1
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:02,880
Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

2
00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,000
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff.

3
00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,360
Speaker 2: You're twice weekly reminder that I have a podcast and

4
00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:12,719
Speaker 2: it's about people who did stuff that I think is cool.

5
00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,640
Speaker 2: I am your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and with me today

6
00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,840
Speaker 2: as my guest is Dana el khurd Hi. How are

7
00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:20,000
Speaker 2: you hi?

8
00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:20,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

9
00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. Dana is a researcher and writer about the authoritarianism

10
00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,320
Speaker 2: and once wrote a book called Polarized and Demobilized Legacies

11
00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,800
Speaker 2: of Authoritarianism in Palestine and works does a bunch of stuff.

12
00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,600
Speaker 2: I don't know. Is that that who you are?

13
00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:39,360
Speaker 1: That's perfect? Yeah, that's good.

14
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:41,800
Speaker 2: Isn't it great when people are like, here's your bio,

15
00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,879
Speaker 2: as if this explains who you are, and I'm like, yeah, totally,

16
00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,839
Speaker 2: that definitely explains sure, Yeah, absolutely. I now understand why

17
00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,879
Speaker 2: authors always include the like lives with her dog or

18
00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,800
Speaker 2: whatever the fuck and or their bios right right right, anyway.

19
00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,120
Speaker 2: We have a producer named Sophie who's not on the call,

20
00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,360
Speaker 2: and we have an audio engineer named Eva hi Eva

21
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,240
Speaker 2: hi Eva are. The music was written for us by unwoman.

22
00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:07,959
Speaker 2: I usually am talking about things that happen one hundred,

23
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,920
Speaker 2: two hundred years ago, sometimes twenty years ago. But I've

24
00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,199
Speaker 2: been on this kick by accident where I've been talking

25
00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,200
Speaker 2: about the ancient world, going back a couple thousand of years.

26
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,640
Speaker 2: And I discovered this very week that one of my

27
00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,440
Speaker 2: favorite Sesame Street characters was probably based on a real

28
00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:26,520
Speaker 2: figure from history.

29
00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,119
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, who is it? Is it Oscar the Grouch?

30
00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,200
Speaker 2: It's Oscar the Grouch. It is totally Oscar the Grouch.

31
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,240
Speaker 1: Okay, that was a guess, but I love it.

32
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,360
Speaker 2: Do you watch mom Sesame Street as a kid?

33
00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,000
Speaker 1: I did not bump my son did.

34
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, awesome. There is for the people who live

35
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,320
Speaker 2: under a rock eh eh, or in a trash can

36
00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 2: on a public street. There is a green grouchy man

37
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,000
Speaker 2: who lives in a trash can and he hates everything

38
00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,480
Speaker 2: that normal people like. That's his whole thing. He's a

39
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,560
Speaker 2: grouch and his name's Off and it seems likely that

40
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,880
Speaker 2: he was based on this week's main character, a famous

41
00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,520
Speaker 2: old grouch who lived in a jar on a public

42
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:16,120
Speaker 2: street in ancient Greece. The one and the only diogenies

43
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 2: of Sonope, not to be confused with the other diagenies,

44
00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:20,960
Speaker 2: the one who wrote the latter. I wrote the one

45
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:22,920
Speaker 2: and only Diogenes is note and then I was like, oh,

46
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,040
Speaker 2: my main source for this week, the main source about

47
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:31,720
Speaker 2: this guy period is another guy named Diogenes Diogenes Laertis

48
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,760
Speaker 2: because okay, I don't know all romany Greek sounding names

49
00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,800
Speaker 2: all sound the same to me, but it's literally just

50
00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,480
Speaker 2: also Diogenes, who wrote a biography of this man several

51
00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 2: hundred years later, so it's still an ancient source, but

52
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,600
Speaker 2: it's still two thousand years old. You ever heard of Diogenies?

53
00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,200
Speaker 1: I have not, No, not a big Greek fan.

54
00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, neither was Diogenes to his credit. You know how

55
00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,120
Speaker 2: everything that you learn in school, you've then learned that

56
00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,639
Speaker 2: you learned kind of weird sanded down version, yeah, the

57
00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,560
Speaker 2: wrong things. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I like learn all this

58
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,480
Speaker 2: stuff about ancient Greece as a kid in public school

59
00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,359
Speaker 2: in the United States of America, and you're like, oh,

60
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,079
Speaker 2: it's got this stuff. It's a nightmare world. It's closer

61
00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,680
Speaker 2: to the US Confederacy, speaking of things that they don't

62
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,120
Speaker 2: tell you the truth about in American school. It's closer

63
00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 2: to the US Confederacy than it is to like some

64
00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,560
Speaker 2: like grand and noble ideal of democracy, right, yeah.

65
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:30,040
Speaker 1: It's more Sparta than Athens, like, and even those versions

66
00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,000
Speaker 1: we totally have sanitized versions.

67
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,840
Speaker 2: Of right, Oh, Diogenes is obsessed with the difference between

68
00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,600
Speaker 2: Sparta and Athens. But both of them are bad. They're

69
00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:44,480
Speaker 2: both it's their flavor of bad. But anyway, so I

70
00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:46,880
Speaker 2: don't have any direct evidence of Oscar the Grouch being

71
00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,080
Speaker 2: based on Diogenies, but I spent not a small amount

72
00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,200
Speaker 2: of time this week trying to find Jim Henson admitting it,

73
00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,280
Speaker 2: because it has to be true by the end of

74
00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 2: this episode. So you're gonna be like, it has to

75
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,000
Speaker 2: be the case that this man is based on Diogenes.

76
00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 2: But maybe one day I'll do Jim Henson episodes and

77
00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,320
Speaker 2: I'll find out Diogenies was the philosopher that gave us

78
00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,440
Speaker 2: the Cynics, a school of philosophy that is almost completely

79
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,960
Speaker 2: unrelated to the common use of the word cynic and cynical,

80
00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,520
Speaker 2: which you know, and someone's like, ah, like the old Cynics.

81
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,600
Speaker 2: I was like, ah, I probably distrust everybody I don't know.

82
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,719
Speaker 2: As an anarchist, I appreciate this. Anarchism is a school

83
00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,640
Speaker 2: of thought that is almost entirely unrelated to the connotations

84
00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,280
Speaker 2: people have with the word anarchy. The words meaned nonsense,

85
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,159
Speaker 2: like you know, ask a republican in the twentieth century

86
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,960
Speaker 2: Ireland and ask a republican in twentieth century America if

87
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:42,640
Speaker 2: they agree about anything. The Cynics were pretty fucking radical

88
00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:47,560
Speaker 2: for their time, and specifically they refused all social conventions.

89
00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:52,960
Speaker 2: That was their core idea. This guy Diogenies literally pissed

90
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:54,120
Speaker 2: on rich people in public.

91
00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:57,800
Speaker 1: Did they enjoy that? Was that an enjoyable thing?

92
00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,080
Speaker 2: It was at a party. We'll get to the story

93
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,760
Speaker 2: of that. I think it was kind of a you know,

94
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,719
Speaker 2: when someone's like kind of acting up at a party

95
00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,440
Speaker 2: and then they're like, oh fine, I'll just fucking do

96
00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 2: this thing.

97
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,680
Speaker 1: Then okay, So they just kind of egged him on.

98
00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,760
Speaker 2: That's the impression I get. But he was called the

99
00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,839
Speaker 2: dog in derision, and he took that name with pride.

100
00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,640
Speaker 2: And it is from the Greek word that I forgot

101
00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,440
Speaker 2: to write into my script for dog the dog that

102
00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,719
Speaker 2: we get the word cynical. It essentially means dog like,

103
00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,400
Speaker 2: and I think it less means canine and more like

104
00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:36,560
Speaker 2: like the guy the dog.

105
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,760
Speaker 1: You know, okay, huh, because I kind of imagine like

106
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,280
Speaker 1: the way that you're describing, and I know nothing about

107
00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,160
Speaker 1: Greek philosophy. They're like extremely like anti authoritarian, like of

108
00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,719
Speaker 1: any convention. Yeah, but then the dog connection here, Yeah,

109
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 1: I'll have to explain it a little bit more.

110
00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:54,760
Speaker 2: No, we're gonna get to it a little bit later too.

111
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,560
Speaker 2: But it's interesting because basically dogs were seen in ancient

112
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,320
Speaker 2: Greece as a sort of a rebel, but not in

113
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,280
Speaker 2: a glorified good way, but like a traitorous way. They

114
00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,440
Speaker 2: were seen as these like half wild creatures that we

115
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,919
Speaker 2: like put up with. Individuals of course, were like I

116
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,440
Speaker 2: fucking love my dog, right. And it was actually a

117
00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,120
Speaker 2: really good point in one of my sources, and it's

118
00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:16,440
Speaker 2: in the show notes. It's one of the books. I

119
00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,599
Speaker 2: don't remember which one. There's a really good point an

120
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,159
Speaker 2: author made that didn't make it to the script about

121
00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,640
Speaker 2: how dogs are the only animal that we get mad

122
00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,040
Speaker 2: at like this because it's the only animal we expect

123
00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:28,000
Speaker 2: to behave perfectly.

124
00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:29,839
Speaker 1: That's so interesting.

125
00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,880
Speaker 2: And so dogs were seen as these dangerous wild creatures.

126
00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,839
Speaker 2: Athens then and now were full of street dogs, and

127
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,799
Speaker 2: is full of street dogs. So it's like you're this mongrel,

128
00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,599
Speaker 2: you're this just like terrible creature that just lives in

129
00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:46,799
Speaker 2: the streets.

130
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:47,080
Speaker 1: Outside the fall.

131
00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

132
00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:49,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

133
00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,680
Speaker 2: So he was famously a homeless, itinerant beggar, and he

134
00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,599
Speaker 2: was an immigrant to Athens and everywhere he ended up

135
00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,840
Speaker 2: living because he could never go home. We'll get to that.

136
00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,159
Speaker 2: And he often lived in a big ceramic jar, which

137
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 2: is what Athens used instead of barrels. He was born rich,

138
00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,200
Speaker 2: he was forced into exile, he became a beggar, then

139
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 2: he was enslaved, then he was freed. He's the only

140
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,680
Speaker 2: guy I've covered on the show who was both owned

141
00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 2: a guy and been owned by a guy.

142
00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,360
Speaker 1: This guy his life story.

143
00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and most of the shit he did after he

144
00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,679
Speaker 2: was like fifty, and he lived a pretty wild life.

145
00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 2: And he believed that philosophy should be put into action

146
00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,720
Speaker 2: or it was meaningless. For hundreds of years, the Cynics

147
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,040
Speaker 2: weren't taken seriously as a school of philosophy in ancient

148
00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,760
Speaker 2: Greece because they're like, ah, it's just the weird fucking

149
00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,600
Speaker 2: street trash. Because well, some sources are like because they

150
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,880
Speaker 2: didn't write. No, he wrote so much, we just don't

151
00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,120
Speaker 2: have it. The other word we get from him, incidentally,

152
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,680
Speaker 2: is the word cosmopolitan because he was the first self

153
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:57,000
Speaker 2: declared citizen of the world, and he had no use

154
00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,120
Speaker 2: for national borders, which at the time meant city borders.

155
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 2: And he was a lot of things, a lot of

156
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,320
Speaker 2: contradictory things, and if I'm being honest, most of what

157
00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,480
Speaker 2: I read about him was like, Wow, he's the most

158
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,720
Speaker 2: unique man who's ever lived. But I have met dozens

159
00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,960
Speaker 2: of this guy in my life. And maybe it's because

160
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,040
Speaker 2: I've just like lived on the streets, and I think

161
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 2: maybe most writers haven't. These people aren't boring. Diogenies not boring.

162
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,160
Speaker 2: These people are aggravating and arrogant and full of unexamined

163
00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,640
Speaker 2: privileges and assumptions while they're accusing you of the same,

164
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,199
Speaker 2: But they are not boring. His philosophy was shockingly feminist

165
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,160
Speaker 2: for the time, but he was also a misogynist. He

166
00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,960
Speaker 2: actively worked against the culture of pederasty, which is a

167
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,440
Speaker 2: very common thing in ancient Greece, where older men would

168
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,920
Speaker 2: fuck young men and children, but he was homophobic and transphobic.

169
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,000
Speaker 2: He taught that people shouldn't own slaves, but also that

170
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,520
Speaker 2: slaves shouldn't look to be freed. He's just a guy.

171
00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,200
Speaker 2: If I'm being honest, and he's full of wisdom and

172
00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:58,720
Speaker 2: bullshit in equal measure.

173
00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,080
Speaker 1: I feel like you're discribed being like a lot of leftists.

174
00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,960
Speaker 2: I know totally you have met this man.

175
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:07,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely you.

176
00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,240
Speaker 2: Have met this Like he is so certain, he's full

177
00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 2: of wisdom, older white dude who's like actually, in this case,

178
00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,040
Speaker 2: he's an immigrant, but like I mean, he's also Greek.

179
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,839
Speaker 2: But whatever, we'll get to this. But yeah, this might

180
00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,120
Speaker 2: be the least on a pedestal I've ever had a

181
00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,680
Speaker 2: week subject. But he is not boring. So we're going

182
00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,800
Speaker 2: to talk about him. But first context. I love context.

183
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,760
Speaker 2: We are going to talk about the Greek world of

184
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,559
Speaker 2: the fourth century BCE this week because everything I read

185
00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,840
Speaker 2: assumed I already knew everything about the fourth century BCE.

186
00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,040
Speaker 2: But I am an art school dropout. I do not

187
00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,400
Speaker 2: know about the fourth century BCE in Greece.

188
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,120
Speaker 1: Well I do now, actually, yeah, can please tell me

189
00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:46,720
Speaker 1: I don't know if.

190
00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going too yeah. No, That's my point is that,

191
00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,480
Speaker 2: like I try not to assume that people know the

192
00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,240
Speaker 2: shit that all these books I read assumed. I know

193
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,640
Speaker 2: who knows this? Yeah, this is classical grease at its

194
00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,320
Speaker 2: most classical grease. If you think, ah, yes, classical gre Greece,

195
00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,080
Speaker 2: you are thinking about the fourth and the fifth century BCE.

196
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:09,360
Speaker 2: In Greece, democracy and slavery and pederaste. And it's not

197
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,280
Speaker 2: a period where there's some nation state called Greece. There's

198
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,880
Speaker 2: a bunch of different empires that come and go and

199
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,439
Speaker 2: they're all fighting each other and like, oh, it's Macedonia now,

200
00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,199
Speaker 2: and it's all this different shit, right, there's not even

201
00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,600
Speaker 2: really an empire called Greece most of the time that

202
00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,199
Speaker 2: lasts very long. There is a Greek culture which isn't unified,

203
00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,520
Speaker 2: but it is vaguely consistent across a whole bunch of

204
00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,520
Speaker 2: different city states, And so it gets really hard because

205
00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,480
Speaker 2: people a like, ah, yes, Greek cultures like this. I'm like, well,

206
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:35,960
Speaker 2: unless you're in Koranth.

207
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,760
Speaker 1: Which part of Greek culture, right, yeah exactly.

