it looked

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Speaker 1: more like a fir ring actually, but it was also

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Speaker 1: known as a location where Chad da Bell and his

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Speaker 1: wife Tammy would bear pets. And as it turned out,

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Speaker 1: this is where Tyler Ryan's body was found.

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Speaker 2: Duar, and you mentioned that it was a burn pile,

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Speaker 2: you know, a burn pile you burned trash and rubbish.

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Speaker 2: But also in that same ring, as you mentioned, there

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Speaker 2: were benches around there where that family roasted in marshmallows,

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Speaker 2: having moores, and they chose that location, the pet cemetery location,

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Speaker 2: to actually dispose discard the body of Tiller Ryan. I

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Speaker 2: don't know how that impacted the investigation, but I'm really curious, Joe,

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Speaker 2: when you start digging around something like this, and you

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Speaker 2: have what you know is the pet cemetery area, and

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Speaker 2: you have obviously fire. What are you finding as an

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Speaker 2: investigator as you start looking for remains.

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Speaker 1: Throw a word out to you, stratification. I don't mean

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Speaker 1: that in a sociological standpoint. I'm talking about from a

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Speaker 1: geological standpoint. We have STRATAI relative to the ground where

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Speaker 1: you have various layers of earth, and this would have

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Speaker 1: been stratification in the sense of recent. When I say recent,

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Speaker 1: I'm not talking at one hundreds and thousands of years.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about in the recent history where you do

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Speaker 1: this layering, if you will, of things. So for every

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Speaker 1: bit of wood that you burned, are other items that

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Speaker 1: you're trying to dispose of by fire. It burns down,

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Speaker 1: it settles, right, and then just imagine that progressively becomes

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Speaker 1: more compressed over period times. You burn more items, you

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Speaker 1: throw more stuff in. You're getting this strata of all

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Speaker 1: of these elements that have been burned down and rendered

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Speaker 1: down over the years, and where they found highly these remains.

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Speaker 1: This earth would have been probably a bit more loose,

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Speaker 1: if you will, you know it had been. The earth

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Speaker 1: was probably turned more regularly with JJ's remains. When they

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Speaker 1: went out to that retention pond or dried up pond

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Speaker 1: or whatever that area is, whatever they're calling it where

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Speaker 1: his remains were found, that earth had not been turned

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Speaker 1: beautiful green grass all around except for that one area.

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Speaker 1: But when you get to an area where you've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of debris that's just been settling there for

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Speaker 1: a while, and you might add to it, the soil

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Speaker 1: is going to look disrupted as well. So when you

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Speaker 1: show up as an investigator, you're going to have to

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Speaker 1: take a long, hard look. And it might not just

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Speaker 1: be your sight that you're relying on when you're looking around.

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Speaker 1: It might be smell. It very well might be smell

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Speaker 1: because you're sitting there and you're thinking, I'm smelling something

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Speaker 1: that is obviously organic, it is decomposed, and you catch

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Speaker 1: wind of it. And the reason that you might catch

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Speaker 1: wind of it, and this is absolutely horrible. But the

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Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist in this case, her assessment of Tiley's remains,

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Speaker 1: she said that there had been animal activity in her remains,

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Speaker 1: So she's referring to a small mammal. She doesn't know

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Speaker 1: what type of small mammal, but you know, you've got possums. Famously,

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Speaker 1: Chad Dave Bell had mentioned a large raccoon part of

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Speaker 1: this alibi he had put forward when he was socking

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Speaker 1: to his wife Tammy. Raccoons will feast as well. You

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Speaker 1: have any number of rodents that will do this. If

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Speaker 1: in fact, rodents or some small mammal hadn't made their

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Speaker 1: way to all the remain of tiling, that means that

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Speaker 1: they would have disrupted the soil. And when they disrupt

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Speaker 1: the soil, they open it up. They're not going to

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Speaker 1: go back and recover it, okay. So if you get

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Speaker 1: close enough, you begin to detect an odor, okay, and

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Speaker 1: if you look very carefully. That's why it's always very

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Speaker 1: important with the case like this to not just simply

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Speaker 1: have a forensic anthropologist consult on a case where they're

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Speaker 1: back at a laboratory. You physically need them out there.

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Speaker 1: They're amazing people. I've got a couple of friends that

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Speaker 1: are forensic anthropologists, and they are I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: say they're ocd by nature. They're the type of people

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Speaker 1: that can look at ground and they see things that

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Speaker 1: I might just regard as a rock and an't rock.

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Speaker 1: They have the ability to read ground the way that

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Speaker 1: nobody else can. And so if you physically have the

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Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist out there, which they actually did, they actually

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Speaker 1: at the scene, they can take a look at a

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Speaker 1: space of ground, even in a burn area, and they

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Speaker 1: can see lines of demarcation that might indicate where a

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Speaker 1: burial has taken place, kind of the margins or the borders,

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Speaker 1: if you will, of where the soil has been disrupted,

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Speaker 1: where they actually detect a pattern. And I've had this

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Speaker 1: happen a couple of times over my career where I

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Speaker 1: would be staring at something and I was staring at

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Speaker 1: what I should stare at, but I don't recognize it.

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Speaker 1: And then it takes the forensic anthropologists to say, okay,

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Speaker 1: do you see this deviation right here? This delineates the

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Speaker 1: borders and you start to stare at it, and it's

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Speaker 1: like you remember those old three D paintings that you

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Speaker 1: would look at, and they say you got to stare

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Speaker 1: at it long enough, and that it's kind of like that.

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Speaker 2: All of a sudden, you see the old woman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the image just kind of pops for you all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, and it's revelatory at that moment. And

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Speaker 1: once you identify it. The tough part really begins in

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Speaker 1: because you have to begin to lay your grid out.

