1 00:00:15,066 --> 00:00:33,946 Speaker 1: Pushkin. After Verna and Doug drowned off Santa Cruz Island 2 00:00:34,266 --> 00:00:38,166 Speaker 1: on January 2, 1981, their bodies were flown by helicopter 3 00:00:38,296 --> 00:00:42,456 Speaker 1: back to Ventura County, where they were declared dead. The 4 00:00:42,496 --> 00:00:45,826 Speaker 1: next day, January 3rd, they were autopsied by the county's 5 00:00:46,006 --> 00:00:51,426 Speaker 1: acting medical examiner. He concluded that they drowned by accident. 6 00:00:54,646 --> 00:00:57,116 Speaker 1: But Santa Cruz Island is actually in the jurisdiction of 7 00:00:57,156 --> 00:01:00,896 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara County. So that's why when Candy Hinman wanted 8 00:01:01,076 --> 00:01:05,616 Speaker 1: someone to investigate Fred, she called the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Department. 9 00:01:06,736 --> 00:01:12,046 Speaker 1: And they took her call. Candy's tip put the accidental 10 00:01:12,066 --> 00:01:15,946 Speaker 1: drownings of Verna and Doug in a new, uncomfortable light. 11 00:01:16,986 --> 00:01:20,566 Speaker 1: What if their deaths were not an accident? Verna and 12 00:01:20,606 --> 00:01:23,446 Speaker 1: Doug were about to be cremated, so the Santa Barbara 13 00:01:23,466 --> 00:01:27,226 Speaker 1: Sheriff's Department put a hold on their cremations and brought 14 00:01:27,266 --> 00:01:31,446 Speaker 1: their bodies back to Santa Barbara to be autopsied again 15 00:01:33,306 --> 00:01:33,906 Speaker 1: in secret. 16 00:01:35,526 --> 00:01:39,426 Speaker 2: The date is January 9, 1981. The location is the 17 00:01:39,486 --> 00:01:45,966 Speaker 2: Cottage Hospital Morgue. This is the re-autopsy examination of a 18 00:01:46,166 --> 00:01:54,646 Speaker 2: white female adult identified as Verna Jo Roller, R-O-E-H-L-E-R. The 19 00:01:54,686 --> 00:02:00,866 Speaker 2: body has been previously autopsied on January 3, 1981, by Dr. 20 00:02:00,926 --> 00:02:04,476 Speaker 2: Craig Duncan of the Ventura County Medical Examiner Coroner's Office. 21 00:02:05,996 --> 00:02:07,316 Speaker 3: Commencing section of bone. 22 00:02:14,146 --> 00:02:18,346 Speaker 1: There were too many similarities to ignore. Two wives dead 23 00:02:18,366 --> 00:02:22,406 Speaker 1: in the water for no clear reason. And Fred, the 24 00:02:22,546 --> 00:02:25,766 Speaker 1: only witness in both cases, with a story that didn't 25 00:02:25,806 --> 00:02:30,006 Speaker 1: really stand up to interrogation. But this time, there was 26 00:02:30,046 --> 00:02:32,166 Speaker 1: a second victim. A child. 27 00:02:33,566 --> 00:02:38,866 Speaker 2: This will be the re-autopsy examination of a white male 28 00:02:39,306 --> 00:02:42,396 Speaker 2: child identified as Douglas Johnson Smith. 29 00:02:43,706 --> 00:02:48,346 Speaker 1: What if Fred had killed them all? Verna, Doug, and Jean. 30 00:02:49,626 --> 00:02:53,236 Speaker 1: And was about to get away with it. Again. I'm 31 00:02:56,396 --> 00:03:00,226 Speaker 1: Dana Goodyear, and this is Lost Hills. 32 00:03:00,246 --> 00:03:04,966 Speaker 3: Lost Hills. 33 00:03:26,766 --> 00:03:34,556 Speaker 1: Episode 6, Cold Pricklies. Three months after Verna and Doug died, 34 00:03:34,836 --> 00:03:36,936 Speaker 1: Fred was arrested at home in Malibu. 35 00:03:37,876 --> 00:03:38,576 Speaker 4: I was stunned. 36 00:03:39,176 --> 00:03:41,276 Speaker 1: Here's Fred's recollection of what happened that day. 37 00:03:41,296 --> 00:03:44,056 Speaker 4: I got the kids off to school, and I had 38 00:03:44,096 --> 00:03:48,836 Speaker 4: taken a shower, and the phone rang. And so I 39 00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:52,526 Speaker 4: said hello, and there was no answer. So then a 40 00:03:52,566 --> 00:03:55,786 Speaker 4: little later, the doorbell rang, so I walked downstairs and 41 00:03:56,046 --> 00:04:00,306 Speaker 4: opened the door, and there's three guys with guns aimed 42 00:04:00,486 --> 00:04:04,496 Speaker 4: at me. And they said, we're here to arrest you. 43 00:04:05,186 --> 00:04:07,806 Speaker 4: They handcuffed me and put me in the car, and 44 00:04:08,206 --> 00:04:09,966 Speaker 4: that was basically it. 45 00:04:11,246 --> 00:04:13,496 Speaker 1: They drove him to the Malibu station and read him 46 00:04:13,526 --> 00:04:17,576 Speaker 1: his rights. He was being held on two counts of homicide, 47 00:04:18,336 --> 00:04:20,056 Speaker 1: one for Verna, one for Doug. 48 00:04:20,916 --> 00:04:25,196 Speaker 4: I never thought it would get to that point. Because, 49 00:04:26,166 --> 00:04:28,966 Speaker 4: like I say, I had answered all their questions. I 50 00:04:28,986 --> 00:04:31,586 Speaker 4: had met with them three times. My family had talked 51 00:04:31,626 --> 00:04:34,646 Speaker 4: to them. The people on the boat had talked to them. 52 00:04:35,986 --> 00:04:42,286 Speaker 4: I couldn't imagine anything that had been left unsaid. We 53 00:04:42,326 --> 00:04:48,536 Speaker 4: didn't have fights. There was nothing going on. So when 54 00:04:48,576 --> 00:04:51,766 Speaker 4: I got to the substation... They put me in a 55 00:04:51,846 --> 00:04:58,126 Speaker 4: tank by myself. So then that night, Fairfield, my brother, 56 00:04:58,886 --> 00:05:03,646 Speaker 4: and sister-in-law all showed up at the place, at the substation, 57 00:05:04,466 --> 00:05:09,426 Speaker 4: and were there when I walked out. And they said, 58 00:05:09,666 --> 00:05:13,576 Speaker 4: are you okay? And I said, how are the girls? 59 00:05:13,696 --> 00:05:16,716 Speaker 4: And Ron said, don't worry about it. We're taking care 60 00:05:16,756 --> 00:05:19,886 Speaker 4: of that. So that was the last discussion I had 61 00:05:19,926 --> 00:05:24,096 Speaker 4: with them that night. Then they drove me to Santa 62 00:05:24,136 --> 00:05:24,996 Speaker 4: Barbara that night. 63 00:05:28,396 --> 00:05:32,406 Speaker 1: Fred was taken to the Santa Barbara County Jail, and 64 00:05:32,446 --> 00:05:48,086 Speaker 1: he never saw Sea Level Drive again. Throughout the spring 65 00:05:48,106 --> 00:05:53,466 Speaker 1: of 1981, the Malibu rumor mill was cranking. The search 66 00:05:53,486 --> 00:05:57,176 Speaker 1: warrant affidavit was the hottest read in town, and it 67 00:05:57,316 --> 00:06:01,996 Speaker 1: was juicy. Full of details about Jean and her affair 68 00:06:02,036 --> 00:06:06,196 Speaker 1: with Fred's sailing buddy, Dick Valthoen, about guns and hot tubs, 69 00:06:06,376 --> 00:06:13,366 Speaker 1: and especially Fred's explosive temper. Neighbors were talking, to each 70 00:06:13,426 --> 00:06:24,126 Speaker 1: other and to the police. One Malibu woman had seen 71 00:06:24,226 --> 00:06:26,646 Speaker 1: Verna at the market basket a month or two before 72 00:06:26,706 --> 00:06:29,586 Speaker 1: she died, and Verna told her she was unhappy in 73 00:06:29,626 --> 00:06:33,666 Speaker 1: her marriage. Someone else had seen Fred leaving Verna's house 74 00:06:33,706 --> 00:06:36,596 Speaker 1: through the back door at 8 a.m., just weeks after 75 00:06:36,626 --> 00:06:39,996 Speaker 1: Jean's death. The neighbor who drove the kids home from 76 00:06:40,096 --> 00:06:43,056 Speaker 1: school after Verna died said that when she dropped them off, 77 00:06:43,356 --> 00:06:45,736 Speaker 1: she saw Fred lurking when she pulled up. 78 00:06:46,416 --> 00:06:47,216 Speaker 2: Excuse me. 79 00:06:47,476 --> 00:06:48,156 Speaker 5: Excuse me. 80 00:06:50,026 --> 00:06:53,046 Speaker 1: This is Kathy Pullis, a Malibu mom whose son, a 81 00:06:53,306 --> 00:06:57,026 Speaker 1: friend of Doug's, was also coached by Fred. She's being 82 00:06:57,086 --> 00:07:00,176 Speaker 1: interviewed by a private detective hired by Fred's defense team. 83 00:07:01,136 --> 00:07:03,276 Speaker 6: Since January, this is the top of the tarot. 84 00:07:03,696 --> 00:07:06,096 Speaker 7: And immediately there was the division, you. 85 00:07:06,056 --> 00:07:07,236 Speaker 8: Know, who couldn't possibly have done that. 86 00:07:07,256 --> 00:07:08,116 Speaker 9: I've already noticed that already. 87 00:07:08,456 --> 00:07:09,316 Speaker 10: Yeah, and. 88 00:07:09,956 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 3: Yes, he probably did. 89 00:07:11,036 --> 00:07:11,846 Speaker 7: Yeah, he probably did. 90 00:07:11,906 --> 00:07:14,166 Speaker 9: And I mean, I have those feelings. Some days I 91 00:07:14,186 --> 00:07:16,426 Speaker 9: think he couldn't, couldn't possibly. And then other days I think. 92 00:07:16,946 --> 00:07:18,396 Speaker 7: But what if he did? 93 00:07:18,756 --> 00:07:22,756 Speaker 1: Everyone had an opinion, or three, about Fred Raylor. Did 94 00:07:22,776 --> 00:07:27,496 Speaker 1: he kill Verna and Doug? What about Gene? Was it greed? Opportunism? 95 00:07:28,016 --> 00:07:31,066 Speaker 1: Or was he a psychopath masquerading as a Malibu dad? 96 00:07:31,906 --> 00:07:35,526 Speaker 9: And you have to understand, Malibu is very, very much 97 00:07:35,546 --> 00:07:36,366 Speaker 9: a small town. 98 00:07:36,386 --> 00:07:38,566 Speaker 7: We honestly think it would be very sophisticated. 99 00:07:38,596 --> 00:07:40,056 Speaker 6: But the fact is, they were Nazis. 100 00:07:40,686 --> 00:07:43,106 Speaker 9: And this is the talk of the town. 101 00:07:43,166 --> 00:07:44,946 Speaker 6: You can be sure it has been. 102 00:07:45,046 --> 00:07:48,136 Speaker 1: The allegation that Fred had murdered Verna and Doug, the 103 00:07:48,176 --> 00:07:53,596 Speaker 1: investigator said, was largely based on circumstantial evidence. Fred's character 104 00:07:53,736 --> 00:07:57,616 Speaker 1: was going to be a major topic. The arrest opened 105 00:07:57,676 --> 00:08:00,606 Speaker 1: a rift in Malibu. You were either with Fred or 106 00:08:00,666 --> 00:08:05,186 Speaker 1: against him. Fred's friend, Mark Hetrick, told me the divisions 107 00:08:05,266 --> 00:08:07,866 Speaker 1: caused by the case drove him and his wife, Beth, 108 00:08:08,006 --> 00:08:08,966 Speaker 1: to leave Malibu. 109 00:08:10,316 --> 00:08:14,906 Speaker 5: All of the moms that are all, you know, of 110 00:08:14,926 --> 00:08:19,606 Speaker 5: a certain level, economic level, and involved in that, you know, 111 00:08:19,726 --> 00:08:22,126 Speaker 5: they all get together and they all talk. So there's 112 00:08:22,146 --> 00:08:25,566 Speaker 5: sort of a gossipy group. And, you know, right away 113 00:08:25,626 --> 00:08:29,246 Speaker 5: they started all of these theories about, well, you know, Gene, 114 00:08:29,306 --> 00:08:33,066 Speaker 5: his first wife, died. And, you know, that's pretty suspicious. 115 00:08:33,626 --> 00:08:35,146 Speaker 5: And I think in a whole lot of ways that's, 116 00:08:35,346 --> 00:08:36,946 Speaker 5: you know, in a whole lot of ways that's why we've, 117 00:08:37,206 --> 00:08:42,476 Speaker 5: you know, we've, we left. is because we just, that 118 00:08:42,496 --> 00:08:46,536 Speaker 5: was going to be an open wound with two sides 119 00:08:47,336 --> 00:08:51,106 Speaker 5: that forever, that's just in that town. 120 00:08:52,276 --> 00:08:55,666 Speaker 1: By the spring of 1981, the gossip was so intense 121 00:08:55,826 --> 00:08:57,926 Speaker 1: that a group of Malibu people wrote a letter to 122 00:08:57,966 --> 00:09:01,506 Speaker 1: the editor of the Malibu Times begging for fellow residents 123 00:09:01,566 --> 00:09:05,476 Speaker 1: to withhold judgment until after Fred's trial. They signed it, 124 00:09:06,086 --> 00:09:14,046 Speaker 1: Neighbors for Fairness to Fred Raylor. Carol, Jean's sister, told 125 00:09:14,106 --> 00:09:18,156 Speaker 1: detectives Fred could be, quote, a class A charmer, quote, 126 00:09:18,616 --> 00:09:23,236 Speaker 1: so unbelievably charming at times. But Carol and others said 127 00:09:23,296 --> 00:09:27,536 Speaker 1: Fred also had a nasty side. His whole affect could 128 00:09:27,616 --> 00:09:31,226 Speaker 1: change in an instant. This is a colleague of Fred's 129 00:09:31,266 --> 00:09:34,366 Speaker 1: from the naval base at Point Magoo talking to an investigator. 130 00:09:35,866 --> 00:09:39,386 Speaker 7: Can be a very likable, charming individual. 131 00:09:40,526 --> 00:09:42,406 Speaker 11: Dennis O'Gorman also worked with Fred. 132 00:09:42,426 --> 00:09:43,926 Speaker 12: He told an investigator that. 133 00:09:43,826 --> 00:10:07,926 Speaker 1: When Fred Dennis O'Gorman also worked with Fred. He told 134 00:10:07,986 --> 00:10:11,636 Speaker 1: an investigator that when Fred lost his temper, look out. 135 00:10:12,456 --> 00:10:15,276 Speaker 12: He just flew off the handle, nostrils flaring, red in 136 00:10:15,316 --> 00:10:19,356 Speaker 12: the face, calling all kinds of four-letter words. And he 137 00:10:19,656 --> 00:10:22,756 Speaker 12: started screaming and ranting and raving and yelling at us. 138 00:10:24,206 --> 00:10:27,466 Speaker 7: Like a madman. He'd gone completely off his tree. Just 139 00:10:27,766 --> 00:10:28,706 Speaker 7: completely out of control. 140 00:10:28,746 --> 00:10:30,606 Speaker 12: He was literally like a madman. 141 00:10:31,716 --> 00:10:34,636 Speaker 1: Fred, he said, was so loathed at work that one 142 00:10:34,676 --> 00:10:37,116 Speaker 1: guy had a picture of him blown up and turned 143 00:10:37,156 --> 00:10:41,416 Speaker 1: into a dartboard. But he also said that somehow it 144 00:10:41,456 --> 00:10:43,096 Speaker 1: was hard to stay mad at Fred. 145 00:10:43,116 --> 00:10:49,316 Speaker 7: Even today... I can't dislike Fred, even if I really 146 00:10:49,356 --> 00:10:52,236 Speaker 7: worked on him all day long. I convinced myself of 147 00:10:52,336 --> 00:10:54,936 Speaker 7: all the nasty things he did, stuck myself with him 148 00:10:55,016 --> 00:10:59,326 Speaker 7: to remember all the things he did to me. And 149 00:10:59,346 --> 00:11:00,826 Speaker 7: I was just ready to kill him as soon as 150 00:11:00,866 --> 00:11:03,786 Speaker 7: he walked in the door. I know that when he 151 00:11:03,806 --> 00:11:05,286 Speaker 7: walked in that door with a big smile on his 152 00:11:05,346 --> 00:11:07,206 Speaker 7: face and a couple of witty remarks that we would 153 00:11:07,246 --> 00:11:10,126 Speaker 7: sit down and have a beer together and not be friends, 154 00:11:10,226 --> 00:11:13,686 Speaker 7: but I just couldn't. It's strange. You have to meet 155 00:11:13,706 --> 00:11:16,886 Speaker 7: him to understand what I'm saying. But he's a real charm. 156 00:11:17,306 --> 00:11:19,556 Speaker 7: And in the back of my mind, I know I 157 00:11:19,596 --> 00:11:21,656 Speaker 7: would never work with him again because he hasn't changed 158 00:11:21,736 --> 00:11:25,756 Speaker 7: a bit. He has no respect for anyone. People are 159 00:11:25,776 --> 00:11:28,176 Speaker 7: just pawns. They're just tools. 160 00:11:28,656 --> 00:11:33,366 Speaker 1: So Fred was smart and calculating. And he used people 161 00:11:34,006 --> 00:11:39,436 Speaker 1: like pawns. And they didn't always even register the abuse. 162 00:11:55,056 --> 00:11:58,166 Speaker 1: Among people in Malibu, Fred Raylor was known to run 163 00:11:58,206 --> 00:12:01,666 Speaker 1: a tight ship. This is an interview Beth Hetrick gave 164 00:12:01,706 --> 00:12:05,026 Speaker 1: an investigator. She taught with Verna and is married to 165 00:12:05,086 --> 00:12:06,186 Speaker 1: Fred's friend, Mark. 166 00:12:07,046 --> 00:12:10,536 Speaker 3: You always remind me of the guy. 167 00:12:10,396 --> 00:12:15,256 Speaker 9: In The Sound of Music, Christopher Plummer, plays because it 168 00:12:15,276 --> 00:12:19,326 Speaker 9: was that strictness, but also that love. And there's a 169 00:12:19,366 --> 00:12:20,126 Speaker 9: lot of that. 170 00:12:19,966 --> 00:12:25,216 Speaker 1: With Fred, with the kids. Not everyone in Malibu got 171 00:12:25,296 --> 00:12:29,876 Speaker 1: the Captain Von Trapp thing. Sure, they noticed how incredibly 172 00:12:29,916 --> 00:12:33,776 Speaker 1: well-behaved Fred and Verna's kids were. But maybe they were 173 00:12:33,996 --> 00:12:37,386 Speaker 1: too well-behaved. It was a little creepy. 174 00:12:38,286 --> 00:12:43,806 Speaker 13: Fred came from a pretty tight, disciplined family. 175 00:12:43,846 --> 00:12:45,446 Speaker 9: I mean, he's a Midwesterner, really. 176 00:12:45,486 --> 00:12:48,326 Speaker 13: And, you know, we know what Midwesterners are like. You know, 177 00:12:48,366 --> 00:12:49,986 Speaker 13: they're a little bit uptight. 178 00:12:50,006 --> 00:12:50,706 Speaker 9: They have their own. 179 00:12:52,256 --> 00:12:56,796 Speaker 13: Somewhat blinkered vision of life. I mean, I'm not saying 180 00:12:56,846 --> 00:12:58,746 Speaker 13: this in a derogatory fashion. I'm saying this in the 181 00:12:58,786 --> 00:13:01,546 Speaker 13: fashion of the Let It All Hang Out Malibu crowd 182 00:13:01,566 --> 00:13:01,986 Speaker 13: viewed it. 183 00:13:02,986 --> 00:13:06,466 Speaker 1: This is archival tape of Ivor Davis, a British journalist 184 00:13:06,506 --> 00:13:09,686 Speaker 1: who was friends with Fred in Malibu. They coached kids' 185 00:13:09,726 --> 00:13:12,166 Speaker 1: soccer together, and he was one of the neighbors for 186 00:13:12,226 --> 00:13:15,346 Speaker 1: fairness to Fred Raylor. It seemed to him that Fred 187 00:13:15,386 --> 00:13:17,946 Speaker 1: was the victim of a cultural misunderstanding. 188 00:13:18,846 --> 00:13:22,276 Speaker 13: My evaluation, if you like, which I mean, here is 189 00:13:22,316 --> 00:13:26,836 Speaker 13: a man, Fred, who didn't quite fit in Malibu, in 190 00:13:26,956 --> 00:13:29,796 Speaker 13: a newly affluent community where you do your own thing, okay? 191 00:13:30,276 --> 00:13:33,216 Speaker 13: And he disciplined his children, and people, you know, people say, 192 00:13:33,266 --> 00:13:36,566 Speaker 13: my God, discipline your children, that's, you know, you don't 193 00:13:36,606 --> 00:13:41,326 Speaker 13: do that. He alienated some people, I think, from my observations, 194 00:13:41,826 --> 00:13:44,796 Speaker 13: who had been friendly with Verna, by kind of pushing 195 00:13:44,836 --> 00:13:48,896 Speaker 13: them out when he married her. And by edging these 196 00:13:48,936 --> 00:13:51,856 Speaker 13: people out, they took an instant dislike to him, or 197 00:13:52,816 --> 00:13:56,206 Speaker 13: they grew to dislike him. So something like this comes along, 198 00:13:57,606 --> 00:14:00,346 Speaker 13: a terrible tragedy like this, and people say, well, Fred 199 00:14:00,386 --> 00:14:05,546 Speaker 13: was kind of weird anyway, and what happened justifies our impression. 200 00:14:05,586 --> 00:14:10,096 Speaker 13: He was not the run-of-the-mill guy. And the fact that 201 00:14:10,116 --> 00:14:12,776 Speaker 13: he did discipline his kids was, believe it or not, 202 00:14:13,016 --> 00:14:15,136 Speaker 13: something of a negative factor in that community. 203 00:14:16,156 --> 00:14:18,716 Speaker 1: Fred's approach to parenting set him apart and made him 204 00:14:18,816 --> 00:14:23,876 Speaker 1: vulnerable to criticism. And it was a bit extreme. When 205 00:14:23,936 --> 00:14:27,156 Speaker 1: I visited Fred's daughters in Colorado over the summer, they 206 00:14:27,176 --> 00:14:31,896 Speaker 1: were full of stories about Fred's unusual discipline. Heidi pulled 207 00:14:31,936 --> 00:14:34,256 Speaker 1: out a brick wrapped in a piece of paper with 208 00:14:34,296 --> 00:14:36,816 Speaker 1: a little monster face drawn on it and the words, 209 00:14:37,196 --> 00:14:41,336 Speaker 1: cold prickly, in Fred's handwriting. The brick was part of 210 00:14:41,436 --> 00:14:45,216 Speaker 1: Fred's punishment system, how he kept those kids so perfectly 211 00:14:45,276 --> 00:14:48,596 Speaker 1: in line. It was the flip side of the warm fuzzies. 