1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: It it's another mass shooting. 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 2: There's no I don't, I don't don't. 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: I don't have a good way to start this episode. Yeah, 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: but welcome toda can happened here a podcast that is 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: also just about mass shootings now because. 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, great great world we live in with me is 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 2: Gah and Robert Hello. 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 3: Hello, Yeah, so a Nazi killed a whole bunch of 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 3: people again. 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, in case there's been another one, we are we 11 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 4: are talking about the specific mass shooting in Alan, Texas 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 4: with the guy who was covered in swastika tattoos that 13 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 4: certain people are claiming as a fed. 14 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, that happened on Sunday, May seventh. So I think 15 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 3: I think Mia has some details about what actually happened 16 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 3: to kind of put together, but for the majority that 17 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 3: we're actually going to be talking about people's reaction to this, 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 3: including some of the most influential people on the planet, 19 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 3: and the level of reality denial that is, it has 20 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 3: been bad before, it's just extra visible right now, and 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 3: it's visible to a degree that is pretty worrying, And 22 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 3: we felt it was worth talking about just because of 23 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 3: you know, whenever a reality fracture is big enough to 24 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 3: be like this noticeable that is always always an interesting 25 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 3: sign of where we are at as a culture. 26 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, so before we fully dive into that, 27 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: there's something that I do want to talk about like 28 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: briefly with this, which is that so like this is 29 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: you know, in the sort of mold of like white 30 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: premises killings. Is like, this is very very targeted and 31 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: non white people. So he shot one white guy who 32 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: was a security guard, and then he shot like three 33 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: Latino people and then for Asian people. 34 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: And I don't know, I wanted to just sort of. 35 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: Like remind people that anti Asian violence is still like 36 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: a thing because everyone seems to have forgotten about it. 37 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: And you know, this is like I mean, I think 38 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: if you exclude the if you exclude the three in 39 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: California that were like also committed by Asian people's is 40 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: like the fourth mass shooting in two years that's been 41 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: at least half the victims of an Asian It fucking sucks, 42 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: I you know, I mean, we've talked about Antiasan violence 43 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: a decent amount on this show. None of the things 44 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: we've ever talked about have gotten any better. The only 45 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: sort of actual instrumental results of any of this is 46 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: that like violence against Asian people gets used as a 47 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: rhetorical cudgel to justify killing black people, which is fucking abhorrent. 48 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: And yeah, I just I just wanted to get this 49 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: in because the media has collectively forgotten that that was 50 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: the whole thing, and no one really talks about the 51 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: shooting in that framing, and I think it's important to 52 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: do so at least for a little bit. 53 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: I think the. 54 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 3: Other thing to kind of just talk about it at 55 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 3: the top here. Latino white supremacists and Latino Nazis are 56 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 3: not They are not an uncommon thing. This is actually 57 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 3: quite common. Two of the most famous fascists in the 58 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 3: world right now, Nick Fuentes and Enrique Tario, are not white. 59 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: No. 60 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 4: I mean, just like, think about think about where I mean, 61 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 4: think about the fact that prior to World War Two, 62 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 4: Argentina spent a significant chunk of their defense budget bringing 63 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 4: over Nazis to train their military, which is a big 64 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 4: part of why so many Nazis escaped there via ratlines. 65 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 4: You know, we just did a series of episodes on 66 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 4: Alfredo Stressner, the fascist dictator of Paraguay who put up 67 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 4: and hid Joseph Mengola along with a bunch of other Nazis. 68 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 4: For a while, Mangola had citizenship in both Argentina and 69 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 4: in Paraguay. Like this is it's not uncommon. This is 70 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 4: not like a new thing. We're not It's not like 71 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 4: some sudden shift in the way that fascism works. 72 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 3: Even the shooter himself like posted memes about being a 73 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: Latino white supremacist, like it is a subculture big enough 74 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 3: that it has its own like meme of Vortex. So, 75 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 3: and the shooter was actively engaged in in said like 76 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 3: a medic culture. 77 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 4: No. And it's also worth noting that a lot of 78 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 4: the same things that we talk about when we talk 79 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 4: about Nazi mass shooter culture in the United States, the 80 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 4: fact that a lot of shootings are kind of incited 81 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 4: on eight chan and four chan and similar boards, this 82 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 4: happens in Latin America. Brazil in particular, has a website 83 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 4: called degola Chan that has spawned at least a couple 84 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 4: of shootings. In the last year, They've had several more 85 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 4: mass shootings that are political in nature, that are kind 86 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 4: of driven by online fascists. Like this is not the 87 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 4: only place that this happened. Serbia just had a couple 88 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 4: as well. But like what this guy's doing is very 89 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 4: much just as the christ shooting was very much something 90 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 4: that occurred within the broader envelope of a transnational accelerationist 91 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 4: fascist movement, you know, the Allen shooting, as far as 92 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 4: we can tell what the information we have available, seems 93 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 4: to fit very well into that schema. 94 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: Okay, we should talk about the shooter a bit. 95 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: So there's there's a sort of I don't know, there's 96 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: like a after every mass shooting, there's this sort of 97 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: like identification cycle thing that happens, where like a bunch 98 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: of musations use an organizations still try to figure out 99 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: who the shooter was. So I think, like the day after, 100 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: very very very like pretty soon after the shooting, there's 101 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: the New York Times runs an article that reveals that 102 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: the shooter has this like has an account on like 103 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: a kind of weird Russian social media site. And from 104 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: from that information, uh, Eric Toler, who's a bell researcher 105 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: at Belling Cat like tracks down the site and he 106 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: finds a bunch of wild stuff. He finds like, I mean, 107 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: obviously the shooters, like he finds it the shooters a Nazi. 108 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: He has like a swastika tattoo. He also has an 109 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: SS tattoo from the shooting. He's wearing like a right 110 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: wing Dusk squad patch like this, just like a whole 111 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: thing that the Proud Boys also do. It's like a 112 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: patch that says like rw D. 113 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, they sell RWDS patches. I mean, I think a 114 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 4: lot of it kind of comes out of some of 115 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 4: the discourse around Pinochet that goes back a few decades, 116 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 4: but at this point it's a much broader thing than that. 117 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 4: I've got a bunch of photos of Jeremy Berdarimo I 118 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 4: think is his name, who was one of the Proud Boys. 119 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 4: I believe he's the guy who got stabbed prior to 120 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 4: January sixth during one of the big riots in DC 121 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 4: after the twenty twenty election, but with the big RWDS 122 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 4: patch on his chest. And you can find like Tasitala Tozy, 123 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 4: who's an inveterate rioter with a Patriot prayer up in Portland, 124 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 4: would wear them all the time. They're and piece of 125 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 4: fascism merch. 126 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, and and this this and also 127 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: you know the other thing that's kind of important that 128 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: gets found on this like social media site which okay, 129 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: I wish it's a kind of weird thing, like he 130 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: doesn't I don't know. The social media site seems like 131 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: he was basically using as like a journal, Like he 132 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: doesn't like follow people or like have followers, so he's 133 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: just sort of posting this stuff. He also finds a 134 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: bunch of clips of like Tim Poole videos, and so 135 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: this immediately sends the entire right into like, you know, 136 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: full on defense mode, right. You know, it turns out 137 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: it's it's not great for your brand with like the 138 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: sort of general array of people if it's being associated 139 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: with a guy who just did a mass shooting. So 140 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: Tim Poole responds to the other thing is there's there's 141 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: like a manifesto w on it, and Tim Poole responds 142 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: to this by I think I think what actually, like 143 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: legitimately what happened is he read the manifesto and there's 144 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: a thing in the manifesto of like talking about the 145 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: Nashville shooter being trans or like peifically about the Nasville shooter. 146 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: And I think I think specifically he read that and 147 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: was like, oh shit, this is my out. I can 148 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: go back and talking about the Nashville shooter. Sure, And 149 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: so he starts, he starts this, there's this whole sort 150 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: of train of like right wing stuff about how all 151 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: of this is fake. So he starts arguing that, like 152 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: this isn't the guy's social media account. This this sort 153 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: of very very rapidly morphs into i mean just like 154 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: full on like Sandy hook shit. One of his employees 155 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: like tweets, why is the corporate press so threatened by 156 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: people questioning the authenticity of a Mexican neo Nazis Russian 157 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: social media account uncovered by state funded media? And this 158 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: because this immediately becomes the main line right state funded 159 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,239 Speaker 1: media things. They're talking about Bell and Cap which. 160 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 3: They're they're hopping on all of the tanky conspiracy StuffYeah 161 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 3: and running with it because Twitter is a is a 162 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 3: cultic milieu of conspiracy, and you can latch onto one 163 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 3: talking point to make you feel okay about denying an 164 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 3: entire like facet of reality, and then it becomes an 165 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 3: easy out. 166 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're gonna we're gonna circle back to like 167 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: specifically tanking. 168 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 2: People get involved in this because they do. 169 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 4: What they're doing is a little bit of like and uh, 170 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 4: an evolution from what what's what folks kind of in 171 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 4: the debating Christians about evolution and shit called the Gish gallop, 172 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 4: where the the the original idea of the Gish gallop was, 173 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 4: when you're arguing from a creationist perspective about stuff like, 174 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 4: you know, the age of the world, you bring up 175 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 4: so many different kind of topics, you know, from different 176 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 4: very niche issues, you have a carbon dating to, you know, 177 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 4: specific problems you have with like the way scientists are 178 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 4: interpreting specific fossils, and it's just too much detail for 179 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 4: somebody and like an ad hoc public argument to really 180 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 4: like counter at once. And kind of the evolution of 181 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 4: it is when you're dealing with something like this rather 182 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 4: than deal with the broader picture, which is there's just 183 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 4: a tremendous amount of evidence that this guy was a Nazi, 184 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 4: that this guy was motivated and kind of brought into 185 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 4: the community by a lot of content that guys like 186 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 4: Tim Poole make. Instead you focus on you pull up 187 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 4: one single thing that you can kind of like try 188 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 4: to get people to latch onto, and if you can 189 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 4: get them arguing about that thing, you can get them 190 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 4: to ignore the bigger picture, Like at least you can 191 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 4: distract attention from it, and it works. It works for 192 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 4: a lot of people. It's especially effective on social media. 193 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and unfortunately the social media platform that this is 194 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: mainly happening on his Twitter, which Elon Musk owns, and 195 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: Elon Musk immediately like decides that he's just fully in 196 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: on this shit, and he is, I mean she is 197 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: like like Elon Musk is is just actively promoting the 198 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: sort of weird conspiracy that basically what the sort of 199 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: right wing story about this becomes is that like, Okay, 200 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: Belling Cat is. 201 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: Is the CIA, and they're being paid. 202 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: To create a like a false flag thing that Okay, 203 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: they're they're being paid to create a false flag to 204 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: make this guy look like a Nazi and a Timpoole 205 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: fan to distract people from the Nashville shooting, which is 206 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: just like the absolute nonsense. But you know, you you 207 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 1: immediately get into like that that Timpool employee again like 208 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: it like starts doing this whole like, uh, we are 209 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: enshrined like with liberty to freely scrutinize every claim. Just 210 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: this the sanctity of like every human being in America 211 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: like has the right to question stuff. It's like this 212 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: is like literally like literally word for word stuff Alex 213 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: Jones was saying in the Sandy Hook trial. But we've 214 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: gotten to the point where you just, you know, like 215 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: the sort of mainstream of the right just does this 216 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: about every time it's a writing mass shooting, and this 217 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: this particular time, it's been just everywhere. 218 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, we're we're, we're gonna. There's no no, no smooth 219 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 4: way to break to ads in an episode about a 220 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 4: mass shooting. But that's what we're doing. We are back. 221 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 3: I want to talk now a little bit more about 222 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 3: the actual exchanges that Musk was involved in and how 223 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 3: this narrative of like a syop and this whole narrative 224 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 3: around the shooting being a syeop, how that viewpoint got 225 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 3: inflated on Twitter because Musk controls where all of the 226 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 3: interactions go for tweets and actually like specifically get into 227 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 3: how this specific conspiracy is is a demonstration of how 228 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 3: much of just a separation from reality that people like 229 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 3: Musk are like actively actively working towards. One of the 230 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 3: main accounts that Musk was kind of like riffing off 231 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 3: of in this and who was like trying to like 232 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 3: feed Musk this type of stuff was the Redheaded libertarian 233 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 3: who works for Timpoole. She created a bunch of memes 234 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 3: about this shooting talking about how how this the guy 235 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 3: can't can't be a Nazi and he because he's Latino. 236 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 3: You know, why would someone use a Russian social media site? 237 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 3: Even tho it's actually very common for American coperties to 238 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: use Russian social media. 239 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 4: We used to do an exercise at a trainings that 240 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 4: I did for Bellancat where people would go through and 241 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 4: use v Contacta, which is a Russian like kind of 242 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 4: Facebook clone, and you would kind of use geographical search 243 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 4: to find groups of like KKK members and shit in 244 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 4: the American South because it was really common with them 245 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 4: because it didn't have any kind of content moderation. 246 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: So yeah, the types of like right wing content creators 247 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 3: who are within Musk's Twitter orbits pumping out all of 248 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 3: this stuff, right, and this is where muskeets all of 249 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 3: his information from. So he starts he starts like just 250 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 3: questioning the validity of this story, but then also specifically 251 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 3: targeting belling Cat, saying that didn't didn't didn't this story 252 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 3: come from Bellingat, which literally specializes in psychological operations, which 253 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 3: first of all is just a wild thing to say 254 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: when you're talking about it is specifically like an open 255 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 3: source journalism website, Like it's the most the most honest 256 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 3: way you could do journalism because it's given people the 257 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 3: tools to literally check all of the work themselves. 