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Speaker 1: And of course with Tyly, our body's not intact, So

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Speaker 1: you've got deposition of human remains that are spread out

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Speaker 1: over an area. I can't give you the exact dimensions,

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Speaker 1: but I know that they're spread out. They were not

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Speaker 1: recovered in one piece. And if this helps it all, Warring,

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Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist, actually made a statement. I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: paraphrasing right now, but you know he did make this

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Speaker 1: kind of offhanded remark in his testimony under direct when

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Speaker 1: he was being asked about the receipt of Tyler's remains

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Speaker 1: at the Ada County Corner's office. How do you receive remains?

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Speaker 1: He said, Well, normally I receive remains in a body bag,

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Speaker 1: So how did you receive these in multiple backs? Tyler

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Speaker 1: arrived at the Corner's office in Ada County, Idaho in pieces,

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Speaker 1: not one intact body. It's a partner when you work

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Speaker 1: together in forensics. There's multiple practices that forensic pathologists can

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Speaker 1: align themselves with in their forensic practice. First thing I

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Speaker 1: think that probably comes to mind is traditionally, like forensic

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Speaker 1: pathologist and forensic odentologists, a forensic dentist. Toxicology. Certainly, you're

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Speaker 1: always trying to decide what was going on with the

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Speaker 1: chemistry of the body, you know, what was going on inside.

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Speaker 1: There's some peripheral people sometimes will consult to radiologists, a

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Speaker 1: certainly neurologists that will examine brains. But I don't know

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Speaker 1: if any other marriage that exists in forensic practice that

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Speaker 1: is so kind of conjoined as that between the forensic

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Speaker 1: pathologist and the forensic anthropologist. They're kind of doing the

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Speaker 1: same thing, only the forensic anthropologist is really focused on

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Speaker 1: human skeletal remains and what they can learn from the bone.

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Speaker 1: Icians can point you in the right direction with it,

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Speaker 1: but these people, they spend years and years going through

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Speaker 1: their doctoral programs out there to learn how to read

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Speaker 1: bones and tell the story that's left behind, because sometimes

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Speaker 1: that's all that remains.

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Speaker 2: The autopsy for JJ took about four hours. The autopsy

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Speaker 2: for Tylee Ryan took him about a week. The body

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Speaker 2: was burned. Was there an odor that would be recognizable

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Speaker 2: as that of a decomposed individual even after being in

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Speaker 2: the elements buried in the dirt burned? What kind of

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Speaker 2: condition are we expecting out of this. Are you going

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Speaker 2: to smell it when you start digging? Are you going

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Speaker 2: to smell it when you're standing on top of the ground.

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Speaker 1: In the state in which they have mentioned that Tyley's

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Speaker 1: remains were in. Probably once you start, once you break

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Speaker 1: the earth, I mean really substantially break the earth. You know,

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Speaker 1: a cadaver dog would hit immediately, But for kind of

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Speaker 1: our spectrum our all factory spectrum as humans, it would

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Speaker 1: take turning the earth to really smell it. The decomposition

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Speaker 1: that you smell relative to a decaying or remain has

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Speaker 1: to do with soft tissue. Bones will have an odor

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Speaker 1: to them, but it's not as profound as is associated

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Speaker 1: with with soft tissue. And Tyley she still had and

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Speaker 1: this is horrible to say, but it's body bags. We're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about this. But she still had her

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Speaker 1: bowel was still present. Her heart, though compromise and kind

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Speaker 1: of shrunken I think probably as related to heat, was

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Speaker 1: still there. Her lungs were still there, so not everything

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Speaker 1: had been eradicated. In total. The forensic anthropologists doctor Christensen,

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Speaker 1: had stated that she had one hundred bones that were found,

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Speaker 1: and of course human bodies got over two hundred, so

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Speaker 1: some had been rendered down or just impossible to have recovered.

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Speaker 1: She had also mentioned that there was some type of

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Speaker 1: animal is out there, and animals will take away bones

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Speaker 1: as well. You begin to think about the bones of

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Speaker 1: the fingers and toes and the feet and all those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. But they found a goodly portion of

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Speaker 1: the remains that were left behind, but they had been burned.

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Speaker 1: That makes this kind of a daunting challenge. The forensic

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Speaker 1: anthropologists will do their assessment on the body, but it's

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day that the forensic pathologist

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Speaker 1: is the one that actually signs a death certificate. In

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Speaker 1: the list what the cause and manner of death is,

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Speaker 1: they classified Tiley's manner of death. Remember we have five.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about this before, but we have five and

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Speaker 1: they classified her manner of death as homicide. But the

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Speaker 1: cause is very interesting. Her cause of death is non

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Speaker 1: specific homicidal trauma. And you hear that many times when

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Speaker 1: you have these kind of fragmented bodies like this, you

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Speaker 1: know the cause of death was something that was at

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Speaker 1: the hand of another, and that's what defines a homicide

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Speaker 1: death at the hand of another, that's what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: when you actually use that term, it's going to be

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Speaker 1: violent traumatic. But beyond that, they can't say. It's like

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Speaker 1: saying gunshot wound, or strangulation or bludgeoning or stabbing or

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Speaker 1: some kind of blunt force trauma. The forensic pathologist said

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Speaker 1: he couldn't go any further than that. So this becomes

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Speaker 1: at that point in time in our world, in the

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Speaker 1: medical leal world, that this becomes a kind of a

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Speaker 1: circumstantial event, right, and you're assessing what you have remaining

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Speaker 1: from the physical remains, and then you're coupling that with

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Speaker 1: the circumstance in which the body is found. You've got

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Speaker 1: a body that there has been great effort that has

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Speaker 1: been put forth to render the body down by fire

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Speaker 1: and then cover it to obscure it from view. So

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Speaker 1: that in and of itself gives us an indication that

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Speaker 1: you've got something very very nefarious at work here, and

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Speaker 1: that's what the forensic pathologists had to work with and

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Speaker 1: that was their ruling.

