1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:33,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin. After Verna and Doug drowned off Santa Cruz Island 2 00:00:34,116 --> 00:00:37,316 Speaker 1: on January second, nineteen eighty one, their bodies were flown 3 00:00:37,356 --> 00:00:41,196 Speaker 1: by helicopter back to Ventura County, where they were declared dead. 4 00:00:42,276 --> 00:00:45,356 Speaker 1: The next day, January third, they were autopsied by the 5 00:00:45,396 --> 00:00:51,396 Speaker 1: county's acting medical examiner. He concluded that they drowned by accident. 6 00:00:54,516 --> 00:00:57,076 Speaker 1: But Santa Cruz Island is actually in the jurisdiction of 7 00:00:57,116 --> 00:01:00,916 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara County, so that's why when Candy Henman wanted 8 00:01:01,036 --> 00:01:05,196 Speaker 1: someone to investigate Fred, she called the Santa Barbara Sheriff's 9 00:01:05,196 --> 00:01:11,316 Speaker 1: Department and they took her call. Candy's tip put the 10 00:01:11,436 --> 00:01:15,916 Speaker 1: accidental drownings of Verna and Doug in a new, uncomfortable light. 11 00:01:16,956 --> 00:01:20,556 Speaker 1: What if their deaths were not an accident. Verna and 12 00:01:20,596 --> 00:01:23,476 Speaker 1: Doug were about to be cremated, so the Santa Barbara 13 00:01:23,476 --> 00:01:27,236 Speaker 1: Sheriff's Department put a hold on their cremations and brought 14 00:01:27,236 --> 00:01:31,396 Speaker 1: their bodies back to Santa Barbara to be autopsied again 15 00:01:33,236 --> 00:01:37,796 Speaker 1: in secret. The date is January nine, nineteen eighty one. 16 00:01:38,076 --> 00:01:41,876 Speaker 1: The location is the Cottage Hospital, Morgue. This is the 17 00:01:42,836 --> 00:01:48,556 Speaker 1: re autopsy examination of a white female adult identified as 18 00:01:49,236 --> 00:01:52,636 Speaker 1: Verna Joe Roller R O E H L E R. 19 00:01:54,476 --> 00:01:59,036 Speaker 1: The body has been previously autopsied on January three, nineteen 20 00:01:59,036 --> 00:02:02,676 Speaker 1: eighty one, by doctor Craig Duncan of the Ventura County 21 00:02:02,716 --> 00:02:14,476 Speaker 1: Medical Examiner Corners Office, commencing section of bone. There were 22 00:02:14,476 --> 00:02:18,556 Speaker 1: too many similarities to ignore. Two wives dead in the 23 00:02:18,596 --> 00:02:23,196 Speaker 1: water for no clear reason, and Fred the only witness 24 00:02:23,276 --> 00:02:26,316 Speaker 1: in both cases with a story that didn't really stand 25 00:02:26,396 --> 00:02:31,436 Speaker 1: up to interrogation. But this time there was a second victim, 26 00:02:31,556 --> 00:02:36,716 Speaker 1: a child. This will be the re autopsy examination of 27 00:02:36,796 --> 00:02:44,076 Speaker 1: a white male child identified as Douglas Johnson. What if 28 00:02:44,076 --> 00:02:49,596 Speaker 1: Fred had killed them all, Verna, Doug and Jean and 29 00:02:49,756 --> 00:02:56,636 Speaker 1: was about to get away with it again. I'm Dana 30 00:02:56,716 --> 00:03:29,756 Speaker 1: Goodyear and this is Lost Tells Episode six, Cold Prickles. 31 00:03:32,556 --> 00:03:35,716 Speaker 1: Three months after Vernon and Dog died, Fred was arrested 32 00:03:35,836 --> 00:03:40,316 Speaker 1: at home in Malibu. I was stunned. Here's Fred's recollection 33 00:03:40,316 --> 00:03:42,956 Speaker 1: of what happened that day. I got the kids off 34 00:03:42,996 --> 00:03:45,356 Speaker 1: the school, and I had taken a shower, and I 35 00:03:45,476 --> 00:03:49,396 Speaker 1: was in The phone rang and so I said hello, 36 00:03:49,516 --> 00:03:53,076 Speaker 1: and there was no answer. So then a little later 37 00:03:53,196 --> 00:03:56,396 Speaker 1: the doorbell rang, so I walked downstairs and opened the 38 00:03:56,436 --> 00:04:00,876 Speaker 1: door and there's three guys with guns aimed at beat 39 00:04:01,556 --> 00:04:05,916 Speaker 1: and they said, we're here to arrest you. They handcuffed 40 00:04:05,916 --> 00:04:08,596 Speaker 1: me and put me in the car and that was 41 00:04:09,236 --> 00:04:13,116 Speaker 1: basically it. They drove him to the Malibu station and 42 00:04:13,156 --> 00:04:16,276 Speaker 1: read him as rights. He was being held on two 43 00:04:16,396 --> 00:04:21,396 Speaker 1: counts of homicide, one for Verna, one for Doug. I 44 00:04:21,596 --> 00:04:25,236 Speaker 1: never thought it would get to that point, you know, because, 45 00:04:26,156 --> 00:04:28,916 Speaker 1: like I say, I had answered all their questions. I 46 00:04:28,956 --> 00:04:31,596 Speaker 1: had met with them three times. My family had talked 47 00:04:31,596 --> 00:04:35,276 Speaker 1: to them. The people on the boat had talked to them. 48 00:04:35,476 --> 00:04:39,516 Speaker 1: You know, I couldn't imagine anything that had been left unsaid. 49 00:04:40,516 --> 00:04:45,156 Speaker 1: You know, we didn't have fights, there were you know, 50 00:04:45,236 --> 00:04:48,636 Speaker 1: there was there was nothing going on. So when I 51 00:04:48,636 --> 00:04:52,116 Speaker 1: got to the substation, they put me in a tank 52 00:04:52,196 --> 00:04:58,836 Speaker 1: by myself. So then that night, Fairfield, my brother and 53 00:04:59,236 --> 00:05:02,556 Speaker 1: sister in law all showed up at the place at 54 00:05:02,556 --> 00:05:08,076 Speaker 1: the substation and were there when when I walked out, 55 00:05:08,516 --> 00:05:12,196 Speaker 1: and they said are you okay? And I said how 56 00:05:12,556 --> 00:05:14,916 Speaker 1: you know how the girls and Ron said, you know, 57 00:05:14,956 --> 00:05:16,956 Speaker 1: don't worry about it. We were taking care of that. 58 00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:20,316 Speaker 1: So that was the last discussion I had with them 59 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:24,956 Speaker 1: that night. Then they drove me to Santa Barbara. That night, 60 00:05:28,316 --> 00:05:32,276 Speaker 1: Fred was taken to the Santa Barbara County jail and 61 00:05:32,396 --> 00:05:48,036 Speaker 1: he never saw Sea Level drive again. Throughout the spring 62 00:05:48,076 --> 00:05:51,556 Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty one, the Malibu rumor mill was cranking. 63 00:05:52,916 --> 00:05:55,876 Speaker 1: The search warrant Affidavit was the hottest read in town, 64 00:05:56,516 --> 00:06:01,356 Speaker 1: and it was juicy, full of details about Jean and 65 00:06:01,436 --> 00:06:05,036 Speaker 1: her affair with Fred's sailing buddy Dick Fell, thawing about 66 00:06:05,076 --> 00:06:11,676 Speaker 1: guns and hot tubs, and especially Fred's explosive temper. Neighbors 67 00:06:11,716 --> 00:06:22,916 Speaker 1: were talking to each other and to the police. One 68 00:06:22,956 --> 00:06:25,796 Speaker 1: Malibu woman had seen Verna at the market basket a 69 00:06:25,836 --> 00:06:28,556 Speaker 1: month or two before she died, and Verna told her 70 00:06:28,676 --> 00:06:32,076 Speaker 1: she was unhappy in her marriage. Someone else had seen 71 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 1: Fred leaving Verna's house through the back door at eight am, 72 00:06:35,716 --> 00:06:39,356 Speaker 1: just weeks after Jean's death. The neighbor who drove the 73 00:06:39,396 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 1: kids home from school after Verna did said that when 74 00:06:42,236 --> 00:06:45,196 Speaker 1: she dropped them off, she saw Fred lurking when she 75 00:06:45,316 --> 00:06:52,916 Speaker 1: pulled up. This is Kathy Pullis, a Malibu mom whose son, 76 00:06:53,116 --> 00:06:56,796 Speaker 1: a friend of Dougs, was also coached by Fred. She's 77 00:06:56,836 --> 00:06:59,916 Speaker 1: being interviewed by a private detective hired by Fred's defense 78 00:06:59,956 --> 00:07:03,356 Speaker 1: team since January. This is the tip of the terror. 79 00:07:03,596 --> 00:07:07,196 Speaker 1: And immediately there was the division, No, who couldn't have 80 00:07:07,316 --> 00:07:11,316 Speaker 1: done that? Yeah, and yes he probably did, Yeah he 81 00:07:11,396 --> 00:07:14,036 Speaker 1: probably didn't. I mean I have those feelings. Some days 82 00:07:14,036 --> 00:07:16,516 Speaker 1: I think he couldn't, couldn't possibly. In another days I think, 83 00:07:16,876 --> 00:07:19,276 Speaker 1: but what if he did? You know? And everyone had 84 00:07:19,316 --> 00:07:23,156 Speaker 1: an opinion or three about Fred Rayler? Did he kill 85 00:07:23,316 --> 00:07:27,516 Speaker 1: Verna and Doug? What about Jean? Was it greed opportunism? 86 00:07:27,956 --> 00:07:31,116 Speaker 1: Or was he a psychopath masquerading as a Malibu dad? 87 00:07:31,836 --> 00:07:35,516 Speaker 1: And you have to understand Malibu is very very much 88 00:07:35,516 --> 00:07:38,516 Speaker 1: a small town. We also think you'd be very sophisticated. 89 00:07:38,556 --> 00:07:41,356 Speaker 1: But the fact is they were Nazi and this is 90 00:07:41,396 --> 00:07:45,116 Speaker 1: the talk of the town. Or it has been. The 91 00:07:45,196 --> 00:07:49,076 Speaker 1: allegation that Fred had murdered Verna and Doug, the investigator said, 92 00:07:49,396 --> 00:07:53,996 Speaker 1: was largely based on circumstantial evidence. Fred's character was going 93 00:07:54,036 --> 00:07:58,076 Speaker 1: to be a major topic. The arrest opened a rift 94 00:07:58,116 --> 00:08:01,196 Speaker 1: in Malibu. You are either with Fred or against him. 95 00:08:01,956 --> 00:08:05,716 Speaker 1: Fred's friend Mark Hatrick told me the divisions caused by 96 00:08:05,716 --> 00:08:08,996 Speaker 1: the case drove him and his wife Beth to leave Malibu. 97 00:08:10,196 --> 00:08:14,876 Speaker 1: All of the moms that are all you know of 98 00:08:14,916 --> 00:08:19,596 Speaker 1: a certain level economic level and involved in that. You know, 99 00:08:19,676 --> 00:08:21,676 Speaker 1: they all get together and they all talk, so there's 100 00:08:21,876 --> 00:08:25,276 Speaker 1: there's sort of a gossipy group, and you know, right 101 00:08:25,276 --> 00:08:28,716 Speaker 1: away they started all of these theories about well, you know, 102 00:08:28,956 --> 00:08:33,476 Speaker 1: Jane's first wife died, and you know, that's pretty suspicious. 103 00:08:33,476 --> 00:08:35,316 Speaker 1: And I think in a whole lot of ways, that's 104 00:08:35,356 --> 00:08:37,036 Speaker 1: you know, a whole lot of ways. That's why we've 105 00:08:37,196 --> 00:08:42,356 Speaker 1: you know, we've we left is because we just that 106 00:08:42,596 --> 00:08:46,556 Speaker 1: was going to be an open wound with two sides 107 00:08:47,316 --> 00:08:52,836 Speaker 1: that forever. That's just in that town. By the spring 108 00:08:52,836 --> 00:08:55,836 Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty one, the gossip was so intense that 109 00:08:55,916 --> 00:08:58,036 Speaker 1: a group of Malibu people wrote a letter to the 110 00:08:58,156 --> 00:09:01,636 Speaker 1: editor of the Malibu Times begging for fellow residents to 111 00:09:01,676 --> 00:09:06,516 Speaker 1: withhold judgment until after Fred's trial. They signed it Neighbors 112 00:09:06,596 --> 00:09:14,636 Speaker 1: for Fairness to Fred Rayler. Carol, Jean's sister, told detectives 113 00:09:14,676 --> 00:09:18,756 Speaker 1: Fred could be quote a class a charmer, quote so 114 00:09:18,996 --> 00:09:23,556 Speaker 1: unbelievably charming at times, but Carol and others said Fred 115 00:09:23,676 --> 00:09:28,036 Speaker 1: also had a nasty side. His whole affect could change 116 00:09:28,076 --> 00:09:31,396 Speaker 1: in an instant. This is a colleague of Fred's from 117 00:09:31,396 --> 00:09:34,396 Speaker 1: the naval base at point magoo talking to an investigator 118 00:09:35,796 --> 00:09:41,076 Speaker 1: can be a very likable, charming individual, especially if I 119 00:09:41,076 --> 00:09:45,156 Speaker 1: think if he wants to be accusing to be charming 120 00:09:45,316 --> 00:09:51,276 Speaker 1: thoughts right off, very charming person. I think you can 121 00:09:51,356 --> 00:09:56,476 Speaker 1: also blank at you blank so he you know he 122 00:09:56,556 --> 00:10:05,876 Speaker 1: did this or that he has a capacity. Dennis O'Gorman 123 00:10:05,996 --> 00:10:08,956 Speaker 1: also worked with Fred. He told an investigator that went 124 00:10:09,116 --> 00:10:13,396 Speaker 1: Fred lost his temper look out and he just flew 125 00:10:13,436 --> 00:10:15,716 Speaker 1: off the handles, the nostrils flaring red in the face, 126 00:10:17,156 --> 00:10:19,476 Speaker 1: called me all kinds of four letter words, and he 127 00:10:19,596 --> 00:10:22,756 Speaker 1: started screaming and ranting and raving and yellow man