258 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: Like it's yeah, I mean this. 259 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: Is kind of like a minor as side. But one 260 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: of the things that happens here constantly with all these 261 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: people is they're like absolutely astounded, like like how how 262 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: how did Belling get possibly find this guy? It's like, well, 263 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: it's not that hard. 264 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 2: It's really easy. 265 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: The thing is right if if so, Like I am 266 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: not a journalist, right, I learned everything I know about 267 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: this from gare In like one night, and like I 268 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: have tracked down like Matthews media accounts and like before 269 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: the police got them. Like it's not that hard. But 270 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: the thing is it requires you to, even like just 271 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: a tiny tiny bit be a journalist. And not a 272 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: single one of these writing people has ever like done 273 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: journalism ever, and so like just like the tiniest bit 274 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: of journalism just like destroys their brains and they're like 275 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: they are physically incapable of comprehending how someone could have 276 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: done a journalism, and then they use this to sort 277 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: of feed their base because their base also just doesn't 278 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: understand how someone could do a journalism and this this this, 279 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: this lets you do this like cycle, Like, how could 280 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: they possibly have found this? They must have been given 281 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: it by the government. It's just like, No, all that. 282 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 3: Really comes down to is is who has who is 283 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 3: on their computer at the right time when this thing happens. Yeah, 284 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 3: whenever I find out or whenever I can id people, 285 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 3: it's always just like coincidence that the thing happens as 286 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 3: I'm already at my computer, so now I can look 287 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 3: into this thing, right, it is It is just who 288 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: has access to internet at the right time is the 289 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: way that we figure out, like who's gonna end up 290 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 3: ideing somebody? 291 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's a mix of that, and it's a 292 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 4: mix of just who has the patience and the motivation 293 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 4: to sit and comb through shit for hours and days, 294 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 4: which is the same thing that like, it's the same 295 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 4: thing at anti fascist activists have been doing for years, 296 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 4: you know, especially since Charlottesville, where you're just like I'm 297 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 4: going to watch the same videos of the same event 298 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 4: and find new ones and I'm going to spend three 299 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 4: years doing that and eventually I will catch a tattoo 300 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 4: or a shirt with a logo, and that will let 301 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 4: me id somebody, because you know, of the of the 302 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 4: different social media shit that I've been pulling up, like 303 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 4: it's it's it's not. It doesn't take like spice satellites. 304 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 4: It just takes motivation, being in the right place at 305 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 4: the right time and having nothing else to do. 306 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, So eventually they started just kind of harping on 307 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 3: this term syop so pich obviously means psychological operation. But 308 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 3: what they mean when they say syop is that they 309 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 3: mean this was like a this is a false like 310 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 3: a manufactured government planned operation. That's what they actually mean, 311 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 3: right Like when in the conspiracy space, syop is is 312 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 3: more like a loaded term they don't actually refer to 313 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 3: like actual syops that get doning like against like you know, 314 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 3: you can look at like Cointel pro right, you can 315 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 3: look at you can look at various ways that the 316 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 3: FBI of the Army has done syops. But what they 317 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,959 Speaker 3: mean when they say syop is this is like this 318 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 3: is a government conspiracy theory and it's a false narrative 319 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 3: that's been crafted to like change public opinions. So I 320 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 3: guess I guess these people Mia you mentioned how they're 321 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 3: making it sound like this was this was created to 322 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 3: distract from the Nashville shooting or just just they have 323 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 3: various like motivations for why they want to but it 324 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 3: the important part is that they could use this word 325 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: to just easily deny reality, and that is that is 326 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 3: kind of beyond like whatever motivations they have. It's just 327 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 3: easy for them and their ideology to just block off 328 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 3: this section of reality so that they don't have to 329 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 3: like people who are like, actually libertarians don't need to 330 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 3: like confront what the extent of their ideology actually means. Right, 331 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 3: you know, there's a there's certainly people who are like, 332 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 3: okay with mass shootings happening, or you know, are totally 333 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 3: fine with with with like non white people getting killed 334 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 3: in mass shootings. But there probably are certain libertarians who 335 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 3: don't actually like mass shootings. They don't actually like when 336 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 3: fascists go kill tons of people, and it's easier for 337 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 3: them sometimes just to block off this section and ignore 338 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 3: it than actually confront what their ideology means. So some 339 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 3: must kept saying this is either the weirdest story ever 340 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 3: or a very bad sy op. The answer is neither. 