1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Africa can cast a spell on people. Today. Both of 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: my guests, Peter Beard and Richard Ruggero, have attempted to 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: tackle the issues Africa struggles with in very different ways, 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: one with art and one with government policy. When you 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: see the skies of Africa, they are so huge and 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: you almost look into the eye of God. I can't 8 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: explain it. That's something that enters your soul. That's Peter 9 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: Beard's wife, Najma, were at their house and mont talk 10 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: having a light lunch, anything like order. I know those 11 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: skies she's talking about. I've been to Africa. I went 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: to n and stayed in natal in South Africa. We 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: were there for two months, living in a house on 14 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: the edge of a game reserve. Just before we arrived, 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: there were two lethal attacks by wild animals in the area. 16 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: Signs were posted everywhere advising caution. It seemed everyone carried 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: a weapon. I remember in eighteen year old production assistant 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: on the film turned out to be packing a gun 19 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: underneath his shirt. Africa certainly did feel wild and here 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: I am interested in all of Peter Beard seventy four 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: was born in New York City. I don't get tired ever. 22 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: Went to the same schools as his father, Buckley pomfret Yale. 23 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: His great grandfather was a railroad tycoon. His grandfather was 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: heir to the lower Lard tobacco fortune. We go to 25 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: the tuxedo clubs. My grandfather there pure lar Lard. But 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: it's a great portrait. Peter Beard first felt the pull 27 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: of Africa at age seven when he stepped into the 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: African Hall of the American Museum of Natural History. Ten 29 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: years later, at seventeen, he reached the continent with a 30 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: camera in hand. I always take him pictures. Since you 31 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: were a child before you were born, since you were 32 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: a child, who encouraged you to do that? Why did that? 33 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: Photography wasn't a mainstream hobby back then. I did have 34 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: a very advanced grandmother, my mother's mother, who wanted to 35 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: buy me a camera. My parents wouldn't let her. Eventually 36 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: she won and I got a camera in about a 37 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,119 Speaker 1: void lander. Hey, now, don't you gonna sit here and 38 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: criticize me? After Najma, Peter's wife sits about twenty ft 39 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: from us, That is, when she's not pacing the grounds 40 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: or lighting a cigarette, or checking on the food being served. 41 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: So what was photography then to you? Meaning when you started, 42 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, it was very juvenile and like sentimental. I 43 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: just liked number one, how easy it was. Number two. 44 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: I was going to school, and you graduate and get 45 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: out and get pictures of the guys in your class. 46 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: I got all my group. If you ever interested, I've 47 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: got all my albums in New York. Clearly you're someone 48 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: who there's a lot of things you could have done right. 49 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: You grew up in a very very comfortable family. You 50 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: look like a movie star. When did things with you 51 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: with photography? Really? When did it take hold of you? 52 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 1: I never did. I'm just into subjects and things that 53 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: are interesting. You can see that in the pictures, are right, 54 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: don't You don't consider yourself a photographer? No, I'm not. 55 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: If I can avoid it, you can see yourself a 56 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: writer who takes pictures. I would say an escapist, right, Why? 57 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: Because I went to art school. But I don't like 58 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: the word art and I don't like the words. I 59 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: don't like what's happening in the art world at Chelsea 60 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: Million Studios there. I like things that are exciting or 61 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: make you laugh, or something like that. Was your father artistic? No? No, 62 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: did he collect art? Was Anson weird? Artistic? Peter turned 63 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: to his brother, also named Anson, who was visiting that 64 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: day and sitting on a bench behind us. Eventually Anson 65 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: would join in the conversation, what did you study at 66 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: Yale when you went to Yale? Well? When did you 67 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: go to Yale? Because you because you sound so I 68 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: don't know what the word is. Um, what did you say? 69 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: The word of us crazy? That's his wife says, volunteered 70 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: the word crazy. You sound so unorthodox. So I'm assuming 71 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: did you go to Yale out of obligation? Was that 72 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: like a family thing? Well? I was you want to 73 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: go to you? I was going as a pre med 74 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: and I suddenly realized going into pre med. And I'd 75 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: also been to Africa one to two visits. Humans are 76 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: the problem, so imagine being in the business of saving 77 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: fucking humans. You went to Yale for what? What'd you started? Art? 78 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: Did you finish? Oh? Yeah, you graduated. I did history 79 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: of art, you know, all those things, American studies, and 80 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: then I went to art school and I did Joseph 81 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: Albert's in the art school. And when you left Yale, 82 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: where'd you go Africa? So so you knew you've been 83 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: to Africa before before you finished with Charles Darwin's grandson, 84 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: by the way, And what was the genesis of that? 85 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: Was your father an adventure people in your family adventurers 86 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: like fa the Room with Woolworth Donahue and who did 87 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: the greatest Safari's all with a hunter I've used never 88 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: went never bird into bird shooting and stuff like that. 89 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: It was not an Africa file. No, he had had 90 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: a salmon river. He's salmon fishing and deer hunting and 91 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: he was a great guy, but he was not really adventurous. 92 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I hate to use this phrase, but who 93 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: turned you onto Africa? Well, I guess it was with 94 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: this Quentin Ken's Darwin's grandson. We went South Africa, Madagascar, Kenya. 95 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: So it was a damn good time and what happened 96 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: to when you were there became an important part of 97 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: your life. Well, I've got a lot of important not 98 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: important pictures. No, I got a lot of lousy pictures, 99 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: but subject matter, you know, Ryan knows things like that. 100 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: But it was my interviews introduction to Charles Darwin. And 101 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: I think the elimination of Darwin from our school studies, 102 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: and the way he's been swept under the rug is 103 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: at the root of almost all of our problems. Why 104 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: we don't know anything about biology, zoology, ecology or nature. 105 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: We are enemies of nature. Don't ever forget it. Peter 106 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: Beard continued to go back to Africa. He made his 107 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: reputation with a book called The End of the Game, 108 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: published in nineteen sixty five, which chronicles the starvation of 109 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of elephants and other animals in Kenya's 110 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: Tsavo National Park. He had purchased forty five acres in 111 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,119 Speaker 1: Kenya outside Nairobi and set up what he called Hog Ranch, 112 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: named for the resident ward hogs in the area. I've 113 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: still got a great place. Peter's photographs in the End 114 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,119 Speaker 1: of the Game stay with you. They are stark. Peter 115 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: described the African Hall at the Museum all those years 116 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: ago as possessing quote a darkness you could feel unquote. 117 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: The same phrase comes to mind when looking at the 118 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: image is in his book. It was overwhelmingly obvious that 119 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: this enormous park was being eaten alive by an overpopulation 120 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: of elephants. Because they'd had a nine year anti poaching campaign. 121 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: They arrested all the traditional hunters. They were locked up. 122 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: The population soared ate the trees and poaching was used 123 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: as an excuse to continue raising money. What's the status 124 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: of Tsavo now? What are the issues there now? Well, 125 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: the bush is slowly growing back, but the cargated iron 126 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: huts have expanded from villages into little cities. The human 127 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: touches is like a disease. I mean, nothing they can 128 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: do about Africans in Africa. Who's going to do anything? 129 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: The national parks were pretty much held aside for for 130 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: for accommodation housing, uh, you know, ship houses. And what's 131 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: the status there now? A population? It was around five 132 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: and a half million when I arrived to over forty 133 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: million starvation and begging and going around the world looking 134 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: for freebees. Yeah. At this point, Peter's brother, now with 135 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: cigar in hand, raises his hand. What does Peter think 136 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: about the fact that Bill Gates has put so much 137 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: money into AIDS in South Africa while President u Becky 138 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: pays no attention aids. There is really a density dependent phenomenon. 139 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: The more of it the better. Frankly, Kenya is now 140 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: way over forty million from five and a half. Just 141 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: think about that. That means nobody lives happily. Everybody's a crook, 142 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: everybody is on the make, everybody's sitting begging outside the 143 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: American embassy. It's it's just cuts the country right off. 144 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: You can't you can't survive population pollution on this level. Now, 145 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: when you said that AIDS was a density dependent Yeah, 146 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: and the more of it the better. Your wife was 147 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: on her feet right away. Well, that's because everybody's very, 148 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: very sentimental and they think forty million Africans is going 149 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: to do a country good. No, it's not. Peter and 150 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: Najma met in ninety five. Do you want to know? 151 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: Nahma is Peter's third wife, after Sherrod Tigues and socialite 152 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: Mini Cushing. Peter met Najma in Kenya, where she was born. 153 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: I'd grown up there when I was educated in Europe. 154 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: So when I came back, and how how much time 155 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: have you spent back in Africa for the last you met? 156 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: Eight five, So that's over twenty years ago. Well we 157 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: used to live there a year at the time, a 158 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: year there, years years ago. Well, god, yes, over twenty 159 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: five years. So in the past, over how much time 160 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: have you spent in Africa during that? Not enough? All? 161 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: Not much? But is it? Is it safe to say 162 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: though that Africa cast this tremendous shadow over both of you. 163 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: You're both fairly my soul. It's the best place to be, 164 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: but it's also increasingly diminished. How has he changed in 165 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: the time you've known him? What was he like when 166 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: you met him? Uh? He was socially incredibly out there, 167 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: but I thought of it as totally normal. I thought 168 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: this was an incredible human being who done incredible things. 169 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: But I do remember this really funny moment. We'd gone 170 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: to some shrink for some weird reason. I can't remember 171 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: what it was, but and Peter left the room to 172 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: go to the loop, and the chap just looked at 173 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: me said, if I were you, young lady, I'd make 174 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: a run for it, but you didn't. Why. I'm a 175 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: really stubborn wench. That's really all. I'm woln or right 176 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: all up, basically. But he's a very colorful character. He's 177 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: a colorful, exhausting character. Yes, that's true. You're married now 178 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: and how many five years of how many children do 179 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: you have one? Just one? You had no children prior. 180 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not really a reproducer, You're not. We 181 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: just have the divine zar. I have said that Zara 182 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: was an accident. I love accidents and everything I do, 183 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: I love accidents, and people criticize me that I told 184 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: him before this interview. If he ever said I would 185 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: literally attack him. What's the matter with an accident? I 186 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: think of Francis Bacon visual word looking for accidents. But 187 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: you were a famous Uh what's the word? What should 188 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: I say? What should I call? He was a famous? 189 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: Thank you? You're a famous libertine? People say, and you 190 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: you number three last years? How did that happen? What's 191 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: the difference? Well, you learn, you get better picking something, 192 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: you're better picking, you get a better pick better and 193 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: h then you just get in a sort of prayer 194 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: position and go forward. So in an age where people 195 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: in the modern world, I mean the world is divided 196 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 1: between people who don't know you at all, people who 197 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: know you as a photographer and the writer of these 198 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: books and this adventurer and so forth. They know you 199 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: as a famous socialite, if you will, they know you 200 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: as all these things. And then there's young kids who 201 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: served the internet who know you that you're the guy 202 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: that got crushed by the elephant on YouTube. Yeah, what 203 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: was different that day from any every other day? That 204 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: day we were out there, We had no security, no gun. 205 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: It was Peter was helping a friend who was opening 206 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: up a safari camp. We're basically on a picnic. We've 207 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: done the a promotional shooting. Suddenly like fifteen elephants came 208 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: over the hill a cowherd, you know, like they are. 209 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: You don't get bulls that at that age. And it 210 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: was on the very It's just it's another population story. 211 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 1: It was on the edge of Tanzania Kuca Mountain and 212 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: elephants come in and grab a cabbage at night and 213 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: they get shot. So I'm sure this is a herd 214 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 1: that had been shot up, but they were very skittish, 215 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: so they take the bullet and keep moving. They don't 216 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: go down, They just shoot him to scare him. Now 217 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: they take the bullet and move. You know, that doesn't 218 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: do any harm than her Well through they shooting at night, 219 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: you know, a big black thing air bam, and you 220 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: just have a lot of wounding. Um And this female 221 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: gave us a demo, which is totally normal. We ran back. 222 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: I was in long pants early morning wet grass. The 223 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: elephants went back up the hill, so to speak, and 224 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: we just stood there. The son's a bitch. This matriarch 225 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: came again, so then she starts coming. We start running 226 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: again and make it feel happy. But it wasn't stopping. 227 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 1: And I looked into the elephant on an ant hill 228 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: and think his head butted here. Well, no, no, no, 229 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: it's many things. I was up in the air and 230 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: down and the camera took off. I think we'd run 231 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: far enough so that it knew we weren't dangerous. The 232 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: herd came around. The herd was it was actually almost 233 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: worth it. Uh, that should have been the title of 234 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: the boy Almost worth it. I was completely blind by 235 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: the way my optic nerve had been bounced off. I 236 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: couldn't see a goddamn thing. I had a huge hole 237 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: in my leg went right through here, and my hip 238 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: was broken in seven or eight places at this point. 239 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: By the way in the interview, I want to mention, 240 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: Beard is hiking up his shorts and showing in the 241 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: innermost portion of his thigh. The closest area to his 242 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: actual personality itself is this hideous gash a hole in 243 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: his leg. So anyway, there was an amazing gaping hole 244 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: and there was no blood coming up, by the way, 245 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: but I couldn't see it. I got splintered hips. I 246 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: don't I didn't get speared because I couldn't see the thing. 247 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: And um, but did you think when that happened, did 248 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: you think that was it? Did you thought you thought? 249 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: You thought that was it? Well, you can't escape an elephant. 250 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: You thought that was the end? Do you think how romantic? No? 251 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: I thought the parts are I just finished her book. 252 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: Um no, I was just felt like an idiot. So 253 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: then how long did it take you to recover? You were? 254 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: You were? You were flat on your back for months? Correct? 255 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: I bled out going into the hospital. It was about 256 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: four hours to get to the hospital. I eventually had 257 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: to be flown too. I see, they think that's what 258 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: did you just say? No no roads? So the man 259 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: who complained that roads have ruined Africa is the man 260 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: is saying going to no fucking roads here. It was 261 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: a very bumpy little ride. But even in your in 262 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: your way and yeah, I mean, you don't seem like 263 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: somebody who's eager to take a bow for this or 264 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: anything else. But in your way through your work through art, 265 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: through photography. Do you think that you've been responsible for 266 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: some of the uh, the good that's come there in 267 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: terms of casting a light on that at all? Truthfully, 268 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: I know nothing at all, no positive result. I know 269 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: lots of people look at these pops. They don't even 270 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: see that there's a starvation scene. They see ivory, They think, ohvations. 271 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: Peter's brother Anson speaks up again, saying he's heard him 272 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: described as a conservationist. I'm for a conservation, but it's 273 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: mostly a con that's the trouble. It's sentimental. Buy an 274 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: elephant or drink a lion and acre so some of 275 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: them have to die. Well, the way human spreading. The 276 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: whole lot of the answer is limiting human development. You've 277 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: got population pollution is the key, and that that's the thing. 278 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: But I'm afraid it's partly due to Hitler. You can't 279 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: talk about population dynamics. You never hear the word, do you. 280 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: You never hear pecking order, You never hear any of 281 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: the words that relate to all the struggles that are 282 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: going on there because we have decided not to talk 283 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: about any of the realities. But it's do gooder conservation. 284 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: It's sentimental or shit. What we're talking about in essences 285 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: is changing human behavior. Richard Ruggero is Chief of the 286 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: Near East, South, Asia and Africa at the Division of 287 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: International Conservation at the US Fish and Wildlife Service. Africa 288 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: called out to him too. He joined the Peace Corps. 289 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: He was placed in the Northern Central African Republic. Richard 290 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: spent most of the nineteen eighties and nineties living in Africa, 291 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: and he doesn't see things that differently from photographer Peter Beard. 292 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: Richard Rogero has spent over thirty years in conservation. His 293 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: dissertation from nine was on the plight of the African elephant, 294 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 1: a problem he's still trying to tackle. You know, I 295 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: could describe it that if God forbid, what was happening 296 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: to elephants were happening to people, we would call it 297 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: a massive genocide. They're being exterminated for ivory on a 298 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: mass level, correct using the latest technology nets, weapons, cell phones, 299 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: sat phones, vehicles, aircraft, helicopters, and the ease by which 300 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: massive amounts of ivory can be illegally shipped to markets 301 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: has never been greater, and it is primarily for ivory. 302 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: Is an ivory driven market. Primarily, you know, certainly there 303 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: are some of the other uses as well. While bush 304 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: meat people eat elephants in what regions of Africa? Do 305 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: they They don't export that meat, do They're not really. 306 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: Most of it is consumed either in rural villages, but 307 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: increasingly and more disturbingly, it's exported to cities within Africa. 308 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: The problem there is that it produces a market that's very, 309 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: very difficult to satiate. Is it labeled as elephant meat 310 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: when it's sold in more it's not labeled so much 311 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: as you go to a market stall and the meats 312 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: there and the person selling it will tell you what 313 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: it is. It's fairly obvious to look at it. So 314 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: people in African society, not just impoverished people, they eat 315 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: elephant meat and that's a food staple to them. Yeah, 316 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: I mean the impoverished people who eat elephant meat opportunistically sporadically. 317 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: Is nothing new about that, and a lot of people 318 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 1: would say there's nothing wrong about that given a sustainable 319 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: level of off take. The problem here is that in 320 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: some cases there's an additional inducement to eat often meet 321 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: number one, it's a bush meet in many places. I'm 322 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: speaking primarily of central Africa where you ask the question 323 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: where does this happen most? It happens all over Africa, 324 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: but mostly in Central Africa. At this point you say 325 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 1: Central Africa, are there governments there that condone this more 326 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: and encourage this more than others? No, the culprit I 327 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: wouldn't say that they openly condone it. It's just by 328 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: negligence or in action it effectively causes the problem to 329 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: be worse. There are some countries that are very very 330 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: good at it and make really good earnest efforts, such 331 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: as in Central Africa. Gabon is clearly a leader, very 332 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: progressive president who might be the greenest president on Earth. 333 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: Ali Bungo is his name, and um the system, the ethos, 334 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: the government and many people and even down to villages 335 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: are very supportive of the concept of sustainable off take 336 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: or respecting laws. It's not a perfect place. The problem 337 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: there is poachers are coming in very well armed from 338 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: across borders and they're killing elephants at an incredible rate. 339 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: So Gabon is working very hard on that, and that 340 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: does contrast with some countries who either lack the political 341 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: will or maybe this is more important, lack the capacity 342 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: to do anything about it now um, the idea that 343 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: Kenya and areas like that, which are probably the most 344 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: well known, I would imagine. I think that the people 345 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: have who have that romanticized as Dennison, you know, Peter Beard, 346 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: Meryl Streep and Redford getting on a train together or 347 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: get on a biplane together. And that's not the highest 348 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: concentration of elephant. No. No. But when you describe the 349 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: percentage of the populations in Kenya now um receiving increased pressure, 350 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: that's a manifestation of the great symptom. The symptom is poaching, 351 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: the symptom is habit destruction. The disease is something else, 352 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: and I think that's what Peter Beard alludes to. What 353 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: do you think it is, Well, it's a human induced problem. 354 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: Nature has some problems that people are not responsible for. 355 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you can talk about volcanoes, tsunamies. People aren't 356 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: responsible for that. But many of the problems that nature, 357 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: the wild wildlife experience are at the hands of man. 358 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: To coin a phrase, So the problem is basically people's 359 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: attitudes about wildlife in general, about elephants specifically. It's a 360 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: function of shortsightedness. It's a function of apathy. It's a 361 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: function of greed and it's a function of human numbers. 362 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: Is it fair to say? And I don't have a 363 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: sophisticated analogy here, but would you put poachers, even with 364 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: their high powered weaponry and satellite phones and and aviation 365 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: equipment and so forth, would you put them in the 366 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: category more with like people who are making moonshine during 367 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: prohibition and it's more of a kind of a rag 368 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: tag bunch. It's not that sophisticated or they more the 369 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: equivalent of Mexican drug lords who are actually controlling the 370 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: regions politically and killing the political leadership that opposes them 371 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: and terrorizing. How sophisticated is poaching in Africa in terms 372 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: of its political power? Both exists the unsophisticated, the poacher 373 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: who maybe has a fabricated shotgun or uses snares or poison, 374 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: and that still exists. It's been the case for a 375 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: long time. It's the relative proportion of poachers. It's the 376 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: predominance now of these more sophisticated, more aggressive, frequently militarized 377 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: poachers that's happening, and that's what's causing this chronic problem 378 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: that we've seen it. Ebbs and it flows, but it 379 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: has gotten dramatically worse in recent years. It's a result of, 380 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: as I say, the market for ivory and the ease 381 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: by which it can be obtained in technology, guns, helicopters, 382 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 1: political background, indifference, those points come into play. Is it 383 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: fair to say that that in Gabon, where Ali Bongo 384 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: is having some degree of success, what's he doing and 385 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: or not doing that's leading to that success that other 386 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: places it's getting by them. First, the country or an 387 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: individual or an institution needs to be aware of the problem. 388 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: And I think you know, the problem is becoming very 389 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: conscious in the minds of the public. Certainly politicians um 390 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: in Africa are aware of the problem. The next step 391 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: is the political will to do something about it, and 392 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: the third step is having the capacity to act on 393 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: the political will. Well, Bungo has the political will and 394 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: he is developing. And that's what my organization Fish and 395 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 1: Wildlife helps them with is to develop the capacity to 396 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: deal with the problem that the awareness is brought to 397 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: everybody's attention. So the answer to your question succinctly is 398 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: he's aware of the problem, he's willing to do something 399 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: about it, and he's mustering the capacity and the wherewithal 400 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 1: to actually do it. When was the first time you 401 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: were aware of Peter Beard's photography and his work there 402 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: in Africa. What was your response to that when you 403 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: first saw that. I was first aware of it. I 404 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: think I lived in Kenya in the late eighties. We 405 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: knew that Peter was out in hog Ranch and um 406 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: occasionally you'd see him across a crowded room at a 407 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: at um some sort of function, But um, I never 408 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: had close contact with him at all. We just lived 409 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: in the same place, the same country. My reaction was 410 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,479 Speaker 1: that he is an artist and he is doing some 411 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: fantastic I was first just physically attracted to the beauty 412 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: of his photographs and how he put together his books. 413 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: But thinking about it farther down the road, I mean 414 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: I was struck by almost quaintness. Isn't the right word. 415 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: That it was a reflection of a of a time 416 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: that was fleeting. You alluded to Isaac Dennison and the 417 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: Hollywood images of what Kenya was like. Certainly Peter's work 418 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: had a great deal of that sort of nostalgic feel, 419 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: very very beautifully presented. But to me, there's a great 420 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: function in that and and the great function now decades 421 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: after he produced his main book or his his artistic displays, 422 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: the photography mainly is it shows what was it. Peter's 423 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: work is a it's a sitegeist. It's it's a representation 424 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: of what things were in the fifties and sixties in Kenya. 425 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: And by contrasting that, we can see how far things 426 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: have gone. And that enables us to predict the future 427 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: or to foresee it, or to anticipate it. And if 428 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: we can't do that, we can't deal with it. We 429 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: have to be proactive. That's the secret to conservation. You 430 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: have to anticipate the trend to be able to proactively 431 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: deal with it. In Peter's book really gives us that 432 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: that sort of nostalgic or that retrospective you that's very 433 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: helpful to us. When I look at his pictures, it's 434 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: almost like he's Frederick Remington's exactly. Yeah, that's that's my point. 435 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: You know, it's just from an artistic standpoint, it's fantastic stuff. 436 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: But as I say, as a historical perspective and a reminder, 437 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: it's it has a function as well as just an 438 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: aesthetic value. But for the sake of this program, if 439 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: you had to give it a word or a phrase, 440 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: how bad is it right now? Uh? My thirty two 441 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: years of experience of watching it very closely, this this 442 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: is a nightmare. It is unbelievably bad, and we've been 443 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: seeing it accelerating in that negative trend. So once again 444 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: it's it's the rate of change. What's the hotspot? Where 445 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: is it really like out of control Central Africa? What 446 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 1: country the Western Congo basin where there's still a lot 447 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: of elephants really getting hammered d r C. The demock 448 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 1: at a Republic of Congo is so degraded already. For example, 449 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: Ian Douglas Hamilton's estimated three fifty to four hundred thousand 450 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: elephants there when he did his big continental survey. They're 451 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: about twelve thousand left now, so it's pretty much the 452 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: end of the game there for elephants. But farther in 453 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: the Western Congo basin, Gabo is an example, the Republic 454 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: of Congo, that's the smaller one. There's still some elephants. 455 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: They've been greatly reduced, but there's still populations that are meaningful. Oh, 456 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: that's hard to answer. Um. Rough roughly fifty thou of 457 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: thousands sure, there's one park called me in Kebe that 458 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: has probably twice as many forest elephants as the entire 459 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: d RC. It's a place that the poachers no. Um 460 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: just received a report yesterday by the the Echo Guards 461 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 1: who are out looking at it, and despite massive intervention 462 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: by the government of Gabon, there are still big pockets 463 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: of poachers. So this is this is a problem. That 464 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: sure great to point out that there's political will in 465 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: Gabon and that they have a motivated National Parks Agency, 466 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: But when you're up against the scale of the problem, 467 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: the intensity, the danger of running into people who aren't 468 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: just going to run away when they're confronted, but are 469 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: going to stand and fight, this is a whole different dimension. 470 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: So the answer to your question is how bad is it? 471 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: It's horrible, It's terrible, and it's getting worse. Um, what's 472 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: the political situation? Then, what's the government situation there? Well, 473 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: DRC has been challenged by civil war for decades. Let 474 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: me put it this way, it's easy to see how 475 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: the government can be preoccupied with more urgent needs. That 476 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: must be the constant problem in some aspects of that. 477 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: Every country has to have priorities when you're talking about 478 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: putting your limited ability into saving people's lives versus saving 479 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: elephants lives. Well, there's an obvious priority there when you're there, 480 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: when you're when you're dealing with the people there, are 481 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: you encouraged by the amount of people, the percentage of people, 482 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: their native people who care about this issue when you 483 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,959 Speaker 1: think are really willing to take action or are they 484 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: in the in the minority? Well, it depends on where 485 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: you are and how you ask the question. I mean, 486 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: that's I lived with them for years, but you ask 487 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: them the questions how do they feel about elephants? So 488 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: what does living alongside of elephants mean to you? What 489 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: do you need to do things that are good for 490 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: that coexistence? And the answer is highly variable. In some places, 491 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: elephants don't really mess with people. They stay separate and 492 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: um that's the way both elephants and people prefer it. 493 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: In other places, agriculture tends to is tending more and 494 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: more as it expands to get into traditional elephant ranges, 495 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: and so that that interfaces now very obvious. And usually 496 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: when people in elephants are in conflict, elephants lose um first, 497 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: people lose their crops and sometimes get trampled, and that's 498 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: that's very serious. It's tragic. But eventually the elephants get bullets. 499 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: People love deer and Connecticut until they eat your flowers 500 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: and they want them shot. Sure, So you know, it 501 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: would be a similar thing if you were to ask 502 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: somebody whose apple crops are being destroyed by deer, what 503 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: do you think a deer? And they're going to tell 504 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: you that they're not very pleasant neighbors and their bad 505 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: garden pests. On the other hand, somebody who isn't affected 506 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: negatively by them can relate to their esthetic value. Africans 507 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: can do that. Many of them are very proud of elephants. 508 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: It's a part of their culture and their heritage. But 509 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: living with them is costly in a lot of ways, 510 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: and sometimes there needs to be an incentive, and the 511 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: distancentive is enforcing the lawn. Frankly, while that's very important, 512 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: it's only a short term solution that really doesn't get 513 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: to the cru of the issue. The crux is what 514 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: we're talking about, and that is the attitudes of people 515 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: and their willingness to coexist with large animals that compete 516 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: with people for water, for space, or in some cases, 517 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: are more profitable to them dead than alive. So sure, 518 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: it's it's an economic calculus, but it's not quite that simple. 519 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: They're also values, pride, etcetera. One of the things that 520 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: Beard said, which was more all encompassing on this theme 521 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: of the sentimentality of the conservation movement was you know 522 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: that evolution has to be allowed to take its course 523 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: in Africa in all ways, and and and then he 524 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: said that that AIDS was a blessing on the African continent, 525 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: that you know, something has got to happen there to 526 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: reduce that population. And do you find that in Africa? 527 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: Of course, they don't have an economy that compares with 528 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: out of the United States. A few places do, But 529 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: do you find that what's going on in economic policy 530 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: and social policy and agricultural food, energy, things that they 531 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: need for their human population to survive and to develop, 532 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: are those so bad that that it's understandable that the 533 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: elephants are going to follow by the wayside In some places, Um, 534 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: all of those factors help. In some places they're a 535 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: net negative. You know, Africa is a big, diverse continent, 536 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: and certainly there are examples of how all of those 537 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: factors can work to the favor of the natural system, 538 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: and there are certainly examples that in their absence or 539 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: when they're poorly applied, when economic development or agricultural policy, 540 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: or all of the things you mentioned. Forestry, you know, 541 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: Central African forests are being cut to provide hardwood for 542 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: international markets. So so so so be making people aware 543 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: of boycotting that market would be a step. Well, I wouldn't. 544 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say boycotting is is the right term or 545 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: the right approach. It's it's being an informed consumer. It's 546 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: it's about having more manageable stewardship of manageable stewardship certification, 547 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: but real certification that actually works and is transparent. This 548 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: is not news to anybody who's who's thought or spoken 549 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: about these things. But those practices are not yet perfected. UM. 550 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: We have an idea that those tools can be applied 551 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: very well and many of the things we're talking about 552 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: our tools. Development as an incentive for conservation is is 553 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: certainly known and it has been practiced, but it's still 554 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: it's a work in progress. UM. Sport hunting, for example, 555 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: can be an excellent tool to motivate and to derive 556 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: financial benefits to people who have to make sacrifices to 557 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: live with elephants, of sport, hunting, of what of elephants, 558 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: of of lions, and the very controversial subjects. Of course, 559 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: some people think elephants should never be hunted because they 560 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,479 Speaker 1: are extraordinary animals. Other people think of them as being 561 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: subject to any economic um, motivation or initiative. So there's 562 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 1: a wide spectrum of views that sort of get more 563 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 1: into philosophy and ethics than anything else. What are your 564 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: personal feelings about that? My biases, I've lived with elephants 565 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 1: for years and years. I studied them for my doctor 566 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:19,240 Speaker 1: at I took considerable risks to study them and certainly 567 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: to keep them alive, So I'm very biased. To me personally, 568 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: shooting an elephant for fun, for entertainment is not cool. However, 569 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: that doesn't deny the fact that other people find that 570 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: okay and that there can be benefits from a well 571 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: managed system. Look, if what Peter is saying is that 572 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,760 Speaker 1: wildlife needs to be managed, then I think he's correct. 573 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: Elephants need to be managed, so do people. In essence, 574 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: not the same way, obviously, but as the world becomes 575 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: more crowded, it's incumbent on all of us to think 576 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: of ways of making room for us all and not 577 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: to sacrifice something like the African elephant because of our 578 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: short sightedness or greed. I'm speaking of humanities, shortsightedness or greed. 579 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: So that's the challenge. Why do you think people, I 580 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: mean in the United States, where Americans are sadly as 581 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: obsessed with their cable, telephone, internet bundling charges more than 582 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: they are with the fate of species of animals around 583 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: the world. Why should Americans care about what's happening to 584 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: the great wildlife heritage in Africa. It comes down to 585 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: valuing elephants, their existence, what it means to the world. 586 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: Is the world a better place with or without elephants? 587 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: Because that choice is being played out passively admittedly, but 588 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: by our ineffectiveness or are in action, we're moving towards 589 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: a time when elephants are so greatly reduced. If it 590 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: matters to people that such remarkable creatures products of creation 591 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,959 Speaker 1: or evolution, as you choose, is the world a better 592 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: place or is it greatly diminished by the loss of 593 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: these animals? In my opinion, the world is a greatly 594 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: diminished place. The quality of life on Earth is diminished 595 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: when we lose key important things. There's a very practical 596 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: function that elephants provide. They have ecological value. They spread seeds, 597 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: they dig for water, they expose salt rich soils. In 598 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 1: their absence, things change and call it evolution, but it's 599 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: not a natural one because it's being caused by the 600 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: problem we're talking about. So there is an aesthetic value 601 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: to the world, there is a practical or ecological value 602 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: to the world, and in some cases there's a and 603 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: economic value to the world, and all of those things count. 604 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: A quick thought think about where the North American bison 605 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: was at the turn of the twentieth century. There are 606 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: probably more bison, admittedly in their altered form, in North 607 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: America now than there are elephants in Africa. And what 608 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: does that mean. It means that people's attitude toward them. 609 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: Maybe it's because rich landowners want to see the natural 610 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: fauna and therefore make the sacrifice of dedicating their pasture 611 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: land to them. Maybe it's because they like to eat 612 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: beef alow um. But whatever the motivation is, bison have 613 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: a value that justifies their populations. Going from a few 614 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: hundred back in the dark days two maybe half a million. 615 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: That says something. It's it's not an identical case. It's 616 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: sometimes dangerous to compare across tax and across continents, but 617 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: I think the concept is clear that unless people value 618 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: elephants aesthetically, practically, ecologically, unless they value them, people will 619 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: cease to have a motivation to preserve them. Remember what 620 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan said on Subterranean in Homesick Blues, you don't 621 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 1: need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. Sure, Okay, Well, 622 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: you know I have a scientific background, and science is 623 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: the basis of everything we do, and it needs to 624 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: be there and it needs to be good science. But 625 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: at the point we are now with what we're talking about, 626 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: it's about people and understanding them and how to deal 627 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:23,959 Speaker 1: with their desires, their their characteristics. And that's what we're 628 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 1: focusing on, and that's where a great deal of the 629 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,919 Speaker 1: hope is. You know, people are the problem, but they're 630 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 1: also the solution. For more information on Richard bridgero the 631 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 1: decimation of the elephants in Africa and what you can 632 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: do to help, visit Here's the Thing dot org. You'll 633 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: also see photographs by my first guest, Peter beard. It 634 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: was overwhelmingly obvious that this enormous park was being eaten 635 00:39:54,960 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 1: alive by an overpopulation of elephants. Because they've had a 636 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: nine year anti poaching campaign, they arrested all the traditional hunters. 637 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: They were locked up. The population soared ate the trees, 638 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: and poaching was used as an excuse to continue raising money. 639 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing, 640 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: m