his 128 00:10:23,756 --> 00:10:26,276 Speaker 1: like like a madman. He's going to completely office off 129 00:10:26,276 --> 00:10:29,356 Speaker 1: his tree, just completely out of control. He was literally 130 00:10:29,356 --> 00:10:32,996 Speaker 1: like a like a madman. Fred, he said, was so 131 00:10:33,156 --> 00:10:35,676 Speaker 1: loathed at work that one guy had a picture of 132 00:10:35,716 --> 00:10:39,476 Speaker 1: him blown up and turned into a dartboard. But he 133 00:10:39,556 --> 00:10:42,596 Speaker 1: also said that somehow it was hard to stay mad 134 00:10:42,596 --> 00:10:48,036 Speaker 1: at Fred. Even today, I can't dislike Fred. I mean, 135 00:10:48,476 --> 00:10:51,036 Speaker 1: even if I really worked out all day long and 136 00:10:51,076 --> 00:10:53,556 Speaker 1: I convinced myself of all the nancy things he did 137 00:10:53,596 --> 00:10:55,956 Speaker 1: and stuck myself with kin to remember all the things 138 00:10:56,036 --> 00:11:00,236 Speaker 1: he did to me, and I was just ready to 139 00:11:00,276 --> 00:11:02,396 Speaker 1: kill him as as he walked in the door. I know, 140 00:11:02,676 --> 00:11:04,556 Speaker 1: I know that when he walked from that door with 141 00:11:04,676 --> 00:11:06,876 Speaker 1: a big silence face a couple of woody remarks that 142 00:11:06,916 --> 00:11:09,196 Speaker 1: we could sit down in a beer together and and 143 00:11:09,396 --> 00:11:12,836 Speaker 1: not be friends, but I just couldn't. It's strange. It's 144 00:11:12,876 --> 00:11:15,836 Speaker 1: already having medium to understand what I'm saying, but he 145 00:11:15,876 --> 00:11:19,116 Speaker 1: can't use a real charmer and putting back of my mind, 146 00:11:19,196 --> 00:11:20,916 Speaker 1: I know I would never work with him again because 147 00:11:20,956 --> 00:11:23,556 Speaker 1: he hasn't changed to bid. He has no respect for anyone. 148 00:11:25,356 --> 00:11:29,236 Speaker 1: People are just pawned. They're just tools. So Fred was 149 00:11:29,276 --> 00:11:35,956 Speaker 1: smart and calculating, and he used people like pawns and 150 00:11:36,076 --> 00:11:56,156 Speaker 1: they didn't always even register the abuse. Among people in Malibu, 151 00:11:56,476 --> 00:11:59,996 Speaker 1: Fred Rayler was known to run a tight ship. This 152 00:12:00,076 --> 00:12:03,556 Speaker 1: is an interview Beth Hetrick gave an investigator. She taught 153 00:12:03,556 --> 00:12:07,076 Speaker 1: with Erna and is married to Fred's friend Mark. You 154 00:12:07,116 --> 00:12:10,796 Speaker 1: guys con siderally film of a guy in the journi 155 00:12:10,876 --> 00:12:16,276 Speaker 1: of music school Christopher Clover plays because it was their strictness, 156 00:12:16,916 --> 00:12:19,756 Speaker 1: but also that love and there's a lot of that 157 00:12:20,076 --> 00:12:25,236 Speaker 1: was bred with the kids. Not everyone in Malibu got 158 00:12:25,276 --> 00:12:29,876 Speaker 1: the Captain von Trapp thing. Sure they noticed how incredibly 159 00:12:29,916 --> 00:12:33,556 Speaker 1: well behaved Fred and Verna's kids were, but maybe they 160 00:12:33,596 --> 00:12:38,556 Speaker 1: were too well behaved. It was a little creepy. Fred 161 00:12:38,756 --> 00:12:44,236 Speaker 1: came from a pretty tight, disciplined family. I mean, he's 162 00:12:44,276 --> 00:12:47,236 Speaker 1: a Midwesterner really, and you know, we know what Midwesterners 163 00:12:47,276 --> 00:12:49,316 Speaker 1: are like. You know, they're a little bit up tight. 164 00:12:49,396 --> 00:12:56,036 Speaker 1: They have their own somewhat blinkered vision of life. I mean, 165 00:12:56,236 --> 00:12:58,396 Speaker 1: I'm not saying this in a derogatory fashion. I'm saying 166 00:12:58,396 --> 00:13:00,476 Speaker 1: this in the fashion of the let it all hang 167 00:13:00,516 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 1: out Malibu crowd viewed it. This is our chival tape 168 00:13:04,196 --> 00:13:07,276 Speaker 1: of Ivor Davis, a British journalist who was friends with 169 00:13:07,316 --> 00:13:10,916 Speaker 1: Fred and Malibu. They coaches kids soccer together and he 170 00:13:11,076 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 1: was one of the neighbors. For fairness to Fred Rayler. 171 00:13:14,036 --> 00:13:16,156 Speaker 1: It seemed to him that Fred was the victim of 172 00:13:16,156 --> 00:13:21,996 Speaker 1: a cultural misunderstanding my evaluation if you like, which I mean, 173 00:13:22,036 --> 00:13:26,316 Speaker 1: here is a man Fred who didn't quite fit in Malibu, 174 00:13:26,876 --> 00:13:29,796 Speaker 1: in newly affluent community where you do your own thing, okay, 175 00:13:30,156 --> 00:13:33,236 Speaker 1: And he disciplined his children and people, you know, people said, 176 00:13:33,276 --> 00:13:36,596 Speaker 1: my god, discipline your children, that's you know, you don't 177 00:13:36,596 --> 00:13:41,396 Speaker 1: do that. He alienated some people, I think from my observations, 178 00:13:41,716 --> 00:13:44,756 Speaker 1: who had been friendly with Werner by kind of pushing 179 00:13:44,796 --> 00:13:48,716 Speaker 1: them out when he married her, and and by edging 180 00:13:48,716 --> 00:13:51,596 Speaker 1: these people out, they took an instant dislike to him, 181 00:13:51,676 --> 00:13:56,156 Speaker 1: or they bluted dislike him. So something like this comes along, 182 00:13:57,476 --> 00:14:00,356 Speaker 1: a terrible tragedy like this, and people say, well, Fred 183 00:14:00,436 --> 00:14:03,116 Speaker 1: was kind of weird anyway, and this is what happened 184 00:14:03,196 --> 00:14:06,596 Speaker 1: justifies our impression. He was not the run of the 185 00:14:06,636 --> 00:14:10,876 Speaker 1: mill guy, and the fact that he did discipline his 186 00:14:10,996 --> 00:14:14,236 Speaker 1: kids was believable or not something of a negative factor 187 00:14:14,316 --> 00:14:18,076 Speaker 1: in that community. Fred's approach to parenting set him apart 188 00:14:18,196 --> 00:14:21,476 Speaker 1: and made him vulnerable to criticism, and it was a 189 00:14:21,516 --> 00:14:26,196 Speaker 1: bit extreme. When I visited Fred's daughters in Colorado over 190 00:14:26,196 --> 00:14:30,396 Speaker 1: the summer, they were full of stories about Fred's unusual discipline. 