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Speaker 2: But there was one part of this that kind of

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Speaker 2: stood out to me, and that is the identified heart,

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Speaker 2: both lungs, one kidney. You mentioned portions of bowel and liver,

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Speaker 2: but they found small fragments of brain matter. I know

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Speaker 2: obviously that they've got multiple bags. Her body didn't come

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Speaker 2: in intact, But are we talking about the total destruction

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Speaker 2: of a human being beyond It's enough that she's dead,

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Speaker 2: but now we're smashing her head. Is that what had

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Speaker 2: to happen for there to be brain matter?

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Speaker 1: Hard to say, And let me tell you why you've

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Speaker 1: got a real feel for this, Dave. When you have

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Speaker 1: thermal injuries, okay, and thermal injuries can it's not just

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Speaker 1: an anti mortem event. You can have thermal injuries to

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Speaker 1: a body post mortem. Many things happen dynamically. You can

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Speaker 1: get heat related fractures of the body, okay, of the

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Speaker 1: bone itself, so the bone will actually crack as a

379
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Speaker 1: result of exposure to heat as it's beginning to break down.

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Speaker 1: If you have the skull and they don't, they didn't

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Speaker 1: have the intact skull they talked about, Like the area

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Speaker 1: around the superorbal ridges, there's a few focal areas that remain.

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Speaker 1: You have to wonder did Tiley's skull fracture as a

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Speaker 1: result of a heat fracture being exposed to intense flame?

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Speaker 1: And then you've got brain matter that's leaching out, or

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Speaker 1: is this something that was maybe part of the causation

387
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Speaker 1: of her death and you had brain matter that was

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Speaker 1: extruding in some way at the time of death and

389
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 1: then they find it there. So that again is one

390
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Speaker 1: of these things that's very difficult to assess. And heat fractures,

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Speaker 1: anything that occurs in death, those fractures are going to

392
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Speaker 1: appear differently, particularly to the trained eye of a forensic anthropologist.

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Speaker 1: You know, where you have some kind of anti mortal

394
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Speaker 1: event where you'll have associated hemorrhage surrounding the points of

395
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Speaker 1: fracture and all that stuff. You don't have a lot

396
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Speaker 1: to go on here because a lot of the soft

397
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Speaker 1: tissue has been rendered down. And that's one of the

398
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Speaker 1: big things that we look to in forensic pathology is

399
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Speaker 1: if we have soft tissue that's going to give us

400
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: an indication of things like bruises or contusions and scratches, marks,

401
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: literature marks, you know, even gunshot ones. We've talked about

402
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: a range of fire on the show before. You know,

403
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Speaker 1: deposition of sood. Somebody's been cracked in the head with

404
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: a hammer, Perhaps you'll have markings on the outer soft

405
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: tissue to give me an indication of laceration and you

406
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: don't have that to deal with. And that's very non specific.

407
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 1: But my eye in this case is drawn to something

408
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 1: that the forensic anthropologists mentioned on the stand, and that

409
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Speaker 1: is that she, given her extensive training and background, she

410
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Speaker 1: saw striking evidence found on the pelvis. She opined from

411
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Speaker 1: the stand that what she saw was an attempt at dismemberment.

412
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Speaker 1: And we had heard this, we had heard this before,

413
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Speaker 1: but they were very non specific about this dismemberment. This

414
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Speaker 1: whole issue with dismemberment. My thought was, where are they

415
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 1: getting it from? Did you see saw marks on the bone.

416
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Speaker 1: That's not what she see, you know, according to doctor Christiansen,

417
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Speaker 1: she had seen great external force that was exerted to

418
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Speaker 1: the bones of the pelvis. It's very non specific, but

419
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Speaker 1: it's I hesitate to say crushing, but there's kind of

420
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Speaker 1: these like linear marks that gives you an idea of

421
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Speaker 1: a downward strike of something. So I mean, are we

422
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Speaker 1: talking about an axe? Are we talking about a pick axe?

423
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Speaker 1: Which I think has been mentioned before. In order to

424
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Speaker 1: break the body apart to try to render it down,

425
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: because you have to make a body manageable if you're

426
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Speaker 1: going to try to render it down and sometimes just

427
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: as it happened, she did the forends against pologist did

428
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Speaker 1: mention that this is not typical of a traditional quote

429
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Speaker 1: unquote dismemberment, where you would go to a joint perhaps

430
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: and saw through a joint break down the elements of

431
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: the body. That's not what was happening. That's not what

432
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: they were seeing. This is an odd place day. It's

433
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: very odd that you would have fractures in the pelvic

434
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: region of Tilly's body that are associated with some kind

435
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: of strike downward force that's occurring. It sounds almost half hearted,

436
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: just like the burning, because her body was not totally

437
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: rendered down. You know, it takes eighteen hundred degrees fahrenheit

438
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: in a crematory well of like constant fire. They're not

439
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: doing that here. They're using wood apparently in order to

440
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: fuel this. They did a very shoddy job because they

441
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: left behind all of these remnants of bone and organs

442
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: as well. They did not finish the job. It seems

443
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: like it was something that was done quite hastily.

444
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 2: In reality. I mean, could they determine that the markings

445
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 2: that showed they were trying to dismember occurred before or

446
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: after fire?

447
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: These are going to be post mortem injuries. And the

448
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: direct quote from doctor Christians is that there were five

449
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: areas of sharp force trauma to the left hip bone

450
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: and they were not the result of a disease process.

451
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: You know, this is kind of speculative, but you're thinking

452
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: about someone that's going to go to the trouble of

453
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: conducting a dismemberment. You have to have the right tools

454
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: for the job. And if you're talking about strikes with

455
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: some kind of weapon that's being swung downward, that sounds

456
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: like bad preparation. You're not thinking this process through. It's

457
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: certainly not somebody that would have had experience with butchering, say,

458
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: for instance, an animal like a deer. You know what

459
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: you need. You're going to have to have a hacksaw,

460
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: you're going to have to have sharp knife, all these

461
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: things that come along with that kind of experience. You're

462
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: using some type of item that's just a weapon or

463
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: tool of convenience. I'll be very interested to see what

464
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: the trace evidence people have to say about this case.