341 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 3: The story is not super weird. It's actually very very 342 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 3: explainable if you understand the mechanisms at play here, and 343 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 3: even just not a bad syo. 344 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's not even like it's not on 345 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 4: it's like on the whole. It's not a particularly complicated 346 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 4: story like there are. It is not an uncommon thing. 347 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 4: I mean, the biggest, most recent one before this was 348 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 4: that shooting in New York at the grocery store that 349 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 4: was like a directly inspired Nazi attack. Like, this kind 350 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 4: of shit happens constantly in the United States. It doesn't choir, 351 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 4: nobody has to be secretly armed by the Feds. There's 352 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 4: an AR fifteen behind every bush in this country. It's 353 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 4: not hard for this kind of this kind of shit. 354 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 4: It's not hard to see where this like originates from. 355 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's I mean, Muska just kept kept replying 356 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 3: to both Timpoole employee tweets tweets from the very blatantly 357 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 3: fascist account to end Wokeness, which Musk has been replying 358 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 3: to quite a quite often recently. So this and I 359 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 3: think the reason why we wanted to just talk about 360 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 3: this specifically, is just because of you, Like all of 361 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 3: these Musk tweets are getting like millions and millions of views, 362 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 3: if the view counter is any is anything to go by, 363 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 3: At the very least, he's in the top three accounts 364 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 3: with the highest engagement on Twitter. So these these types 365 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 3: of conspiracy theories are getting inflated to extremely high degrees 366 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 3: at least online, and the separation of reality online is 367 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 3: inflated for these mass shootings in a way that I 368 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 3: have not seen in quite a I have not seen 369 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 3: this much just denial of like information regarding mass shootings 370 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 3: in quite a long time. And it just the combination 371 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 3: of the stuff like the stuff with Belling Cat coming 372 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 3: from the tankies and how those conspiracies have now mashed 373 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 3: with all of these like neo fascist shit. It's a 374 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 3: combination of reality denial that is absolutely worrying for like 375 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 3: future mass shootings as well. 376 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 4: It's a pivot in the kind of reality that's being denied. 377 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 4: You know, not, we have nothing to do with these 378 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,239 Speaker 4: Nazis who are parroting some of the things that we 379 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 4: say about immigration. It's this is fundamentally not the attack 380 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 4: that you think it is. This is our enemies creating 381 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 4: an attack to try to make us look bad. Like 382 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 4: the fact that that you've always seen bits and pieces 383 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 4: of that, the fact that it's being parroted by the 384 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 4: wealthiest man on the planet using one of the biggest 385 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 4: information fire hoses that exists is completely novel. 386 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, because I mean a lot of these things, conspiracy 387 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 3: theories that specifically about like Eric Toler, we saw we 388 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 3: saw leftists and tankies bringing up the same stuff during 389 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 3: the UH, during the stuff with the Nazi National guardsmen 390 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 3: a month ago, So we have a lot of this 391 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 3: stuff has kind of been writing on the back of 392 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 3: that and just continued and accelerating, UH since then. It 393 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 3: appears there's a few outlets like Business Insider and blank 394 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 3: at themselves reporting that they are they are receiving basically 395 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 3: shadow bands on Twitter right now with their with their 396 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 3: with their account and their posts having a very limited reach. 397 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 4: An interesting shadow band too, because it's not like it. 398 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 4: It appears, at least from what I've seen, that what 399 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 4: they're doing is they're making it so that when people 400 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 4: type Bellancat into the search bar nothing comes up, as 401 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 4: opposed to like throttling the reach of the actual posts 402 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 4: themselves trying to make it deliberately difficult for people to 403 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 4: actually look up information, which is interesting to me. 404 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I guess it. I guess it's worth saying 405 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 3: that the police and Texas have confirmed everything about about 406 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 3: the shooters political beliefs and his new Nazi ties. And 407 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 3: he has a neo Nazi shit in his apartment. Obviously 408 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 3: his body is covered with neo Nazi tattoos. One of 409 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 3: the things that some of the kind of right wing 410 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 3: content creators were trying to do is that they were 411 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 3: trying to say that the specific pictures of the individual 412 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 3: that Belling Cat found online, that that these pictures were 413 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 3: not this person. They in fact that they were saying 414 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 3: they were saying that the shooter is just somebody else, 415 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 3: which was also proven wrong. 416 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, they also they also they did another classic 417 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: right wing thing, which is that they misidentified the shooter, yes, 418 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: and thought it was another guy with the same name because. 419 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 4: Like and they misidentified the shooter, and they misidentified the 420 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 4: non Nazi tattoo that he had, Yes, because he had 421 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 4: a he had weirdly enough, like the city of Dallas's 422 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 4: seal tattooed on his hands. Yeah, I got a Texas tattoo. 423 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 2: On his shoulder. 424 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, they like definitely, Like there were a lot of 425 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 4: conspiracy theories about that, and a lot of them related 426 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 4: to the fact that, like, the first photos we got 427 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 4: of the guy were like the kind of photos you 428 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 4: get of a dead man at a mass shooting that 429 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 4: someone takes through a window while sheltering, So it wasn't clear. 430 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 4: So they would take a picture of like a social 431 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 4: media picture of the tattoo on his hand, and then 432 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 4: a picture of him dead, and like the tattoo on 433 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 4: his hand in the picture of him dead was like blurrier, 434 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 4: and they were like, look, the lines aren't straight. They're 435 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 4: straight in the picture on his social media And it's like, 436 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 4: well yeah, because those were taken by very different cameras 437 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 4: in very different situations. Like you know how cameras work, 438 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 4: you know how this This is one. 439 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 3: Of the funnier ones that one of these content creators 440 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 3: was doing, was they were they were posting the photos 441 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 3: of the Nazi tattoos that the shooter himself posted online, 442 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 3: being like, look how fresh these tattoos are. 443 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: How can. 444 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 3: If he had these tattoos for years, why do they 445 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 3: look so fresh at these photos? Because there right after. 446 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 4: Him, Like you do when you get a tattoo. Yeah, 447 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 4: there's like I have tattoos pictures of me getting tattoos 448 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 4: from like fifteen years ago somewhere on my Facebook. Like 449 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 4: you could do the same thing, suspicious, Robert. 450 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 3: One of the interesting things is that, like we see 451 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 3: the same thing with all of like all of the 452 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: worries around like deep faking stuff, like all of all 453 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 3: of the like weaponized on reality stuff. It doesn't need 454 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,959 Speaker 3: to actually be convincing it. It doesn't need to be 455 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 3: good like like deep fakes don't need to be good quality. 456 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 3: You can you can post a meme of like a 457 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 3: picture of Biden's face and some text on it with 458 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 3: a quotation mark post on Facebook and millions of people 459 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 3: will believe that's just true. Like it doesn't need to 460 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 3: be real or convincing in order for it to have 461 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 3: it like an effect. 462 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 4: And it's also it's not just about I think it's 463 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 4: it's thinking, like it's not just about convincing people. It's 464 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 4: not about making them believe it. This is like, this 465 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 4: is the thing that I tried to talk about years 466 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 4: ago during the eight Chance shooting. Shit posting. Part of 467 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 4: the goal is just to disrupt conversation. It's to make 468 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 4: people engage with the fake stuff. It's to make people 469 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,959 Speaker 4: break kind of the lines of reasoning that they are 470 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 4: going in with, Like, it's to make people distract people 471 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 4: from the stuff that is really clear and obvious and 472 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,959 Speaker 4: just kind of fracture the conversation, because the more that 473 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 4: you do that kind of the weaker you make the 474 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 4: response to what's happened, and the more kind of that 475 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 4: you can distract people from the degree of complicity that 476 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 4: the people in kind of the media sphere on the 477 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 4: right have for all of this shit. 478 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's why it's like specifically going 479 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: after the Billing Cat stuff has been really effective with 480 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: UP because like, like there are like people who I 481 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: am friends with in real life who like are convinced 482 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 1: that Billing Cat is a ciasiop like this is like 483 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: a like like really not insignificant portions of the left 484 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: believe this, yep. And that means that it's you know, 485 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: unbelievably difficult to form any kind of coherent response when 486 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: like half of the people who would only be. 487 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 2: Doing this stuff for like, oh, well they are actually CIA. 488 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 2: So like. 489 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 3: Yes, the the Netherlands based CIA unit. 490 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like, yeah, the I mean, like, at least 491 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 4: in the time I was there, the primary people funding 492 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 4: us was the Dutch post code lottery, like it's it's 493 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 4: it's I don't know, like. 494 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 3: Like almost every news organization they take grants where yeah, 495 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:25,239 Speaker 3: where they can get them. 496 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, And like I want to specifically talk about the 497 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: ny D a tiny bit because people like, so the 498 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: main conspiracy is about like they like, at one point 499 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: they took they took a grant for the National Talent 500 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: for Democracy and like, yeah, those people do weird shit sometimes, 501 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: but they also for example, like if okay, so if 502 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: you're gonna have the line that every single person who's 503 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: taking money for the n D is a CIA thing, 504 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: like you have to accept that. For example, like the 505 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: pro Beijing Electoral Party in Hong Kong is a is 506 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: a cia op because they also got a ship ton 507 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: of any D money, right like they they like anyg 508 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: just gives money to a shit ton of people. 