212 00:14:49,046 --> 00:14:52,426 Speaker 1: the rewards you got for good behavior. The sisters explained 213 00:14:52,466 --> 00:14:53,006 Speaker 1: how it worked. 214 00:14:53,886 --> 00:14:57,636 Speaker 14: So I told you, there was an actual story, like 215 00:14:57,676 --> 00:15:01,676 Speaker 14: a book, about cold pricklies and warm fuzzies and how 216 00:15:01,716 --> 00:15:03,756 Speaker 14: you feel when you, like, punch your sister and that's 217 00:15:03,816 --> 00:15:08,156 Speaker 14: a cold prickly or whatever. And so he took this brick, 218 00:15:08,206 --> 00:15:11,586 Speaker 14: like a house red brick, and covered it in brown 219 00:15:11,626 --> 00:15:15,146 Speaker 14: paper and drew a cold prickly on it. And then 220 00:15:15,166 --> 00:15:18,846 Speaker 14: the punishment was he would dole out how much time 221 00:15:18,886 --> 00:15:22,816 Speaker 14: you had to spend carrying this brick around. And I 222 00:15:22,956 --> 00:15:26,036 Speaker 14: only have a memory of having it one time, and 223 00:15:26,096 --> 00:15:29,916 Speaker 14: Heidi had to take it to, like, soccer practice. That 224 00:15:29,956 --> 00:15:31,656 Speaker 14: was the punishment, is you had to carry it, and 225 00:15:31,696 --> 00:15:32,696 Speaker 14: you couldn't set it down. 226 00:15:32,736 --> 00:15:37,056 Speaker 3: It was just that it was a concrete reminder of what. 227 00:15:38,566 --> 00:15:38,966 Speaker 10: You did. 228 00:15:38,986 --> 00:15:42,326 Speaker 14: I remember going to the bathroom with it on my lap, like, 229 00:15:42,446 --> 00:15:44,906 Speaker 14: I can't put it down. I'm going to get in 230 00:15:44,926 --> 00:15:46,006 Speaker 14: trouble if I put it down. 231 00:15:46,026 --> 00:15:47,026 Speaker 9: Okay. 232 00:15:47,476 --> 00:15:49,256 Speaker 1: The other thing the kids had to do when they 233 00:15:49,276 --> 00:15:53,466 Speaker 1: were bad was run. So those idyllic runs on the beach, 234 00:15:54,166 --> 00:15:56,526 Speaker 1: some of those were done under duress. 235 00:15:57,486 --> 00:16:01,006 Speaker 14: Like, inside our kitchen cupboard, there was our names, and 236 00:16:01,026 --> 00:16:03,586 Speaker 14: then there would be tick marks. And for every tick mark, 237 00:16:03,946 --> 00:16:06,966 Speaker 14: you had to run. And we ran as a family, 238 00:16:07,506 --> 00:16:10,216 Speaker 14: but then if you had tick marks, you had to, like, 239 00:16:10,356 --> 00:16:11,456 Speaker 14: run off your tick marks. 240 00:16:12,476 --> 00:16:16,016 Speaker 1: They'd run up and down Lechuza Beach, rain or shine. 241 00:16:16,796 --> 00:16:21,276 Speaker 14: There is a story of me being out there by myself, running, crying, 242 00:16:21,376 --> 00:16:23,386 Speaker 14: and the neighbor called Dad and was like, Fred, do 243 00:16:23,396 --> 00:16:26,546 Speaker 14: you know Kirsten's out on the beach? And she's like, yeah, 244 00:16:26,686 --> 00:16:29,826 Speaker 14: she's working off her punishment. But he could see me 245 00:16:29,886 --> 00:16:32,286 Speaker 14: from the porch or whatever. And also that was back 246 00:16:32,326 --> 00:16:35,766 Speaker 14: in the 70s when parents weren't helicopter parents. 247 00:16:36,476 --> 00:16:40,596 Speaker 1: Kim, the sisters agreed, was Miss Perfect. Here's Kirsten. 248 00:16:41,096 --> 00:16:42,976 Speaker 14: Kim never had the brick. 249 00:16:43,636 --> 00:16:46,236 Speaker 1: Kirsten was the baby, so not in trouble as often. 250 00:16:47,196 --> 00:16:49,136 Speaker 1: Heidi and Doug, they were the middle kids. 251 00:16:49,276 --> 00:16:51,516 Speaker 14: And then Heidi and Doug had the brick a lot. 252 00:16:52,356 --> 00:16:57,256 Speaker 1: And let's just say the two of them became excellent runners. Doug, especially, 253 00:16:57,416 --> 00:17:02,086 Speaker 1: was spirited. All boy, Fred once said. Full of energy. Go, go, go. 254 00:17:02,986 --> 00:17:04,726 Speaker 1: Tell about Doug's mischief a little bit. 255 00:17:05,506 --> 00:17:07,646 Speaker 3: I mean, I can't, I do remember one time it 256 00:17:07,666 --> 00:17:11,506 Speaker 3: was funny. He was like, decided to run away. And 257 00:17:11,546 --> 00:17:14,786 Speaker 3: he's like, okay, you know, my dad said, okay, and 258 00:17:15,636 --> 00:17:18,396 Speaker 3: He packed some stuff. I don't even think he made 259 00:17:18,456 --> 00:17:21,876 Speaker 3: it very far, but they just let us. They're like, 260 00:17:21,996 --> 00:17:26,836 Speaker 3: all right, see ya. Because, of course, he didn't run away, 261 00:17:26,966 --> 00:17:32,226 Speaker 3: like walking the beaches of Malibu. Poor me. And he did, 262 00:17:32,346 --> 00:17:34,106 Speaker 3: I think, just went down to our friend's house and 263 00:17:34,126 --> 00:17:40,406 Speaker 3: then came back. But I don't know. It wasn't... You know, 264 00:17:40,466 --> 00:17:43,106 Speaker 3: we were just arguing. It was just kids' stuff. Like, 265 00:17:43,326 --> 00:17:46,266 Speaker 3: there was no brawls or anything major. It was just 266 00:17:47,286 --> 00:17:48,166 Speaker 3: silly stuff. 267 00:17:48,186 --> 00:17:50,046 Speaker 14: I think it was also sass. Like, I think there 268 00:17:50,086 --> 00:17:53,426 Speaker 14: was a lot of sass. And there was a little 269 00:17:53,466 --> 00:17:57,906 Speaker 14: bit of, I mean, Dad's told stories about how I 270 00:17:57,946 --> 00:18:01,766 Speaker 14: would even be sassy or bratty to Verna. And Doug 271 00:18:02,306 --> 00:18:06,086 Speaker 14: would give Dad attitude. And they would have this, like, well, 272 00:18:06,146 --> 00:18:10,226 Speaker 14: you're little... You know, Angel did this, and well, your 273 00:18:10,286 --> 00:18:13,246 Speaker 14: little angel did this. So there was a bit of 274 00:18:14,746 --> 00:18:16,146 Speaker 14: sass going around. 275 00:18:17,166 --> 00:18:20,786 Speaker 1: That was a specific dynamic. Kirsten sassing Verna and Doug 276 00:18:20,826 --> 00:18:24,886 Speaker 1: sassing Fred. And it came out of another dynamic. That 277 00:18:24,926 --> 00:18:35,526 Speaker 1: Kirsten was Fred's favorite, and Doug was Verna's. Dottie Menville, 278 00:18:35,786 --> 00:18:38,706 Speaker 1: one of the family's neighbors in Malibu, said that Kirsten's 279 00:18:38,826 --> 00:18:42,386 Speaker 1: privileged position with Fred and Doug's with Verna was a 280 00:18:42,456 --> 00:18:45,956 Speaker 1: thing in the marriage. She talked about it with an investigator. 281 00:18:48,236 --> 00:18:56,316 Speaker 9: Yeah, they had some too initial thing. Prime kid or 282 00:18:56,396 --> 00:18:58,496 Speaker 9: PK or something like that. She may have shared that 283 00:18:58,516 --> 00:19:02,216 Speaker 9: with somebody else. It was some initial. And everyone's like, 284 00:19:02,236 --> 00:19:04,016 Speaker 9: I guess, even when kids are around, they might go, 285 00:19:04,486 --> 00:19:06,746 Speaker 9: PK or something like that, if they felt the other 286 00:19:06,806 --> 00:19:13,356 Speaker 9: one was showing favoritism to their own favorite child. 287 00:19:14,516 --> 00:19:17,736 Speaker 1: Fred even complained about Verna's relationship with Doug when he 288 00:19:17,776 --> 00:19:21,706 Speaker 1: was at work. This is Dennis O'Gorman in an archival interview. 289 00:19:22,586 --> 00:19:24,466 Speaker 11: From time to time, he'd make mention, like, say, of 290 00:19:24,486 --> 00:19:26,706 Speaker 11: the boy, you know, but if the boy didn't want 291 00:19:26,726 --> 00:19:28,886 Speaker 11: to eat that or whatever, then she'd make a special 292 00:19:28,926 --> 00:19:30,826 Speaker 11: meal for him, or he always got some sort of 293 00:19:30,846 --> 00:19:34,206 Speaker 11: special treatment. Or sometimes he would get on the boy's 294 00:19:34,286 --> 00:19:36,506 Speaker 11: case because the boy was spoiled so damn a lot. 295 00:19:37,186 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 11: And if she stood up for any of the kids, 296 00:19:39,216 --> 00:19:40,776 Speaker 11: she would stand up for the boy before she would 297 00:19:40,796 --> 00:19:41,676 Speaker 11: stand up for the rest of them. 298 00:19:43,896 --> 00:19:46,896 Speaker 1: All these stories. They were starting to paint a picture 299 00:19:46,936 --> 00:19:51,466 Speaker 1: of Fred. One that would be presented to the jury. Carol, 300 00:19:51,596 --> 00:19:55,166 Speaker 1: Jean's sister, even got in on this. She felt moved 301 00:19:55,306 --> 00:19:57,406 Speaker 1: to write a letter to the Santa Barbara detectives. 302 00:19:58,886 --> 00:19:59,066 Speaker 7: In it. 303 00:19:59,296 --> 00:20:04,476 Speaker 1: she said that Fred often humiliated Doug. Once, Doug disobeyed 304 00:20:04,516 --> 00:20:06,996 Speaker 1: him by jumping out of their inflatable before it was 305 00:20:07,016 --> 00:20:10,346 Speaker 1: all the way to shore. When Fred got hold of Doug, 306 00:20:10,866 --> 00:20:16,946 Speaker 1: he kicked him. Doug, Jean's sister, wrote to the detectives, was, quote, 307 00:20:18,006 --> 00:20:42,136 Speaker 1: a tortured little boy. This fall, I met up with 308 00:20:42,176 --> 00:20:46,116 Speaker 1: a childhood friend of Doug's in Malibu. We met at 309 00:20:46,136 --> 00:20:49,096 Speaker 1: the parking lot of the Trankas Market an upscale mini 310 00:20:49,126 --> 00:20:50,126 Speaker 1: mall on PCH. 311 00:20:50,146 --> 00:20:52,866 Speaker 6: Okay, my name's John Lytel. 312 00:20:53,586 --> 00:20:58,286 Speaker 8: I grew up with Dougie Johnson and all the families 313 00:20:58,366 --> 00:21:04,236 Speaker 8: out here in Malibu until about the end of 1980, 1981. 314 00:21:04,236 --> 00:21:07,356 Speaker 1: John is Patty's son, so he literally grew up with Doug, 315 00:21:07,736 --> 00:21:11,316 Speaker 1: sharing Verna's duplex on Broad Beach Road. He's a surfer 316 00:21:11,596 --> 00:21:15,136 Speaker 1: and a sailor and now an L.A. County Sheriff's deputy. 317 00:21:15,156 --> 00:21:15,376 Speaker 7: Sheriff. 318 00:21:15,876 --> 00:21:20,356 Speaker 8: I've been a sheriff for over 21 years, since June, 319 00:21:20,356 --> 00:21:22,276 Speaker 8: 21 years, and with the county of L.A. 320 00:21:22,316 --> 00:21:23,096 Speaker 6: For 22 years. 321 00:21:24,326 --> 00:21:27,406 Speaker 1: But in 1981, he was 8 years old and Doug's 322 00:21:27,446 --> 00:21:30,326 Speaker 1: best friend. I'd asked him to take me around his 323 00:21:30,366 --> 00:21:33,726 Speaker 1: old neighborhood. He got into my car, which is a Volvo, 324 00:21:34,326 --> 00:21:35,386 Speaker 1: total mom car. 325 00:21:36,946 --> 00:21:39,086 Speaker 6: This is like one of the best cars ever to 326 00:21:39,106 --> 00:21:39,606 Speaker 6: smuggle in. 327 00:21:40,546 --> 00:21:44,346 Speaker 8: Smuggle drugs. Because this floor right here. So there's my 328 00:21:44,386 --> 00:21:47,526 Speaker 8: finger there, and my other hand is about a foot 329 00:21:47,666 --> 00:21:50,486 Speaker 8: below it. It's like all foam in there, and. 330 00:21:50,456 --> 00:21:52,586 Speaker 6: I'd scrape it out and load it with happy stuff. 331 00:21:54,216 --> 00:21:56,936 Speaker 1: We pulled onto PCH and stopped at the intersection with 332 00:21:56,996 --> 00:22:01,296 Speaker 1: Broad Beach Road. So is this like your turn into 333 00:22:01,316 --> 00:22:02,516 Speaker 1: your childhood neighborhood? 334 00:22:02,536 --> 00:22:03,976 Speaker 6: Yeah, Broad Beach, and then there's one at the north 335 00:22:04,056 --> 00:22:04,396 Speaker 6: end too. 336 00:22:04,776 --> 00:22:07,616 Speaker 8: The Starbucks was in here, that's for sure. And Trinket's 337 00:22:07,656 --> 00:22:10,496 Speaker 8: didn't look that nice, the market. It's kind of a 338 00:22:10,496 --> 00:22:13,726 Speaker 8: junky old store. There was no surf shop. There was 339 00:22:13,746 --> 00:22:16,576 Speaker 8: none of these boutique shops or any of that stuff. 340 00:22:17,036 --> 00:22:18,956 Speaker 1: We found a parking spot on the side of Broad 341 00:22:18,996 --> 00:22:22,436 Speaker 1: Beach Road, just past where a private security guard was 342 00:22:22,476 --> 00:22:25,966 Speaker 1: posted up. Down the road on the left was Verna's 343 00:22:26,006 --> 00:22:30,686 Speaker 1: old house, where John had lived as a kid. Through 344 00:22:30,726 --> 00:22:32,446 Speaker 1: the slots of the fence, you could see a big 345 00:22:32,506 --> 00:22:35,996 Speaker 1: grassy yard edged with flowers and trees and the ocean 346 00:22:36,156 --> 00:22:42,336 Speaker 1: sparkling in the near distance. Sea Level Drive plunges off 347 00:22:42,376 --> 00:22:45,736 Speaker 1: Broad Beach Road toward the ocean. It's blocked from car 348 00:22:45,756 --> 00:22:48,796 Speaker 1: traffic by an electric fence, but there's a pedestrian gate. 349 00:22:50,656 --> 00:22:51,876 Speaker 6: I think, see that tree right there? 