465
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: What did they find. All signs from me point to

466
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: that red barn out there. I've always thought that something

467
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: had happened, because if you're going to purpose yourself to

468
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: dismember or render down human remains. You have to have

469
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: a sequestered area to do that. Do you have to

470
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: have a location where you can do this under cover,

471
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: where nobody is going to take notice of it. You

472
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: have to have a certain amount of privacy. This is

473
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: not something that you're just going to do out in

474
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: the open in your backyard. This is something where you're

475
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 1: going to need cover for it.

476
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: Tylie was sixteen years old, two weeks away from her

477
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 2: seventeenth birthday. JJ just a little fella seven years old,

478
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 2: and they went missing. When we first started covering this case,

479
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: it was a missing child case. There are two children

480
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: missing and we don't know where they are. But her mom,

481
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: Tilly's mom, JJ's is in Hawaii and has married some guy.

482
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: So we were backpedaling trying to put these pieces together.

483
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: We already know that JJ and Tylei are both gone.

484
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: They're both passed away, which is what we're going to

485
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: actually talk about today. But the reality is it started

486
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: as a missing person's case with some very religious adults involved.

487
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: I've got a grandchild Jjy's age. It has been very

488
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: emotional to think of what happened to this boy. And

489
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: his older sister, and it was done at the hands

490
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: of people who were supposed to love and care for them.

491
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 2: I have so many questions, and I'm praying that you're

492
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: going to be able to give us the answers that

493
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: will at least help us understand the mechanics of what

494
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 2: took place.

495
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: I've been scratching my head over David. Let me say

496
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: this going into this conversation, I've been talking with some

497
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: of my friends that are on the ground in the courtroom,

498
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: who are physically there, in the news media, and to

499
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: a person, they described the reaction of people in the

500
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: courtroom and even members of the jury. There were people

501
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: they were so disgusted by what they saw that they

502
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: turned away. There were people wiping tears away. They couldn't

503
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: bear to look at it. As a matter of fact,

504
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: the judge at one point in time had to step

505
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: in and say, Okay, that's going to be the limit

506
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: of what we're going to be showing here, because it

507
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: was so so horrible what they were bearing witness to.

508
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: And I always have to go back to what is

509
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: expected of a jury member, maybe one of the most

510
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: honorable things you can do in this country. I know

511
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: people group about it and complain that they got called

512
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: away from work. But when you think about the privilege

513
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: that it is to sit on a jury and you're

514
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: common everyday folk, people like me, Dave. I haven't seen everything,

515
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: but I've seen a lot of stuff. It's tough, and

516
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: a case like this is even tougher, but just all

517
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: the more so for these jury members that are having

518
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: to take all of this in and view it in

519
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: balance and try to understand and try to take the

520
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: measure of it. I mean, really try to take the

521
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: measure of it. You mentioned your grand baby. I got

522
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: grand babies too. You sit there and you think about it,

523
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: and you think, oh my god. We can try to

524
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: understand precisely what happened. In leading us along this journey.

525
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: We had the benefit of having a man named doctor

526
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: Garth Warren who is actually with the Ada County Corner's

527
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: office in over in Boise. And just so folks know,

528
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: JJ and Tyley's remains were not examined in that location,

529
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: that remote location over in eastern Idaho. They were transported

530
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: to Aida County to that Corner's facility there. Folks might

531
00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: not understand, but if you don't have a facility particularly

532
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: that is manned by a forensic pathologist. You most of

533
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: these little counties will contract with a bigger county that does.

534
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: That's what happened here, So their remains had to be

535
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: transported literally all the way across the state. It's a

536
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: painstaking process.

537
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: To back up a minute, I mentioned early on, this

538
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: was at first a missing childcase. Two children were missing.

539
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: Their mom was not sharing information about their whereabouts. She

540
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: was telling all kinds of different stories to people who

541
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: knew her that they were with a friend, they were

542
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: with a relative, I'm keeping them safe. And what ended

543
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: up happening through the investigation of law enforcement and the FBI,

544
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: everybody being involved. That's how they were led to on

545
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: June ninth, twenty twenty finding two separate burial sites at

546
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: Chad day Bell's house. So we actually started the looking

547
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 2: for JJ and Tyley in November of twenty nineteen, when

548
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: their grandmother asked for a welfare check on JJ. Hadn't

549
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 2: talked to him in a couple of months, very concerned,

550
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 2: and that's where this story began for many of us.

551
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 2: So I said, we were backing up right at the beginning.

552
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 2: The bodies are recovered on June ninth of twenty twenty.

553
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 2: For you, Joseph Scott Morgan, what are some things you're

554
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 2: thinking about? What do you need to find as a

555
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 2: forensic person to determine how these people were killed and

556
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 2: why are they where they are.

557
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: It's not just what's beneath the surface day, it's what

558
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: the ground is going to tell you in that area,

559
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: particularly when you have a clandestine grave, and that's what

560
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: both of these cases would be considered. That's the way

561
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: we termine a clandestine grave. That means a location where

562
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: remains have been purposely buried in order to hide them.

563
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: There are certain changes that you look for externally on

564
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: the surface, for turned soil, all those sorts of things

565
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: that don't quite match up. And these are two distinct

566
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: locations where these children were found. You know, when we

567
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: think about highly, you know, a lot has been made

568
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: of the fact that her remains were found immediately adjacent

569
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: to what they referred to as a pet cemetery. Animals

570
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 1: were buried there that were associated with this familial group,

571
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: which we could go down that rabbit hole all day long.

