WEBVTT - Keeping the Faith 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:05.920 Wind Down with Janet Kramer, an iHeartRadio podcast. 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:10.080 The Gangs in Vancouver. Hey guys, we're finally on like 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:12.520 the West coast with you guys. This is kind of nice. 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.760 Yeah, same time, real time, same time. 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:16.120 Real time. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:21.720 We're in Vancouver. We are quarantining right now. We are 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:26.560 very fortunate because we're in a house which my one 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.120 director friend who directed the last movie I was in, 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:36.640 he was in a small one bedroom like hotel for 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.800 fourteen days. I don't think I could do it, like 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.680 not being able to just because here at least we're 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:44.879 able to escape like downstairs or. 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:46.960 Outside. 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:49.959 I mean, he couldn't even go outside like that just 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.559 like gives me so much anxiety thinking about that. 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.080 Even for me who loves you know, my me time 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:00.440 and isolation after like a third day, like get me 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:02.760 out of here. I'm good, but like I. 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.200 Think my issues and you know, if I'm being totally honest, 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.280 the first night or the first morning that I woke 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:14.400 up in this place was I had really bad anxiety 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.959 because it's just being told you can't leave is what 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.120 gives me, like being feeling I'm trapped and that that's 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.840 kind of where my PTSD comes from. You know from 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:28.800 that long time ago, and so just like that feeling 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.480 of like trapped and oh my gosh, what if something happens? 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.440 And but then that's when I go through everything in 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.240 my brain like Okay, well what can happen, Jana, like 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:40.880 what would happen? You know, and kind of have like 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.880 an answer for the follow up does that make sense? 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:47.199 Yeah? So when you get that way on the plane, 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.560 what do you say? What are my options? 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.200 My options are, you will land this plane right now, 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:57.280 and look, anything can happen. You can always land a plate, 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:58.680 but you don't want to be that person to land 0:01:58.720 --> 0:01:59.720 the plane anything. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.680 I've been, you know this morning when you like nudge 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.160 me and like Jolie's walking around, I had not vertigo, 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:10.320 but that feeling where because we're so tired last night 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.640 and I crashed so hard. When I woke up, I 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:15.120 was like trying to get my bearings. I didn't know 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.880 where the hell we were. I was like expecting to 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.640 wake up and see our room, but I'm like it 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:23.440 was all different. It just took me in like that 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.320 split second that felt like in eternity, am I dreaming? 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:30.160 Where the hell are we? What is going on? 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:31.320 Yeah? 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.280 It's it's crazy, but it's something my therapist told me, 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.520 which was super helpful. She's like, when you get in 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.919 that anxious place, like go to gratitude, go to being 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.959 grateful that you know you're able to spend this time 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.720 with your kids and you know, have really one on 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:51.120 one time with them. So that's where I'm trying. 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:52.320 To go, you know, yeah, for sure. 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:54.720 And then knowing we were kind of getting bored in 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:56.959 Nashville because i mean, we've pretty much been quarantined and 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:58.720 stuck in our house for the last year, so it's 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:00.200 nice to have a little bit of a change up. 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:01.760 Yeah, if we're gonna do it, might as we'll do 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:06.200 it somewhere new and exciting and fresh. And except this morning, 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.840 we were trying not to blow our low too quick because. 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.359 We're like, that's nice, like dad, don't use all the cards. 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:13.520 Let's play Hide and go seek, let's play tag, let's 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:15.440 play free tag, let's play Simon says, let's play right 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:17.920 light green light. Like whoa, whoa, whoa. We're throwing our 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.840 whole parental bag at the kids in the first morning. Yeah, 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.480 So it's like even this afternoon, we're like, okay, what now. 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.720 And we have so many more days to go. I 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:33.400 am really excited about today's episode in Today's guest, But 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.360 before we talk about who's coming on, let's. 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:36.920 Take a quick break. 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:54.720 So I had someone reach out to me a couple 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.880 months ago, and I'd heard of Lisa, but I really 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:03.360 didn't know her story. Lisa Turkhurst is an amazing author. 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:05.480 She's a number one New York Times bestselling author of 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.680 It's Not Supposed to Be This Way Uninvited, in twenty 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:13.760 other books. The book that I'm reading right now is 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.800 Forgetting What you Can't Forget, and I'm halfway through it 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.400 and there's just so many times when I'm reading the 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:22.960 book I'm like, oh, yeah, Like it's just she's a 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.560 really good author. But she also has such a personal 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.560 story as well that she writes in our book in 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:31.840 her books, and so I'm really, really really pumped to 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:36.520 have her on because she's a big deal. Oh yeah, 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.280 is she a minute like because she works with ministries. 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:41.800 No, I don't think she's personally a minister, but a 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.560 lot of her stuff has you know, religious backing and 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:51.000 religious and Christian beliefs and motivation and stuff behind it. 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.719 So big believer in Christ and big believer in God 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:56.400 and Follower. So you know, that's a lot of what 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.400 she talks about at speaking engagements and in her books, 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.080 you know, she mentions that, and so I'm curious to 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.360 talk to her about that aspect of it and has 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.279 that been something that she's always had in her life 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:10.120 or is this something with the events that she's gone 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.080 through personally it became stronger, you know what I mean. 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:17.360 So that and also she also does she has online 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:21.400 Bible studies and then workbooks along to go with her books. 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:25.200 So I'm super pumped to get her on. So why 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:26.360 don't we just get her on now? 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:28.120 Let's do it. 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:28.680 Hi. 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:31.440 Hello, good to see you, guys. 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:34.559 Good to see you. How are you doing great? 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:35.160 Thank you? 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.680 First of all, I'm just so thankful that you're coming 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:39.440 on this podcast. 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:39.880 Thank you. 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:42.960 I have so many people that reach out to me 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:46.760 and say that you know, our stories are similar, and 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:52.000 you know, to read your books, and I cannot tell 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.440 you how much I'm loving forgiving what you can't forget. 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.320 I now I want to go back because I want 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:02.680 to know more you know about about everything, But I 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.640 guess I just kind of want to jump in you 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.520 in the book, you said you were married was it 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:10.560 thirty years before? 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:15.040 Almost thirty years Yeah, so at the time that this happened, 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:21.240 it was I think we had been married twenty five years. 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:21.599 Wow. 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:24.000 And it's it's interesting because when I was reading your 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:25.880 book and something that I was just like shaking my 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:28.800 head on the plane too. It's it's the like your 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.680 own personal BC and AD, which usually means before Christ 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.520 but it was whenever we have conversation, it's like, well, 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.839 it's like before the affair or and it's just it 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:42.320 registered so much with me because everything is before that 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:42.880 or after. 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.359 But how did you How did. 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:48.599 Did he come to you? Because I don't know that 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.880 that story. I know that's which which book is that. 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:55.400 In It's not supposed to be this way, but I 0:06:55.400 --> 0:07:00.200 don't typically talk about how the revelation came. But yeah, 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.400 I can tell you he did not come to me. 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:08.120 I discovered it, which, again, for the forgiveness journey, makes 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:09.159 it even harder. 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:10.360 So hard. 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.400 And I think that's something where when people come to 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:15.160 us and they say that they told them, I'm like, 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:19.280 that's that's almost a gift that they gave the other person, 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.760 because for me, I'm like, what I would have given 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.120 for you to be to have. It's not that respect, 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.400 but just like that honesty, you know, just knowing that, 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:30.120 like you respect me enough to even though you've hurt 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:32.480 me to know that it's. 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:33.680 You know, to come to me and tell me. 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:34.880 Yeah. 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:38.880 So I definitely empathize with you on that. And when 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.160 did you go okay, like this is worth fighting for. 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:48.360 I think I had that revelation right from the very beginning. 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:51.960 I mean, part of it is we have five grand kids, 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:56.560 and in twenty sixteen, three of our five kids were 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:00.000 getting married, and so there were a lot of dynamic 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:09.160 in play. But I never ever had this feeling of like. 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.400 I don't want to be married. I've never had that feeling. 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.520 And so I think for some people, you know, when 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:19.640 they find out there were there are already some dynamics 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.360 in place where it's kind of like, uh, you know, 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:24.640 I don't even know if I want to be married 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.480 to this person anymore. That was not the situation with me. 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.680 I mean my husband, I've you know, met him when 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:32.800 I was young. I was in my early twenties. We 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:37.480 got married when I was young, and I never I 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:39.480 never had that feeling of I don't want to be married. 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:41.400 And I definitely never had the feeling that I didn't 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.320 want to be married to him, and so the whole 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.560 thing was so shocking to me. I don't know that 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:50.400 it ever occurred to me not to fight for. 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:54.680 The marriage and remind myself and our listeners. So that 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:59.559 was twenty sixteen that discovery happened. Yes, okay, so that's 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.520 the same Yeah, timeline is us, Yeah, same. 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.360 Year, Dan, That year sucked for us. Huh. 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.400 Yeah. Yeah, that was a very very hard year. So 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:14.240 of course it's like before two thy sixteen, after twenty sixteen, 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.080 you know. And what's so complicated is I look back 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:23.040 on pictures, like especially from twenty fifteen, when you know, 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.240 I just didn't know what I didn't know that year, 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:28.959 and I look at the Christmas card picture, I look 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:33.800 at family vacation pictures, and it's they I really wrestled 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:40.319 through having to to make peace with those memories. And 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.440 at first I just wanted to throw everything away. I 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.280 just I was just so shocked. But then I kind 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.480 of had this revelation that if those were beautiful memories 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.400 to me, I get to keep them, and whatever's too painful, 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.240 I can throw those away. But I don't want pain 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:00.560 to go back and rewrite the memories, because you know, 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:04.400 there were beautiful memories that were still made and I 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:05.720 didn't want to throw them all away. 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.360 I have a couple of questions around that topic because 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.920 we just kind of experienced that just a week or 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:13.800 two ago, because it was our daughter's fifth birthday and 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:15.719 so you know, Janna was going back and looking at 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:17.400 pictures when she was born that we were showing our 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.520 daughter and that she posted on social media, and it 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:24.200 brings that stuff up for both of us. And I know, 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.080 just from my side of things personally too, it's just 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:31.240 as hard in a different way to look at that. Granted, 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.360 mine has a history of addiction attached to it. So 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:35.959 I look at those pictures, I'm like, I don't even 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.840 know who the hell I was. Does your husband have 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:42.160 some kind of you know, shame or feelings around that 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.920 where he looks back and he's just he hits him 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:45.440 again too. 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:51.360 Yes, And you know, our story again very similar, is 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.240 there were a lot of addictions that were at play, 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.840 and you know, the addiction cycle is brutal, and so 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.920 you know, I feel like it's something even even today, 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:08.160 we're still navigating, you know, And I mean, you can 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:12.800 you can be on the road to healing. But those 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.160 addictions are so powerful, and if you don't stay on 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:19.840 top of them constantly every single day, they can start 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.600 to creep back up. So you know, my heart goes 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:28.040 out to you because I very much know that I 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.720 have to say to myself sometimes I'm you know, especially 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.600 back then, my counselor taught me to say, you are 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:37.520 not talking to the husband that you know and love, 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:42.160 you are talking to the addiction. And that helped me 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.560 because when the addiction was just so stirred up and 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:51.600 so all consuming, I found myself in love with the 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:55.160 idea of who I knew my husband could be, rather 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:58.959 than being honest with myself about what was actually happening. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.680 But when my counselor talk to me and just said, 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:03.800 you need to put a pillow in front of your 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.439 face right now, when he's active in his addiction, you're 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.800 talking to the addiction, but that pillow, you're not actually 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:12.560 talking to the husband that you know and love. 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:15.000 That's so true. 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:16.840 I want to go back to the because I was 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:18.559 what you said. I was, you know, reading that in 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.600 the book as well, like you want to enjoy your 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.120 wedding album again, and I want to be able to, 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.360 you know, look back on our baby moon and all 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.959 these things. But it's like, and I know that my 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:31.800 therapist that's kind of said the same thing, like, those 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.079 are your memories. You don't have to to forget those, 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.840 But how do you stop yourself from ruminating? Ruminating because 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:40.720 that's where I go. I'm like, oh, well that was 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:45.120 when this happened, And I'm not able to look at 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:48.360 the happy memories because I can't stop myself from going 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.400 to well he was off doing X, Y and Z. 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:57.160 It's a great question, and I think it's attention to manage. 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.720 It's not going to be a problem to solve. And 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.040 what I mean by that is there are going to 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.400 be some days where you're fine with it, and then 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.360 there are going to be other days where, for whatever reason, 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:12.320 it becomes a major trigger. And in terms of forgiveness, 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.520 you know, that's why it was really important to me 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:19.760 not to say forgive and forget, because that's not in 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.319 the Bible, and honestly, I'm not even sure that that's 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:29.760 honestly possible. And it does say in the Bible that 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.000 God takes our sins and casts them to the depths 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:33.640 of the sea, and remembers them no more. But I 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:36.080 could not find in the Bible where humans have the 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:40.400 ability to forgive and forget. We can forgive and at 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:44.000 the same time remember the pain and walk through the process. 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:47.199 That's why forgiveness is both a decision and a process, 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.079 and it's important to make room for both. You make 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.280 the one time decision to forgive for the fact of 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:55.640 what happened, but then you have to walk through the 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.840 very long process of forgiving for the impact that this 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.400 has had on you. And there was a there was 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:05.040 an emotional debt created. So if it was a five 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.520 dollars debt, like someone inconvenienced you, you can probably forgive 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.840 and forget. But when it's betrayal and the most sacred relationship, 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.320 the most sacred human relationship you have, that's like a 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.000 five million dollar debt. Of course you're going to remember it. 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:20.760 So you just have to be honest with yourself. And 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:22.960 some days you're going to be okay looking at those 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.520 pictures and other days you're not. But you know, the 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.400 choice is really like I said, it's attention to manage. 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:34.600 It's not a problem to solve. And over time, this 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:38.920 is what I'm finding. Over time, the goodness of today 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:44.120 can help backfill some some pieces and parts of the 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:49.640 past story. And you you, guys, this is this is 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.440 your journey. So you guys get to talk about it, 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:54.720 you get to land on it, You get to decide 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:56.880 what questions will you ask them, what questions will you 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:02.400 not ask? And you get to decide are there spaces 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.480 where even when you look at those pictures, that the 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:11.240 authentic husband that you know and love was there, and 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.520 the other parts the addiction was there. But you get 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.320 to navigate that because it's your journey and there's no 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.760 right or wrong way to do it, you know, it's 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:27.080 just that that is one of the brutal consequences of infidelity. 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:32.120 Yeah, I feel like that helps with also like knowing that, Okay, 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:34.840 I might be able to look at this one day 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.400 and be happy with it, but then also give myself 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.320 grace when the next day I might be like, how 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:41.040 could you you know, like and then have that. 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.200 So I think that's a good reminder. 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.640 As you know, being a follower of Christ and you 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.360 know religion and everything. Has that always been a part 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.760 of your personal life, of your relationship with your husband 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.960 or did it increase once you guys went through this 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:58.040 trauma together. 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:05.640 I think it's been a pretty consistent part of our relationship. 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.800 But I think what's so hard is it's hard for 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:13.320 me to reconcile the addiction and at the same time 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.960 a relationship with Christ because those two things don't match 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:21.560 in my brain. But at the same time, I know 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:26.560 addiction is not my issue, but I have issues and 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:31.600 sometimes I step knee deep into sin. And I very 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.320 much love Jesus. So you know, I heard a really 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:39.000 good quote recently. My counselor said, you're either in empathy 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:44.000 or judgment. There's no one between. And so I've started 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.360 to ask myself, you know, who do I really want 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:51.600 to be? And I want to be somebody who represents Jesus. 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.680 And Jesus didn't walk around in judgment. He walked around 0:16:54.720 --> 0:17:01.000 in empathy because he saw the plight of of humanity. 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.560 It is a brutal journey to be human and live 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:09.040 in a sin soaked world. So here's the caution. Though 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.200 you can be in empathy and at the same time 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.560 draw really secure boundaries, and boundaries aren't meant to shove 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.840 another person away. Boundaries are meant to hold yourself together. 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.480 And so when you've been the one that's been betrayed. 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.480 For me, I want to walk in empathy, but at 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.919 the same time, I want to have boundaries to say 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:35.800 this is acceptable, this is not acceptable. And this is 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:37.719 an area that we still need to do some therapy 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:39.480 around because I can't figure it out. 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:45.359 How has your husband been with the publicity of you know, 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.840 y'all's relationship, what you've been through personally? Was that something 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.119 he was supportive of from the beginning. Was that something 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:52.520 you know he had shame around? 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.560 Yeah, and and why did you want to share? I mean, 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.680 I know our reasons, but in wondering if they're aligned. 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:03.800 To well to some extent, we didn't get to have 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.399 that choice because I live a pretty public life, and 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:12.120 so things were coming out and our story was either 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.040 going to be told in the rumor mil or we 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.520 could get ahead of it and tell it, you know, 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:21.680 with truth. So unfortunately we didn't really have a choice. 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:26.359 The story was going to come out. But my husband 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:31.320 had a really healthy perspective right from the beginning. You know, 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:36.479 he would say the day that everything came out was 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:38.800 simultaneously the worst day of his life and the best 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.280 day of his life. It was the worst day because 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.440 everybody knew. It was the best day because now everybody knew. 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.400 And so he would say, now when he walks into 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:49.919 a room, he doesn't have to figure out who knows 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.920 and who doesn't know. He walks into a room, now 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:57.200 he assumes everyone knows. Therefore he gets to choose how 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.960 he walks in the room. And he said he could 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.760 walk in as a villain, but he realizes we have 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.480 an enemy and it's not him, or he could walk 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.520 in as a victim. You know, he's had past traumas 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.360 that very much fed into this. But he doesn't want 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.080 to be a victim. He wants to walk in that 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:17.480 room as a redeemed man walking in victory. And he 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:19.600 always says he'll be the safest person. 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:19.800 In the room. 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.879 I love that because I mean, me and our stories 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.119 really do mirror each other because we're the same and 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.040 we didn't really have a choice, and even though we didn't, 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.720 I still kind of wanted to sweep things under the rug, 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.200 and just I wanted to avoid and I was telling 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:36.639 jan it's like, if we just don't talk about it, 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:38.880 it'll go away. And that was just me being naive. 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.160 And now I think back on it, and what your 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:44.280 husband said. The way he said it is so true 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.720 because I don't have that fear of maybe they're acting 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.160 weird towards me because they know but not everyone else does. 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.480 I'm like, I am who I am everyone here, even 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.000 if I don't know you, you know me to an extent, 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:00.280 so whatever here, I am. So I love how you 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:02.639 know he said that, because that just definitely registers for 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:04.880 me now. It didn't at first, but it does. 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:09.400 I guess I want to ask, because we're the same 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:13.880 years since discovery, do you still have those days where 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:18.240 it's it's not unmanageable, but you have such like still 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:22.199 anger in your heart and you might lash out or 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.040 is it just me asking for a friend. 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:32.639 Asking for a friend l of course, of course, of 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:38.520 course you still get triggered. Of course that pain still 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:43.320 comes up. Of course it does. And it's so good 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:47.920 for me to talk to other women who walk this journey, 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:52.600 because sometimes I seriously feel like I'm the crazy one, 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.120 Like what in the world you know I should be? 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:56.920 I should be better by now, I should be more 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:02.600 healed by now. But human relationship are so complex. On 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.480 the one level, it seems kind of simple, like be nice, 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.679 be empathetic, you know, love each other, you know what 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:12.280 I'm saying, But I mean there's complexities that we've in 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:15.960 and out of a relationship, and you double triple that 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:20.359 when there's been trauma in the relationship. So I just 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.280 want to say, of course, you still struggle some days 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:26.240 with anger, and it doesn't mean you're not forgiving. If 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:29.080 you've made the decision to forgive. Now you're just in 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:33.240 the process of figuring out the impact that this had 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.960 on you. And it is okay that you have days 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:41.000 that are better than others, and it's okay that these 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:44.399 feelings bubble up, but it is your choice what you 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:49.320 do with them. And so for me, it's important for 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:51.560 me to be honest about how I feel. But I 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:54.639 don't always need to process all of those feelings with 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.159 my husband. I definitely don't need to process them with 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:01.360 you know, certain family members who can't handle that. It's 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:03.800 really good for me to process it with my counselor. 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:07.600 And or if you don't have a counselor, then a 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:12.520 safe friend who has a lot of love for both 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:17.320