WEBVTT - Peter Beard and Richard Ruggiero 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.240 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:07.960 Africa can cast a spell on people. Today. Both of 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.559 my guests, Peter Beard and Richard Ruggero, have attempted to 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.080 tackle the issues Africa struggles with in very different ways, 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:19.200 one with art and one with government policy. When you 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:23.520 see the skies of Africa, they are so huge and 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:25.560 you almost look into the eye of God. I can't 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.880 explain it. That's something that enters your soul. That's Peter 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:32.240 Beard's wife, Najma, were at their house and mont talk 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:36.320 having a light lunch, anything like order. I know those 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.760 skies she's talking about. I've been to Africa. I went 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.239 to n and stayed in natal in South Africa. We 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:46.760 were there for two months, living in a house on 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.080 the edge of a game reserve. Just before we arrived, 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.519 there were two lethal attacks by wild animals in the area. 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:58.520 Signs were posted everywhere advising caution. It seemed everyone carried 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.760 a weapon. I remember in eighteen year old production assistant 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:03.840 on the film turned out to be packing a gun 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:08.920 underneath his shirt. Africa certainly did feel wild and here 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:12.880 I am interested in all of Peter Beard seventy four 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:15.560 was born in New York City. I don't get tired ever. 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.360 Went to the same schools as his father, Buckley pomfret Yale. 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.560 His great grandfather was a railroad tycoon. His grandfather was 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.480 heir to the lower Lard tobacco fortune. We go to 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.640 the tuxedo clubs. My grandfather there pure lar Lard. But 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.160 it's a great portrait. Peter Beard first felt the pull 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.000 of Africa at age seven when he stepped into the 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.760 African Hall of the American Museum of Natural History. Ten 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.319 years later, at seventeen, he reached the continent with a 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:48.080 camera in hand. I always take him pictures. Since you 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.040 were a child before you were born, since you were 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.000 a child, who encouraged you to do that? Why did that? 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:58.040 Photography wasn't a mainstream hobby back then. I did have 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:02.200 a very advanced grandmother, my mother's mother, who wanted to 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:05.240 buy me a camera. My parents wouldn't let her. Eventually 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.840 she won and I got a camera in about a 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.119 void lander. Hey, now, don't you gonna sit here and 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.400 criticize me? After Najma, Peter's wife sits about twenty ft 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.040 from us, That is, when she's not pacing the grounds 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.400 or lighting a cigarette, or checking on the food being served. 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:27.080 So what was photography then to you? Meaning when you started, 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:31.560 you know, it was very juvenile and like sentimental. I 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.440 just liked number one, how easy it was. Number two. 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.160 I was going to school, and you graduate and get 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.240 out and get pictures of the guys in your class. 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:45.639 I got all my group. If you ever interested, I've 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.639 got all my albums in New York. Clearly you're someone 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.440 who there's a lot of things you could have done right. 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:57.160 You grew up in a very very comfortable family. You 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.160 look like a movie star. When did things with you 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:04.960 with photography? Really? When did it take hold of you? 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.239 I never did. I'm just into subjects and things that 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.760 are interesting. You can see that in the pictures, are right, 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:15.480 don't You don't consider yourself a photographer? No, I'm not. 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.160 If I can avoid it, you can see yourself a 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:23.240 writer who takes pictures. I would say an escapist, right, Why? 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.560 Because I went to art school. But I don't like 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.240 the word art and I don't like the words. I 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:30.880 don't like what's happening in the art world at Chelsea 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:36.720 Million Studios there. I like things that are exciting or 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:41.440 make you laugh, or something like that. Was your father artistic? No? No, 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:46.360 did he collect art? Was Anson weird? Artistic? Peter turned 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:49.760 to his brother, also named Anson, who was visiting that 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.800 day and sitting on a bench behind us. Eventually Anson 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.400 would join in the conversation, what did you study at 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.920 Yale when you went to Yale? Well? When did you 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.920 go to Yale? Because you because you sound so I 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:07.840 don't know what the word is. Um, what did you say? 