1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Mitch McConnell warns of a future 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: headline Russia wins, America loses some future. We have such 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: a great show for you today, Talking Points memo Josh 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: Marshall stops by to survey the fallout from Signal Gazi. 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to poet and writer Anthony Walton about 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: his new book, The End of Respectability, Notes of a 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: Black American, His life and his Nation. But first the news. 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: So Bally, I think the buyer's remorse, even in the 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: Republican Party, is starting to hit Trump's economic policies. 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: Who could have seen it? Certainly not everyone. 13 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 3: Certainly haven't been podcasting about this for weeks that this 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 3: was going to happen. 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly not everyone. You'll be shocked 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: to know that Republican Representative Bacon us that limiting Trump's 17 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: presidential powers his tariff powers might have been a better idea. 18 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: Congressman Don Macon says the president was never meant to 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: have broad tariff power under the Constitution. I would add 20 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: a normal president would have been fine with broad tariff 21 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: power tariffs. Even Trump one point zero sort of figured 22 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: out how to use tariffs. But Trump two point zero 23 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: seems set to use tariffs in the most destructive way possible. 24 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: And FYI, what did the Dow close down today? The 25 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: markets hate this, right, this is it's in. Here's what 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: markets hate, instability. Here's what Donald Trump is doing making 27 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: them unstable? 28 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 3: What is Donald Trump's brand? Instability? 29 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: Stability? So the Dow is down about one one point 30 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: six y nine percent, seven hundred points today. The SMP 31 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: is down. SMP is down almost two percent today. Look, 32 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: they hate it, right, they hate it. They hate the 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: Nasdaq is down two and a half percent. People are 34 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: worried about the tariffs. And I might add that Trump 35 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: World is going about this as is typical, in the 36 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: stupidest possible way, just completely ridiculous. So what they're doing 37 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: is instead of they're raising these tariffs, and then they're 38 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 1: saying you can't raise prices. By the way, when Harris 39 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: talked about possibly doing some kind of price thing to 40 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: make it so that companies couldn't gouge consumers, she was 41 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: met with the pushback to end all pushbacks. So I 42 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: think It's a bit interesting now that Donald Trump missed 43 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: her Republicans. I thought Republicans believed in free markets, right, 44 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: So here's Donald Trump saying you can't raise the price 45 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: of cars even if they're more expensive for you. Pretty 46 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: interesting stuff here. 47 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 4: Yeah. 48 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: And I think the Heritage Foundation, they're a little project 49 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: to have unitary executive theory, is going to be seeing 50 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: a little bit of pushback now. 51 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: It's like they knew that this guy was a complete lunatic. 52 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it's nobody remembered Trump's first administration. I feel 53 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: like I'm going crazy, like we are. So it's like 54 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: the United States of Amnesia. Right. We have just completely 55 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: completely gone down this rabbit hole. So now Trump has 56 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: more power than he did the first time. The first time, 57 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: when he had all this power, it was a complete disaster. 58 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: Now he has all this power, and I guess what's 59 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: going to happen. Tell me it's gonna look a lot 60 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 1: like the first time. A complete disaster. 61 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 2: Oh there's some writing on the wall for how much 62 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: sure worse this disaster is going to get. But another 63 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: thing American economy depends on to stay strong is tourism 64 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: and fight bookings from Canada to the US have pummeted 65 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: over seventy percent. 66 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: We have hit this. Look, there are things stupider than 67 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: what's happening right now, but I can't think of them 68 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: right now. So Trump is having a war with Canada. 69 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: He's mad at Canada because Trudeau is handsome. He's not 70 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: even the PM anymore, because the Canadians are smart. I 71 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: don't know, because of fent and all whatever. I mean, 72 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: the truth is, this is all ridiculous. Trump is mad 73 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: at Canada. So he has put in these tariffs. He 74 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: has done all sorts of weird stuff to Canadians. Canadians 75 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: have they have a thing now. They say elbows up, 76 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 1: and it means that they're going to protect each other. Okay, 77 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: so we are now in a hostile relationship with Canada. 78 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: Canada the nicest people you've ever met, Canada. I mean 79 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: it is. There are no words for how stupid this is. 80 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: So as a result of our incredible stupidity, Canadians don't 81 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: want to come here. So flights the US have fallen 82 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: more than seventy percent. So this is April saw the 83 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: steepest drop, with just two hundred thousand bookings seventy six 84 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: percent from the one point three million bookings. This is real, 85 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: This is gonna have real effects. Right, These are Canadians 86 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: going to places like Detroit and New York and these 87 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: are they're not coming terrorism terrorism, excuse me. Tourism will 88 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: take a huge head. Our economy will suffer. I mean, 89 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: this is like the stupidest self perpetuating moronics ever known 90 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: to man. And none of us should be surprised. And 91 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: this is what you people voted for. So congratulations, Maga. 92 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: You didn't need that tourism anyway, Ley. 93 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 3: I got bad news for you. There's more stupid to come. 94 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 4: The House. 95 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: Democrats are tearing it to the White House for citing 96 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: you're a musk to the Signal Gate investigation. 97 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody better to solve crimes than people who are 98 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: sell the mystery than people who are involved in the mystery. 99 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: I feel like if you get Elon Musk investigating into 100 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: Signal Gazi, here's what's going to happen. Musk is going 101 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: to be like, why wasn't I at it? You added 102 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: f Goldberg but not me. Yeah, Like this is again, 103 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: this is they want to stop corruption with corruption, and 104 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: none of us should be surprised. Elon Musk will exonerate 105 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: everyone involved, because of course he will, because this is 106 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,679 Speaker 1: where we are right now, and none of us should 107 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: be surprised. And this is Somalia. 108 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 3: As we know. 109 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: The Trump administration is very excited to annex Greenland so 110 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: that they could turn it over to be a libertarian 111 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 2: play state. And the Vances went there to try to 112 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: scout things out and who it did not go well. 113 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, congratulations to all who celebrate. Vance went to Greenland. 114 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: So there was a lot of back and forth on this. 115 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: Usha was going to go by herself, then she went 116 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: with JD. Honestly, there was going to be a cultural visit. 117 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: Then it was a real visit. Now they couldn't find 118 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: anyone who wanted her to come to their house. The 119 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: Consulate asked, I mean, this is so incredibly unsurprising. 120 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 2: I mean, there's not a lot of people in Greenland. 121 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 2: I looked it up. There's less people at Greenwood than 122 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: fifty six. Yeah, there's barely more people than in my tiny, 123 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: tiny neighborhood in Brooklyn, and I live in one of 124 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: the smallest neighborhoods in Brooklyn. 125 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: What I think is interesting about this Greenland thing is 126 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: that you saw Vance is interesting because he's so unpopular 127 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: and he's so able to kind of transmit anything reasonable. 128 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: So he goes to Greenland and he and he's not 129 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: dressed up, he's not wearing a suit. He's wearing this 130 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:45,239 Speaker 1: weird black sweater like somethings really disrespectful. Yeah, and he says, 131 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: he goes to this base space in Greenland and he 132 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: speaks to troops Vance's military force. Is not necessary for 133 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: the US to expand its presence in Greenland. I mean, 134 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: it's just so menacing, like leave them a loan. And 135 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: then he goes after Denmark. Denmark has not done a 136 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: good job for the people of Greenland and the US 137 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: needs to step in. Good luck to this. I mean, 138 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: there is no mean we're going to go to war 139 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: with Denmark. Now. This is so stupid. Everything is so stupid. 140 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: He says it Russia and China increasing their footprints in 141 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: the area. Look, he had remembered this was going to 142 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: be a bigger trip and he had to scale it 143 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: down because of this row with the governments of Greenland 144 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: and Denmark over a lack of invitation. This is what 145 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: we become, right, we are We're not even invited to 146 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: places like Greenland and I think this has happened so quickly. 147 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 1: We're like in we're like two or six weeks into this, 148 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: and none of us should be surprised. Josh Marshall is 149 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: the editor of Talking Points Memo. Welcome back to Fast Politics, Josh. 150 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 4: Marshall, thanks for having me. 151 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: When Signal Gate happened, or as I like to call it, 152 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: signal Gazi, I thought, yes, signal Gazi, I thought not. 153 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: I stole it from someone on the internet. Obviously, when 154 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: Signalazi happened, I thought, oh, this is going to be 155 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: the beginning of what a Trump administration has historically been like. 156 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: And I was not. I was not wrong. 157 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 5: Discussed No, No, you weren't wrong. It definitely has. It's 158 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 5: definitely broken through in a way that nothing else so 159 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 5: far in this administration has broken through. And as always 160 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,839 Speaker 5: in the sort of the unique dynamics of press stories 161 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 5: and stuff. As much as this is a big deal 162 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 5: and a bizarre deal, like, it may be more a 163 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 5: bizarre deal than a big deal, although it's both that 164 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 5: it's not like other things haven't happened that were also 165 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 5: really big deals, right and arguably much much bigger deals. 166 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 5: But there are just dimensions of this story that it. 167 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 5: You know, Wan dimension is that we've got this sort 168 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 5: of like running twenty years thing about classified information, right. 169 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 4: It's it's it's almost like a kind of a a 170 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 4: A A A. 171 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 5: A play trilogy that has all these little storylines in 172 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 5: it and all these times when one thing happened or 173 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 5: another thing happens, so everybody can say, well, I guess 174 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 5: what about Hillary? 175 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 4: And what about this person? About that? Every it builds 176 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 4: in all that stuff. 177 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:28,599 Speaker 5: It obviously ties into the kind of political elites fixation 178 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 5: on national security matters and and and and and classification. 179 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 5: And then there's the other thing that you know, everybody 180 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 5: people have a time when they're planning the keegger when 181 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 5: parents are away on the weekend and you lit grandma 182 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 5: in on the chat thread, right that kind of. 183 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, in this case, Jeff Goldberg would be grandma right. 184 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, exactly exactly. 185 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 5: And and so that there are dimensions of it like 186 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 5: that that are very relatable to people, or even the 187 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 5: sort of there's a sort of a visual reference we 188 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 5: all have with the screen capture of the embarrassing text 189 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 5: back and forth or stuff like that, so everybody can 190 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 5: kind of relate to that where everybody can't say, like, 191 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 5: I remember the time you shut down my USA aid, 192 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 5: what were you thinking? 193 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 1: Right? 194 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 6: Right? 195 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 5: Right, So all of those things kind of play into 196 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 5: it and and have made it break through. And one 197 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 5: of the things that is like all, like all stories 198 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 5: that have a lot of legs and a lot of traction, 199 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 5: it is to use the fancy in the fancy graduate 200 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 5: school sense of the term. It's a very complex text, right, 201 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 5: There's a lot in there, and people keep fighting new 202 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 5: layers of it. 203 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's so interesting when we're talking about this 204 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: because it is there were this administration. I feel like 205 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: I think Benghazi Gate was the beginning of Benghazi. Signal 206 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: Gate was the beginning. And then we had in rapid succession, 207 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: Democrats winning that effort Marry Trumpy Pennsylvania. And then we're 208 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: seeing the or we're seeing the polling from this this 209 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: Wisconsin judgeship looks pretty good for Dems. Now, we don't 210 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: know what Elon's going to do because he's he's going 211 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: to ord twenty billion dollars to the person who manages 212 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: to whatever anyone who registers to vote for this Trumpy 213 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: judge in Wisconsin. And remember there's also this issue in 214 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: Wisconsin where we have Elon has a lawsuit about Tesla 215 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: dealerships being owned by the car manufacturer, and so you have, 216 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: as with everything with the Elon Musk, he's conflicted up 217 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 1: the wazoo, and he's also involved in politics, because really 218 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: how we got here and I want you to talk 219 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: about this because I think you and I both agree 220 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: on this. There is just a straight line between Citizens 221 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: United and where the fuck we are right now? 222 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 5: Discuss Yeah, there's absolutely no question about the absolute no 223 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 5: question about that. 224 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 4: That it is. 225 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 5: I think it's hard for certainly hard for young people 226 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 5: to know, but it's even hard for us older people 227 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 5: to quite remember that only about fifteen years ago. Obviously, 228 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 5: obviously very wealthy people still had a lot of attraction 229 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 5: in politics. But this this whole kind of like I'm 230 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 5: putting fifty million in this year just wasn't the thing. 231 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 5: You couldn't you could not do that. There are obviously 232 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 5: things people could do at the margins, but the it 233 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 5: it used to be for the the the ultra rich 234 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 5: kind of like I'm gonna I'm gonna slurp up this 235 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 5: swimming pool through a straw. 236 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 4: There just wasn't that. It was too tight. 237 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 5: You couldn't do it and now where obviously it happens 238 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 5: every year. That's the key in every in every political cycle. 239 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 5: You have the dynamics with Democrats about their small givers 240 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 5: and all sorts of stuff. And obviously many wealthy people, 241 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 5: very wealthy people also contribute to Democrats. But Republican campaigns 242 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 5: now are real dominated by the decisions of twenty years 243 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 5: thirty people. That's the funding base, the billionaires, and that 244 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 5: is just that's just totally new and with and you 245 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 5: have it even more with Musk, where obviously he's he's 246 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 5: takes it to you feel bad for the people with 247 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 5: two or three billion who are kind of cant keep 248 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 5: up appearances around around the Bezoses and the Musks and stuff. 249 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 5: But with Musk he also has because of the different 250 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 5: holds he has in communication and technology and national security stuff. 251 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 5: That there was that moment late in the twenty twenty 252 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 5: four campaign where people were saying, like. 253 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 4: Can he pay people to register? 254 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 5: Is that like that can't That's not legal, right, And 255 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 5: I think there was a moment of recognition where he's like, yeah, yeah, 256 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 5: sue me, dude, or like charge me, but that's not 257 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 5: gonna work because like. 258 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: Good luck rich. 259 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 5: I'm too rich, right, I will bet the I am 260 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 5: like a black hole and the light is going to 261 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 5: bend around me. 262 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 4: Kind of. 263 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 5: Yes, that's a big moment when that happens somewhere. 264 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 4: That's true. 265 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: No, And I mean I think, like the clearly, lawlessness 266 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: is how we got here, right, and lawlessness is how 267 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: we'll stay here unless things get worse, which is real possible. 268 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:21,479 Speaker 4: Yeah, unquestionable. 269 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 5: I think we are in many ways in the next 270 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 5: year or so at this break point where we're gonna 271 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 5: we're going to have a pivot in one direction or another. 272 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 5: Like I think one of the dimensions of and you 273 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 5: kind of alluded to it with these upcoming elections that 274 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 5: are the Wisconsin one is is a is foundationally a 275 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 5: big deal special election Florida may not be in itself 276 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 5: the hugest deal in the world, but it may be 277 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 5: a very big indicator. It may have a lot of 278 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 5: political impact. And one of the things that I think 279 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 5: I've heard a lot, I think everybody has heard this discussed, 280 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 5: and it kind of spooks people is they don't seem 281 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 5: they don't seem to be acting like they're worried about 282 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 5: the next elections. That mean they have reason not to 283 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 5: be kind of like what are we? 284 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, what's happening here? 285 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 5: Like they why isn't gravity affecting them? Or why don't 286 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 5: they think gravity will affect them? 287 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: I mean, the good news, the good news is not 288 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: to interrupt you, but the good news is they are 289 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: worried because we because Trump would not have pulled the 290 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: least of nominee nomination if he was not worried about 291 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: losing that seed. So sank God, honestly he did that 292 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: because had he not, I would have been like, why 293 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: is he not worried about losing a seat when it 294 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: looks like they might lose this Florida seed? And we're 295 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: seeing right Trump's pollster Tony Fabrizio saying that he doesn't 296 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: he sees this Florida seat, which isn't an R plus 297 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: whatever our plus fifteen. I think it's yeah, first district, 298 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: it's well, yes, the Macates. 299 00:16:58,960 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 6: Or is it? 300 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 4: There's at Gates. 301 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 5: There's the Matt Gates district, which that election I think 302 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 5: is the and then the Walls one is Florida six, 303 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 5: and that's the one that's that seems the most. That 304 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 5: one is very Republican. The Gates district is like triple Republican. Yeah, 305 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 5: I mean it's literally like like, I mean, look if 306 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 5: you have yes right right, So yeah, so that one 307 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 5: is even in this climate, that would be hard. But 308 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 5: I think I think people are wrong to be thinking 309 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 5: there's some something up their sleeve that they might not 310 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 5: have to worry about the next election. But what I 311 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 5: do think you're seeing is a mix of hubris on 312 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 5: Trump Trump and the Republican Party's part, but also a 313 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 5: sense of kind of last chances and thinking that we 314 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 5: are going to eighteen months is a long time and 315 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 5: that maybe we can do so many things in eighteen 316 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 5: months that even if we lose an election, we're going 317 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 5: to have re you know, reoriented, retilted the game board 318 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 5: enough that will that we can handle losing a few elections. 319 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 5: So there's definitely a not just a sense, but a 320 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 5: reality that everybody is everybody is doubling down, everybody's going 321 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,719 Speaker 5: double or nothing, and that creates this immense tension that 322 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 5: we can all feel in American life right now. 323 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: And actually, as we're talking about this, if you taught, 324 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: I was talking to someone, a reporter, straight, a fancy 325 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: straight reporter, who was talking to me about talking to 326 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: some people from heritage who we're saying to her, we 327 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: don't give a fuck. We're going to get enough stuff in. 328 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 6: Now. 329 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: The whole goal here is, and this is not a 330 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: state secret, they published it in Project twenty twenty five, 331 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: we're trying to flood the Supreme Court with stuff so 332 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: we can radically remake the federal government. And that's what 333 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: this is. Now. That said that, so they are like 334 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: parallel destructive tracks. The thing as a journalist, I think 335 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: you and I, at least I am the most pred 336 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: out by is the disappearing grad student sending them to 337 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: a detention center in Louisiana. 338 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 5: So let's talk about I mean, there's a lot of 339 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 5: To me, there's a lot of scary things, but that 340 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 5: is that is one hundred percent one of them. And 341 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 5: these things, there's so many levels of that. I think 342 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 5: we've all now seen the woman who's a gradu student 343 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 5: of Toughts being sort of kidnadnapped on the street. And 344 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 5: what strikes me there though, is one thing is people 345 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 5: who are here for educations, their lives are being their lives, 346 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 5: their careers, et cetera, are being upended. 347 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 4: But what strikes me there is that, first of. 348 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 5: All the security you have as a as a student 349 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 5: visa holder in the United States is thin. Right, You 350 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 5: don't have a lot of rights as opposed to a 351 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 5: Green cardholder or a citizen. But in that case, let's say, 352 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 5: let's say we accept for the purposes of discussion that Okay, 353 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 5: they decided that they don't want her anymore as a 354 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 5: student in the United States. 355 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 4: There is a simple way to deal with that. 356 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 5: You call the person up that the United States has 357 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 5: records of them, they know the phone number, they know 358 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 5: where they're living, blah blah. That's part of having a 359 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 5: student visa. You call them up and say you did X, 360 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 5: Y and Z, and we're not comfortable having you here 361 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 5: here anymore, notifying you that your visa is revoked and 362 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 5: you have one month to leave the United States. And 363 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 5: that's a bummer for her education and her professional future 364 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 5: and her life in the United States. But that is 365 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 5: an orderly thing, right, you get a flight, Okay. The 366 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 5: point of doing this thing where you're walking down the 367 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 5: street and a bunch of guys who look like they've 368 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 5: just come over from the skate park grab you, some 369 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 5: of them masked, that that is a spectacle of terror 370 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 5: that is meant to terrify. Yeah, and lots of people 371 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 5: in the country, certainly everybody here in a student visa, 372 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 5: but also people who are here on green cards, because 373 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 5: we know this other guy at Columbia was taken not 374 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 5: quite in the same dramatic fashion, but relatively dramatic fashion, 375 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 5: and then they're taken off to some other part of 376 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 5: kind of intentionally getting them a couple thousand miles away 377 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 5: from where they started. Just just there's a whole there's 378 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 5: a whole drama to that, a whole terror to that, 379 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 5: and that is that's not just meant for that person, 380 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 5: that's meant for anybody who is looks at all like them, 381 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 5: has a similar immigration status to them, to walk around 382 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,479 Speaker 5: in a real degree of terror. And if someone says, hey, 383 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 5: you want to come to this meeting we're holding about 384 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 5: about the West Bank, It's like, no, I no, I 385 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 5: don't I believe me. I'm just focused on studying, right. 386 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 5: So it's that aspect of it that is. The other 387 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 5: aspects are very important. But Hill's speech. 388 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 4: They want, they. 389 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 5: Want the visuals that really make people feel like they're 390 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 5: living in a police state, Like we have these metaphors 391 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 5: in American political culture, knock on the door in the night, now. 392 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: Did you get them? They ran the doorbell. 393 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 5: Being disappeared, And in most of our lives, those those 394 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 5: have been negative metaphors, right. 395 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 4: Or no, it's. 396 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: Right, right. I think it's also a couple of things 397 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: that I'm struck by when we talk about this. It's 398 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: obviously a war on free speech. But and I want 399 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: since we're both Jews, and we're both liberals, and we're 400 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: both I'm a little younger than you are, sorry, but 401 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: we come from this similar we've seen and using the 402 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: whole prep false premise of this is anti Semitism, that 403 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: they're protecting Jews from anti semitism. This is a crew 404 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: that does not give a fuck about Jews, but they 405 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: want to protect us from dangerous anti semitism which is 406 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: happening by students who are expressing their views on Palestine. 407 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: I want to I mean, I want you to talk 408 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 1: about that. 409 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 5: Well, yeah, it's funny because I I have opinions about 410 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 5: the about the protests that aren't the same as as 411 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 5: as all of the American laughter, American liberals or whatever. 412 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 5: I have kind of my my own, my own thoughts 413 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 5: about this. But but it is absolutely the case that 414 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 5: this administration is using Jews as a cudgel to attack 415 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 5: other people. And sometimes it's attack other people, to basically 416 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 5: attack anybody from an Arab or a a predominantly Muslim 417 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 5: country who has who said anything about the situation in 418 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 5: Gaza last year and and and the year before, but 419 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 5: also in the situation at Columbia, again, we were the cudgel. 420 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 5: You see, you know, you imagine them with like a 421 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 5: little jew stick running up and hitting people with it. 422 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 4: Right, which is really kind of what's happening here. 423 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 5: But in Colombia they're saying, all right, we're hitting you 424 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 5: with the jew stick and all of this this this 425 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 5: this research you're doing on rheumatoid or arthritis, and it's 426 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 5: this kind of cancer that's over And you're sort of. 427 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 4: Like, wait, what you might say, because. 428 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,959 Speaker 5: It's not just that that Jews may be used as 429 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 5: a cudgel. That goes back to the whole thing about 430 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 5: the Muslim band nine years ago. 431 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 4: Right, this is a long standing thing. 432 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 5: But it's also to attack the whole university system and 433 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 5: to attack higher education. And look, there's some there's some 434 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 5: level of irony here because Jews are are not unrepresented 435 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 5: in higher education and even in Colombia. I mean maybe 436 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 5: not historically, but if you if you are from New 437 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 5: York City or from Manhattan, Columbia is a pretty Jewish institution, 438 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 5: it kind of is. 439 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. But so there there is this and look there there. 440 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 5: You don't have to be there are there are There 441 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 5: are certainly Jews, even even Jewish liberals who who felt 442 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 5: some discomfort over some dimensions of the protest last year. 443 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 5: But again there is we are a cudgel being used 444 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 5: by people who are either very indifferent to the well 445 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 5: being of Jews or actively hostile in a lot of cases. 446 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 5: I mean we saw I don't. I just noticed it 447 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 5: this morning. But they have Tim Poole, he's part of 448 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 5: the press school. Now like what okay, like your your 449 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 5: this isn't there's as in everything else with Trump, there's 450 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 5: this this through line of gas lighting, through everything he does. 451 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 5: We're kind of like, we're we're not going to take 452 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 5: We're not going to take these these mean things to 453 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 5: the jew to the Jews. Meanwhile, I'm gonna go grab 454 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 5: a coffee with Nick Fuentes, you know, like what are 455 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 5: we talking about here? So it's it's it's it's the 456 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 5: whole it's the whole gas lighting of trump Ism. And 457 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 5: again it's it's just the idea of kind of like 458 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 5: we're a we're being you, we as Jews being used 459 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 5: as a convenient battering ram by people who do not 460 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 5: care about our well being but see us as having 461 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 5: a certain tactical a certain tactical use in a much 462 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 5: larger game that again is not tied to our well 463 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 5: being or safety or anything. 464 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 4: Else at all. 465 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's also it's just, yeah, they don't give 466 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: a fuck about us. 467 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 4: But that is a more distinct way of putting what 468 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 4: I said, very worthily. 469 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:47,719 Speaker 1: Sorry, I just I just as it's just a fucking 470 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: shit show. Sorry pride. But yeah, it's it's pretty dark. 471 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: And and I do want to say again, I do 472 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: get a ton of strength from my grandfather who was 473 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: jailed by who back I do. If he can do it, 474 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 1: we can do it. Well. 475 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 4: That's there are a lot of Look, there's a lot there. 476 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 5: There's definitely stuff right now that is unprecedented in American history. 477 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 5: But there are as you said, that is one of them. 478 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 5: Late nineteen forties, early nineteen fifties, and threw it into 479 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 5: the nineteen fifties with the kind of. 480 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 4: Extended red scare. 481 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 5: There are analogs in our in our past that people 482 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 5: who feel frightened. 483 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 4: Or a sense of we're in a new don. 484 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 5: We're not totally in a new don, because there are 485 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 5: the presidents and there are people. 486 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 4: This is other people who. 487 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: We'd lose our mind every couple decades. 488 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well we have. 489 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 5: It's good to have traditions, right, It's like everybody goes 490 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 5: to the Yeah. 491 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: Thank you, Josh, thank you, thank thank you. Anthony Walton 492 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: is the author of the End of Respectability and Mississippi 493 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: and American Journey Welcome Back, Too Fast Politics. Anthony Walton, 494 00:27:58,880 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: It's great to be here. 495 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 6: Thanks for having me on. 496 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you here. Let's talk about 497 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: the End of Respectability, Notes on a Black American reckoning 498 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 1: with his life and his nation. You just publish this 499 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 1: book and already the world is completely different, right, I mean, 500 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: talk to me about why you decided to write this. 501 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 6: First of all, I'd like to say that I think 502 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 6: that actually the world has come more toward the book 503 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 6: in the time since the publication and what's going on now. 504 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 6: When I finished the book, I couldn't help but wonder 505 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 6: is this too strong? Am I pushing too hard? And 506 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 6: if anything, now I think folks would say that it's 507 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 6: kind of timid, given what's happened in the last couple 508 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 6: of months. To go back to your specific question, I 509 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 6: wrote the book because I had started noticing things happening 510 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 6: the last ten years that were starting to trouble me. Now. 511 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 6: I have written a lot a long time about race 512 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 6: in the United States and the various sorts of issues 513 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 6: and contrademps things that come up, but I had had 514 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 6: a view that things were kind of getting better and 515 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 6: better and better. And with the election of Obama as 516 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 6: we saw in two thousand and eight, I even thought, hmm, 517 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 6: maybe we've turned a corner. And I should also add 518 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 6: that I was someone that thought Obama could not win, 519 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 6: so I was very pleasantly put in my place, and 520 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 6: I thought that that was a kind of moment of 521 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 6: achievement and even triumph that was a marker in American history. 522 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 6: What I didn't understand at the time, and what I 523 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 6: think a lot of Americans who would agree with me 524 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 6: about various things didn't understand at the time, was that 525 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 6: that would set off a backlash which would he have 526 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 6: seen really since twenty ten and since the Tea Party, 527 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 6: which has kind of snowballed since then into this what 528 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 6: we see now, this kind of trumpest attempt to almost 529 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 6: erase not only Black achievement, but in some ways black presence. 530 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 6: So as I thought about that over time, I decided 531 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 6: I wanted to gather my thoughts, and I gathered essays 532 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 6: that I had written as early as nineteen eighty nine, 533 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 6: and then I coupled those essays in the way that 534 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 6: say Joan Didion would with essays that I wrote just 535 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 6: last year, and put them together in a book that 536 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 6: I think kind of works as a narrative, even though 537 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 6: it is individual essays, but it shows a progress of thinking. 538 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 6: And one of the big ideas that I came up 539 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 6: with was this idea of the title the End of Respectability, 540 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 6: in which I thought that it was time for African 541 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 6: Americans to begin to think about who they were, where 542 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 6: they were, how things were working, including our history in 543 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 6: a different fashion, and the kind of headline way of 544 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 6: thinking of that is. I think in the past, particularly 545 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 6: from Martin Luther King days, we thought achievement would equal acceptance, 546 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 6: and I think that we are now seeing that that 547 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 6: is not going to be the case, and that we 548 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 6: have to decouple. 549 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: Them so interesting and important and also just this idea, 550 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: right that we could uncouple these two things. I'm using 551 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: scare quotes here, but the quote unquote war on woke 552 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: is actually just kind of a war on people who 553 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: are not white men. Ultimately right, Yes, I would agree, 554 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: and this orwellian removal of black people and people of 555 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: color from history, from websites and books. 556 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 4: You know. 557 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: One of the things I spend a lot of time 558 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: thinking about is like, what are the historical parallels to this? 559 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: And I'm curious, because you are an academic and a 560 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: really smart writer, what you think the historical parallels. 561 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 6: Are to this. I think that first of all, we 562 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 6: have to look at the history of our own country, 563 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 6: and in some ways this has been going on in 564 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 6: various manifestations since as early as, to use a buzzword, 565 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 6: sixteen nineteen. But we certainly saw it in the time 566 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 6: of the Revolution, when blacks were set aside and declared 567 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 6: three fifths of a person enslaved people were We saw 568 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 6: it all through the first half of the eighteen hundreds 569 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 6: leading up to the sol War. We saw it particularly 570 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 6: in the Crisis of eighteen seventy seventy eighteen seventy eight 571 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 6: when Rutherford B. Hayes, in order to assume the presidency, 572 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 6: agreed to take the Union soldiers out of the South 573 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 6: and end Reconstruction what I and others would think of 574 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 6: as the first Reconstruction, and let the forces of white power, 575 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 6: white supremacy reassert themselves. And that led to what we 576 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 6: commonly referred to as Jim Crow. We've seen, for example, 577 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 6: just little things like the lack of acknowledgment of black 578 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 6: soldiers in World War One and World War Two. We 579 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 6: have seen denial of medals. That's one of the things 580 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 6: that is most interesting to me, is trying to deny 581 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 6: the heroism of black soldiers. We see this again. I mean, 582 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 6: we kind of saw the preper of this the last 583 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 6: four or five years with some of the things going 584 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 6: on in places like Florida and Oklahoma, where that trumped 585 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 6: up issue of CRT critical race theory was brought to 586 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 6: four to try and say that black history couldn't be 587 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 6: taught and in a different way and on a lower 588 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 6: kind of intellectual plane, this idea that white children should 589 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 6: not be made to feel guilty, so nothing should be 590 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,399 Speaker 6: taught about what happened in the past, because it's too 591 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 6: distressing to young white children to look at a more 592 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 6: broad issue. I mean, of course, you have saw that 593 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 6: in the Soviet times, where people would be taken out 594 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 6: of photographs, you know, if they fell a stray of 595 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 6: Stalin or whoever was in power in the Communist Party. 596 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 6: We saw the kind of actual physical erasure, not just 597 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,919 Speaker 6: cultural RACI physical erasure of people during the Holocaust. I mean, 598 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 6: this is not anything new. I think that you even 599 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 6: see it now in Hungary, for example, and I think 600 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 6: that it's the sort of thing that it is really frightening, 601 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 6: It's really kind of unfair. One of the things I'm 602 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 6: talking about in the book The End of Respectability is 603 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 6: what else could African Americans have done to illustrate their loyalty, 604 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 6: their desire to participate, They're wanting to be part of 605 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 6: the mainstream. In that title essay, I write about the 606 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 6: story of my parents who did everything that they could 607 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 6: do to participate in society and taught me and my 608 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 6: siblings to do the same. And then my parents, I 609 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 6: think that might be the event that got me most 610 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 6: thinking about all of this was my parents both died 611 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 6: in a two thousand eighteen and they died under Trump. 612 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 6: And it particularly bothered my father because he was a 613 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 6: Korean veteran Air Force he had been in a strategic 614 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 6: Air command and he felt and this is someone that 615 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 6: was born in Mississippi in a great depression and he 616 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 6: had been very proud of his life and what he 617 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 6: had done and then to be kind of psychically assaulted 618 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 6: by the sorts of things that were going on even 619 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 6: then that we now see a kind of full blossom 620 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 6: that just got me thinking of this is not adding up. 621 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really good point. 622 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: And it speaks very much to this idea that the 623 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: game was always ragged, right, So it was always this 624 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 1: thumb on the scale when it came to the African 625 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: American experience in this country. What I'm struck by is 626 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: this idea that we are living in these incredibly tight 627 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: little back backlashes to periods. Right, so Trump gets elected 628 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: me too, Like you could see how the second Trump 629 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: administration is largely a rebuke of me too. Right. I 630 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,919 Speaker 1: think of the head of the Department of Defense, right, 631 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: who had a subpoena from his sister in law, Right, 632 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: his ex sister in law saying that the wife had 633 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,399 Speaker 1: a safe word, right. So we are in these accelerated 634 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: cycles of backlash. I wonder if you could sort of 635 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: talk through how you see that it doesn't feel like 636 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: there's a president For. 637 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 6: That, I would have to know a little bit more. 638 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 6: You'd have to tighten up a little bit on the 639 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 6: word precedent, because I think there has always been backlash 640 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 6: to any African American advance. I think of, for example, 641 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 6: the backlash after the Civil War. You could look at 642 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 6: things that were happening in Boston in the eighteen ten 643 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 6: in eighteen twenties, things that have a kind of residence 644 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 6: and residue until today. You could look at what happened 645 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 6: right after World War Two. First of all World War One. 646 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 6: Thus there was the riots and conflicts in nineteen nineteen 647 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 6: in all the major cities. World War Two, an especially 648 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:22,399 Speaker 6: kind of plangent incident was Isaac Woodard, black soldier who 649 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 6: had come back from World War to very proud wearing 650 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,879 Speaker 6: his uniform, and he was attacked and blinded by white 651 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 6: supremacist as a kind of way of saying, no, we 652 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 6: don't have to respect you, we don't have to honor you. 653 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 6: I think that we saw it in the Nixon campaign, 654 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 6: particularly of nineteen sixty eight. We saw it in nineteen 655 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 6: eighty Reagan announcing his campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi. You know 656 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 6: what happened there, Schwerner, Cheney and Goodman. So of all 657 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 6: the places in the United States for Ronald Reagan to 658 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 6: start a presidential campaign, why would he go there. We 659 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 6: saw it with Willie Horton. We saw it certainly Charlottesville. 660 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 6: There is always a backlash to any kind of black advancement, 661 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 6: and I would add women advancement. There's this kind of 662 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 6: boiling hostility all the time against Jewish people that comes 663 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 6: to the fore and recedes from time to time to time. 664 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 6: And I think that in the end it becomes an 665 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 6: indictment of the Republican Party Beyond Donald Trump. The Republicans 666 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 6: have been doing this in a kind of organized manner, 667 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 6: at least since nineteen sixty four, I would say, and 668 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 6: you know, Rick Perlman has laid this out in his 669 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 6: books great profound detail. I think that what we just 670 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 6: have now is just kind of the apotheosis of this 671 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 6: thing that has been growing. And I would direct folks 672 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 6: to the last paragraph of my essay Willie Horton and 673 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 6: me the first essay in my book, which was in 674 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 6: the New York Times in nineteen eighty nine, where I 675 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 6: talked about how if we don't do something about this, 676 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,720 Speaker 6: it is going to haunt us our dreams, referencing doctor 677 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 6: King wherever. And I think that we've just seen this. 678 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 6: I think it has political salience to the Republicans. There 679 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 6: is a certain group and I don't know what percentage 680 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 6: it is, but they're base, as they're always referred to. 681 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 6: They want this, they need it, and it allows Republicans 682 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 6: to kind of start with a certain amount of votes 683 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,840 Speaker 6: and they feed it and accelerate it. And it's just 684 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 6: part of American society now, I should say. On the 685 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 6: other hand, we can't oversimplify. And that's something else I 686 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 6: talk about in a book that I I mean, the 687 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,800 Speaker 6: way I think of it is hashtag not all white folks, 688 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 6: because I don't think all white people are part of that. 689 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 6: But I do think the white people who are not 690 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 6: part of that are kind of going to have to 691 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 6: decide what side they're on and are going to have 692 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 6: to join. And in some ways that's the Obama coalition 693 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:21,919 Speaker 6: if you think about it. And I think that might 694 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 6: be part of the violence of the backlash after Obama. 695 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 6: But it's something that's just kind of been there. I mean, 696 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 6: one more thing, sorry to drone on about this pot. 697 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 6: If we think about even going back to the thirties, 698 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 6: the attacks on Social Security when it was put in 699 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 6: the way that farm workers and domestic workers were left 700 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 6: out of it, who was that In the thirties, we 701 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 6: think about the various kinds of attacks on minorities and 702 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 6: quote unquote foreigners by the Coughlin, the priests and Joe McCarthy. 703 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 6: You know. I write about William F. Buckley in the 704 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 6: book and talk about his thing, including some things he 705 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 6: did in the fifties that were overlooked when he became 706 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,320 Speaker 6: the man about town of the seventies and the eighties. 707 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 6: It's just kind of always been there. And what we 708 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 6: see now, I think is Obama coupled with a sense 709 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 6: of demographic change that is frightening to people who don't 710 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 6: live it. If you're sitting out in a small town 711 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 6: in Kansas, you don't see that what's going on in 712 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 6: Chicago or New York City or Los Angeles for whatever. 713 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 6: It is basically kind of working, you know, it has 714 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 6: its problems, but folks are getting used to it and 715 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 6: even kind of enjoying it. But you know the other thing, 716 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,240 Speaker 6: I would add Fox News, and so it's just kind 717 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 6: of a perfect storm of jinning up this kind of backlash. 718 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 6: And I'd also point to Professor Linda Anderson at Emory. 719 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 6: Her book White Backlash goes into this in great detail 720 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 6: and as a way of learning about it. It's just 721 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 6: kind of always been there, and I think we've just 722 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 6: come to a kind of crisis moment that is extremely difficult. 723 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 6: I'd be the first person to admit that. 724 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Anthony. I hope he'll come back. 725 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 6: Oh, I'd love to. It's an honor to be here 726 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 6: and a great pleasure. 727 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 4: A moment. 728 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 2: Jesse Cannon Molly, It's wild this type of stuff that 729 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 2: Trump has gone after so early in his first one 730 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 2: hundred days, and so much of it seems to be 731 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 2: let the corruption run wild. And for some reason, also 732 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 2: what the human trafficking run wild? I thought this was 733 00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 2: the Qann president. 734 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, you really do see me. Look in their defense, 735 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,839 Speaker 1: they're very into child labor, so they love to get 736 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: kids working. So Trump cuts in sixty nine global programs 737 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: tackling child labor and human trafficking. They are very unseerious 738 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: about human trafficking, but they really do. There are a 739 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: lot of Koch Brothers style companies that love to employed children. 740 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: They're cheap, they're small, they can get in the chimneys 741 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 1: really well. And so the Washington Post obtained an email 742 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 1: detailing how the US Department of Labor Bureau of International 743 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: Labor Affairs will immediately end grants totally more than five 744 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,840 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars that support labor standard enforcement over forty countries. 745 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,959 Speaker 1: And again, these are like these dumb things where they're 746 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: cutting money, just like with the NIH grants, they're cutting 747 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 1: science that could help us later for a little bit 748 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,720 Speaker 1: of money for a tax cut for very rich people. 749 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 1: And it's just dumb. It's full, it'll end up costing 750 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: more later, and it's just exactly what you know. It's 751 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: what these people do. It's who they are. You know, 752 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 1: when people tell you who they are, believe them. That's 753 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, 754 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics 755 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 1: make sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast, 756 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,800 Speaker 1: Please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. 757 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:34,360 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.