572
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: When you begin to assess how the remains of your

573
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 1: precious daughter are treated and that you discard them amongst

574
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: the carcasses of dead animals, and of course there's a

575
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: burn pit there too. And what was really striking to

576
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: me when I first initially saw the aerial photography in

577
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: this case is I could see, before the ert the

578
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: evidence responsing from the FBI showed up, there was like

579
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: a ring around this area where they had. You know,

580
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,959
Speaker 1: you could tell that the family had at one point

581
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: time pulled up large wooden benches. They were like fell

582
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: trees that were kind of sliced down. You could sit

583
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 1: on them, and they'd created a ring. Eventually all those

584
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: are moved, but you can see the initial image of

585
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: this and it conjured up, you know, sitting around a

586
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 1: bonfire with your family playing the guitar, singing, making schmores

587
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: and all of these sorts of things. You know, that

588
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 1: kind of joyous environment, and then you marry that up

589
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: with this horrific finding when they began to try to

590
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: discern where she was, and her grave was not that

591
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: deep below the initial surface. As a matter of fact,

592
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: we find out that there's spent some animal activity around there.

593
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 1: But just to kind of frame this, when you see

594
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,720
Speaker 1: her location, you know that it's adjacent to where things

595
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: were burned, all right, maybe bonfires, maybe just trash off

596
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 1: of this farming area. You walk a distance over, there's

597
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: what appears to be a dried pond. It's like a

598
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: big defect in the ground. It almost looks like a crater,

599
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: but it's real green. It was real green in lush.

600
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: But there was one area where soil had been turned

601
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: and it's right on the edge, and that's where JJ's

602
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 1: remains were found. So he's in a completely different area.

603
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: It looks kind of very peaceful compared to where Tiley was,

604
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: where there was a lot of traffic. There was no

605
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: traffic in that area where JJ was found. Soil had

606
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: not been turned around the surrounding area. You could tell

607
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: there was not a lot of foot traffic excepting that

608
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: one location where he was deposited. And these two children

609
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: were treated completely different day, completely different, And you're really

610
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 1: learning a lot about how their bodies were handled, and

611
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: I think going along with that, you begin to learn

612
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: a lot about the people. And when it comes down

613
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: to JJ Valo, his body was I don't know, there's

614
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: really no other term to use other than cocooned. He

615
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: was cocooned. He was protected to a certain degree. He

616
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: certainly protected from the elements. You know, when you compare

617
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: how his mortal remains were treated compared to his sister,

618
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,959
Speaker 1: you've got a big difference here, huge difference for him.

619
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: His body, his little body, his little broken body was able,

620
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: I think, in this particular case to begin to tell

621
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,919
Speaker 1: a tale because it was so very intactive.

622
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: When you get to the scene and police have done

623
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 2: their investigation, they have gotten the search warrants, and they've

624
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: laid out how they came about to search this property.

625
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 2: The police don't know the exact place. I mean, they

626
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: have a really good idea. In this particular case, police

627
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: were watching Chad day Bell. He was on the property.

628
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: It was his property, and they were watching Chad as

629
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 2: they began working in that backyard. And the detective noticed

630
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: that Chad day Bell kept watching where they were looking

631
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 2: and kept following with his eyes looking at the same

632
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 2: spot like they haven't found him yet. They haven't found

633
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: him yet. They noticed where he was looking, and that

634
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: sent the detectives on where we need to dig right

635
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 2: here for JJ. They didn't know JJ versus highly at

636
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 2: that point, but that's how they actually figured out where

637
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,919
Speaker 2: to start. What is the process that they go into.

638
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 2: I can't imagine them pulling out big shovels and just

639
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 2: digging in deep.

640
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: No. No, First off, you have to document everything you

641
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: can with photography and videography before you ever put what

642
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: we call spade to dirt and turn any bit of

643
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: soil whatsoever. And even before the tools come out, you're

644
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: going to do what's referred to as gridding off an area.

645
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: And if you just imagine a grid coordinates only on

646
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: a smaller scale, and you make each one of the

647
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: little squares maybe a foot by a foot, and you

648
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: have several of these along the way, and you label these,

649
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: you're going into a specific grid, and that way you

650
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: can document everything that's contained within that grid, because you

651
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: don't know what you're going to find. So as you

652
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: take the soil out and place it into a bucket,

653
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: which is where it would have gone, and those buckets

654
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: are labeled, they sift through everything until you get down

655
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: to the body as it is. And in JJ's case,

656
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: I had mentioned the word cocooning, and he is wrapped.

657
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: He's wrapped in plastic bags. He certainly got a white

658
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: bag over his head. I can specifically imagine because I've

659
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: been in circumstances like this, you look down and you

660
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: begin to take the measure of what you have before you,

661
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: and you have a body what appears to be a

662
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: body that is covered in plastic. I've had them in

663
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,919
Speaker 1: shower curtains, tarps, this queen those sorts of things where

664
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: bodies are wrapped up like that and you don't know

665
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: what is inside. And so it was at that moment

666
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: when they got down to that point where they had

667
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: recovered all of the surrounding dirt. Because you don't know

668
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: what you're going to find in there, you have to

669
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: save all this stuff and sift through it. The investigator

670
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: then opened up the plastic bag, the outer black plastic

671
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: bag that JJ was wrapped in total, and determined that

672
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 1: he did, in fact have remains here.

673
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 2: When they made that slit in the bag. In the testimony,

674
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 2: they described brown hair and a crowning. I can't imagine

675
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 2: the feeling that comes over you when you see hair.

676
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 2: You know this is who you've been looking for. What

677
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 2: is that like? Does that not really impact these individuals

678
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: for the rest of their life with that trauma?

679
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: That doesn't right at the moment, because you're if you've

680
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: got your clinical hat on which you should to protect

681
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: you while you're there. There's certain things you just can't escape.