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:11.880 The word of us crazy? That's his wife says, volunteered 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.920 the word crazy. You sound so unorthodox. So I'm assuming 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:17.960 did you go to Yale out of obligation? Was that 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.320 like a family thing? Well? I was you want to 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:22.200 go to you? I was going as a pre med 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:28.600 and I suddenly realized going into pre med. And I'd 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:32.880 also been to Africa one to two visits. Humans are 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.000 the problem, so imagine being in the business of saving 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.920 fucking humans. You went to Yale for what? What'd you started? Art? 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.479 Did you finish? Oh? Yeah, you graduated. I did history 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.000 of art, you know, all those things, American studies, and 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:48.200 then I went to art school and I did Joseph 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:50.880 Albert's in the art school. And when you left Yale, 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:55.400 where'd you go Africa? So so you knew you've been 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:59.920 to Africa before before you finished with Charles Darwin's grandson, 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.960 by the way, And what was the genesis of that? 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.280 Was your father an adventure people in your family adventurers 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.719 like fa the Room with Woolworth Donahue and who did 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.680 the greatest Safari's all with a hunter I've used never 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:17.320 went never bird into bird shooting and stuff like that. 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.960 It was not an Africa file. No, he had had 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:23.320 a salmon river. He's salmon fishing and deer hunting and 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.360 he was a great guy, but he was not really adventurous. 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:28.320 I mean, I hate to use this phrase, but who 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:33.160 turned you onto Africa? Well, I guess it was with 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:40.279 this Quentin Ken's Darwin's grandson. We went South Africa, Madagascar, Kenya. 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:42.200 So it was a damn good time and what happened 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.719 to when you were there became an important part of 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:47.719 your life. Well, I've got a lot of important not 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.040 important pictures. No, I got a lot of lousy pictures, 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:52.560 but subject matter, you know, Ryan knows things like that. 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:57.600 But it was my interviews introduction to Charles Darwin. And 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:02.000 I think the elimination of Darwin from our school studies, 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.760 and the way he's been swept under the rug is 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.560 at the root of almost all of our problems. Why 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:13.640 we don't know anything about biology, zoology, ecology or nature. 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:18.200 We are enemies of nature. Don't ever forget it. Peter 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.440 Beard continued to go back to Africa. He made his 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:23.880 reputation with a book called The End of the Game, 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.840 published in nineteen sixty five, which chronicles the starvation of 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:31.400 tens of thousands of elephants and other animals in Kenya's 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:35.200 Tsavo National Park. He had purchased forty five acres in 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:39.119 Kenya outside Nairobi and set up what he called Hog Ranch, 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.600 named for the resident ward hogs in the area. I've 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.560 still got a great place. Peter's photographs in the End 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.119 of the Game stay with you. They are stark. Peter 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.440 described the African Hall at the Museum all those years 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.640 ago as possessing quote a darkness you could feel unquote. 0:06:57.080 --> 0:06:59.680 The same phrase comes to mind when looking at the 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.400 image is in his book. It was overwhelmingly obvious that 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:08.000 this enormous park was being eaten alive by an overpopulation 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:14.000 of elephants. Because they'd had a nine year anti poaching campaign. 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.080 They arrested all the traditional hunters. They were locked up. 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:23.720 The population soared ate the trees and poaching was used 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.120 as an excuse to continue raising money. What's the status 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.520 of Tsavo now? What are the issues there now? Well, 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.320 the bush is slowly growing back, but the cargated iron 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:38.080 huts have expanded from villages into little cities. The human 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.640 touches is like a disease. I mean, nothing they can 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:45.920 do about Africans in Africa. Who's going to do anything? 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:49.280 The national parks were pretty much held aside for for 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:56.600 for accommodation housing, uh, you know, ship houses. And what's 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:01.800 the status there now? A population? It was around five 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:05.520 and a half million when I arrived to over forty 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:10.440 million starvation and begging and going around the world looking 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:15.640 for freebees. Yeah. At this point, Peter's brother, now with 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:20.120 cigar in hand, raises his hand. What does Peter think 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.480 about the fact that Bill Gates has put so much 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.880 money into AIDS in South Africa while President u Becky 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:32.320 pays no attention aids. There is really a density dependent phenomenon. 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.760 The more of it the better. Frankly, Kenya is now 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.720 way over forty million from five and a half. Just 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:44.240 think about that. That means nobody lives happily. Everybody's a crook, 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:48.319 everybody is on the make, everybody's sitting begging outside the 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:52.680 American embassy. It's it's just cuts the country right off. 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.480 You can't you can't survive population pollution on this level. Now, 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:01.480 when you said that AIDS was a density dependent Yeah, 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:03.080 and the more of it the better. Your wife was 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.800 on her feet right away. Well, that's because everybody's very, 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:09.520 very sentimental and they think forty million Africans is going 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.640 to do a country good. No, it's not. Peter and 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.240 Najma met in ninety five. Do you want to know? 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:21.000 Nahma is Peter's third wife, after Sherrod Tigues and socialite 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:25.199 Mini Cushing. Peter met Najma in Kenya, where she was born. 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:27.600 I'd grown up there when I was educated in Europe. 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.679 So when I came back, and how how much time 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.240 have you spent back in Africa for the last you met? 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.040 Eight five, So that's over twenty years ago. Well we 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:38.880 used to live there a year at the time, a 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:46.400 year there, years years ago. Well, god, yes, over twenty 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.840 five years. So in the past, over how much time 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.280 have you spent in Africa during that? Not enough? All? 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.520 Not much? But is it? Is it safe to say 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:59.120 though that Africa cast this tremendous shadow over both of you. 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:02.800 You're both fairly my soul. It's the best place to be, 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:08.959 but it's also increasingly diminished. How has he changed in 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:13.520 the time you've known him? What was he like when 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:22.840 you met him? Uh? He was socially incredibly out there, 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.280 but I thought of it as totally normal. I thought 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:29.240 this was an incredible human being who done incredible things. 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.560 But I do remember this really funny moment. We'd gone 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.160 to some shrink for some weird reason. I can't remember 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.760 what it was, but and Peter left the room to 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:39.720 go to the loop, and the chap just looked at 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.120 me said, if I were you, young lady, I'd make 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:49.680 a run for it, but you didn't. Why. I'm a 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:55.480 really stubborn wench. That's really all. I'm woln or right 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.840 all up, basically. But he's a very colorful character. He's 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:03.520 a colorful, exhausting character. Yes, that's true. You're married now 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:06.880 and how many five years of how many children do 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.280 you have one? Just one? You had no children prior. 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.240 I'm not I'm not really a reproducer, You're not. We 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.800 just have the divine zar. I have said that Zara 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.079 was an accident. I love accidents and everything I do, 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.440 I love accidents, and people criticize me that I told 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.440 him before this interview. If he ever said I would 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.760 literally attack him. What's the matter with an accident? I 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:38.880 think of Francis Bacon visual word looking for accidents. But 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.000 you were a famous Uh what's the word? What should 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:43.720 I say? What should I call? He was a famous? 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:50.719 Thank you? You're a famous libertine? People say, and you 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.000 you number three last years? How did that happen? What's 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.680 the difference? Well, you learn, you get better picking something, 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:02.720 you're better picking, you get a better pick better and 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:04.680 h then you just get in a sort of prayer 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:10.439 position and go forward. So in an age where people 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.640 in the modern world, I mean the world is divided 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:16.719 between people who don't know you at all, people who 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.400 know you as a photographer and the writer of these 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:21.600 books and this adventurer and so forth. They know you 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:25.080 as a famous socialite, if you will, they know you 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:27.520 as all these things. And then there's young kids who 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.280 served the internet who know you that you're the guy 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:33.520 that got crushed by the elephant on YouTube. Yeah, what 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.520 was different that day from any every other day? That 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:39.760 day we were out there, We had no security, no gun. 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.360 It was Peter was helping a friend who was opening 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.440 up a safari camp. We're basically on a picnic. We've 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:54.000 done the a promotional shooting. Suddenly like fifteen elephants came 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.760 over the hill a cowherd, you know, like they are. 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:03.240 You don't get bulls that at that age. And it 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.240 was on the very It's just it's another population story. 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:10.079 It was on the edge of Tanzania Kuca Mountain and 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.199 elephants come in and grab a cabbage at night and 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.720 they get shot. So I'm sure this is a herd 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.559 that had been shot up, but they were very skittish, 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:23.400 so they take the bullet and keep moving. They don't 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.439 go down, They just shoot him to scare him. Now 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:27.320 they take the bullet and move. You know, that doesn't 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:30.880 do any harm than her Well through they shooting at night, 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.600 you know, a big black thing air bam, and you 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:39.000 just have a lot of wounding. Um And this female 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.960 gave us a demo, which is totally normal. We ran back. 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:48.720 I was in long pants early morning wet grass. The 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:51.520 elephants went back up the hill, so to speak, and 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:56.720 we just stood there. The son's a bitch. This matriarch 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.760 came again, so then she starts coming. We start running 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.880 again and make it feel happy. But it wasn't stopping. 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:11.839 And I looked into the elephant on an ant hill 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.600 and think his head butted here. Well, no, no, no, 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:17.680 it's many things. I was up in the air and 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:24.240 down and the camera took off. I think we'd run 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:27.840 far enough so that it knew we weren't dangerous. The 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:33.800 herd came around. The herd was it was actually almost 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.160 worth it. Uh, that should have been the title of 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:40.680 the boy Almost worth it. I was completely blind by 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:44.000 the way my optic nerve had been bounced off. I 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.520 couldn't see a goddamn thing. I had a huge hole 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.480 in my leg went right through here, and my hip 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:51.800 was broken in seven or eight places at this point. 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:53.320 By the way in the interview, I want to mention, 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:58.640 Beard is hiking up his shorts and showing in the 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.920 innermost portion of his thigh. The closest area to his 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:07.120 actual personality itself is this hideous gash a hole in 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.920 his leg. So anyway, there was an amazing gaping hole 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:13.360 and there was no blood coming up, by the way, 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:17.480 but I couldn't see it. I got splintered hips. I 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.560 don't I didn't get speared because I couldn't see the thing. 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.200 And um, but did you think when that happened, did 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.320 you think that was it? Did you thought you thought? 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:28.680 You thought that was it? Well, you can't escape an elephant. 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:32.480 You thought that was the end? Do you think how romantic? No? 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.720 I thought the parts are I just finished her book. 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.560 Um no, I was just felt like an idiot. So 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.440 then how long did it take you to recover? You were? 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:46.480 You were? You were flat on your back for months? Correct? 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:49.400 I bled out going into the hospital. It was about 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.400 four hours to get to the hospital. I eventually had 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:54.560 to be flown too. I see, they think that's what 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:58.080 did you just say? No no roads? So the man 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:01.560 who complained that roads have ruined Africa is the man 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.200 is saying going to no fucking roads here. It was 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:08.120 a very bumpy little ride. But even in your in 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.960 your way and yeah, I mean, you don't seem like 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:12.960 somebody who's eager to take a bow for this or 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:17.720 anything else. But in your way through your work through art, 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.320 through photography. Do you think that you've been responsible for 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.560 some of the uh, the good that's come there in 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.240 terms of casting a light on that at all? Truthfully, 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:32.000 I know nothing at all, no positive result. I know 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:33.680 lots of people look at these pops. They don't even 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:40.040 see that there's a starvation scene. They see ivory, They think, ohvations. 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.960 Peter's brother Anson speaks up again, saying he's heard him 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.880 described as a conservationist. I'm for a conservation, but it's 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:53.600 mostly a con that's the trouble. It's sentimental. Buy an 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:56.600 elephant or drink a lion and acre so some of 0:16:56.640 --> 0:17:01.240 them have to die. Well, the way human spreading. The 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.560 whole lot of the answer is limiting human development. You've 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:09.600 got population pollution is the key, and that that's the thing. 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.440 But I'm afraid it's partly due to Hitler. You can't 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:17.400 talk about population dynamics. You never hear the word, do you. 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.159 You never hear pecking order, You never hear any of 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.240 the words that relate to all the struggles that are 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.800 going on there because we have decided not to talk 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:32.840 about any of the realities. But it's do gooder conservation. 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:38.720 It's sentimental or shit. What we're talking about in essences 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:43.399 is changing human behavior. Richard Ruggero is Chief of the 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.600 Near East, South, Asia and Africa at the Division of 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:51.760 International Conservation at the US Fish and Wildlife Service. Africa 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.760 called out to him too. He joined the Peace Corps. 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:59.720 He was placed in the Northern Central African Republic. Richard 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.440 spent most of the nineteen eighties and nineties living in Africa, 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:07.320 and he doesn't see things that differently from photographer Peter Beard. 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.919 Richard Rogero has spent over thirty years in conservation. His 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:16.120 dissertation from nine was on the plight of the African elephant, 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.199 a problem he's still trying to tackle. You know, I 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:23.560 could describe it that if God forbid, what was happening 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.040 to elephants were happening to people, we would call it 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:32.600 a massive genocide. They're being exterminated for ivory on a 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:37.840 mass level, correct using the latest technology nets, weapons, cell phones, 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:43.359 sat phones, vehicles, aircraft, helicopters, and the ease by which 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:47.440 massive amounts of ivory can be illegally shipped to markets 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.840 has never been greater, and it is primarily for ivory. 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.040 Is an ivory driven market. Primarily, you know, certainly there 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.399 are some of the other uses as well. While bush 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.760 meat people eat elephants in what regions of Africa? Do 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.920 they They don't export that meat, do They're not really. 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:07.359 Most of it is consumed either in rural villages, but 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:13.560 increasingly and more disturbingly, it's exported to cities within Africa. 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.480 The problem there is that it produces a market that's very, 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:20.040 very difficult to satiate. Is it labeled as elephant meat 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.760 when it's sold in more it's not labeled so much 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.000 as you go to a market stall and the meats 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:28.560 there and the person selling it will tell you what 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:30.639 it is. It's fairly obvious to look at it. So 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:35.480 people in African society, not just impoverished people, they eat 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.040 elephant meat and that's a food staple to them. Yeah, 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:45.280 I mean the impoverished people who eat elephant meat opportunistically sporadically. 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:48.840 Is nothing new about that, and a lot of people 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:53.199 would say there's nothing wrong about that given a sustainable 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.560 level of off take. The problem here is that in 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:00.480 some cases there's an additional inducement to eat often meet 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.520 number one, it's a bush meet in many places. I'm 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.840 speaking primarily of central Africa where you ask the question 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.920 where does this happen most? It happens all over Africa, 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.080 but mostly in Central Africa. At this point you say 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:17.360 Central Africa, are there governments there that condone this more 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:21.680 and encourage this more than others? No, the culprit I 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:25.520 wouldn't say that they openly condone it. It's just by 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.480 negligence or in action it effectively causes the problem to 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:33.520 be worse. There are some countries that are very very 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.200 good at it and make really good earnest efforts, such 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.960 as in Central Africa. Gabon is clearly a leader, very 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.359 progressive president who might be the greenest president on Earth. 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:49.320 Ali Bungo is his name, and um the system, the ethos, 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:53.160 the government and many people and even down to villages 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.440 are very supportive of the concept of sustainable off take 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:02.040 or respecting laws. It's not a perfect place. The problem 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:06.000 there is poachers are coming in very well armed from 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:09.920 across borders and they're killing elephants at an incredible rate. 