WEBVTT - Government Policy is Solvable (with behavioral science)

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Junior. What do

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<v Speaker 1>you get when you put a behavioral scientist in the

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<v Speaker 1>room with policymakers? Every program in policy has a default

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<v Speaker 1>design that will influence people one way or the other.

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<v Speaker 1>If that behavioral scientist is Maya Shankar, you may get

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<v Speaker 1>an analysis of how our complicated human minds impact our

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<v Speaker 1>participation in government programs. We are influenced by some very

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<v Speaker 1>surprising factors that ought to not influence our decisions, but

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely do. Effective government policies are tricky things to get right.

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<v Speaker 1>To begin with, there's lobbying and then rigorous debate around

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<v Speaker 1>whether a policy or program should exist at all. That's

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<v Speaker 1>followed by, as we've seen recently, a lot of argument

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<v Speaker 1>about how much money to spend. But once the budget

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<v Speaker 1>has been settled and the money allocated to federal programs,

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<v Speaker 1>there's the important step of designing programs that truly serve

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<v Speaker 1>the people and reach them, and that's where studying human

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<v Speaker 1>behavior can help. Small changes can be the difference between

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<v Speaker 1>successful engagement or a low participation rate. So the government

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<v Speaker 1>ended up leveraging an insight known as the power of defaults,

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<v Speaker 1>and basically it changed the school Lunch program from an

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<v Speaker 1>opt in program to an opt out program. The National

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<v Speaker 1>School Lunch Program reaches nearly thirty million children each year.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks to smart, sometimes seemingly subtle changes like these, millions

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<v Speaker 1>more Americans may be making the most of government programs,

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<v Speaker 1>from farmers to veterans to college age students. Behavioral science

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<v Speaker 1>is the study of how and why we make decisions,

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<v Speaker 1>as well as how we develop our attitudes and beliefs

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<v Speaker 1>about the world. Maya Shankar is the host of the

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<v Speaker 1>podcast A Slight Change of Plans, and she founded the

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<v Speaker 1>White House's Behavioral Science Team, serving as an advisor during

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<v Speaker 1>the Obama administration to help develop strategy and implement government

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<v Speaker 1>policies by studying behavioral factors that influence decision making. Better

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<v Speaker 1>implementation of government policy is solvable but the help of

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<v Speaker 1>behavioral science. I think if you'd asked me as a

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<v Speaker 1>little kid, what do you want to be when you

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<v Speaker 1>grow up? I would have definitely not said cognitive scientists

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<v Speaker 1>because I had no idea what it was. I was

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<v Speaker 1>actually a violinist growing up. That was my passion. I

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<v Speaker 1>started playing when I was six years old, and I

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<v Speaker 1>really got on the speed train when I was nine

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<v Speaker 1>and started studying at the Juilliard School of Music in

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<v Speaker 1>New York. And then when I was a teenager, It's

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<v Speaker 1>a pearlman asked me to be his private violence student,

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<v Speaker 1>and so at that point I thought, Wow, I've gotten

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<v Speaker 1>a vote of confidence from the person I think is

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<v Speaker 1>the best violinist in the world. I might actually have

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<v Speaker 1>what it takes. Very Unfortunately, I had a sudden injury

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<v Speaker 1>in my left hand that basically ended my career overnight

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<v Speaker 1>when I was fifteen. So how did you make the

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<v Speaker 1>pivot from violinists to behavioral scientists. I was forced to

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<v Speaker 1>explore other avenues and other paths In that summer before college,

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<v Speaker 1>when I was supposed to be touring in China with

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<v Speaker 1>my friends Ronald and instead I was helping my parents

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<v Speaker 1>clean their basement. So equally cool summer situation, but I

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<v Speaker 1>ended up discovering a book on how the mind works.

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<v Speaker 1>I remember thinking, oh, my gosh, I had no idea

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<v Speaker 1>just how complicated our mental systems are and what goes

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<v Speaker 1>behind our ability to make decisions and learn language and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, interact with the world and the way that

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<v Speaker 1>we do. And I was just a light bulb moment

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<v Speaker 1>for me where I realized, I think this is what

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<v Speaker 1>I want to do. I think this is what I

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<v Speaker 1>want to study, because I felt completely in all of

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<v Speaker 1>the human mind. And you did it. You went through

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of schooling to immerse yourself in this stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>You studied with esteemed cognitive psychologist Lori Santo said, Yeo,

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<v Speaker 1>also a Pushkin co worker. Went on to get a

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<v Speaker 1>PhD and do a post doc and join the ranks

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<v Speaker 1>in academia. But after a number of years involved with

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<v Speaker 1>the research side of things, you realize that you didn't

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<v Speaker 1>love it. You know. It was like an o explotive moment.

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<v Speaker 1>What do I do next? And I actually ended up

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<v Speaker 1>calling up my underground advisor and I called her and

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<v Speaker 1>I said, Laurie, so, I know I've been doing this

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<v Speaker 1>whole you know, want to be a professor thing for

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<v Speaker 1>some time because I really admire you. But I actually

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to do that anymore. I'm thinking of becoming

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<v Speaker 1>a general management consultant. And Laurie, you could hear a

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<v Speaker 1>light gasp on the other phone, namely, oh no, I

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<v Speaker 1>did not invest all this time into my student for

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<v Speaker 1>her to leave my field. And so she said okay,

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<v Speaker 1>before she was very gentle before you explore that path, Maya,

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to let you know that there's incredible

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<v Speaker 1>work happening in the Obama White House right now that

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<v Speaker 1>is helping low income kids get access to free lunch.

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<v Speaker 1>But there's no actual job that hiring for. There's no

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<v Speaker 1>They're not like, yeah, we want to hire a behavioral scientist.

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<v Speaker 1>So I end up sending a cold email to a

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<v Speaker 1>former Obama advisor, Cass Sunstein, and I say, hey, Cass, like,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Maya, I'm a post doc, i have no public

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<v Speaker 1>policy experience, and I've published nothing of significance, but I'd

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<v Speaker 1>really love to work at the intersection of behavioral science

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<v Speaker 1>and policy. Thankfully, he ignored all the insecurities seeping out

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<v Speaker 1>of my email and immediately got back to me and said,

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<v Speaker 1>let me connect you with Obama's science advisor and let

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<v Speaker 1>him know that I sent you along. And so within days,

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<v Speaker 1>Ronald like this was a crazy life change for me.

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<v Speaker 1>I was interviewing with Obama officials, pitching them on the

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<v Speaker 1>idea of creating a new position for me in which

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<v Speaker 1>I could translate insights about human behavior into the design

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<v Speaker 1>of public policy. So I packed up my bags and

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<v Speaker 1>I moved to DC, and you know, I started my

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<v Speaker 1>job at the White House at the beginning of Obama's

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<v Speaker 1>second term. Can you talk a little bit about what

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<v Speaker 1>behavioral factors are, what that looks like, and give a

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<v Speaker 1>few examples on how that played into the work that

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<v Speaker 1>you actually did. Behavioral science is the study of how

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<v Speaker 1>and why we make decisions, as well as how we

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<v Speaker 1>develop our attitudes and beliefs about the world. And the

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<v Speaker 1>reason why this field is so important in the context

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<v Speaker 1>of public policy making is that it reveals that we

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<v Speaker 1>are influenced by some very surprising factors that ought to

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<v Speaker 1>not influence our decisions, but absolutely do, sometimes outside of

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<v Speaker 1>our conscious awareness. So let me give you a concrete example.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we'd all like to believe that when we

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<v Speaker 1>go into a voting booth, we'll end up voting for

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<v Speaker 1>the person we'd most like to see elected into office. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>That's pretty common sense. But research shows that the order

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<v Speaker 1>in which the candidate's names appear on a ballot can

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<v Speaker 1>exert a significant influence on our voting behavior, and so

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<v Speaker 1>when public policymakers become aware of this bias, they can

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<v Speaker 1>in turn design a solution, namely to randomize the order

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<v Speaker 1>in which the candidate's names appear across ballot. When you

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<v Speaker 1>don't appreciate that these factors are actually informing decisions, then

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<v Speaker 1>you might be engaging in suboptimal policy design. So my

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<v Speaker 1>intention joining the White House was to make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>we were designing public policies with our best understanding of

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<v Speaker 1>human behavior in mind. So, talk a little bit about

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<v Speaker 1>the work you did in those early days of the

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<v Speaker 1>second Obama administration. How did you figure out which policies

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<v Speaker 1>needed the help of behavioral science. I was knocking on

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<v Speaker 1>every single door saying, you know what problems are you

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<v Speaker 1>already trying to solve? Now, let me brainstorm how the

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<v Speaker 1>tools in my toolbox can help you achieve those goals.

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<v Speaker 1>So a good example of this is in an early

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<v Speaker 1>meeting I met with the Department of Veterans Affairs, and

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<v Speaker 1>they had built up this program that was trying to

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<v Speaker 1>help veterans reacclimate to civilian life after their time overseas,

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<v Speaker 1>and that transition, as you might know, can be very

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<v Speaker 1>challenging and fraught with lots of struggles. We ended up

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<v Speaker 1>changing just one word in an email marketing message about

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<v Speaker 1>the program, instead of telling veterans that they were eligible

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<v Speaker 1>for the program, we simply reminded them that they had

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<v Speaker 1>earned it through their years of service, and that one

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<v Speaker 1>word change led to a nine percent increase in access

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<v Speaker 1>to the veterans program. And it was based on a

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<v Speaker 1>behavioral science insight called the endowment effect, which basically says

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<v Speaker 1>that we value things more when we feel that we

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<v Speaker 1>own them or have earned them, and that again led

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<v Speaker 1>to a groundswell of activity and excitement for this work.

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<v Speaker 1>May do you think that your work is a result

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<v Speaker 1>of suboptimal policy making or suboptimal policy enacting. So the

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<v Speaker 1>policies themselves were fantastic, but there was a there was

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<v Speaker 1>an implementation gap, right. We weren't thinking about accessibility, availability

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<v Speaker 1>of the program, what it means in real life to

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<v Speaker 1>engage with the government in this way. Another name that

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<v Speaker 1>they had for your team was the Nudge Unit, And

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<v Speaker 1>when I read that, I was like, I don't want

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<v Speaker 1>to be nudged. I'm not trying to be nudged in

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<v Speaker 1>any direction, especially when it comes to the government. But

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<v Speaker 1>you talking about it being about policy implementation kind of

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<v Speaker 1>makes me understand it a little bit more. But what

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<v Speaker 1>would you say to detractors that say, I don't like

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<v Speaker 1>this policy. I don't want to be nudged into doing it,

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<v Speaker 1>and now they're using government science trickery in order to

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<v Speaker 1>get me to do it. I don't feel good about that.

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<v Speaker 1>How would you respond to those folks? Yeah, well, first

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<v Speaker 1>I would say there's no default less state of the world.

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<v Speaker 1>And what I mean by that is every program and

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<v Speaker 1>policy has a default design that will influence people one

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<v Speaker 1>way or the other. If you're a veteran and you're

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<v Speaker 1>asked to fill out a burdens and application form that

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<v Speaker 1>requires referencing fifteen different resources, well that's a default too.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a nudge too, right, And chances are those requirements

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<v Speaker 1>are nudging veterans away from accessing a program that can

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<v Speaker 1>actually be in their benefit. But nudges will not work

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<v Speaker 1>for people who don't want to take the action. An

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<v Speaker 1>example of this is, you know, sending an email reminder

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<v Speaker 1>about in rolling in a retirement savings plan will make

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<v Speaker 1>a difference for a military service member who wants to

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<v Speaker 1>enroll but just needs a reminder. It will not make

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<v Speaker 1>a difference for someone who doesn't want to enroll because,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, they want to use the money to make

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<v Speaker 1>a down payment on a home or they just want

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<v Speaker 1>the disposable income. So I think it's really important for

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<v Speaker 1>listeners to understand behavioral science is not a silver bullet, right.

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<v Speaker 1>It helps to enable people to reach their long term

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<v Speaker 1>goals who are seeking that long term goal, but it

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<v Speaker 1>will not make a difference for those who don't want

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<v Speaker 1>in So, how do you decide that your approach is

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<v Speaker 1>helping enough people to bother doing it? Leadership and government

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<v Speaker 1>and in the White House put in a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>effort to figure out, you know, what are our goals

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<v Speaker 1>for this year. Then we wanted to make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>we were responding to those goals and we were leveraging

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<v Speaker 1>what we knew from behavioral science to help them achieve

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<v Speaker 1>those goals more effectively. So this might involve helping student

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<v Speaker 1>loan borrowers repay their loans in a more effective way

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<v Speaker 1>or understand what their options are, or helping farmers get

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<v Speaker 1>access to loans with the US Department of Agriculture. And

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<v Speaker 1>then we would also look at other factors. How many

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<v Speaker 1>people are we going to be able to help through

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<v Speaker 1>this project? Right, are we operating in the millions? Because

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<v Speaker 1>if so, yes, that makes a lot of sense for

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<v Speaker 1>us to work on. And then we also wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>make sure that the outcome that we are trying to

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<v Speaker 1>change was significant from a policy perspective. So things like

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<v Speaker 1>helping workers find jobs, getting more people to sign up

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<v Speaker 1>for clean energy plans, or health insurance, these are all

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<v Speaker 1>outcomes that are of huge significance. Some of the policy

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<v Speaker 1>solutions I've read about, which come from studying human behavior,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of sound like common sense. Talking to students telling

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<v Speaker 1>them to sign them for class by text message, having

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<v Speaker 1>the opt in program or the opt out program. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you think that it's necessary to have a government team

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<v Speaker 1>dedicated to behavioral science for these policy tweaks to actually

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<v Speaker 1>be implemented, Like I'm imagining if I'm a member of Congress, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm looking at this line item for this team,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm wondering, do we need a whole team to carry

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<v Speaker 1>out little tweaks like this? Yeah? So I think one is,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, some of these insights can absolutely seem like

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<v Speaker 1>common sense after the fact, but the reality is that

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<v Speaker 1>they weren't being implemented in our absence. And it's also

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<v Speaker 1>important to note that behavioral science is a very context

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<v Speaker 1>specific space to work in. Not all insights will work

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<v Speaker 1>in all areas. And you need trained behavioral scientists in

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<v Speaker 1>order to make the right prescriptions, right to design meaningful

0:12:48.716 --> 0:12:52.276
<v Speaker 1>experiments to teach us what is working in what context

0:12:52.796 --> 0:12:55.756
<v Speaker 1>in the ideal world some decades from now. It would

0:12:55.756 --> 0:12:59.236
<v Speaker 1>be amazing if our team was rendered obsolete because agencies

0:12:59.276 --> 0:13:01.916
<v Speaker 1>were just hiring the relevant people with the relevant skill

0:13:01.956 --> 0:13:04.076
<v Speaker 1>sets to do this work. As a matter of course,

0:13:04.196 --> 0:13:06.996
<v Speaker 1>just good government, that is the goal to drive yourself

0:13:07.036 --> 0:13:10.396
<v Speaker 1>out of existence. But at the time, and it continues

0:13:10.396 --> 0:13:12.076
<v Speaker 1>to be the case today because the team is very

0:13:12.156 --> 0:13:15.156
<v Speaker 1>much still around and the Biden administration and was around

0:13:15.236 --> 0:13:17.836
<v Speaker 1>during the Trump administration doing great work to help you

0:13:17.996 --> 0:13:21.556
<v Speaker 1>on topics like the opioid epidemic and wildfires and whatnot.

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<v Speaker 1>It's important to sometimes have these dedicated teams that are

0:13:27.676 --> 0:13:32.956
<v Speaker 1>exclusively focused on the particular goal of translating human behavioral

0:13:32.956 --> 0:13:36.116
<v Speaker 1>insights into public policy improvements, because otherwise it's too easy

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<v Speaker 1>for it to get ignored. How do we apply these

0:13:38.956 --> 0:13:42.076
<v Speaker 1>ideas when there's not a dedicated office, Like, how would

0:13:42.436 --> 0:13:45.116
<v Speaker 1>state and localities apply some of these principles. Well, the

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<v Speaker 1>nice thing is actually there's been a flurry of activity

0:13:47.756 --> 0:13:51.476
<v Speaker 1>in state and local government in which nudge units are sprouting.

0:13:52.796 --> 0:13:55.676
<v Speaker 1>So lots of state and local governments now have their

0:13:55.676 --> 0:14:00.356
<v Speaker 1>own nudge units or they are using insights from behavioral science.

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<v Speaker 1>But there's no one size fits all approach with behavioral science.

0:14:03.876 --> 0:14:06.196
<v Speaker 1>You can't just say, oh, here are my favorite ten insights,

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<v Speaker 1>let me just apply them to all the policies and

0:14:07.916 --> 0:14:11.036
<v Speaker 1>programs there. There is a rigorous science behind it, and

0:14:11.316 --> 0:14:13.116
<v Speaker 1>you need to make sure that you do have experts

0:14:13.956 --> 0:14:18.156
<v Speaker 1>who are looking at those optimal translations. Is there anything

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<v Speaker 1>our listeners can do if they want to, If they

0:14:20.916 --> 0:14:22.636
<v Speaker 1>they're listening to this and they're like, man, I want

0:14:22.636 --> 0:14:25.756
<v Speaker 1>more science in government, I want to inject more What

0:14:25.836 --> 0:14:27.316
<v Speaker 1>do you, well, what can they do to help if

0:14:27.316 --> 0:14:29.356
<v Speaker 1>they want to be a part of this now? So

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<v Speaker 1>I would say, like, the bible of behavioral science and

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<v Speaker 1>policy is this book called Nudge. And actually Richard Taylor

0:14:36.116 --> 0:14:38.356
<v Speaker 1>and Cass Sunstein, the authors of this book, came out

0:14:38.356 --> 0:14:41.916
<v Speaker 1>with a final edition version just recently. It actually references

0:14:41.956 --> 0:14:44.556
<v Speaker 1>the work that's happened in the UK and the United

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<v Speaker 1>States to try to increase the translation of behavioral science

0:14:47.396 --> 0:14:49.876
<v Speaker 1>into policy. So I would send listeners to that book

0:14:49.916 --> 0:14:53.276
<v Speaker 1>first and foremost on my podcast, A slight change of Plans.

0:14:53.476 --> 0:14:56.196
<v Speaker 1>I had a chance to interview some science experts where

0:14:56.196 --> 0:14:59.156
<v Speaker 1>we talk about the science behind changing people's minds with

0:14:59.836 --> 0:15:02.916
<v Speaker 1>folks like Adam Grant, the science of behavior change with

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Katie Milkman, and I would point folks to those

0:15:06.276 --> 0:15:08.796
<v Speaker 1>specific episodes because I think it's a really nice primer

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<v Speaker 1>for where the science is at right now when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to human behavior. Maya, thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 1>being with us today. Thanks so much for having me Ronald.

0:15:20.156 --> 0:15:24.396
<v Speaker 1>It was so much fun to chat with you. Doctor

0:15:24.436 --> 0:15:27.116
<v Speaker 1>Maya Shankar is the founder of the White House's Behavioral

0:15:27.156 --> 0:15:29.956
<v Speaker 1>Science Team. She served as a senior advisor in the

0:15:29.956 --> 0:15:33.556
<v Speaker 1>Obama White House. In twenty sixteen, Shanker served as the

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<v Speaker 1>first Behavioral Science Advisor to the United Nations under Bond

0:15:37.476 --> 0:15:40.956
<v Speaker 1>Ki Moon. She's also the host of A Slight Change

0:15:40.956 --> 0:15:44.556
<v Speaker 1>of Plans, another great Pushkin podcast. You should check it out.

0:15:44.716 --> 0:15:49.236
<v Speaker 1>It's available everywhere you listen. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank,

0:15:49.676 --> 0:15:53.676
<v Speaker 1>research by David Jack, booking by Lisa Dunn. Special thanks

0:15:53.676 --> 0:15:57.636
<v Speaker 1>to Keishell Williams. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, and

0:15:57.676 --> 0:16:01.676
<v Speaker 1>our executive producer is Mia LaBelle. I'm Ronald Young Jr.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening,