Speaker 1: There's no sleeping.
Speaker 2: I think that's usually the first question I get is
Speaker 2: do you get to sleep during ultra durance running events?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, no, not. If you're trying to finish
Speaker 2: within the time limit, you run through the night.
Speaker 3: Eo Wang is a competitive runner currently training to compete
Speaker 3: this fall in the JFK fifty mile ultra Marathon. The
Speaker 3: race route spans over one thousand feet in elevation along
Speaker 3: a mountainous and rocky section of the Appalachian Trail. It
Speaker 3: horseshoes along the Cno Canal Towpath before ending in historic
Speaker 3: Williamsport on the border of Maryland and West Virginia. You
Speaker 3: know the best way.
Speaker 2: To warm up start running.
Speaker 3: While the varied terrain of this course makes for an
Speaker 3: intense and arduous race, fifty miles is not the longest
Speaker 3: distance for an ultra marathon, nor is it the longest
Speaker 3: raised Eo has ever competed in. But running long distances
Speaker 3: is just part of the training program. These ultra endurance
Speaker 3: athletes have to think about the whole picture. When you're
Speaker 3: pushing your body to the max, you've got to think
Speaker 3: about physical endurance, mental strength, nutrition, and most importantly sleep
Speaker 3: in order for EO and runners like her to keep
Speaker 3: going mile after mile, Sleep must be a part of
Speaker 3: a winning plan.
Speaker 2: It can be almost four miles to go all the
Speaker 2: way to the top of the hill to our little
Speaker 2: single attack book and come back.
Speaker 3: I'm Anahad O'Connor and this is Chasing Sleep and iHeartRadio
Speaker 3: production in partnership with Mattress Firm. As a best selling
Speaker 3: author and a health columnist with the background in psychology,
Speaker 3: I've spent a lot of my time studying and writing
Speaker 3: about sleep. Sleep is so essential to our overall health,
Speaker 3: but often it's something we overlook, and it's the first
Speaker 3: thing we tend to neglect. In each episod, we'll meet
Speaker 3: people living and working in extraordinary circumstances. I want to
Speaker 3: learn how they rest and recharge their bodies and minds
Speaker 3: to perform at their best, whether it's an ultra marathon
Speaker 3: or training for their next one hundred miles, or an
Speaker 3: astronaut floating in space. Together, we'll explore the unique challenges
Speaker 3: they encounter and uncover the universal secrets to a RESTful
Speaker 3: night of sleep, no matter the environment or occupational hazards. Today,
Speaker 3: we'll look at the roles sleep plays and training for intents,
Speaker 3: endurance competitions, and the symbiotic relationship between sleep and physical fitness.
Speaker 3: Plus we'll discover which is more important an early morning
Speaker 3: workout or an extra hour of sleep.
Speaker 2: My name is Eo Wang. I'm a professional trail and ultrarunner,
Speaker 2: and I'm also a.
Speaker 1: Teacher throughout the summer.
Speaker 3: Eos darts the day with a cup of coffee and
Speaker 3: then heads out to the trails for a run. And
Speaker 3: she's not the only one. According to a twenty twenty
Speaker 3: report from the Sports and Fitness Industry Association, about fifty
Speaker 3: million Americans take part in running or jogging.
Speaker 1: After competing in both the twenty twelve and twenty twenty.
Speaker 3: Olympic Marathon trials, Eo now has her sights on becoming
Speaker 3: one of the top ten women in a globally recognized
Speaker 3: ultra marathon. She has already won the Lake Sonoma fifty
Speaker 3: mile race in twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen. But people
Speaker 3: aren't born ultra marathoners, and she wasn't even always a runner.
Speaker 1: It took her some time to find her rhythm in
Speaker 1: the sport.
Speaker 2: I started running when I went to college at MIT,
Speaker 2: and I spectated my first Boston Marathon as a freshman,
Speaker 2: I got so inspired by what I was seeing happening
Speaker 2: in front of me. I was not a runner at
Speaker 2: the time. I did not think of myself as being
Speaker 2: athletic in any way, so it was kind of a
Speaker 2: personal quest and challenge to work on doing sports. And
Speaker 2: I kind of just got hooked on the process of
Speaker 2: trying to run a bit longer each day. And this
Speaker 2: idea that you know, working towards a running goal means
Speaker 2: you have to be consistent and train and develop fitness
Speaker 2: over time. So I remember training for my first five k,
Speaker 2: and then once I got the five k under my belt,
Speaker 2: moving to longer and longer distances, eventually a half marathon
Speaker 2: and then a full marathon. And I just kept going
Speaker 2: back for a few years doing Boston, setting goals for
Speaker 2: myself of trying to run a little.