682
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: But there's a bit of relief too in a case

683
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: like this, because you know that you've been looking for

684
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 1: him and all those those sweet pictures that we see

685
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: of JJ all over the place. You know his hair

686
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: is like swept to one side, I mean, and it's

687
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 1: like parted on one side and kind of swept. He's

688
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: got long bangs, and you can get an ideas to

689
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: the color of his hair. And they knew that this

690
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: is they're getting into. You know, they're getting into the

691
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: arena where they're going to begin to narrow down at

692
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: least visual identification at this point in time. It's one

693
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: of the boxes that'll be ticked at that moment time.

694
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: But you listen, there's a real temptation that comes upon you.

695
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: You have to restrain yourself at a scene like this

696
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: day because you want to just go in and just

697
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: rip the bag open, right and just dig in and

698
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: see what. That's the worst thing you can do. That

699
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: is the absolutely worst thing that you can do, because

700
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: you're not in a controlled environment. First off, you've got

701
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: a dozen hands around you, You've got everybody peeking over

702
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: and wanting to see, and at just the baseline, you're

703
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: going to destroy it. For every cut that you make

704
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: in that bag, every compromise of a structural integrity of

705
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: that bag, you begin to potentially ruin any evidence that's

706
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: there because all this stuff is very fragile. Oh my god,

707
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: it's so fragile. So when you remove this body, you

708
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: have to live lifted up. And then what we generally

709
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: do is take a clean white sheet and that clean

710
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 1: white sheet is placed into an open body back. The

711
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: sheet is then folded around the body, which in Jaja's

712
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: case is contained is cocoon like we mentioned, and then

713
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: you zip the bag up and then you seal it

714
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: with a lock. That's where your chain of custody actually begins. Remember,

715
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: the body is the biggest piece of evidence you have.

716
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 1: So there are these little red locks and they actually

717
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: talked about them in court, little red locks that you

718
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 1: use that have numbers on them. And that thing is

719
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: not broken until it gets to the morgue and the forendsic.

720
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: Pathologists will look at it and they'll annotate it in

721
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: their notes. They say, I observed a red body bag

722
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: lock with a number. And then they take a pair

723
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: of scissors, and they say, and they'll including their report.

724
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: I cut this away myself, so they confirm this chain

725
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: of custody all along the way. You have to because

726
00:43:57,600 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 1: you know you've got a body, Dave, that's traveling over

727
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 1: one hundred miles, it's going to be in a vehicle

728
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: traveling down and people don't think about the logistics of this.

729
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: Does the driver stop along the way? Is the driver

730
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: with the body the entire time? Did they stop off

731
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: and get something to eat? Did they stop off at

732
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: a gas station? People think, oh, my god, they wouldn't

733
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: do that. Yes they do. I've actually known people that

734
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 1: have gone through drive through restaurants with bodies and cars.

735
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 1: And because of that, we've taken steps to document the

736
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: time that they leave, the mileage that's on the odometer,

737
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: What time did you arrive at the final destination? What

738
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 1: was your mileage there? Because everything has to be accounted

739
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: for and you want that, and it's a daunting task

740
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: just to remove the body from the scene and get

741
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: it downrange to where it has to be depositive, which

742
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: is going to be ad to County, Idaho.

743
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: We all have heard the stories of the odor these

744
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: bodies have been in the ground for a considerable amount

745
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 2: of time. Is there still after all these months? Is

746
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 2: there still an odor? Is it something that you can

747
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: smell once you start uncovering.

748
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,919
Speaker 1: Yes, and yes. The deeper you dig down, the more

749
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: profound the odor is. So in JJ's case, what I

750
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: am understanding from testimony and from my colleagues that have

751
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: seen the images, he was actually appreciable. His face was appreciable.

752
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 1: You could look at that image that they showed on

753
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: the screen and you could say that's JJ. He was intact. Now,

754
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 1: the color changes that come along with decomposition had been

755
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: occurring in death. Our bodies go from kind of a

756
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: modeled color to kind of a red, then kind of

757
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,240
Speaker 1: a greenish color than to black, and you could still

758
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 1: appreciate his features. His body was intact to the point

759
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 1: where you could look at his body and at least

760
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: visually get a general confirmation of identification. That's not valid

761
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: in my world. I like to have scientific confirmation, and

762
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: I just like to eyeball the body and say that is,

763
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: in fact this person. I don't even like families to

764
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: do that, because you never know what's going to happen.

765
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: There's always something along the way. So I like to

766
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: get scientific confirmation with this fingerprints or dental or certainly DNA.

767
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 1: The process is just beginning. Now. What happened, you know

768
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: when you got the remains soon more? Well, one of

769
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:18,919
Speaker 1: the things that was so glaring, you know, those pajamas

770
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: that JJ was last seen in as he's being born

771
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 1: by Alex Cox on his shoulder, he's wearing those pajamas day,

772
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: he's wearing those pajamas.

773
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 2: That was part of the testimony that came up with

774
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,240
Speaker 2: David Worwick, the boyfriend at the time of Lorie VALA's

775
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 2: best friend Melanie Gibb. He was there that weekend of

776
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 2: September twenty second, twenty third, and he's gave a description

777
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 2: of Alex Cox carrying JJ into the Valo apartment and

778
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 2: it was a very beautiful thing that he described JJ

779
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 2: with his head resting on Alex's shoulder and Alex taking

780
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 2: his nephew upstairs to the bedroom. He described the clothes,

781
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 2: even though he said I don't know exactly, I can't

782
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: remember one hundred percent, but I think he actually by

783
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 2: saying I think he was wearing, you know, And he

784
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 2: described the clothing that JJ was found in and that

785
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 2: if you were watching the trial, you're going or listening

786
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 2: to it, You're wondering, why is he saying this, Well,

787
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,720
Speaker 2: that's why they knew the answer.

788
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, they knew the answer. And I think that many

789
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: people had and there have been people that have suspected

790
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 1: that JJ may have been deceased when Alex was carrying

791
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 1: along that night. I don't believe that was the case.

792
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and reveal this right now because one

793
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: of the things that came up in testimony was that

794
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: when they were able to do toxicology, and remember they

795
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: didn't really have blood or urine to do talks with JJ.

796
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: So that means that you at autopsy, what you have

797
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: to do is you have to take organ samples. These

798
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 1: are going to be prefixed orgon samples, so you can't

799
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: like expose them to formulae, which is a type of formaldehyde.

800
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: You have to get them in the current state in

801
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: which you find them. And we've talked about this before,

802
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: but they're spun down at that moment in time to

803
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: liquefy them. Liver in particular, because liver is it's like

804
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: a gigantic filter in our body and it holds onto

805
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 1: a lot of the toxins and whatnot. But what they

806
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 1: did find in JJ's system was actually gama hydroxy butyrate

807
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 1: which GHB, which is a rape drug. Now people will say, ah,

808
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: that's like an aha moment, you know, light bulb goes off,

809
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 1: and people have thought that maybe he had been poisoned.

810
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: That's probably not the case because let me kind of

811
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: throw this out to you, Dave. In decomposition, GHB is

812
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: actually produced and it's very in the process of decomposition,

813
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: just like people don't realize, like chloroform is actually produced

814
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 1: in the decomposition process. The problem that doctor Warren had

815
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 1: in a case, and any physician has when you begin

816
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: to talk about talks and trying to understand what's on board,

817
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: is that when you're out down your timeline like this

818
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: from the sense of decomposition, you can't get a quantified

819
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: amount of something. You can qualify it. The machinery will

820
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: tell you that yet this is present, but to what

821
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: degree is at present? It's not really measurable. Because one

822
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 1: of the things any drug you can think of, cocaine,

823
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 1: for instance, cocaine actually if you look at it for

824
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: folks that are not familiar with lab results, is you know,

825
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: that cocaine actually has a therapeutic level because cocaine has

826
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: been used for medical purposes, so it has a therapeutic range.

827
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: So everything, all these numbers are variable. You can't put

828
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: that kind of fine point on a body that's decomposing.

829
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: So I think that it's significant that GHB was in

830
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: his system to a certain degree, but based on the

831
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: fact that there was so much decomposition, or that he

832
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: was downranged that far, you just can't quantify it, and

833
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 1: so I think some folks are probably they were hoping

834
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: that you would have that definitively there as a cause

835
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: of death for him. There have been many times in

836
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 1: my career where I was assisting with an autopsy and

837
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: I would look down at the remains that we were examining,

838
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: and you have kind of this moment where you begin

839
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: to understand what you're in the middle of. You have

840
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: this appreciation for how fragile this person's remains are that

841
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: are before you, and all of the evidence contained within

842
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: and without. I've hesitated before. I actually had my FORENDSIP

843
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: mythologist look at me. One time. We were doing it

844
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 1: autopsy on a lady that had been bound and gagged,

845
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: and I kind of froze for a moment, and he

846
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: looked at him and said, were you waiting for it?

847
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: Let's get on with this. I was trying to understand

848
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: or process in my mind what I needed to do

849
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: to remove these bindings from this lady's hands. She had

850
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 1: been tied with the rope because I didn't want to

851
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: screw anything up. I can imagine there's a hesitancy on

852
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 1: the part of the pro sector. The pathologist that's there

853
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,879
Speaker 1: and his assistants, his team. They want to make sure

854
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: that they have everything done and documented, X rays, photography, measurements,

855
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: all of that stuff has to be done before they

856
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 1: go in and begin to remove all these layers that

857
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: JJ's packaged in.

858
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 2: When it comes right down to it, you have taken

859
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 2: care of all of the business necessary to get JJ's

860
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 2: remains up out of the ground. He has been transported,

861
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 2: it's been documented, and now he's on the table and

862
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 2: so far they cut a small slit and that's it

863
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 2: right then put in the body bag with the white sheet.

864
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,720
Speaker 2: He's now on the table in a clinical setting. And

865
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: what happens now and what can you expect to find?

866
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: I can tell you what they've done. They've done full

867
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: body X rays on them because they don't know what

868
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: they're going to find when they open that bag. You

869
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 1: don't know what a cause of death is at this point.

870
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 1: Remember you you know I was talking about toxicology and whatnot.

871
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 1: That's weeks away. At this point, you have no idea

872
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: what you're looking at here, and so they'll do head

873
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: to two X rays. Before they do that, they'll turn

874
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: that around really quickly. They'll develop them and throw them

875
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: up on the lightboard, and they'll look for any kind

876
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: of what we refer to as radio opaque items that

877
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: are in there, like broken knife blades are certainly projectiles

878
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: from a firearm. You want to avoid as you're removing

879
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: this tape. You don't want to go ripping and roaring.

880
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: Here's a couple of reasons why. First off, with the tape,

881
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 1: if you begin to kind of cut it, then you're

882
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: compromising the integrity of that tape to dislodge it, okay,

883
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: just to facilitate opening the bag. So you don't know

884
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: what's going to be contained on either aspect of that tape,

885
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: like on the smooth surface that's on the backside, the

886
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: non tacky surface, and then on the underside which I

887
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: can get into that certainly, but then you think about

888
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 1: the bag itself. Well, these bags are non to a

889
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: certain degree. They're a non poorous surface. They're not exactly

890
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: like glass, but it's you're not dealing with wood like

891
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,439
Speaker 1: rough wood either. There are any number of times when

892
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 1: you can actually get fingerprints off of bags. Certainly the

893
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: interior heat and humidity play a role in this, but

894
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 1: you have to work from the perspective that anything that

895
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: is on the surface of that bag has the potential

896
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 1: of leaving something behind. And that could be a latent

897
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: print that's left behind, an oil or here's something, Dave

898
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 1: that not many people have heard of before. We have

899
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:02,760
Speaker 1: something to refer to as plastic prints, and a plastic

900
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: print is all of our listeners just imagine. And this

901
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 1: is something I do with my granddaughter. She loves Plato.

902
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: She loves Plato in hadn't got the silly putty yet,

903
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 1: but she loves Plato. Harper and I will be playing

904
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: with Plato. You know, if you press your finger into

905
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 1: the Plato and remove it, you can actually appreciate your fingerprint.

906
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: It's the same principle with duct tape, with that tacky

907
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: the glue the adhesive that's on there. Did you know

908
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: that you can actually press your finger and I urge anybody. Look,

909
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: if you've ever wrapped Christmas presents and you're in a

910
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: frenzy on Christmas Eve, you know how kind of wadded

911
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: that the tape gets and it'll get stuck to your

912
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: hand you're trying to get it off. Well, you're leaving

913
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: a plastic print. It's not oil dependent, okay, because that's

914
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 1: on smooth surfaces. You leave a print behind because and

915
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: it transfers from these fatty lipids that are on the

916
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 1: surface of your fingers. Okay, it's easily compromised. But when

917
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: you talk about leaving it behind in this adhesive that's resilient, dude,

918
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 1: it really is. And so you can actually image that.

919
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: There's any number of sprays that you can apply to

920
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 1: this that'll kind of capture it, and you can get

921
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: beautiful photographs of this stuff and they can be matched

922
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 1: up with people. So it's akin to almost like walking

923
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: through a minefield because you don't because you can't see

924
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 1: anything when you're doing it. So you have to assume

925
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: that every place you put your hand in order to

926
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,879
Speaker 1: remove tape or whatever the case might be that could

927
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 1: lead to a compromise.

928
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 2: Joe, let me ask you. You're observing the body or

929
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 2: you're observed you know the bag, okay, And you see tape,

930
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 2: you see bags, you see all of this overall, and

931
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,879
Speaker 2: you're making not just mental notes but physical notes as

932
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 2: you begin to unravel this, whether it's duct tape or bags.

933
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 2: What is that process for doc documenting and how do

934
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 2: you get to because your goal here is to find

935
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 2: out how this person died.

936
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:09,240
Speaker 1: Correct in the case of JJ Valow, if they've already

937
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: done X rays and they don't see any obvious signs

938
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: of bullets or knife blades that are broken off, or

939
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 1: fractures that might result from blunt force trauma like he

940
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,800
Speaker 1: had his skull crushed. As horrible as that is, then

941
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 1: you begin to think, well, is it strugg related or

942
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 1: is it something else? And you begin to exclude things,

943
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: and you know, doctor Warren's conclusion relative to JJ was

944
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:44,399
Speaker 1: that his remains demonstrated to them based upon how that

945
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 1: white bag, remember I mentioned a white bag earlier in

946
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: this episode was wrapped around his head with multiple links

947
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 1: of this tape, that his death resulted from suffocation. That's

948
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: a diagnosis of exclusion is What that means is that

949
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 1: you have gotten to this point you don't have any

950
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: other answers to what may have brought about his death.

951
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:10,720
Speaker 2: Are you suggesting that he was alive when they put

952
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 2: the bag on his head?

953
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I am. And you know how I know

954
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: that day I tell you I know it. He actually

955
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: had marks on his little fingers that would be consistent

956
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 1: with a struggle. These are anti mortem, which means, of course,

957
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: all my listeners you know, know this prior to death.

958
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 1: That's where these insults came from. He's got these marks

959
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: that are on his wrist. His hands were actually bound

960
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: with duct tape. They were overlapped on top of one another,

961
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: and multiple twists of this tape were facilitated like that.

962
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: So imagine, if you want to get a sense of

963
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: how horrific this is, if you have ever been in

964
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 1: a position where you've had to struggle to breathe, that's

965
00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: what this child's face with his brain is screaming, I

966
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: need oxygen, and it's at that point in time. Let

967
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: me paint this picture for you a little bit more

968
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: in depth. This is a child that had to wear

969
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: a diaper at his age. This child was totally dependent

970
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: upon the adults in his life to take care of it.

971
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 1: He had physical issues, he had developmental issues, and whoever

972
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: did this put a plastic bag over this baby's head

973
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: and turned that tape over and over and over again

974
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: and blocked his airway. He could not uptake oxygen at all,

975
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: and he's struggling. That primal brain is kicking in and

976
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 1: he's fighting. He's fighting. However, he could in order to

977
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 1: try to break the surface of the proverbial water just

978
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 1: to get a breath, and he couldn't. It wasn't there

979
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: any longer.

980
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 2: The one thing that a lot of us can hold

981
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 2: on to when we cover these stories is that the

982
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 2: victim didn't suffer. But now you're telling me the exact opposite.

983
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 2: And you were able to determine this by the way

984
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 2: his body was found in the ground, that not only

985
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 2: was he murdered by probably a loved one, but that

986
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 2: he suffered and knew who did it and what they

987
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 2: were doing when it was happening.

988
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: I'm saying that plainly. Yeah, he had an awareness, and

989
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 1: yes he did suffer. That conclusion is being drawn by

990
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: what doctor Warren had stated. There was evidence there that

991
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: he had struggled. He had fought for his life. People

992
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 1: use that term, they throw it around, to what degree

993
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: do you have the ability to fight for your life

994
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: if you're a small child and you've got the hands

995
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 1: of an adult or adults on you facilitating your death.

996
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 1: In order to honor both Tyler and JJ, we're going

997
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 1: to have two separate episodes detailing the information that we

998
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 1: have surrounding their deaths and the findings of the forensic

999
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: pathologists and the forensic anthropologists. Tune in Thursday for our

1000
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 1: follow up episode where we will be discussing the death

1001
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: of Tyler Ryan. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags.