WEBVTT - Tim "The Lawyer" Sandefur Talks to Armstrong & Getty, Part 3

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<v Speaker 1>six zero three for complete details. The Armstrong and Getty Show, Andy,

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<v Speaker 1>they we're talking with Tim and the lawyer Tim Sanderfer,

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<v Speaker 1>who is joining us on the Armstrong and Getty Show

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<v Speaker 1>as he has for thirteen years, he claims, which is

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<v Speaker 1>a long time. Started as a caller fact check back

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<v Speaker 1>when you used to have calls. Of course, that was

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<v Speaker 1>also because they hadn't yet invented text messaging. So you

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<v Speaker 1>consider yourself a libertarian? Yes, and um, so I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to ask you this. We were talking about this leer.

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<v Speaker 1>There was an opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal

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<v Speaker 1>about the way we've um calculate income inequality, which ends

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<v Speaker 1>up being the talking points for a lot of programs

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<v Speaker 1>for wealth redistribution, and they use um, I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>if you heard us talking about, but that's what the

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<v Speaker 1>argument was. You take somebody who makes a million dollars

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<v Speaker 1>and you say, Okay, that person has a million dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>You don't say, well, they actually have five hundred thousand

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<v Speaker 1>dollars after taxes. And then you take someone he makes

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<v Speaker 1>four thousand dollars a year and you say they've got

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<v Speaker 1>four thousand dollars. You don't actually say, well, they've got

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<v Speaker 1>sixty dollars, because that's how much they have after they

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<v Speaker 1>get all the programs they qualify for. And so we

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<v Speaker 1>were not comparing the actual realities. And I was just wondering, um,

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<v Speaker 1>from the libertarian sort of point of view, or for

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<v Speaker 1>just from a freedom point of view, what the Founding

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<v Speaker 1>fathers would have wanted how much wealth risk redistributions read

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<v Speaker 1>spreading money around should we be willing to accept? Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>in principle none? Uh? In reality, well, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>would you say, would you say none? So the Founding

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<v Speaker 1>Fathers were quite clear that, as the Federalist Papers says

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<v Speaker 1>that the equal protection of unequal ability is the first

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<v Speaker 1>rule of government. And the problem is that if you

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<v Speaker 1>have a redistributionary state, it will not be the equal

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<v Speaker 1>protection of unequal abilities. It will be the unequal protection.

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<v Speaker 1>It will be the It will be taking from some

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<v Speaker 1>who have justly earned those things or justly own those things,

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<v Speaker 1>and giving them to people who don't. And that is

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<v Speaker 1>inherently a violent act. Confiscation by the state is an

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<v Speaker 1>inherently violent act, whether it's done politely through the form

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<v Speaker 1>of bureaucracy or not. In the end, what you're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about is government forcibly taking things that rightly belong to

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<v Speaker 1>people and giving them to those things to other people

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<v Speaker 1>in the service of some vision of the ideal state.

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<v Speaker 1>And you're right about this, this problem of calculating inequality,

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<v Speaker 1>and it goes further than that, by the way, because

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of the time we don't measure where individuals

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<v Speaker 1>go from those categories. We act as if these people

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<v Speaker 1>stay in these categories their whole lives, and they don't.

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<v Speaker 1>People move from one category to another. They go from

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<v Speaker 1>modern an income to high income over the course of

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<v Speaker 1>their lives, and these measurements of equality or of income

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<v Speaker 1>inequality fail to account for that, and so it acts

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<v Speaker 1>as though these are permanent things. When they're not, people

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<v Speaker 1>move from one category to another, and that's how it

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<v Speaker 1>should be. Freedom is going to end up in unequal results.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what freedom does. But if you prioritize freedom, then

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<v Speaker 1>that is not as much a concern, Whereas if you

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<v Speaker 1>prioritize equality, you're going to sacrifice freedom and in the

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<v Speaker 1>end not really get equality because people just aren't fundamentally

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<v Speaker 1>equal in ever respect. So you're gonna have to go

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<v Speaker 1>back and redistribute and redistribute and redistribute. For example, imagine

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<v Speaker 1>that you have a marathon and everybody starts out at

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<v Speaker 1>exactly the same spot. They're not going to end up

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<v Speaker 1>at the same spot. Some people are gonna come in

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<v Speaker 1>for a second, third and so forth. Okay, so now

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<v Speaker 1>you have to shift the ratios in order to equalize them. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>Make some people start way in the in the back,

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<v Speaker 1>and some people wear leg weights and so forth, and

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<v Speaker 1>then you run your next race once again they come

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<v Speaker 1>out unequal. So now you have to go and shift

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<v Speaker 1>them again. And that's why redistribution never ends. It's just

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<v Speaker 1>he has to keep owing and going and going and

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<v Speaker 1>going in order to try and equalize things that are

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<v Speaker 1>inherently unequal, and each step of that redistribution is a

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<v Speaker 1>step of coercion and inherently a step of violence, and

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<v Speaker 1>a commitment of a committing of an injustice against people

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<v Speaker 1>who have not done any unjust thing. Taking away my

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<v Speaker 1>earnings and giving them to some other person because he's poor,

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<v Speaker 1>when I'm not at fault for his being poor, means

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<v Speaker 1>violating my rights, committing an injustice against me. Well, we

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<v Speaker 1>won't even get to white privilege, which is a whole

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<v Speaker 1>different conversation, because you'd make that argument that, of course

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<v Speaker 1>you are. Now Here's another thing is that inequalities will

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<v Speaker 1>increase as wealth increases. So let's say that I have

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<v Speaker 1>one dollar and you have fifty cents. The inequality is

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<v Speaker 1>fifty cents. Right now, let's double both of our incomes.

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<v Speaker 1>Now I have two dollars and you have one dollar. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>the inequality has doubled also, right because now the inequality

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<v Speaker 1>is a whole dollar instead of fifty cents. And yet

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<v Speaker 1>you are twice as as well off now as you

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<v Speaker 1>were before. Both of us are vastly wealthier than we

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<v Speaker 1>were to begin with. Now, where what does a humane

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<v Speaker 1>person worry about? A humane person worries about the absolute wealth,

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<v Speaker 1>worries about lifting poor people from the bottom by by

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<v Speaker 1>ensuring that they have more wealth. It's the inhumane person

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<v Speaker 1>who says, oh, no, we can't have that because the

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<v Speaker 1>inequality has doubled. We don't like that inequality, so we've

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<v Speaker 1>got to make sure to prevent the inequality. No, your

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<v Speaker 1>focus is on the wrong thing. You should be on

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<v Speaker 1>the You should be focusing on increasing the wealth, not

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<v Speaker 1>on making sure everybody is equal. And as Margaret Thatcher

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<v Speaker 1>famously said, socialists would prefer that people have less in

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<v Speaker 1>order to ensure that they are more equal, Whereas what

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<v Speaker 1>what I'm saying is, yeah, they're gonna have inequalities, but

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<v Speaker 1>when people are wealthier, they are better off, even if

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<v Speaker 1>they aren't as wealthy as Bill Gates or something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>So many avidues we could discuss on that topic, and

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<v Speaker 1>I would like to, but we're run a little short

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<v Speaker 1>of time. And I did promise to change people's lives,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a hell of a thing to promise on

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<v Speaker 1>a radio show. So one of my favorite aspects of

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<v Speaker 1>talking to you through the years, Tim is that the

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<v Speaker 1>scales have flown from my eyes. On a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>topics to quote the Good Book Um for instance, the

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<v Speaker 1>idea that a government permit. Why is the government even

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<v Speaker 1>being asked to permit me to do something? I'm just

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<v Speaker 1>going to do it unless I'm hurting someone else. So

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of our ideas of liberty or upside down

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<v Speaker 1>right now, What broad principle of liberty do you think

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<v Speaker 1>has gotten turned on its head in modern America that

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<v Speaker 1>people ought to be reminded of. Oh boy, that's a no,

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<v Speaker 1>you've said, a very good one, which is this idea

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<v Speaker 1>that whether you're presumptively free unless there's some good reason

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<v Speaker 1>to prevent you from being free, versus the idea that

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<v Speaker 1>you are not free unless the government says you are.