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.040 So Gabon is working very hard on that, and that 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:17.359 does contrast with some countries who either lack the political 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:21.000 will or maybe this is more important, lack the capacity 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.679 to do anything about it now um, the idea that 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.840 Kenya and areas like that, which are probably the most 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:31.040 well known, I would imagine. I think that the people 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:36.439 have who have that romanticized as Dennison, you know, Peter Beard, 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:39.800 Meryl Streep and Redford getting on a train together or 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:42.800 get on a biplane together. And that's not the highest 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:47.080 concentration of elephant. No. No. But when you describe the 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:52.520 percentage of the populations in Kenya now um receiving increased pressure, 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:58.800 that's a manifestation of the great symptom. The symptom is poaching, 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.600 the symptom is habit destruction. The disease is something else, 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:05.639 and I think that's what Peter Beard alludes to. What 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:09.880 do you think it is, Well, it's a human induced problem. 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:13.760 Nature has some problems that people are not responsible for. 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:19.120 I mean, you can talk about volcanoes, tsunamies. People aren't 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:23.040 responsible for that. But many of the problems that nature, 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:27.040 the wild wildlife experience are at the hands of man. 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:31.720 To coin a phrase, So the problem is basically people's 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:37.000 attitudes about wildlife in general, about elephants specifically. It's a 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:40.800 function of shortsightedness. It's a function of apathy. It's a 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.600 function of greed and it's a function of human numbers. 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:46.639 Is it fair to say? And I don't have a 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:51.800 sophisticated analogy here, but would you put poachers, even with 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:57.600 their high powered weaponry and satellite phones and and aviation 0:22:57.640 --> 0:22:59.800 equipment and so forth, would you put them in the 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:05.440 category more with like people who are making moonshine during 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:07.640 prohibition and it's more of a kind of a rag 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:10.639 tag bunch. It's not that sophisticated or they more the 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:14.040 equivalent of Mexican drug lords who are actually controlling the 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:18.400 regions politically and killing the political leadership that opposes them 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:22.920 and terrorizing. How sophisticated is poaching in Africa in terms 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:29.120 of its political power? Both exists the unsophisticated, the poacher 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:33.120 who maybe has a fabricated shotgun or uses snares or poison, 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:36.359 and that still exists. It's been the case for a 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:40.320 long time. It's the relative proportion of poachers. It's the 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:46.080 predominance now of these more sophisticated, more aggressive, frequently militarized 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:50.199 poachers that's happening, and that's what's causing this chronic problem 0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:53.560 that we've seen it. Ebbs and it flows, but it 0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:56.960 has gotten dramatically worse in recent years. It's a result of, 0:23:57.080 --> 0:23:59.760 as I say, the market for ivory and the ease 0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:03.560 by which it can be obtained in technology, guns, helicopters, 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:09.119 political background, indifference, those points come into play. Is it 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:12.600 fair to say that that in Gabon, where Ali Bongo 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:16.919 is having some degree of success, what's he doing and 0:24:17.200 --> 0:24:20.240 or not doing that's leading to that success that other 0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:23.520 places it's getting by them. First, the country or an 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:26.520 individual or an institution needs to be aware of the problem. 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:31.120 And I think you know, the problem is becoming very 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.560 conscious in the minds of the public. Certainly politicians um 0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:38.280 in Africa are aware of the problem. The next step 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:41.560 is the political will to do something about it, and 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:43.919 the third step is having the capacity to act on 0:24:43.960 --> 0:24:48.000 the political will. Well, Bungo has the political will and 0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:51.720 he is developing. And that's what my organization Fish and 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:54.919 Wildlife helps them with is to develop the capacity to 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:58.080 deal with the problem that the awareness is brought to 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:01.879 everybody's attention. So the answer to your question succinctly is 0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:05.480 he's aware of the problem, he's willing to do something 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:08.320 about it, and he's mustering the capacity and the wherewithal 0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:11.360 to actually do it. When was the first time you 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:15.720