1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer, an iHeartRadio podcast. 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 2: The Gangs in Vancouver. Hey guys, we're finally on like 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 2: the West coast with you guys. This is kind of nice. 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, same time, real time, same time. 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 4: Real time. 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: We're in Vancouver. We are quarantining right now. We are 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 2: very fortunate because we're in a house which my one 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: director friend who directed the last movie I was in, 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: he was in a small one bedroom like hotel for 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: fourteen days. I don't think I could do it, like 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 2: not being able to just because here at least we're 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 2: able to escape like downstairs or. 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 4: Outside. 14 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,959 Speaker 2: I mean, he couldn't even go outside like that just 15 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 2: like gives me so much anxiety thinking about that. 16 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 3: Even for me who loves you know, my me time 17 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 3: and isolation after like a third day, like get me 18 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 3: out of here. I'm good, but like I. 19 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: Think my issues and you know, if I'm being totally honest, 20 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: the first night or the first morning that I woke 21 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 2: up in this place was I had really bad anxiety 22 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: because it's just being told you can't leave is what 23 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: gives me, like being feeling I'm trapped and that that's 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: kind of where my PTSD comes from. You know from 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 2: that long time ago, and so just like that feeling 26 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 2: of like trapped and oh my gosh, what if something happens? 27 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 2: And but then that's when I go through everything in 28 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 2: my brain like Okay, well what can happen, Jana, like 29 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 2: what would happen? You know, and kind of have like 30 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: an answer for the follow up does that make sense? 31 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 3: Yeah? So when you get that way on the plane, 32 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 3: what do you say? What are my options? 33 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: My options are, you will land this plane right now, 34 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: and look, anything can happen. You can always land a plate, 35 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: but you don't want to be that person to land 36 00:01:58,720 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: the plane anything. 37 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 3: I've been, you know this morning when you like nudge 38 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 3: me and like Jolie's walking around, I had not vertigo, 39 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 3: but that feeling where because we're so tired last night 40 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 3: and I crashed so hard. When I woke up, I 41 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 3: was like trying to get my bearings. I didn't know 42 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 3: where the hell we were. I was like expecting to 43 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 3: wake up and see our room, but I'm like it 44 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 3: was all different. It just took me in like that 45 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 3: split second that felt like in eternity, am I dreaming? 46 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 3: Where the hell are we? What is going on? 47 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 5: Yeah? 48 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: It's it's crazy, but it's something my therapist told me, 49 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: which was super helpful. She's like, when you get in 50 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 2: that anxious place, like go to gratitude, go to being 51 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 2: grateful that you know you're able to spend this time 52 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: with your kids and you know, have really one on 53 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: one time with them. So that's where I'm trying. 54 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 3: To go, you know, yeah, for sure. 55 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: And then knowing we were kind of getting bored in 56 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 2: Nashville because i mean, we've pretty much been quarantined and 57 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: stuck in our house for the last year, so it's 58 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 2: nice to have a little bit of a change up. 59 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, if we're gonna do it, might as we'll do 60 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: it somewhere new and exciting and fresh. And except this morning, 61 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 3: we were trying not to blow our low too quick because. 62 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 4: We're like, that's nice, like dad, don't use all the cards. 63 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 3: Let's play Hide and go seek, let's play tag, let's 64 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 3: play free tag, let's play Simon says, let's play right 65 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 3: light green light. Like whoa, whoa, whoa. We're throwing our 66 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 3: whole parental bag at the kids in the first morning. Yeah, 67 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: So it's like even this afternoon, we're like, okay, what now. 68 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: And we have so many more days to go. I 69 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 2: am really excited about today's episode in Today's guest, But 70 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: before we talk about who's coming on, let's. 71 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 4: Take a quick break. 72 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: So I had someone reach out to me a couple 73 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: months ago, and I'd heard of Lisa, but I really 74 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 2: didn't know her story. Lisa Turkhurst is an amazing author. 75 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: She's a number one New York Times bestselling author of 76 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 2: It's Not Supposed to Be This Way Uninvited, in twenty 77 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: other books. The book that I'm reading right now is 78 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: Forgetting What you Can't Forget, and I'm halfway through it 79 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 2: and there's just so many times when I'm reading the 80 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: book I'm like, oh, yeah, Like it's just she's a 81 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: really good author. But she also has such a personal 82 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: story as well that she writes in our book in 83 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 2: her books, and so I'm really, really really pumped to 84 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: have her on because she's a big deal. Oh yeah, 85 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 2: is she a minute like because she works with ministries. 86 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: No, I don't think she's personally a minister, but a 87 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 3: lot of her stuff has you know, religious backing and 88 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 3: religious and Christian beliefs and motivation and stuff behind it. 89 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 3: So big believer in Christ and big believer in God 90 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: and Follower. So you know, that's a lot of what 91 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 3: she talks about at speaking engagements and in her books, 92 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 3: you know, she mentions that, and so I'm curious to 93 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 3: talk to her about that aspect of it and has 94 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 3: that been something that she's always had in her life 95 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 3: or is this something with the events that she's gone 96 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 3: through personally it became stronger, you know what I mean. 97 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 2: So that and also she also does she has online 98 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: Bible studies and then workbooks along to go with her books. 99 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 4: So I'm super pumped to get her on. So why 100 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 4: don't we just get her on now? 101 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 3: Let's do it. 102 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: Hi. 103 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 5: Hello, good to see you, guys. 104 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,559 Speaker 4: Good to see you. How are you doing great? 105 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 5: Thank you? 106 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: First of all, I'm just so thankful that you're coming 107 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: on this podcast. 108 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 4: Thank you. 109 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: I have so many people that reach out to me 110 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: and say that you know, our stories are similar, and 111 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: you know, to read your books, and I cannot tell 112 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: you how much I'm loving forgiving what you can't forget. 113 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: I now I want to go back because I want 114 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 2: to know more you know about about everything, But I 115 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: guess I just kind of want to jump in you 116 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: in the book, you said you were married was it 117 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 2: thirty years before? 118 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 5: Almost thirty years Yeah, so at the time that this happened, 119 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 5: it was I think we had been married twenty five years. 120 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 4: Wow. 121 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: And it's it's interesting because when I was reading your 122 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: book and something that I was just like shaking my 123 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: head on the plane too. It's it's the like your 124 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: own personal BC and AD, which usually means before Christ 125 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: but it was whenever we have conversation, it's like, well, 126 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 2: it's like before the affair or and it's just it 127 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: registered so much with me because everything is before that 128 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: or after. 129 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 4: But how did you How did. 130 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 2: Did he come to you? Because I don't know that 131 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: that story. I know that's which which book is that. 132 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 5: In It's not supposed to be this way, but I 133 00:06:55,400 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 5: don't typically talk about how the revelation came. But yeah, 134 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 5: I can tell you he did not come to me. 135 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 5: I discovered it, which, again, for the forgiveness journey, makes 136 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 5: it even harder. 137 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 4: So hard. 138 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 2: And I think that's something where when people come to 139 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 2: us and they say that they told them, I'm like, 140 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: that's that's almost a gift that they gave the other person, 141 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: because for me, I'm like, what I would have given 142 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: for you to be to have. It's not that respect, 143 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 2: but just like that honesty, you know, just knowing that, 144 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 2: like you respect me enough to even though you've hurt 145 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: me to know that it's. 146 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 4: You know, to come to me and tell me. 147 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 5: Yeah. 148 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: So I definitely empathize with you on that. And when 149 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 2: did you go okay, like this is worth fighting for. 150 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 2: I think I had that revelation right from the very beginning. 151 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: I mean, part of it is we have five grand kids, 152 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 2: and in twenty sixteen, three of our five kids were 153 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: getting married, and so there were a lot of dynamic 154 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: in play. But I never ever had this feeling of like. 155 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 5: I don't want to be married. I've never had that feeling. 156 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 5: And so I think for some people, you know, when 157 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 5: they find out there were there are already some dynamics 158 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 5: in place where it's kind of like, uh, you know, 159 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 5: I don't even know if I want to be married 160 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 5: to this person anymore. That was not the situation with me. 161 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 5: I mean my husband, I've you know, met him when 162 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 5: I was young. I was in my early twenties. We 163 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 5: got married when I was young, and I never I 164 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 5: never had that feeling of I don't want to be married. 165 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 5: And I definitely never had the feeling that I didn't 166 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 5: want to be married to him, and so the whole 167 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 5: thing was so shocking to me. I don't know that 168 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 5: it ever occurred to me not to fight for. 169 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 3: The marriage and remind myself and our listeners. So that 170 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 3: was twenty sixteen that discovery happened. Yes, okay, so that's 171 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 3: the same Yeah, timeline is us, Yeah, same. 172 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 4: Year, Dan, That year sucked for us. Huh. 173 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, that was a very very hard year. So 174 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 5: of course it's like before two thy sixteen, after twenty sixteen, 175 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 5: you know. And what's so complicated is I look back 176 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 5: on pictures, like especially from twenty fifteen, when you know, 177 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 5: I just didn't know what I didn't know that year, 178 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 5: and I look at the Christmas card picture, I look 179 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 5: at family vacation pictures, and it's they I really wrestled 180 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 5: through having to to make peace with those memories. And 181 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 5: at first I just wanted to throw everything away. I 182 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 5: just I was just so shocked. But then I kind 183 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 5: of had this revelation that if those were beautiful memories 184 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 5: to me, I get to keep them, and whatever's too painful, 185 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 5: I can throw those away. But I don't want pain 186 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 5: to go back and rewrite the memories, because you know, 187 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 5: there were beautiful memories that were still made and I 188 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 5: didn't want to throw them all away. 189 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 3: I have a couple of questions around that topic because 190 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: we just kind of experienced that just a week or 191 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 3: two ago, because it was our daughter's fifth birthday and 192 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 3: so you know, Janna was going back and looking at 193 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 3: pictures when she was born that we were showing our 194 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 3: daughter and that she posted on social media, and it 195 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 3: brings that stuff up for both of us. And I know, 196 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 3: just from my side of things personally too, it's just 197 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 3: as hard in a different way to look at that. Granted, 198 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 3: mine has a history of addiction attached to it. So 199 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 3: I look at those pictures, I'm like, I don't even 200 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 3: know who the hell I was. Does your husband have 201 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 3: some kind of you know, shame or feelings around that 202 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 3: where he looks back and he's just he hits him 203 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 3: again too. 204 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 5: Yes, And you know, our story again very similar, is 205 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 5: there were a lot of addictions that were at play, 206 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 5: and you know, the addiction cycle is brutal, and so 207 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 5: you know, I feel like it's something even even today, 208 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 5: we're still navigating, you know, And I mean, you can 209 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 5: you can be on the road to healing. But those 210 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 5: addictions are so powerful, and if you don't stay on 211 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 5: top of them constantly every single day, they can start 212 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 5: to creep back up. So you know, my heart goes 213 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 5: out to you because I very much know that I 214 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 5: have to say to myself sometimes I'm you know, especially 215 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 5: back then, my counselor taught me to say, you are 216 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 5: not talking to the husband that you know and love, 217 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 5: you are talking to the addiction. And that helped me 218 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 5: because when the addiction was just so stirred up and 219 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 5: so all consuming, I found myself in love with the 220 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 5: idea of who I knew my husband could be, rather 221 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 5: than being honest with myself about what was actually happening. 222 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 5: But when my counselor talk to me and just said, 223 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 5: you need to put a pillow in front of your 224 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 5: face right now, when he's active in his addiction, you're 225 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 5: talking to the addiction, but that pillow, you're not actually 226 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 5: talking to the husband that you know and love. 227 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 4: That's so true. 228 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 2: I want to go back to the because I was 229 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 2: what you said. I was, you know, reading that in 230 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: the book as well, like you want to enjoy your 231 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 2: wedding album again, and I want to be able to, 232 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 2: you know, look back on our baby moon and all 233 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,959 Speaker 2: these things. But it's like, and I know that my 234 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: therapist that's kind of said the same thing, like, those 235 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 2: are your memories. You don't have to to forget those, 236 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 2: But how do you stop yourself from ruminating? Ruminating because 237 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: that's where I go. I'm like, oh, well that was 238 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 2: when this happened, And I'm not able to look at 239 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: the happy memories because I can't stop myself from going 240 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 2: to well he was off doing X, Y and Z. 241 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 5: It's a great question, and I think it's attention to manage. 242 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 5: It's not going to be a problem to solve. And 243 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 5: what I mean by that is there are going to 244 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 5: be some days where you're fine with it, and then 245 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 5: there are going to be other days where, for whatever reason, 246 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 5: it becomes a major trigger. And in terms of forgiveness, 247 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 5: you know, that's why it was really important to me 248 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 5: not to say forgive and forget, because that's not in 249 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 5: the Bible, and honestly, I'm not even sure that that's 250 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 5: honestly possible. And it does say in the Bible that 251 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 5: God takes our sins and casts them to the depths 252 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 5: of the sea, and remembers them no more. But I 253 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 5: could not find in the Bible where humans have the 254 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 5: ability to forgive and forget. We can forgive and at 255 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 5: the same time remember the pain and walk through the process. 256 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 5: That's why forgiveness is both a decision and a process, 257 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 5: and it's important to make room for both. You make 258 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 5: the one time decision to forgive for the fact of 259 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 5: what happened, but then you have to walk through the 260 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 5: very long process of forgiving for the impact that this 261 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 5: has had on you. And there was a there was 262 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 5: an emotional debt created. So if it was a five 263 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 5: dollars debt, like someone inconvenienced you, you can probably forgive 264 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 5: and forget. But when it's betrayal and the most sacred relationship, 265 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 5: the most sacred human relationship you have, that's like a 266 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 5: five million dollar debt. Of course you're going to remember it. 267 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 5: So you just have to be honest with yourself. And 268 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 5: some days you're going to be okay looking at those 269 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 5: pictures and other days you're not. But you know, the 270 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 5: choice is really like I said, it's attention to manage. 271 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 5: It's not a problem to solve. And over time, this 272 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 5: is what I'm finding. Over time, the goodness of today 273 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 5: can help backfill some some pieces and parts of the 274 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 5: past story. And you you, guys, this is this is 275 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 5: your journey. So you guys get to talk about it, 276 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 5: you get to land on it, You get to decide 277 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 5: what questions will you ask them, what questions will you 278 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 5: not ask? And you get to decide are there spaces 279 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 5: where even when you look at those pictures, that the 280 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 5: authentic husband that you know and love was there, and 281 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 5: the other parts the addiction was there. But you get 282 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 5: to navigate that because it's your journey and there's no 283 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 5: right or wrong way to do it, you know, it's 284 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 5: just that that is one of the brutal consequences of infidelity. 285 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like that helps with also like knowing that, Okay, 286 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: I might be able to look at this one day 287 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 2: and be happy with it, but then also give myself 288 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 2: grace when the next day I might be like, how 289 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 2: could you you know, like and then have that. 290 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 4: So I think that's a good reminder. 291 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 3: As you know, being a follower of Christ and you 292 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 3: know religion and everything. Has that always been a part 293 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 3: of your personal life, of your relationship with your husband 294 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 3: or did it increase once you guys went through this 295 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 3: trauma together. 296 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 5: I think it's been a pretty consistent part of our relationship. 297 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 5: But I think what's so hard is it's hard for 298 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 5: me to reconcile the addiction and at the same time 299 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 5: a relationship with Christ because those two things don't match 300 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 5: in my brain. But at the same time, I know 301 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 5: addiction is not my issue, but I have issues and 302 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 5: sometimes I step knee deep into sin. And I very 303 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 5: much love Jesus. So you know, I heard a really 304 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 5: good quote recently. My counselor said, you're either in empathy 305 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 5: or judgment. There's no one between. And so I've started 306 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 5: to ask myself, you know, who do I really want 307 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 5: to be? And I want to be somebody who represents Jesus. 