191 00:14:31,276 --> 00:14:33,436 Speaker 1: Heidi pulled out a brick wrapped in a piece of 192 00:14:33,436 --> 00:14:36,276 Speaker 1: paper with a little monster face drawn on it and 193 00:14:36,356 --> 00:14:40,996 Speaker 1: the words cold Prickly in Fred's handwriting. The brick was 194 00:14:41,076 --> 00:14:44,396 Speaker 1: part of Fred's punishment system, how he kept those kids 195 00:14:44,436 --> 00:14:47,716 Speaker 1: so perfectly in line. It was the flip side of 196 00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:50,836 Speaker 1: the warm fuzzies, the rewards you got for good behavior. 197 00:14:51,396 --> 00:14:55,236 Speaker 1: The sisters explained how it worked. So I told you 198 00:14:55,396 --> 00:14:59,516 Speaker 1: there was an actual story, like a book about cold 199 00:14:59,516 --> 00:15:02,396 Speaker 1: prickles and warm fuzzies and how you feel when you 200 00:15:02,476 --> 00:15:06,156 Speaker 1: like punch your sister in podsicleed prickly or whatever. And 201 00:15:06,236 --> 00:15:10,276 Speaker 1: so he took this brick like a house red brick 202 00:15:10,436 --> 00:15:13,316 Speaker 1: and covered it in brown paper and drew a cold 203 00:15:13,356 --> 00:15:17,196 Speaker 1: prickly on it. And then the punishment was he would 204 00:15:17,196 --> 00:15:20,196 Speaker 1: dole out how much time you had to spend carrying 205 00:15:20,236 --> 00:15:24,436 Speaker 1: this brick around. And I only have a memory of 206 00:15:24,476 --> 00:15:26,956 Speaker 1: having it one time, and Heidi had to take it 207 00:15:26,956 --> 00:15:31,076 Speaker 1: to like soccer practice. That was the punishment. You had 208 00:15:31,116 --> 00:15:33,196 Speaker 1: to carry it and you couldn't set it down. It 209 00:15:33,276 --> 00:15:38,516 Speaker 1: was just that it was a concrete reminder of what 210 00:15:38,556 --> 00:15:41,436 Speaker 1: you did. I remember going to the bathroom with it 211 00:15:41,516 --> 00:15:44,356 Speaker 1: on my lap, like I can't put it down. I'm 212 00:15:44,356 --> 00:15:47,516 Speaker 1: gonna get in trouble if I put it down. The 213 00:15:47,596 --> 00:15:49,436 Speaker 1: other thing the kids had to do when they were 214 00:15:49,476 --> 00:15:53,436 Speaker 1: bad was run. So those idyllic runs on the beach, 215 00:15:54,116 --> 00:15:58,636 Speaker 1: some of those were done under duress. Like inside our 216 00:15:58,716 --> 00:16:01,556 Speaker 1: kitchen cover there was our names and then there'd be 217 00:16:01,596 --> 00:16:04,956 Speaker 1: tick marks, and for every tick mark, you had to run, 218 00:16:05,476 --> 00:16:08,276 Speaker 1: and we ran as a family. But then if you 219 00:16:08,316 --> 00:16:11,516 Speaker 1: had tick marks, you had to like run afterr tick marks. 220 00:16:12,396 --> 00:16:15,236 Speaker 1: They'd run up and down. Let choose a beach, rain 221 00:16:15,516 --> 00:16:18,476 Speaker 1: or shine. There is a story of me being out 222 00:16:18,476 --> 00:16:22,476 Speaker 1: there by myself, running crying, and the neighbor called dad 223 00:16:22,516 --> 00:16:24,476 Speaker 1: and was like, Fred, do you know Kirsten's out on 224 00:16:24,516 --> 00:16:28,156 Speaker 1: the beach And she's like, yeah, she's working off her punishment. 225 00:16:28,556 --> 00:16:31,316 Speaker 1: But he could see me from the porch or whatever. 226 00:16:31,356 --> 00:16:34,036 Speaker 1: And also that was back in the seventies when parents 227 00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:40,316 Speaker 1: weren't helicopter parents. Kim, the sisters agreed, was misperfect. Here's Kirsten. 228 00:16:41,076 --> 00:16:44,796 Speaker 1: Kim never had the brick. Kirsten was the baby, so 229 00:16:45,036 --> 00:16:48,436 Speaker 1: not in trouble as often Hidie and Doug they were 230 00:16:48,476 --> 00:16:50,756 Speaker 1: the middle kids. And then Hide and Doug had the 231 00:16:50,796 --> 00:16:53,596 Speaker 1: brick a lot, and let's just say the two of 232 00:16:53,636 --> 00:16:59,196 Speaker 1: them became excellent runners. Doug especially was spirited, all boy. 233 00:16:59,276 --> 00:17:03,116 Speaker 1: Fred once said, full of energy. Go go go tell 234 00:17:03,156 --> 00:17:06,356 Speaker 1: about Doug's mischief a little bit. I mean, I can't 235 00:17:06,396 --> 00:17:08,476 Speaker 1: I do remember one time it was funny. He was 236 00:17:08,556 --> 00:17:13,036 Speaker 1: like decided to run away and he's like, okay, you know, 237 00:17:13,116 --> 00:17:17,276 Speaker 1: my dad said okay, and he packed some stuff. I 238 00:17:17,276 --> 00:17:19,996 Speaker 1: don't even think he made it very far, but like 239 00:17:20,036 --> 00:17:22,076 Speaker 1: they would just they just loved us. They're like, all 240 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:26,916 Speaker 1: right Sea, you know, because of course he didn't run away, 241 00:17:26,956 --> 00:17:30,756 Speaker 1: like walking the beaches of Malibu, poor me, you know, 242 00:17:31,436 --> 00:17:33,236 Speaker 1: and he did. I think it just went down to 243 00:17:33,276 --> 00:17:36,996 Speaker 1: our friend's house and then you know, came back. But 244 00:17:37,676 --> 00:17:41,636 Speaker 1: I don't know. It wasn't you know, we were just argumented. 245 00:17:41,756 --> 00:17:44,596 Speaker 1: It was just kids stuff, Like there was no brawls 246 00:17:44,716 --> 00:17:48,916 Speaker 1: or anything major. It was just silly stuff. So sass. 247 00:17:49,156 --> 00:17:52,596 Speaker 1: Like I think there was a lot of sass, and 248 00:17:52,636 --> 00:17:56,036 Speaker 1: there was a little bit of I mean, Dad's told 249 00:17:56,076 --> 00:17:59,676 Speaker 1: stories about how I would even be sassy or braddy 250 00:17:59,716 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 1: to Verna and it would and Doug would give Dad 251 00:18:03,756 --> 00:18:07,196 Speaker 1: attitude and they would have this like, well your little 252 00:18:07,716 --> 00:18:10,516 Speaker 1: you know, Angel did this, and well you're a little 253 00:18:10,556 --> 00:18:13,116 Speaker 1: I just did this. But so there was a bit 254 00:18:13,156 --> 00:18:18,556 Speaker 1: of sass. Go. It wasn't any that was a specific dynamic. 255 00:18:18,996 --> 00:18:22,516 Speaker 1: Kirston as sassing Verna and Doug assassing Fred, and it 256 00:18:22,596 --> 00:18:26,356 Speaker 1: came out of another dynamic that Kirston was Fred's favorite 257 00:18:27,276 --> 00:18:36,476 Speaker 1: and Doug was Verna's. Doddie Menville, one of the family's 258 00:18:36,476 --> 00:18:40,356 Speaker 1: neighbors in Malibu said that Kirston's privileged position with Fred 259 00:18:40,756 --> 00:18:43,316 Speaker 1: and Dougs with Verna was a thing in the marriage. 260 00:18:44,356 --> 00:18:48,836 Speaker 1: She talked about it with an investigator. Yeah, they they 261 00:18:49,716 --> 00:18:56,996 Speaker 1: had so two initial thing prime kid or pek or 262 00:18:57,036 --> 00:18:59,076 Speaker 1: something like that. She may have shared that was somebody else. 263 00:18:59,076 --> 00:19:02,476 Speaker 1: It was some initial that an ears while I guess 264 00:19:02,596 --> 00:19:05,076 Speaker 1: even when kids are a moment might go PK or 265 00:19:05,116 --> 00:19:07,116 Speaker 1: something like that if they felt the other one was 266 00:19:07,196 --> 00:19:15,436 Speaker 1: being joy to their own favorite child. Fred even complained 267 00:19:15,476 --> 00:19:18,436 Speaker 1: about Verna's relationship with Doug when he was at work. 268 00:19:19,036 --> 00:19:22,956 Speaker 1: This is Dennis O'Gorman in an archival interview. From time 269 00:19:22,996 --> 00:19:24,836 Speaker 1: to time he'd make mention, I say, of the boy, 270 00:19:24,916 --> 00:19:27,076 Speaker 1: you know, but the boy didn't want to eat that 271 00:19:27,356 --> 00:19:29,596 Speaker 1: or whatever, And then she'd make a special meal for him, 272 00:19:29,756 --> 00:19:32,476 Speaker 1: or he always got some sort of special treatment, or 273 00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:34,956 Speaker 1: sometimes he would get on the boy's case because the 274 00:19:34,956 --> 00:19:37,996 Speaker 1: boy was spoiled so damned Lott and she'd be if 275 00:19:38,036 --> 00:19:39,516 Speaker 1: she stood up for any of the kids. She would 276 00:19:39,516 --> 00:19:41,356 Speaker 1: stand up for the boy before she was snapping the 277 00:19:41,396 --> 00:19:45,556 Speaker 1: rest of them. The caeral thing. All these stories, they 278 00:19:45,556 --> 00:19:48,316 Speaker 1: were starting to paint a picture of Fred, one that 279 00:19:48,356 --> 00:19:52,836 Speaker 1: would be presented to the jury. Carol Jean's sister even 280 00:19:52,876 --> 00:19:55,636 Speaker 1: got in on this. She felt moved to write a 281 00:19:55,716 --> 00:19:59,636 Speaker 1: letter to the Santa Barbara Detectives. In it, she said 282 00:19:59,676 --> 00:20:04,876 Speaker 1: that Fred often humiliated Doug. Once Doug disobeyed him by 283 00:20:04,956 --> 00:20:07,196 Speaker 1: jumping out of their inflatable before it was all the 284 00:20:07,236 --> 00:20:10,876 Speaker 1: way to shore. When Fred got hold of Doug, he 285 00:20:11,076 --> 00:20:16,436 Speaker 1: kicked him. Doug, Jean's sister wrote to the detectives was 286 00:20:16,596 --> 00:20:41,996 Speaker 1: quote a tortured little boy. This fall, I met up 287 00:20:42,036 --> 00:20:45,996 Speaker 1: with a childhood friend of Dougs in Malibu. We met 288 00:20:46,036 --> 00:20:48,876 Speaker 1: at the parking lot of the Trncus Market, an upscale 289 00:20:48,876 --> 00:20:53,636 Speaker 1: mini mall on pH Okay, my name's John Lytell. I 290 00:20:53,676 --> 00:20:57,836 Speaker 1: grew up with Dougie Johnson and there are all the 291 00:20:57,876 --> 00:21:01,716 Speaker 1: families out here in Malibu until about nineteen Fan of 292 00:21:01,796 --> 00:21:05,276 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nineteen eighty one, and then John is Patty's son, 293 00:21:05,636 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 1: so he literally grew up with Doug sharing Vernas Duplex 294 00:21:08,956 --> 00:21:12,636 Speaker 1: on Broadbeach Road. He's a surfer and a sailor and 295 00:21:12,796 --> 00:21:16,676 Speaker 1: now and La County Sheriff's deputy. I've been a sheriff 296 00:21:16,716 --> 00:21:20,476 Speaker 1: for twenty over twenty one years, since June twenty one 297 00:21:20,556 --> 00:21:23,236 Speaker 1: years and with the county for La for twenty two years. 298 00:21:24,236 --> 00:21:26,676 Speaker 1: But in nineteen eighty one, he was eight years old 299 00:21:26,876 --> 00:21:29,916 Speaker 1: and Doug's best friend. I'd asked him to take me 300 00:21:29,956 --> 00:21:33,116 Speaker 1: around his old neighborhood. He got into my car, which 301 00:21:33,156 --> 00:21:37,276 Speaker 1: is a Volvo Total Mom car. This fun a little 302 00:21:37,636 --> 00:21:39,116 Speaker 1: and it's like one of the best cars ever to 303 00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:44,356 Speaker 1: smuggle in smuggle drugs because this farrior. So there's my 304 00:21:44,396 --> 00:21:46,796 Speaker 1: finger there, yeah, and that my foot. My other hand 305 00:21:46,836 --> 00:21:49,756 Speaker 1: is about foot below it. It's like all foam in there, 306 00:21:50,196 --> 00:21:52,316 Speaker 1: and they'd scrape it out and load it with happy 307 00:21:52,356 --> 00:21:56,076 Speaker 1: stuff happy. We pulled onto pH and stopped at the 308 00:21:56,116 --> 00:22:00,996 Speaker 1: intersection with Broadbeach Road. So is this like your turn 309 00:22:01,076 --> 00:22:03,676 Speaker 1: into your childhood? Yeah, Broadreach and then there's one at 310 00:22:03,676 --> 00:22:05,876 Speaker 1: the north end too. The Starbucks is in here, that's 311 00:22:05,916 --> 00:22:08,916 Speaker 1: for sure. And trinkets didn't look that nice to market. 312 00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:13,436 Speaker 1: It's kind of junky old store. There's no surf shop. 313 00:22:13,516 --> 00:22:17,476 Speaker 1: There's no of these boutique shops there. We found a 314 00:22:17,476 --> 00:22:20,676 Speaker 1: parking spot on the side of Broadbeach Road, just past 315 00:22:20,836 --> 00:22:24,236 Speaker 1: where a private security guard was posted up. Down the 316 00:22:24,316 --> 00:22:27,236 Speaker 1: road on the left was Verna's old house, where John 317 00:22:27,316 --> 00:22:31,636 Speaker 1: had lived as a kid through the slats of the fence. 318 00:22:31,676 --> 00:22:34,396 Speaker 1: You could see a big grassy yard edged with flowers 319 00:22:34,396 --> 00:22:37,476 Speaker 1: and trees, and the ocean sparkling in the near distance. 320 00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:44,036 Speaker 1: Sea Level Drive plunges off Broadbeach Road toward the ocean. 321 00:22:44,716 --> 00:22:47,676 Speaker 1: It's blocked from car traffic by an electric fence, but 322 00:22:47,756 --> 00:22:52,276 Speaker 1: there's a pedestrian gate. I think see that tree right there, Yeah, 323 00:22:52,396 --> 00:22:54,116 Speaker 1: it's just the top of it. That's when we climbed 324 00:22:54,156 --> 00:22:56,076 Speaker 1: all the time, and my dad had to come get 325 00:22:56,156 --> 00:22:59,356 Speaker 1: us out of the tree. So that story gets told 326 00:22:59,396 --> 00:23:02,556 Speaker 1: so many times at my at any of our family gatherings, 327 00:23:02,556 --> 00:23:05,836 Speaker 1: because whenever we talk about Deuggie, my sister always brings 328 00:23:05,836 --> 00:23:07,636 Speaker 1: it up. How my dad had We had like a 329 00:23:07,676 --> 00:23:10,436 Speaker 1: stuck up in the tree, and Dougie is like telling 330 00:23:10,556 --> 00:23:13,516 Speaker 1: us to our helper. We were saying help because we 331 00:23:13,516 --> 00:23:16,636 Speaker 1: could climb up, but we couldn't climb down it. We 332 00:23:16,756 --> 00:23:19,956 Speaker 1: followed Sea Level down as it turned parallel to the shore. 333 00:23:20,636 --> 00:23:23,756 Speaker 1: The waves crashed against the wild beach where Fred and 334 00:23:23,836 --> 00:23:29,756 Speaker 1: Verna's children used to do their runs. We're looking for 335 00:23:29,836 --> 00:23:34,076 Speaker 1: three one, six, eight five. John was having a moment. 336 00:23:34,596 --> 00:23:38,036 Speaker 1: It was almost like he was dreaming, like I don't 337 00:23:38,276 --> 00:23:41,516 Speaker 1: remember the house as being this big. And that's funny 338 00:23:41,516 --> 00:23:43,476 Speaker 1: because do you think as a little kid everything would 339 00:23:43,516 --> 00:23:47,916 Speaker 1: be bigger now? But now it's it's everything just looks 340 00:23:48,076 --> 00:23:55,236 Speaker 1: gigantic to me. This is weird. I haven't been down 341 00:23:55,236 --> 00:23:57,396 Speaker 1: here since though I've never I've been down to this street, 342 00:23:57,516 --> 00:24:02,756 Speaker 1: even on duty or anything like that. We stopped in 343 00:24:02,796 --> 00:24:05,916 Speaker 1: front of a large contemporary house with an agave garden 344 00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:11,796 Speaker 1: and board formed concrete retaining walls. So I remember this 345 00:24:11,916 --> 00:24:13,876 Speaker 1: yard though. This yard was here and there was like 346 00:24:13,916 --> 00:24:18,916 Speaker 1: a there's like a kid play structure. And then this 347 00:24:19,236 --> 00:24:22,916 Speaker 1: John said Doug's death traumatized him and altered the course 348 00:24:22,916 --> 00:24:26,196 Speaker 1: of his life. When his dad told him the news, 349 00:24:26,436 --> 00:24:30,516 Speaker 1: he didn't understand at first. I don't think I talked 350 00:24:30,516 --> 00:24:33,436 Speaker 1: for three days. It was weird. I don't think I 351 00:24:33,556 --> 00:24:35,356 Speaker 1: ate for a bunch too. It's just weird because it 352 00:24:35,396 --> 00:24:38,436 Speaker 1: was like Kevin, like part of your soul ripped out. 353 00:24:39,036 --> 00:24:40,796 Speaker 1: They lived here and then they lived in that house 354 00:24:40,796 --> 00:24:42,436 Speaker 1: with us up at l unit, so it was almost 355 00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:44,036 Speaker 1: like you was a little brother, or like a brother, 356 00:24:44,156 --> 00:24:47,356 Speaker 1: not even a little brother. Yeah, do you feel like 357 00:24:47,596 --> 00:24:50,876 Speaker 1: you think about him or talk about him now? I've 358 00:24:50,876 --> 00:24:52,876 Speaker 1: had a couple of days where like if I hear 359 00:24:52,916 --> 00:24:55,236 Speaker 1: a song, I'll end up crying. It would be like 360 00:24:55,236 --> 00:24:57,956 Speaker 1: a John Denver song, maybe Country Road or something like that. 361 00:24:58,316 --> 00:25:01,156 Speaker 1: It's just something that hits your heartstrings. When he was 362 00:25:01,196 --> 00:25:05,516 Speaker 1: a child, John said Fred had made him uncomfortable. I 363 00:25:05,516 --> 00:25:06,916 Speaker 1: was a little bit afraid of my dad. But when 364 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:08,436 Speaker 1: I went over to other people's houses, I didn't think 365 00:25:08,436 --> 00:25:10,156 Speaker 1: I'd have to be afraid their dads, but I was. 366 00:25:11,276 --> 00:25:13,876 Speaker 1: You try to forget the stuff that makes you the 367 00:25:13,916 --> 00:25:16,516 Speaker 1: most scared when you're a kid. So I don't like, 368 00:25:16,556 --> 00:25:18,956 Speaker 1: I remember his face one hundred percent. That'll never go 369 00:25:19,036 --> 00:25:23,156 Speaker 1: out of my brain. The feeling in the railer home, 370 00:25:23,236 --> 00:25:29,236 Speaker 1: he said, was oppressive, no levity, no laughter. I believe 371 00:25:29,276 --> 00:25:31,716 Speaker 1: there are evil characters at play, and I believe they're 372 00:25:31,756 --> 00:25:33,636 Speaker 1: good people. So and I've known that since I was 373 00:25:33,636 --> 00:25:35,796 Speaker 1: a little kid. So when you walk into a place 374 00:25:35,796 --> 00:25:38,636 Speaker 1: and you feel evil, you just know it's there. It's 375 00:25:38,676 --> 00:25:41,516 Speaker 1: not like you're seeing ghosts or anything like that. You 376 00:25:41,596 --> 00:25:44,676 Speaker 1: just feel like you can feel energy. And I'm not 377 00:25:44,716 --> 00:25:47,036 Speaker 1: trying to be like new age or metaphysical. You could 378 00:25:47,036 --> 00:25:50,276 Speaker 1: just feel it. I was going to ask if Fred 379 00:25:50,396 --> 00:25:52,636 Speaker 1: was your introduction to evil. Is that what you're saying 380 00:25:53,916 --> 00:25:55,836 Speaker 1: I don't understand his thinking at the time, and when 381 00:25:55,876 --> 00:25:57,516 Speaker 1: I look back at it now, I'm like, yeah, that 382 00:25:57,636 --> 00:26:01,796 Speaker 1: was that's pretty evil. Doug's death, he said, had shaped 383 00:26:01,876 --> 00:26:04,916 Speaker 1: him right down to the decision to become a cop. 384 00:26:05,756 --> 00:26:07,996 Speaker 1: So I think we had Douggie and I had both 385 00:26:08,596 --> 00:26:10,836 Speaker 1: wanted to be on that path of being a good guy, 386 00:26:10,916 --> 00:26:14,116 Speaker 1: not not being an opportunist, of being the hero. I guess. 387 00:26:14,796 --> 00:26:19,716 Speaker 1: So when that happened, Um, I don't know, it just 388 00:26:19,916 --> 00:26:23,076 Speaker 1: it follows you your whole life. Psychologically, for me, it 389 00:26:23,236 --> 00:26:25,516 Speaker 1: was like a challenge, and I think based back on 390 00:26:25,596 --> 00:26:29,396 Speaker 1: what happened here and wanting to make sure the good 391 00:26:29,396 --> 00:26:33,196 Speaker 1: guys protect the little ones or protect the innocent. I 392 00:26:33,236 --> 00:26:36,716 Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe maybe Dougie had an effect on that, because, 393 00:26:36,796 --> 00:26:39,436 Speaker 1: like I said, I won't if Dougie's dead. I gotta 394 00:26:39,476 --> 00:26:43,436 Speaker 1: be the other half of them. Honestly, I gotta live. 395 00:26:47,756 --> 00:26:52,596 Speaker 1: John stepped away for a second to collect himself. His 396 00:26:52,716 --> 00:26:55,356 Speaker 1: life's over. I gotta live. I gotta live two eyes. 397 00:26:57,636 --> 00:27:00,556 Speaker 1: So it's hard. It's like I have to just bring 398 00:27:00,596 --> 00:27:03,236 Speaker 1: him with me everywhere. He's right here, and he's always here. 399 00:27:03,396 --> 00:27:06,636 Speaker 1: He's always here. Every every decision I make, and stuff 400 00:27:06,636 --> 00:27:07,996 Speaker 1: like that I know he's I mean, it might not 401 00:27:08,076 --> 00:27:10,356 Speaker 1: be like something that I put my head and I'm like, Okay, 402 00:27:11,116 --> 00:27:13,196 Speaker 1: what do you think, Dougie. It sound like an imaginary friend. 403 00:27:13,196 --> 00:27:25,036 Speaker 1: It's just he's there. He doesn't know the details of 404 00:27:25,076 --> 00:27:28,756 Speaker 1: what happened to Doug They still elude him. What he 405 00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:31,596 Speaker 1: believes is a jumble of what he overheard the grown 406 00:27:31,636 --> 00:27:34,196 Speaker 1: ups whispering about when he was eight and things he's 407 00:27:34,236 --> 00:27:37,116 Speaker 1: read online. And that's a big part of why I 408 00:27:37,156 --> 00:27:39,996 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to him, because he has an emotional 409 00:27:40,036 --> 00:27:43,596 Speaker 1: investment in the case and knows the players, and he 410 00:27:43,636 --> 00:27:46,196 Speaker 1: has a detective's ability to help make sense of all 411 00:27:46,236 --> 00:27:49,836 Speaker 1: the contradictions. First, I had to get him up to 412 00:27:49,836 --> 00:27:52,676 Speaker 1: speed on what the first autopsy showed. He didn't even 413 00:27:52,756 --> 00:27:55,156 Speaker 1: know about them, and when I told him about the 414 00:27:55,316 --> 00:28:00,356 Speaker 1: accidental drowning determination, it really threw him. I know you're 415 00:28:00,356 --> 00:28:02,836 Speaker 1: about the messgy, but from a law enfortion of perspective, 416 00:28:02,916 --> 00:28:06,996 Speaker 1: I would love to know more because there had to 417 00:28:06,996 --> 00:28:09,636 Speaker 1: be something more for them to come to that conclusion. 418 00:28:10,876 --> 00:28:12,836 Speaker 1: It was noisy on the streets, so we went back 419 00:28:12,876 --> 00:28:15,596 Speaker 1: to the car and sat there for a minute. I 420 00:28:15,596 --> 00:28:22,276 Speaker 1: could feel him bracing himself, so how do they die drowning, 421 00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:30,236 Speaker 1: just straight drowning. They're not gonna just drown That's what 422 00:28:30,276 --> 00:28:32,676 Speaker 1: I mean. They're not gonna just like, oh, we're done swimming, 423 00:28:32,676 --> 00:28:35,436 Speaker 1: We're gonna just die. That just doesn't Both of them 424 00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:39,396 Speaker 1: could swim, so unless they were knocked unconscious, unless they 425 00:28:39,476 --> 00:28:44,396 Speaker 1: were or what I think. Okay, the story to me 426 00:28:44,516 --> 00:28:49,596 Speaker 1: is total bs. First off, there's a rip or whatever 427 00:28:49,636 --> 00:28:51,836 Speaker 1: it is, a rip or undertow whatever could pull them. 428 00:28:51,876 --> 00:28:54,476 Speaker 1: Nothing's pulling them down. It's if anything, it's shooting at 429 00:28:54,516 --> 00:28:56,996 Speaker 1: him away from wherever they are, like there's an eddy 430 00:28:57,116 --> 00:29:00,076 Speaker 1: or something like that, where they're not actually stuck in 431 00:29:00,116 --> 00:29:02,636 Speaker 1: that area. So for them to say float, it's not 432 00:29:02,716 --> 00:29:05,556 Speaker 1: hard unless they're knocked out. But if they were knocked out, 433 00:29:05,596 --> 00:29:10,236 Speaker 1: there's trauma. John pulled out his phone and zoomed in 434 00:29:10,316 --> 00:29:13,756 Speaker 1: on a map of Santa Cruz Island. Even to think 435 00:29:13,756 --> 00:29:16,436 Speaker 1: about it makes me kind of sick. It makes me ill. So, 436 00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:17,996 Speaker 1: but I know what people do, and I know what 437 00:29:18,036 --> 00:29:21,436 Speaker 1: people will go to to get stuff done. Nobody saw 438 00:29:21,476 --> 00:29:24,796 Speaker 1: him kill him, Nobody saw the boat flip over, right, 439 00:29:26,636 --> 00:29:29,556 Speaker 1: So it's like for the innocent side of it and 440 00:29:29,596 --> 00:29:33,236 Speaker 1: the guilty side of it, nothing's seen. How did that happen? 441 00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:36,356 Speaker 1: How is that possible for happen? Yeah, I don't know. 442 00:29:36,796 --> 00:29:37,836 Speaker 1: I would have to go out there and take a 443 00:29:37,836 --> 00:29:39,316 Speaker 1: look at it. But look, we don't have to wait 444 00:29:39,356 --> 00:29:41,396 Speaker 1: for you to be able to Captain Doug has no 445 00:29:41,476 --> 00:29:44,876 Speaker 1: grave sights, and John had never seen where his best 446 00:29:44,876 --> 00:29:49,116 Speaker 1: friend died. Right there, sitting in the car with me, 447 00:29:49,756 --> 00:29:52,236 Speaker 1: he decided that he needed to go to Bird Rock. 448 00:29:54,596 --> 00:30:05,636 Speaker 1: There was just too much that didn't make sense. John 449 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:08,916 Speaker 1: Lighttell is confused today, just like everyone in Malibu was 450 00:30:09,116 --> 00:30:14,476 Speaker 1: confused back then because the evidence was confusing, contradictory. And 451 00:30:14,636 --> 00:30:18,796 Speaker 1: then doctor Craig Duncan, who did the first autopsies, had 452 00:30:18,796 --> 00:30:24,396 Speaker 1: observed no signs of trauma. The second secret autopsies, they 453 00:30:24,436 --> 00:30:31,596 Speaker 1: told a drastically different story. Doctor DeWitt Hunter, the medical 454 00:30:31,596 --> 00:30:35,116 Speaker 1: examiner in Santa Barbara, agreed that the condition of Verna 455 00:30:35,196 --> 00:30:39,356 Speaker 1: and Doug's lungs was consistent with drowning, but he also 456 00:30:39,636 --> 00:30:43,636 Speaker 1: saw evidence of trauma. The Santa Barbara detectives were in 457 00:30:43,676 --> 00:30:47,556 Speaker 1: the room and the whole procedure was filmed. On Verna, 458 00:30:47,916 --> 00:30:51,556 Speaker 1: doctor Hunter observed head trauma, not sufficient to kill her, 459 00:30:51,836 --> 00:30:57,916 Speaker 1: but bruising, which was curious. After re examining Verna, doctor 460 00:30:57,996 --> 00:31:02,836 Speaker 1: Hunter turned to Doug and his findings were extremely disturbing. 461 00:31:04,276 --> 00:31:07,436 Speaker 1: According to doctor Hunter, there was significant bruising on the 462 00:31:07,436 --> 00:31:12,956 Speaker 1: back of Doug's head. Obviously, the scalp has been shaved 463 00:31:12,956 --> 00:31:16,956 Speaker 1: of all the hare. Now doctor Hunter can reflect the 464 00:31:16,996 --> 00:31:23,236 Speaker 1: scalp back and show underlying areas of echymosis on both 465 00:31:23,276 --> 00:31:26,436 Speaker 1: the inferior aspect of the scalp, as well as the 466 00:31:27,636 --> 00:31:30,996 Speaker 1: ox of put and the base of the skull now 467 00:31:31,036 --> 00:31:33,396 Speaker 1: being pointed out by the tip of a scalpel. Once again, 468 00:31:38,476 --> 00:31:43,636 Speaker 1: the echymosis or bruising, doctor Hunter said, was quote consistent 469 00:31:43,676 --> 00:31:49,156 Speaker 1: with trauma immediately prior to death, as if by magic. 470 00:31:49,356 --> 00:31:53,556 Speaker 1: The Santa Barbara autopsies revealed powerful physical evidence in a 471 00:31:53,596 --> 00:31:58,196 Speaker 1: case where there had been almost none. The new findings 472 00:31:58,276 --> 00:32:01,316 Speaker 1: led the detectives to believe that Fred Raylor had rendered 473 00:32:01,356 --> 00:32:05,996 Speaker 1: his victims unconscious then held them underwater. This would line 474 00:32:06,076 --> 00:32:08,756 Speaker 1: up with the stories they'd hear about Fred, that he 475 00:32:08,796 --> 00:32:12,916 Speaker 1: was tricked, harsh and quick to anger, that he resented Doug, 476 00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:16,156 Speaker 1: and that he'd been violent with Jean, his first wife. 477 00:32:17,356 --> 00:32:20,156 Speaker 1: A lot of people in Malibu had deep seated suspicions 478 00:32:20,156 --> 00:32:23,716 Speaker 1: about Jean's death, they thought Fred had killed her and 479 00:32:23,876 --> 00:32:26,996 Speaker 1: covered his tracks so cleverly that the coroner had ruled 480 00:32:27,036 --> 00:32:31,436 Speaker 1: her death an accident. Now the detectives were looking into 481 00:32:31,436 --> 00:32:35,276 Speaker 1: the so called suicide of Verna's first husband, Bill Johnson 482 00:32:35,716 --> 00:32:39,036 Speaker 1: to see if Fred could have what pushed him off 483 00:32:39,036 --> 00:32:42,196 Speaker 1: the roof of the building in Westwood. They were even 484 00:32:42,276 --> 00:32:45,236 Speaker 1: digging into an old story from Point Magoo about a 485 00:32:45,276 --> 00:32:49,236 Speaker 1: diver who drowned while using Fred's equipment. Could the diver 486 00:32:49,396 --> 00:32:55,076 Speaker 1: be a possible fifth victim? Was Fred Railer a serial killer? 487 00:32:56,556 --> 00:32:59,116 Speaker 1: But the question of motive for the deaths of Verna 488 00:32:59,156 --> 00:33:02,516 Speaker 1: and Doug that lay inside the house at sea level 489 00:33:02,636 --> 00:33:07,996 Speaker 1: drive in papers tucked away in desk drawers and secreted 490 00:33:08,076 --> 00:33:11,796 Speaker 1: in a silver case under the desk in the living room. 491 00:33:12,036 --> 00:33:15,836 Speaker 1: Papers the Day believed that showed Fred was living in 492 00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:20,996 Speaker 1: a beachfront house of cards and that he needed money 493 00:33:22,076 --> 00:33:35,436 Speaker 1: fast coming up on the next episode of Lost Hells, 494 00:33:35,996 --> 00:33:40,636 Speaker 1: there's something here that's just not adding up well. When 495 00:33:40,636 --> 00:33:43,596 Speaker 1: they were saying that, oh, you're you know I was broke, 496 00:33:43,716 --> 00:33:47,756 Speaker 1: I said, well, the thing you didn't search when you 497 00:33:47,796 --> 00:33:50,556 Speaker 1: tore up my house was you didn't go into the 498 00:33:50,636 --> 00:33:53,716 Speaker 1: deep freeze I had a faith in there with thirty 499 00:33:53,756 --> 00:33:57,876 Speaker 1: grand cash in about five thousand and travelers checks in it, 500 00:33:58,916 --> 00:34:01,196 Speaker 1: and they were sort of stunned. And then they asked 501 00:34:01,236 --> 00:34:04,756 Speaker 1: the detective easy and looked in the deep freeze, and 502 00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:09,276 Speaker 1: he said, of course he hadn't. That's next in episode seven. 503 00:34:09,956 --> 00:34:15,156 Speaker 1: Love or Money. Lost Tales is written and reported by 504 00:34:15,196 --> 00:34:18,516 Speaker 1: Me Dana Goodyear. It's created by me and Ben Adair 505 00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:24,236 Speaker 1: and produced by Western Sound and Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to 506 00:34:24,276 --> 00:34:26,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus and you can hear the whole season add 507 00:34:26,556 --> 00:34:29,156 Speaker 1: free and get early access to the final two episodes. 508 00:34:30,516 --> 00:34:32,836 Speaker 1: Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost Hills Show page in 509 00:34:32,916 --> 00:34:39,516 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot Fm.