Speaker 3: Bit faster each year.
Speaker 2: I ran fast enough to qualify for the trials in
Speaker 2: twenty twelve in the marathon. I've run a lot of
Speaker 2: fifty k, fifty milers, and one hundred milers since then.
Speaker 3: Wait, did you just say one hundred miles.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a one hundred mile race called the Western
Speaker 2: States hundred miler, which claims to be the oldest hundred
Speaker 2: miler around. Some people might dispute that, but I think
Speaker 2: officially on record, it is the oldest organized hundred miler.
Speaker 2: It's a race that starts in Squaw and ends in Auburn, California,
Speaker 2: and it just attracts a very competitive field each year
Speaker 2: and has worked its way to being one of the
Speaker 2: marquee ultra endurance running events.
Speaker 3: Her average finished time for one hundred mile race is
Speaker 3: around twenty two hours, and she's running straight through that
Speaker 3: entire time, no sleeping, just running for twenty two hours.
Speaker 3: Think about your day yesterday and now imagine if you
Speaker 3: were on your feet running almost every single minute of it.
Speaker 3: If you're wondering how it's even humanly possible to do this,
Speaker 3: trust me, I'm right there with you.
Speaker 1: So how exactly do you manage to keep going and
Speaker 1: stay awake through it all?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So the human body is a remarkable thing. You know.
Speaker 2: Think about the times when you've had to stay up
Speaker 2: really late, if it's really important or really exciting, or like,
Speaker 2: you know, you're stuck at a layover on an airport,
Speaker 2: and you amaze yourself by how many hours you can
Speaker 2: stay up without going to sleep. It's kind of the
Speaker 2: same thing because you're running on like so much adrenaline
Speaker 2: and like crazy stress hormones and like this fight or
Speaker 2: flight response, and that carries you through for a remarkably
Speaker 2: long time, for very long events. Right afterwards, there is
Speaker 2: a point at which you tend to crash. I would
Speaker 2: say it takes me of solid forty eight hours to
Speaker 2: come down and like crash. And it's really day two
Speaker 2: through seven after the race is when I can't move.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna lay in bed all day or I
Speaker 2: want to Anyway.
Speaker 3: As someone who loves to dig into the science and
Speaker 3: research of how our bodies work, EO's training plan and
Speaker 3: her approach to sleep got me thinking what role does
Speaker 3: sleep actually play in our physical performance and how can
Speaker 3: we use sleep as a training tool for strength and
Speaker 3: endurance competitions. I decided to call up neurophysiologist and brain
Speaker 3: coach to elite athletes, Louisa Nicola. Not only is Louisa
Speaker 3: an expert on sleep as it relates to athletic performance,
Speaker 3: but she was also once a triathlete who competed at
Speaker 3: some of the highest levels.
Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Louisa Nicola. I'm a neurophysiologist and brain coach
Speaker 4: to elite performers. I raised for Australia, I qualified for
Speaker 4: Beijing and London, and I also went to med school
Speaker 4: and I became obsessed with human brain and I realized
Speaker 4: that during my training spoke to me about sleep. In fact,
Speaker 4: he was really against sleep. He basically said, you should
Speaker 4: be training and you sleep when you're dead. And I
Speaker 4: think a lot of people were thinking that. And this
Speaker 4: was going back, you know, before twenty twelve, which is
Speaker 4: when I retired from triathlon, and I always felt as
Speaker 4: though there had to be more to human performance. There
Speaker 4: had to be more to performance on the field and
Speaker 4: athletic performance than just training, training the body and training
Speaker 4: the tactics and technical side. There had to be more,
Speaker 4: and that's when I became obsessed with understanding human physiology.
Speaker 3: She founded her company Neuroathletics in twenty sixteen and dedicated
Speaker 3: herself to combining the science of neurology with athletic performance.
Speaker 3: Luisa knows all about the importance of sleep for elite
Speaker 3: athletes like EO, and explains that sleep will shift and
Speaker 3: change depending on where someone is in her training. According
Speaker 3: to her, there will be training periods whereas much as
Speaker 3: twelve hours of sleep is completely normal.
Speaker 4: So sleep should change throughout your training schedule. So when
Speaker 4: we look at periodization, Okay, you've got a block of
Speaker 4: where you're just doing a lot of build work, which
Speaker 4: is you're just building on endurance and you're doing a
Speaker 4: lot and a lot of long distance and hard hard work.
Speaker 4: This means that the body, both the body and the brain,
Speaker 4: needs a lot more time to recuperate and regenerate, so sleeping.
Speaker 4: If I knew this back then, we'd need to adjust
Speaker 4: our sleep schedules to be sleeping if we can a
Speaker 4: bit longer, okay, Whereas if we are doing short bouts
Speaker 4: of intense work, our sleep may not have to be
Speaker 4: as long. If you think of Roger Federer or Lebron James,
Speaker 4: they are both renowned for sleeping twelve hours a night,
Speaker 4: But when you couple this with the amount of training
Speaker 4: that they do, it makes sense that they're sleeping because
Speaker 4: they're working out anywhere from four to five hours a day,
Speaker 4: so it makes sense. However, they don't sleep twelve hours
Speaker 4: a night during their competition phases because they're not training,
Speaker 4: they're just competing. So Basically, the general rule is the
Speaker 4: more activity exerted during the day, the longer and better
Speaker 4: quality the sleep needs to be.
Speaker 3: So if a professional basketball player is sleeping twelve hours
Speaker 3: a night, training for four to five hours a day,
Speaker 3: and that's their full time job, what does training and
Speaker 3: recovery look like for EO who's competing to run fifty
Speaker 3: plus miles and working as an elementary school teacher during
Speaker 3: the day.
Speaker 2: I think most of my running is constrained by work hours. Currently,
Speaker 2: my ideal schedule would be sleeping till like seven and
Speaker 2: then wake up, have coffee, roll out for run around
Speaker 2: eight thirty and nine, be done around brunch time, have
Speaker 2: an afternoon nap, maybe do an evening walk for like
Speaker 2: active recovery or a double session. That's the dream of
Speaker 2: like the absolute pro runner lifestyle. But during the school year,
Speaker 2: I have to be at school at eight am, which
Speaker 2: makes morning runs challenging, and that means I have to
Speaker 2: get up at five am and get out running by
Speaker 2: six am, be done by seven seven thirty, and then
Speaker 2: get to school. I just become completely wiped out by
Speaker 2: like ten am, and you're like, there's still four more
Speaker 2: hours of school. So these days I tend to be
Speaker 2: a little bit gentler on myself as far as when
Speaker 2: I fit the run in. I know always that like
Speaker 2: if I try to get up in the morning and
Speaker 2: do it, I might be able to run a little
Speaker 2: bit faster or get a bit more quality run in
Speaker 2: the morning, but that means I am sacrificing my sleep,
Speaker 2: because no matter how hard you try, it's really hard
Speaker 2: to go to bed at nine, so you can get
Speaker 2: up at five. I think what's key to preparing for
Speaker 2: an ultra is this idea of training specific systems, kind
Speaker 2: of a time on feet approach, where you go into
Speaker 2: some of your long runs already tired from the week
Speaker 2: of training that you did. I like to have at
Speaker 2: least a couple weekends where I am running at least
Speaker 2: three hours Saturday and Sunday back to back, and one
Speaker 2: of those might actually have faster efforts, harder efforts in there,
Speaker 2: so that you get used to running hard when you're tired.
Speaker 2: And it's kind of about fatigue management because there's a
Speaker 2: lot of things that you can get away with when
Speaker 2: you're running and racing for two and a half to
Speaker 2: three hours versus like four to seven hours.
Speaker 3: So EO very strategically spends about two to three hours
Speaker 3: a day training and working to mimic the fatigue she experience.
Speaker 3: Isn't a race, and we know some of her races
Speaker 3: keep her awake for at least twenty four hours, but
Speaker 3: what does she think about sleep during training periods?
Speaker 2: It's essential in order to not get injured and not
Speaker 2: burn out. Sleep is a great indicator of your overall
Speaker 2: well being and also usually one of the first signs
Speaker 2: of overtraining is a noticeable decline in sleep quality and quantity.
Speaker 2: So you fall into this vicious cycle where you are fatigued,
Speaker 2: but your body is so hyped up on the stress
Speaker 2: hormones that you can't actually get enough sleep. And so
Speaker 2: one of the early signs that we need to be
Speaker 2: careful of is like, if we notice that we're consistently
Speaker 2: sleeping poorly, it's definitely a sign that we're on the
Speaker 2: road to getting overtrained, which is this chronic state of
Speaker 2: lack of recovery for your body when you are pushing
Speaker 2: your body through the hardest weeks of training. A lot
Speaker 2: of times we as athletes want to know what's the
Speaker 2: secret to performance, and a lot of times the answer
Speaker 2: is just get more rest and get more recovery, Like
Speaker 2: ninety percent of your gains can be made if you
Speaker 2: just sleep more.
Speaker 3: We know that sleep plays a major role in keeping
Speaker 3: our bodies healthy and free of injuries during intense training
Speaker 3: and competition, but can it help us run faster or further?
Speaker 4: As a ne're a physiologist, we had to go in
Speaker 4: and do a lot of sleep studies. So we'd go
Speaker 4: into a lab and we'd assess apation maybe if they're
Speaker 4: having any type of sleep disturbances. So it gives you
Speaker 4: a real life picture of what sleep is, and it's
Speaker 4: very much comprised of more than just putting your head
Speaker 4: on appeal and waking up eight hours later if you're lucky.
Speaker 4: It's very intricate and it houses a lot of physiology.
Speaker 4: So we have four stages of sleep, and each stage
Speaker 4: is very important. We've really got two main stages, which
Speaker 4: is rem sleep and non rem sleep. But when we
Speaker 4: have a look into these two stages, okay, when we
Speaker 4: look at this non rem sleep stage, we have light
Speaker 4: sleep and deep sleep, and this deep sleep stage it's
Speaker 4: really stages three and four, so it happens towards the
Speaker 4: end of the night.
Speaker 1: This deep sleep stage.
Speaker 4: Is really responsible for the secretion of a lot of
Speaker 4: hormones such as our growth hormone, and this is responsible
Speaker 4: for regeneration of muscle tissue. Muscle protein synthesis happens during
Speaker 4: the stage, so we get a more well rounded recovery.
Speaker 4: We see a lot of players during the NBA playoffs,
Speaker 4: for example, not being able to recover and a lot
Speaker 4: of them getting sick because they have been deprived of sleep.
Speaker 4: When it comes to ball sports such as the NBA,
Speaker 4: we see that shooting accuracy isn't as high if you've
Speaker 4: deprived a player of sleep, even at a mere two hours.
Speaker 4: So if they've slept six hours compared to eight hours,
Speaker 4: their shooting accuracy is down by at least thirty percent,
Speaker 4: and that is huge because every single point matters. So
Speaker 4: if you're taking a marathon runner, for example, and you've
Speaker 4: deprived them of sleep, they're going to be more prone
Speaker 4: to injury, they're going to be more fatigued, and in fact,
Speaker 4: their rate of perceived exertion is not going to be
Speaker 4: as high. There's one wonderful study that was done actually
Speaker 4: on sleep deprivation and endurance athletes show that the first
Speaker 4: thing that happens is their ability to keep pushing is dampened.
Speaker 4: So if they can usually run ten miles, let's just
Speaker 4: say at ease, if they've deprived themselves of sleep, they're
Speaker 4: probably going to get to maybe the six or seven miles,
Speaker 4: and their mind is going to start playing games and
Speaker 4: start saying, oh my god, I'm tired, I'm fatigued, I
Speaker 4: don't want to go that far. You don't have to
Speaker 4: go that far, just stop, just go a bit slower.
Speaker 4: And it's those mind games. And so that's incredibly important too.
Speaker 4: And I realized that, Wow, if I only optimized my
Speaker 4: sleep back when I was an elite athlete, or back
Speaker 4: when I was training over thirty hours a week, and
Speaker 4: if I had understood this, understood the science behind sleep,
Speaker 4: then I probably would have been a better athlete. I
Speaker 4: probably my last race, I came thirteenth, and I think
Speaker 4: that if I knew what I knew back then like
Speaker 4: what I know today, then maybe I would have come
Speaker 4: on a podium, finished top three.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after a brief message from our
Speaker 3: partners at Mattress Firm.
Speaker 1: And now back to chasing sleep.
Speaker 3: Now. I'm certainly no elite runner in some five k's
Speaker 3: and one or two ten K's two, and I generally
Speaker 3: try to keep up an exercise routine. But learning about
Speaker 3: all of the science that goes into sleep for training
Speaker 3: athletes has me thinking a lot about my own workouts
Speaker 3: and sleep habits. Sleep matters to our performance physically in
Speaker 3: a race or at the gym. It's undeniable, But is
Speaker 3: that the end of the relationship between sleep and athletic prowess?
Speaker 3: In addition to all of this, is it possible that
Speaker 3: I'm also sleeping better because I'm keeping up a regular
Speaker 3: exercise routine too.
Speaker 4: We've all got this one thing humans in common. It's
Speaker 4: called our human nervous system. Okay, It's comprised of the
Speaker 4: central nervous system and the peripheral nervous system. And what
Speaker 4: happens is we want to be in both the sympathetic
Speaker 4: nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system. And training and
Speaker 4: exercising and physical activity is going to be good for
Speaker 4: kudiovascular health, and it's going to be good for overall
Speaker 4: sleep quality. If we're not training, it's definitely not going
Speaker 4: to be good for the amount of hours that we
Speaker 4: sleep at night. And there's also something called sleep pressure
Speaker 4: that builds up during the day. And this happens with me.
Speaker 4: I find that if I haven't exerted the amount of energy,
Speaker 4: or I haven't gone out and gotten sunlight, I find
Speaker 4: it hard to fall asleep that night. I'm tossing, I'm turning.
Speaker 4: It's like I haven't gotten rid of a lot of
Speaker 4: the energy that I've got accumulated. So physical activity during
Speaker 4: the day of any type is very beneficial for sleep quality.
Speaker 3: Louisa says, we should also think about the time of
Speaker 3: day you're working out so that we can make the
Speaker 3: most of our sleep.
Speaker 1: And avoid interrupting our hormonal rhythms.
Speaker 4: The best time for training is the furthest away from
Speaker 4: sleep as you can get. So when we are training,
Speaker 4: when we wake up, we've got this surge of cortisol, okay,
Speaker 4: and you really want to go out and you want
Speaker 4: to do things. And that's honestly the best time to train.
Speaker 4: Whether you're eating beforehand on alftand I'm not talking about that,
Speaker 4: but the best time to train is at least six
Speaker 4: hours away from sleep, because what happens if you do
Speaker 4: train close to sleep, you're going to have this increasing
Speaker 4: quartersol and as free quartersol just roaming through your body.
Speaker 4: This happens for the next two hours after exercise as well,
Speaker 4: and cortisole doesn't help you sleep. It competes with the
Speaker 4: sleepiness hormones. So this is going to prevent you from
Speaker 4: kind of relaxing and settling your mind down and settling
Speaker 4: your body down to get into sleep. So the best
Speaker 4: time to train for sleep quality would be in the
Speaker 4: morning or mid morning.
Speaker 3: And if you find yourself wavering between an extra hour
Speaker 3: or so of sleep or getting up to hit the
Speaker 3: trail or the gym some mornings, Luisa says, our heart
Speaker 3: rate variability or HRV can be an important guide in
Speaker 3: determining what our bodies need and what they're ready to
Speaker 3: handle at any moment.
Speaker 4: Should you sacrifice sleep and train or should you sacrifice
Speaker 4: training and sleep? And a really good predictor of this
Speaker 4: is heart rate variability. Almost everybody now who is training
Speaker 4: has access to a wearable and wearable data, and if
Speaker 4: you look on this wearable data, it comes up with
Speaker 4: this measurement every day and it's called a heart rate variability. Oftentimes,
Speaker 4: we can wake up every morning and we can feel
Speaker 4: a bit lethargic, okay, and we may not feel good,
Speaker 4: and you look at your HRV and maybe it's if
Speaker 4: it's usually at let's just say for argument's sake, you
Speaker 4: peak at one hundred every day, but you woke up
Speaker 4: today and it was fifty. That would mean that your
Speaker 4: body isn't well rested and your recovery index isn't that high. Therefore,
Speaker 4: the best thing for you to do in terms of
Speaker 4: long term athletic performance and in terms of overall health,
Speaker 4: the best thing for you to do that day would
Speaker 4: be to go really easy and capitalize on sleep. Whereas
Speaker 4: if you wake up and your HRV let's just say
Speaker 4: it's at one hundred, or maybe it's at one hundred
Speaker 4: and ten, and usually your baseline is one hundred, then
Speaker 4: you have room to go through and do a bit
Speaker 4: of extra hard work that day. And HRV is a
Speaker 4: really great predictor of overall performance recovery. So that's how
Speaker 4: I would judge them. So, if you're going out and
Speaker 4: you really want to learn about your body, you really
Speaker 4: want to learn about your own metrics and your own data,
Speaker 4: the best thing to do would be to have a
Speaker 4: look at your HLB and you know, predict it that way.
Speaker 2: I think before the race it's important to not obsess
Speaker 2: about the night before, because it's really about your two
Speaker 2: to three nights before the night before. Because you know
Speaker 2: we talked earlier about your body can go for twenty
Speaker 2: four hours straight with no problem. So think about it
Speaker 2: as like, say your race is Saturday, your Thursday night
Speaker 2: sleep is going to get you through even if you
Speaker 2: can't sleep Friday night. And a lot of people, myself included,
Speaker 2: tend to not be able to sleep that well the
Speaker 2: night before because you're often doing your last minute preparation.
Speaker 2: You're nervous, you're thinking about the morning, and the more
Speaker 2: you think about sleep, the less you're able to sleep.
Speaker 2: You often have to get up early to you know,
Speaker 2: get to the race and do all your pre race
Speaker 2: stuff anyway, so it's really the two to three days
Speaker 2: before the night before the race that are key.
Speaker 3: Eo has spent the last several years fine tuning the
Speaker 3: way she runs and sleeps to maximize what her body
Speaker 3: and mind can accomplish on race day, whether it's a
Speaker 3: cup of coffee in the morning or a sleep.
Speaker 1: Cash that night. Eo says that consistency is key.
Speaker 3: For any level of running or fitness routine, even if
Speaker 3: you're just getting started.
Speaker 2: I think my best piece of advice would just be
Speaker 2: to be consistent and establish a routine. It's not about
Speaker 2: doing as much as you can all at once right
Speaker 2: at the start, because you will, you know, burn out.
Speaker 2: I think it's about doing something every day and sticking
Speaker 2: to that routine and also making sure that you don't
Speaker 2: sacrifice things like recovery, nutrition, and sleep. There are a
Speaker 2: lot of people who start a fitness journey and they're like, Oh,
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to the gym every day at
Speaker 2: five am in the morning before work. Like, that's great
Speaker 2: if you're also able to get enough sleep to like
Speaker 2: support that kind of schedule. If it's going to be
Speaker 2: detrimental to you getting your sleep and you're going to
Speaker 2: be drinking ten cups of coffee every day, like maybe
Speaker 2: kind of rethink where that can fit in your day,
Speaker 2: or maybe it slides in later in the day, maybe
Speaker 2: it slides in the middle of the day. Sleep is
Speaker 2: really important.
Speaker 1: That's all for this episode.
Speaker 3: Don't forget to join me again next week, when we
Speaker 3: learn about how a journalist chases and finds healthy sleep
Speaker 3: through breaking news and the type deadlines at the twenty
Speaker 3: four hour news cycle.
Speaker 5: Now you're trying to unplug from showtime mode, and you're
Speaker 5: trying to tell your body worktime is over and now
Speaker 5: it's time to relax and unwind and go to sleep,
Speaker 5: and your body's still in go mode.
Speaker 1: We want to hear from you.
Speaker 3: Leave a rating or review for our show on your
Speaker 3: podcast player of choice.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Anahad O'Connor.
Speaker 3: Until next time, Hoping you're living your best while sleeping
Speaker 3: your best.
Speaker 1: Chasing Sleep is.
Speaker 3: A production of iHeartRadio in partnership with Mattress Firm. Our
Speaker 3: executive producer is Molly Sosha, our EP of post is
Speaker 3: Matt Stillo, our producer is Sierra Kaiser, and this show
Speaker 3: is hosted by Annahad O'Connor