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<v Speaker 1>And what what we have done is we're increasingly transformed

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<v Speaker 1>into what I call a permission society, where you are

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<v Speaker 1>not presumptively free unless you first get permission to do

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<v Speaker 1>the thing that you want to do. And there are

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<v Speaker 1>all sorts of problems with that. One is that we

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<v Speaker 1>can't really imagine the benefits of any new innovation before

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<v Speaker 1>somebody introduces and tries that experiment. And the idea of

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<v Speaker 1>of having to get a government permit assumes that government

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<v Speaker 1>bureaucracy somehow knows the right answer to something. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I've done lawsuits where I did a case in Kentucky

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<v Speaker 1>a few years ago where the question was that there's

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<v Speaker 1>a law that says you're not allowed to run a

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<v Speaker 1>moving company until you first get permit from the government,

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<v Speaker 1>and in order to get to permit, you have to

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<v Speaker 1>prove that there needs to be a new moving company

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<v Speaker 1>in the state. Well, how do you prove that there

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<v Speaker 1>needs to be a movement? You can't prove that there's

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<v Speaker 1>no and and the idea that the government knows how

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<v Speaker 1>many moving companies there ought to be in the state

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<v Speaker 1>of Kentucky. Of course they don't know the answer to

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<v Speaker 1>that question, and they can't possibly. So it's very dangerous

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<v Speaker 1>that we've shifted our society from one where you are

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<v Speaker 1>presumed to be free unless there's some good reason to

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<v Speaker 1>to limit what you do into a society where increasingly

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<v Speaker 1>you are not free unless you get some form of

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<v Speaker 1>government permission. And think of all the different things you

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<v Speaker 1>have to get permission for, everything from building a house

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<v Speaker 1>to owning a gun, to owning to possessing medicine. That's

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<v Speaker 1>what a prescription is is for. Is a government permission

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<v Speaker 1>slip for you to have a medicine. So I think

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<v Speaker 1>that is that overall is is a very good example

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<v Speaker 1>of how we had a really important principle and and

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<v Speaker 1>I think most Americans still hold it. But gradually we're

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<v Speaker 1>sliding into a society where you are not free unless

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<v Speaker 1>some bureaucrat approves of what you're doing well. And the

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<v Speaker 1>other aspect of our conversations through the years that have

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<v Speaker 1>really crystallized in my head that I wish I could

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<v Speaker 1>convey to other people is this idea that that the

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<v Speaker 1>government is in general wise and benevolent, and the more

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<v Speaker 1>government the better um as opposed to the concept of

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<v Speaker 1>rent seeking, for instance, that the more powerful and rich

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<v Speaker 1>a government gets, the more awful behavior you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>get because it becomes it becomes economically valuable for me

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<v Speaker 1>to get the government to do my bidding. So I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to invest my time and money to get the

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<v Speaker 1>government to do that do what I want them too.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's why you have these repeat players of powerful

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<v Speaker 1>private interests that use the government to profit themselves, whereas

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<v Speaker 1>newcomers who don't have that kind of political influence, they

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<v Speaker 1>can't obtain that, And so everybody talks about what government

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<v Speaker 1>wealth redistribution as if it's going to cure problems, when

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<v Speaker 1>all that does is it that power is going to

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<v Speaker 1>fall into the hands of the politically effective, the politically powerful,

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<v Speaker 1>and and it's not going to be exercised to benefit

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<v Speaker 1>those who are most needy or most deserving. And this

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<v Speaker 1>presumption that government is made up of angels, it's just amazing.

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<v Speaker 1>There's this a new story I was reading this this

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<v Speaker 1>morning about this guy named Ibram Kendy who published a

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<v Speaker 1>book called How to Be An Anti Racist. All the

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<v Speaker 1>talk about this this is a big deal and one

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<v Speaker 1>of the most dangerous things that's happened in decades. And

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<v Speaker 1>his big proposally is we have a government bureaucracy that

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<v Speaker 1>he in his words, literally governs absolutely everything to ensure

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<v Speaker 1>that it's anti racist, whatever that means, wellist or anti racist.

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<v Speaker 1>There's no such thing as I'm not a racist, and

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<v Speaker 1>the government bureaucracy is going to ensure that everything is

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<v Speaker 1>anti racist. Now, leaven aside from the vagueness of the

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<v Speaker 1>definitions and all those sorts of problems, he just seems

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<v Speaker 1>to assume that government is going to act in an

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<v Speaker 1>anti racist fashion as if government is staffed by angels, which,

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<v Speaker 1>if anything is there has there ever been an example

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<v Speaker 1>of it doing that? I mean, if anything, it's been

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<v Speaker 1>exactly the reverse throughout all of recorded history. And yet

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<v Speaker 1>we assume that. And Jefferson in his first inagur Justice

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<v Speaker 1>has this great line where he says, sometimes we are

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<v Speaker 1>told that government that people cannot be trusted to govern

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<v Speaker 1>their own lives. Have we found angels in the forms

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<v Speaker 1>of kings to govern us? Of course we haven't. So

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<v Speaker 1>if you're if we haven't found angels in the forms

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<v Speaker 1>of kings to govern us, then why would we trust

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<v Speaker 1>the government with more power. If people can't be trusted

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<v Speaker 1>to run their own lives and make their own decisions,

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<v Speaker 1>then they certainly can't be given power to govern other

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<v Speaker 1>people and run their lives and make decisions for them.

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<v Speaker 1>If I'm not we're if I'm not smart enough or

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<v Speaker 1>or moral enough to run my own life, then why

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<v Speaker 1>in the world should I have power to run your life?

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<v Speaker 1>It should be just the opposite. And yet this, this presumption,

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<v Speaker 1>the leftist presumption typically, although you also find it among

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<v Speaker 1>conservatives quite a lot, This presumption that people cannot be

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<v Speaker 1>left to run their own lives is then wedded to

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<v Speaker 1>this sort of mystical notion that somehow government bureaucracy is

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<v Speaker 1>going to be staffed by perfect people, who aren't biased,

0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.440
<v Speaker 1>who aren't looking out for their own private interests, and

0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.400
<v Speaker 1>who aren't going to do the bidding of their cronies

0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.720
<v Speaker 1>and their friends and other than all of human history.

0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:09.880
<v Speaker 1>They have an argument. I mean, the most racist societies

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<v Speaker 1>in the world, the most polluted societies in the world,

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<v Speaker 1>the poorest societies in the world, the most oppressive societies

0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.439
<v Speaker 1>in the world, the most discriminatory these are all collectivist societies.

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<v Speaker 1>Environmentalists think that government is going to act in some

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<v Speaker 1>in some fashion to protect the earth against evil, greedy capitalism.

0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.679
<v Speaker 1>Well that's true. Why are the dirtiest places on the

0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.480
<v Speaker 1>planet the places with the weakest property rights and the

0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:32.319
<v Speaker 1>biggest government the Soviet the former Soviet Union is a

0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.800
<v Speaker 1>toxic waste land. China is a toxic waste land, and

0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:37.880
<v Speaker 1>the government is in charge of everything there. So, if

0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.400
<v Speaker 1>government is going to to protect the earth against the

0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.200
<v Speaker 1>evils of the profit motive, it hasn't worked there. Why

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<v Speaker 1>would we assume that it would work here? When in fact,

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<v Speaker 1>even in the United States, the government was responsible for

0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:51.160
<v Speaker 1>everything from the extinction of the buffalo to the extinction

0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.800
<v Speaker 1>of the oh bird of Hawaii. These are things were

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<v Speaker 1>all done by government authorities who had didn't have to

0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.679
<v Speaker 1>answer for profit motives, didn't have to answer for the

0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.959
<v Speaker 1>safety of private property. As Aristotle said two thousand years ago,

0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:07.200
<v Speaker 1>that which is owned by nobody has the least amount

0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.280
<v Speaker 1>of carabis ode upon it. Well, said Tim sand for

0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.480
<v Speaker 1>Vice president of Litigation for the Goldwater Institute. You will

0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:14.840
<v Speaker 1>have a link to all of his books and that

0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:16.000
<v Speaker 1>sort of thing if you want to rate them, and

0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:18.079
<v Speaker 1>you probably should. Tim, It's always a pleasure. Thanks. Go

0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:19.800
<v Speaker 1>to Tim the Lawyer dot com for more. Tim the

0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:21.840
<v Speaker 1>Lawyer dot com. You're headed over to Berkeley to lecture

0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.800
<v Speaker 1>those people speaking at u C Berkeley in a few hours. God,

0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.000
<v Speaker 1>I hope you don't get pelted with rocks and garbage.

0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:28.880
<v Speaker 1>I might stop at the cathedral on the way and say,

0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:35.560
<v Speaker 1>if you couldn't hurt right, what's the downside? When the

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<v Speaker 1>with all the jingle bells and whistles you need to

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<v Speaker 1>go dashing through the snow together to winter. Visit amazon

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<v Speaker 1>dot com slash hunting, or scan the QR code on

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<v Speaker 1>Called five six two three one four four six zero

0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:04.480
<v Speaker 1>three for complete details