350 00:22:52,096 --> 00:22:52,256 Speaker 14: Yeah. 351 00:22:52,516 --> 00:22:53,236 Speaker 6: It's just the top of it. 352 00:22:53,236 --> 00:22:55,416 Speaker 8: That's the one we climbed all the time, and my 353 00:22:55,436 --> 00:22:56,896 Speaker 8: dad had to come get us out of the tree. 354 00:22:58,316 --> 00:23:01,526 Speaker 8: That story gets told so many times at any of 355 00:23:01,586 --> 00:23:04,846 Speaker 8: our family gatherings, because whenever we talk about Dougie, my 356 00:23:04,926 --> 00:23:07,186 Speaker 8: sister always brings it up how my dad had, we 357 00:23:07,226 --> 00:23:09,006 Speaker 8: had like a stuck up in the tree, and Dougie 358 00:23:09,046 --> 00:23:12,756 Speaker 8: was like a, telling us to, or help, or we 359 00:23:12,776 --> 00:23:14,376 Speaker 8: were saying help because we could climb up, but we 360 00:23:14,396 --> 00:23:15,126 Speaker 8: couldn't climb down it. 361 00:23:16,626 --> 00:23:19,526 Speaker 1: We followed sea level down as it turned parallel to 362 00:23:19,566 --> 00:23:23,326 Speaker 1: the shore. The waves crashed against the wild beach where 363 00:23:23,386 --> 00:23:29,246 Speaker 1: Fred and Verna's children used to do their runs. We're 364 00:23:29,266 --> 00:23:34,906 Speaker 1: looking for 31685. John was having a moment. It was 365 00:23:35,106 --> 00:23:36,526 Speaker 1: almost like he was dreaming. 366 00:23:37,726 --> 00:23:41,076 Speaker 8: Like, I don't remember the houses being this big And 367 00:23:41,116 --> 00:23:43,456 Speaker 8: that's funny because you think as a little kid everything. 368 00:23:43,256 --> 00:23:48,646 Speaker 6: Would be bigger now, but now everything just looks gigantic 369 00:23:48,666 --> 00:23:51,766 Speaker 6: to me. It's just weird. 370 00:23:54,706 --> 00:23:56,666 Speaker 8: I haven't been down here since, though. I haven't been 371 00:23:56,686 --> 00:23:59,356 Speaker 8: down to this street, even on duty or anything like that. 372 00:24:02,136 --> 00:24:04,996 Speaker 1: We stopped in front of a large contemporary house with 373 00:24:05,036 --> 00:24:08,416 Speaker 1: an agave garden and board-formed concrete retaining walls. 374 00:24:10,796 --> 00:24:13,256 Speaker 8: So I remember this yard, though. This yard was here, 375 00:24:13,396 --> 00:24:17,576 Speaker 8: and there was like a kid play structure. 376 00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:22,906 Speaker 1: John said Doug's death traumatized him and altered the course 377 00:24:22,926 --> 00:24:26,166 Speaker 1: of his life. When his dad told him the news, 378 00:24:26,466 --> 00:24:28,106 Speaker 1: he didn't understand at first. 379 00:24:29,766 --> 00:24:33,006 Speaker 6: I don't think I talked for three days. It was weird. 380 00:24:33,026 --> 00:24:34,566 Speaker 8: I don't think I ate for a bunch of days. 381 00:24:34,586 --> 00:24:37,406 Speaker 8: It was just weird because it was like having part 382 00:24:37,426 --> 00:24:39,976 Speaker 8: of your soul ripped out. They lived here, and then 383 00:24:40,016 --> 00:24:41,956 Speaker 8: they lived in that house with us at that L unit, 384 00:24:41,976 --> 00:24:43,236 Speaker 8: so it was almost like he was a little brother, 385 00:24:43,316 --> 00:24:44,916 Speaker 8: or like a brother, not even a little brother. 386 00:24:44,936 --> 00:24:48,756 Speaker 1: How often do you feel like you think about him 387 00:24:48,816 --> 00:24:49,776 Speaker 1: or talk about him now? 388 00:24:50,816 --> 00:24:52,886 Speaker 8: I've had a couple days where, like, if I hear 389 00:24:52,926 --> 00:24:55,646 Speaker 8: a song, I'll end up crying. Maybe like a John 390 00:24:55,686 --> 00:24:58,526 Speaker 8: Denver song, maybe Country Road or something like that. It's 391 00:24:58,566 --> 00:24:59,986 Speaker 8: just something that hits your heartstrings. 392 00:25:00,766 --> 00:25:03,446 Speaker 1: When he was a child, John said, Fred had made 393 00:25:03,486 --> 00:25:04,656 Speaker 1: him uncomfortable. 394 00:25:05,526 --> 00:25:06,766 Speaker 8: I was a little bit afraid of my dad, but 395 00:25:06,806 --> 00:25:08,286 Speaker 8: when I went over to other people's houses, I didn't 396 00:25:08,306 --> 00:25:09,766 Speaker 8: think I'd have to be afraid of their dads, but 397 00:25:09,846 --> 00:25:13,676 Speaker 8: I was. You try to forget the stuff that makes 398 00:25:13,696 --> 00:25:16,596 Speaker 8: you the most scared when you're a kid. So I don't, like, 399 00:25:16,636 --> 00:25:19,256 Speaker 8: I remember his face 100%. That'll never go out of 400 00:25:19,296 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 8: my brain. 401 00:25:21,736 --> 00:25:24,796 Speaker 1: The feeling in the Raylor home, he said, was oppressive. 402 00:25:25,576 --> 00:25:27,316 Speaker 1: No levity, no laughter. 403 00:25:28,896 --> 00:25:31,336 Speaker 8: I believe there are evil characters at play, and I 404 00:25:31,356 --> 00:25:33,556 Speaker 8: believe they're good people, and I've known that since I 405 00:25:33,556 --> 00:25:35,586 Speaker 8: was a little kid. So when you walk into a 406 00:25:35,606 --> 00:25:37,706 Speaker 8: place and you feel evil, you just know it's there. 407 00:25:38,526 --> 00:25:39,986 Speaker 6: It's not like you're seeing ghosts or. 408 00:25:39,966 --> 00:25:43,536 Speaker 8: Anything like that. You just feel, like you can feel energy. 409 00:25:43,556 --> 00:25:46,456 Speaker 8: And I'm not trying to be like new agey or metaphysical. 410 00:25:46,796 --> 00:25:47,466 Speaker 8: You can just feel it. 411 00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:51,336 Speaker 1: I was going to ask if Fred was your introduction 412 00:25:51,396 --> 00:25:52,576 Speaker 1: to evil. Is that what you're saying? 413 00:25:54,096 --> 00:25:55,626 Speaker 6: I don't understand his thinking at the time. 414 00:25:55,646 --> 00:25:57,746 Speaker 8: And when I look back at it now, I'm like, yeah, 415 00:25:57,946 --> 00:25:59,946 Speaker 8: that's pretty evil. 416 00:26:00,086 --> 00:26:03,326 Speaker 1: Doug's death, he said, had shaped him. right down to 417 00:26:03,346 --> 00:26:04,916 Speaker 1: the decision to become a cop. 418 00:26:05,836 --> 00:26:07,916 Speaker 8: So I think we had, Dougie and I, had both 419 00:26:08,696 --> 00:26:10,836 Speaker 8: wanted to be on that path of being the good guy, 420 00:26:11,196 --> 00:26:14,056 Speaker 8: not being an opportunist, of being the hero, I guess. 421 00:26:14,836 --> 00:26:20,076 Speaker 8: So when that happened, I don't know, it just, it 422 00:26:20,156 --> 00:26:23,166 Speaker 8: follows you your whole life. Psychologically for me, it was 423 00:26:23,186 --> 00:26:25,726 Speaker 8: like a challenge. And I think based back on what 424 00:26:25,766 --> 00:26:29,646 Speaker 8: happened here and wanting to make sure the good guys 425 00:26:29,906 --> 00:26:34,146 Speaker 8: protect the little ones or protect the innocents, I don't know. 426 00:26:34,526 --> 00:26:37,206 Speaker 8: Maybe Dougie had an effect on that. Because like I said, 427 00:26:37,246 --> 00:26:40,046 Speaker 8: if Dougie's dead, I've got to be the other half 428 00:26:40,086 --> 00:26:40,266 Speaker 8: of him. 429 00:26:41,166 --> 00:26:41,566 Speaker 12: Honestly. 430 00:26:42,866 --> 00:26:43,386 Speaker 8: I've got to live. 431 00:26:47,786 --> 00:26:50,766 Speaker 1: John stepped away for a second to collect himself. 432 00:26:52,586 --> 00:26:55,276 Speaker 8: His life's over. I've got to live two lives. 433 00:26:57,736 --> 00:27:00,576 Speaker 6: So it's hard. It's like I have to just bring 434 00:27:00,616 --> 00:27:03,116 Speaker 6: him with me everywhere. He's right here and he's always here. 435 00:27:03,446 --> 00:27:05,366 Speaker 6: He's always here. 436 00:27:05,446 --> 00:27:07,266 Speaker 8: Every decision I make and stuff like that. I know he's, 437 00:27:07,366 --> 00:27:08,906 Speaker 8: I mean, it might not be like something that I 438 00:27:08,946 --> 00:27:11,306 Speaker 8: put in my head and I'm like, okay, what do 439 00:27:11,346 --> 00:27:11,936 Speaker 8: you think, Dougie? 440 00:27:11,956 --> 00:27:13,996 Speaker 6: It's not like an imaginary friend. It's just, he's there. 441 00:27:23,596 --> 00:27:25,966 Speaker 1: He doesn't know the details of what happened to Doug. 442 00:27:26,486 --> 00:27:30,106 Speaker 1: They still elude him. What he believes is a jumble 443 00:27:30,606 --> 00:27:32,826 Speaker 1: of what he overheard the grownups whispering about when he 444 00:27:32,846 --> 00:27:36,356 Speaker 1: was eight and things he's read online. And that's a 445 00:27:36,396 --> 00:27:37,996 Speaker 1: big part of why I wanted to talk to him. 446 00:27:38,776 --> 00:27:41,306 Speaker 1: Because he has an emotional investment in the case and 447 00:27:41,346 --> 00:27:45,126 Speaker 1: knows the players. And he has a detective's ability to 448 00:27:45,166 --> 00:27:49,266 Speaker 1: help make sense of all the contradictions. First, I had 449 00:27:49,286 --> 00:27:50,766 Speaker 1: to get him up to speed on what the first 450 00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:54,156 Speaker 1: autopsy showed. He didn't even know about them. And when 451 00:27:54,196 --> 00:27:58,256 Speaker 1: I told him about the accidental drowning determination, it really 452 00:27:58,336 --> 00:27:58,756 Speaker 1: threw him. 453 00:28:00,016 --> 00:28:01,456 Speaker 8: I know you're about to mess with me, but from 454 00:28:01,496 --> 00:28:05,176 Speaker 8: a law enforcement perspective, I would love to know more 455 00:28:05,416 --> 00:28:08,656 Speaker 8: because there had to be something more for them to 456 00:28:08,716 --> 00:28:09,576 Speaker 8: come to that conclusion. 457 00:28:10,986 --> 00:28:12,806 Speaker 1: It was noisy on the street, so we went back 458 00:28:12,846 --> 00:28:14,666 Speaker 1: to the car and sat there for a minute. I 459 00:28:15,686 --> 00:28:17,526 Speaker 1: could feel him bracing himself. 460 00:28:19,446 --> 00:28:20,106 Speaker 6: So how did they die? 461 00:28:21,886 --> 00:28:22,236 Speaker 7: Drowning. 462 00:28:23,196 --> 00:28:23,996 Speaker 6: Just straight drowning? 463 00:28:24,016 --> 00:28:27,756 Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. 464 00:28:27,816 --> 00:28:30,526 Speaker 6: They're not going to just drown. That's what I mean. 465 00:28:30,566 --> 00:28:32,676 Speaker 6: They're not going to just like, oh, we're done swimming. 466 00:28:32,716 --> 00:28:33,416 Speaker 6: We're going to just die. 467 00:28:33,956 --> 00:28:36,296 Speaker 8: That just doesn't... Both of them could swim. So unless 468 00:28:36,316 --> 00:28:39,976 Speaker 8: they were knocked unconscious, unless they were. 469 00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:42,856 Speaker 6: You know what I think? Yeah. 470 00:28:42,876 --> 00:28:43,016 Speaker 3: Okay. 471 00:28:43,796 --> 00:28:47,216 Speaker 8: The story to me is total BS. First of all, 472 00:28:47,236 --> 00:28:50,256 Speaker 8: if there's a rip or whatever it is, a rip 473 00:28:50,276 --> 00:28:52,736 Speaker 8: or undertow, whatever could pull them, nothing's pulling them down. 474 00:28:53,446 --> 00:28:55,966 Speaker 8: If anything, it's shooting them away from wherever they are. 475 00:28:56,346 --> 00:28:58,046 Speaker 8: Like there's an eddy or something like that where they're 476 00:28:58,086 --> 00:29:01,916 Speaker 8: not actually... stuck in that area. So for them to 477 00:29:01,956 --> 00:29:04,756 Speaker 8: stay afloat, it's not hard, unless they're knocked out. But 478 00:29:04,816 --> 00:29:06,116 Speaker 8: if they were knocked out, there's trauma. 479 00:29:08,216 --> 00:29:10,476 Speaker 1: John pulled out his phone and zoomed in on a 480 00:29:10,516 --> 00:29:11,916 Speaker 1: map of Santa Cruz Island. 481 00:29:13,336 --> 00:29:14,876 Speaker 6: Even to think about it makes me kind of sick. 482 00:29:14,896 --> 00:29:17,596 Speaker 6: It makes me ill. But I know what people do, 483 00:29:17,686 --> 00:29:19,726 Speaker 6: and I know what people go to to get stuff done. 484 00:29:21,026 --> 00:29:24,766 Speaker 6: Nobody saw him kill him. Nobody saw the boat flip over, right? 485 00:29:26,706 --> 00:29:29,596 Speaker 8: So it's like, For the innocent side of it and 486 00:29:29,616 --> 00:29:31,656 Speaker 8: the guilty side of it, nothing's seen. 487 00:29:32,636 --> 00:29:34,356 Speaker 6: How did that happen? How is that possible for it 488 00:29:34,376 --> 00:29:37,196 Speaker 6: to happen? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, we'd have to 489 00:29:37,216 --> 00:29:38,236 Speaker 6: go out there and take a look at it. 490 00:29:38,236 --> 00:29:39,716 Speaker 1: Well, look, we don't have to wait for you to 491 00:29:39,756 --> 00:29:42,526 Speaker 1: be able to captain the boat. Doug has no grave site. 492 00:29:43,186 --> 00:29:45,466 Speaker 1: And John had never seen where his best friend died. 493 00:29:46,866 --> 00:29:50,376 Speaker 1: Right there, sitting in the car with me. he decided 494 00:29:50,416 --> 00:29:54,916 Speaker 1: that he needed to go to Bird Rock. There was 495 00:29:55,056 --> 00:30:06,226 Speaker 1: just too much that didn't make sense. John Lytel is 496 00:30:06,266 --> 00:30:09,996 Speaker 1: confused today, just like everyone in Malibu was confused back then. 497 00:30:10,816 --> 00:30:14,956 Speaker 1: Because the evidence was confusing, contradictory, and thin. 498 00:30:15,836 --> 00:30:16,116 Speaker 7: Dr. 499 00:30:16,216 --> 00:30:19,636 Speaker 1: Craig Duncan, who did the first autopsies, had observed no 500 00:30:19,716 --> 00:30:24,786 Speaker 1: signs of trauma. The second, secret autopsies? They told a 501 00:30:25,046 --> 00:30:26,386 Speaker 1: drastically different story. 502 00:30:29,766 --> 00:30:30,086 Speaker 10: Dr. 503 00:30:30,126 --> 00:30:33,946 Speaker 1: DeWitt Hunter, the medical examiner in Santa Barbara... agreed that 504 00:30:33,986 --> 00:30:37,846 Speaker 1: the condition of Verna and Doug's lungs was consistent with drowning. 505 00:30:38,646 --> 00:30:42,846 Speaker 1: But he also saw evidence of trauma. The Santa Barbara 506 00:30:42,866 --> 00:30:45,906 Speaker 1: detectives were in the room, and the whole procedure was filmed. 507 00:30:47,066 --> 00:30:50,986 Speaker 1: On Verna, Dr. Hunter observed head trauma, not sufficient to 508 00:30:51,026 --> 00:30:57,966 Speaker 1: kill her, but bruising, which was curious. After reexamining Verna, Dr. 509 00:30:58,026 --> 00:31:02,786 Speaker 1: Hunter turned to Doug, and his findings were extremely disturbing. 510 00:31:04,426 --> 00:31:07,436 Speaker 1: According to Dr. Hunter, there was significant bruising on the 511 00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:08,436 Speaker 1: back of Doug's head. 512 00:31:10,996 --> 00:31:13,636 Speaker 2: Obviously, the scalp has been shaved of all the hair. 513 00:31:14,776 --> 00:31:18,516 Speaker 2: Now Dr. Hunter can reflect the scalp back and show 514 00:31:18,776 --> 00:31:24,686 Speaker 2: underlying areas of ecchymosis on both the inferior aspect of 515 00:31:24,726 --> 00:31:29,486 Speaker 2: the scalp as well as the occiput and the base 516 00:31:29,526 --> 00:31:32,286 Speaker 2: of the skull, now being pointed out by the tip 517 00:31:32,306 --> 00:31:33,366 Speaker 2: of a scalpel once again. 518 00:31:38,516 --> 00:31:43,636 Speaker 1: The ecchymosis, or bruising, Dr. Hunter said, was, quote, consistent 519 00:31:43,676 --> 00:31:49,196 Speaker 1: with trauma immediately prior to death, unquote. As if by magic, 520 00:31:49,436 --> 00:31:53,576 Speaker 1: the Santa Barbara autopsies revealed powerful physical evidence in a 521 00:31:53,616 --> 00:31:58,196 Speaker 1: case where there had been almost none. The new findings 522 00:31:58,296 --> 00:32:01,296 Speaker 1: led the detectives to believe that Fred Raylor had rendered 523 00:32:01,336 --> 00:32:06,006 Speaker 1: his victims unconscious, then held them underwater. This would line 524 00:32:06,086 --> 00:32:08,776 Speaker 1: up with the stories they'd hear about Fred, that he 525 00:32:08,816 --> 00:32:12,916 Speaker 1: was strict, harsh, and quick to anger, that he resented Doug, 526 00:32:13,496 --> 00:32:16,076 Speaker 1: and that he'd been violent with Jean, his first wife. 527 00:32:17,436 --> 00:32:20,416 Speaker 1: A lot of people in Malibu had deep-seated suspicions about 528 00:32:20,476 --> 00:32:24,206 Speaker 1: Jean's death. They thought Fred had killed her and covered 529 00:32:24,246 --> 00:32:27,126 Speaker 1: his tracks so cleverly that the coroner had ruled her 530 00:32:27,146 --> 00:32:31,566 Speaker 1: death an accident. Now the detectives were looking into the 531 00:32:31,626 --> 00:32:36,116 Speaker 1: so-called suicide of Verna's first husband, Bill Johnson, to see 532 00:32:36,176 --> 00:32:37,076 Speaker 1: if Fred could have. 533 00:32:37,796 --> 00:32:38,016 Speaker 6: what? 534 00:32:38,466 --> 00:32:40,586 Speaker 1: Pushed him off the roof of the building in Westwood? 535 00:32:41,676 --> 00:32:44,036 Speaker 1: They were even digging into an old story from Point 536 00:32:44,056 --> 00:32:47,676 Speaker 1: Magoo about a diver who drowned while using Fred's equipment. 537 00:32:48,596 --> 00:32:53,296 Speaker 1: Could the diver be a possible fifth victim? Was Fred 538 00:32:53,376 --> 00:32:58,136 Speaker 1: Raylor a serial killer? But the question of motive for 539 00:32:58,176 --> 00:33:01,516 Speaker 1: the deaths of Verna and Doug, that lay inside the 540 00:33:01,556 --> 00:33:06,416 Speaker 1: house at C-Level Drive. In papers tucked away in desk drawers, 541 00:33:07,286 --> 00:33:10,136 Speaker 1: and secreted in a silver case under the desk in 542 00:33:10,156 --> 00:33:15,276 Speaker 1: the living room. Papers the DA believed that showed Fred 543 00:33:15,316 --> 00:33:19,016 Speaker 1: was living in a beachfront house of cards and that 544 00:33:19,036 --> 00:33:34,386 Speaker 1: he needed money fast. Coming up on the next episode 545 00:33:34,426 --> 00:33:38,746 Speaker 1: of Lost Hills... there's something here that's just not adding up. 546 00:33:39,696 --> 00:33:42,876 Speaker 10: Well, when they were saying that, oh, you're, you know, 547 00:33:42,956 --> 00:33:46,236 Speaker 10: I was broke, I said, well, the thing you didn't 548 00:33:46,256 --> 00:33:50,026 Speaker 10: search when you tore up my house was you didn't 549 00:33:50,066 --> 00:33:52,386 Speaker 10: go into the deep freeze. I had a safe in 550 00:33:52,426 --> 00:33:56,906 Speaker 10: there with 30 grand cash and about 5,000 in. 551 00:33:56,226 --> 00:34:00,396 Speaker 4: Traveler's checks in it. And they were sort of stunned, 552 00:34:00,496 --> 00:34:03,336 Speaker 4: and then they asked the detective if he had looked 553 00:34:03,666 --> 00:34:07,086 Speaker 4: in the deep freeze, and he said, of course, he hadn't. 554 00:34:07,306 --> 00:34:13,786 Speaker 1: That's next in Episode 7, Love or Money. Lost Hills 555 00:34:13,886 --> 00:34:17,226 Speaker 1: is written and reported by me, Dana Goodyear. It's created 556 00:34:17,276 --> 00:34:20,236 Speaker 1: by me and Ben Adair and produced by Western Sound 557 00:34:20,376 --> 00:34:25,306 Speaker 1: and Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can 558 00:34:25,326 --> 00:34:28,006 Speaker 1: hear the whole season ad-free and get early access to 559 00:34:28,026 --> 00:34:31,956 Speaker 1: the final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost 560 00:34:31,996 --> 00:34:34,636 Speaker 1: Hills show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm.