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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of four,

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Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger.

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Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing position and blogger. On

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Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our

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Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode forty nine. We think

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Speaker 1: we're planning on that at least it's July. We're recording

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Speaker 1: this in June, but a lot of people are figuring

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Speaker 1: out their summer childcare. Like you know, this is when

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Speaker 1: summer is always a good time for reevaluating lots of

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Speaker 1: things because the schedule tends to be a little bit different.

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Speaker 1: And Sarah, you recently had something that you are trying

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Speaker 1: to reevaluate. What's what's going on just involving trip childcare? Right? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So we had initially planned on bringing our nanny on

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Speaker 1: our trip, but then kind of things fell into place

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Speaker 1: where it made more sense to allow her to take

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Speaker 1: more of her vacation during that time, because otherwise we

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Speaker 1: kind of end up in a tough spot where, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'd rather have it later on where I have some

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Speaker 1: days off where she's off, versus anyway, it just made

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Speaker 1: best use of her vacation time, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: So we decided that actually it made more sense to

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Speaker 1: you know, just for the few things that we'd like

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Speaker 1: to do as adults, perhaps to try to find some childcare.

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Speaker 1: So my current task is to like go on care

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Speaker 1: dot com and or talk to Josh's cousin who lives

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Speaker 1: in Portland and find maybe an eager college student that

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Speaker 1: wouldn't mind doing like a couple of nights during the

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Speaker 1: week and maybe some daytime because I specifically want a

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Speaker 1: massage during this trip and that is not something I

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Speaker 1: want to try to bring the kids to. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: that's a little bit different. I know some people have

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Speaker 1: done like the whole vacation nanny route, where they've hired

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Speaker 1: someone to just go with them on the whole trip.

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Speaker 1: I think if we were going to just one place,

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Speaker 1: that would have been something I would have considered, so

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Speaker 1: that that way our current nanny could use her vacation days,

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Speaker 1: but then we'd have some help or even like bring

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Speaker 1: a family member, although my sister would be the great

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Speaker 1: contender for that, but she has a very inflexible job

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Speaker 1: because she owns a business, so that that doesn't work

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Speaker 1: very well for us. But yeah, the vacation childcare is

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Speaker 1: sort of our separate task. Do you guys do anything

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Speaker 1: special for trips or have you looked at your babysitting

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Speaker 1: portfolio recently? Well, we've certainly tried to. I mean there

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Speaker 1: are yes, various like sitter services in different locations that

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Speaker 1: we've we've used. You know that hotels sometimes have contracts

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Speaker 1: with sitters. There are people that have have been screened,

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Speaker 1: and especially if they're like, you know, only just staying

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Speaker 1: in your hotel room with the kids. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: seems like relatively low risk situation. You know, we've certainly

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Speaker 1: had had nanny's come with us on and that's usually

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Speaker 1: been a great option. You just have to make sure

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Speaker 1: you have separate rooms or big enough house or things

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Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's always

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Speaker 1: summer is a good time for thinking about this. We

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Speaker 1: have two other sitters other than our nanny that we've

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Speaker 1: been using sort of on and off. I would kind

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Speaker 1: of like to make sure I keep giving them some hours,

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Speaker 1: but that that evolves thinking through it ahead of time,

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Speaker 1: and you know that I'm asking for weekend stuff and

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Speaker 1: so you know, sometimes they're a little bit less available too.

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Speaker 1: So it's almost this thing like I need to make

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Speaker 1: sure they're still getting hours so they stay interested in us,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to you know, we just don't and then

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Speaker 1: people aren't ever available because they have other options, right

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Speaker 1: because I get another steady job. That makes that makes sense. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really quite a portfolio situation. It's one of those

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Speaker 1: things that you don't know going in, like, oh, how

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Speaker 1: you manage this of like keeping people interested in sitting

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Speaker 1: for you? And then you know, people move in and

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Speaker 1: out of your life, or they get other full time

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Speaker 1: jobs or they leave the area. But yeah, no, I

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Speaker 1: if people are listening to this, probably is the good.

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Speaker 1: Use this as a trigger to think about it, like

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Speaker 1: what is my sitter portfolio as I'm looking forward to

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Speaker 1: the coming school year, Also like do I have everything

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Speaker 1: in place? Because you know, certainly you could start looking

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Speaker 1: for people now. It's a good thing to think about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: college students, are you know a little bit more eager

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Speaker 1: too as the year is starting, perhaps to sign up

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Speaker 1: for things, although that has a that's also double edged sword,

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Speaker 1: because if they're really excited and they're like, oh, yes,

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Speaker 1: I want to make money in the new school year,

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Speaker 1: but then they realize they're more busy than they thought,

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Speaker 1: then that that sometimes can implode around finals time. I

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Speaker 1: kind of learned that the hard way a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago, which again is why I definitely appreciate the

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Speaker 1: portfolio approach, because then if you lose one person, you

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Speaker 1: still got your others. And I will say, I'm not

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Speaker 1: practicing what I preach right now because we really just

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Speaker 1: only use our nanny and one other very nice and

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Speaker 1: very reliable woman. But I think I just need at

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Speaker 1: least one more on the roster so I can feel

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Speaker 1: a little bit more covered covered exactly well. We are

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Speaker 1: excited to welcome Heidi Grant to the podcast today. One

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Speaker 1: of the major themes of Best of Both Worlds is

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Speaker 1: that martyrdom is totally overrated and asking for and expecting

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Speaker 1: help is the secret to a happier life. And Heidi

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Speaker 1: is actually an expert on asking for help. Her new book,

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Speaker 1: Reinforcements talks about the research on asking for assistance and

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Speaker 1: what works and what doesn't. Heidi is also a working

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Speaker 1: mom herself. So Heidi, we're really excited to have you here.

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Speaker 1: Can you please introduce yourself to our listeners. Sure, I'm

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Speaker 1: very excited to be here, So again, Heidi Grand Professionally,

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Speaker 1: I'm a social psychologist by training. I'm the chief science

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Speaker 1: Officer at the neuro Leadership Institute, and I also work

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Speaker 1: at Columbia University as an associate director of the Motivation

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Speaker 1: Science Center. As you said, I I'm also a mom.

