WEBVTT - 6. Cold Pricklies 0:00:14.996 --> 0:00:33.916 Pushkin. After Verna and Doug drowned off Santa Cruz Island 0:00:34.116 --> 0:00:37.316 on January second, nineteen eighty one, their bodies were flown 0:00:37.356 --> 0:00:41.196 by helicopter back to Ventura County, where they were declared dead. 0:00:42.276 --> 0:00:45.356 The next day, January third, they were autopsied by the 0:00:45.396 --> 0:00:51.396 county's acting medical examiner. He concluded that they drowned by accident. 0:00:54.516 --> 0:00:57.076 But Santa Cruz Island is actually in the jurisdiction of 0:00:57.116 --> 0:01:00.916 Santa Barbara County, so that's why when Candy Henman wanted 0:01:01.036 --> 0:01:05.196 someone to investigate Fred, she called the Santa Barbara Sheriff's 0:01:05.196 --> 0:01:11.316 Department and they took her call. Candy's tip put the 0:01:11.436 --> 0:01:15.916 accidental drownings of Verna and Doug in a new, uncomfortable light. 0:01:16.956 --> 0:01:20.556 What if their deaths were not an accident. Verna and 0:01:20.596 --> 0:01:23.476 Doug were about to be cremated, so the Santa Barbara 0:01:23.476 --> 0:01:27.236 Sheriff's Department put a hold on their cremations and brought 0:01:27.236 --> 0:01:31.396 their bodies back to Santa Barbara to be autopsied again 0:01:33.236 --> 0:01:37.796 in secret. The date is January nine, nineteen eighty one. 0:01:38.076 --> 0:01:41.876 The location is the Cottage Hospital, Morgue. This is the 0:01:42.836 --> 0:01:48.556 re autopsy examination of a white female adult identified as 0:01:49.236 --> 0:01:52.636 Verna Joe Roller R O E H L E R. 0:01:54.476 --> 0:01:59.036 The body has been previously autopsied on January three, nineteen 0:01:59.036 --> 0:02:02.676 eighty one, by doctor Craig Duncan of the Ventura County 0:02:02.716 --> 0:02:14.476 Medical Examiner Corners Office, commencing section of bone. There were 0:02:14.476 --> 0:02:18.556 too many similarities to ignore. Two wives dead in the 0:02:18.596 --> 0:02:23.196 water for no clear reason, and Fred the only witness 0:02:23.276 --> 0:02:26.316 in both cases with a story that didn't really stand 0:02:26.396 --> 0:02:31.436 up to interrogation. But this time there was a second victim, 0:02:31.556 --> 0:02:36.716 a child. This will be the re autopsy examination of 0:02:36.796 --> 0:02:44.076 a white male child identified as Douglas Johnson. What if 0:02:44.076 --> 0:02:49.596 Fred had killed them all, Verna, Doug and Jean and 0:02:49.756 --> 0:02:56.636 was about to get away with it again. I'm Dana 0:02:56.716 --> 0:03:29.756 Goodyear and this is Lost Tells Episode six, Cold Prickles. 0:03:32.556 --> 0:03:35.716 Three months after Vernon and Dog died, Fred was arrested 0:03:35.836 --> 0:03:40.316 at home in Malibu. I was stunned. Here's Fred's recollection 0:03:40.316 --> 0:03:42.956 of what happened that day. I got the kids off 0:03:42.996 --> 0:03:45.356 the school, and I had taken a shower, and I 0:03:45.476 --> 0:03:49.396 was in The phone rang and so I said hello, 0:03:49.516 --> 0:03:53.076 and there was no answer. So then a little later 0:03:53.196 --> 0:03:56.396 the doorbell rang, so I walked downstairs and opened the 0:03:56.436 --> 0:04:00.876 door and there's three guys with guns aimed at beat 0:04:01.556 --> 0:04:05.916 and they said, we're here to arrest you. They handcuffed 0:04:05.916 --> 0:04:08.596 me and put me in the car and that was 0:04:09.236 --> 0:04:13.116 basically it. They drove him to the Malibu station and 0:04:13.156 --> 0:04:16.276 read him as rights. He was being held on two 0:04:16.396 --> 0:04:21.396 counts of homicide, one for Verna, one for Doug. I 0:04:21.596 --> 0:04:25.236 never thought it would get to that point, you know, because, 0:04:26.156 --> 0:04:28.916 like I say, I had answered all their questions. I 0:04:28.956 --> 0:04:31.596 had met with them three times. My family had talked 0:04:31.596 --> 0:04:35.276 to them. The people on the boat had talked to them. 0:04:35.476 --> 0:04:39.516 You know, I couldn't imagine anything that had been left unsaid. 0:04:40.516 --> 0:04:45.156 You know, we didn't have fights, there were you know, 0:04:45.236 --> 0:04:48.636 there was there was nothing going on. So when I 0:04:48.636 --> 0:04:52.116 got to the substation, they put me in a tank 0:04:52.196 --> 0:04:58.836 by myself. So then that night, Fairfield, my brother and 0:04:59.236 --> 0:05:02.556 sister in law all showed up at the place at 0:05:02.556 --> 0:05:08.076 the substation and were there when when I walked out, 0:05:08.516 --> 0:05:12.196 and they said are you okay? And I said how 0:05:12.556 --> 0:05:14.916 you know how the girls and Ron said, you know, 0:05:14.956 --> 0:05:16.956 don't worry about it. We were taking care of that. 0:05:17.796 --> 0:05:20.316 So that was the last discussion I had with them 0:05:20.356 --> 0:05:24.956 that night. Then they drove me to Santa Barbara. That night, 0:05:28.316 --> 0:05:32.276 Fred was taken to the Santa Barbara County jail and 0:05:32.396 --> 0:05:48.036 he never saw Sea Level drive again. Throughout the spring 0:05:48.076 --> 0:05:51.556 of nineteen eighty one, the Malibu rumor mill was cranking. 0:05:52.916 --> 0:05:55.876 The search warrant Affidavit was the hottest read in town, 0:05:56.516 --> 0:06:01.356 and it was juicy, full of details about Jean and 0:06:01.436 --> 0:06:05.036 her affair with Fred's sailing buddy Dick Fell, thawing about 0:06:05.076 --> 0:06:11.676 guns and hot tubs, and especially Fred's explosive temper. Neighbors 0:06:11.716 --> 0:06:22.916 were talking to each other and to the police. One 0:06:22.956 --> 0:06:25.796 Malibu woman had seen Verna at the market basket a 0:06:25.836 --> 0:06:28.556 month or two before she died, and Verna told her 0:06:28.676 --> 0:06:32.076 she was unhappy in her marriage. Someone else had seen 0:06:32.156 --> 0:06:35.596 Fred leaving Verna's house through the back door at eight am, 0:06:35.716 --> 0:06:39.356 just weeks after Jean's death. The neighbor who drove the 0:06:39.396 --> 0:06:42.156 kids home from school after Verna did said that when 0:06:42.236 --> 0:06:45.196 she dropped them off, she saw Fred lurking when she 0:06:45.316 --> 0:06:52.916 pulled up. This is Kathy Pullis, a Malibu mom whose son, 0:06:53.116 --> 0:06:56.796 a friend of Dougs, was also coached by Fred. She's 0:06:56.836 --> 0:06:59.916 being interviewed by a private detective hired by Fred's defense 0:06:59.956 --> 0:07:03.356 team since January. This is the tip of the terror. 0:07:03.596 --> 0:07:07.196 And immediately there was the division, No, who couldn't have 0:07:07.316 --> 0:07:11.316 done that? Yeah, and yes he probably did, Yeah he 0:07:11.396 --> 0:07:14.036 probably didn't. I mean I have those feelings. Some days 0:07:14.036 --> 0:07:16.516 I think he couldn't, couldn't possibly. In another days I think, 0:07:16.876 --> 0:07:19.276 but what if he did? You know? And everyone had 0:07:19.316 --> 0:07:23.156 an opinion or three about Fred Rayler? Did he kill 0:07:23.316 --> 0:07:27.516 Verna and Doug? What about Jean? Was it greed opportunism? 0:07:27.956 --> 0:07:31.116 Or was he a psychopath masquerading as a Malibu dad? 0:07:31.836 --> 0:07:35.516 And you have to understand Malibu is very very much 0:07:35.516 --> 0:07:38.516 a small town. We also think you'd be very sophisticated. 0:07:38.556 --> 0:07:41.356 But the fact is they were Nazi and this is 0:07:41.396 --> 0:07:45.116 the talk of the town. Or it has been. The 0:07:45.196 --> 0:07:49.076 allegation that Fred had murdered Verna and Doug, the investigator said, 0:07:49.396 --> 0:07:53.996 was largely based on circumstantial evidence. Fred's character was going 0:07:54.036 --> 0:07:58.076 to be a major topic. The arrest opened a rift 0:07:58.116 --> 0:08:01.196 in Malibu. You are either with Fred or against him. 0:08:01.956 --> 0:08:05.716 Fred's friend Mark Hatrick told me the divisions caused by 0:08:05.716 --> 0:08:08.996 the case drove him and his wife Beth to leave Malibu. 0:08:10.196 --> 0:08:14.876 All of the moms that are all you know of 0:08:14.916 --> 0:08:19.596 a certain level economic level and involved in that. You know, 0:08:19.676 --> 0:08:21.676 they all get together and they all talk, so there's 0:08:21.876 --> 0:08:25.276 there's sort of a gossipy group, and you know, right 0:08:25.276 --> 0:08:28.716 away they started all of these theories about well, you know, 0:08:28.956 --> 0:08:33.476 Jane's first wife died, and you know, that's pretty suspicious. 0:08:33.476 --> 0:08:35.316 And I think in a whole lot of ways, that's 0:08:35.356 --> 0:08:37.036 you know, a whole lot of ways. That's why we've 0:08:37.196 --> 0:08:42.356 you know, we've we left is because we just that 0:08:42.596 --> 0:08:46.556 was going to be an open wound with two sides 0:08:47.316 --> 0:08:52.836 that forever. That's just in that town. By the spring 0:08:52.836 --> 0:08:55.836 of nineteen eighty one, the gossip was so intense that 0:08:55.916 --> 0:08:58.036 a group of Malibu people wrote a letter to the 0:08:58.156 --> 0:09:01.636 editor of the Malibu Times begging for fellow residents to 0:09:01.676 --> 0:09:06.516 withhold judgment until after Fred's trial. They signed it Neighbors 0:09:06.596 --> 0:09:14.636 for Fairness to Fred Rayler. Carol, Jean's sister, told detectives 0:09:14.676 --> 0:09:18.756 Fred could be quote a class a charmer, quote so 0:09:18.996 --> 0:09:23.556 unbelievably charming at times, but Carol and others said Fred 0:09:23.676 --> 0:09:28.036 also had a nasty side. His whole affect could change 0:09:28.076 --> 0:09:31.396 in an instant. This is a colleague of Fred's from 0:09:31.396 --> 0:09:34.396 the naval base at point magoo talking to an investigator 0:09:35.796 --> 0:09:41.076 can be a very likable, charming individual, especially if I 0:09:41.076 --> 0:09:45.156 think if he wants to be accusing to be charming 0:09:45.316 --> 0:09:51.276 thoughts right off, very charming person. I think you can 0:09:51.356 --> 0:09:56.476 also blank at you blank so he you know he 0:09:56.556 --> 0:10:05.876 did this or that he has a capacity. Dennis O'Gorman 0:10:05.996 --> 0:10:08.956 also worked with Fred. He told an investigator that went 0:10:09.116 --> 0:10:13.396 Fred lost his temper look out and he just flew 0:10:13.436 --> 0:10:15.716 off the handles, the nostrils flaring red in the face, 0:10:17.156 --> 0:10:19.476 called me all kinds of four letter words, and he 0:10:19.596 --> 0:10:22.756 started screaming and ranting and raving and yellow man his 0:10:23.756 --> 0:10:26.276 like like a madman. He's going to completely office off 0:10:26.276 --> 0:10:29.356 his tree, just completely out of control. He was literally 0:10:29.356 --> 0:10:32.996 like a like a madman. Fred, he said, was so 0:10:33.156 --> 0:10:35.676 loathed at work that one guy had a picture of 0:10:35.716 --> 0:10:39.476 him blown up and turned into a dartboard. But he 0:10:39.556 --> 0:10:42.596 also said that somehow it was hard to stay mad 0:10:42.596 --> 0:10:48.036 at Fred. Even today, I can't dislike Fred. I mean, 0:10:48.476 --> 0:10:51.036 even if I really worked out all day long and 0:10:51.076 --> 0:10:53.556 I convinced myself of all the nancy things he did 0:10:53.596 --> 0:10:55.956 and stuck myself with kin to remember all the things 0:10:56.036 --> 0:11:00.236 he did to me, and I was just ready to 0:11:00.276 --> 0:11:02.396 kill him as as he walked in the door. I know, 0:11:02.676 --> 0:11:04.556 I know that when he walked from that door with 0:11:04.676 --> 0:11:06.876 a big silence face a couple of woody remarks that 0:11:06.916 --> 0:11:09.196 we could sit down in a beer together and and 0:11:09.396 --> 0:11:12.836 not be friends, but I just couldn't. It's strange. It's 0:11:12.876 --> 0:11:15.836 already having medium to understand what I'm saying, but he 0:11:15.876 --> 0:11:19.116 can't use a real charmer and putting back of my mind, 0:11:19.196 --> 0:11:20.916 I know I would never work with him again because 0:11:20.956 --> 0:11:23.556 he hasn't changed to bid. He has no respect for anyone. 0:11:25.356 --> 0:11:29.236 People are just pawned. They're just tools. So Fred was 0:11:29.276 --> 0:11:35.956 smart and calculating, and he used people like pawns and 0:11:36.076 --> 0:11:56.156 they didn't always even register the abuse. Among people in Malibu, 0:11:56.476 --> 0:11:59.996 Fred Rayler was known to run a tight ship. This 0:12:00.076 --> 0:12:03.556 is an interview Beth Hetrick gave an investigator. She taught 0:12:03.556 --> 0:12:07.076 with Erna and is married to Fred's friend Mark. You 0:12:07.116 --> 0:12:10.796 guys con siderally film of a guy in the journi 0:12:10.876 --> 0:12:16.276 of music school Christopher Clover plays because it was their strictness, 0:12:16.916 --> 0:12:19.756 but also that love and there's a lot of that 0:12:20.076 --> 0:12:25.236 was bred with the kids. Not everyone in Malibu got 0:12:25.276 --> 0:12:29.876 the Captain von Trapp thing. Sure they noticed how incredibly 0:12:29.916 --> 0:12:33.556 well behaved Fred and Verna's kids were, but maybe they 0:12:33.596 --> 0:12:38.556 were too well behaved. It was a little creepy. Fred 0:12:38.756 --> 0:12:44.236 came from a pretty tight, disciplined family. I mean, he's 0:12:44.276 --> 0:12:47.236 a Midwesterner really, and you know, we know what Midwesterners 0:12:47.276 --> 0:12:49.316 are like. You know, they're a little bit up tight. 0:12:49.396 --> 0:12:56.036 They have their own somewhat blinkered vision of life. I mean, 0:12:56.236 --> 0:12:58.396 I'm not saying this in a derogatory fashion. I'm saying 0:12:58.396 --> 0:13:00.476 this in the fashion of the let it all hang 0:13:00.516 --> 0:13:04.156 out Malibu crowd viewed it. This is our chival tape 0:13:04.196 --> 0:13:07.276 of Ivor Davis, a British journalist who was friends with 0:13:07.316 --> 0:13:10.916 Fred and Malibu. They coaches kids soccer together and he 0:13:11.076 --> 0:13:13.356 was one of the neighbors. For fairness to Fred Rayler. 0:13:14.036 --> 0:13:16.156 It seemed to him that Fred was the victim of 0:13:16.156 --> 0:13:21.996 a cultural misunderstanding my evaluation if you like, which I mean, 0:13:22.036 --> 0:13:26.316 here is a man Fred who didn't quite fit in Malibu, 0:13:26.876 --> 0:13:29.796 in newly affluent community where you do your own thing, okay, 0:13:30.156 --> 0:13:33.236 And he disciplined his children and people, you know, people said, 0:13:33.276 --> 0:13:36.596 my god, discipline your children, that's you know, you don't 0:13:36.596 --> 0:13:41.396 do that. He alienated some people, I think from my observations, 0:13:41.716 --> 0:13:44.756 who had been friendly with Werner by kind of pushing 0:13:44.796 --> 0:13:48.716 them out when he married her, and and by edging 0:13:48.716 --> 0:13:51.596 these people out, they took an instant dislike to him, 0:13:51.676 --> 0:13:56.156 or they bluted dislike him. So something like this comes along, 0:13:57.476 --> 0:14:00.356 a terrible tragedy like this, and people say, well, Fred 0:14:00.436 --> 0:14:03.116 was kind of weird anyway, and this is what happened 0:14:03.196 --> 0:14:06.596 justifies our impression. He was not the run of the 0:14:06.636 --> 0:14:10.876 mill guy, and the fact that he did discipline his 0:14:10.996 --> 0:14:14.236 kids was believable or not something of a negative factor 0:14:14.316 --> 0:14:18.076 in that community. Fred's approach to parenting set him apart 0:14:18.196 --> 0:14:21.476 and made him vulnerable to criticism, and it was a 0:14:21.516 --> 0:14:26.196 bit extreme. When I visited Fred's daughters in Colorado over 0:14:26.196 --> 0:14:30.396 the summer, they were full of stories about Fred's unusual discipline. 0:14:31.276 --> 0:14:33.436 Heidi pulled out a brick wrapped in a piece of 0:14:33.436 --> 0:14:36.276 paper with a little monster face drawn on it and 0:14:36.356 --> 0:14:40.996 the words cold Prickly in Fred's handwriting. The brick was 0:14:41.076 --> 0:14:44.396 part of Fred's punishment system, how he kept those kids 0:14:44.436 --> 0:14:47.716 so perfectly in line. It was the flip side of 0:14:47.716 --> 0:14:50.836 the warm fuzzies, the rewards you got for good behavior. 0:14:51.396 --> 0:14:55.236 The sisters explained how it worked. So I told you 0:14:55.396 --> 0:14:59.516 there was an actual story, like a book about cold 0:14:59.516 --> 0:15:02.396 prickles and warm fuzzies and how you feel when you 0:15:02.476 --> 0:15:06.156 like punch your sister in podsicleed prickly or whatever. And 0:15:06.236 --> 0:15:10.276 so he took this brick like a house red brick 0:15:10.436 --> 0:15:13.316 and covered it in brown paper and drew a cold 0:15:13.356 --> 0:15:17.196 prickly on it. And then the punishment was he would 0:15:17.196 --> 0:15:20.196 dole out how much time you had to spend carrying 0:15:20.236 --> 0:15:24.436 this brick around. And I only have a memory of 0:15:24.476 --> 0:15:26.956 having it one time, and Heidi had to take it 0:15:26.956 --> 0:15:31.076 to like soccer practice. That was the punishment. You had 0:15:31.116 --> 0:15:33.196 to carry it and you couldn't set it down. It 0:15:33.276 --> 0:15:38.516 was just that it was a concrete reminder of what 0:15:38.556 --> 0:15:41.436 you did. I remember going to the bathroom with it 0:15:41.516 --> 0:15:44.356 on my lap, like I can't put it down. I'm 0:15:44.356 --> 0:15:47.516 gonna get in trouble if I put it down. The 0:15:47.596 --> 0:15:49.436 other thing the kids had to do when they were 0:15:49.476 --> 0:15:53.436 bad was run. So those idyllic runs on the beach, 0:15:54.116 --> 0:15:58.636 some of those were done under duress. Like inside our 0:15:58.716 --> 0:16:01.556 kitchen cover there was our names and then there'd be 0:16:01.596 --> 0:16:04.956 tick marks, and for every tick mark, you had to run, 0:16:05.476 --> 0:16:08.276 and we ran as a family. But then if you 0:16:08.316 --> 0:16:11.516 had tick marks, you had to like run afterr tick marks. 0:16:12.396 --> 0:16:15.236 They'd run up and down. Let choose a beach, rain 0:16:15.516 --> 0:16:18.476 or shine. There is a story of me being out 0:16:18.476 --> 0:16:22.476 there by myself, running crying, and the neighbor called dad 0:16:22.516 --> 0:16:24.476 and was like, Fred, do you know Kirsten's out on 0:16:24.516 --> 0:16:28.156 the beach And she's like, yeah, she's working off her punishment. 0:16:28.556 --> 0:16:31.316 But he could see me from the porch or whatever. 0:16:31.356 --> 0:16:34.036 And also that was back in the seventies when parents 0:16:34.076 --> 0:16:40.316 weren't helicopter parents. Kim, the sisters agreed, was misperfect. Here's Kirsten. 0:16:41.076 --> 0:16:44.796 Kim never had the brick. Kirsten was the baby, so 0:16:45.036 --> 0:16:48.436 not in trouble as often Hidie and Doug they were 0:16:48.476 --> 0:16:50.756 the middle kids. And then Hide and Doug had the 0:16:50.796 --> 0:16:53.596 brick a lot, and let's just say the two of 0:16:53.636 --> 0:16:59.196 them became excellent runners. Doug especially was spirited, all boy. 0:16:59.276 --> 0:17:03.116 Fred once said, full of energy. Go go go tell 0:17:03.156 --> 0:17:06.356 about Doug's mischief a little bit. I mean, I can't 0:17:06.396 --> 0:17:08.476 I do remember one time it was funny. He was 0:17:08.556 --> 0:17:13.036 like decided to run away and he's like, okay, you know, 0:17:13.116 --> 0:17:17.276 my dad said okay, and he packed some stuff. I 0:17:17.276 --> 0:17:19.996 don't even think he made it very far, but like 0:17:20.036 --> 0:17:22.076 they would just they just loved us. They're like, all 0:17:22.156 --> 0:17:26.916 right Sea, you know, because of course he didn't run away, 0:17:26.956 --> 0:17:30.756 like walking the beaches of Malibu, poor me, you know, 0:17:31.436 --> 0:17:33.236 and he did. I think it just went down to 0:17:33.276 --> 0:17:36.996 our friend's house and then you know, came back. But 0:17:37.676 --> 0:17:41.636 I don't know. It wasn't you know, we were just argumented. 0:17:41.756 --> 0:17:44.596 It was just kids stuff, Like there was no brawls 0:17:44.716 --> 0:17:48.916 or anything major. It was just silly stuff. So sass. 0:17:49.156 --> 0:17:52.596 Like I think there was a lot of sass, and 0:17:52.636 --> 0:17:56.036 there was a little bit of I mean, Dad's told 0:17:56.076 --> 0:17:59.676 stories about how I would even be sassy or braddy 0:17:59.716 --> 0:18:03.636 to Verna and it would and Doug would give Dad 0:18:03.756 --> 0:18:07.196 attitude and they would have this like, well your little 0:18:07.716 --> 0:18:10.516 you know, Angel did this, and well you're a little 0:18:10.556 --> 0:18:13.116 I just did this. But so there was a bit 0:18:13.156 --> 0:18:18.556 of sass. Go. It wasn't any that was a specific dynamic. 0:18:18.996 --> 0:18:22.516 Kirston as sassing Verna and Doug assassing Fred, and it 0:18:22.596 --> 0:18:26.356 came out of another dynamic that Kirston was Fred's favorite 0:18:27.276 --> 0:18:36.476 and Doug was Verna's. Doddie Menville, one of the family's 0:18:36.476 --> 0:18:40.356 neighbors in Malibu said that Kirston's privileged position with Fred 0:18:40.756 --> 0:18:43.316 and Dougs with Verna was a thing in the marriage. 0:18:44.356 --> 0:18:48.836 She talked about it with an investigator. Yeah, they they 0:18:49.716 --> 0:18:56.996 had so two initial thing prime kid or pek or 0:18:57.036 --> 0:18:59.076 something like that. She may have shared that was somebody else. 0:18:59.076 --> 0:19:02.476 It was some initial that an ears while I guess 0:19:02.596 --> 0:19:05.076 even when kids are a moment might go PK or 0:19:05.116 --> 0:19:07.116 something like that if they felt the other one was 0:19:07.196 --> 0:19:15.436 being joy to their own favorite child. Fred even complained 0:19:15.476 --> 0:19:18.436 about Verna's relationship with Doug when he was at work. 0:19:19.036 --> 0:19:22.956 This is Dennis O'Gorman in an archival interview. From time 0:19:22.996 --> 0:19:24.836 to time he'd make mention, I say, of the boy, 0:19:24.916 --> 0:19:27.076 you know, but the boy didn't want to eat that 0:19:27.356 --> 0:19:29.596 or whatever, And then she'd make a special meal for him, 0:19:29.756 --> 0:19:32.476 or he always got some sort of special treatment, or 0:19:32.796 --> 0:19:34.956 sometimes he would get on the boy's case because the 0:19:34.956 --> 0:19:37.996 boy was spoiled so damned Lott and she'd be if 0:19:38.036 --> 0:19:39.516 she stood up for any of the kids. She would 0:19:39.516 --> 0:19:41.356 stand up for the boy before she was snapping the 0:19:41.396 --> 0:19:45.556 rest of them. The caeral thing. All these stories, they 0:19:45.556 --> 0:19:48.316 were starting to paint a picture of Fred, one that 0:19:48.356 --> 0:19:52.836 would be presented to the jury. Carol Jean's sister even 0:19:52.876 --> 0:19:55.636 got in on this. She felt moved to write a 0:19:55.716 --> 0:19:59.636 letter to the Santa Barbara Detectives. In it, she said 0:19:59.676 --> 0:20:04.876 that Fred often humiliated Doug. Once Doug disobeyed him by 0:20:04.956 --> 0:20:07.196 jumping out of their inflatable before it was all the 0:20:07.236 --> 0:20:10.876 way to shore. When Fred got hold of Doug, he 0:20:11.076 --> 0:20:16.436 kicked him. Doug, Jean's sister wrote to the detectives was 0:20:16.596 --> 0:20:41.996 quote a tortured little boy. This fall, I met up 0:20:42.036 --> 0:20:45.996 with a childhood friend of Dougs in Malibu. We met 0:20:46.036 --> 0:20:48.876 at the parking lot of the Trncus Market, an upscale 0:20:48.876 --> 0:20:53.636 mini mall on pH Okay, my name's John Lytell. I 0:20:53.676 --> 0:20:57.836 grew up with Dougie Johnson and there are all the 0:20:57.876 --> 0:21:01.716 families out here in Malibu until about nineteen Fan of 0:21:01.796 --> 0:21:05.276 nineteen eighty nineteen eighty one, and then John is Patty's son, 0:21:05.636 --> 0:21:08.876 so he literally grew up with Doug sharing Vernas Duplex 0:21:08.956 --> 0:21:12.636 on Broadbeach Road. He's a surfer and a sailor and 0:21:12.796 --> 0:21:16.676 now and La County Sheriff's deputy. I've been a sheriff 0:21:16.716 --> 0:21:20.476 for twenty over twenty one years, since June twenty one 0:21:20.556 --> 0:21:23.236 years and with the county for La for twenty two years. 0:21:24.236 --> 0:21:26.676 But in nineteen eighty one, he was eight years old 0:21:26.876 --> 0:21:29.916 and Doug's best friend. I'd asked him to take me 0:21:29.956 --> 0:21:33.116 around his old neighborhood. He got into my car, which 0:21:33.156 --> 0:21:37.276 is a Volvo Total Mom car. This fun a little 0:21:37.636 --> 0:21:39.116 and it's like one of the best cars ever to 0:21:39.116 --> 0:21:44.356 smuggle in smuggle drugs because this farrior. So there's my 0:21:44.396 --> 0:21:46.796 finger there, yeah, and that my foot. My other hand 0:21:46.836 --> 0:21:49.756 is about foot below it. It's like all foam in there, 0:21:50.196 --> 0:21:52.316 and they'd scrape it out and load it with happy 0:21:52.356 --> 0:21:56.076 stuff happy. We pulled onto pH and stopped at the 0:21:56.116 --> 0:22:00.996 intersection with Broadbeach Road. So is this like your turn 0:22:01.076 --> 0:22:03.676 into your childhood? Yeah, Broadreach and then there's one at 0:22:03.676 --> 0:22:05.876 the north end too. The Starbucks is in here, that's 0:22:05.916 --> 0:22:08.916 for sure. And trinkets didn't look that nice to market. 0:22:09.596 --> 0:22:13.436 It's kind of junky old store. There's no surf shop. 0:22:13.516 --> 0:22:17.476 There's no of these boutique shops there. We found a 0:22:17.476 --> 0:22:20.676 parking spot on the side of Broadbeach Road, just past 0:22:20.836 --> 0:22:24.236 where a private security guard was posted up. Down the 0:22:24.316 --> 0:22:27.236 road on the left was Verna's old house, where John 0:22:27.316 --> 0:22:31.636 had lived as a kid through the slats of the fence. 0:22:31.676 --> 0:22:34.396 You could see a big grassy yard edged with flowers 0:22:34.396 --> 0:22:37.476 and trees, and the ocean sparkling in the near distance. 0:22:40.676 --> 0:22:44.036 Sea Level Drive plunges off Broadbeach Road toward the ocean. 0:22:44.716 --> 0:22:47.676 It's blocked from car traffic by an electric fence, but 0:22:47.756 --> 0:22:52.276 there's a pedestrian gate. I think see that tree right there, Yeah, 0:22:52.396 --> 0:22:54.116 it's just the top of it. That's when we climbed 0:22:54.156 --> 0:22:56.076 all the time, and my dad had to come get 0:22:56.156 --> 0:22:59.356 us out of the tree. So that story gets told 0:22:59.396 --> 0:23:02.556 so many times at my at any of our family gatherings, 0:23:02.556 --> 0:23:05.836 because whenever we talk about Deuggie, my sister always brings 0:23:05.836 --> 0:23:07.636 it up. How my dad had We had like a 0:23:07.676 --> 0:23:10.436 stuck up in the tree, and Dougie is like telling 0:23:10.556 --> 0:23:13.516 us to our helper. We were saying help because we 0:23:13.516 --> 0:23:16.636 could climb up, but we couldn't climb down it. We 0:23:16.756 --> 0:23:19.956 followed Sea Level down as it turned parallel to the shore. 0:23:20.636 --> 0:23:23.756 The waves crashed against the wild beach where Fred and 0:23:23.836 --> 0:23:29.756 Verna's children used to do their runs. We're looking for 0:23:29.836 --> 0:23:34.076 three one, six, eight five. John was having a moment. 0:23:34.596 --> 0:23:38.036 It was almost like he was dreaming, like I don't 0:23:38.276 --> 0:23:41.516 remember the house as being this big. And that's funny 0:23:41.516 --> 0:23:43.476 because do you think as a little kid everything would 0:23:43.516 --> 0:23:47.916 be bigger now? But now it's it's everything just looks 0:23:48.076 --> 0:23:55.236 gigantic to me. This is weird. I haven't been down 0:23:55.236 --> 0:23:57.396 here since though I've never I've been down to this street, 0:23:57.516 --> 0:24:02.756 even on duty or anything like that. We stopped in 0:24:02.796 --> 0:24:05.916 front of a large contemporary house with an agave garden 0:24:06.036 --> 0:24:11.796 and board formed concrete retaining walls. So I remember this 0:24:11.916 --> 0:24:13.876 yard though. This yard was here and there was like 0:24:13.916 --> 0:24:18.916 a there's like a kid play structure. And then this 0:24:19.236 --> 0:24:22.916 John said Doug's death traumatized him and altered the course 0:24:22.916 --> 0:24:26.196 of his life. When his dad told him the news, 0:24:26.436 --> 0:24:30.516 he didn't understand at first. I don't think I talked 0:24:30.516 --> 0:24:33.436 for three days. It was weird. I don't think I 0:24:33.556 --> 0:24:35.356 ate for a bunch too. It's just weird because it 0:24:35.396 --> 0:24:38.436 was like Kevin, like part of your soul ripped out. 0:24:39.036 --> 0:24:40.796 They lived here and then they lived in that house 0:24:40.796 --> 0:24:42.436 with us up at l unit, so it was almost 0:24:42.436 --> 0:24:44.036 like you was a little brother, or like a brother, 0:24:44.156 --> 0:24:47.356 not even a little brother. Yeah, do you feel like 0:24:47.596 --> 0:24:50.876 you think about him or talk about him now? I've 0:24:50.876 --> 0:24:52.876 had a couple of days where like if I hear 0:24:52.916 --> 0:24:55.236 a song, I'll end up crying. It would be like 0:24:55.236 --> 0:24:57.956 a John Denver song, maybe Country Road or something like that. 0:24:58.316 --> 0:25:01.156 It's just something that hits your heartstrings. When he was 0:25:01.196 --> 0:25:05.516 a child, John said Fred had made him uncomfortable. I 0:25:05.516 --> 0:25:06.916 was a little bit afraid of my dad. But when 0:25:06.916 --> 0:25:08.436 I went over to other people's houses, I didn't think 0:25:08.436 --> 0:25:10.156 I'd have to be afraid their dads, but I was. 0:25:11.276 --> 0:25:13.876 You try to forget the stuff that makes you the 0:25:13.916 --> 0:25:16.516 most scared when you're a kid. So I don't like, 0:25:16.556 --> 0:25:18.956 I remember his face one hundred percent. That'll never go 0:25:19.036 --> 0:25:23.156 out of my brain. The feeling in the railer home, 0:25:23.236 --> 0:25:29.236 he said, was oppressive, no levity, no laughter. I believe 0:25:29.276 --> 0:25:31.716 there are evil characters at play, and I believe they're 0:25:31.756 --> 0:25:33.636 good people. So and I've known that since I was 0:25:33.636 --> 0:25:35.796 a little kid. So when you walk into a place 0:25:35.796 --> 0:25:38.636 and you feel evil, you just know it's there. It's 0:25:38.676 --> 0:25:41.516 not like you're seeing ghosts or anything like that. You 0:25:41.596 --> 0:25:44.676 just feel like you can feel energy. And I'm not 0:25:44.716 --> 0:25:47.036 trying to be like new age or metaphysical. You could 0:25:47.036 --> 0:25:50.276 just feel it. I was going to ask if Fred 0:25:50.396 --> 0:25:52.636 was your introduction to evil. Is that what you're saying 0:25:53.916 --> 0:25:55.836 I don't understand his thinking at the time, and when 0:25:55.876 --> 0:25:57.516 I look back at it now, I'm like, yeah, that 0:25:57.636 --> 0:26:01.796 was that's pretty evil. Doug's death, he said, had shaped 0:26:01.876 --> 0:26:04.916 him right down to the decision to become a cop. 0:26:05.756 --> 0:26:07.996 So I think we had Douggie and I had both 0:26:08.596 --> 0:26:10.836 wanted to be on that path of being a good guy, 0:26:10.916 --> 0:26:14.116 not not being an opportunist, of being the hero. I guess. 0:26:14.796 --> 0:26:19.716 So when that happened, Um, I don't know, it just 0:26:19.916 --> 0:26:23.076 it follows you your whole life. Psychologically, for me, it 0:26:23.236 --> 0:26:25.516 was like a challenge, and I think based back on 0:26:25.596 --> 0:26:29.396 what happened here and wanting to make sure the good 0:26:29.396 --> 0:26:33.196 guys protect the little ones or protect the innocent. I 0:26:33.236 --> 0:26:36.716 don't know. Maybe maybe Dougie had an effect on that, because, 0:26:36.796 --> 0:26:39.436 like I said, I won't if Dougie's dead. I gotta 0:26:39.476 --> 0:26:43.436 be the other half of them. Honestly, I gotta live. 0:26:47.756 --> 0:26:52.596 John stepped away for a second to collect himself. His 0:26:52.716 --> 0:26:55.356 life's over. I gotta live. I gotta live two eyes. 0:26:57.636 --> 0:27:00.556 So it's hard. It's like I have to just bring 0:27:00.596 --> 0:27:03.236 him with me everywhere. He's right here, and he's always here. 0:27:03.396 --> 0:27:06.636 He's always here. Every every decision I make, and stuff 0:27:06.636 --> 0:27:07.996 like that I know he's I mean, it might not 0:27:08.076 --> 0:27:10.356