Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Speaker 2: The Gangs in Vancouver. Hey guys, we're finally on like
Speaker 2: the West coast with you guys. This is kind of nice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, same time, real time, same time.
Speaker 4: Real time.
Speaker 2: We're in Vancouver. We are quarantining right now. We are
Speaker 2: very fortunate because we're in a house which my one
Speaker 2: director friend who directed the last movie I was in,
Speaker 2: he was in a small one bedroom like hotel for
Speaker 2: fourteen days. I don't think I could do it, like
Speaker 2: not being able to just because here at least we're
Speaker 2: able to escape like downstairs or.
Speaker 4: Outside.
Speaker 2: I mean, he couldn't even go outside like that just
Speaker 2: like gives me so much anxiety thinking about that.
Speaker 3: Even for me who loves you know, my me time
Speaker 3: and isolation after like a third day, like get me
Speaker 3: out of here. I'm good, but like I.
Speaker 2: Think my issues and you know, if I'm being totally honest,
Speaker 2: the first night or the first morning that I woke
Speaker 2: up in this place was I had really bad anxiety
Speaker 2: because it's just being told you can't leave is what
Speaker 2: gives me, like being feeling I'm trapped and that that's
Speaker 2: kind of where my PTSD comes from. You know from
Speaker 2: that long time ago, and so just like that feeling
Speaker 2: of like trapped and oh my gosh, what if something happens?
Speaker 2: And but then that's when I go through everything in
Speaker 2: my brain like Okay, well what can happen, Jana, like
Speaker 2: what would happen? You know, and kind of have like
Speaker 2: an answer for the follow up does that make sense?
Speaker 3: Yeah? So when you get that way on the plane,
Speaker 3: what do you say? What are my options?
Speaker 2: My options are, you will land this plane right now,
Speaker 2: and look, anything can happen. You can always land a plate,
Speaker 2: but you don't want to be that person to land
Speaker 2: the plane anything.
Speaker 3: I've been, you know this morning when you like nudge
Speaker 3: me and like Jolie's walking around, I had not vertigo,
Speaker 3: but that feeling where because we're so tired last night
Speaker 3: and I crashed so hard. When I woke up, I
Speaker 3: was like trying to get my bearings. I didn't know
Speaker 3: where the hell we were. I was like expecting to
Speaker 3: wake up and see our room, but I'm like it
Speaker 3: was all different. It just took me in like that
Speaker 3: split second that felt like in eternity, am I dreaming?
Speaker 3: Where the hell are we? What is going on?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 2: It's it's crazy, but it's something my therapist told me,
Speaker 2: which was super helpful. She's like, when you get in
Speaker 2: that anxious place, like go to gratitude, go to being
Speaker 2: grateful that you know you're able to spend this time
Speaker 2: with your kids and you know, have really one on
Speaker 2: one time with them. So that's where I'm trying.
Speaker 3: To go, you know, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: And then knowing we were kind of getting bored in
Speaker 2: Nashville because i mean, we've pretty much been quarantined and
Speaker 2: stuck in our house for the last year, so it's
Speaker 2: nice to have a little bit of a change up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if we're gonna do it, might as we'll do
Speaker 3: it somewhere new and exciting and fresh. And except this morning,
Speaker 3: we were trying not to blow our low too quick because.
Speaker 4: We're like, that's nice, like dad, don't use all the cards.
Speaker 3: Let's play Hide and go seek, let's play tag, let's
Speaker 3: play free tag, let's play Simon says, let's play right
Speaker 3: light green light. Like whoa, whoa, whoa. We're throwing our
Speaker 3: whole parental bag at the kids in the first morning. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So it's like even this afternoon, we're like, okay, what now.
Speaker 2: And we have so many more days to go. I
Speaker 2: am really excited about today's episode in Today's guest, But
Speaker 2: before we talk about who's coming on, let's.
Speaker 4: Take a quick break.
Speaker 2: So I had someone reach out to me a couple
Speaker 2: months ago, and I'd heard of Lisa, but I really
Speaker 2: didn't know her story. Lisa Turkhurst is an amazing author.
Speaker 2: She's a number one New York Times bestselling author of
Speaker 2: It's Not Supposed to Be This Way Uninvited, in twenty
Speaker 2: other books. The book that I'm reading right now is
Speaker 2: Forgetting What you Can't Forget, and I'm halfway through it
Speaker 2: and there's just so many times when I'm reading the
Speaker 2: book I'm like, oh, yeah, Like it's just she's a
Speaker 2: really good author. But she also has such a personal
Speaker 2: story as well that she writes in our book in
Speaker 2: her books, and so I'm really, really really pumped to
Speaker 2: have her on because she's a big deal. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: is she a minute like because she works with ministries.
Speaker 3: No, I don't think she's personally a minister, but a
Speaker 3: lot of her stuff has you know, religious backing and
Speaker 3: religious and Christian beliefs and motivation and stuff behind it.
Speaker 3: So big believer in Christ and big believer in God
Speaker 3: and Follower. So you know, that's a lot of what
Speaker 3: she talks about at speaking engagements and in her books,
Speaker 3: you know, she mentions that, and so I'm curious to
Speaker 3: talk to her about that aspect of it and has
Speaker 3: that been something that she's always had in her life
Speaker 3: or is this something with the events that she's gone
Speaker 3: through personally it became stronger, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: So that and also she also does she has online
Speaker 2: Bible studies and then workbooks along to go with her books.
Speaker 4: So I'm super pumped to get her on. So why
Speaker 4: don't we just get her on now?
Speaker 3: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 5: Hello, good to see you, guys.
Speaker 4: Good to see you. How are you doing great?
Speaker 5: Thank you?
Speaker 2: First of all, I'm just so thankful that you're coming
Speaker 2: on this podcast.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I have so many people that reach out to me
Speaker 2: and say that you know, our stories are similar, and
Speaker 2: you know, to read your books, and I cannot tell
Speaker 2: you how much I'm loving forgiving what you can't forget.
Speaker 2: I now I want to go back because I want
Speaker 2: to know more you know about about everything, But I
Speaker 2: guess I just kind of want to jump in you
Speaker 2: in the book, you said you were married was it
Speaker 2: thirty years before?
Speaker 5: Almost thirty years Yeah, so at the time that this happened,
Speaker 5: it was I think we had been married twenty five years.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 2: And it's it's interesting because when I was reading your
Speaker 2: book and something that I was just like shaking my
Speaker 2: head on the plane too. It's it's the like your
Speaker 2: own personal BC and AD, which usually means before Christ
Speaker 2: but it was whenever we have conversation, it's like, well,
Speaker 2: it's like before the affair or and it's just it
Speaker 2: registered so much with me because everything is before that
Speaker 2: or after.
Speaker 4: But how did you How did.
Speaker 2: Did he come to you? Because I don't know that
Speaker 2: that story. I know that's which which book is that.
Speaker 5: In It's not supposed to be this way, but I
Speaker 5: don't typically talk about how the revelation came. But yeah,
Speaker 5: I can tell you he did not come to me.
Speaker 5: I discovered it, which, again, for the forgiveness journey, makes
Speaker 5: it even harder.
Speaker 4: So hard.
Speaker 2: And I think that's something where when people come to
Speaker 2: us and they say that they told them, I'm like,
Speaker 2: that's that's almost a gift that they gave the other person,
Speaker 2: because for me, I'm like, what I would have given
Speaker 2: for you to be to have. It's not that respect,
Speaker 2: but just like that honesty, you know, just knowing that,
Speaker 2: like you respect me enough to even though you've hurt
Speaker 2: me to know that it's.
Speaker 4: You know, to come to me and tell me.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I definitely empathize with you on that. And when
Speaker 2: did you go okay, like this is worth fighting for.
Speaker 2: I think I had that revelation right from the very beginning.
Speaker 2: I mean, part of it is we have five grand kids,
Speaker 2: and in twenty sixteen, three of our five kids were
Speaker 2: getting married, and so there were a lot of dynamic
Speaker 2: in play. But I never ever had this feeling of like.
Speaker 5: I don't want to be married. I've never had that feeling.
Speaker 5: And so I think for some people, you know, when
Speaker 5: they find out there were there are already some dynamics
Speaker 5: in place where it's kind of like, uh, you know,
Speaker 5: I don't even know if I want to be married
Speaker 5: to this person anymore. That was not the situation with me.
Speaker 5: I mean my husband, I've you know, met him when
Speaker 5: I was young. I was in my early twenties. We
Speaker 5: got married when I was young, and I never I
Speaker 5: never had that feeling of I don't want to be married.
Speaker 5: And I definitely never had the feeling that I didn't
Speaker 5: want to be married to him, and so the whole
Speaker 5: thing was so shocking to me. I don't know that
Speaker 5: it ever occurred to me not to fight for.
Speaker 3: The marriage and remind myself and our listeners. So that
Speaker 3: was twenty sixteen that discovery happened. Yes, okay, so that's
Speaker 3: the same Yeah, timeline is us, Yeah, same.
Speaker 4: Year, Dan, That year sucked for us. Huh.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, that was a very very hard year. So
Speaker 5: of course it's like before two thy sixteen, after twenty sixteen,
Speaker 5: you know. And what's so complicated is I look back
Speaker 5: on pictures, like especially from twenty fifteen, when you know,
Speaker 5: I just didn't know what I didn't know that year,
Speaker 5: and I look at the Christmas card picture, I look
Speaker 5: at family vacation pictures, and it's they I really wrestled
Speaker 5: through having to to make peace with those memories. And
Speaker 5: at first I just wanted to throw everything away. I
Speaker 5: just I was just so shocked. But then I kind
Speaker 5: of had this revelation that if those were beautiful memories
Speaker 5: to me, I get to keep them, and whatever's too painful,
Speaker 5: I can throw those away. But I don't want pain
Speaker 5: to go back and rewrite the memories, because you know,
Speaker 5: there were beautiful memories that were still made and I
Speaker 5: didn't want to throw them all away.
Speaker 3: I have a couple of questions around that topic because
Speaker 3: we just kind of experienced that just a week or
Speaker 3: two ago, because it was our daughter's fifth birthday and
Speaker 3: so you know, Janna was going back and looking at
Speaker 3: pictures when she was born that we were showing our
Speaker 3: daughter and that she posted on social media, and it
Speaker 3: brings that stuff up for both of us. And I know,
Speaker 3: just from my side of things personally too, it's just
Speaker 3: as hard in a different way to look at that. Granted,
Speaker 3: mine has a history of addiction attached to it. So
Speaker 3: I look at those pictures, I'm like, I don't even
Speaker 3: know who the hell I was. Does your husband have
Speaker 3: some kind of you know, shame or feelings around that
Speaker 3: where he looks back and he's just he hits him
Speaker 3: again too.
Speaker 5: Yes, And you know, our story again very similar, is
Speaker 5: there were a lot of addictions that were at play,
Speaker 5: and you know, the addiction cycle is brutal, and so
Speaker 5: you know, I feel like it's something even even today,
Speaker 5: we're still navigating, you know, And I mean, you can
Speaker 5: you can be on the road to healing. But those
Speaker 5: addictions are so powerful, and if you don't stay on
Speaker 5: top of them constantly every single day, they can start
Speaker 5: to creep back up. So you know, my heart goes
Speaker 5: out to you because I very much know that I
Speaker 5: have to say to myself sometimes I'm you know, especially
Speaker 5: back then, my counselor taught me to say, you are
Speaker 5: not talking to the husband that you know and love,
Speaker 5: you are talking to the addiction. And that helped me
Speaker 5: because when the addiction was just so stirred up and
Speaker 5: so all consuming, I found myself in love with the
Speaker 5: idea of who I knew my husband could be, rather
Speaker 5: than being honest with myself about what was actually happening.
Speaker 5: But when my counselor talk to me and just said,
Speaker 5: you need to put a pillow in front of your
Speaker 5: face right now, when he's active in his addiction, you're
Speaker 5: talking to the addiction, but that pillow, you're not actually
Speaker 5: talking to the husband that you know and love.
Speaker 4: That's so true.
Speaker 2: I want to go back to the because I was
Speaker 2: what you said. I was, you know, reading that in
Speaker 2: the book as well, like you want to enjoy your
Speaker 2: wedding album again, and I want to be able to,
Speaker 2: you know, look back on our baby moon and all
Speaker 2: these things. But it's like, and I know that my
Speaker 2: therapist that's kind of said the same thing, like, those
Speaker 2: are your memories. You don't have to to forget those,
Speaker 2: But how do you stop yourself from ruminating? Ruminating because
Speaker 2: that's where I go. I'm like, oh, well that was
Speaker 2: when this happened, And I'm not able to look at
Speaker 2: the happy memories because I can't stop myself from going
Speaker 2: to well he was off doing X, Y and Z.
Speaker 5: It's a great question, and I think it's attention to manage.
Speaker 5: It's not going to be a problem to solve. And
Speaker 5: what I mean by that is there are going to
Speaker 5: be some days where you're fine with it, and then
Speaker 5: there are going to be other days where, for whatever reason,
Speaker 5: it becomes a major trigger. And in terms of forgiveness,
Speaker 5: you know, that's why it was really important to me
Speaker 5: not to say forgive and forget, because that's not in
Speaker 5: the Bible, and honestly, I'm not even sure that that's
Speaker 5: honestly possible. And it does say in the Bible that
Speaker 5: God takes our sins and casts them to the depths
Speaker 5: of the sea, and remembers them no more. But I
Speaker 5: could not find in the Bible where humans have the
Speaker 5: ability to forgive and forget. We can forgive and at
Speaker 5: the same time remember the pain and walk through the process.
Speaker 5: That's why forgiveness is both a decision and a process,
Speaker 5: and it's important to make room for both. You make
Speaker 5: the one time decision to forgive for the fact of
Speaker 5: what happened, but then you have to walk through the
Speaker 5: very long process of forgiving for the impact that this
Speaker 5: has had on you. And there was a there was
Speaker 5: an emotional debt created. So if it was a five
Speaker 5: dollars debt, like someone inconvenienced you, you can probably forgive
Speaker 5: and forget. But when it's betrayal and the most sacred relationship,
Speaker 5: the most sacred human relationship you have, that's like a
Speaker 5: five million dollar debt. Of course you're going to remember it.
Speaker 5: So you just have to be honest with yourself. And
Speaker 5: some days you're going to be okay looking at those
Speaker 5: pictures and other days you're not. But you know, the
Speaker 5: choice is really like I said, it's attention to manage.
Speaker 5: It's not a problem to solve. And over time, this
Speaker 5: is what I'm finding. Over time, the goodness of today
Speaker 5: can help backfill some some pieces and parts of the
Speaker 5: past story. And you you, guys, this is this is
Speaker 5: your journey. So you guys get to talk about it,
Speaker 5: you get to land on it, You get to decide
Speaker 5: what questions will you ask them, what questions will you
Speaker 5: not ask? And you get to decide are there spaces
Speaker 5: where even when you look at those pictures, that the
Speaker 5: authentic husband that you know and love was there, and
Speaker 5: the other parts the addiction was there. But you get
Speaker 5: to navigate that because it's your journey and there's no
Speaker 5: right or wrong way to do it, you know, it's
Speaker 5: just that that is one of the brutal consequences of infidelity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like that helps with also like knowing that, Okay,
Speaker 2: I might be able to look at this one day
Speaker 2: and be happy with it, but then also give myself
Speaker 2: grace when the next day I might be like, how
Speaker 2: could you you know, like and then have that.
Speaker 4: So I think that's a good reminder.
Speaker 3: As you know, being a follower of Christ and you
Speaker 3: know religion and everything. Has that always been a part
Speaker 3: of your personal life, of your relationship with your husband
Speaker 3: or did it increase once you guys went through this
Speaker 3: trauma together.
Speaker 5: I think it's been a pretty consistent part of our relationship.
Speaker 5: But I think what's so hard is it's hard for
Speaker 5: me to reconcile the addiction and at the same time
Speaker 5: a relationship with Christ because those two things don't match
Speaker 5: in my brain. But at the same time, I know
Speaker 5: addiction is not my issue, but I have issues and
Speaker 5: sometimes I step knee deep into sin. And I very
Speaker 5: much love Jesus. So you know, I heard a really
Speaker 5: good quote recently. My counselor said, you're either in empathy
Speaker 5: or judgment. There's no one between. And so I've started
Speaker 5: to ask myself, you know, who do I really want
Speaker 5: to be? And I want to be somebody who represents Jesus.
Speaker 5: And Jesus didn't walk around in judgment. He walked around
Speaker 5: in empathy because he saw the plight of of humanity.
Speaker 5: It is a brutal journey to be human and live
Speaker 5: in a sin soaked world. So here's the caution. Though
Speaker 5: you can be in empathy and at the same time
Speaker 5: draw really secure boundaries, and boundaries aren't meant to shove
Speaker 5: another person away. Boundaries are meant to hold yourself together.
Speaker 5: And so when you've been the one that's been betrayed.
Speaker 5: For me, I want to walk in empathy, but at
Speaker 5: the same time, I want to have boundaries to say
Speaker 5: this is acceptable, this is not acceptable. And this is
Speaker 5: an area that we still need to do some therapy
Speaker 5: around because I can't figure it out.
Speaker 3: How has your husband been with the publicity of you know,
Speaker 3: y'all's relationship, what you've been through personally? Was that something
Speaker 3: he was supportive of from the beginning. Was that something
Speaker 3: you know he had shame around?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and why did you want to share? I mean,
Speaker 2: I know our reasons, but in wondering if they're aligned.
Speaker 5: To well to some extent, we didn't get to have
Speaker 5: that choice because I live a pretty public life, and
Speaker 5: so things were coming out and our story was either
Speaker 5: going to be told in the rumor mil or we
Speaker 5: could get ahead of it and tell it, you know,
Speaker 5: with truth. So unfortunately we didn't really have a choice.
Speaker 5: The story was going to come out. But my husband
Speaker 5: had a really healthy perspective right from the beginning. You know,
Speaker 5: he would say the day that everything came out was
Speaker 5: simultaneously the worst day of his life and the best
Speaker 5: day of his life. It was the worst day because
Speaker 5: everybody knew. It was the best day because now everybody knew.
Speaker 5: And so he would say, now when he walks into
Speaker 5: a room, he doesn't have to figure out who knows
Speaker 5: and who doesn't know. He walks into a room, now
Speaker 5: he assumes everyone knows. Therefore he gets to choose how
Speaker 5: he walks in the room. And he said he could
Speaker 5: walk in as a villain, but he realizes we have
Speaker 5: an enemy and it's not him, or he could walk
Speaker 5: in as a victim. You know, he's had past traumas
Speaker 5: that very much fed into this. But he doesn't want
Speaker 5: to be a victim. He wants to walk in that
Speaker 5: room as a redeemed man walking in victory. And he
Speaker 5: always says he'll be the safest person.
Speaker 4: In the room.
Speaker 3: I love that because I mean, me and our stories
Speaker 3: really do mirror each other because we're the same and
Speaker 3: we didn't really have a choice, and even though we didn't,
Speaker 3: I still kind of wanted to sweep things under the rug,
Speaker 3: and just I wanted to avoid and I was telling
Speaker 3: jan it's like, if we just don't talk about it,
Speaker 3: it'll go away. And that was just me being naive.
Speaker 3: And now I think back on it, and what your
Speaker 3: husband said. The way he said it is so true
Speaker 3: because I don't have that fear of maybe they're acting
Speaker 3: weird towards me because they know but not everyone else does.
Speaker 3: I'm like, I am who I am everyone here, even
Speaker 3: if I don't know you, you know me to an extent,
Speaker 3: so whatever here, I am. So I love how you
Speaker 3: know he said that, because that just definitely registers for
Speaker 3: me now. It didn't at first, but it does.
Speaker 2: I guess I want to ask, because we're the same
Speaker 2: years since discovery, do you still have those days where
Speaker 2: it's it's not unmanageable, but you have such like still
Speaker 2: anger in your heart and you might lash out or
Speaker 2: is it just me asking for a friend.
Speaker 5: Asking for a friend l of course, of course, of
Speaker 5: course you still get triggered. Of course that pain still
Speaker 5: comes up. Of course it does. And it's so good
Speaker 5: for me to talk to other women who walk this journey,
Speaker 5: because sometimes I seriously feel like I'm the crazy one,
Speaker 5: Like what in the world you know I should be?
Speaker 5: I should be better by now, I should be more
Speaker 5: healed by now. But human relationship are so complex. On
Speaker 5: the one level, it seems kind of simple, like be nice,
Speaker 5: be empathetic, you know, love each other, you know what
Speaker 5: I'm saying, But I mean there's complexities that we've in
Speaker 5: and out of a relationship, and you double triple that
Speaker 5: when there's been trauma in the relationship. So I just
Speaker 5: want to say, of course, you still struggle some days
Speaker 5: with anger, and it doesn't mean you're not forgiving. If
Speaker 5: you've made the decision to forgive. Now you're just in
Speaker 5: the process of figuring out the impact that this had
Speaker 5: on you. And it is okay that you have days
Speaker 5: that are better than others, and it's okay that these
Speaker 5: feelings bubble up, but it is your choice what you
Speaker 5: do with them. And so for me, it's important for
Speaker 5: me to be honest about how I feel. But I
Speaker 5: don't always need to process all of those feelings with
Speaker 5: my husband. I definitely don't need to process them with
Speaker 5: you know, certain family members who can't handle that. It's
Speaker 5: really good for me to process it with my counselor.
Speaker 5: And or if you don't have a counselor, then a
Speaker 5: safe friend who has a lot of love for both
Speaker 5: of you, and who probably the safest kind of friend
Speaker 5: would be a mature friend who's further down this exact
Speaker 5: journey that you've taken, you know than you are. And
Speaker 5: so I heard a really good quote about trauma, and
Speaker 5: I've been I've been pondering this over and over and over,
Speaker 5: especially when trust has been broken. Trust is built time
Speaker 5: plus believable behavior, and so there's going to be a
Speaker 5: lot of time that has to go by. But relationships
Speaker 5: cannot survive without trust. Trust really is the oxygen of
Speaker 5: human relationships. And so trust can be broken in an instant,
Speaker 5: but to rebuild it could take a very long long time.
Speaker 5: But here's how you'll know when you trust but verify
Speaker 5: that you're on the right path rebuilding trust is if
Speaker 5: you were to be in a moment where you need
Speaker 5: to verify something and you say can I see your
Speaker 5: phone or can I look at your computer? And if
Speaker 5: he says, we're still dealing with this, like are you kidding?
Speaker 5: We should be further down the road, like this is ridiculous.
Speaker 5: Then when that kind of script comes up, that means
Speaker 5: that it's gonna set you backwards in your trust. So
Speaker 5: what my counselor helped my husband understand because at first
Speaker 5: we were having this weird, dysfunctional dance with it all
Speaker 5: because it was tapping into his shame. But my counselor said,
Speaker 5: don't personalize it. Don't personalize it. And instead of saying,
Speaker 5: are you kidding? You still so dealing with this, instead
Speaker 5: of that say to her, of course, of course you
Speaker 5: want to check my phone. And you know what, I'm
Speaker 5: so happy to have you check my phone because I
Speaker 5: want you to see I'm telling the truth. And that
Speaker 5: has helped a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, I love that piece, and I think it is
Speaker 2: hard on you know, our husband's side too, because there
Speaker 2: are times when I'm like, you know, I just don't
Speaker 2: feel comfortable with that, and You're right, it does go
Speaker 2: into their shame. It's like, well, am I going to
Speaker 2: be able to go out? And you know in another
Speaker 2: five years, like I'm always gonna have to deal with this.
Speaker 2: And we kind of got into it the other day
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I wish we didn't have to, but
Speaker 2: like this is unfortunately, like I might just have more
Speaker 2: days that I'm more triggered. And it's and but you know,
Speaker 2: he thinks that maybe is a it's like about control
Speaker 2: or I'm like, it has nothing to do with that.
Speaker 2: It's truly just a safety thing. And you know, and
Speaker 2: I hope in ten years will be better. But I
Speaker 2: mean we've come real far from five years, you know,
Speaker 2: wherever long that is. So you know, I have to
Speaker 2: imagine the next five if we keep building, will be
Speaker 2: able to be at a better place. But it's unfortunately,
Speaker 2: it's always going to be there, no matter if it's
Speaker 2: five years or twenty years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think for at least me personally,
Speaker 3: and I'm sure I speak for a lot of men
Speaker 3: in the situation is you know, I would rather it
Speaker 3: be direct, kind of like you're saying, Lisa, and Jane
Speaker 3: is doing a better job at doing that too, Like, hey,
Speaker 3: can I see this because I'm feeling a little whatever
Speaker 3: mine is. I know Jane well enough or us. She'll
Speaker 3: start like asking these questions and they're like probing questions,
Speaker 3: and I know there's something underneath of it, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: just come out and say what you need to say.
Speaker 3: And because when it's like multiple questions one after the other,
Speaker 3: then it's like I feel like I'm being tested. I
Speaker 3: feel like I'm being manipulated, like coached into a corner
Speaker 3: where no matter what I say, there's going to be
Speaker 3: a reaction, when really there's something underneath of it, And
Speaker 3: so that's where I struggle the most, is like the
Speaker 3: patience with that or the ability to even if I
Speaker 3: see it, to be like, hey, what's really going on
Speaker 3: right here? Talk to me, you know, and like be
Speaker 3: an inviting you know, place for her, an inviting safe place.
Speaker 2: As you found the other day. Though sometimes you don't
Speaker 2: know what's underneath that at the time, like there's something,
Speaker 2: but you haven't, like I don't, like I just feel
Speaker 2: it in my chest. So I want to ask, but
Speaker 2: I don't know. So how do you You're basically a
Speaker 2: therapist now, so how do we navigate towards that?
Speaker 3: This is?
Speaker 4: How much do we owe you?
Speaker 5: So I'm gonna I'm going to sidestep the question because
Speaker 5: I think I'm going to give something that'll be helpful.
Speaker 5: I don't always know what I'm feeling either, and sometimes
Speaker 5: if I'm pushed to identify the feeling, it makes me
Speaker 5: panicycause I don't I don't want to own a feeling
Speaker 5: I'm not really having. But if I can't figure out
Speaker 5: the feeling, I'm scared. I'm going to say something and
Speaker 5: then an hour from now, I'm like, wait, that was
Speaker 5: the wrong feeling, And now I'm held accountable to a
Speaker 5: feeling I wasn't even really you know, And it's very complicated.
Speaker 5: I'm a nine wing eight on the Enneagram. It basically
Speaker 5: means like I can't even figure out sometimes what like
Speaker 5: am I angry? Am I sad am? I mad am?
Speaker 5: I depressed? Am I actually elated? Am I am in dread?
Speaker 5: What is this? And it takes a long time. But
Speaker 5: if I can have a minute to process, I may
Speaker 5: not be able to identify the exact feeling, but I
Speaker 5: can just say I don't know what this is, but
Speaker 5: here's what it's causing me to want to do. And
Speaker 5: so that's a little bit easier. But in the book
Speaker 5: Forgiving what you can't forget, and I don't think it's
Speaker 5: in every copy. I think it's in the Bible study,
Speaker 5: and also in a special edition that Target did, there's
Speaker 5: this section called the Divine Echo. And so the reason
Speaker 5: I said I want to sidestep this a little bit
Speaker 5: is sometimes we can get just really caught up in
Speaker 5: the tunnel of chaos, where you're going back and forth
Speaker 5: and there's hurt here and there's shame here, and when
Speaker 5: hurt bumps into shame, it's just never a beautiful situation, right,
Speaker 5: So one day I was so discouraged over this because
Speaker 5: I just felt like I'm crying over what happened still,
Speaker 5: and I don't I just sometimes wonder like are we
Speaker 5: really going to make it? And I don't know if
Speaker 5: you guys ever had that. And then I'm like, but
Speaker 5: we've been fighting so hard for this, and of course
Speaker 5: we're going to make it. But then I don't know, like,
Speaker 5: are we really going to make it? And so one
Speaker 5: day the Lord said, you are trying to look so
Speaker 5: far down the road. Let's just let's just focus on
Speaker 5: what what can you do today to fight well today?
Speaker 5: And so I was looking in Genesis, and anybody that
Speaker 5: knows me, I have an absolute obsession with Genesis one, two,
Speaker 5: and three. I know it's a strange thing to be
Speaker 5: obsessed about. Even my therapist said, this is like my
Speaker 5: coping mechanism. Like I was in this therapy group and
Speaker 5: all these people have these really exciting coping mechanisms, and
Speaker 5: it got around to me and I was like, I
Speaker 5: think I read the Bible. Maybe I over spiritualized things.
Speaker 5: So I don't know, I'm kind of a boring person,
Speaker 5: but I have a true pssession with Genesis one, two,
Speaker 5: and three, so hang with me here. Then the Bible
Speaker 5: talks about what ingredients God chose to make the man
Speaker 5: and what ingredients God chose to make the woman. This
Speaker 5: is really fascinating. Why on earth would God have chosen
Speaker 5: dust to make the man from? And why would he
Speaker 5: have chosen broken off bone to make the woman from?
Speaker 5: I mean, if you think about it, dust, I mean
Speaker 5: God had access to everything. So if I was making
Speaker 5: a suggestion to God, I'd be like, Okay, the man
Speaker 5: needs to be made out of gold and the woman
Speaker 5: needs a made out of diamonds, and God had access
Speaker 5: to that. But instead he made the man out of dusty,
Speaker 5: he made the woman that had broken off bone. So today,
Speaker 5: if you're dusting your house and you take the dust rack,
Speaker 5: nobody ever said, oh, precious dust, you're so amazing, Like,
Speaker 5: let me just set you on a shelf and honor
Speaker 5: you for a minute. No nobody ever said that, Like,
Speaker 5: you don't even think about the dust. You wipe it
Speaker 5: away and you throw it away, right and with broken
Speaker 5: off bone. Now, some people like to decorate with broken
Speaker 5: off bones, so just set that aside. But like, typically
Speaker 5: if you're like on a hike and you see like
Speaker 5: an animal carcass or like rib bones or something, You're
Speaker 5: not gonna be like, oh wow, that's so beautiful. No,
Speaker 5: like broken off bone is a sign that decay has
Speaker 5: happened and it needs to be buried, right, And so
Speaker 5: I was really fascinated by this, but I realized that
Speaker 5: those weren't the only ingredients. Man is not just dust,
Speaker 5: he's also breath of God. And woman is not just
Speaker 5: broken off bone. She's touch of God, design of God.
Speaker 5: And we have to remember that we have a choice
Speaker 5: every day to speak to the dust and the broken
Speaker 5: off bone, or we can speak to the full picture
Speaker 5: of who man and woman really is. And there's this
Speaker 5: beautiful scripture that it says it's not good for the
Speaker 5: man to be alone? Can I get an amen on
Speaker 5: that one? Love that Bible verse? So God created a
Speaker 5: helper suitable for him. So what in the world does
Speaker 5: that mean? Like what is a wife? What am I
Speaker 5: supposed to do? And when I researched the original language,
Speaker 5: that word means two things. It's negeed and what it
Speaker 5: means is royalty and it also means reflection. So the woman,
Speaker 5: when you put all that together, the woman supposed to
Speaker 5: be in front of the man, reflecting back to him
Speaker 5: and reminding him, you're not just dust. You're also breath
Speaker 5: of God, and you were formed from royalty. You were
Speaker 5: made in the image of God, meant to fill the
Speaker 5: earth up, not just populate the earth, but fill the
Speaker 5: earth up with evidence of God's goodness in God's glory.
Speaker 5: And then the woman, the man is supposed to reflect
Speaker 5: to the woman, you are not just broken off bone.
Speaker 5: You were touch of God, design of God. In every
Speaker 5: space you walk into, you have such an ability to
Speaker 5: fill the earth up with the evidence of God's goodness
Speaker 5: in God's glory. Can you imagine how different it would
Speaker 5: be if we start taking back moments from the dysfunctional
Speaker 5: Dance and just paused in the middle of the day
Speaker 5: and say, you know what, your addiction and your affair,
Speaker 5: that was dust, but that's not all who you are.
Speaker 5: You are also breath of God. And so I'm going
Speaker 5: to speak some life over you in that space. And
Speaker 5: then you reflect back to her like, hey, you are
Speaker 5: not just broken off bone. You're not just the angry
Speaker 5: woman who's triggered and upset about the pictures from the
Speaker 5: baby moon and all this stuff. You know who you are, Jana,
Speaker 5: you are touch of God, design of God, and speaking
Speaker 5: life over her and telling her you are beautiful, you
Speaker 5: are significant, you are amazing. And just imagine if we
Speaker 5: start stealing back some memories in our day from the
Speaker 5: Dysfunctional Dance and we started I call this the divine echo,
Speaker 5: when we just started speaking this life over one another.
Speaker 5: And it's hard when you're angry and frustrated and hurt
Speaker 5: and triggered and all of that. But I'm just determined
Speaker 5: if we stole back moments and intentionally created life and
Speaker 5: started breathing life back into our relationships, I think it
Speaker 5: would be pretty amazing.
Speaker 4: I mean, amen to all that.
Speaker 2: I just I have to say it's really comforting because
Speaker 2: everything that you you know talk about, you know, even
Speaker 2: in this book, and I can't wait to go back
Speaker 2: to read your other ones. It's just it's just nice
Speaker 2: to not feel alone, and it's nice to not it's
Speaker 2: nice to know that, like, and that's why we wrote,
Speaker 2: you know, our book, because it's like, I just I
Speaker 2: don't want to be alone. I don't want to feel
Speaker 2: like I'm alone. I got to think that someone else
Speaker 2: is out there that is feeling the same way, and
Speaker 2: I just I really, I really really really appreciate you,
Speaker 2: and I I am yeah, I'm just I'm thankful for
Speaker 2: you as a person, as an author is and I'm
Speaker 2: I can't imagine, well, I can't imagine.
Speaker 4: But but.
Speaker 2: You know, I just, yeah, I just thank you for
Speaker 2: everything that you do. And I'm excited to do your
Speaker 2: online Bible study stuff and all.
Speaker 4: The worksheets too.
Speaker 2: I I do want to ask, so, how was it
Speaker 2: for the kids, because that is something that I'm nervous about.
Speaker 2: But I know your kids are older, so I'm just
Speaker 2: curious how that.
Speaker 5: You know they're still on their journey. And I think
Speaker 5: everyone in our family is still trying to find their
Speaker 5: way through therapy and find healing. So the hard part's obvious,
Speaker 5: but there's a good part too, is that I'm not
Speaker 5: sure we any of us, would have approached therapy with
Speaker 5: such intentionality as as we do now. But now it's
Speaker 5: like this urgent need, and my kids all recognize that,
Speaker 5: you know, relationships take a lot of work. And I
Speaker 5: also think that they're not they're no longer terrified of
Speaker 5: the what ifs in life because we walked through them
Speaker 5: and we've survived, And you know, I think I'm walking
Speaker 5: in a lot more freedom with my kids now because
Speaker 5: I don't feel like I'm holding my breath when when
Speaker 5: when are they going to find out or when are
Speaker 5: they gonna you know, blame me or hate their dad
Speaker 5: or whatever. You know, I don't dabble in the wet
Speaker 5: ifs anymore. I just I just walk in reality and
Speaker 5: I just really take it day by day. And the
Speaker 5: Bible says, you know, leave the worries of tomorrow in tomorrow,
Speaker 5: just like what is right in front of me today,
Speaker 5: because today has enough worries of its own. And so,
Speaker 5: you know, I think my kids are doing well. They
Speaker 5: love your podcast, by the way, I think I DMD
Speaker 5: you and was like when you sent the request in
Speaker 5: for the podcast, and my kids are like sucking all
Speaker 5: the air out of the room. I love them.
Speaker 3: That's so sweet, you know, I appreciate. I hope people
Speaker 3: are really listening to what you're just talking about through
Speaker 3: the Book of Genesis and stuff, Lisa, because I'm one
Speaker 3: that appreciates the simplicity and complex situations, right, and when
Speaker 3: you're able to no matter the situation, when you're able
Speaker 3: to look at it and simplify it. It can really
Speaker 3: help with the process of walking through it, of living
Speaker 3: through it, a feeling through it if you just kind
Speaker 3: of keep that mindset, because it might be simple, but
Speaker 3: it's not easy, right. So I appreciate personally that analogy
Speaker 3: and that that comparison to the Book of Genesis, and
Speaker 3: I hope our listeners again really intently listen to that part.
Speaker 3: But we appreciate your time. We need to have you
Speaker 3: on every week because we have I know both of
Speaker 3: us have so many questions, so many more questions and
Speaker 3: topics we want to talk about because our timelines are
Speaker 3: so similar, our experiences are so similar. But we appreciate
Speaker 3: your time so much, Lisa, and we look forward to
Speaker 3: having you on again.
Speaker 2: And where can our listeners find you? And will you
Speaker 2: come back on for like a part three four, two,
Speaker 2: three four or five?
Speaker 5: Absolutely, But next time, y'all have to give me free therapy, Okay,
Speaker 5: So let us go back and forth on this thing.
Speaker 2: Fair.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Lisa Turkers.
Speaker 5: It's my name is y Essay. I know I have
Speaker 5: a very complicated name, but if you just go at
Speaker 5: l y Essay with a tea, then you'll find me,
Speaker 5: or you can go to my website Lisa Turkers dot com,
Speaker 5: or you can check out the ministry website Proverbs thirty
Speaker 5: one dot org.
Speaker 2: Lisa, thank you so much and we'll talk very soon.
Speaker 5: That sounds great.
Speaker 3: Thank you appreciate it.
Speaker 5: Bye bye.
Speaker 2: I really want to get Lisa back on the show
Speaker 2: because I honestly there's so many more questions than I
Speaker 2: would love for her to also answer some questions of
Speaker 2: some of our listeners too, Oh for sure.
Speaker 3: And I think again it's so fascinating because they didn't
Speaker 3: have a choice whether things came out. So many similarities,
Speaker 3: so I it's like I couldn't think fast enough at
Speaker 3: all the different questions I have for her. So we'll
Speaker 3: definitely get her back on. I mean, she's an unbelievable author,
Speaker 3: unbelievable person, so definitely have some more conversations with her.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's take a break and then let's do an email.
Speaker 2: Let's do it, hey, Mark, do we have any emails?
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, we do. This is from Lindsay.
Speaker 1: My husband owned a successful business and about four years
Speaker 1: ago he had an assistant that I felt was getting
Speaker 1: too friendly with him. I had just had our first child,
Speaker 1: and I admit I threw myself one hundred percent into
Speaker 1: my new mommy role and neglected my husband and our marriage.
Speaker 1: My husband swore to me they didn't have a physical affair,
Speaker 1: but they may have had more of an emotional relationship
Speaker 1: because it was lacking with me at the time. I
Speaker 1: have mutual friends with this girl, and one of them
Speaker 1: came to me and told me how much he talked
Speaker 1: about my husband and said she would totally hook up
Speaker 1: with my husband if he ever made a move. After
Speaker 1: crossing the line one too many times, I told my
Speaker 1: husband he had to choose her or me. He reduced
Speaker 1: her workloads so much that she had to quit and
Speaker 1: find another job. Fast forward to today. We're doing great.
Speaker 1: We've had another kid since then. Recently, his ex assistant
Speaker 1: got a job at another company that does a lot
Speaker 1: of work with my husband's company. I found out by
Speaker 1: checking my husband's phone that they've started emailing each other again,
Speaker 1: and so far what I can see, it's all been
Speaker 1: work related, But I worry about that emotional connection starting again.
Speaker 1: Do you think I need to bring this up to
Speaker 1: my husband and discuss my discomfort with the situation again,
Speaker 1: or should I just trust that he will remain faithful.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I personally do not think that they should
Speaker 2: be emailing again if and I one hundred percent think
Speaker 2: that she should go to her husband and say, hey,
Speaker 2: you know, I did see this in your email and
Speaker 2: it makes me uncomfortable. I'm sorry if I looked at
Speaker 2: your email, but this is what's coming up for me,
Speaker 2: and just say it from a really vulnerable place. And
Speaker 2: I think it's okay for her to question, like, why
Speaker 2: are you guys commune unicating again? Because I don't think
Speaker 2: they should be communicating again if they're not working together?
Speaker 4: Am I off? Based on that?
Speaker 3: I get what you're saying.
Speaker 2: But so.
Speaker 3: From the situation, the way I interpreted it was that
Speaker 3: she's working for a company that his company often works with,
Speaker 3: so they started communicating due to work. You know, work material.
Speaker 3: Work needs two things. One, if he was aware, which
Speaker 3: it's hard to say this, it's easier to say from
Speaker 3: the outside looking in for him to be like, hey,
Speaker 3: so and so works for this company. Now we had
Speaker 3: a cross paths because of this reason for work. I
Speaker 3: just wanted to bring it up.
Speaker 4: To you and let you know that would have been
Speaker 4: the great thing.
Speaker 3: To do for sure. But I but he.
Speaker 4: Probably doesn't feel like well that's the thing.
Speaker 3: As a guy. As a guy too, it's like he's
Speaker 3: not perfect, he might not be perfectly compartmentalizing. He's just like, Okay,
Speaker 3: this is work, Like, no matter who it is, it's
Speaker 3: just work. I never had anything with this woman.
Speaker 2: But it's somebody that affected his wife for sure. That's
Speaker 2: where I'm like, No.
Speaker 3: I know, women wish we were as aware as you guys. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but I'm just saying probably, you know, he probably wasn't. Also, yes,
Speaker 3: if she just goes to him from a good place
Speaker 3: and says, hey, this is coming up for me, this
Speaker 3: is bothering me. Can we figure this out? I don't
Speaker 3: think it's her place is to just immediately request please
Speaker 3: don't talk to her. I think it's like, hey, can
Speaker 3: we figure this out? Do you have to talk to
Speaker 3: her specifically? What is the reason for the work communication?
Speaker 3: And then go from there.
Speaker 2: Would it be okay to say, when you do talk
Speaker 2: to her, can I be Can I look at your
Speaker 2: email if I ask, or can you tell me like
Speaker 2: when you communicate with her?
Speaker 3: Because it bothers me just putting myself in his shoes.
Speaker 3: If she comes to him in a way of like, hey,
Speaker 3: here's the problem. Let's stand together, look at the problem.
Speaker 3: Let's figure out the best solution, instead of her coming
Speaker 3: saying like you can't talk to her, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, Because then it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa,
Speaker 3: Like this is for work, you know, still nothing ever
Speaker 3: did happen.
Speaker 4: But what lines?
Speaker 2: I'm curious what lines were crossed, because there's still I mean,
Speaker 2: just like a lot of people, I mean, emotional affairs
Speaker 2: are just as deadly as physical affairs. They're just as hurtful.
Speaker 2: They're just as harmful. And to have that connection.
Speaker 3: I think the one thing is that the first time
Speaker 3: when she requested, like hey, her or me, he lessened
Speaker 3: her hours and she ended up leaving. So like he
Speaker 3: abided by the boundaries the first time around. It didn't
Speaker 3: seem like he gave her shit for it. It didn't
Speaker 3: seem like he fought against it. Yeah, he complied with
Speaker 3: the request and he you know, went through with it.
Speaker 3: So I just think again, just to be careful here,
Speaker 3: Lindsey and approach it as, Hey, you and I are
Speaker 3: a team. This is the problem. Let's figure out the
Speaker 3: most appropriate solution. For this together.
Speaker 2: And I feel like the second that you start talking
Speaker 2: about your spouse to another man like issues is when
Speaker 2: you're opening the door for that spouse to come in.
Speaker 2: Whether you think you're doing that or not, I think
Speaker 2: that's a very open door because they know, like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I can, I can come in here. Right, it's not good,
Speaker 2: So hopefully that's not what he did either.
Speaker 4: What do you say, babe?
Speaker 3: What a show.
Speaker 4: We'll see you next week. We'll still be quarantining. Bye.