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Speaker 1: I have two kids. My daughter is twelve and my

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Speaker 1: son is ten, And I'm really fascinated. I think you

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Speaker 1: know all of the books I write and the work

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Speaker 1: I do, with the research I do, I'm always looking

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Speaker 1: looking for those places where the science of human behavior

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Speaker 1: tells us something that shows us where our intuitions might

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Speaker 1: be wrong. So you know, some of my earlier books

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Speaker 1: are about goal setting and motivation and where we sometimes

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Speaker 1: blame our failures on the wrong things. And because we

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Speaker 1: blame our failures, you know, to reach certain goals on

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Speaker 1: the wrong things, we have a hard time than adjusting

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Speaker 1: and using the right strategies. My last book was about

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Speaker 1: how we often don't come across the way we think

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Speaker 1: we are to other people and how to use strategies

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Speaker 1: to bridge that gap. And this book, as you said,

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Speaker 1: is really around what I think is probably one of

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Speaker 1: the places where our intuitions are the most terrible for

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Speaker 1: some reason, and that is sort of asking for help,

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Speaker 1: understanding the likelihood that will get help from other people,

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Speaker 1: Understanding how to ask for help in a way that

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Speaker 1: makes it really rewarding to help you. There just seem

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Speaker 1: to be a lot lot of gaps for between how

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Speaker 1: all of us, myself included, approach this and what really

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Speaker 1: the research says is true. So it was an exciting

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Speaker 1: topic for me to dig into because I think, you know, there,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's there isn't really one of us out

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Speaker 1: there that doesn't need more help than we're getting, and

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Speaker 1: so to try to bridge that that gap for people

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Speaker 1: is a lot of fun to do. Yeah. Well, was

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Speaker 1: there anything in particular that sparked your wanting to write

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Speaker 1: this or over research you'd done over the years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know it. I had done some research in this

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Speaker 1: space and knew quite a bit about it. But I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm just as guilty I certainly was up

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Speaker 1: until I really started digging into the research to do

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Speaker 1: this book, just as guilty as everyone else of being

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Speaker 1: resistant to asking for help. You talked about how you

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Speaker 1: actually you admitted that you hate it. I hate it,

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Speaker 1: I totally. I mean and and and and there's still

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Speaker 1: some discomfort. And I think it's gotten a lot better,

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Speaker 1: you know, part of what I You know, there's really

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Speaker 1: when you think about why people don't ask for help,

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Speaker 1: there's really you can kind of break it down into,

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Speaker 1: you know, two big categories. One is that we worry

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Speaker 1: about what other people will think of us when we

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Speaker 1: ask for help, or we sort of judge ourselves negatively

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Speaker 1: for need being in the first pace. But we often

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Speaker 1: assume that people will think less of us because we

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Speaker 1: need help, that they might not like us as much, right,

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Speaker 1: that they'll kind of, you know, that somehow will be

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Speaker 1: judged negatively. Again, the research, actually, when you dig into this,

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Speaker 1: shows that the opposite is true. Not only do people

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Speaker 1: not think less of you and not like you less

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Speaker 1: when you ask them for help, the research actually shows

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Speaker 1: that they like you more, that helping one another is

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Speaker 1: actually something that kind of bonds people together, and that

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Speaker 1: when someone has actually helped you. They actually they increase

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Speaker 1: their liking for you, not decreasing. So again, like intuition

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Speaker 1: is completely wrong, right, people like us more when they

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Speaker 1: help us. So that's sort of one piece, right, there's

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Speaker 1: that sort of like, you know, how I worry about

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Speaker 1: how I'm being judged. The second part of it is

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Speaker 1: I worry about being rejected, right, I worry about being

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Speaker 1: turned down. It's incredibly painful. Like in the book, I

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Speaker 1: talk about really how our brains are wired to treat

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Speaker 1: social threats like being excluded, being rejected, being turned down

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Speaker 1: when you ask for help, being disrespected or not valued.

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Speaker 1: All of those things actually trigger real pain in the brain.

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Speaker 1: They're processed in much the same way that physical pain

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Speaker 1: is processed. So when we ask for help, part of

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Speaker 1: why we don't want to do it is that we're

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Speaker 1: kind of dreading hearing no and knowing how that might

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Speaker 1: make us feel, knowing the actual literal pain that will

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Speaker 1: experience from rejection, you know. So the other part of

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Speaker 1: the thing I spent a lot of time talking about

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Speaker 1: in the book is how again anticipating rejection. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're kind of wrong to worry about that so much,

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Speaker 1: because it turns out the people are much more likely

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Speaker 1: to help us than we think they are. On average,

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Speaker 1: when you look at the research, we underestimate the odds

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Speaker 1: of getting help by by more than half. So people

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Speaker 1: are at least twice as likely to help as we

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Speaker 1: as we think they'll be. One of the more fascinating

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Speaker 1: things that I read and you know, in Reinforcements was

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Speaker 1: your story of Benjamin Franklin. You know, Franklin is is

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Speaker 1: sort of the patron saint of self help, but he

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Speaker 1: had all sorts of great ideas for how you know,

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Speaker 1: people interact with each other. And you talk with a

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Speaker 1: story of him. You know, one of his fellow leaders

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Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, you know, not supporting him for something. And

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Speaker 1: so the way around that is he went and asked

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Speaker 1: this guy for a very rare book from his library,

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Speaker 1: like could he borrow this book from him? And which

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Speaker 1: seems ridiculous, like how is that going to help? But

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Speaker 1: the fact that he loaned him something and then he

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Speaker 1: wanted to you know, that this guy was asking him

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Speaker 1: for help. All of a sudden, this man is supporting

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Speaker 1: Benjamin like Benjamin Franklin is his friend, which is you know,

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Speaker 1: ben Franklin obviously knew a lot about human nature. But

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Speaker 1: I think that that demonstrates your point you're making on

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Speaker 1: that quite well. Absolutely, you know, he again, Franklin was

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Speaker 1: a really clever guy. He picked up on things that

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Speaker 1: a lot of us need to do, like lots of

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Speaker 1: experiments to figure out. But he knew that by asking

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Speaker 1: this guy for this very rare and valuable book, what

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Speaker 1: had basically happened was from the perspective of the person

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Speaker 1: who loaned him the book, he had then these sort

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Speaker 1: of two inconsistent thoughts rattling around in his mind. One

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Speaker 1: was I just loaned a very rare and very valuable

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Speaker 1: book to Ben Franklin. And then the other is I

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Speaker 1: really don't like Ben Franklin, and and and that kind

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Speaker 1: of you know. People were again sort of wired to

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Speaker 1: want to be consistent in our thinking, and when we

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Speaker 1: have these inconsistencies, it creates what psychologists call cognitive dissonance,

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Speaker 1: which is really like a tension state in the brain.

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Speaker 1: I believe two things that don't go together, and so

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Speaker 1: what happens is we tend to a jug one of

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Speaker 1: our beliefs so that they actually are compatible. And that's

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Speaker 1: what happened with Franklin. So after loaning him this book.

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Speaker 1: He basically the guy decided, well, you know what, I

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Speaker 1: must not think Ben Franklin's such a bad guy after all.

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Speaker 1: And there's actually lots of research that shows that that

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Speaker 1: this really is, this really works. There was one study where,

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Speaker 1: you know, people come into the lab, they earn money

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Speaker 1: for doing a task. But the experimenter, his name is

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Speaker 1: mister Boyd, that was his name. He was deliberately unpleasant

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Speaker 1: during the entire experience. You know, he'd say things like,

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Speaker 1: you know, pay attention, I don't want to have to

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Speaker 1: repeat myself. And he was really really rude to all

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Speaker 1: the participants, and at the end of it, half of

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Speaker 1: them were you know, mister Boyd comes up to them

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Speaker 1: at the end and says, look, here's the money, you know,

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Speaker 1: for participating in the experiment that you earned. But you know,

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Speaker 1: the thing is, I'm paying for this out of my

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Speaker 1: own pocket, and this is actually sort of the last

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Speaker 1: of my money, and I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind

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Speaker 1: not taking the money, because if you take it, I

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Speaker 1: actually don't have any money. And people would invariably say, okay,

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Speaker 1: you can keep the money. At the end of it,

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Speaker 1: they asked the participants how much they like mister Boyd.