208
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,480
Speaker 2: You know, like, as you pointed, Sparta and Athens culturally

209
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,559
Speaker 2: very distinct. So Greek culture at this time is a

210
00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,840
Speaker 2: vague syncretization of the four major Greek tribes from that area,

211
00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,400
Speaker 2: who all spoke related languages and shit. The most famous

212
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,840
Speaker 2: of these cities today are Athens and Sparta, but Corinth

213
00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,520
Speaker 2: was there too, and plenty of other places. They all

214
00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,559
Speaker 2: ward with each other. A bunch Athens in particular liked

215
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,960
Speaker 2: being democratic and occasionally they get conquered and then overthrow

216
00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,240
Speaker 2: that to become a democracy again, working with ever shifting alliances.

217
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,320
Speaker 2: So it's like, oh, Sparta is the big guy on

218
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,640
Speaker 2: the scene. Like, no, now it's Thebes. Oh, now you

219
00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,240
Speaker 2: have the rise of Macedonia, a tiny little country in

220
00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,320
Speaker 2: the north. You've got King Philip the Second who's expanding

221
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,080
Speaker 2: territory every which way, conquering Thrace, which is also a

222
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,040
Speaker 2: place that exists, and now they're taking shit from Athens.

223
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,599
Speaker 2: Philip the Second gets assassinated at his own daughter's funeral,

224
00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,400
Speaker 2: and his twenty year old son, Alexander the Great, starts

225
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,120
Speaker 2: off his greatness by killing his own brother and his

226
00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,040
Speaker 2: cousin who might have wanted to take it from him.

227
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,800
Speaker 1: Okay, I knew that Philip sounded familiar. I knew it.

228
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. When I first watched Game of Thrones, I

229
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,400
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I guess this is supposed to be

230
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,680
Speaker 2: like e oldie England. And then I started reading about

231
00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,199
Speaker 2: the ancient world and I was like, now, Game of

232
00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,040
Speaker 2: Thrones is the ancient world right right, the.

233
00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,559
Speaker 1: Way that like you're describing the Greek world's plural. It's

234
00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:01,720
Speaker 1: just extremely Mediterranean. Like that's how people I'm from Palestine,

235
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,760
Speaker 1: like this is exactly you know, shared commonalities. But yeah,

236
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 1: people were not one thing.

237
00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,080
Speaker 2: No, that's actually such a because we tend to do

238
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,160
Speaker 2: this thing where we're like, ah, Greece is European and

239
00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:19,679
Speaker 2: Palestine that's not European, and you're like, this is all Mediterranean. Yeah,

240
00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,360
Speaker 2: and like the ancient world doesn't give us shit about Europe.

241
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,360
Speaker 2: Europe is like this like weird backwater full of people.

242
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:27,400
Speaker 1: Right in the beyond.

243
00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And so Greece is part of Mediterranean culture

244
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,680
Speaker 2: and that's much more important to them. So Alexander the

245
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,840
Speaker 2: quote unquote great. He centralizes the power a bit in Greece,

246
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,080
Speaker 2: and then he goes off marching to go fuck up

247
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,200
Speaker 2: the Persian Empire and then he dies of this or

248
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,320
Speaker 2: that illness when he's thirty two. I will never do

249
00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,120
Speaker 2: an episode about him unless he ends up a more

250
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,719
Speaker 2: important side character one day. I don't know, maybe some

251
00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,120
Speaker 2: people fucking him up. I don't know. But the power

252
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,800
Speaker 2: in this area is city states. And that's kind of

253
00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,040
Speaker 2: my most important takeaway, and I'm really interested, like this

254
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,040
Speaker 2: thing that you're talking about, I'm really interested in how

255
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,040
Speaker 2: if you just like dig back far enough, this is

256
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,200
Speaker 2: just human history, the idea that we we always like

257
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,680
Speaker 2: look back and like, ah, there've always been nation states.

258
00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,439
Speaker 1: Absolutely not, yeah, absolutely not. I mean, listen, I know

259
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,320
Speaker 1: where they come from. I understand self determination claims, but

260
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,920
Speaker 1: I would love for people to understand that nation states

261
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,840
Speaker 1: are a new and modern phenomena. Yeah, and we did

262
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,800
Speaker 1: not live like this for most of human history.

263
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,679
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so the various Greek tribes have been wandering

264
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,319
Speaker 2: around colonizing other places, though in a way that doesn't

265
00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,840
Speaker 2: quite map to modern settler colonialism politically. I mean, they

266
00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,200
Speaker 2: are going around fucking people up, but it's a little

267
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:40,600
Speaker 2: bit more like, ah, I'm going to go set up

268
00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,360
Speaker 2: a like city over here in this area that other

269
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:44,439
Speaker 2: people are also trying to.

270
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,680
Speaker 1: Do this too, But it's more integrative, right.

271
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,000
Speaker 2: It's interesting. I think it's more almost like a it's

272
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,960
Speaker 2: not super melting pot, at least the specific place that

273
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,360
Speaker 2: I'm talking about right now with Sinope, the town that

274
00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,840
Speaker 2: he's from, which is Greek, but it's in modern day Turkey.

275
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,840
Speaker 2: It's more interwoven because you're like you're showing up and

276
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,320
Speaker 2: be like, oh, no, we're a Greek culture over here,

277
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,080
Speaker 2: but we are our own separate legal entity and we

278
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:15,120
Speaker 2: are doing trade with everyone around us. And it's I

279
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,400
Speaker 2: think I better understand where the people who invented modern

280
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,560
Speaker 2: settler colonialism, if they weren't absolute pieces of garbage. I

281
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,920
Speaker 2: think they thought they were doing this. It was probably

282
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,040
Speaker 2: shitty back then too, like all the way back then. Yeah,

283
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,000
Speaker 2: but it's a different thing than modern settle of colonialism.

284
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,480
Speaker 1: I mean, you're describing the Arab world one percent like

285
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,800
Speaker 1: before the modern nation state totally.

286
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 2: And like I read so much about the Ottoman Empire

287
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,160
Speaker 2: for a bunch of episodes about Palestine and like understanding it.

288
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,840
Speaker 2: The little that I do helped me so much to understand.

289
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,640
Speaker 2: I don't know the way that everything shape. I don't

290
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,120
Speaker 2: know where I'm going with this, but yeah.

291
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 1: It's like a microcosm of like how world history has progressed.

292
00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And so you've got Greek colleg over and

293
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,720
Speaker 2: what's now Turkey on the Anatolian Peninsula and Anatolian Peninsula

294
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,920
Speaker 2: shout out. It keeps coming up on episodes. This is

295
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,720
Speaker 2: like the new tuberculosis. When I did the nineteenth century,

296
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,280
Speaker 2: everything was tuberculosis, and now.

297
00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:13,920
Speaker 1: Now it's this peninsula.

298
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of those colonies was called Sonope, and this

299
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,560
Speaker 2: is where Diogenes was born, and we'll get to that.

300
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:22,480
Speaker 2: Sonope is right up there on the coast of the

301
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,680
Speaker 2: Black Sea, and it's very importantly. It's a Black Sea culture.

302
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:27,760
Speaker 2: I read this thing that was like and it didn't

303
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:29,880
Speaker 2: really interact with the rest of Anatolia. But then I

304
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,800
Speaker 2: read like another thing and it was like, ah, yes,

305
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,560
Speaker 2: the Phrygian who are a little bit south of there.

306
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,760
Speaker 1: Like, it remained extremely mixed until the Turkish state, and

307
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,960
Speaker 1: even today the Turks that live in that area consider

308
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:41,920
Speaker 1: themselves distinct.

309
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,200
Speaker 2: Oh that makes sense. Yeah, And Sonope had probably been

310
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,840
Speaker 2: built in the six hundreds or so BCE, and this

311
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,200
Speaker 2: is a regionally powerful city state. It has a big

312
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 2: navy and it like to fuck around in local affairs.

313
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 2: They had a tyrant for a while named times Sillius,

314
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,160
Speaker 2: but then folks overthrew him in favor of democracy in

315
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,280
Speaker 2: four thirty seven, and then around fourteen Tennis. You don't

316
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,080
Speaker 2: have to remember these dates, they don't matter. And then

317
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,600
Speaker 2: around four tenish Athens stopped stationing troops there, so we like,

318
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 2: don't know what happened in the government there. We actually

319
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,160
Speaker 2: don't know what government this man was born into. It

320
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,360
Speaker 2: might have been a democracy, might have not been. They

321
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,600
Speaker 2: kept going back and forth. Also, democracy is a weird

322
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,000
Speaker 2: term in a place to say.

323
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like, what do you mean by democracy?

324
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,080
Speaker 2: It's like the men, Yeah, yeah, the citizens, I'm the

325
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:24,920
Speaker 2: people who matter.

326
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,320
Speaker 1: Yes, of course, of course I should have known.

327
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't know when Diogenes as motherfucker, we don't

328
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 2: know when he was born. Reading ancient history is so frustrating.

329
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:35,960
Speaker 2: It is exciting that there are parts of the world

330
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,920
Speaker 2: where we know about some shit from twenty five hundred

331
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 2: years ago, but our knowledge is still spotty. Most of

332
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,720
Speaker 2: the writing about Diogenies that we have from the ancient

333
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,200
Speaker 2: world is from a book written by a Roman Empire

334
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,320
Speaker 2: eragant guy named Diogenes Laertis. I was talking about who

335
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,880
Speaker 2: wrote a series of books called Lives and Opinions of

336
00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 2: Eminent Philosophers.

337
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:55,320
Speaker 1: Oh, he made him eminent.

338
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, Diogenies is eminent. That's true. People didn't want to

339
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,760
Speaker 2: admit that at the time, but he was eminent. But

340
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,920
Speaker 2: this was written seven hundred years after Diogenes roughly maybe

341
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,159
Speaker 2: six hundred. I don't bother doing math when things go

342
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,240
Speaker 2: BCEC just fucking I don't know. And it relied on

343
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,280
Speaker 2: sources that we no longer have access to. So this

344
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,800
Speaker 2: is our best history, ancient history full of people where

345
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,480
Speaker 2: we're like, ah, we have this two thousand year old

346
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,240
Speaker 2: thing that cites its sources that we don't have. And

347
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,040
Speaker 2: he's born in four oh three BCE or four thirteen

348
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:33,120
Speaker 2: BCE or like whenever the fuck late fifth century BCE,

349
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,879
Speaker 2: and he's born into one of the elite families of Sonopay.

350
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,400
Speaker 2: His father was named Hysisius or something like that, and

351
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 2: we literally don't know a single thing about his mother.

352
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,000
Speaker 2: Why would people write about women? I can't imagine why

353
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,480
Speaker 2: anyone would. Yeah, Hessius isn't just a banker and a

354
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,879
Speaker 2: money changer. He's like the money changer for Sonopay because

355
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,000
Speaker 2: all this money shit was new at the time in

356
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,720
Speaker 2: the region in terms of like being a important part

357
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,120
Speaker 2: of more people's day to day lives. And so there's

358
00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,040
Speaker 2: this international trade going on, and Greek cities would basically

359
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,359
Speaker 2: approve a license to someone to be the money changer

360
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,879
Speaker 2: in order to handle all the international currency. So his

361
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,120
Speaker 2: Dad would sit at a bench in the agora, which

362
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,440
Speaker 2: is the public square. It's important in Greek cities and

363
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,959
Speaker 2: exchange currencies. He also was the local bank, and he

364
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,040
Speaker 2: was a local magistrate, which is some kind of public official.

365
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,840
Speaker 2: We don't know what kind of public official, because we

366
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,959
Speaker 2: don't know. You don't get paid to be a magistrate,

367
00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,600
Speaker 2: So only rich people could afford to do it. See

368
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,760
Speaker 2: the aforementioned democracy of the rich men. But to talk

369
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,680
Speaker 2: about being rich back then versus now, I'm not defending

370
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,880
Speaker 2: ancient rich, but I think it's worth understanding. The anthropologist

371
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,679
Speaker 2: David Grayburn his book Debt, which is a history of money,

372
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,200
Speaker 2: talked about a lot of various gift economies throughout the world,

373
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:52,600
Speaker 2: And one of the things that I learned from is

374
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 2: that most societies put up with the idea of rich people.

375
00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,560
Speaker 2: Basically when those rich people are giving things away left

376
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,760
Speaker 2: and right and throwing them most fabulous feasts and banquets

377
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,640
Speaker 2: and financing all the parades and shit. Basically, you're rich,

378
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,160
Speaker 2: say you owe us. It's an obligation. You can see

379
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,560
Speaker 2: traces of this still, but the modern billionaire class is

380
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 2: like not into.

381
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 1: This, so like no, we kind of want to keep taking.

382
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a yeah. And I'm not being like, ah,

383
00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 2: like this is funny because it ends up with me

384
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,440
Speaker 2: defending fucking Carnegie, one of the like robber barons of

385
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 2: the nineteenth century, because at least he started all the

386
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:32,440
Speaker 2: libraries in the country.

387
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, he started foundations. Like yeah, he was kind of

388
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 1: like old school rich.

389
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a fucking piece of shit. He was

390
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,439
Speaker 2: robbing all of us, but you know what, he like

391
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:42,640
Speaker 2: gave a little of it back.

392
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:43,400
Speaker 1: A little bit. Yeah.

393
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so this era of Greece is obsessed with

394
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,959
Speaker 2: wealth and power and status, much like modern society. It's

395
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,680
Speaker 2: actually this moment feels a little bit more modern than

396
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,480
Speaker 2: the areas before and after it, based on what I'm reading,

397
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 2: Like it's a little bit like even more into just

398
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,879
Speaker 2: like nah, money's what's up? And it's a nightmare. Society

399
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,680
Speaker 2: built entirely on slavery and war. For all of its

400
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,119
Speaker 2: talk of democracy and civilization, Greece had more in common

401
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,640
Speaker 2: with pre Civil War the US South than anything one

402
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,120
Speaker 2: might imagine as utopian and good. The entire economy ran

403
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,679
Speaker 2: on slavery, and one of the main reasons to go

404
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 2: to war was to enslave people. I don't know that

405
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 2: this is uniquely Greek. This is a little bit ancient

406
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,639
Speaker 2: world and Mediterranean, but it's different in different places. But

407
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,199
Speaker 2: Greece at this era was like especially into this. It

408
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 2: wasn't the racialized chattel slavery of the US South, but

409
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,719
Speaker 2: it wasn't something pleasant either. I've seen it kind of

410
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 2: presented a little bit like most enslaved people were debtors

411
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 2: who then paid off their debts and then we're free again,

412
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,159
Speaker 2: and like yeah, and that's the rich people who end

413
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,959
Speaker 2: up enslaved. No, the entire productive economy was made by

414
00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,399
Speaker 2: unfreelabory and legal protections and workplace conditions very dramatic by

415
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 2: the field you were enslaved in and where you lived.

416
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,640
Speaker 2: In some places it was illegal to abuse or kill

417
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 2: enslaved people. Athens was a little bit kinder at some

418
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 2: points to enslaved people than other places. And I hate

419
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 2: making this comparison, but the best comparison I can make

420
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 2: is that it's the way the animals are treated in

421
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 2: modern law. Some of the worst excesses are illegal, but

422
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 2: you own your dog, right, And so when people are

423
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 2: like ah, but they still had some rights, like yeah,

424
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,400
Speaker 2: they have rights, like my fucking dog as rights, right,

425
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 2: you know, and that's fucked up. I'm not trying to

426
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 2: be like whatever. Anyway, Mines and farms were worked by

427
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 2: enslaved people who died a lot. Domestic enslaved people and

428
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 2: those working in skilled labor had it slightly better then.

429
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 2: In cities like Athens you get publicly owned slaves. People

430
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 2: who are enslaved by the city itself do mean civil

431
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,679
Speaker 2: service work. And the Ottoman Empire was like all about

432
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:51,120
Speaker 2: this shit.

433
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: Oh, like the janis Ares.

434
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 2: I was at what they were called. I'm not actually sure. No,

435
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 2: those were the soldier ones, right.

436
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, the soldier like the Christian soldiers.

437
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 2: Oh. Interesting, No, I don't know anything about the Janetius.

438
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 1: But maybe I'm confusing some concepts.

439
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a word I'd heard a lot, and I

440
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 2: don't know a ton about it. I know it was

441
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 2: like a soldier of empire. It's been a minute since

442
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 2: I did episodes about this. But in the Ottoman Empire

443
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 2: you have a lot of civil servants are owned by

444
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 2: the city, and it's actually a position of a fair

445
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 2: amount of prestige, at least according to the sources I

446
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 2: was reading. People would literally sell themselves into slavery in

447
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 2: order to move up in their careers and like take

448
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: care of their families and stuff. And I don't know

449
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 2: how the rest of slavery worked in the Ottoman Empire,

450
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 2: but yeah, but ancient Greek slavery was generational slavery. If

451
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 2: your mother was enslaved, you were born enslaved. And some

452
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 2: of the very beginning's speaking of nation states, some of

453
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 2: the very beginning of city states working together and creating

454
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 2: treaties was to help recover stolen property.

455
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. If that doesn't tell you what the

456
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 1: state is about, I know we're being very anarchist today.

457
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this meant that basically, other cities would hold

458
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 2: fugitives for ransom, so they would capture the fugitive and

459
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 2: then ransom them back to the owner in the other city.

460
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 2: It's not called a ransom, it's called an administrative fee. Like, ah,

461
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 2: we caught your guy, you're gonna give me something for him.

462
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: We got a storm.

463
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, storage fees. This is the detail that I focused

464
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 2: on the most, And now I want to spend all

465
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 2: of my time reading about the shit so I can

466
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 2: write historical fiction set in this era. Runaway slaves might

467
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: get the words arrest me, I have run away or

468
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 2: something similar tattooed on their foreheads after capture.

469
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. What a nightmare society

470
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: for real?

471
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 2: I know, have you ever seen a movie about the

472
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 2: US South where like someone who's been caught running away

473
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: has to wear like a nightmare collar that looks like

474
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 2: it's from a horror movie, that's like a steel cage

475
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 2: with spikes around their neck, and.

476
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 1: Shit, okay, I have it, but I can imagine it.

477
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 2: Okay, those were real. Yeah, and that's what this were

478
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 2: minds me of.

479
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. They just like they have to wear

480
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 1: hats if they escape again.

481
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally exactly. He like, ah, thus they invented

482
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 2: the bean.

483
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: Oh man, but it's still really bad, guys. This is

484
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: really fun.

485
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the past is a nightmare. The president is

486
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 2: a nightmare too, But the past is a nightmare. And

487
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 2: most of the most nightmare societies seem to be the

488
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: ones hell bent on civilizing everyone else. Of course, so

489
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: Diogenes was born into the top of this world. He

490
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: was very educated. He could read and write, he could

491
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,719
Speaker 2: ride horses. But do you know what, he wasn't as

492
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 2: good at as I am interrupting scripts with ad breaks.

493
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 2: I'm so good at it. This is the sole thing

494
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: that I will never be humble about. For example, just

495
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 2: now you're about to hear ads in re back. But

496
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 2: even though he couldn't do that, he could read and write,

497
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,199
Speaker 2: He could ride horses. He knew all the classics, all

498
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: the rich people shit. And it's funny because we don't

499
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 2: actually have it written down, like he was rich as fuck,

500
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 2: but we just like know it based on these things. Yeah,

501
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,719
Speaker 2: there's no public school in order to be educated. This

502
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 2: is the way that the first source I read wrote

503
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 2: it roughly. Not only did your parents need to hire tutors,

504
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: they had to hire laborers to do the work that

505
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: the kids would otherwise be doing.

506
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: Right, Oh, in replacement, I see.

507
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. But also I don't know. This is a land

508
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: of slavery. Diogenes himself is going to be an enslaved

509
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: tutor for a while, you know. So when they're like, ah,

510
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: you have to be rich and hire people to do

511
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 2: these things, I'm like, fuck, you buy people. They had

512
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: to buy people. Anyway, Diogenes grows up and it becomes

513
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 2: a magistrate. We know very little about his early life.

514
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: We don't know what his magistrate to see was either

515
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 2: because it's a different thing in different cities, but he

516
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 2: was probably in charge of the coin making for the

517
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 2: city along with his father. He lived in Sinope just

518
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 2: doing rich guy shit for decades. How long fuck have

519
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: we know? Maybe he was in his thirty fifties when

520
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 2: the next shit happened. We know he owned a guy

521
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 2: named Manes, who is from Phrygia, a little bit further

522
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 2: south in Anatolia. And we only know about this because

523
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: Manes at one point ran away and then was killed

524
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: by wild dogs. Rest in peace, Manes. Most the anecdotes

525
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: we have about Diogenes's life we have them because he

526
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: would make some philosophical statement about them. And the thing

527
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: that he said after the person that he was enslaving

528
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: ran away was that he wasn't mad that Manes right

529
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: away he said about it quote, it would be absurd

530
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,959
Speaker 2: if Mones could live without Diogenes, but Diogenes couldn't live

531
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 2: without Manes.

532
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: Okay, he's a self reflective guy.

533
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So he's living his rich guy life. He's

534
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: trying a bit of non attachment to his possessions, and

535
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 2: then he and his father get caught up in a

536
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: wild defacement of currency scheme because they're counterfeitters.

537
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: The power of controlling all the money wasn't enough. I know.

538
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: I can't believe we entrust two guys to control all

539
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 2: the money and then they did something fucked up.

540
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,959
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that's on us. Actually.

541
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, to be fair, they lived before Tolkien wrote the

542
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 2: perfect metaphor for this, so no one knew. Sorry ifence

543
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: at some point. Yeah, so either his dad or Diogenes

544
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 2: starts counterfeiting money. At least the legend says. Most likely

545
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 2: what he's doing is debasing coins. He's in charge of

546
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: the coin making, so he's probably having them put cheaper

547
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: metal in there, or his silver plating coins or his

548
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: gold plating coins. He's doing something to fuck with the money.

549
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: This would get you executed in the ancient world, and

550
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 2: people were on the lookout for this shit. People had

551
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 2: all kinds of ways. You would tap a coin on

552
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: a marble table and listen to the noise it makes.

553
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 2: You would shave off a little and dip those shavings

554
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 2: in acid. You would cut into it to see the

555
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: core of it. And there are legends about why he

556
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 2: did this. Everything that he does is like legends about

557
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,959
Speaker 2: And my favorite one is that he visited the Oracle

558
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: of Delphi and he was like, hell, yeah, make fake money.

559
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: She's like it's totally fine, go ahead.

560
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, crime is legal.

561
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: Did you know have you seen the society we live in?

562
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: It's terrible.

563
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, laws are fake.

564
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: I like the idea of this, like O, like this

565
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: woman just like messing.

566
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: With I know, and like the legend is like, oh,

567
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,239
Speaker 2: there was a thing she said that could have been

568
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,959
Speaker 2: interpreted more than one way. She could have been like

569
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 2: saying like, oh, you gotta fuck with society's norms, but

570
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: he misinterpreted her.

571
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 1: He's like I should deface coins.

572
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. And it's interesting to me too, right because

573
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 2: like when I was younger, I would hear about the

574
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: like anti defacement of currency laws, and I thought it

575
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: was like it's illegal to cut a quarter and a half,

576
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: which I think is like true, but no one cares.

577
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: It's about shit like this, Yeah you know it's a value.

578
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. And according to this legend, this is how

579
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: he knew he was destined to undermine the establishment. Like

580
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: now he was just trying to get richer, but whatever.

581
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: And then he gets caught and he's like I'm actually

582
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: a cynic.

583
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: Yeah totally. I've invented this whole new thing where I

584
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 2: don't even care about them.

585
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally.

586
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this actually tracks with his later views on money,

587
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: if he just wanted to make more money, and that's

588
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: why he's counterfeiting, because the problem is that he, according

589
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: to him, if you have any money, suddenly you want

590
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 2: more and you lose yourself in the pursuit of a

591
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: vain and pointless thing like wealth. So he probably thought

592
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: that because he himself had done that, he had succumbed

593
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: to it, and it it kills his father. His father

594
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: is arrested and dies in prison, and Diogenes is either

595
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: on the run or cast out his phrases, he's in exile.

596
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: God has got to be nice to be like, Ah,

597
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: I broke a law in one city, so I just

598
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: got to go to like like, ah, Baltimore's out to

599
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: get me. Time to go to Richmond, Like.

600
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Actually that would solve a lot of problems.

601
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 2: But I dignest yeah totally, you know. And he's on

602
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: the run. He's like in his twenties or fifties or

603
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: something like that.

604
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: Somewhere.

605
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and exile does him good, at least from a

606
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 2: becoming a philosopher who is all about not having stuff

607
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,959
Speaker 2: point of view. Exile is seen as a very serious dispossession.

608
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: In this time and place, you are supposed to be

609
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: buried in the same place as your ancestors. And Diogenes

610
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: was like, no, fuck all that, this rules, fuck nationalism.

611
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: And so it goes off to Athens, the center of

612
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: learning and the place where people from all kinds of

613
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 2: places went. It's the closest The word cosmopolitan hasn't been

614
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 2: invented by Diogenes yet, but it's the most cosmopolitan of

615
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: these Greek cities.

616
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, it's like New York of that time.

617
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. But even though he's Greek, he is very

618
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: much a foreigner legally and socially, because Greek is a

619
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 2: vague cultural idea. But what matters is Athens to Athenians

620
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: on the burroughs, Yes, fucking transplants. And so he begins

621
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: the rest of his life the Party's famous for which

622
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: is a homeless immigrant. His legal status is foreign resident.

623
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: He will never be a citizen again. He can hold

624
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: no office, he can't vote, he has to pay taxes,

625
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: and if you fall behind on your taxes, you become

626
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: immediately enslaved. I actually don't think he paid taxes. I

627
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: think they might have been like you're a beggar, maybe

628
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: you only have to pay taxes on what you make.

629
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: I'd actually don't know how the tax system worked.

630
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, he just never declared anything.

631
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. Ah No, it's all why do you

632
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: have a bunch of ones like I don't work at

633
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: a club. I don't know your telling about he probably

634
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: would have worked at it. I don't know. He probably

635
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't have worked at the club. We'll talk about his

636
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: opinions on sex work later, Okay, interest they're mixed, and

637
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: he becomes a homeless guy. The word mendicant is usually

638
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 2: used to be polite, but he did not care about

639
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: being polite, so I don't care. Being not polite was

640
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: his whole thing. He fell in with a philosopher and

641
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: named Antisthenas, who is way less famous today but was

642
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: his mentor and his sort of predecessor, the real founder

643
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: of the Synics. Even if Senics are literally named after

644
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: Diogenes is his nickname, So Diogenes is the founder of

645
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 2: the Synics. It's fine. Although Antisthenas was also called a

646
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: dog sometimes, so.

647
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: Is there's some rivalry in there?

648
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: No, No, they're buzz The real rivalry is going to

649
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: be played o versus Diogenes. But the real fucking competition

650
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 2: is that all the philosophers hate athletes. But we'll talk

651
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: about that later.

652
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: Hey, I hate jocks too. That's fine, I know.

653
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: I know, right, And it's such a similar way. It's

654
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: so funny. He's like goes to the Olympics and complains

655
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: about sports ball, Like he's just like, he's that guy.

656
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: He's like these meatheads.

657
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, literally literally meatheads because he complains about how much

658
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: meat they eat.

659
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: That is so funny. I did not know any of this.

660
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's just hilarious.

661
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: I'm excited. I feel like I am more kin to

662
00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: this guy than I thought.

663
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: Okay, say that you hate people the most when you're

664
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,959
Speaker 2: closest to them. That's why I hate Diogenies.

665
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: So he reminds you too much.

666
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I absolutely spent my twenties and early thirties like

667
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: mostly limited public and like.

668
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: Having strong opinions.

669
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally so. Antisthenas had been a pupil of Socrates,

670
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: and the thing that he passed on to Diogenes is

671
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 2: that you have to live in accordance with your stated values,

672
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: and so he was into asceticism and simple living. Diogenes Laertis,

673
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 2: the later historian, Guy, said about Antisthenez quote, he would

674
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: prove that virtue can be taught, and that nobility belongs

675
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: to none other than the virtuous. And he held virtue

676
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 2: to be sufficient in itself to ensure happiness, since it

677
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,239
Speaker 2: needed nothing else except the strength of spirit. And he

678
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: maintained that spirit is an affair of deeds and does

679
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: not need a store of words or learning. That the

680
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: wise mind is self sufficing, for all the goods of

681
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: others are his. That I will repute is a good thing,

682
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 2: and much the same as pain, and the wise man

683
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 2: will be guided in his public acts not by the

684
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: established laws, but by the law of virtue. I'm like

685
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: eighty percent with it.

686
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: A bit anti intellectual, but I also like I understand, I.

687
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 2: Get it totally, yeah, and like, you know, I don't

688
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 2: think that like like, ah, if your infamous, it's good.

689
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 2: I'm like, but I get why people come up with that.

690
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 2: You know, Also when you live in like a fucking

691
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: nightmare slave society, being hated by this society.

692
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: Like maybe Intonus is not that that right.

693
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 2: Plato, who's way more right wing, isn't sort of descended

694
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 2: from the split happens. I did not study Greek philosophy,

695
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 2: well I did this week. But Plato is much more

696
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 2: right wing, and he gets some pretty good digs in

697
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,959
Speaker 2: at Antesthenez, pointing out that Antisthenez he's like, always walks

698
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 2: around in his threadbare cloak, right, but he always wears

699
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: it so that the most patched up and fucked up

700
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 2: parts are visible because he's Oh my god, he's the

701
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: virtue sigulated. Yeah, I know this guy. Oh my god, yeah.

702
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:06,439
Speaker 1: I'm so tired of this guy.

703
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: And so that's who Diogenes falls in with before that

704
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: guy dies in three sixty six, which is how we

705
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 2: know when Athens must have been in Athens by at

706
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 2: least by. So Diogenes takes that shit to the extreme

707
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 2: and is voluntarily homeless, living off of asking people for money.

708
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: And this is very clear to him it is not

709
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 2: begging from his point of view. The word he used

710
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: for asked in ancient Greek has connotations of asking for

711
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 2: something you're entitled to. He exchanged wisdom for alms. Most

712
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 2: alms were barley cakes and olives and little bits of food,

713
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: maybe a tiny fish, rarely money, and being a mendicant. Again,

714
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 2: I'm reading these sources and people are like, but being

715
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 2: a mendicant in Greece was seen as really bad, unlike today,

716
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 2: And I'm like, interesting, tell me more about unlike. But

717
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: this is part of why I feel like this era

718
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 2: of a ancient Greece is actually a little bit more

719
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: like twenty first century America than twentieth century America, because

720
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: there's this like increased war on homelessness right now, the

721
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 2: right wing reaction to homelessness is like even more intense. Right,

722
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 2: Being a mendicant in ancient Greece was really low, lower than

723
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 2: it was in most places and times in history, specifically

724
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 2: if you compare it to Christian medieval Europe. In medieval Europe,

725
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: if you is never good to be a beggar, it's

726
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 2: not a nice way, Like society is not nice to you.

727
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: But you get something if you give alms in medieval Europe,

728
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 2: because by Christian values, you are saving your soul, right,

729
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 2: your own soul, right.

730
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: So there is like a virtue to like engaging with

731
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:42,280
Speaker 1: them humanly.

732
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And there is not that. In Athens at

733
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: this time, there's this set of Greek social norms at

734
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 2: the time called philia translated as friendship, and it's basically

735
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 2: this like social code everyone abided by of mutual aid,

736
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 2: where you all help each other out except beggars.

737
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 1: Okay, so the people who need it.

738
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 2: Most they don't get it, okay, yeah, which is you

739
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 2: see this in like right wing people too, right, You're like, oh, well,

740
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: you know that person. They're never going to help me back.

741
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 2: That's the point here, right. The beggars don't get to

742
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 2: be part of this culture because they are taking without

743
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: giving in return. And beggars terrified the rich ancient Greeks.

744
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 2: I read it as they terrified ancient Greeks and then

745
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, do you just mean the citizens again? And

746
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 2: the answer is yes, they terrified the fucking citizens the

747
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: rich dudes. To dream about a beggar was to dream

748
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: about death and loss. One third century CE Greek guy

749
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 2: put it, beggars have this in common with death, that alone,

750
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: of all people like death. They take something without giving

751
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 2: anything in return. And this just like wildly misunderstands giving

752
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: to beggars and death. Death doesn't take without giving in return.

753
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 2: It is literally where soil comes from.

754
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 1: It is, right, it's actually quite generative. Right.

755
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, every religion or if it's salt, totally fine with death.

756
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 2: Trying to stop death always be so bad. Yeah, I mean,

757
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: like we should stop people from dying individually, but at

758
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 2: the end of things, you're supposed to fucking die.

759
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: Everyone's supposed to die. Yeah, but remember your guy, he

760
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: does exchange things, right, he exchanges his wisdom.

761
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,399
Speaker 2: So he doesn't see himself as a beggar I see.

762
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 2: And so he's like he's being a little bit like

763
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: he's a little bit of a pigmy about this. He's

764
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 2: like a little bit like, I'm not the rest of these.

765
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: He actually, he goes on at one point about how

766
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: he has it worse than the other beggars. It's much

767
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: harder to be voluntarily homeless, according to him, this is okay.

768
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: This was the first thing I read where I was like,

769
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: I think I hate this man.

770
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: He's like, you don't know how hard it is for me.

771
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 2: Right, And his argument is because I read one thing

772
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: that was like and everyone hated giving to beggars, and like,

773
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 2: clearly people are giving to beggars.

774
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: Right.

775
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: What it is is that the working poor are giving

776
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 2: to the homeless poor. And this is much like modern

777
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: society today, right, Like I came up and I like

778
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 2: fucking always keep I actually got this from my dad.

779
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 2: I keep twenties under my visor my dashboard to give

780
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: people flying signs, right because there but by the grace

781
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 2: that God go I right and like right. And so

782
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 2: that's where people are getting their money is from working

783
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: people who are like, oh fuck, I could be you.

784
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 2: I want this system of mutual aid to apply to

785
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 2: you too, so that it applies to me, or they

786
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 2: just are like, oh fuck, you're hungry and I have food.

787
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: Fuck you know, yeah, I'm a human. Yeah you're a human. Yeah,

788
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: yeah exactly. But his whole thing is that people could

789
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: look at a beggar and think, ah, I might end

790
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: up a beggar. No one looks at a philosopher and thinks, ah,

791
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 2: I might end up a philosopher.

792
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: Oh my god, face palm. Those guy's annoying. But it's fun,

793
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: you know.

794
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: But I also I like love that he exists. I

795
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 2: just don't want to hang out with him.

796
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: The audacity, Yeah.

797
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. It's not just for recording podcasts. Sorry, that's

798
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 2: the software I used to record podcast joke it's free, okay.

799
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 2: And some sources are making the argument that even enslaved

800
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 2: people are capital to their owners, so their owners have

801
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 2: investment in keeping those people alive, and so to be

802
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: unowned and unhoused was potentially worse. I could not tell

803
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: you if that's the case. I'm skeptical of anything that

804
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 2: ever says something like that. But do you know what

805
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: I'm not skeptical of.

806
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: What is it?

807
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: Any of these goods or services. I think all of

808
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: them are on the level, especially gambling on your phone.

809
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 2: That always works out well for everyone. Yeah, whenever you

810
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 2: look at someone, you're like, that person gambles a lot.

811
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 2: You never say that person has a gambling problem. There'd

812
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 2: be a phrase gambling problem, but that doesn't exist. No. Instead,

813
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: people are like, ah, that person's rich. They spend all

814
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 2: their anyway tone online gamble. If that's the ad, I'm

815
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 2: very sorry. I don't have enough control over it. But

816
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 2: here's the rest of the ads and we're back. So

817
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 2: this guy lives in this increasingly weird liminal spot where

818
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,760
Speaker 2: he's increasingly famous as a philosopher while living on the streets,

819
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 2: but no one will have him over well again, I'll

820
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 2: read sources or analysis a little bit, but no one

821
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: will have him over. But then I have all of

822
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 2: these other documented times when people had him over. So

823
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: I'm like, God, damn it, historians, why don't you all

824
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: agree on everything? Why is there not a simple camera

825
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 2: that goes back then? I have never more in my life.

826
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 2: I've always been anti time travel is like a thing

827
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 2: we should try and develop. I am so curious about

828
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 2: the past that I would absolutely risk my life and

829
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 2: time paradoxes to see how some shit went happened went down.

830
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're alone in that. You're alone in that.

831
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 2: I kind of join you. You don't want to go

832
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: back in time and figure I actually don't give a

833
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 2: shit whether this man went to parties or not.

834
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: But just to say that, are you actually going to parties?

835
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. You called yourself a kill joy. But speaking

836
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 2: of this, as part of why I hate this man

837
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: so much, is that literally, my my cynicism and kill

838
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 2: joy attitude is how I ended up with my last name.

839
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: And so, as far as I can tell, there are

840
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 2: two classes of celebrities in ancient Greece. They're the athletes

841
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 2: who competed in the Olympics and had statues built of

842
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: them and were compared to gods. And then there were

843
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 2: the philosophers, who people were really excited about two but

844
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 2: philosophers hated the athletes, and they never phrased it because

845
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 2: I'm jealous. They always had real complicated philosophical arguments about

846
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 2: why they were Just.

847
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: Don't put it in the paper that I was mad.

848
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: I was not.

849
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 2: Mad, Yeah, exactly, that's like me, like me with I know,

850
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 2: I'm actually just jealous. I know they're all jealous. And

851
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: it's funny because Diogenes and Plato like are like at

852
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 2: each other's throats, like all the time. They would get

853
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 2: into fist fights and shit with each other. I don't

854
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 2: know if Plato and Diogenes would, but Diogenes did throw hands.

855
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: That is one thing that I can read between the

856
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: lines is that Diagenies threw hands like every now and then,

857
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 2: Like sources will be like, can he did grow up

858
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 2: a boxing and like they just included yeah, which is

859
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 2: interesting because he's like another character that I like a

860
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: lot more that I he reminds me of from the

861
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 2: research I did, is Oscar Wild. In that Oscar Wild

862
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 2: is also heavily quoted and misquoted. Diogenes is heavily quoted

863
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 2: and misquoted. They're both these like celebrity kind of like

864
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: wild characters who are very unique.

865
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: And they reject a lot of things.

866
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 2: And right totally. And Oscar Wild's the inverse because Oscar

867
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 2: Wild spends most of his life actively pursuing pleasure and vice,

868
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 2: whereas Diogeny's whole thing is like, fuck pleasure, fuck vice,

869
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 2: all of those things, you know, although they both fuck.

870
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 2: Unlike a lot of later cynics, Theogeny is absolutely fucks.

871
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: But what A hated Oscar Wild, partly because he's homophobic,

872
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 2: which is what a fucking hated Oscar Wild. But I

873
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 2: think they had a lot in common anyway. But they

874
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 2: both threw hands. At one point early in his life,

875
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: Oscar Wild was being bullied a lot in school. But

876
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 2: Oscar Wild is like not a small man, and he

877
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: just like beat the shit out of the people who

878
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: are picking on him. I think they were accusing him

879
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 2: being gay or whatever, and he's like, all right, I'll

880
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 2: just beat you all up now, and he like took

881
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: on a whole room full of people or whatever.

882
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: The fuck understandable.

883
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 2: That's why I like Huskar well a lot. But Diogenes

884
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 2: in Plato they're at each other's throats, but they agree.

885
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: Fuck athletes. And as for how he lived as this

886
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 2: homeless rockstar philosopher pissing on the rich, we'll talk about

887
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: on Wednesday. What do you think about Diogenies so far?

888
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: Honestly, he's an extremely intriguing guy, and it upsets me,

889
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: as you said that, I'm finding a lot to agree with.

890
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 2: I know, I know, but that's like when you meet

891
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: this guy in real life. That's how it is, where

892
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: you're like, fuck, half of what you say is so profound, right,

893
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 2: and you think the other half is profound too, And

894
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: that's a problem.

895
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I mean typical man and I don't know,

896
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: And I'm just like, the men have this problem generally.

897
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's such a good like his philosophy is

898
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,280
Speaker 2: very actively feminist, but the way he acts and treats

899
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: women is not very actively feminist.

900
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: Again, you're describing so many people like yeah, and this

901
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: kind of nightmare society, I mean, the extreme contradictions, Like

902
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: it's really a shame how much it reminds you of today.

903
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And it's like interesting because all the right

904
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 2: wing people are obsessed with the ancient world. They're obsessed

905
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: with the ancient Greece, and are obsessed with ancient Rome,

906
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 2: and they're obsessed with Plato especially. They're also obsessed with

907
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 2: the Stoics, and they're wrong about that. The Stoics would

908
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 2: fucking hate the modern right wing. The Stoics actually developed

909
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 2: from the Cynics. But they're all obsessed with the shit.

910
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: And I think I understand them a little better by

911
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: reading more about Roman Greece, Like the Confederacy was trying

912
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 2: to be this and they saw themselves like Sparta and like, yeah,

913
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: like so civilized and shit. Although ironically, according to Diogenes

914
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 2: and some sources, Sparta is actually a more gender equal

915
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 2: society than Athens. Really Sparta, like Diogenes, actually, I don't

916
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 2: think I put this in the script. I'll just go

917
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 2: on this brief. Rent Dieges really liked Sparta and compared

918
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 2: it favorably to Athens, although we never lived in Sparta.

919
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: But like at one point people were like, where do

920
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 2: you find the wisest men in Greece? And he said,

921
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: there are no wise men in Greece, but in Sparta

922
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 2: there are some wise lads. Lads, Okay, they're coming along,

923
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: I think is where he's going with this, because he

924
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: liked them because they lived a spartan lifestyle. They were

925
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 2: much more like minimalists. Yeah, they were like anti pleasure

926
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: and like just like stoic and just to keep using

927
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: these words that now mean very different things. He saw

928
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 2: them as a more masculinous society and he kind of

929
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: liked that, as compared to Athens was effeminine, not womanly,

930
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 2: but effeminine, and he did not like effeminins. This is

931
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 2: my biggest problem with him is that he hated me.

932
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 2: So it's like, in return, I'm like, well, then fuck

933
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 2: you too. Yeah. Obviously, yes, although oh there's going to

934
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: be a really good point about he's going to literally

935
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 2: have his life saved by trans women in part two,

936
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 2: which we'll get to on Wednesday. But first, what if

937
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 2: people want to know more about you and what you do.

938
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 2: Do you have a book out?

939
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: I do have a book out. It's about the palsinge

940
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 1: and authority, so very different from what we've been talking about,

941
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: called polarized and demobilized Leguacies of authoritarism in Palestine. I also

942
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: edited this book called The Handbook on Authoritarianism in the

943
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 1: Arab World. That's aboutually released open access so people stay

944
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: tuned and then if they want to hear me. I

945
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: you know, I do these podcasts for Cool Zone Media

946
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: as well as for the from the Periphery Media Collective.

947
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, wait, can you tell me more about the

948
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 2: second book. I'm curious about it.

949
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it is kind of like a reference material,

950
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 3: but I made sure that it's doing access. Yeah, life really,

951
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 3: but like I really wanted to be outside of academia

952
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 3: as well. And it's got thirty contributions on different facets

953
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 3: of authoritarianism in the air World, including like gender and

954
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 3: disinformation and the genocide and gaza, like so many different

955
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 3: components that I'm really proud of by thirty different contributors,

956
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 3: most of them based in the region.

957
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 2: Cool.

958
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm super excited for it to come out because

959
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: obviously the Air World says so much about our global context.

960
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm gonna be thinking a lot about the

961
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: thing that you said about how like the Arab world

962
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 2: is sort of a perfect microcosm both historically and present

963
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: to like understand so much about everything about I mean,

964
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,720
Speaker 2: not everything everything, obviously cultures are different in different places,

965
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: but like.

966
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 1: It's such an integral part of understanding Europe's development. Yeah,

967
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,720
Speaker 1: and therefore our situation.

968
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 2: Now right totally. Every now and then I get kind

969
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: of caught up on how like I'm like, fuck, I

970
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 2: keep doing these fucking European things. And part of that

971
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 2: is like literally my own background and you know, the

972
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 2: culture that grew up in. But also part of it

973
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 2: is just like understanding I mean, I want to understand everything,

974
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 2: but part of that is the way that Europe colonized

975
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 2: the world and where that comes from. Yeah, and like

976
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 2: like watching the British, the old tribal British fighting against

977
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 2: Roman incursion and then turn around and become Rome and

978
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 2: like literally model themselves on Rome. Yeah, and then you

979
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 2: have the gall to use gall okay, sorry, and then

980
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:26,879
Speaker 2: you have the gall to use the people who fought

981
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: the Roman empires, your nationalist heroes, like those people would

982
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,240
Speaker 2: literally kill you for doing what they would anyway. Whatever.

983
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well it goes to show humans are terrible.

984
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 2: Ah, we're gonna make a cynega.

985
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: I'm too prone to this.

986
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 2: All right, I talk to you, Well, i'll talk to

987
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: you in five minutes, but I'll talk to everyone else

988
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 2: on Wednesday.

989
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 3: Cool people who did cool stuff is a production of

990
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 3: cool Zone Media.

991
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website

992
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

993
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

994
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 2: M