308 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 5: And Jesus didn't walk around in judgment. He walked around 309 00:16:54,720 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 5: in empathy because he saw the plight of of humanity. 310 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 5: It is a brutal journey to be human and live 311 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 5: in a sin soaked world. So here's the caution. Though 312 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 5: you can be in empathy and at the same time 313 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 5: draw really secure boundaries, and boundaries aren't meant to shove 314 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 5: another person away. Boundaries are meant to hold yourself together. 315 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 5: And so when you've been the one that's been betrayed. 316 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 5: For me, I want to walk in empathy, but at 317 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 5: the same time, I want to have boundaries to say 318 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 5: this is acceptable, this is not acceptable. And this is 319 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,719 Speaker 5: an area that we still need to do some therapy 320 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 5: around because I can't figure it out. 321 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 3: How has your husband been with the publicity of you know, 322 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 3: y'all's relationship, what you've been through personally? Was that something 323 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 3: he was supportive of from the beginning. Was that something 324 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 3: you know he had shame around? 325 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and and why did you want to share? I mean, 326 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 2: I know our reasons, but in wondering if they're aligned. 327 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 5: To well to some extent, we didn't get to have 328 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 5: that choice because I live a pretty public life, and 329 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 5: so things were coming out and our story was either 330 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 5: going to be told in the rumor mil or we 331 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 5: could get ahead of it and tell it, you know, 332 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 5: with truth. So unfortunately we didn't really have a choice. 333 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 5: The story was going to come out. But my husband 334 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 5: had a really healthy perspective right from the beginning. You know, 335 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,479 Speaker 5: he would say the day that everything came out was 336 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 5: simultaneously the worst day of his life and the best 337 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 5: day of his life. It was the worst day because 338 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 5: everybody knew. It was the best day because now everybody knew. 339 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 5: And so he would say, now when he walks into 340 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 5: a room, he doesn't have to figure out who knows 341 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 5: and who doesn't know. He walks into a room, now 342 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 5: he assumes everyone knows. Therefore he gets to choose how 343 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 5: he walks in the room. And he said he could 344 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 5: walk in as a villain, but he realizes we have 345 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 5: an enemy and it's not him, or he could walk 346 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 5: in as a victim. You know, he's had past traumas 347 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 5: that very much fed into this. But he doesn't want 348 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 5: to be a victim. He wants to walk in that 349 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 5: room as a redeemed man walking in victory. And he 350 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 5: always says he'll be the safest person. 351 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 4: In the room. 352 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 3: I love that because I mean, me and our stories 353 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 3: really do mirror each other because we're the same and 354 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 3: we didn't really have a choice, and even though we didn't, 355 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 3: I still kind of wanted to sweep things under the rug, 356 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 3: and just I wanted to avoid and I was telling 357 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 3: jan it's like, if we just don't talk about it, 358 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 3: it'll go away. And that was just me being naive. 359 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 3: And now I think back on it, and what your 360 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 3: husband said. The way he said it is so true 361 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 3: because I don't have that fear of maybe they're acting 362 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 3: weird towards me because they know but not everyone else does. 363 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 3: I'm like, I am who I am everyone here, even 364 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 3: if I don't know you, you know me to an extent, 365 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 3: so whatever here, I am. So I love how you 366 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 3: know he said that, because that just definitely registers for 367 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 3: me now. It didn't at first, but it does. 368 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 2: I guess I want to ask, because we're the same 369 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 2: years since discovery, do you still have those days where 370 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 2: it's it's not unmanageable, but you have such like still 371 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 2: anger in your heart and you might lash out or 372 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: is it just me asking for a friend. 373 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 5: Asking for a friend l of course, of course, of 374 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 5: course you still get triggered. Of course that pain still 375 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 5: comes up. Of course it does. And it's so good 376 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 5: for me to talk to other women who walk this journey, 377 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 5: because sometimes I seriously feel like I'm the crazy one, 378 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 5: Like what in the world you know I should be? 379 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 5: I should be better by now, I should be more 380 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 5: healed by now. But human relationship are so complex. On 381 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 5: the one level, it seems kind of simple, like be nice, 382 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 5: be empathetic, you know, love each other, you know what 383 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 5: I'm saying, But I mean there's complexities that we've in 384 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 5: and out of a relationship, and you double triple that 385 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 5: when there's been trauma in the relationship. So I just 386 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 5: want to say, of course, you still struggle some days 387 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 5: with anger, and it doesn't mean you're not forgiving. If 388 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 5: you've made the decision to forgive. Now you're just in 389 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 5: the process of figuring out the impact that this had 390 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 5: on you. And it is okay that you have days 391 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 5: that are better than others, and it's okay that these 392 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 5: feelings bubble up, but it is your choice what you 393 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 5: do with them. And so for me, it's important for 394 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 5: me to be honest about how I feel. But I 395 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 5: don't always need to process all of those feelings with 396 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 5: my husband. I definitely don't need to process them with 397 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 5: you know, certain family members who can't handle that. It's 398 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 5: really good for me to process it with my counselor. 399 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 5: And or if you don't have a counselor, then a 400 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 5: safe friend who has a lot of love for both 401 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 5: of you, and who probably the safest kind of friend 402 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 5: would be a mature friend who's further down this exact 403 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 5: journey that you've taken, you know than you are. And 404 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 5: so I heard a really good quote about trauma, and 405 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 5: I've been I've been pondering this over and over and over, 406 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 5: especially when trust has been broken. Trust is built time 407 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 5: plus believable behavior, and so there's going to be a 408 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 5: lot of time that has to go by. But relationships 409 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 5: cannot survive without trust. Trust really is the oxygen of 410 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 5: human relationships. And so trust can be broken in an instant, 411 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 5: but to rebuild it could take a very long long time. 412 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 5: But here's how you'll know when you trust but verify 413 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 5: that you're on the right path rebuilding trust is if 414 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 5: you were to be in a moment where you need 415 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 5: to verify something and you say can I see your 416 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 5: phone or can I look at your computer? And if 417 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 5: he says, we're still dealing with this, like are you kidding? 418 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 5: We should be further down the road, like this is ridiculous. 419 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 5: Then when that kind of script comes up, that means 420 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 5: that it's gonna set you backwards in your trust. So 421 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 5: what my counselor helped my husband understand because at first 422 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 5: we were having this weird, dysfunctional dance with it all 423 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 5: because it was tapping into his shame. But my counselor said, 424 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 5: don't personalize it. Don't personalize it. And instead of saying, 425 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 5: are you kidding? You still so dealing with this, instead 426 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 5: of that say to her, of course, of course you 427 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 5: want to check my phone. And you know what, I'm 428 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 5: so happy to have you check my phone because I 429 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 5: want you to see I'm telling the truth. And that 430 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 5: has helped a lot. Yeah. 431 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 2: No, I love that piece, and I think it is 432 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: hard on you know, our husband's side too, because there 433 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: are times when I'm like, you know, I just don't 434 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 2: feel comfortable with that, and You're right, it does go 435 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 2: into their shame. It's like, well, am I going to 436 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 2: be able to go out? And you know in another 437 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,479 Speaker 2: five years, like I'm always gonna have to deal with this. 438 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 2: And we kind of got into it the other day 439 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 2: and I'm like, I wish we didn't have to, but 440 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 2: like this is unfortunately, like I might just have more 441 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: days that I'm more triggered. And it's and but you know, 442 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 2: he thinks that maybe is a it's like about control 443 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 2: or I'm like, it has nothing to do with that. 444 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: It's truly just a safety thing. And you know, and 445 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 2: I hope in ten years will be better. But I 446 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 2: mean we've come real far from five years, you know, 447 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 2: wherever long that is. So you know, I have to 448 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 2: imagine the next five if we keep building, will be 449 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 2: able to be at a better place. But it's unfortunately, 450 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 2: it's always going to be there, no matter if it's 451 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 2: five years or twenty years. 452 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think for at least me personally, 453 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 3: and I'm sure I speak for a lot of men 454 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 3: in the situation is you know, I would rather it 455 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 3: be direct, kind of like you're saying, Lisa, and Jane 456 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 3: is doing a better job at doing that too, Like, hey, 457 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 3: can I see this because I'm feeling a little whatever 458 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 3: mine is. I know Jane well enough or us. She'll 459 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 3: start like asking these questions and they're like probing questions, 460 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 3: and I know there's something underneath of it, and I'm like, 461 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 3: just come out and say what you need to say. 462 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 3: And because when it's like multiple questions one after the other, 463 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 3: then it's like I feel like I'm being tested. I 464 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 3: feel like I'm being manipulated, like coached into a corner 465 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 3: where no matter what I say, there's going to be 466 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 3: a reaction, when really there's something underneath of it, And 467 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 3: so that's where I struggle the most, is like the 468 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 3: patience with that or the ability to even if I 469 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 3: see it, to be like, hey, what's really going on 470 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 3: right here? Talk to me, you know, and like be 471 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 3: an inviting you know, place for her, an inviting safe place. 472 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 2: As you found the other day. Though sometimes you don't 473 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 2: know what's underneath that at the time, like there's something, 474 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 2: but you haven't, like I don't, like I just feel 475 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: it in my chest. So I want to ask, but 476 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 2: I don't know. So how do you You're basically a 477 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 2: therapist now, so how do we navigate towards that? 478 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 3: This is? 479 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 4: How much do we owe you? 480 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 5: So I'm gonna I'm going to sidestep the question because 481 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 5: I think I'm going to give something that'll be helpful. 482 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 5: I don't always know what I'm feeling either, and sometimes 483 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 5: if I'm pushed to identify the feeling, it makes me 484 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 5: panicycause I don't I don't want to own a feeling 485 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 5: I'm not really having. But if I can't figure out 486 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 5: the feeling, I'm scared. I'm going to say something and 487 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 5: then an hour from now, I'm like, wait, that was 488 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 5: the wrong feeling, And now I'm held accountable to a 489 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 5: feeling I wasn't even really you know, And it's very complicated. 490 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 5: I'm a nine wing eight on the Enneagram. It basically 491 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 5: means like I can't even figure out sometimes what like 492 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 5: am I angry? Am I sad am? I mad am? 493 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 5: I depressed? Am I actually elated? Am I am in dread? 494 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 5: What is this? And it takes a long time. But 495 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 5: if I can have a minute to process, I may 496 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 5: not be able to identify the exact feeling, but I 497 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 5: can just say I don't know what this is, but 498 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 5: here's what it's causing me to want to do. And 499 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 5: so that's a little bit easier. But in the book 500 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 5: Forgiving what you can't forget, and I don't think it's 501 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 5: in every copy. I think it's in the Bible study, 502 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 5: and also in a special edition that Target did, there's 503 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 5: this section called the Divine Echo. And so the reason 504 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 5: I said I want to sidestep this a little bit 505 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 5: is sometimes we can get just really caught up in 506 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 5: the tunnel of chaos, where you're going back and forth 507 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 5: and there's hurt here and there's shame here, and when 508 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 5: hurt bumps into shame, it's just never a beautiful situation, right, 509 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 5: So one day I was so discouraged over this because 510 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 5: I just felt like I'm crying over what happened still, 511 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 5: and I don't I just sometimes wonder like are we 512 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 5: really going to make it? And I don't know if 513 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 5: you guys ever had that. And then I'm like, but 514 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 5: we've been fighting so hard for this, and of course 515 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 5: we're going to make it. But then I don't know, like, 516 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 5: are we really going to make it? And so one 517 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 5: day the Lord said, you are trying to look so 518 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 5: far down the road. Let's just let's just focus on 519 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 5: what what can you do today to fight well today? 520 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 5: And so I was looking in Genesis, and anybody that 521 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 5: knows me, I have an absolute obsession with Genesis one, two, 522 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 5: and three. I know it's a strange thing to be 523 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 5: obsessed about. Even my therapist said, this is like my 524 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 5: coping mechanism. Like I was in this therapy group and 525 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 5: all these people have these really exciting coping mechanisms, and 526 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 5: it got around to me and I was like, I 527 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 5: think I read the Bible. Maybe I over spiritualized things. 528 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 5: So I don't know, I'm kind of a boring person, 529 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 5: but I have a true pssession with Genesis one, two, 530 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 5: and three, so hang with me here. Then the Bible 531 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 5: talks about what ingredients God chose to make the man 532 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 5: and what ingredients God chose to make the woman. This 533 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 5: is really fascinating. Why on earth would God have chosen 534 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 5: dust to make the man from? And why would he 535 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 5: have chosen broken off bone to make the woman from? 536 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 5: I mean, if you think about it, dust, I mean 537 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 5: God had access to everything. So if I was making 538 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 5: a suggestion to God, I'd be like, Okay, the man 539 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 5: needs to be made out of gold and the woman 540 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 5: needs a made out of diamonds, and God had access 541 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 5: to that. But instead he made the man out of dusty, 542 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 5: he made the woman that had broken off bone. So today, 543 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 5: if you're dusting your house and you take the dust rack, 544 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 5: nobody ever said, oh, precious dust, you're so amazing, Like, 545 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 5: let me just set you on a shelf and honor 546 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 5: you for a minute. No nobody ever said that, Like, 547 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 5: you don't even think about the dust. You wipe it 548 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 5: away and you throw it away, right and with broken 549 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 5: off bone. Now, some people like to decorate with broken 550 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 5: off bones, so just set that aside. But like, typically 551 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 5: if you're like on a hike and you see like 552 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 5: an animal carcass or like rib bones or something, You're 553 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 5: not gonna be like, oh wow, that's so beautiful. No, 554 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 5: like broken off bone is a sign that decay has 555 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 5: happened and it needs to be buried, right, And so 556 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 5: I was really fascinated by this, but I realized that 557 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 5: those weren't the only ingredients. Man is not just dust, 558 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 5: he's also breath of God. And woman is not just 559 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 5: broken off bone. She's touch of God, design of God. 560 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 5: And we have to remember that we have a choice 561 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 5: every day to speak to the dust and the broken 562 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 5: off bone, or we can speak to the full picture 563 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 5: of who man and woman really is. And there's this 564 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 5: beautiful scripture that it says it's not good for the 565 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 5: man to be alone? Can I get an amen on 566 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 5: that one? Love that Bible verse? So God created a 567 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 5: helper suitable for him. So what in the world does 568 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 5: that mean? Like what is a wife? What am I 569 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 5: supposed to do? And when I researched the original language, 570 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 5: that word means two things. It's negeed and what it 571 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 5: means is royalty and it also means reflection. So the woman, 572 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 5: when you put all that together, the woman supposed to 573 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 5: be in front of the man, reflecting back to him 574 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,719 Speaker 5: and reminding him, you're not just dust. You're also breath 575 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 5: of God, and you were formed from royalty. You were 576 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 5: made in the image of God, meant to fill the 577 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 5: earth up, not just populate the earth, but fill the 578 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 5: earth up with evidence of God's goodness in God's glory. 579 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 5: And then the woman, the man is supposed to reflect 580 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 5: to the woman, you are not just broken off bone. 581 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 5: You were touch of God, design of God. In every 582 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 5: space you walk into, you have such an ability to 583 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 5: fill the earth up with the evidence of God's goodness 584 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 5: in God's glory. Can you imagine how different it would 585 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 5: be if we start taking back moments from the dysfunctional 586 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 5: Dance and just paused in the middle of the day 587 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 5: and say, you know what, your addiction and your affair, 588 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 5: that was dust, but that's not all who you are. 589 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 5: You are also breath of God. And so I'm going 590 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 5: to speak some life over you in that space. And 591 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 5: then you reflect back to her like, hey, you are 592 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 5: not just broken off bone. You're not just the angry 593 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 5: woman who's triggered and upset about the pictures from the 594 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 5: baby moon and all this stuff. You know who you are, Jana, 595 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 5: you are touch of God, design of God, and speaking 596 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 5: life over her and telling her you are beautiful, you 597 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 5: are significant, you are amazing. And just imagine if we 598 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 5: start stealing back some memories in our day from the 599 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 5: Dysfunctional Dance and we started I call this the divine echo, 600 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 5: when we just started speaking this life over one another. 601 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 5: And it's hard when you're angry and frustrated and hurt 602 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 5: and triggered and all of that. But I'm just determined 603 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 5: if we stole back moments and intentionally created life and 604 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 5: started breathing life back into our relationships, I think it 605 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 5: would be pretty amazing. 606 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 4: I mean, amen to all that. 607 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 2: I just I have to say it's really comforting because 608 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 2: everything that you you know talk about, you know, even 609 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 2: in this book, and I can't wait to go back 610 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 2: to read your other ones. It's just it's just nice 611 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 2: to not feel alone, and it's nice to not it's 612 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 2: nice to know that, like, and that's why we wrote, 613 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 2: you know, our book, because it's like, I just I 614 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 2: don't want to be alone. I don't want to feel 615 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 2: like I'm alone. I got to think that someone else 616 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: is out there that is feeling the same way, and 617 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 2: I just I really, I really really really appreciate you, 618 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 2: and I I am yeah, I'm just I'm thankful for 619 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 2: you as a person, as an author is and I'm 620 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 2: I can't imagine, well, I can't imagine. 621 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 4: But but. 622 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 2: You know, I just, yeah, I just thank you for 623 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 2: everything that you do. And I'm excited to do your 624 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 2: online Bible study stuff and all. 625 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 4: The worksheets too. 626 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 2: I I do want to ask, so, how was it 627 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 2: for the kids, because that is something that I'm nervous about. 628 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 2: But I know your kids are older, so I'm just 629 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 2: curious how that. 630 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 5: You know they're still on their journey. And I think 631 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 5: everyone in our family is still trying to find their 632 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 5: way through therapy and find healing. So the hard part's obvious, 633 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 5: but there's a good part too, is that I'm not 634 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 5: sure we any of us, would have approached therapy with 635 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,919 Speaker 5: such intentionality as as we do now. But now it's 636 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 5: like this urgent need, and my kids all recognize that, 637 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 5: you know, relationships take a lot of work. And I 638 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 5: also think that they're not they're no longer terrified of 639 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 5: the what ifs in life because we walked through them 640 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 5: and we've survived, And you know, I think I'm walking 641 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 5: in a lot more freedom with my kids now because 642 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 5: I don't feel like I'm holding my breath when when 643 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 5: when are they going to find out or when are 644 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 5: they gonna you know, blame me or hate their dad 645 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 5: or whatever. You know, I don't dabble in the wet 646 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 5: ifs anymore. I just I just walk in reality and 647 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 5: I just really take it day by day. And the 648 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 5: Bible says, you know, leave the worries of tomorrow in tomorrow, 649 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 5: just like what is right in front of me today, 650 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 5: because today has enough worries of its own. And so, 651 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 5: you know, I think my kids are doing well. They 652 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 5: love your podcast, by the way, I think I DMD 653 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 5: you and was like when you sent the request in 654 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,879 Speaker 5: for the podcast, and my kids are like sucking all 655 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 5: the air out of the room. I love them. 656 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 3: That's so sweet, you know, I appreciate. I hope people 657 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 3: are really listening to what you're just talking about through 658 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 3: the Book of Genesis and stuff, Lisa, because I'm one 659 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 3: that appreciates the simplicity and complex situations, right, and when 660 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 3: you're able to no matter the situation, when you're able 661 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 3: to look at it and simplify it. It can really 662 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:01,240 Speaker 3: help with the process of walking through it, of living 663 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 3: through it, a feeling through it if you just kind 664 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 3: of keep that mindset, because it might be simple, but 665 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 3: it's not easy, right. So I appreciate personally that analogy 666 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 3: and that that comparison to the Book of Genesis, and 667 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 3: I hope our listeners again really intently listen to that part. 668 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 3: But we appreciate your time. We need to have you 669 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 3: on every week because we have I know both of 670 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 3: us have so many questions, so many more questions and 671 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 3: topics we want to talk about because our timelines are 672 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 3: so similar, our experiences are so similar. But we appreciate 673 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 3: your time so much, Lisa, and we look forward to 674 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:32,439 Speaker 3: having you on again. 675 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 2: And where can our listeners find you? And will you 676 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 2: come back on for like a part three four, two, 677 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 2: three four or five? 678 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 5: Absolutely, But next time, y'all have to give me free therapy, Okay, 679 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 5: So let us go back and forth on this thing. 680 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 2: Fair. 681 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Lisa Turkers. 682 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 5: It's my name is y Essay. I know I have 683 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,439 Speaker 5: a very complicated name, but if you just go at 684 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 5: l y Essay with a tea, then you'll find me, 685 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 5: or you can go to my website Lisa Turkers dot com, 686 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 5: or you can check out the ministry website Proverbs thirty 687 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 5: one dot org. 688 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,919 Speaker 2: Lisa, thank you so much and we'll talk very soon. 689 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:14,439 Speaker 5: That sounds great. 690 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 3: Thank you appreciate it. 691 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 5: Bye bye. 692 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 2: I really want to get Lisa back on the show 693 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 2: because I honestly there's so many more questions than I 694 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 2: would love for her to also answer some questions of 695 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,959 Speaker 2: some of our listeners too, Oh for sure. 696 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 3: And I think again it's so fascinating because they didn't 697 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 3: have a choice whether things came out. So many similarities, 698 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 3: so I it's like I couldn't think fast enough at 699 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 3: all the different questions I have for her. So we'll 700 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 3: definitely get her back on. I mean, she's an unbelievable author, 701 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 3: unbelievable person, so definitely have some more conversations with her. 702 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 2: Okay, let's take a break and then let's do an email. 703 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 2: Let's do it, hey, Mark, do we have any emails? 704 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,240 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, we do. This is from Lindsay. 705 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: My husband owned a successful business and about four years 706 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: ago he had an assistant that I felt was getting 707 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: too friendly with him. I had just had our first child, 708 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: and I admit I threw myself one hundred percent into 709 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: my new mommy role and neglected my husband and our marriage. 710 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: My husband swore to me they didn't have a physical affair, 711 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 1: but they may have had more of an emotional relationship 712 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: because it was lacking with me at the time. I 713 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 1: have mutual friends with this girl, and one of them 714 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: came to me and told me how much he talked 715 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: about my husband and said she would totally hook up 716 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: with my husband if he ever made a move. After 717 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: crossing the line one too many times, I told my 718 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 1: husband he had to choose her or me. He reduced 719 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: her workloads so much that she had to quit and 720 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: find another job. Fast forward to today. We're doing great. 721 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: We've had another kid since then. Recently, his ex assistant 722 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,839 Speaker 1: got a job at another company that does a lot 723 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: of work with my husband's company. I found out by 724 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: checking my husband's phone that they've started emailing each other again, 725 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: and so far what I can see, it's all been 726 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: work related, But I worry about that emotional connection starting again. 727 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: Do you think I need to bring this up to 728 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,280 Speaker 1: my husband and discuss my discomfort with the situation again, 729 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: or should I just trust that he will remain faithful. 730 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 2: Okay, So I personally do not think that they should 731 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,879 Speaker 2: be emailing again if and I one hundred percent think 732 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 2: that she should go to her husband and say, hey, 733 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 2: you know, I did see this in your email and 734 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 2: it makes me uncomfortable. I'm sorry if I looked at 735 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 2: your email, but this is what's coming up for me, 736 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,399 Speaker 2: and just say it from a really vulnerable place. And 737 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 2: I think it's okay for her to question, like, why 738 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 2: are you guys commune unicating again? Because I don't think 739 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 2: they should be communicating again if they're not working together? 740 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 4: Am I off? Based on that? 741 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 3: I get what you're saying. 742 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 2: But so. 743 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 3: From the situation, the way I interpreted it was that 744 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 3: she's working for a company that his company often works with, 745 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:24,720 Speaker 3: so they started communicating due to work. You know, work material. 746 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 3: Work needs two things. One, if he was aware, which 747 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,359 Speaker 3: it's hard to say this, it's easier to say from 748 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 3: the outside looking in for him to be like, hey, 749 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 3: so and so works for this company. Now we had 750 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 3: a cross paths because of this reason for work. I 751 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 3: just wanted to bring it up. 752 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 4: To you and let you know that would have been 753 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:47,959 Speaker 4: the great thing. 754 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 3: To do for sure. But I but he. 755 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 4: Probably doesn't feel like well that's the thing. 756 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,359 Speaker 3: As a guy. As a guy too, it's like he's 757 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 3: not perfect, he might not be perfectly compartmentalizing. He's just like, Okay, 758 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 3: this is work, Like, no matter who it is, it's 759 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 3: just work. I never had anything with this woman. 760 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 2: But it's somebody that affected his wife for sure. That's 761 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 2: where I'm like, No. 762 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 3: I know, women wish we were as aware as you guys. Yeah, 763 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,799 Speaker 3: but I'm just saying probably, you know, he probably wasn't. Also, yes, 764 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 3: if she just goes to him from a good place 765 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 3: and says, hey, this is coming up for me, this 766 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,359 Speaker 3: is bothering me. Can we figure this out? I don't 767 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,879 Speaker 3: think it's her place is to just immediately request please 768 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 3: don't talk to her. I think it's like, hey, can 769 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 3: we figure this out? Do you have to talk to 770 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 3: her specifically? What is the reason for the work communication? 771 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 3: And then go from there. 772 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 2: Would it be okay to say, when you do talk 773 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 2: to her, can I be Can I look at your 774 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 2: email if I ask, or can you tell me like 775 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 2: when you communicate with her? 776 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,800 Speaker 3: Because it bothers me just putting myself in his shoes. 777 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 3: If she comes to him in a way of like, hey, 778 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,280 Speaker 3: here's the problem. Let's stand together, look at the problem. 779 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 3: Let's figure out the best solution, instead of her coming 780 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 3: saying like you can't talk to her, you know what 781 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 3: I mean, Because then it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa, 782 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 3: Like this is for work, you know, still nothing ever 783 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,240 Speaker 3: did happen. 784 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 4: But what lines? 785 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,839 Speaker 2: I'm curious what lines were crossed, because there's still I mean, 786 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,440 Speaker 2: just like a lot of people, I mean, emotional affairs 787 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 2: are just as deadly as physical affairs. They're just as hurtful. 788 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 2: They're just as harmful. And to have that connection. 789 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 3: I think the one thing is that the first time 790 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 3: when she requested, like hey, her or me, he lessened 791 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 3: her hours and she ended up leaving. So like he 792 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 3: abided by the boundaries the first time around. It didn't 793 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 3: seem like he gave her shit for it. It didn't 794 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 3: seem like he fought against it. Yeah, he complied with 795 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 3: the request and he you know, went through with it. 796 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,720 Speaker 3: So I just think again, just to be careful here, 797 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 3: Lindsey and approach it as, Hey, you and I are 798 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 3: a team. This is the problem. Let's figure out the 799 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 3: most appropriate solution. For this together. 800 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:04,880 Speaker 2: And I feel like the second that you start talking 801 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 2: about your spouse to another man like issues is when 802 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 2: you're opening the door for that spouse to come in. 803 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,879 Speaker 2: Whether you think you're doing that or not, I think 804 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,320 Speaker 2: that's a very open door because they know, like, Okay, 805 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 2: I can, I can come in here. Right, it's not good, 806 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:26,919 Speaker 2: So hopefully that's not what he did either. 807 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:30,280 Speaker 4: What do you say, babe? 808 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,920 Speaker 3: What a show. 809 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 4: We'll see you next week. We'll still be quarantining. Bye.