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Speaker 1: And what you found was the people that got to

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Speaker 1: keep their money that he didn't ask for help from

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Speaker 1: they hated him. They rated him very very low. And

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Speaker 1: the people who asked who actually gave them the money

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Speaker 1: came the money back, rated him really high, like they

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Speaker 1: liked him. And in fact, the more money they had

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Speaker 1: to give him back, the more they liked him. So

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Speaker 1: there's this weird thing where it's like, if you do

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Speaker 1: a favor for someone who's you know, not very nice,

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Speaker 1: you are, you know, kind of a jerk, you like

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Speaker 1: them more, and if you do a big favor for them,

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Speaker 1: you start to think they're kind of a great person.

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Speaker 1: And so again it's one of these things where you know,

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Speaker 1: one of you know, ironically, one of the best ways

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Speaker 1: to get somebody to have a good impression of you

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Speaker 1: and to like you is to actually ask them for help. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is so fascinating. Do you think there's an aspect

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Speaker 1: of people like think seeing the person is more vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: like you know, in that particular experiment, it might be

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Speaker 1: partly the help and partly I guess, well, maybe it's

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Speaker 1: the fact that when somebody asks you for help they're

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Speaker 1: sort of revealing themselves as another real person with the

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Speaker 1: same human challenges rather than just some sort of abstract other.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if that's yes. I think that

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Speaker 1: that's probably true. I think that that show it that

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Speaker 1: there's something human and suddenly you can relate to this

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Speaker 1: person in some way. I think that's part of it. Also,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things we know about and

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Speaker 1: one of the again the big themes of the book

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Speaker 1: that I that I really want people to walk away

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Speaker 1: understanding is that helping feels great. You know, much of

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Speaker 1: the time. There's a few things I talk about where

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Speaker 1: we kind of ruin it for people sometimes and that

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Speaker 1: like we make it not possibly like the helping isn't satisfying.

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Speaker 1: But most of the time, much of the time, helping

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Speaker 1: other people feels really good. It's one of the most

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Speaker 1: reliable ways to increase people's sense of well being, their

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Speaker 1: self esteem. It's one of the most reliable ways to

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Speaker 1: be like end up in a good mood is to

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Speaker 1: is to to do something helpful for someone else. So

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Speaker 1: the other thing that's happening Mary, like when I give

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Speaker 1: mister Boyd that money back, I feel good about me

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Speaker 1: and I feel like I'm a good person, I did

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Speaker 1: the right thing. I'm going to have a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a boost of positive mood. And that also transfers

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Speaker 1: onto my feelings toward mister Boyd. I mean, he just

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Speaker 1: kind of created a moment where I could feel good

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Speaker 1: about myself. And I think we all have those when

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Speaker 1: we you know, it's so one of the great ironies

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Speaker 1: of helping is that we all feel good helping and

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Speaker 1: that's just human nature, and we all feel terrible asking

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Speaker 1: for help even though you know. And again this is

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Speaker 1: when one of the reasons we underestimate so much why

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Speaker 1: the likelihood that other people will help us, is that

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Speaker 1: when we're thinking about asking them for help, all we're

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Speaker 1: thinking about is the effort they'll have to put in,

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Speaker 1: how unpleasant it might be for them, or like how

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Speaker 1: onerous the task is. We're not It's like a massive

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Speaker 1: failure of perspective taking. We're not thinking about how it

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Speaker 1: is form First of all, we're not thinking about how

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Speaker 1: awkward it would be for them to say no, they

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Speaker 1: don't want to do that, right, that's unpleasant on the

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Speaker 1: on the on the on the helper side, and also

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Speaker 1: the benefits of helping the real boost. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: there's very few things in life that actually more reliably

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Speaker 1: lead to feeling good about yourself than helping other people.

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Speaker 1: We're just wired that way. So so I always sort

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Speaker 1: of say, you know, when you're feeling awkward about asking

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Speaker 1: for help, remember you know you're actually creating an opportunity

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Speaker 1: for somebody to feel really good about themselves. There's this

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Speaker 1: is really a potential win win, and I think again

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Speaker 1: some of that warm glow that we feel sort of

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Speaker 1: transfers to how we feel about the person we helped.

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Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about those ways that you can

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Speaker 1: ruin that we could we could do a whole like

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Speaker 1: effective ask like, so let's talk about what's an effective

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Speaker 1: ask and what's an ineffective ask? So how we can

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Speaker 1: do it well? And then how we ruin it. Oh,

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Speaker 1: there's lots of ways to ruin it. So and again

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Speaker 1: there's and you can mean different different things by ruining it.

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Speaker 1: So so you can do things that actually lower your

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Speaker 1: chances of getting help, and then you can do things that,

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Speaker 1: while you'll still probably get the help, it will be

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Speaker 1: less rewarding for the other person. So why don't we

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Speaker 1: start with what are the things we do that make

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Speaker 1: us less likely to actually get help. The very first

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Speaker 1: thing we do is sort of fail to recognize that

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Speaker 1: the helper needs some things from you in order to

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Speaker 1: actually give you help. And the first two, which kind

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Speaker 1: of go together, are the helper needs to the potential

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Speaker 1: helper needs to actually know that you need help and

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Speaker 1: that you want it. And this is actually a huge

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Speaker 1: gap for a lot of people, because, first of all,

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Speaker 1: because none of us really like asking for help, we

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Speaker 1: all kind of walk around wishing that people would just

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Speaker 1: help us. And I mean, I think that's no more

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Speaker 1: you know, again, speaking from experience that's nowhere is that

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Speaker 1: more true than sort of when it comes to our partners.

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Speaker 1: You know, I remember very very often feeling with my

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Speaker 1: children's father that I just couldn't believe he couldn't see

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Speaker 1: how much help I needed, right, that he wasn't just

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Speaker 1: spontaneously getting up and offering to do things because clearly

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Speaker 1: I was so overwhelmed and had so many things that

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Speaker 1: I needed to do. That's actually just not how it works.

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Speaker 1: The truth is that other people like and we are

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Speaker 1: all guilty of this. We mostly attend to things that

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Speaker 1: have to do with ourselves. We don't notice other people's

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Speaker 1: need nearly as much as people assume we do. And

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Speaker 1: that's because again, there's just so much to pay attention to.

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Speaker 1: There's so much information coming in at us, and and

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Speaker 1: all of us are kind of again, our brains are

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Speaker 1: wired to pay the most attention to the things that

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Speaker 1: affect us directly. So each of us is sort of

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Speaker 1: going around throughout our day mostly focused on our own stuff,

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Speaker 1: but assuming that everybody else is paying attention to us, right,

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Speaker 1: and nothing could be further than the truth. They are

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Speaker 1: all in their own little worlds. And we talk about

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Speaker 1: this a lot on the show, Yes and Our somebody

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Speaker 1: notices what you do exactly, ourselves included. You know, we

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Speaker 1: are all guilty of this. And so there's a very

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Speaker 1: good chance that the reason if you're not getting the

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Speaker 1: help you need, there's a very good chance that the

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Speaker 1: people you want help from are not seeing your need.

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Speaker 1: They're not understanding it, they're not noticing it because they're

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Speaker 1: too busy noticing their own needs. And it's not a

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Speaker 1: failure of wanting to help, it's not even selfishness, it's

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Speaker 1: just actually the way we're all wired. So the first

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Speaker 1: thing is you need to actually notice and the busier

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Speaker 1: people are, the more things they have on their plate,

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Speaker 1: the less likely they are to notice that somebody else

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Speaker 1: needs help, even somebody even when you think that that

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Speaker 1: should be There's something called the psychologists called the illusion

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Speaker 1: of transparency. We all feel that our thoughts and feelings

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Speaker 1: and intentions are obvious to other people and nothing could

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Speaker 1: be further from the truth. So we need to make

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Speaker 1: explicit requests for help. We need to get over that

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Speaker 1: sort of fantasy world where people will just offer spontaneous

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Speaker 1: that help to you and you never have to ask

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Speaker 1: for it. It's not realistic. We need to ask for it.

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Speaker 1: And because the other part of it is even if

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Speaker 1: someone does notice that you need help at work or

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Speaker 1: at home, they may not know that you want it.

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Speaker 1: So you may need it, but you may not want it.

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Speaker 1: And if you've ever offered unwanted help to someone, you

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Speaker 1: know how unpleasant people can be when you know they

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Speaker 1: because it. They'll sometimes take it as sort of an insult, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you think I can't do this on my own, And

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Speaker 1: so people are very reluctant even when they see the

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Speaker 1: need to offer it if it's you know, in an

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Speaker 1: unsolicited way, because they don't want to offend you. They

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Speaker 1: don't want to give you something you don't actually want.

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Speaker 1: So for both of those reasons, we really need to

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Speaker 1: be explicit. You need to not make assumptions. There's a

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Speaker 1: phrase that I absolutely hate that I want to ban

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Speaker 1: from the English language. That is it goes without saying.

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Speaker 1: Nothing goes without saying. Everything goes with saying, because people

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Speaker 1: need to being said to them explicitly if you want

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Speaker 1: something in return. So I think that's sort of the

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Speaker 1: probably the one of the biggest mistakes we make right there.

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Speaker 1: I'd say, another very very common mistake, and this is

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Speaker 1: really more true in the context of work. You see

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Speaker 1: this a lot is that we make requests for help

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Speaker 1: to a whole bunch of people at once. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: you send out that email saying like, hey, I really

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Speaker 1: need somebody who can help me on this particular project,

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Speaker 1: and you send us to ten people who could poticularly

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Speaker 1: help or Laura, you know you and I as book authors.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes yes, you bring this up, Heidi, that's the one.

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Speaker 1: That's the one. We send out a group email right

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Speaker 1: to everybody and we say, hey, everyone I know, would

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Speaker 1: you possibly you know, read my book and if you

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Speaker 1: like it, would you say something nice about it? All? Right,

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing, Heidi, after reading your book, I

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Speaker 1: didn't do that. I know, right, I emailed one hundred

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Speaker 1: people individually and ask them like influencers to did it work? Well? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would say the vast majority did. I mean, there

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Speaker 1: are people I know, so I mean it would be

431
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 1: I mean, in many cases, I feel like it would

432
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,719
Speaker 1: be almost rude. Like you know, there's somebody who for years,

433
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 1: like you write them specifically saying hey, please, you know,

434
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: post on your blog, Twitter or whatever, you know, just

435
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: wish me a happy pub date. I would say the

436
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: vast majority did. But I'm curious because Heidi, I was

437
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,639
Speaker 1: on a mass email from you. What but I you

438
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: know what I did. I did? I sent so so

439
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,360
Speaker 1: I was again and this is one of the things

440
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 1: that you're pressed for time. So what happens is we

441
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: send these group emails out for support because we're pressed

442
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 1: for time. I mean, the reality is we we want

443
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: to kind of, you know, send one kind of math

444
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: plea out and you kind of assume that you know,

445
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: that'll be fine. And what the research shows, right, is

446
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: something called diffusion of responsibility, so that the more people

447
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: who could help you, the less likely anyone is to

448
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 1: actually help you, because each person feels less responsible. In

449
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 1: that case, you sort of sit there and you go, well,

450
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of the other people are doing it,

451
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 1: so I don't really need to do it. And yes,

452
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: I knew this, right So I sent one of these

453
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: mass emails out and I knew it going in and

454
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 1: I was so I was absolutely crunched per time. My

455
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: editor was like, you need to do this right now.

456
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: So I did it. But what I did was I

457
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: actually did a little bit. I'm like, you know, apologies

458
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,719
Speaker 1: for the mass email. And what I did was I

459
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: did send actually individual emails, but I had the bulk

460
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: of the text I just copied and pasted. But I

461
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: acknowledged that I had done that, and so that people

462
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: would feel like a little bit less likely generic in

463
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,919
Speaker 1: this situation because it's like, okay, I'm apologizing. Look, I

464
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 1: know like I'm pressed for time. But and the other

465
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: thing I did, so I'll come back to this in

466
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 1: a second, because I did something else that is related

467
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: to how you can get more help. That is a

468
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 1: good strategy. So I violated my own rule of it,

469
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: but I did so knowingly, like I was like, I

470
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 1: know that this is kind of lower my chance, and

471
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to take it on the chin. On that one,

472
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: it is generally speaking much if you have the time,

473
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: much much more effective to send out individual requests. The

474
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: other thing that it's actually much that's even more true

475
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: is that email requests in general are much less effective

476
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: than face to face or phone like sort of live requests. Now, again,

477
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: the reality is a lot of times we have to

478
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: do things by email. You either maybe don't know the

479
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 1: person well enough to pick up the phone and call them,

480
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: or you don't see the person face to face. But

481
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: in the context of work, where generally speaking, a lot

482
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: of these people you're working with are like down the hole.

483
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: It's amazing how often we ask for help over email,

484
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: and we do it because it's more comfortable for us, right,

485
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 1: It's like, it feels, you know, less awkward to put

486
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: in a request over email. But what the research shows

487
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: is you're thirty four times more likely to get a

488
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: yes if you ask for help in person rather than

489
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 1: buy a email. There a lot so when searched in

490
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: this particular study, it took two hundred emails to get

491
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: to the same success rate as six in person requests.

492
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's huge, And again it's because we don't

493
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: think about, like, yes, asking by email is easier for you,

494
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: but you know what, it also is easier for the

495
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:30,479
Speaker 1: other person to say no. How funny exactly exactly. So

496
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: whenever you can again like get over that initial discomfort

497
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: and create either like a phone or face to face

498
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: interaction where you're asking for the help, you're just vastly

499
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 1: more likely to do it. Now. The other thing that

500
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: I did when I sent out that email to all

501
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: of my book author friends saying hey, guys, would you

502
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: give me a hand with this, is that I actually

503
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: reminded people right at the beginning that we are fellow

504
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: book authors, and that is something that's another motivator for

505
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: helper And it's called like in group identity, So in

506
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: other words, we are more like And again this is

507
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: just out of how human beings are. We're more likely

508
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: to help other people that we see as a part

509
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: of our own group, that we see as sort of

510
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: part on the same team, having the same goals. People

511
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: with whom we share common experiences are common identity. We're

512
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: just naturally more inclined to be helpful to those people

513
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: than we are to people with whom we feel we

514
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: have nothing in common and we don't share common goals.

515
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: So there's another little thing you can do, which is

516
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 1: sort of that subtle reminder, like, hey, you and I

517
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: do share a common identity. We're all in the same boat.

518
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: We all know how how hard it is to you

519
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 1: know how much we all hate asking for this, right,

520
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: And that's the thing that kind of puts people in

521
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 1: that mindset. If you know what, I will help you,

522
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: because you're right, we're all in the same boat and

523
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: we all should be helping each other out. And again

524
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,959
Speaker 1: that's a good thing. We have a lot of a

525
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: decent cohort of physician listeners, and this whole thing absolutely

526
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: strikes a chord with me in terms of call requests.

527
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 1: So when you get your schedule like a year in advance,

528
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 1: invariably things come up and you have to switch or

529
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: and so this is a common conversation and I'm like

530
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: listening to you and thinking, oh my god, instinctively, I

531
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: totally Number one, I always walk into someone's office like

532
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: when they're in a good mood, like I would never

533
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: ask them over email, right. And number two, I think

534
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: I do do that thing where I'm like, oh, you know,

535
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: I tend to ask the people who have kids, and

536
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: I'll be like, you know, all those school events I

537
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: have one to go to, can you cover me for

538
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: this day? And if you have one coming up, then

539
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: I can cover you. But that's so true. It's like

540
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: it's like you create that that it creates empathy, you know,

541
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: because it's like that that common experience that we share

542
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 1: helps me to empathize with you, which makes me more

543
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: likely to help. Empathy is one of the strongest predictors

544
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: of helping, right, So yeah, with this, So she also

545
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: wants to focus I think you said something in the

546
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: book about people often frame the requests in terms of themselves, like, oh,

547
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: you'll be helpful to me, which you know, as much

548
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: as I might love all of you, is sort of

549
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: less motivational than what I might get out of it. Yeah,

550
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: so you also have to frame the requests in terms

551
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: of more that person's identity being part of the group

552
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: and what they might get from it, and the and

553
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 1: and the get from it part. You know, it's important

554
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: to understand that that that what they want to get

555
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: from it is not necessarily a reward, is not necessarily

556
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 1: in fact, actually there's research that suggests that when you

557
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: make it in exchange, especially with someone you already have

558
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: a relationship with, it can actually kind of take it

559
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: down a peg. Like so you don't you don't actually

560
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: want to say, oh, if you do this thing for me,

561
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: then I'll buy you lunch. You know that actually sort

562
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: of makes it feel like this, like very like, oh well,

563
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: originally I was going to do it because I was

564
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: going to feel like the great person who was very

565
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: supportive to my friend and colleague. But now I'm apparently

566
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: doing it for lunch, which it doesn't allow me to

567
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: feel like a really good person in the mix. So so,

568
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: you know, I think that what we people do want, though,

569
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: and I talk a lot about this in the book,

570
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: is to be able to feel effective. And that's a

571
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: thing that a lot of times we miss the mark on.

572
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: So if you if you know an example that you use,

573
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: like if you're going to switch switch with me so

574
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: that I can go to my child's event, I can

575
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: see immediately how the impact I understand immediately the impact

576
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: of my helping will be on you, Like I can

577
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: picture that and I can feel good about that. A

578
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: lot of times people ask us for help, and we

579
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: were not really quite sure what the impact of our

580
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: help would be. And people are demotivated in those cases

581
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: they really want to and you know, and whenever possible,

582
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: we should actually kind of circle back and let them

583
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: know what the impact was, because that is that's the

584
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: moment where you feel good. So I was a university

585
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: professor for years and every every fall, students come to

586
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: you and they ask for letters of recommendation for grad school,

587
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: medical school, jobs, and so on. And it's amazing what

588
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: small fraction of them actually ever think to kind of

589
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: contact you later and let you know how it all

590
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: turned out. And on the job. By the way, Hey, yes,

591
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: and you would like to hear that exactly. I'd like

592
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 1: to know, like what school did you get? And that's

593
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: the moment where that help is rewarding. It's the moment

594
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: when you feel like your help landed and you know

595
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: how it landed because you're seeing the impact. You know,

596
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: writing the letters of recommendation isn't that satisfying because you're

597
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: not really sure what's going to happen, But hearing about

598
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: what happened is the moment that feels really good. And

599
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot of research that shows this. For example,

600
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: with people who do like charity work. There was one

601
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: great study where people who were volunteer fundraisers for a

602
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: scholarship at a university. They had you know, it's it's

603
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: difficult work. You're getting on the phone and cold calling

604
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: people and asking them for money for the scholarship. And

605
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: what the researchers did was for half of those people,

606
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: they introduced them to a scholarship recipient who had you know,

607
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: who had gotten that scholarship and who got a chance

608
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: to talk to them about the impact that it had

609
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: on their lives. And then they looked and after that

610
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: happened for the next month, they looked at, you know,

611
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: sort of their effort and the money they reased, and

612
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: the people who had met the scholarship recipient actually spent

613
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: two to three times as much time on the phone

614
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: in the subsequent month and also raised more than twice

615
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: as much money. And so there is something about sort

616
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: of tangibly knowing how how your what effect your help

617
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: is going to have. And I encourage people to actually

618
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,959
Speaker 1: put that in the request itself. You know, you know,

619
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: you if you help me in this way, it's going

620
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: to have a huge impact on my ability to reach

621
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: this goal, or if you help this in me in

622
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: this way, it's going to give me the time to

623
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: do this other thing that I really want to do

624
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: that's going to be really beneficial to me. The more

625
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: vivid you can make that for people so they can

626
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: really see like, oh, you know, because everybody wants to

627
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: be an effective helper. Nobody wants to do something and

628
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: it didn't help. There's no joy in that, there's no

629
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: personal well being in that. So so to the extent

630
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: that we can create that for people, it's incredibly motivating

631
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: for them to understand the impact that they can have.

632
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: So let's talk through a few scenarios of how we

633
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: might practically ask for help. So, I mean, let's say

634
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: like Sarah's off this okay, so she's really busy physicians,

635
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: seeing all kinds of people, She's starting the new residency program.

636
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: Let's you know, also has a six month old baby.

637
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: I'll give you, I'll give you. I'll give you an

638
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: unrealistic example with this. Let's say I'm on call and

639
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: I get a request like to fit in an urgent appointment,

640
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: but I'm about to finish my call week and I

641
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: have no space in my schedule the next week. So

642
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: this is a realistic one where I might kind of

643
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: make it a lot easier if I could kind of

644
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: give it to the next personal call or give it

645
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: to somebody else. But because I have so much going on.

646
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I feel kind of guilty

647
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: for asking, because everyone has a lot going on. Okay,

648
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: what would your advice to me? I think I think

649
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: that it's really so you want to ask. So the

650
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: first and foremost, we need to get over the guilt thing.

651
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: Everybody needs help sometimes, and the world is a better

652
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: place with more asking because more asking creates more opportunities

653
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: to help, and it creates relationships where you can have

654
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: that reciprocity so that someone later on who needs your

655
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: help can ask for it when you are perhaps in

656
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: a position to give it. Yes, it's true that other

657
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: people are busy, and that's a reason to be reasonable

658
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: about your requests and to be understanding when people can't

659
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: help for whatever reason. But it's not a reason to

660
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: not ask. We should all be doing a lot more asking.

661
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: So first and foremost, I think you want to ask. Secondly,

662
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: you want to ask explicitly. In this case, it's a

663
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: very explicit request that you would be making. One of

664
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: the mistakes I see people make a lot is they

665
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: make these vague requests for help. And people turn down

666
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: vague requests for help all the time because again, they're

667
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: not sure what it is you're really asking. They're not

668
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: sure if they can be effective, they're not sure it's

669
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: something they'll want to do. I'll just give you a

670
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: quick example that I promise happens to Laura. I know

671
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: for a fact this must happen because it happens to me.

672
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: People read your books and things and they are interested

673
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: in them. That's great, it's amazing. That's what you want.

674
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: You want people to get stimulated and excited. And they

675
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: send you an email and they say things like I'd

676
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: love to get together and I'd love to connect, or

677
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: I'd love to pick your brain, or i'd love to chat,

678
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: Like can I get an appointment with you or meeting

679
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: with you, or go to coffee and connect or chat

680
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: or something like this. Now here's the thing. They want

681
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: something right now. They don't want to just connect. That's

682
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: not even a thing. There's something they want right either.

683
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: They want to ask you some questions that came up

684
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: for them when they were reading your work, or they

685
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: want something kind of information, or they want an introduction

686
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: perhaps to someone that you know in common, or they want,

687
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: you know, in my case, it's like maybe they want

688
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: to learn more about the company that I work for,

689
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: and maybe they want a job, and those are all

690
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: fine things to want. But say it like, say that

691
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: that's the thing that you want from me, because that

692
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: way I have certainty about what this is about and

693
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: whether or not I can provide you with the thing

694
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: that you're asking, and whether or not I want to

695
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: provide you with the thing that you're asking. That actually

696
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: really increases the chances that I'm going to help you.

697
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 1: So pacific requests, I mean, when I get those requests

698
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: to just connect, I mean half the time, I'm not

699
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,959
Speaker 1: proud of this, but the truth is I ignore them

700
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: and a lot of the time and and I ignore them,

701
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 1: and I feel bad about it. But what feels worse

702
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: is like awkward conversations with strangers that actually feels even

703
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: worse to me. So like, I don't I don't like

704
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: to put myself in that position. So I think you know,

705
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: in your case, you're talking about your making a really

706
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: explicit request, which is great. People know exactly what it

707
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: is you're asking them for, and then you know, and

708
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: again I would, I would explain why you know you

709
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: never want to make a request this just can you

710
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: take this shift from me? Or can you take this

711
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: thing off my plate without explaining what the reason is,

712
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: because people do have a bad reaction to feeling like that,

713
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 1: the like it's possible that you just are pushing something

714
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: onto them that you don't want to do. And I

715
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: again see that as a very common mistake that I

716
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 1: see that people will say, hey, would you mind taking

717
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: this call for me with a client where you know

718
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: in my organization? Can you make this call for you

719
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: for the client? Why? Why? Because is it because this

720
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: client is a real pain? Like is that the reason

721
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: that I'm met to? Or you know, are you just

722
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: you don't feel like it? I mean, you know what's

723
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: the reason if you say you know, it's because I'm

724
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: really slammed or you know that you want to explain

725
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 1: to people either I'm really really slammed, or I'm exhausted

726
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: because I've been slammed for so long, or I have

727
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: this other thing that's really important that I need to do,

728
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: or I ran into this I tried doing this on

729
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: my own, but I ran into an obstacle I just

730
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 1: can't seem to get past. Do you think that you

731
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: would be able to help me get past this obstacle?

732
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: You know, you want to give them the why, because that,

733
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 1: again is going to create empathy for you, It's going

734
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: to create understanding, it's going to make them feel like

735
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: your request is legitimate, it's valid, it's appropriate for you

736
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: to be asking. So so I think those are some

737
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: simple things that we can do. Again, a lot of

738
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: time that stuff is in our heads, but we don't

739
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: say it, and other people need that context in order

740
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: to feel really good about helping you and not feel

741
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: like they're really being taken advantage of or manipulated in

742
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: some way. Now, how about kids? Like? Can we talk

743
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 1: about kids? Sure? Sure? And I will add to that

744
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: inter generally intergenerational differences because you know, as we work

745
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: with more and more younger h millennials or even Generation

746
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: ZE starting to come up in there. Yeah, do you

747
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,439
Speaker 1: feel like this differs? Are kids more willing to ask

748
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: for help? I feel like millennials are. Maybe I'm wrong,

749
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: I don't know that would be my experience certainly, And again,

750
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: I think some of that is born. Some of that

751
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 1: is very healthy and some of it is not. And

752
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: it's not that the asking for help is the problem. Again,

753
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: So coming to this is through the lens of I

754
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: was a university professor for a long time. I have

755
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 1: had a lot of undergraduates in my office. And there's

756
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: there's again these sort of two different situations you run into.

757
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: One is where you've got the undergraduate who comes into

758
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: your office. They have done everything they possibly could do.

759
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: They tried to find the information, they tried to solve

760
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: the problem themselves. They worked hard, you know, whether it's

761
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: they have questions about a test or whether it's they

762
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: have questions about their major and what classes they should

763
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: be taking. And you can see that. There's there's the

764
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: kids that gave it like they're all and they're stuck

765
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: for some reason and they come to you. And that's

766
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: an incredibly rewarding thing for me and for just about

767
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: anybody to get to help under those circumstances. Right, It's like,

768
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: here's this person who's like, you know, really deserving of help,

769
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: and I get to feel really good that I help

770
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: them get past whatever that obstacle was, and that's incredibly rewarding.

771
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 1: Then there's the other ones who come into your office

772
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 1: and they like just didn't bother, you know, like they

773
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 1: didn't bother to like open a book or like look online.

774
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: You know. There's my professors tend to like pass things

775
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: around to each other when we're kind of like all exacerbated,

776
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: but like ask exasperated about something. And one of my

777
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: favorite ones that came from a colleague of mine was

778
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: a student who had asked her what time the exam

779
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: was in response to an email the professor had sent.

780
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: The subject line said what time the exam was? And

781
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: it's like that, you know, it's just one of like

782
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: these things where you go, like, wow, you could not

783
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: even be bothered to read this at all before you

784
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: just sort of pit reply and said what time is

785
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: the exam? And and so there's there's those are the

786
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: moments where I do think that, you know, there's there's

787
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: generations where definitely, if you look at older generations, there

788
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: were definitely I think, too much concern with asking for

789
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: help as a sign of weakness or you know, that

790
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: we should all be these like incredibly independent creatures, especially

791
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: in the US, you do see cross cultural differences in

792
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: this as well. So like in very independent cultures where

793
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: people are kind of believed that you pull yourself up

794
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: by your bootstraps and you go it alone, and the

795
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: US is sort of like this. A lot of Western

796
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: cultures are like this. Then then you do see generationally older,

797
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,760
Speaker 1: older people being seeming to be a bit more proud,

798
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: so to speak, thinking that asking for help is a

799
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: sign of weakness. I think it's a really positive thing

800
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: that younger people today don't seem to have as much

801
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 1: of that, that they feel more perhaps interconnected, they feel

802
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: like it's more socially acceptable to ask for help. But

803
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: you do see that sort of like the pendulum perhaps

804
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: swinging a little too far in that, you know, and

805
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 1: perhaps it's because of parenting styles having shifted that people

806
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: just getting a lot of help. I see a lot

807
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: of kids. I see this with my own children, a

808
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: lot of parents over helping, over protecting, the helicopter parenting

809
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: that the doing everything for your kid. You know, the

810
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: kids who come into class and they've clearly have the

811
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 1: project that was sent home with them was clearly done

812
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: by their parents, And that can set up kids for

813
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: asking for help at times where it's really not appropriate.

814
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: You really should have tried, you know you really should

815
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: have done it yourself, and you're robbing your You know what,

816
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: why it really matters, apart from the fact that that's annoying,

817
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: is that you know it's actually doing them harm. Because

818
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: one of the most salient and important sources of confidence

819
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 1: and self efficacy and self esteem that a human being

820
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: has is being able to look back. And this is

821
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: a research based statement, not just meet my personal opinion.

822
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: One of the strongest source of confidence and self efficacy

823
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 1: is being able to look back on the challenges that

824
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: you have overcome, and knowing that you have overcome them

825
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: gives you confidence moving forward that you can handle the

826
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: new obstacles that hit you. And so when people get

827
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: to go too far in the asking for help all

828
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: the time because I kind of just don't feel like

829
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: doing this myself, you're actually getting robbed of experiences that

830
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: would have built confidence and self efficacy for you going forward.

831
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: So I do think that it is something where we

832
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 1: don't want the pendulum. You know, a request for help

833
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: need to be valid and legitimate and not the consequence

834
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: of just I don't feel like doing it, And that's important.

835
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: So Hia, but what if I just want my kid

836
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: to like empty the dishwasher more frequently like that. If

837
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: I had the answer to if I don't really like

838
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: if I had like a silver bullet for that one,

839
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: I think I would that would just be like the

840
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: one book I wrote and be like how to get

841
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: your kid to do what you tell them to do?

842
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I do, I do think that there is

843
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: something to some of these same techniques. Right. So a

844
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: lot of times parents don't communicate why the child doing

845
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: these things is so important. Right, So it is actually

846
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: important to actually articulate, you know, when you do this

847
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: because of it. Yeah, not just because I said so,

848
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: because it's a drag or you know, trying to create

849
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 1: guilt tris, but actually saying, you know, when when you

850
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: do this, here's what Here's the impact that it has

851
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: on me. Here's the impact that it has on all

852
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: of us, you know, here's here's why it's so important

853
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: to contribute to you know, you're you're a member of

854
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: this team and we're all in it together. And when

855
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: you do that, it's it is so great for me,

856
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: you know, and I see you know you as I

857
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: see you developing, you know, you're you're being becoming older

858
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: and more responsible and that's something I really you know,

859
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: respect and that other people will respect. So you want

860
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: that like positive identity that you want them to feel

861
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 1: like they're a good person and they're there's there, and

862
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: it's a reflection of their good qualities that they would

863
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: do this thing. And they're a good team player as

864
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: a help right, Yeah, exactly, you're a helper. They're a

865
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: helper versus just like the statement of identity is more important.

866
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: The identity stuff is really it is an opportunity to

867
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: create positive identity for them and we just need to

868
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: take it. And it's all in the sort of that

869
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: language you use. And I talk to my daughter when

870
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: she's helpful about again, you know, what a helpful person

871
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: she is, how I see her growing into such a

872
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: responsible young woman, you know, and really maturing, and and

873
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: it's all true. I mean I'm not just saying those things.

874
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: I think that as she contributes more and more to

875
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: the house, as she helps me more and takes responsibility

876
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: for things more, that is all true. That's all a

877
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: part of her development. And when you acknowledge that, it's

878
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: really motivating for them. It's not just to have to

879
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: do it's not just to let me get Mom off

880
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: my back. But it's like, wow, Mom really admires me

881
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: for making these contributions. You know, they are something I

882
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: should do, but it's also something that is admirable. And

883
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: I think when we can frame things that way, we

884
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: again we're playing off of that natural desire. The teenagers

885
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: absolutely have kids absolutely have you know, to be seen

886
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: positively in the eyes of others. They want that just

887
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: like we do. Yeah, exactly. Well, maybe that'll be your

888
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: next book there we go, how to get your kids

889
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: to wash the dishes. It will just be in addendum

890
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: to they It'll be like in the next edition, I'll

891
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: put like that as another chapter. By the way, this

892
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: on your children wonderful. All right, well, this has been

893
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: a great interview with Heidi Grant. Her new book is

894
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: Reinforcements about how to So Heidi the exact subtitle. Sorry, oh,

895
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: it's Reinforcements how to get people to help you exactly.

896
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: And we all know that one of the ways of

897
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: having the best of both worlds is not doing everything

898
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: ourselves and asking for help. So we've had a lot

899
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: of great advice there from Heidi on doing so effectively.

900
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: So Heidi, thanks so much for being on Thank you both.

901
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 1: Thank you, Hi, thank you both so much. This is

902
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: a lot of fun. Well, that was a great interview,

903
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: and now we segue into our Q and A. So

904
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: this week we're going to do a Q and A

905
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: for me my question, which is a situation where I

906
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: sort of thought I had asked for help, but maybe

907
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 1: I did not do so effectively. So, you know, people

908
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: who've been listening to those podcasts are reading my blog

909
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: sort of no general outlines of my family situation. So

910
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: my husband and I both travel for work. You know,

911
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: both have reasonably demanding jobs. He definitely travels more for

912
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: work than I do. We've had some tension in the

913
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 1: past over times that are very busy for me, namely

914
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: around book launches, and I have this perception like I

915
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: feel he's not giving the same level of home and

916
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 1: kid support during my busy times that I feel he's

917
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: given me during his busy times. Now, obviously recognize certain

918
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: things like he works for a company right like I

919
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: do not I work for myself, and so there's slightly

920
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: less control of the time. Although on the other hand,

921
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,919
Speaker 1: he's worked for the same company for twenty five years.

922
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: In the honest truth is he has one hundred percent

923
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,919
Speaker 1: control over time. All right, that's just my editorial comment.

924
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: I wrote out a nice calm question, and now here

925
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: I am like already editorializing. Is the problem of doing

926
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: your own question anyway, So in the past, like we've

927
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 1: has various things with book launches, it's always been a

928
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: thing like, oh, I didn't know what was coming up,

929
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: Yes you did, come on, it's been my email signature

930
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: for six months, or you know, like it was just

931
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: a really busy time for me. Anyway. So I told

932
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: him the book launch date for Off the Clock like

933
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: ten months ago, and asked that he please scale down

934
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: his travel around it so he could handle the kid's

935
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: stuff that I normally do. And you know, we have

936
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: a full time nanny, but with forked kids there's always

937
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: parental stuff too, and even if like you outsource that too,

938
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: it's like arranging for a second driver, like taking on

939
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: the logistics of that or whatever. You know, kid appointments

940
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: had to be made and all that. So I asked

941
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: if he could do that or figure out someone else

942
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: to do it, but get the mental load off me

943
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: for a few weeks, a big chunk of which would

944
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: be to not travel as much. And then he could

945
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 1: also handle things like the three time three year old

946
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: bedtime battles, so I could work anyway. Let's just say,

947
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: long story short, this did not happen really at all.

948
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: So my question is, Sarah, like, how should I deal

949
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 1: with this? How do I talk myself down from the ledge?

950
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: Or how do I ask to be more effective on

951
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: my next book launch? Oh man, Okay, So yes, I

952
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: think it's a two pronged question. At the end that

953
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: you just said is key. So there's two parts. Number one, like,

954
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: let's get down from the ledge, because your husband is

955
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: a really nice guy. I've met him, and I have

956
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: a feeling that maybe he wasn't I'm giving him the

957
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt here that maybe he wasn't hearing

958
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: exactly what you needed. So we'll get there in a second.

959
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: And the second part is, how could we potentially have

960
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: a better experience next time? Because there certainly will be

961
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: a next time because I'm sure there well, we know

962
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: there's at least one more book to g in the pipeline.

963
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: There's gonna be more after that. So I guess my

964
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: first thought is, you know, in my experience, sometimes I

965
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: feel like when I flip out about my husband not

966
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 1: something to come that's coming up. Sometimes he has a

967
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: little bit too big of a grain of salt, at

968
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: least in my opinion, like, you know what, Sarah's freaking out,

969
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: but really it's probably gonna work out, okay, and I'm

970
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 1: not going to take it that seriously. And then a

971
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: lot of times he's proven right. So then that kind

972
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 1: of perpetuates the behavior because I guess Earth didn't stop

973
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: spitting on its axis. Yeah, Like I would like maybe

974
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: maybe you asked him, you know, oh, I need like,

975
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: you know, cone of silence for a month, and maybe

976
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 1: in his mind he's like, yeah, she doesn't really need that.

977
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: So maybe part of what would help would be being

978
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: really really specific about what you need and like literally

979
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: giving him dates, like I need you to not travel

980
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: between this state and this state, perhaps even saying is

981
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,720
Speaker 1: there someone at work? So I've done this and maybe

982
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: like this is overstepping, but I've even like emailed his

983
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: scheduler politely like, oh, could I please see the July

984
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: call schedule because I'd like to know. So can you

985
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: go you know, beyond him and say, oh, would you

986
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: like me to like let your secretary or scheduler know that,

987
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: like you need to be home between X date and

988
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,320
Speaker 1: X date, So being really really specific. And I also

989
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 1: think that saying like I don't want to deal with

990
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 1: the mental load like to many police mail partners, like

991
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: they may not know what that load that you're talking

992
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: about is necessarily, so it's harder for them to know

993
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 1: what you mean. So you could literally make a specific

994
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: list in an email, be like, I need you to

995
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: handle all doctor's appointments, all drop offs, all X y

996
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: Z during this date to the state, and also invite

997
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: him to let you know does that work for you,

998
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: because if not, maybe maybe you actually maybe you can't.

999
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: You know, maybe he's like, actually, you know what, I

1000
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: don't think I can step up for that. I can

1001
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: do this part of it, but you actually probably just

1002
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 1: need to have two caregivers, which I guess you know,

1003
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: that's not the choice I would want my husband to make.

1004
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: But if if that's if that's it, then better that

1005
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: than it all landing on you at the last minute

1006
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: when you're really not able to deal with it. So yeah,

1007
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: I would say asking for really specifically what you need,

1008
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: also making sure that you're you're not over reacting, because

1009
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 1: I like, at least I'm speaking myself, like I'll be like,

1010
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 1: we have to add the airport nine hours before the flight.

1011
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: Like sometimes I do go like a step I get

1012
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: stressed about something, so I go a step beyond and

1013
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: that allows my husband to sort of blow off all

1014
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: of it because I've gone extra, do you know what

1015
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: I mean? So making sure you're asking truly for what

1016
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: you do need and being very specific about what it is. Yeah,

1017
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: I think that would be that would be maybe an

1018
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: improvement for next time. But you'll have to You'll have

1019
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: to let us know. And I also think this is

1020
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 1: one that our readers and listeners, we welcome your thoughts

1021
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, just so how you you're busy times,

1022
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: especially if you are, you know, often the one who's

1023
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: doing maybe more of that kid and home stuff and

1024
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: you'd like to specifically not do it for a short

1025
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: period of time you're feeling rather stressed about things, as

1026
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 1: the case might be, all right, So we welcome your

1027
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: feedback on that. And are we doing our Love of

1028
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:13,760
Speaker 1: the week afterwards? Are wed? Oh? I think I think sure,

1029
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 1: Let's do our Love of the week after Let's close

1030
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: with the Love of the week. We can always ask

1031
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: our guests for the love of the week as well,

1032
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: but just in case that I am not there during

1033
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: the recording segment, I would say my love of the

1034
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: week this week is my Gap Pure Body leggings because

1035
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 1: I was looking for some really good so you know,

1036
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: like a lot of the leggings these days, they do

1037
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: a really good job like sucking you in and like

1038
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: being really high rise and stuff, and they look kind

1039
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: of nice when you're working out and you feel, well,

1040
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:41,439
Speaker 1: that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about

1041
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 1: like the leggings that you want to put on that

1042
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 1: are like so soft and comfortable and like completely non constricting.

1043
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: Because I think I mentioned previously that I was on

1044
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: a quest to find some better lounge whear well, the

1045
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: Gap Pure Body leggings are about twenty bucks and are

1046
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: perfect for this, and I'm about to order like two

1047
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: more pairs because i want to have a little stockpile.

1048
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,720
Speaker 1: They do seem to want pretty well. They're made of modal,

1049
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: which is like I guess bamboo generated with some spandex

1050
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: and them, and they're just they're so light and dreamy.

1051
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: I love them. That's cool. I've been One of the

1052
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: things I've been I've been loving is I don't know

1053
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 1: if I I mean, I only have one little girl,

1054
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: so uh my, my knowledge of like little girl clothing

1055
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: has has only sort of recently developed in the sense

1056
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: of I'm not, you know, the fashionate stuff, but I've

1057
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: been happy to see how much little girl clothing is

1058
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: like structured for playing now that you know, my my

1059
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 1: daughter loves these skirts and all that, but so many

1060
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: of them either come with little shorts inside or it's

1061
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 1: just very easy to like buy little bike shorts that

1062
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: go you know, under the short under their dresses. And

1063
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: I don't recall that being something I ever like experienced

1064
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 1: growing up, Like that wasn't you know, something we had

1065
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: a lot of. And and so it's good that you

1066
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 1: can both be this like flouncy little girl in the

1067
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: skirts and you know, still be on the monkey bars

1068
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: without showing everyone your underwear. So it's a great sports

1069
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: or arts are aws like, Yeah, no good. So that's

1070
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: that's my love of the week. All right, Well, this

1071
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: has been best of both worlds. Fascinatingly mixed episode. All

1072
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff going on in this one. But we'll

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00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: be back next week with more on making work and

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00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 1: life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me

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00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore

1076
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 1: Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at

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00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 1: Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of

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00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more

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00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 1: on making work and life work together.