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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Hi, Kate, Hey, Paul, how are you?

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Speaker 3: I am doing good. How are you doing today?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I had a interview with a forensic

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Speaker 1: chemist who specializes in arsons, and I found it really fascinating.

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Speaker 1: And at the end of it, I thought, I often

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Speaker 1: think of this with my experts. I thought my dad

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Speaker 1: would really like this woman. And then I started thinking

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Speaker 1: my dad would really like Paul holes And I think,

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Speaker 1: you guys, I mean that's a huge compliment, because my

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Speaker 1: dad was picky. I mean he was you know, he

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Speaker 1: encountered a lot of people, and I think he would

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Speaker 1: have really liked talking with you, particularly about cold cases.

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Speaker 1: You know, we talk about how involved he was with

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Speaker 1: the actual innocence clinic that he started before he died

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and five, and I think he really

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Speaker 1: would have liked you. You both had a real fascination

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Speaker 1: with cases that needed to be closed but hadn't been,

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Speaker 1: and maybe you could be the person to come in

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Speaker 1: and do it. And I am so scared of those

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Speaker 1: investigations like a nice tidy ending, and and you are

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Speaker 1: happy to look into these cases that you know, like

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Speaker 1: the Golden State killer, that are just they seem unsolvable.

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Speaker 1: So that's why we're different. I think my dad would

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Speaker 1: have just thought you were great and would have loved

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Speaker 1: to sit down and have a beer or some sort

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Speaker 1: of whisky something with you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, with the unsolved, it's all about developing theories.

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Speaker 2: And that's where the discussion with your dad would be fascinating,

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Speaker 2: because now it's like you don't know what the ending

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Speaker 2: is and it's a matter of Okay, these are the facts,

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Speaker 2: these are the suspicions, you know, these are the leads,

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Speaker 2: this is the forensic evidence, you know, and how do

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Speaker 2: we go from here? And for me, I'm probably a

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Speaker 2: little bit on the weird side, it's all about the

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Speaker 2: hunt and even after, like with the Golden State Killer,

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Speaker 2: you know, once DiAngelo was caught, the hunt was over,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm not like continuing to be engaged to

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Speaker 2: learn everything I can about DiAngelo. And then we've seen

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Speaker 2: this past summer Long Island serial killer get solved. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it's sort of like, Okay, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 2: doing a deep dive on the you know, suspect in

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Speaker 2: that case right now. For me, it is the hunt.

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Speaker 2: It is solving the case. It's getting the families the answers,

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Speaker 2: it's getting justice for the victims. And then I just

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Speaker 2: kind of move.

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Speaker 1: On, and you know what's funny and this is something

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Speaker 1: we should talk about at a different time. Also, is

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Speaker 1: I am someone who when I watch a lot of

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Speaker 1: Agatha Christie and I read a lot of Agatha Christie,

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Speaker 1: but I always find out who did it before I'm

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Speaker 1: finished with the book or the movie. Always I always look,

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Speaker 1: you know why, I know because I like to know

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Speaker 1: the little pieces and I like to see them come together.

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Speaker 1: And even when I know at the very end, I

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Speaker 1: love rewatching them over and over again so that I

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Speaker 1: could see every little piece that's put together. I guess

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Speaker 1: it's not the hunt for me. It's like seeing the

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Speaker 1: jigsaw and the brilliance of how these things come together.

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Speaker 1: And in real life cases, I think it's interesting to

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Speaker 1: see the way society react acted the way the witnesses acted.

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Speaker 1: You know, can I kind of predict what happens before

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Speaker 1: I get to the end of the research document?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? You know.

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Speaker 2: So are you the type of person that when you

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Speaker 2: buy a new new novel, you read the last chapter first?

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Speaker 1: I do I or a google one? I know, so

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Speaker 1: sad to say. I know, I don't like surprises, and

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Speaker 1: I like spooky and scary, but I don't like surprises

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Speaker 1: and mysteries. I like to see them unravel and how

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Speaker 1: they're put together. I don't now, it's just it's weird.

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Speaker 1: So that's why we work well together, I think.

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Speaker 2: You know, when you think about it, it's sort of

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Speaker 2: like like with buried bones. You are going after these

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Speaker 2: historic cases oftentimes there is an answer, and you know,

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Speaker 2: for me, I'm going after old cases where there is

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Speaker 2: no answer. So I'm kind of forward looking and you

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Speaker 2: are backwards looking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, with this case that we're

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Speaker 1: going to be talking about now, it's set in Ohio

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Speaker 1: in the year nineteen hundred. This is a case where

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Speaker 1: the police really believe it's a serial killer working and

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Speaker 1: it's a string of unsolved murders. And for me, I

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Speaker 1: think this is the first time that really you can

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Speaker 1: draw on the Golden State Killer case on how do

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Speaker 1: you make the connections based on circumstances, witnesses? How with

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Speaker 1: very little information forensically, how are we able to look

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Speaker 1: and say, boy, this does make sense that one person

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Speaker 1: committed all of these crimes or oh, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if this makes sense. We've done this with the Nashville case,

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Speaker 1: We've done this a couple of other times, but this

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Speaker 1: really feels like they really could be related. But we'll

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Speaker 1: have to see what you think.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to hearing about it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's set the scene. So this is set in,

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Speaker 1: as I said, nineteen hundred, Dayton, Ohio. When we talk

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Speaker 1: about these areas, we want to talk about the time

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Speaker 1: period and we want to talk about you know, what

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Speaker 1: do we It's like when any police officer would want

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Speaker 1: to know when you start an investigation. You want to

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Speaker 1: know where you are, what's the suspect pool, Like, who

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Speaker 1: are the people around, what's the demographic? So I want

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Speaker 1: to give you that information. This is a really fast

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Speaker 1: growing city. There's a trolley system that people use, there's

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Speaker 1: lots of factories that are popping up, lots of work

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Speaker 1: men and women coming in and out all the time.

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Speaker 1: But the city is growing so quickly that there are

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Speaker 1: not enough street lights to light the streets to keep

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Speaker 1: people safe, and there is a smaller police force than

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Speaker 1: a city this size should have. So already this is

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Speaker 1: a great situation for criminals because we're going to assume

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a higher crime for a city

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Speaker 1: that's not quite used to it because they're exploding with

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Speaker 1: so many people coming in.

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Speaker 2: Well, what kind of industry is this? Like a steel town?

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Speaker 2: Is this a car town?

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Speaker 1: Cars? So in the early nineteen hundreds, there are at

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Speaker 1: least ten separate factories that are turning out dozens of

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Speaker 1: models of cars. I know that's not the only industry,

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Speaker 1: but it gives you a little bit of an idea

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Speaker 1: of you know, the kind of workers who would have

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Speaker 1: been coming in, And I.

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Speaker 2: Would imagine that these workers are probably residents of Dayton.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's not like, at least for my perception,

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Speaker 2: that these car factories would be bringing in you know,

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Speaker 2: large kind of transient workers for seasonal work. This would

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Speaker 2: be year round work. And residents are basically the ones

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Speaker 2: that staff these factories.

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Speaker 3: So that that's.

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Speaker 2: Important to me, you know, is what kind of transient

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Speaker 2: population do we have when I start assessing potential suspect pools. Now,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't mean there isn't a transient population in Dayton

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Speaker 2: during this period of time, but it sounds like this

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Speaker 2: is really you know, the residents there are long term

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Speaker 2: occupants of this area.

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Speaker 1: That's the impression I have too. But we're going to

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Speaker 1: really home in on one particular area because these crimes

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Speaker 1: span a decade, but they all are similar emos, and

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Speaker 1: they all take place within a few blocks of a

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Speaker 1: particular trolley stop. And the trolley stop as at McCabe Park,

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Speaker 1: and at this time, the reputation of this park was

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Speaker 1: that it had a lot of unsavory characters there and

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Speaker 1: a big CD reputation. So when these murders happen from

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundred till nineteen oh nine nineteen ten, this section

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Speaker 1: of the street where the trolley had stopped is considered

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Speaker 1: a dangerous place for girls, and it was known as

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Speaker 1: the death lane. So now you know why this is

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Speaker 1: unsolved because already we're talking about a place where people

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Speaker 1: are disappearing, women are disappearing, and young girls, this whole

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Speaker 1: area where they're already unsavory characters around. So it's not

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Speaker 1: going to be as easy as trying to take one

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Speaker 1: suspect that we know and kind of pinim on all

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Speaker 1: of these different murders. It's a little bit more like,

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Speaker 1: does this sound like this fits? Knowing what you know

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Speaker 1: about criminal profiling, But already we're at a disadvantage with

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Speaker 1: this stinking park right.

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Speaker 2: Here right, you know, and this is not uncommon. You know,

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Speaker 2: where we see many series happen is oftentimes in high

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Speaker 2: crime or higher risk environments, and that does open up

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Speaker 2: potential suspect pool. It also does make it difficult because

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Speaker 2: you may have regulars that are in this particular area,

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Speaker 2: regulars that are committing crime, and all of them are

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Speaker 2: potential you know, when you evaluate them from afar, they

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Speaker 2: potentially have red flags where you go, oh, I need

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Speaker 2: to dig into that person a little bit more. But

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Speaker 2: when you have a whole bunch of people you need

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Speaker 2: to dig into. Your efforts get diluted, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I remember investigating, you know, one jurisdiction, Golden State Killer.

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Speaker 2: Every rock I turned over I found just cockroaches and

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Speaker 2: suspects just fleeing all over the place. And it gets

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Speaker 2: to where it's like, well, how do I sort this out?

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Speaker 2: You know, especially if there is no DNA or fingerprint

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Speaker 2: evidence that could help identify one particular individual.