509 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,239 Speaker 3: It's definitely worth emphasizing that, like the initial groups that 510 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 3: are pushing the Bellankat conspiracies were all gray zone people 511 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 3: that are specifically specifically paid by the Russian government, like 512 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 3: because Russia was mad at Bellinkat for exposing their war crimes. Yeah, 513 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 3: and like that's where all of this stuff starts. 514 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 4: There's I don't know how much point there is in 515 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 4: like laying into this specific thing too much. Would I 516 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 4: would remind you at all times when you are like 517 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 4: dealing with breaking news like this and there's a bunch 518 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 4: of different and there's a bunch of different kind of 519 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 4: like conflicting arguments about what's actually happening. Okham's raisor isn't 520 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 4: one hundred percent of the time the way to go. 521 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 4: But in a situation like this, you have two possibilities. 522 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 4: One is that a Nazi went on a killing spree, 523 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 4: as happens constantly, as has been happening since the Nazis 524 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 4: became a thing. The other possibility is that the federal 525 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 4: government for unclear reason and convinced a man to cover 526 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 4: his body in swastika tattoos and shoot random people at 527 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 4: a mall for gun control. That's not going to get 528 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 4: passed in the state of Texas. I don't know like 529 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 4: which of those seems likely to you. 530 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: I did this thing like very deliberately to myself, like 531 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: about a year ago, where I was like I was 532 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: very deliberate like I'm going to like un conspiracy theory 533 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: my brain because you know, like there is a lot 534 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: of like like the kind of reasoning you get in 535 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: this stuff, which is like, hey, here's a thing that like, 536 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: quote unquote looks weird, so this whole thing must be suspect, 537 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: so it must be an op is like a really 538 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: really kind of like it's a really common kind of 539 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: reasoning now that just like a lot of people across 540 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: the entire politic conpectrum have and it's not actually a 541 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: good way to understand the world, like it's it simply 542 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: is not. 543 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 3: We we live in an increasingly absurd world where every 544 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 3: single weird thing is more and more visible because of 545 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 3: the Internet, so we're more aware of how much weird 546 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 3: shit happens all the time, and stuff that and stuff 547 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 3: that may not not necessarily be weird because like everything, 548 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 3: there is an expert in every field who can who 549 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 3: can explain to you why this thing actually makes perfect sense, 550 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 3: and it's just people being exposed to things that they're 551 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,719 Speaker 3: not usually that they're not used to. I think one 552 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 3: of the interesting one of the last things I think 553 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 3: we should like mention about this is just the influx 554 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 3: of how militant like neo Nazism or like visible ne Nazism, 555 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 3: has just been People have just been saying it's Feds 556 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 3: in an increasingly concerning way, like like I think, like 557 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 3: a last month, there was this viral video of a 558 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 3: whole bunch of Nazis stressed in red and black, I think, 559 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 3: protesting something. I forget the exact circumstances at the moment. 560 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 2: I think it was. 561 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 3: I think it was some drag related protest, But there 562 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 3: was this group of Nazis dressed in red and black 563 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 3: doing Nazi shit, And when you looked at any of 564 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 3: the videos on Twitter, you saw hundreds of replies from 565 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 3: people with blue check marks just calling them FEDS, saying, 566 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 3: oh wow, look at all these Feds. Well, oh, I 567 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 3: can't believe the FEDS are so busy today. Blah blah 568 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 3: blah blah blah. You know, it's it's like the one 569 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 3: hundred person NPC meme with them all wearing the blue 570 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 3: check work on the forehead saying it's the FEDS, just 571 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 3: because it's once we get to the point where we 572 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 3: have more Nazis doing mass shootings again the same way, 573 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 3: like there was an influx between like twenty seventeen to 574 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 3: twenty nineteen than twenty twenty, there was kind of a 575 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 3: dip because all all crime kind of had a dip. 576 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 3: As we're gonna go into the next next election cycle, 577 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 3: as things are gonna start looping again, when more and 578 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 3: more Nazis start doing shit, just how there's gonna be 579 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 3: a bigger swath of the population who just denies that's 580 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 3: what's happening, and that is gonna make make the problem 581 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 3: of Nazis probably a bit harder to deal with. I mean, 582 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 3: there will still be anti fascists doing their work to 583 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 3: like docs and IDP and and all that stuff, but 584 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 3: the amount of like visibility and the amount of traction 585 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 3: that that this level of reality denial is getting around 586 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 3: like militant neo Nazism and around Nazi killings will be 587 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 3: a kind of a new thing to navigate, or not 588 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 3: a new thing, but like it's a the problem will 589 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 3: be bigger than what it used to be. 590 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 4: I wanted to kind of note one thing on on 591 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 4: the other side of the ideological spectrum and not to 592 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 4: equate the two. But there has been something kind of 593 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 4: concerning that I've been seeing crop up in liberal circles. 594 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 4: You may have noticed, kind of as a response to 595 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 4: all of the mass shootings and the generally consistent Republican 596 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 4: line that there's nothing to do except for be shittier 597 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 4: to marginalize people, that there's been kind of this like 598 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 4: focus in a lot of mainstream liberal media on articles 599 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 4: and the idea that you should spread pictures of victims 600 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 4: of shootings, and a focus on the amount of damage 601 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 4: that like a weapon like an AR fifteen does to 602 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 4: a human body. People can have their own opinion on 603 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 4: whether or not this is a helpful idea, but I 604 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 4: have noticed in sort of arguments I've been having with 605 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 4: people a troubling trend, which is when I talk about 606 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 4: the importance of doing stuff like taking stop the bleed training, 607 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 4: carrying things like tourniquets, I've gotten responses from a couple 608 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 4: of people that are like AR fifteens are so powerful 609 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 4: the wounds are not survivable, there's no point in doing this. 610 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 4: That is not the case. I have known dozens of 611 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 4: people who have been shot by AR fifteens, in some 612 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 4: cases in AR style weapons in some cases multiple times, 613 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 4: and larger weapons, and lived it is always worthwhile to 614 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 4: have stopped the bleed training and to carry equipment. If 615 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 4: you hear anyone saying that, please please correct them, because 616 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 4: whatever you think about gun control, it is very important 617 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 4: for people to know how to deal with those kind 618 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 4: of injuries, and it is important in the immediate wake 619 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 4: of an attack. One of the things that was really 620 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 4: unsettling is in the immediate wake of the Allen attack, 621 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 4: after the shooter was down, there was a couple of 622 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 4: people who ran in to try to provide life saving aid, 623 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 4: and a bunch more who took photos of the people 624 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 4: who had been wounded and killed. And it's possible that 625 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 4: if more of the people taking photos had gotten in 626 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 4: an attempted to provide aid, some of the people who 627 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 4: were injured might have survived. No way to know, but 628 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 4: always worth having that training. That's just something I've noticed. 629 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 4: Not to put it in the same moral universe as 630 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 4: trying to pretend your calls for violence aren't calls for violence, 631 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 4: but it is something that concerned me and that people 632 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 4: should maybe keep an eye on. 633 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I that was the case with the 634 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 3: Rittenhouse shootings. There was someone who basically had most of 635 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 3: their arm, yeah, blown off, but they did not die. Yeah, 636 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 3: So yeah, that is that is not true. And I've 637 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 3: watched a lot of the Rittenhouse footage and yeah, it is, 638 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 3: it is. It is nasty. Yeah, but no, that is that. 639 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:52,479 Speaker 3: That is a good thing to note. 640 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and also like. 641 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: On just a fundamental human level, like do not let 642 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: yourself be consumed by the algorithm so much that your 643 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: first reaction to seeing someone get shot is you try 644 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: to film them, Like, yeah, we we need to be 645 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: better than this, Like we have watched people die because 646 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: of this, Like like this, this is not a thing 647 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: as society that we can continue to be doing. Like 648 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: we simply cannot. We simply have to act and not 649 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: like become part of a sort of like mass media 650 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 1: spectacle instead of doing something. 651 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, the footage of things is not going to change it, 652 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 3: especially with mass shootings. Footage and mass shootings usually actually 653 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 3: makes the problem worse, and it's mostly used by people 654 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 3: who want to be mass shooters. 655 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm I that may be a conversation we should, uh, 656 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 4: we should expand on it a later date. But you know, 657 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 4: don't don't let the bastards grind you down. Take a 658 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 4: stop the bleed course, you know, bring a tourniquet with 659 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 4: you out in the world. These are these are action 660 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 4: items that that that you can do that might in 661 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 4: fact help. So that's going to be it for us today. 662 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 4: It could happen here Until next time, you know, keep 663 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 4: your head on this swivel. 664 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 2: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 665 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 666 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 2: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 667 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 668 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 3: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 669 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 3: monthly at coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. 670 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.