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Speaker 1: And this is a big mystery. Boy, there's very little

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Speaker 1: forensic evidence for us to work with, but it's very interesting.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with the first case, which in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways is the most sad for me. This

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Speaker 1: is mid October of the year nineteen hundred. There's a

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Speaker 1: family called the Lance family and they are having a

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Speaker 1: birthday party for a member of the family. They invite

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Speaker 1: a lot of people over and the party starts at

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Speaker 1: eight pm, and it's dark already. So while the adults

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Speaker 1: are having fun and drinking and having a good time,

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Speaker 1: there's a little girl named Ada, who is the Lance's

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Speaker 1: eleven year old daughter. She decides to sneak out into

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Speaker 1: the backyard. So party starts at eight The adults don't

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Speaker 1: notice that she's gone from the house until two hours later.

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Speaker 1: Lots of frantic searching, as you probably could guess, and

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Speaker 1: finally they make their way back to an outhouse at

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Speaker 1: the back of their property. And they have a pretty

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Speaker 1: big property surrounded by a fence, but there's an open

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Speaker 1: latch anybody could access this. They go to the outhouse

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Speaker 1: and they find her body had been stuffed down the

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Speaker 1: whole of the outhouse. They didn't know she was gone

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Speaker 1: until ten, so two hours, but they didn't find her

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Speaker 1: until an hour and a half after that. So there's

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Speaker 1: eight pm when the party started, and everyone knew she

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Speaker 1: was there until eleven thirty that night when she's discovered.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, the adults are occupied, yep. You know this

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Speaker 2: is a kin to the kids, you know, current day

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Speaker 2: where they slip out into the backyard where there's a pool,

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Speaker 2: you know, and they're not seen.

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Speaker 3: For hours here. You know.

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Speaker 2: The questions that I have is, okay, so you have

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Speaker 2: a lot of adults inside the house, Ada slips out

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Speaker 2: into the backyard. It's a fenced in backyard. You indicate

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Speaker 2: it's a larger property. Do we know what this property

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Speaker 2: backs up to? Is it forested? Are there railroad tracks.

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Speaker 2: Is there anything that would indicate why somebody might be

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Speaker 2: just lurking out there and Ada was a victim of opportunity,

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Speaker 2: or is there somebody who is drawn to the location

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Speaker 2: because of the party and happens to see Ada go

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Speaker 2: into the backyard and is able to slip out themselves

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Speaker 2: from the party and victimize Ata.

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Speaker 1: My understanding is that it's at residence neighborhood, but again

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Speaker 1: it's pretty close to that park, so there are all

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Speaker 1: kinds of people sort of sneaking around who probably would

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Speaker 1: have noticed a little girl in the backyard kind of

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Speaker 1: on her own, and I don't know why she went

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Speaker 1: out there, but where the outhouse was. There's an author

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Speaker 1: who I'll talk about later who is a relative of

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Speaker 1: one of our future victims, and he wrote a book

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Speaker 1: about this and he described it as if you stood

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Speaker 1: on the back porch with a lantern in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the night, and you had a bright lantern, you

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Speaker 1: still wouldn't be able to see the outhouse. So it's

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Speaker 1: really far back and multiple entries I think for a

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Speaker 1: way to get into the yard, so it would not

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Speaker 1: have been hard for somebody to slip in. And this

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Speaker 1: is why eventually the police clear everybody at the party

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Speaker 1: because the neighborhood wasn't CD, but the park was drawing

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Speaker 1: ced people and it was just a block or two

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Speaker 1: from the park.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the way I'm kind of assessing this case

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Speaker 2: initially going in, if I'm responding out, is I've got

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Speaker 2: three bins of suspects. I've got people who are attending

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Speaker 2: the party who would have seen Ada and possibly seen

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Speaker 2: Aida isolate herself. Then you have the neighbors, you know,

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Speaker 2: the party, the noise from the party could have drawn

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Speaker 2: their attention. They're paying attention, and again somebody that decides

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Speaker 2: to lurk or is able to see Aida isolate herself.

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Speaker 2: Then you have the higher risk suspect pool the people

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Speaker 2: that are in the park and the fact that there's

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Speaker 2: this outhouse out there, is this something that would draw

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming these are people in the park and some

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Speaker 2: of them may be taking advantage of the outhouse just

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Speaker 2: to use the bathroom, and they happen to be going

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Speaker 2: to that yard on a periodic basis and then happen

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Speaker 2: to stumble across Aida being out there, or you know,

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Speaker 2: of course, they also could be hearing the commotion of

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Speaker 2: the party. And going, oh, what's going on, let's go

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Speaker 2: check it out, and then there's eighta out there in

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Speaker 2: the backyard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Crime of opportunity, I guess. Let's talk about her

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Speaker 1: injuries and what caused her death. Her body is terribly mutilated.

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Speaker 1: According to the police. She has bruises and cuts all

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Speaker 1: over her face. She has a two inch gash on

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Speaker 1: her left side of her face that seems to have

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Speaker 1: been caused by a cane or a club. Her clothes

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Speaker 1: were torn to shreds, and she had been sexually assaulted.

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Speaker 1: Sexual assaults have happened in I think all of these cases.

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Speaker 1: It's ultimately determined that she was strangled and then she

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Speaker 1: was shoved headfirst into a fifteen inch hole inside the outhouse,

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Speaker 1: so that probably cost some of the injuries on her

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Speaker 1: face too. But ultimately the important part is that she

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Speaker 1: was strangled, she was sexually assaulted, and it just sounds

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Speaker 1: like brutalized.

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Speaker 2: Part of the evaluation of her injuries. I mean, she's

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Speaker 2: she's an eleven year old girl. She's not able to

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Speaker 2: put up much resistance to an adult male. But if

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Speaker 2: she did resist, do some of these injuries indicate that

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Speaker 2: they're defensive in nature. And then the offender is just

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Speaker 2: physically overpowering her in order to get her under control.

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Speaker 2: The tearing of the clothes off. That is interesting, you know,

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Speaker 2: because I've had both, you know, sexually related homicides in

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Speaker 2: which the offender pulls clothes off as well as cuts

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Speaker 2: clothes off. But there are occasions where the offender purposely

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Speaker 2: tears clothes off, and this is what the offender likes

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Speaker 2: to do. This is part of their fantasy. So it

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Speaker 2: all just kind of depends on, you know, the pattern

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Speaker 2: that I would be seeing if there were really good

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Speaker 2: crime scene photos. But I key in on that tearing.

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Speaker 2: You know that in many ways, is this almost like

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Speaker 2: this frenzied act because most certainly right now, absent more information.

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming I've got an adult male that is attacking Ada,

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Speaker 2: and there's no reason to have to tear her clothes off.

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Speaker 2: He could completely overpower her and pull her clothes off.

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Speaker 3: And some of these clothes are not easy to tear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so that is part of why take the

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Speaker 2: extra effort.

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Speaker 1: Well, keep all of that in mind, as I know

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Speaker 1: you will as we move forward through these cases. But

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Speaker 1: let's wrap up Ada's They arrest five men in connection

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Speaker 1: with the crime. These are guys who have just been around.

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Speaker 1: They knew that they were sort of sleazy. They were

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Speaker 1: in the vicinity. There were witnesses who said they were

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Speaker 1: kind of around, as were a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: this neighborhood. But there was a man named Harrison Blessing.

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Speaker 1: He was eighteen years old, and they got a tip

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Speaker 1: from somebody who lived in his home, a tenant who

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Speaker 1: said that Blessing had confessed to killing Ada to at

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Speaker 1: least two people. But we don't know if that's true,

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Speaker 1: and this is from a you know, the source that

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Speaker 1: we had to use was a couple of newspaper articles,

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Speaker 1: and when you follow up with these newspaper articles, nothing

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Speaker 1: ever came of this arrest. He was arrested and then

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Speaker 1: he was released. Nobody was ever charged with So if

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Speaker 1: that was true, it wasn't enough to hold any water.

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Speaker 1: And Harrison Blessing just sort of drops off because there

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Speaker 1: wasn't enough evidence against him, and Ada's case goes cold

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Speaker 1: in nineteen hundred and.

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Speaker 2: With Blessing and these you know, he's confessing to others

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Speaker 2: in these unsolved cases. This is a frequent occurrence. And

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Speaker 2: the interesting thing is is that you will have guys

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Speaker 2: out there who are just trying to impress others. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's the street cred and we typically see it like

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Speaker 2: within the the methamphetamine groups, you know, the cranksters out

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Speaker 2: there where you know, somebody, you know, some horrific crime

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Speaker 2: occurs in the area and then they're like, well, I

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Speaker 2: did it because they just want that street credibility. And

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Speaker 2: then it just kind of, you know, the rumor mill

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Speaker 2: just goes wild, and then pretty soon somebody's calling in

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Speaker 2: that tip and it happens over and over again. So

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Speaker 2: right now, I can't put much weight on Blessing's confession,

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Speaker 2: especially considering that they weren't able to move forward back

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Speaker 2: in the day on that, and the.

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Speaker 1: Police in Dayton over the next ten years feel very

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Speaker 1: strongly that the cases we're about to discuss are all connected.

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Speaker 1: And Harrison Blessing never comes up again. So I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: they've kept him and they're kind of checking in on him.

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Speaker 1: But this is what's unusual to me, and it won't

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Speaker 1: be unusual to you. I think, based on the Golden

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Speaker 1: State Killer, nothing happens again for six years. Things happen, obviously,

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Speaker 1: people are murdered, people are sexually assaulted, but not this

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Speaker 1: motive or not this sort of circumstance doesn't happen until

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Speaker 1: nineteen o six. Is that surprising I'm assuming not?

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Speaker 2: No, you know, there, I think the average layperson assumes

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Speaker 2: that a serial predator is just on this regular clock

350
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Speaker 2: and goes out and kills or rapes, sexually assaults, you know,

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Speaker 2: on this very periodic basis.

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Speaker 3: And some some offenders do do that, you know, and

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Speaker 3: it's not.

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Speaker 2: Necessarily you know, every other day, you know, it's not

355
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Speaker 2: that type of pattern, but it's there's a certain frequency

356
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Speaker 2: in which they're going out. But then you also see

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Speaker 2: offenders who strike out in clusters. So you'll see, you know,

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Speaker 2: one case and then a pause, and then maybe three

359
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 2: cases very close together, and then another pause. And there

360
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Speaker 2: are offenders that when they go out and commit crimes,

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Speaker 2: it's because they've got certain stressors that are occurring in

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Speaker 2: their personal life that somehow, some way causes them to

363
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Speaker 2: want to go out and commit to this type of crime.

364
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Speaker 2: There's also just sheer opportunity things come up in these offenders'

365
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Speaker 2: personal life, you know, that prevent them from going out

366
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Speaker 2: of committing a crime. And when all said in those

367
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 2: things that were preventing them subside. Then they go out

368
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Speaker 2: and they may commit a cluster of crimes because they've

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Speaker 2: been waiting, they've been jumping at the bit in order

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Speaker 2: to go and commit the crimes. They've been fantasizing about it.

371
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Speaker 2: So it really varies. So in this case, we have

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Speaker 2: atus case and then a six year gap, and then

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Speaker 2: you're going to start telling me about what I'm assuming

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Speaker 2: is a similar type case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so after Ada's case goes cold, there is a

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Speaker 1: twenty year old woman named Donna Gilman. So now let's

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Speaker 1: just talk about the ages. So we have Ada who's eleven.

378
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Speaker 1: We have Donna, and this is a very similar circumstance.

379
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Speaker 1: We have Donna who's twenty. Does that surprise you if

380
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Speaker 1: this is the same person.

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Speaker 3: No, not at all.

382
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Speaker 2: And this again is something that occurs frequently within a

383
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Speaker 2: series where some offenders are a little bit more particular

384
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Speaker 2: about the age, gender looks of a victim. Other offenders aren't.

385
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Speaker 2: And when you start talking about let's say we have

386
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Speaker 2: a twenty year old female and adult female and an

387
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,160
Speaker 2: eleven year old girl either pre pubescent or pubescent, this

388
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,880
Speaker 2: is where we get into this phenomenon what we call

389
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Speaker 2: crossover a fence where now an offender is willing to

390
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 2: victimize individuals that have different age, look, gender characteristics. And

391
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 2: this is much more common than what you would think.

392
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Speaker 2: Oftentimes it's a victim of opportunity, like Ada was a

393
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Speaker 2: victim of opportunity. This particular offender may not prefer to

394
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Speaker 2: have a child as a victim, but will victimize a

395
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Speaker 2: child if the opportunity presents itself, or it's the opposite,

396
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 2: whereas this offender prefers is a preferential or situational child

397
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 2: molester if you will, or child killer.

398
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 3: And then in this.

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00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 2: Recent case with a twenty year old, now she's the

400
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Speaker 2: victim of opportunity. So it happens all the time.

401
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 1: I think you're right about this because I know all

402
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: the information in you don't. And I think the oldest

403
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,919
Speaker 1: victim is they said, early twenties, okay, And there are

404
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 1: younger victims than this.

405
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Speaker 2: Well, and part of this and this is where you

406
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,880
Speaker 2: know I got this. You know, I have a mentor

407
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 2: on the behavioral side, the Sharon Hagan, who is a

408
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: California DOJ profiler, and she's long retired now but brilliant

409
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 2: in terms of assessing a criminal behavior and she flat

410
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 2: out told me, Paul. Oftentimes the offender makes up his

411
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 2: mind to attack a victim when he sees that victim

412
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 2: from Afar, and so now has a certain mental image

413
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: of who that victim is. But when gets closer finds out,

414
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 2: oh that is that is not a twenty year old woman,

415
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 2: that's an eleven year old girl. But has already made

416
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 2: up that mindset that he's going to pursue the attack.

417
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 2: And so, like an Ada's case, you know it may

418
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Speaker 2: be from Afar. Let's say somebody's on the other side

419
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 2: of the fence and sees from Afar.

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Speaker 3: You know, a girl.

421
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 2: I don't know how she's dressed, if she's got a

422
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 2: dress on or whatever, but in his mind is like,

423
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 2: this is a sixteen year old girl, or this is

424
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 2: a twenty year old girl, and goes and proceeds to

425
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: attack and finds out no, we are dealing with a

426
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 2: child here, but he doesn't care at that point.

427
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: I'll show you a picture of Ada. It's not a

428
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: good picture, but maybe it'll give you some more information

429
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 1: before we go on and talk about Donna. So the

430
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: one in the middle, So, I mean, just typical curly

431
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 1: haired girl. But we don't know how tall she is.

432
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's a party in nineteen hundred. She's got

433
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Speaker 1: to be wearing a dress, right, So maybe he did

434
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: mistake her. If she's taller, maybe he did mistake her

435
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: for somebody who is a little She is the youngest victim,

436
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that. But we have another victim near

437
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,719
Speaker 1: the end who is not much older than this. So

438
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 1: I really buy into your theory. Here it's dark, he

439
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: can't see anything. Who knows? Who knows? Well, let's get

440
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: back into Donna. So she is twenty years old and

441
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 1: she is coming home from work, and she was last

442
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: seen on the trolley line that she took every single

443
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 1: day Monday through Friday. But the trolley that stops near

444
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: this park that we've been talking about and near Ada's

445
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: house doesn't take her all the way to her house.

446
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: She has a long walk when she gets off the

447
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: stop along this poorly lit pathway to get to her house,

448
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: but she never makes it there. Her family's panicking, but

449
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: she gets close, it sounds like because her brother the

450
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 1: next morning finds her body about two hundred feet away

451
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: from the family house in a weedy lot right across

452
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,719
Speaker 1: the street. So now we've got two murders, a girl

453
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 1: and then a woman. But in the dark, we don't

454
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: know how different age wise they might have looked. And

455
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: they both have been assaulted. It sounds like and dumped

456
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: very close to where they live, so this is right.

457
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: It sounds like she was almost on her doorstep and

458
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: she got snatched. What do you think.

459
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 2: Do you have any information in terms of what was

460
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 2: done to her, her injuries, any other behaviors by the offender.

461
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, let me just give you all of the

462
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: physical stuff. The coroner said that her next shows signs

463
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: of strangulation. She has cuts and bruises on her face,

464
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 1: clothing torn to shreds, underwear is missing, and of course

465
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: there are signs that she was sexually assaulted, and there

466
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: were some odd things here to me. They gave a

467
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: time of death based on rigor mortis, and they said

468
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 1: that she was described as damp, damp on clothing, not muddy.

469
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: So the reason I bring this up is because there

470
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: was a big rain the night before and her clothing

471
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 1: wasn't muddy. She was a little damp. So the police

472
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: are beginning to think that this happened somewhere else, because

473
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: if it had happened right here in this weedy area.

474
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 1: She would have been muddy. And when she her arm

475
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 1: is sticking straight up in the air. So they estimated

476
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: her time of death at around six point thirty the

477
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: night before, precisely when she was supposed to be home.

478
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 3: Her arm is sticking straight up in the air.

479
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: Yes, she's described as being damp, and her arm was rigid,

480
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 1: sticking straight up.

481
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 2: When limbs enter into rigor, and it's a slow process.

482
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: It starts with the smaller muscles and then goes to

483
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 2: the bigger muscles. It's not like they move as these

484
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: muscles stiffen up. So her arm being in a position

485
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: that does not sound like it would naturally be laying

486
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 2: if she were dead and entering rigor would suggest to

487
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 2: me that she entered rigor and then was moved, you know,

488
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: and I would need to evaluate so much more, you know.

489
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 2: Part of evaluating, you know, did the victim lay after

490
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: being deceased at a location for a period of time

491
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 2: and then was moved either flipped over or moved to

492
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: a different location, you know, part of rigor can provide

493
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 2: information on that.

494
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 3: Also, what is what we call.

495
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: Liver mortise lividity where blood you know, after the heart

496
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: stops pumping, the blood you know, goes towards gravity, and

497
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 2: then after it sits, if I'm laying on my back

498
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 2: and I die, all my blood is going to go

499
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: to my back, and you know, then my back will

500
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: look purple if it sets. If I'm in that position,

501
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 2: laying on my back for a long enough period of

502
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 2: time and then somebody flips me over, the lividity won't change.

503
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 2: And so that's how I would be able to tell, Oh,

504
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: this person was moved after they had laid in a

505
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 2: location for a period of time. So Donna's arm being

506
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 2: sticking straight up sounds like, yeah, she was killed and

507
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 2: laid in a certain position. Body was in a certain

508
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: position for a period of time rigor formed, and then

509
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: she was moved. It doesn't mean a distance. It could

510
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 2: just be flipped over and then found, probably relatively quickly

511
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: after that. But there's so much more I'd have to evaluate.

512
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: But that's what I'm thinking right now.

513
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: What about the muddy clothing part that they were talking

514
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: about the fact that her clothing wasn't really muddy and

515
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: if there had been some big sexual assault and murder,

516
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 1: that her clothes would have been filthy because the area

517
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: surrounding her was filthy from the rain.

518
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: That could be a very legitimate observation. I'm assuming that

519
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 2: you know, her body is laying, You've got exposed soil,

520
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: and so she's being assaulted in that location, and I

521
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 2: would agree, I would expect there to be a lot

522
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: of soil transfer, mud transfer onto her clothes. Now, is

523
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 2: it possible that she was assaulted, you know, ten feet

524
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 2: away on grass and then drug to a more hidden

525
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 2: location where now you have you know, more exposed soil

526
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: that the original investigators are.

527
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 3: Keying in on.

528
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 2: Or she could have been assaulted on you know, pavement

529
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 2: or something like that, and then her body is pulled

530
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: back to hide it a little bit later.

531
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: So the sexual assault, the strangulation, and the ripped clothing.

532
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: Are those three things enough, despite the fact that these

533
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: victims are nine years apart and six years in a

534
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: time span apart, Is that enough so far to say

535
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: could be related?

536
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 3: Oh for sure?

537
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, especially the torn clothing, and you know

538
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: there there are aspects to the tearing. Some offenders will

539
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: have a desire to do take the clothing off in

540
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 2: a certain way, and so part of the evaluation would

541
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: be taking a look at Ada's clothing and how they

542
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: were torn off versus Donna's clothing and how they were

543
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: torn off, and if there is overlap with something unusual, then.

544
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 3: That would further tie these two cases together.

545
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: However, right now, I would say, you know, sexual assault

546
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: is strangulation. You know that's common when you are dealing

547
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 2: with these types of victims. If the offender tore the

548
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: clothing off in a particular way in both instances, then

549
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: that would increase my confidence that these two cases are related,

550
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: even though we have such a dramatic age difference between

551
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:48,959
Speaker 2: the two victims.

552
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's talk about two circumstances that the police

553
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: look into that seem a little off the wall. Well

554
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: maybe not. One is There's a tip that comes in

555
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: about a guy named Dvid Curtis, who's been nicknamed baby Dave,

556
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: and he is an eccentric newspaper vendor, and there's just

557
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: a tip that says somebody said, look at him for

558
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: Donna's murder. And he quickly confesses. So he said that

559
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: he followed Donna on her commute home, which she did,

560
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: you know, every day, was very regular, and he sprang

561
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: upon her and fastened his fingers in her throat, ultimately

562
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: strangling her to death. But he later recants and says

563
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: that he was coursed, which we know what that means

564
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: by investigators, and then he's released and never charged and

565
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: never connected to anything.

566
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's not specific enough information that would cause

567
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: me to say, yes, this guy knows things that only

568
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: the killer would know it. And I would imagine if

569
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: there is any press that the cause of death was

570
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: very possibly published in the newspaper during this timeframe.

571
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. One of the things that the police key

572
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: in on is there's a neighbor named Robert Keys who

573
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: said he heard sounds of a struggle coming from inside

574
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: Donna's home, inside the Gilman home on the night that

575
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: Donna died, and this leads the police to arrest her mother,

576
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: her older sister, and her brother who is the one

577
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: who found her across the way, you know, in the

578
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: weeded lot, in connection with the crime.

579
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

580
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: One thing that the corner found when they checked under

581
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: Donna's nails was a piece of a nail cuticle that

582
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: he presumed was from the attacker. It wasn't one of

583
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: Donna's cuticles. The corner says that this piece of cuticle

584
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: belongs to a white male. Is that possible to know

585
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: that in nineteen hundred, to know the race of somebody

586
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: based on their cuticle? Okay, it's such a you have

587
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,479
Speaker 1: a quizzical look on your face.

588
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 3: So there's a nail cuticle.

589
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: So I guess when I think about what the cuticle is,

590
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: I'm looking at like at the base of the fingernail.

591
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: I think it's like the soft When I think of cuticle,

592
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: I think of like from manicures. It's the little soft bit.

593
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: So it's flesh, I think.

594
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: But I don't know how they would just from a

595
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: visual appearance, be able to identify that as cutical.

596
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 3: Material versus you know, let's say, bald.

597
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: Up skin from Donna scratching the offender. Yeah, that's confusing me.

598
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: I'm skeptical that it's actual cutical material. I would say

599
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: possibly more likely, which we typically see in these types

600
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: of close encounters between the offender and the victim, is

601
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: skin being bald up underneath the fingernail. And I don't

602
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 2: think I would put any weight, based on my experience

603
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 2: and looking at this type of evidence, to be able

604
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: to determine race based on what would be present underneath

605
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: the fingernails of the victim.

606
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: Okay, So the rumor was that Donna's house was hostile,

607
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: even abusive, and at the time of her death, the mom,

608
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: even though people were saying she was abusive, was experiencing

609
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: really bad health, including a heart condition, And so the

610
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: police began saying to each other, and then the press

611
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: began saying, could this really happen? Did this woman really

612
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,959
Speaker 1: do this? Because she's not in physical shape to do it.

613
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: But the bigger deal was the police nobody could figure

614
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: out why this would have happened to begin with, and

615
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: they eventually drop all the charges. This is a common

616
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: theme in this episode, drop all the charges against the

617
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: Gilman family, and the mom actually dies shortly after that,

618
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: so it feels like they're grasping at straws with this

619
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: particular case.

620
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: This is typical even today in that most law enforcement

621
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: is unfamiliar with how to recognize that they potentially have

622
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: a sexually motivated defender and possibly somebody who's fantasy motivated

623
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: and cereal. You know, law enforcement is very good at

624
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 2: working crimes in which the victim and the offender know

625
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 2: each other, as in gang bang homicides or domestic violence.

626
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 3: Disputes.

627
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 2: But when you have the weird happen, you know this,

628
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: most law enforcement has never worked a serial predator case

629
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 2: and they don't know how to recognize it. And so

630
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: in this instance, where you have an adult woman who's

631
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: been you know, her body has been disposed of, her

632
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 2: clothes have been torn off, she's been sexually assaulted and strangled,

633
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: my initial assessment is I'm dealing with a fantasy motivated offender.

634
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: This is not a family member. This does not have

635
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: the hallmarks of something that is domestic in terms of

636
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 2: the types of violence that's being inflicted. So when the

637
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: original investigating agency is arresting the family, that informs me

638
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: about their experience in working these types of sexually motivated crimes,

639
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: which is basically, they don't have any.

640
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: And it's of course at the detriment to the family

641
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: members who are obviously upset about Donna being killed. And

642
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: now the police are grasping its straws. So this goes cold,

643
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: but the police have to turn their attention to another case.

644
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: So this is about a year later. So we've gone

645
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: from nineteen hundred with Ada to nineteen oh six with Donna,

646
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: and now we're in August of nineteen oh seven, and

647
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: these are three people who become victims all at the

648
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: same time. So this is a twenty something couple early twenties,

649
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: Anna Markowitz and Abe Cohen, and they are going into

650
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: a park called Lakeside Park, which is very close to

651
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: McCabe Park, and Anna's little sister Bertha came with them.

652
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: It is very dark outside. As the three of them

653
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: are wandering around this park, a stranger approaches from behind

654
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: and Abe swings around and the man hits him on

655
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: the back with a blunt object which is believed to

656
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: have been like a baton. And we remember that the

657
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: police thought that Ada had been attacked by maybe a cain,

658
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: could have been a baton, that's what they thought. One

659
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: of the marks on her face was so Abe was

660
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: hit on the back with a baton. As he confronts

661
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: the man, he has then shot two times in the stomach.

662
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: So now there's a gun involved. So let me finish

663
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: this bit of the story and you can tell me

664
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: what you think. So, now that he has shot Abe,

665
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: he turns to Anna and Bertha, and Bertha runs the

666
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: little sister. She escapes and runs towards a local home

667
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 1: and gets help. Soon a group of officers comes to

668
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: the park. Abe is dying on the ground, and in

669
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: the nearby bushes they find Anna. She has been beaten,

670
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: she's been sexually assaulted, and she's been strangled. She's got

671
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: scratches on her face, bruises as well as lots of

672
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 1: injuries from hits and her clothing it doesn't stay torn,

673
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: but has been pulled up violently above her waist. So, now,

674
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: what three people at the same time.

675
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the offender has a the risk to him

676
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 2: and he sees an essence a family, and he goes

677
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 2: after the biggest threat, the male. It's important that he

678
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: not only has a bludgeoning weapon with him, but he.

679
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 3: Also has a gun with him.

680
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: He uses the gun to neutralize the male and loses

681
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: control of the youngest girl, but then focuses his attention

682
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: on the adult female. And you know, this is where

683
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: he's He's assessed his risk and has decided, based on

684
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: the weapons he's equipped with, based on the location, that

685
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 2: he would be able to take control of these three people.

686
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: And so this is very telling to me that this

687
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: offender is very self confident, and the fact that the

688
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: offender has both a bludgeoning weapon as well as a firearm.

689
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: You know, he is out there looking to attack somebody

690
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: and he's waiting for the right opportunity.

691
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: Well, let me show you where this happened, because I

692
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: actually do have a photo of the crime scene. It's

693
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: a newspaper photo, but we'll take what we can get

694
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: on this show. It says the cross marks the spot.

695
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 3: Oh, I see the crust.

696
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, so picture of this at night. I mean there

697
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 1: is brush everywhere, trees everywhere.

698
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: There is no visibility, at least from the vantage point

699
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 2: of this photo.

700
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 3: There is such dense vegetation.

701
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: It happens to be occurring at a curve in the pathway,

702
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,919
Speaker 2: and I'm seeing somewhat of a bridge, like a little footbridge, yeah,

703
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: little creek there from two different vantage points. You know,

704
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: of course, the victims walking down this path, if the

705
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 2: offender is hiding in the brush, you know, his visibility

706
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 2: at night is zero. They would have no clue as

707
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 2: they walked past that there was somebody in this brush

708
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 2: and he could pop out right behind them and try

709
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: to hit abe in the head with the blunt force instrument.

710
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: But also it's taking a look from the offender's perspective,

711
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: is what is his vision how far can he see?

712
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 2: How many different people can he see walking on this path.

713
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 2: Chances are he's back there and he's just waiting for

714
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 2: somebody to come, or he's followed them and then has

715
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 2: somehow been able to just hide until he finds the

716
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,479
Speaker 2: right location, which this appears to be a very good

717
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 2: location in order to proceed with the attack I would

718
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 2: like in this guy, we have a type of offender,

719
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: the typical example of woman walking or running on a

720
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 2: trail and then somebody pops out of the bushes, grabs

721
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 2: and pulls back into the bushes. Right, This is to

722
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 2: me as like a trapdoor spider, So I call this

723
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 2: like the trapdoor offender. He's taking advantage of the environment

724
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 2: and just waiting for the prey to get close enough

725
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: in order to be able to grab and then pull

726
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 2: back into the dense forest or the dense brush to

727
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: prevent being seen so he can do what he he wants,

728
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: particularly with the adult female in this particular attack.

729
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 1: Does this now seem to teally with what happened with

730
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: Ada and what happened with Donna. What happens with Anna

731
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: and ab happens very close to Donna. But are these

732
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: different enough for you to say, oh, gosh, this doesn't

733
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 1: sound like the same guy.

734
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: No, I think when I start assessing these types of cases,

735
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 2: obviously there's a difference in terms of the number of

736
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 2: victims in this last case and the fact that there's

737
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,760
Speaker 2: a man present. But take a look at worthy offender

738
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 2: is focusing his attention. It's on the adult female. He

739
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: is isolating the adult female away, he is inflicting the

740
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: same types of injuries. He's killing that adult female in

741
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 2: the same way as Ada and Donna. The clothes are

742
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: at least moved out of the way in order to

743
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: accomplish a sexual assault. So his primary motive for this

744
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: attack was directed at the adult woman. And there is

745
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 2: enough overlap with the previous two cases that at least

746
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: there has to be consideration that this is the same offender,

747
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: particularly when you start talking about the geography of where

748
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: these attacks are occurring.

749
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: So after the police discover Anna and they take her

750
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: away in the corner, looks at her and you know,

751
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: says strangulation, sexual assault. Abe dies two days later from gunshots,

752
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: and he is no help in identifying whoever did this.

753
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: Bertha is somewhat She gives a very vague description understandably,

754
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: so she's completely traumatized. Her older sister has been murdered,

755
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: and she says she didn't get a good look at

756
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 1: his face, but she describes him as being between twenty

757
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: five and thirty tall, well groomed, wearing dark clothing. She

758
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: does not give a race. Would that be unusual in

759
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: the dark pitch dark trauma, trauma, trauma happening?

760
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 3: No, not at all.

761
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 2: And you know I've had cases where witnesses have described

762
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: the race and they're wrong. We just have to take

763
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: into account that Bertha. You know, she's giving a general description.

764
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 2: I wouldn't put much weight on the age, but you know,

765
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 2: you do have the height information, which if she's able

766
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: to relate the height of let's say the offender relative

767
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 2: to Abe, you know, that would be significant. If she's

768
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 2: able to basically say he was taller than Abe, you

769
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 2: know that gives me as an investigator at least some

770
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 2: confidence in that characteristic.

771
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: Okay, before long, the police arrests somebody and he is

772
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: a black man who's described as developmentally disabled. His name

773
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: is Leyton Hines, and there are two reasons why he

774
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 1: was arrested, tried, and convicted for this double murder. Nothing

775
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: about weapons, nothing about motive, nothing about alibi. Really it

776
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: is that he was spotted not far from the murder

777
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: scene and that he had confessed to killing Abe and Anna.

778
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: When he gets to court, he says, I did not

779
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: mean it. I got quote unquote coerced by the police.

780
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: I didn't do it. He's still convicted, but then later

781
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: he's exonerated and released because these murders don't stop and

782
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: the police are so convinced that this is a serial killer.

783
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in essence, he got lucky that the offender

784
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: continued to attack this Otherwise he likely would have spent

785
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 2: the rest of his life in prison or have received

786
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: the death penalty.

787
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 3: Who knows.

788
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the next thing happens. The next event happens

789
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: in late January nineteen oh nine. So here's the math.

790
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: I hate math, but I did it nine years after

791
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: Ada's murder, the first murder, and about a year and

792
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: some change from the last murder, which were ab and

793
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: Anna's murders. Now we go back down in age. So

794
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: this is a fifteen year old and her name is

795
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: Mary Froshner. And again all within the same few blocks

796
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: of these parks, in this trolley line, and you know

797
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: this road. She was headed to the bank where she

798
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: was sent to deposit from her family nine dollars. So

799
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 1: she leaves her home at six fifteen pm on this

800
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: late January night, and when she isn't home several hours later,

801
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: her stepfather and a few other acquaintances start looking for her,

802
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 1: and that night they find her body on a nearby estate,

803
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 1: a piece of land which isn't far from where the

804
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: previous victims have been discovered. Same thing. She had been

805
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted and strangled to death, clothes pulled apart, pushed up, everything.

806
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 3: You know.

807
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: This is where, you know, in terms of the circumstances,

808
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: you have a victim who is who is isolated, you know,

809
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: And that's that's an important aspect that I always take

810
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: a look at, you know, is what kind of risk

811
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 2: the offender has taken. And when victims are isolated, you know,

812
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 2: that lowers the offender's risk, and the offender is more

813
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 2: willing to attack when there's low risk to himself.

814
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 3: A similar type of victim.

815
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,439
Speaker 2: Even though you know you talked about a girl that's

816
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 2: fifteen years old. You know this offender so far, you know,

817
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: from eleven up until the early twenties. He seems to be,

818
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: you know, focusing in on that segment. Similar you know,

819
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 2: you got the sexual assault. In any sexual assault, you

820
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 2: typically see clothes awrye. You know, that's something unless there's

821
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,439
Speaker 2: something unusual that that's not necessarily a characteristic that can.

822
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 3: Be relied upon.

823
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 2: But are are they indicating in all these cases they're

824
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 2: saying indication of sexual assault? Are we just talking rape?

825
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: Are we seeing other types of sex acts occurring on

826
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: these victims?

827
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: Well? Out of propriety, I'm not sure how they would

828
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 1: be in the newspapers or any of the trial stuff.

829
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 1: They're just saying indications of sexual assault that could mean

830
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: the removal of the panties. And what I had read

831
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: on one of the second victim, on Donna severe bruising

832
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: on her thighs was their indication. But I'm not sure

833
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: they went as far as doing the autopsy to search

834
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: for seamen or whatever they would be looking for. In

835
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 1: nineteen hundred, let me give you a couple more details,

836
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 1: which I don't know that will be helpful, I'm sorry.

837
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 1: So based on the prince left on Mary's neck, and

838
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: we haven't heard this yet, Based on prince left on

839
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: Mary's neck. The latest victim of the fifteen year old.

840
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: The attacker had enormous and powerfully large hands and was

841
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: likely very tall, and they're basing that on the handprints

842
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: on her neck, and also on two sets of footprints

843
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 1: found at the scene. There was a small print which

844
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 1: they think is Mary, of course, and then the offender

845
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,919
Speaker 1: they said they were inconsistently laid out because they think

846
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: that Mary had been dragged to the location where she

847
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: was ultimately assaulted and killed. Now, the motive does not

848
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: seem to be robbery, because they found the nine dollars

849
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: near her body and he didn't take it.

850
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 2: Okay, and nine dollars back in this timeframe is a

851
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 2: fairly significant amount of money.

852
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: Well, you're right, this is worth three hundred and twenty

853
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: six dollars today, So that is a significant amount of

854
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: money for him to not take that.

855
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: Well, that is a little bit contradictory with the idea

856
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 2: that you are dealing with. Let's say this somewhat transient

857
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 2: population that's living in that park, because I would imagine

858
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: that those individuals are a little cash poor, and the

859
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 2: opportunity to grab nine dollars. You know, from now this

860
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 2: victim that you've killed.

861
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 3: It would be way too tempting. They would want that.

862
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 2: So now I'm a little bit curious as to why

863
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 2: that nine dollars wasn't taken. If we think the offender

864
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: is coming out of this park and is somewhat destitute,

865
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 2: So if it's like three hundred and twenty seven dollars today,

866
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 2: now maybe this offender is somebody that doesn't need the

867
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: money and he's just happening to prow for victims in

868
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 2: this particular neighborhood for some reason, and minimally he has

869
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: familiarity with his neighborhood.

870
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: Well is this when we talk about geographic profiling.

871
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 2: Well, we most early can. Now it's really tough. Right now,

872
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 2: I've just got this very vague. All these attacks are occurring,

873
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 2: you know, near this trolley area as well as this

874
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 2: park where you have a transient population living. You know,

875
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 2: that's significant from a geographic profile. However, the specific locations

876
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 2: of the attacks are also as important and offenders. There's

877
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 2: differing theories on how offenders operate. Some offenders will purposefully

878
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 2: attack away from their home base or some other anchor

879
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 2: point in their life.

880
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 3: Other offenders will.

881
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 2: Attack near their anchor points because that's where they are

882
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 2: spending their time and they have familiarity, so it really

883
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 2: just depends on the layout I would have to, you know,

884
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 2: And this is what I did with I've done this

885
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: in many cases, but notably Golden State Killer, where I

886
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: have so many data points you know, on Google Earth.

887
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 2: I put push pins on every single attack location and

888
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 2: started paying attention to the patterns, you know, the primary

889
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 2: arterial roads, at the distance between attacks, et cetera, in

890
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 2: order to assess, you know, what I could discern about

891
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: the offender. And without going into great detail at all,

892
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 2: I'll just say, you know, part of the geographic assessment

893
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: I did was, well, this guy's Sacramento based, and it's

894
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 2: one of the things I was very right about when

895
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 2: I was trying to predict who the offender was and

896
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 2: where he was at once we caught the agelo, well,

897
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 2: he was still living in Sacramento and was very Sacramental based.

898
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 2: From you know, his is middle school age all the

899
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: way up through adulthood, with a few exceptions in between.

900
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: Well, all of this seems to speed up and he

901
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: is very comfortable with this area. So this will be

902
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: interesting for you to hear. Wants this information about this

903
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: fifteen year old Mary Froshner gets out. People are horrified

904
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 1: and the murder of this young girl really freaks people out.

905
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: A number of people come forward who are witnesses. So

906
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: here is everything that has happened. There is a witness

907
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: whose name is Sam Morris. He said that the night

908
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: that Mary died around nine to twenty pm, now she

909
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: went missing at six fifteen pm. Around nine to twenty pm,

910
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: he saw a man sitting on a fence and he

911
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 1: was looking at a dark spot in the fields, which

912
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 1: is about where Mary was found. He was sitting on

913
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: the fence. When Sam tried to find out what the

914
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 1: man was up to. He didn't get very close because

915
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: the guy had a gun and threatened him and Sam

916
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: walked off. Now again, nobody is giving a good description.

917
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 1: No one's even saying race. I mean, I don't know

918
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: why I'm surprised by this, but it just doesn't seem

919
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: like anybody has a good beat on who this person

920
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: could be. There are several other instances. Do you want

921
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: me to tell you about those or do you want

922
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 1: to comment on that?

923
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 2: Well, I guess the question I have is he's sitting

924
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 2: on the fence. I mean, how tall is this fence.

925
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 2: Is this just a short fence that he's just kind

926
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 2: of sitting and hanging on, or is he like on

927
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 2: top of a six foot fence, like he's getting over

928
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 2: a barrier and then taking advantage of being up high

929
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 2: to spot a potential victim off in the distance.

930
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. It just has sitting on a fence

931
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: and glancing at a dark spot in the fields. That's

932
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,399
Speaker 1: all that Sam could see. Okay, we have to think

933
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: this is her killer and he has a gun. If

934
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: he has a gun, why not shooter? I mean, I

935
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't even want to get into shooting

936
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: versus strangling.

937
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 2: It just no, that's what That's actually a very important

938
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 2: point is I mean offenders will carry a firearm for

939
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 2: self preservation in case they are confronted, either by other

940
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 2: men or by the police, but their intent is not

941
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 2: to use the gun on the victim. Some offenders the

942
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 2: primary mode of a sexual assault, and how they kill

943
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 2: the victim doesn't matter to them because all they're doing

944
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 2: is eliminating the witness. For other offenders, your fantasy motivated

945
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 2: serial killers, how they kill the victim is just as

946
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,439
Speaker 2: important as what they do to the victim. Sexually or

947
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 2: with other behaviors. So this particular offender, strangulation is his preference.

948
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 2: The gun is just a backup for self preservation in

949
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 2: case something goes sideways like Abe.

950
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: Like Abe, for sure, Abe made things go sideways, and

951
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: that's why he was shot twice in the stomach. Okay,

952
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: so I've said that Sam Morris saw this creepy guy

953
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: sitting on a fence staring at something, and he was

954
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: threatened with a gun. There is a woman who reports

955
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 1: that just before that, twenty minutes before, around nine o'clock,

956
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: she got off of a trolley near her Again, all

957
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 1: of this from all the way back from nineteen hundred,

958
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,800
Speaker 1: within blocks of each other. She got off of the

959
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: trolley near her home. She said a guy appeared out

960
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 1: of nowhere and began chasing her, and he gave up

961
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: when she made it into her house. Of course, she

962
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 1: couldn't describe him. I mean, nobody has a description of

963
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: this guy. So that's twenty minutes before Sam Morris saw

964
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: him sitting on a fence.

965
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 3: Yeah.

966
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 2: So if it's the same guy, and I've worked cases

967
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 2: where you have these types of incidences that are not related.

968
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 3: But let's make the assumption it's the same guy.

969
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:37,720
Speaker 2: He's obviously just waiting for a victim in the right place.

970
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 2: And so if he sees this last woman what was

971
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 2: her name.

972
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 1: Her name was missus John Chef.

973
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 2: If missus Chef just happened to be the first potential

974
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 2: victim he ran across, she gets away, he's still out there.

975
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 2: It's not like, I mean, you think about this is

976
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 2: there's got to be this mindset of well is she

977
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 2: alerting law enforcement now? Back during this timeframe. It's not

978
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 2: like she's probably getting on a landline and calling in.

979
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

980
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 2: Right, So you know, this probably reduces the offender's concern about, uh, oh,

981
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 2: I just chase this woman. The cops are going to

982
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 2: be swarming the area, and I need to get out

983
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 2: of here. So he probably realizes he still has the

984
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 2: ability to hang out in his hunting ground and wait

985
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 2: for another victim that isolates herself. And that's where now

986
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 2: you've get the fifteen year old girl that if he's

987
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 2: up on that fence and spots her, he's now going, Okay,

988
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: there's another victim, and this man approaches him and he

989
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 2: just waves a gun at him and has no concern

990
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 2: because nobody's calling law enforcement.

991
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 3: During this era.

992
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 1: Well, then something else happens. Two days after Mary was

993
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: killed and Missus Shiff was attacked, there's a woman who's

994
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: living close to the crime scene who's identified anonymously Missus

995
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: Powers in the papers. She said she was assaulted by

996
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 1: a stranger. So this is two days later. She said,

997
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: I was standing outside my house. A man came out

998
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:09,720
Speaker 1: of nowhere, grabs her, begins to strangle her, leaving bruises

999
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: on her throat. She must have been in an isolated

1000
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 1: place because he then starts to forcibly remove her clothes.

1001
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,439
Speaker 1: Starts ripping off her clothes, but before he sexually assaulted her,

1002
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 1: the husband appears and chased him off, so she was

1003
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: full on attacked. He doesn't sexually assault her only because

1004
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: the husband shows up right outside her house two days later,

1005
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: right near the crime scene of the last one. Yep,

1006
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 1: it's like a frenzy.

1007
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 3: This is a HUNTI gravity well and he's snowballing.

1008
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: It sounds like Bundy. Remember when Bundy escaped. I think

1009
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: it was the first time when he escaped her. I

1010
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: can't remember which one. It was just like this spree

1011
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 1: that he went on. It feels like a frenetic thing.

1012
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: Happening with this guy.

1013
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 2: And this is a cluster and whether or not it

1014
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 2: continues for any you know, length of time, or it's

1015
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 2: just in a discrete period of time. You have giving

1016
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:05,280
Speaker 2: me those details yet. But let's evaluate the East ariioapist series,

1017
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 2: the Golden State Killer. But he had the Northern California

1018
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,800
Speaker 2: phase of sexual assaults. There were times when he would attack,

1019
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 2: you know, once a week, twice a week, and then

1020
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 2: there would be gaps and no attacks, and then there

1021
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 2: are times when he attacked several times a day, and

1022
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 2: then we have longer gaps of several months during this series.

1023
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 2: And it turns out I've learned subsequently that like one

1024
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 2: of the biggest gaps, a family member had come up

1025
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 2: from southern California and he was hanging out with that

1026
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 2: family member and he couldn't go out and prowl and attack.

1027
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,240
Speaker 2: So it's just, you know, life circumstances happened that prevent

1028
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 2: the offenders from attacking. YEP. Now, if we have this

1029
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 2: cluster out here in Dayton, it's telling me the offender

1030
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 2: is able to get out to commit these attacks during

1031
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 2: this timeframe, but possibly there is something going on in

1032
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 2: his personal life that is causing him to want to

1033
00:56:58,000 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 2: go out and attack.

1034
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 1: We have one murder left that we can say police

1035
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 1: feel like belong in this string of a serial killer.

1036
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: So Mary is murdered in late January. This happens in

1037
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: early February same year, so you have to think within weeks.

1038
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: There's an eighteen year old named Elizabeth Fulhart. She had

1039
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 1: just moved to Dayton and she vanished for weeks. They

1040
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: had no idea where she was. Finally they find her

1041
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:31,439
Speaker 1: body in the cistern of a vacant house right next

1042
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: door to a synagogue. And I know it's weird that

1043
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: I'm bringing up the synagogue. It's important in a little bit. Okay,

1044
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: So you know a cistern, do we have to talk

1045
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: about that? I think we've talked about a sistern before.

1046
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: I've written about it. It's not a well, but it's

1047
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: a place where you would keep water in the eighteen

1048
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: hundreds early nineteen hundreds. It's water proof, it's lined with something,

1049
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: so it's not like you're dumping water into a well.

1050
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: So her body was found in a cistern, which would

1051
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: not feel too different than shoving someone's body in an outhouse,

1052
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 1: which is what happened with Ada and nineteen hundreds.

1053
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 2: Right, that's another place to hide the body. So you know,

1054
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 2: most certainly there's enough overlap victimology, you know, geographic aspects,

1055
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 2: body disposal.

1056
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 3: Sounds like it could be the same offender to me.

1057
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: So here's the problem. The situation feels different to investigators.

1058
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: The issue is that she's been water logged for a

1059
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, so they can't find obvious signs of

1060
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: strangulation like fractured bones, because obviously she's so decomposed that

1061
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: they think is the only way they would really be

1062
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 1: able to determine if she were definitively strangled. What do

1063
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: you think about that? So they can't tell if she's

1064
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 1: actually been strangled.

1065
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 2: So that there are harder structures that probably would still

1066
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 2: be present with her body, such as you know, the

1067
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 2: cartilage structures to her you know, trachea, her voice box,

1068
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 2: as well as the hyoid bone, which when there is strangulation,

1069
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 2: these structures can be damaged, and that damage, several weeks

1070
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 2: later possibly would still be present for the pathologists to

1071
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 2: be able to ascertain that there had been violence inflicted

1072
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 2: to her neck. Those types of injuries are not always

1073
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 2: present in strangulation, you know, so it's possible she was strangled,

1074
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 2: and yet you don't see those structures showing damage.

1075
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the couple of things that seemed consistent.

1076
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: So one, let's just assume she was strangled. We're not sure,

1077
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 1: but we can assume she strangled. Maybe Number two, this

1078
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: is very close to the trolley stop, which is not

1079
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: far from where the other victims were found. This is

1080
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: also a case where she was missing her underwear, so they,

1081
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 1: of course at this point don't know whether she was

1082
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted, but there's no underwear, which happened in a

1083
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 1: couple of the cases. So that's what really made them

1084
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: feel like this was connected. And especially of course because

1085
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: Mary had just been murdered. These women had just been

1086
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: attacked a few weeks earlier. It just seemed too coincidental.

1087
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: The things that are not consistent, and you tell me

1088
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: if this is a big deal or not. They were

1089
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: really feeling like the other women and the girls who

1090
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: had been murdered were sort of not hidden very well,

1091
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: they were just dumped. Even Ada in nineteen hundred, the

1092
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: eleven year old was in her family's outhouse, so she

1093
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 1: would have been discovered but Elizabeth was hidden very well

1094
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: in the cistern. I mean it was weeks and weeks

1095
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 1: before people found her. She had been fully clothed, her

1096
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: clothes were not ripped apart, and actually her body had

1097
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: been wrapped in a burlap sack. So this is different.

1098
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: But is it different enough to say, oh no, I mean,

1099
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:35,919
Speaker 1: there's no way this is the same guy.

1100
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 2: I would put this as a tweener because there are cases,

1101
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 2: you know, like I've assessed series of victims where we

1102
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 2: know the offender has committed all the cases, and it

1103
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 2: is very typical to see differences from case to case

1104
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 2: to case. These offenders don't necessarily commit crimes. It's not

1105
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 2: cookie cutter, you know, there is differences either. These differences

1106
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: are because of the circumstances that come up during the attack,

1107
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 2: the environment in which the attack occurs, who the victim

1108
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 2: turns out to be, you know, the victim algy as

1109
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 2: I say, victimology is huge. Or sometimes offenders, you know,

1110
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 2: they they will change their mo based on prior experience

1111
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 2: in order to help them continue to commit attacks. In essence,

1112
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 2: they're recognizing they've made mistakes and so they learn from

1113
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:34,440
Speaker 2: their mistakes, or they like to experiment, and that experimentation

1114
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 2: is where you know, they've heard of something, they've read something,

1115
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 2: they've seen something, whatever, and they go, well, I want.

1116
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 3: To try that.

1117
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 2: And so you may have this this weird case that

1118
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 2: looks completely different than the previous cases and you go,

1119
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 2: that's a different case. Well it turns out no, it's

1120
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 2: just the offender, you know, playing around, trying to say, oh,

1121
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 2: I think I might get off doing this behavior if

1122
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 2: you will, and then deciding not, that doesn't work for me,

1123
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 2: and then going back to the typical mo You know,

1124
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 2: with this last case, they're at least the geographic proximity.

1125
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 2: You have a female victim, you have a body disposal.

1126
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 2: You know that is in line with these previous cases.

1127
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 2: The difference is, you know, the lack of the removal

1128
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 2: of the clothing and due to the time passage can't

1129
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 2: determine cause of death or potential sexual assault. But I'm

1130
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 2: not so concerned that she's been hidden. That just may

1131
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 2: be the offender is aware that that features present and

1132
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 2: put her body down there. The Burlop sack is something

1133
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 2: that's that's different. Again, I would have to assess, well,

1134
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 2: what is the purpose that sack is needed? Is that

1135
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 2: for transport purposes, and if there is any you know,

1136
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 2: some of these burlop sacks have like labels on them,

1137
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 2: you know, is there anything that would indicate, you know, the.

1138
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 3: Origin of this burlap sack, you know.

1139
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 2: So that could be a significant piece of evidence just

1140
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:03,160
Speaker 2: because it's occurring in the same geography, we have the

1141
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 2: same dictimology, if you will, in terms of female in

1142
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 2: the right age. I would at least consider this as

1143
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:14,439
Speaker 2: being part of the series, but also need to make

1144
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 2: sure that I'm looking at the possibility it isn't.

1145
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 1: Okay. Let's fast forward about one hundred years, because no

1146
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 1: one is arrested for Elizabeth's murder either. So these are

1147
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 1: all cold cases, whether they're together or not, none of

1148
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 1: them have been solved. So in twenty fifteen, there is

1149
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 1: a man named Brian Froshner. You recognize his last name.

1150
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 1: This is Mary Froshner, the fifteen year old who left

1151
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 1: with the nine dollars. This is her great nephew, and

1152
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: he writes a book called Cold Cereal, The Jack the

1153
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 1: Strangler Murders. Great title and head of the publication. Brian

1154
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 1: has worked tirelessly to try to link all of these cases,

1155
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 1: and he said, it seems really to be based on location,

1156
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 1: and as you were saying, sort of the the way

1157
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 1: things are laid out, he thinks he knows who the

1158
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 1: killer is and it's someone who the police had looked at,

1159
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 1: and it was really I think based on really the

1160
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: last case, he thinks it's a guy named Smith Hick White.

1161
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 1: This is a black man. This is why I think

1162
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 1: the burlap sap comes in. Okay, So this is a

1163
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 1: man who has a pretty extensive history of violent, sexually

1164
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: motivated behavior. In nineteen hundred, the same year that Ada

1165
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 1: was murdered, he had been arrested for trying to drag

1166
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 1: a little girl underneath the fairground stand to sexually assault her.

1167
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:39,960
Speaker 1: And in nineteen ten, after this last murder, he was

1168
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 1: convicted of raping and choking a girl at the synagogue

1169
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:47,640
Speaker 1: next door to where Elizabeth was found. Remember the vacant

1170
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 1: house with a cistern. He was a janitor at that synagogue.

1171
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: So I wonder if he is finally in a location

1172
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: where he knows he has privacy. He's at the synagogue

1173
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: and he knows next door the a vacant house, and

1174
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 1: maybe the burlap sack is finally like the thing where

1175
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:06,440
Speaker 1: he thinks I should have been able to do this,

1176
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 1: but he was koma causing the rest of the time.

1177
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:12,479
Speaker 1: And now finally this is like a situation where maybe

1178
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: he can control the evidence a little bit better. I

1179
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 1: might be wrong about that, but that's where I was

1180
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: wondering if this is the same guy. I wonder if

1181
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, well, finally he can take a moment.

1182
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:25,440
Speaker 2: Well, and that may be. You know, the fundamental change

1183
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 2: is instead of being out in the wild, so to speak,

1184
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 2: with the other cases, you know, now he has a

1185
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 2: victim in a protected environment and with Elizabeth being found

1186
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 2: in the cistern fully closed. Offenders do redress their victims,

1187
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 2: or make the victims redressed before killing them. You know,

1188
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 2: I gave a presentation a few months back to the

1189
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 2: International Corners Association and I told this entire group, I've

1190
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 2: got seven hundred plus pathologists and death investigators from all

1191
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 2: across the world, and I say, I don't care if

1192
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 2: the victim is fully clothed, you still process her body

1193
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 2: for sexual assault evidence and other DNA evidence because offenders

1194
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 2: do redress victims. So there may be that aspect because

1195
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 2: now he could take time with Elizabeth in this protected environment,

1196
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 2: assuming it's occurring either in the synagogue or at this

1197
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,440
Speaker 2: vacant house, and now he's taken the time to redress

1198
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 2: her and then knows of the sister and knows that

1199
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:30,960
Speaker 2: she won't be found for a period of time. The

1200
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 2: burlap sack is still interesting to me. You know, anytime

1201
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 2: the offender does something that is not needed, that's where

1202
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 2: I start focusing in on. And I have to see

1203
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 2: how this burlap sack was used. It may have just

1204
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 2: been to ball her up inside this sack. So if

1205
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:53,640
Speaker 2: he's seen outside carrying this heavy object, nobody can recognize

1206
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 2: it as a human body. It maybe has something just

1207
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 2: a disguise. I would have to evaluate it a little

1208
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 2: bit further. The dragging the little girl at the fairgrounds,

1209
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 2: you know, kind of to a hidden area. I think

1210
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 2: that's how you described it. He remember I mentioned that

1211
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 2: trapdoor spider type of offender. Yeah, that's what he was doing.

1212
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:18,560
Speaker 2: And so that right there lines up with the way

1213
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:22,920
Speaker 2: the offender, at least with the you know, up until Elizabeth,

1214
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 2: the way the offender was attacking the prior victims. So

1215
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 2: that's consistent. I think there's something to be said about

1216
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 2: with what the author Froshner is writing, I'm going, Okay,

1217
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:39,720
Speaker 2: you know there's enough there where I would consider him.

1218
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 2: I always see there's always suspects, but I would I say, Okay,

1219
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 2: I've got a prime suspect. However, I caution I've seen

1220
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:50,080
Speaker 2: too many prime suspects that add up and only to

1221
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:53,760
Speaker 2: be eliminated with DNA, you know. So that's that's the

1222
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 2: frustrating part sometimes with these really old cases. We've talked

1223
01:07:58,000 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 2: about Jack the Ripper, and I've said, well, that's an

1224
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 2: uns case. You can come up with circumstantial evidence against

1225
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 2: multiple men as being Jack the Ripper, but you can't

1226
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 2: prove it. I don't care how many circumstances that you

1227
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,480
Speaker 2: bring up. Same thing with this particular suspect. There's some

1228
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:16,439
Speaker 2: circumstances there I like, but because I've been burned by

1229
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 2: circumstances turning out to be coincidences, now, I'd want to

1230
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:24,720
Speaker 2: see that objective, identifying evidence to say, yes, he is right,

1231
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 2: but I give him kudos that he's at least identified

1232
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:32,400
Speaker 2: somebody that I having some expertise with this go yes,

1233
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 2: he's looking at the right to characteristics, and.

1234
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,559
Speaker 1: Just to add to it. When White is kind of

1235
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 1: publicized as maybe a suspect. All kinds of people come

1236
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:45,520
Speaker 1: forward in this time period and say he was a predator.

1237
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 1: He tried this with me, he tried that with me.

1238
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 1: He also has large hands. I know that doesn't really

1239
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 1: make a difference, but that's just another little bit, now,

1240
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 1: last little bit of circumstantial evidence, and tell me what

1241
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:03,000
Speaker 1: you think about this. So the first instance happens in

1242
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 1: nineteen hundred with Ada, that's the first murder, and he

1243
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 1: goes to prison in nineteen ten for raping and choking

1244
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 1: a girl at the synagogue I told you about where

1245
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,320
Speaker 1: he worked. So he's never been arrested at all for

1246
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:19,800
Speaker 1: any of these murders. It's simply going to jail for

1247
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 1: rape and for choking a girl. While he is in

1248
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: prison in nineteen ten, this all stops. It never happens again.

1249
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:33,519
Speaker 1: No more rapes like this, not with these circumstances. So

1250
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,519
Speaker 1: he's convicted in nineteen ten. He escapes in nineteen twelve.

1251
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 1: He goes to Cincinnati area, not far from Cincinnati, and

1252
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:45,360
Speaker 1: he's on the run for ten years into a girlfriend

1253
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:49,599
Speaker 1: turns him in. In that ten years, three women in

1254
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:54,639
Speaker 1: that area vanish and they feel like it's connected. Brian

1255
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:57,640
Speaker 1: Froshner at least feels like it's kind of weird that

1256
01:09:57,680 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 1: this happens. I don't have a lot of details of

1257
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 1: these women going missing, but the big point was all

1258
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 1: of it stopped when he went to prison in Dayton.

1259
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 1: At least.

1260
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you might be disappointed at my answer with this.

1261
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 1: Ah, I know what you're gonna say. He could have

1262
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 1: just moved or he was done, he aged out of

1263
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:14,640
Speaker 1: all of this.

1264
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:19,760
Speaker 2: I have just looked at so many men I know,

1265
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 2: you know, and that's a data point where oh, they're

1266
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:24,960
Speaker 2: in custody and we don't have any attacks while they're

1267
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:27,519
Speaker 2: in custody, or you know, they've died, and no more

1268
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:30,759
Speaker 2: attacks after you know, this person died and it turned

1269
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:34,360
Speaker 2: out that was just coincidence. There's something to be said

1270
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:39,000
Speaker 2: about Smith, and he's definitely a prime suspect in my

1271
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 2: mind in terms of how the details, the characteristics of

1272
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 2: his known predatory behavior, and his geographic proximity that all

1273
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:53,080
Speaker 2: seems to add up. And it's just I can't ever

1274
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 2: get away from knowing that coincidences do occur. You know,

1275
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,800
Speaker 2: Thursday list of suspects these Dayton cases, he's got an

1276
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:05,639
Speaker 2: asterisk by his name in my mind as demarking him

1277
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 2: as a prime suspect. You know, my hope would be

1278
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:11,880
Speaker 2: is that, and it's a long shot. I've rarely seen

1279
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:17,759
Speaker 2: departments with you know, cases from this vintage still having evidence,

1280
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:20,559
Speaker 2: you know, but if they happen to have it, of course,

1281
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:23,759
Speaker 2: the technology today exists to be able to show whether

1282
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 2: or not Smith was truly responsible for some, if not all,

1283
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 2: these cases.

1284
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:30,800
Speaker 1: Well, and I don't want to harp on this, but

1285
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:34,760
Speaker 1: I find it interesting that some of these suspects were

1286
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:38,519
Speaker 1: black and all of the victims were white. I don't

1287
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,080
Speaker 1: know if it's the time of night when this happened,

1288
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:43,639
Speaker 1: the trauma, everything, but no one can even talk about

1289
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:47,759
Speaker 1: race in this case Smith Hick White is black. Yeah,

1290
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 1: so you would think that's the first thing in nineteen

1291
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 1: hundred someone would say, what does that say? Does that

1292
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 1: say the trauma and the darkness and the just fastness

1293
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:02,240
Speaker 1: of all of these crimes coming in and doing it

1294
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 1: and leaving? Is that just all? Say? Boy, you can't

1295
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 1: even do an identification that you would at least think

1296
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:11,000
Speaker 1: they would be able to say whether the person was

1297
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:11,880
Speaker 1: black or white.

1298
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:15,600
Speaker 2: All of that in terms of you know, the traumatic

1299
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:20,320
Speaker 2: aspect as well as the darkness, but also recognize, you know,

1300
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 2: you're dealing with just a few potential witnesses. We don't

1301
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:28,320
Speaker 2: even know if these witnesses saw the actual offender, except

1302
01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:30,639
Speaker 2: for Bertha, the family group that was out there walking.

1303
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:35,360
Speaker 2: But this type of offender is committing a blitz attack.

1304
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 2: We know with Abe, he comes up from behind, and

1305
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:41,679
Speaker 2: Abe just happens to sense something to start turning around

1306
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:44,320
Speaker 2: before he's hit on the head and then shot. He

1307
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:47,640
Speaker 2: doesn't get a good look at the offender. Bertha is

1308
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 2: running away right, you know, and this is at night.

1309
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:52,000
Speaker 3: It's sudden.

1310
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:57,200
Speaker 2: We have so many limited witnesses, and I think it's

1311
01:12:57,280 --> 01:13:00,879
Speaker 2: only Bertha that truly can say she saw the offender

1312
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:05,400
Speaker 2: in that particular case. So it's not surprising that we're

1313
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 2: not getting a description that has a.

1314
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 3: Strong you know.

1315
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 2: The race characteristic is one of those things that typically

1316
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 2: is a very you put a lot of weight on

1317
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:18,679
Speaker 2: it because most people, under the right circumstances are able

1318
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:22,360
Speaker 2: to say I'm seeing white, I'm seeing black, you know,

1319
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:25,680
Speaker 2: I'm seeing somebody of color. But in this under these circumstances,

1320
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 2: it doesn't surprise me at all.

1321
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 1: Well, I think Smith Hick White is an excellent suspect

1322
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 1: in all of this. And I want to give the

1323
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 1: family member, Brian Froschner, incredible credit for this, for a

1324
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:42,640
Speaker 1: great nephew one hundred years later trying to solve, you know,

1325
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 1: a case that came from his family. And I talk

1326
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:47,519
Speaker 1: about this all the time in the books that I

1327
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:50,880
Speaker 1: write in the podcast, how important it is in your

1328
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 1: family history that these mysteries have closure, even if you

1329
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:59,439
Speaker 1: didn't know these people. Hundreds of years later, there are people,

1330
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 1: I mean this spent years trying to figure out if

1331
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,200
Speaker 1: his family member had been part of a string of

1332
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:09,280
Speaker 1: serial killer murders and he believes it. I give him

1333
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:10,720
Speaker 1: a lot of credit for that. Boy, that was a

1334
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:11,719
Speaker 1: lot of work that he did.

1335
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:14,560
Speaker 2: I do think, you know, based on everything that you

1336
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:17,120
Speaker 2: told me, that there is a serial killer at work

1337
01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:22,360
Speaker 2: here and Smith is a prime suspect. But again, if

1338
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 2: and when you know the physical evidence exists and can

1339
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:28,800
Speaker 2: be processed, there's always just going to be you know

1340
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:34,040
Speaker 2: that little footnote. Yeah, in terms of circumstantial case, don't

1341
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:34,559
Speaker 2: know for sure?

1342
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 1: Well, Paul, I might. I can't believe I'm saying this.

1343
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:46,400
Speaker 1: I might might might be warming up to unsolved cases. Well, maybe,

1344
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 1: don't be expecting these every week. It's not gonna happen

1345
01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:53,479
Speaker 1: every week, but I am gonna. I'm gonna keep a

1346
01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:55,599
Speaker 1: good eye out for you because I know you enjoy

1347
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,400
Speaker 1: him so much. They just give me the heb GB sometimes.

1348
01:14:58,600 --> 01:14:59,720
Speaker 3: Well, think of it this way.

1349
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 2: You've got a good book in front of you, and

1350
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:04,360
Speaker 2: you get to write the last chapter.

1351
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:07,599
Speaker 1: Oh that was very profound, Paul Hols.

1352
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:11,040
Speaker 3: Every now and then I pull something out.

1353
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:14,439
Speaker 1: With that. I'll see you next week.

1354
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:15,840
Speaker 3: All right, sounds good? Take care.

1355
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:21,639
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our Sources

1356
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

1357
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:28,800
Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1358
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1359
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:35,880
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1360
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:38,440
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1361
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:40,719
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1362
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1363
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1364
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

1365
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:53,000
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1366
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:55,080
Speaker 2: Age story of murder, and the Race to Decode the

1367
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 2: Criminal Mind is available now.

1368
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:01,440
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1369
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 1: cold cases is also available now