1 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: Take a deep breath in and breathe out. 2 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 2: Your conscious mind is going to go totally away so 3 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: that I can. 4 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 3: Speak priminantly of your unconscious mind. 5 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 4: You can notice that you feel rested, more alerted, confident. 6 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 3: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. This is episode eight of 7 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 3: mind Games. I'm Alice Hines, I'm Zoela Scos. 8 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 5: You don't know how you did it. 9 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 6: You did you. 10 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 4: You're going to a little time to Tarsian stake and 11 00:00:58,920 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 4: you're out of it. 12 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 5: For seven episodes, we've been tracing the story of Neurolinguistic 13 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 5: Programming and its founder, Richard Bandler. We've learned how a 14 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 5: volatile young guy with a troubled past successfully sold a 15 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 5: set of brain hacks and persuasion techniques to everyone from 16 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 5: corporate suits to pick up artists to the US Army. 17 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 3: And LP started as self help, but it also began 18 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 3: to appeal to groups that sold self help as a 19 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 3: baden switch in order to control and exploit groups popularly 20 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 3: known as cults. 21 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 5: In this episode, we're going to dig into the darkest spinoff. 22 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 5: NLP ever spawned a group called Nexium. Nexium, a New 23 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 5: York based cult whose leader was sentenced to one hundred 24 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 5: twenty years in prison for sex trafficking and other crimes. 25 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 3: You might have heard of Nexium before brainwashing, sex abuse, 26 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 3: and even branding. There was an HBO docu series about 27 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 3: it called The Vow, and a ton of media coverage 28 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 3: the time. But we're wanting to look at Nexium from 29 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 3: a different perspective as a case study for how NLP 30 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 3: can be used for coercion and what happens when persuasion 31 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 3: tools fall into the hands of someone with terrible and 32 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 3: at times sadistic intentions, someone like Nexium's leader, Keith Ranieri. 33 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 7: Esp Nexium is a methodology that allows people to optimize 34 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 7: their behavior. 35 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 3: Keith Ranieri started out like a lot of people we've 36 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 3: heard about on this podcast. He was an aspiring human, 37 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 3: potential entrepreneur interested in NLP, not all that different from 38 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 3: a young Richard Bandler or Tony Robbins. His company, Nexium 39 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 3: offered what they called executive success programs to people looking 40 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 3: for an edge in their personal and professional lives. TV 41 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 3: actresses joined Mexico's political elite did too. Two heiresses to 42 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 3: the Seagram's liquor fortune bankrolled the organization for years. On paper, 43 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 3: Naxium looked like a lot of other self improvement groups. 44 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 3: The Dalai Lama even showed up to one of their events, 45 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 3: but then at least seventeen women ended up branded with 46 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 3: Keith Ranieri's initials. 47 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 8: The person who's being branded should be completely nude and 48 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 8: sort of held to the table like a sort of 49 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 8: almost like a sacrifice. 50 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: He loved being taped, and so members filmed and recorded 51 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 3: him constantly. This is a clip that was later played 52 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 3: at his trial. 53 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 8: And the person should ask to be branded, Okay, should say, 54 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 8: please brand me. It would be an honor or something 55 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 8: like that, an honor I want to wear for the rest. 56 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 6: Of my life. 57 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 9: I don't know. 58 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 4: We begin with breaking news in a celebrity sex cult trial. 59 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 5: The alleged ringleader just convicted. 60 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 3: Keith was ultimately convicted of sex trafficking among other crimes 61 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen. 62 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 8: Prosecutors said Keith Rennier was a mastermine sipulator who ruined marriages, careers, fortunes, 63 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 8: and lives. 64 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 3: You've probably heard some of the story before, but what 65 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: people don't know is that Keith was indebted to NLP. 66 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 6: Initially, Nancy was replaceable. I could have partnered with Anthony 67 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 6: Robbins and other people, and I didn't feel they were 68 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 6: appropriate personality wise and things like that. 69 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 3: In this clip from the Vow, Keith is talking about 70 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 3: Nancy Salzman. We met her in our first episode. She's 71 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 3: a master NLP trainer. Keith recruited her to co found Nexium. 72 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 6: She was a good student and she was willing to 73 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 6: learn the stuff. So now Nancy's not replaceable, and ultimately 74 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 6: that's my goal to create a thousand Nansens. 75 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 4: In the world. 76 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 3: Keith made it sound like Nancy needed him, but it 77 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 3: was a two way street. Keith needed her NLP skills 78 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 3: and he used them for his own purposes. 79 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: I never imagined that Keith Ranieri would misuse my work. 80 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 2: I believe that he was as committed to finding methods 81 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: to help people as I was, and it was horribly 82 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 2: shocking when I found out that he did. 83 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 3: I met Nancy at her home outside of Albany, New York. 84 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 3: It was the first interview she's done since being released 85 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 3: from prison. 86 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: She's my second sphinx. You have to feel her. It 87 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: just kind of feels like velvet. 88 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, her skin is amazing. 89 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: She's totally hairless, totally hairless. 90 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 3: Nancy's story with NLP starts a few decades ago. Nancy, 91 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 3: is this. 92 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: Your nursing school graduation? 93 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 8: Yes? 94 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: Can I see? Yeah? 95 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 3: This is my As a young nurse, she got interested 96 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 3: in hypnosis. 97 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: Oh here, you want to set the pictures? 98 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's me. 99 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, how old were you here? I was twenty. 100 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 3: Nancy showed me a picture of her on her bookshelf. 101 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 3: It's the nineteen seventies and she's a young, pretty Jewish 102 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 3: girl from New Jersey with aviator glasses and dark brown hair. 103 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 3: Had you started learning about hypnosis yet at this time? 104 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 4: No, But I already knew that my favorite thing was 105 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 4: psych and I was interested in that, and I was 106 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 4: interested in chronic pain, and I started studying, like just 107 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 4: taking courses. I didn't want to use drugs. I wanted 108 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 4: to do something non traditional. And my ex husband was 109 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 4: a physician, and he introduced me to the whole idea, 110 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 4: the whole idea of hypnosis for chronic pain and biofeedback. 111 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 3: When Nancy was a child, her mom had debilitating back pain. 112 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 3: Seeing her mom's suffer set Nancy on a path. 113 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 4: But there's something about being able to help somebody that 114 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 4: just makes me so it's probably the biggest motivator of 115 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 4: my entire life. 116 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 3: She was working with chronic pain patients and looking for 117 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 3: ways to help them overcome suffering using the power of 118 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 3: their minds. LP did just that. 119 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 4: You work with somebody their lifetime is not supposed to 120 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 4: be sitting around talking about their problems. So in NLP 121 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 4: it was solution based. So when people come to you, 122 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 4: you know what's the problem, what do you want? 123 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 3: Nancy studied with Richard Bandler and saw firsthand how persuasive 124 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 3: NLP can make someone. Remember Nancy told us how nlped 125 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,559 Speaker 3: her into letting him drive her new Volvo drunk after 126 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 3: eleven martinis. Bandler denies this. 127 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 4: I couldn't believe he convinced me to do that. 128 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 3: Nancy still believed strongly in the power of NLP to 129 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: provoke change. That's why she was willing to speak to 130 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 3: me for this podcast. 131 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 4: I never would have believed how bad the media could 132 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 4: be until I read about myself in the media and 133 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 4: I realized how inaccurate it really was. 134 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 3: What was the worst thing that you read? 135 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 4: I had a company. It was a human performance company. 136 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 4: We taught training, so we helped people, We worked with people, 137 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 4: and really we had a money back guarantee for anyone 138 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 4: who took the training, and no one ever took the 139 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 4: money back guarantee. People loved our training. And then a 140 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 4: series of things happened with my business partner and he 141 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 4: did something separate from my company sex sex cult. 142 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they called it a cult. 143 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 3: Nancy doesn't like to call NEXIEM a cult. She claims 144 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 3: the company helped more than eighteen thousand people with its 145 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,479 Speaker 3: so called executive success programs. 146 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 4: My company taught trainings, and it created coaches, and it 147 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 4: was a goal setting program. And we were very consistent 148 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 4: in what we were doing. And the majority of the 149 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 4: people who were in my company knew nothing about this 150 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 4: other thing, and I knew nothing about it. 151 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 3: Nancy pled guilty to charges of racketeering and served a 152 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 3: two year prison sentence. Keith Ranieri, meanwhile, is serving one 153 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 3: hundred and twenty year sentence for crimes including sex trafficking. 154 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 3: Do you think that he was misusing any of the 155 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 3: self improvement techniques that you had showed him to manipulate 156 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 3: these women? 157 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 4: No, No, I think he was just extorting them. I 158 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 4: think he was promising them. I think he was lying 159 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 4: and extorting them. 160 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 3: He's promising them self improvement. 161 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 4: Yes, everything he did was promising self improvement. 162 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 3: It seemed to me that Nancy was still processing exactly 163 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 3: what had happened in Nexiom. But I wanted to sort 164 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 3: out definitively whether NLP was part of Nexium's abuse. I 165 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 3: had Nancy take me back to the nineteen nineties when 166 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 3: Keith first started pursuing her. At the time, he was 167 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 3: running a multi level marketing company called Consumer's Byline. 168 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 4: When he started his first company, he wanted his whole 169 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 4: staff to have NLP and I refused. I said no. 170 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 3: Keith kept sending people to me meet with Nancy on 171 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 3: his behalf, which she thought was a little weird. 172 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 4: I didn't even want to meet him for any reason. 173 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 4: My ex husband's wife introduced us. That's the only reason 174 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 4: I met him, because he was pursuing me for years. 175 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 3: Nancy was at the peak of her career as an 176 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 3: NLP trainer working for conn Edison in New York at 177 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 3: their nuclear power plant. 178 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 4: I worked in one division of the company and I 179 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 4: was teaching the NLP communications model, and one of the 180 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 4: senior vice presidents came in and watched me teach it, 181 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 4: and he was very impressed by it, and he brought 182 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 4: me in to be the human performance person to help 183 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 4: them get the nuclear power plant back online. 184 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 3: This sounded improbable to me at first that a nuclear 185 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 3: plant would hire an NLP trainer, but I actually tracked 186 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 3: down the conad VP who hired Nancy. He didn't want 187 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 3: to give an interview for this podcast, but he confirmed 188 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 3: her story and said her work helped boost operator morale. 189 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 3: It was this kind of skill that Keith wanted at 190 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 3: his company. Eventually he convinced Nancy to sit down with him. 191 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 4: So when I met Keith, he immediately figured out, or 192 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 4: maybe I just told him that I really wanted to 193 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 4: help people. Testingly, I started to feel like I wasn't 194 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 4: helping people any longer and that maybe I would give 195 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 4: that up. And he asked me why, and I said, 196 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 4: because none of the change seems to be permanent. 197 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 3: Keith promised that together he and Nancy could improve upon NLP. 198 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 4: When we decided to teach the communication model of NLP, 199 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 4: I used to teach that on a weekend, and we 200 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 4: taught it in two hours. I think the genius of 201 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 4: Keith wasn't that he came up with all these things 202 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 4: on his own. It was that he could take extremely 203 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 4: complex information and break it down into something that a 204 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 4: nine year old could understand. 205 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety eight, Keith and Nancy co founded the 206 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: company that became Nexium. Nancy was teaching NLP at their 207 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 3: trainings like this one captured in the vow Now. 208 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 4: The difference between having an integration and other processes is when. 209 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: It's gone, it's gone. 210 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 4: With an integration, you can't even remember what it used 211 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 4: to be like. It changes your whole experience of existence forever. 212 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 3: Keith and Nancy took ideas from NLP and added new jargon. 213 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 3: An integration was a transformation achieved by redefining your reality. 214 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 4: When you took our five day training, you learned about 215 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 4: perception and about changing meaning, and a bunch of different 216 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 4: things that then made it easy for me to work 217 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 4: with people. In the NLP model of perception, we take 218 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 4: in the reality data and then we take in what 219 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 4: we think it means, and we blend it all together. 220 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 4: So our map of reality is not all about reality. 221 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 4: Some of it is a bunch of meanings that aren't accurate. 222 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 4: So that information comes in, it passes through filters, and 223 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 4: we make an internal representation, and that internal representation drives 224 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 4: our emotions, it drives our behavior, it drives our thought processes. 225 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 5: I don't know about this being something any nine year 226 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 5: old can easily understand, but the point she's making about 227 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 5: maps of reality is straight NLP. She's basically saying that 228 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 5: your perception of the world is patchy and distorted, and 229 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 5: once you recognize that, you can decide how you want 230 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 5: to feel or behave, and from there you can create 231 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 5: your own reality. 232 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is actually really important in state control. This 233 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 3: NLP technique we heard about in our first episode. You'll 234 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 3: remember Nancy talking about how she was able to conjure 235 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 3: feelings of happiness and excitement to overcome depression when she 236 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 3: was in prison. 237 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 4: A month in I said to myself, what is wrong 238 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 4: with you? You have all of these tools, use them, 239 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 4: and I put myself in a good state. And I said, 240 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 4: you see, you know how to do this. It is 241 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 4: inexcusable for you to stay in this state because you 242 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 4: are making yourself miserable. And I did. I kept myself 243 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 4: in a good state the whole time I was stuck 244 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 4: in prison. 245 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 5: The idea that these tools are so effective you could 246 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 5: have a great time in prison is honestly pretty seductive, 247 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 5: I want this superpower. 248 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. So Nixium took this NP technique state Control and 249 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,479 Speaker 3: repackaged it. They called the process of reframing your emotions 250 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 3: and memories an em for exploration of meaning, and Keith 251 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 3: would often use it on Nancy. When she was first 252 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 3: working with Keith, she was still Nuclear Power Plant and 253 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 3: she was stressed out by her job and going through 254 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 3: a divorce. But through working with Keith. 255 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 4: I just stopped being afraid. Then I stopped being upset. 256 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: I just wasn't anymore. 257 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 3: Nancy was able to change how she felt. 258 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 4: I was driving home after a meeting with Keith, and 259 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 4: we had been up like till four o'clock in the morning, 260 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 4: because I would come home like at eleven or twelve, 261 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 4: because I was driving back from my work at the 262 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 4: nuclear power plant on Friday night. And I would say, 263 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 4: I'll meet you in the morning, and he would say, no, 264 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 4: come now, there's food, blah blah. So I'd go to 265 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 4: eat and then we'd start talking. Before I knew it, 266 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 4: I'd be crying. We'd be talking. I'd be embarrassed because 267 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 4: I was crying. Nobody seemed to notice. There's people around 268 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 4: all the time. Nobody noticed I was. I was always 269 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 4: a puddle, and then you know, at the end of 270 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 4: the weekend. I remember I would say to Keith, are 271 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 4: you gonna put me back together again? I have to leave, 272 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 4: and he would say, oh, yeah, I always put you 273 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 4: back together, and he would. 274 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 3: The longer Nancy spent with Keith, the more her professional 275 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 3: and personal worlds blended together. 276 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 4: But I remember also feeling like when I first started 277 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 4: working with him, he was doing such intense work with 278 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 4: me that I would be walking around and I would 279 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 4: feel like the ground underneath me wasn't solid, and I 280 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 4: would start to think, oh my god, this feels really weird. 281 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 4: I'd be lifness as I was walking, you know, thinking 282 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 4: this is solid. Why do I feel like I'm falling 283 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 4: through the floor. 284 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 3: Because he was making you question your reality, yes he was. 285 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 4: He was actually changing how I perceived my reality. But 286 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 4: the more he did it, the more effective I got, 287 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 4: so I didn't question it. I just felt like everything 288 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 4: was changing. He did it really quickly with me. 289 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 3: Questioning your reality can yield a lot of progress and success, 290 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 3: but then someone else controls your reality. 291 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 4: He was making me more reality based, though I was 292 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 4: seeing that I was seeing my own limitations It wasn't 293 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 4: like he was trying to to cause me to believe 294 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 4: things that weren't true. It was showing me how what 295 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 4: I believed was limiting me. 296 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 5: It sounding like she feels some of the work she 297 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 5: did with Keith was actually helpful. 298 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 3: Yes, but Keith also told Nancy one of her limiting 299 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 3: beliefs was that she needed to sleep. 300 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 4: I would feel like it was a limitation of mine 301 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 4: if I needed more than four hours of sleep. And 302 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 4: so I started, you know, trying to get by with 303 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 4: less sleep. 304 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 3: It was one more thing to optimize. The less you slept, 305 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 3: the more you could achieve. 306 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 4: And after a long period of time of convincing myself 307 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 4: that it wasn't okay to sleep more than four hours, 308 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 4: I started to notice things like if I drove late 309 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,239 Speaker 4: in the day, like or at night, I would fall 310 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 4: asleep driving. I ended up on my front lawn once 311 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 4: because I fell asleep. Once I got I was like 312 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 4: really alert as I was driving home, and once I 313 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 4: got to my block and my house was the third 314 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 4: house in I relaxed and I fell asleep and I 315 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 4: ended up on my front lawn. I mean I didn't 316 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 4: hit anything. It woke me right up, but I got 317 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 4: a reputation for needing to be driven home at night 318 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 4: from any training that went past dark, because people knew 319 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 4: that I couldn't stay awake at night. 320 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 3: Sleep deprivation feels like an obvious red flag for abuse, 321 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 3: but because it was framed as self improvement, Nancy didn't 322 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 3: catch it because. 323 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 4: I kept thinking there was something wrong with me, and 324 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 4: it never It didn't even occur to me until years 325 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 4: after I stopped interacting with him, that I could drive 326 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 4: at night and it wasn't ever a problem. And I 327 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 4: thought to myself, oh my god, I was sleep deprived. 328 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 4: And I said to a number of people who I 329 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 4: still speak to, I think I was sleep deprived when 330 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 4: I was working with Keith, and that you all said, 331 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 4: are you crazy? He kept you sleep deprived. He used 332 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 4: to announce in front of the room. He would shame 333 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 4: you in front of the entire room if you needed 334 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 4: too much sleep. 335 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 5: Interesting because sleep deprivation is not NLP, but Keith used 336 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 5: NLP to convince Nancy and other followers that running on 337 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 5: fumes was good for them. 338 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is actually a pattern I've seen in 339 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 3: my reporting on groups that used coercive control, popularly known 340 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 3: as cults. Basically, people like Keith used therapeutic techniques to 341 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 3: woo followers, but these techniques can only go so far 342 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 3: in manipulating people. To truly control someone, cult leaders layer 343 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 3: mind games with changes to physiology, things like sleep deprivation, 344 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 3: appetite suppression, or even encouraging followers to take high doses 345 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 3: of LSD, which is what the Manson family did. 346 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 5: Uh, it's like a toxic soup. It's just like all 347 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 5: of these tactics blended together leave you so strung out, 348 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 5: totally disoriented and utterly unable to question the charismatic guide 349 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 5: driving the bus. 350 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And on top of that, Nancy said she 351 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 3: was often afraid of Keith. 352 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 4: What Keith did do a lot was he created stimulus 353 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 4: response patterns in people because he was very good at 354 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 4: reading an individual and noticing where their fears were, and 355 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 4: then he used them. I don't think that was using 356 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 4: human technology. I think he was sensitive. He could see 357 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 4: those things, and when he saw your pattern and your fear, 358 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 4: he was very capable of using it against you. 359 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 3: At one point in our interview, I asked Nancy Soulzman 360 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 3: outright whether Keith had used NLP against her at first 361 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 3: she said no, but then she thought of something. 362 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 4: Well, eventually he puts some fear angers into me, Yeah, 363 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 4: some fear anchors. Yeah, and that would cause me not 364 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 4: to want to approach him about things. 365 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 5: We've heard about anchors throughout the series. It's the classic 366 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 5: technique NLP got from hypnosis, where someone uses a sensory 367 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 5: cue like a tap on the knee or a specific 368 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 5: sound to trigger an emotional state. In NLP, anchors are 369 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 5: usually established to trigger positive feelings like excitement or confidence. 370 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 3: But Keith used anchers to make people feel scared and uncomfortable. 371 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 7: Wear in your body that there's a censation that you 372 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 7: try to try to ignore, try to suppress, it just 373 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 7: gets stronger and stronger. 374 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 3: In this scene from the Vow, Keith is talking to 375 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 3: one of his many girlfriends. We noticed some hypnotic techniques 376 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 3: we learned about while reporting this podcast, like permissive language, 377 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 3: deliberately ambiguous phrases and stories that can induce a trance state. 378 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 7: And perhaps there are areas in your body you haven't 379 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 7: noticed before, Like certainly you've noticed your stomach at times, 380 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 7: and maybe the sensation in your stomach now is changing 381 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 7: but not going away, maybe intensifying, maybe not but probably intensifying. 382 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 7: It may even becoming less comfortable, but that's okay. 383 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 3: The woman looks uneasy and asks him to stop. 384 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 7: I guess you're. 385 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: Finish my report? 386 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 7: None trying to read? Yeah, I took an you can 387 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 7: vision report. 388 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: Can you stop? 389 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 7: I can stop anyway, I know what else. 390 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 3: But Keith doesn't stop. He leans over and taps her arm. 391 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 7: I will slape. 392 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 3: A classic NLP anchor. 393 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 9: He did a lot of physical touch anchoring. Do you 394 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 9: know when you put your hands up and you kind 395 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 9: of clasp, you're kind of like you're clasping, you're holding 396 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 9: like that. 397 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, do you know what I mean, like. 398 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 4: You're He would do that. 399 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 9: He'd touch your hand and he did this to me 400 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 9: if I've seen him do it to others, where he'd 401 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 9: like touch certain parts of your hand and hold your 402 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 9: hands in a certain way while he was talking to you. 403 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,239 Speaker 9: Like I've said, just to be really good. Did not 404 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 9: have an intimate relationship with him, but the women who 405 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 9: had it have verified that this is a big part 406 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 9: of how he got close to women. 407 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 3: That's Sarah Edmondson, a former next to a member who 408 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 3: was in the group for twelve years. 409 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 9: I was basically in charge of bringing people to the 410 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 9: to the infoinites and pitching it to them and helping 411 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 9: them sign up, and embarrassingly, I was quite good at that, 412 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 9: and that's something I was proud of at the time. 413 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 4: But yeah, I was. 414 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 9: I was trained in all of the things, sales, all 415 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 9: the NLP, all of the CBT, all of the techniques 416 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 9: that Keith was really good at. 417 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 3: As Anxium field trainer, Sarah was taught an NLP concept 418 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: called rapport to convince people to sign up for trainings. 419 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 3: To build rapport, Sarah would mirror someone's tonality, gestures, and emotions, 420 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 3: then try to influence or lead them. It could be 421 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 3: totally innocent. 422 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 9: Leading my kids to like brush their teeth and it's 423 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 9: gonna be so fun. Yay, we'll play the Elmo song. 424 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 9: That's probably a good use of pacing. But if I 425 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 9: was going to, you know, try to get you to 426 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 9: take a training that you couldn't afford and that would 427 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 9: be bad for you and your family, Like that's really bad, 428 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 9: or you know, on the extreme level, certain people, you know, 429 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 9: trying to manipulate me and get me to believe that 430 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 9: getting branded would be good for my commitment to my 431 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 9: myself and my growth because they were using all sorts 432 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 9: of words, anchoring of different concepts commitment and how that 433 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 9: was accessing my subconscious world to even someone saying like, 434 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 9: what does it mean if you don't do this, you're 435 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 9: a leader? 436 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 3: So branding actually got sold to Sarah, believe it or not, 437 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 3: as women's empowerment. 438 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 5: So wait, how did they get Sarah to get a brand? Then, Alice, 439 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 5: it doesn't sound like she was into the idea. 440 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 3: Yes, So to be clear, NLP didn't make Sarah get branded. 441 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 3: NLP was one part of Keith's seduction and eventual control, 442 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 3: but there was also a lot more to it. She 443 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 3: got invited to join this secretive group with a nexium 444 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 3: called DOS. It was all women, and how it was 445 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 3: pitched to her was that if she joined, she would 446 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 3: accelerate her personal growth. So in addition to giving brands, 447 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 3: the group asked for collateral. So Sarah had to give 448 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 3: compromising information like nude photos of herself when she joined, 449 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 3: and supposedly this was going to keep her accountable to 450 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 3: her progress. 451 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 5: Okay, so they framed blackmail as helping you keep track 452 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 5: of your goals or something like that. 453 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 3: I think it's really illustrative that Nexium and this subgroup 454 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 3: within Nexiom where all the women were branded. They couldn't 455 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 3: just rely on manipulation and NLP to get people to 456 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,719 Speaker 3: do something truly awful. They had to blackmail them, right, Like, 457 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 3: manipulation only gets you so far. If you really want 458 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 3: to control people, you need sleep deprivation, appetite suppression, you 459 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 3: need to dose them with drugs, or you need to 460 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 3: blackmail them. You cannot just truly brainwash someone into doing 461 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,239 Speaker 3: something against their own will. I think we see that 462 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 3: over and over again in these groups. Human technologies like 463 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 3: NLP can be used in recruitment and also to dissuade 464 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 3: people from leaving a group like this, But to truly 465 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 3: make someone do something against their own will, I e. 466 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 3: Like mind control, it doesn't really work. You need force. 467 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 9: That's where like a more specific understanding of a term 468 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 9: like brainwashing or indoctrination fits in. Brainwashing is one way 469 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 9: to say it, but I can also say NLP was 470 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 9: used on me to access my subconscious using words, matching, mirroring, leading, anchoring. 471 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 9: All of it was an inherent sort of like web 472 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 9: of deception within everything we did in Exiom. 473 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 3: None of this happened all at once. It happened slowly 474 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 3: and after the leaders had established trust. 475 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 9: If someone had said to me on day one of 476 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 9: my five day when I was twenty eight, that in 477 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 9: twelve years I was going to be branded with the 478 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 9: leader's initials, I would have clearly given them the finger 479 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 9: and ran out the door. And there's another element. I 480 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 9: would say, you don't want to be rude, and you 481 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 9: kind of want to just like see where things go 482 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 9: and give people the benefit of the doubt. 483 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 3: Some of the techniques were genuinely helpful. Sarah was actually 484 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 3: a big fan of state control, which we've heard about before. 485 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 4: Honestly, I loved it. 486 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 9: I loved it, especially as an actor, to be able to, 487 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 9: you know, to walk into a situation and have to 488 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 9: bring up a state of joy or intensity or power. 489 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 4: It was amazing. 490 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 9: It was a button that I could push and I 491 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 9: still use some of those things today. 492 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 3: That wasn't the only technique from NLP that Sarah appreciated. 493 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 9: And just to give your listeners like a positive version 494 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 9: of that. And why I so much trusted this whole 495 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 9: system from the beginning is at my very first em 496 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 9: exploration of meaning was so powerful and really it was 497 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 9: a reframing I won't get into the whole thing, but 498 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,239 Speaker 9: I used to have this really extreme reaction anger, like 499 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 9: rage to my boyfriend at the time, not nipping, not 500 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 9: my husband leaving dishes in the sink and leaving a mess. 501 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 9: Like I would just go into a rage. And I 502 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 9: knew it was unhealthy, and I knew it wasn't based 503 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 9: in any sort of reality, but it just happened. And 504 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 9: my first em was basically looking at what the dishes 505 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 9: meant to me. 506 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 3: And when Sarah dug into the dishes thing, it took 507 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 3: her back to her parents' divorce. She realized she was 508 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 3: connecting messy kitchens to their split. 509 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 9: And all the facilitator had to say is what if 510 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 9: the dishes didn't cause the divorce? So all shit to 511 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 9: do was say that, and I go, oh, my goodness, 512 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 9: my parents were twenty six. 513 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 4: I had a whole bunch of. 514 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 9: Things going on. The dishes didn't cause the divorce. They 515 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 9: weren't a good fit. Like that's a reframe. 516 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 3: Reframing was supposed to make Sarah's understanding of reality more objective, 517 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 3: but it got twisted. 518 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: When I left. 519 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 9: How I knew that when I was speaking to somebody 520 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 9: who was still hooked in is. They would say things 521 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 9: to me, like, because I was telling people about the 522 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 9: branding right at a certain point, and they would say like, 523 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 9: but what does that mean exactly? Like what if that's 524 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 9: not bad? 525 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 3: What's bad about it? 526 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 4: Exactly? 527 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 9: And I would say, dude, branding is what farmers do 528 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 9: to cattle. It means that they own the cattle. Keith 529 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 9: thinks that I am. And then they would say something 530 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 9: like what if it's only that? If you make it 531 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 9: mean that trying to reframe. 532 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 4: What it means. 533 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 3: Reframing is supposedly a tool of self help. It's supposed 534 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 3: to help you gain more agency and control over your reality. 535 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 3: But in this case, it's doing the opposite right exactly. 536 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 9: Every question set was a series of questions that were 537 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 9: about concepts about your values, your beliefs, your understandings of 538 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 9: the world. But I do think everything was controlled and 539 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 9: everything was designed to get you a little bit unstable. 540 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 9: And I say, I don't want to get a brand. 541 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 9: Why what are you making it mean? 542 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,959 Speaker 3: Another member of the group suggested that Sarah question her 543 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 3: perception of reality classic NLP. 544 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 9: It's like a tattoo. I don't want to mark on 545 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 9: my body. I've never had a tattoo for this reason. 546 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: How come? 547 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 3: What does it mean? 548 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 9: Well, it's like a scar, it's a permanent blemish. What 549 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 9: if it's a permanent commitment to your growth? And commitment 550 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 9: and growth are like words that you and I both 551 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 9: understands English. But those are what I'm sure you've heard 552 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 9: the term now in your research loaded language. 553 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 3: In retrospect, Sarah thinks the brand was itself an anchor 554 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 3: concepts straight out of NLP. Seeing and touching the mark 555 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 3: on her body was a physical sensation that conjured an 556 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 3: emotional state of commitment to a leader she ultimately broke 557 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 3: free of. 558 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 9: Honestly, I look at the women who are branded. As 559 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 9: far as I know, there's only there's less than thirty. 560 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 9: I personally had mine removed. I had physical like I 561 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 9: had plastic surgery and had it cut off. But if 562 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 9: you look at those women, some of them are still 563 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 9: completely loyal to Keith. 564 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 3: Since leaving Nexium, Sarah's become a spokeswoman for cult survivors. 565 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 3: She co hosts the podcast A Little Bit Culty with 566 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 3: her husband Nippy, who also left Nexium. Many of the 567 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 3: groups they examine on the podcast use NLP. 568 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 9: Sarah says they might not call it NLP in other groups, 569 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 9: but every group that I've ever looked at does something 570 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 9: like that. 571 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 3: I asked Sarah if she still uses any Nexium techniques. 572 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 9: Not everybody agrees in ex members like that we've left together. 573 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 9: Some people had to throw it all out because they 574 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 9: believe if you have like a particle of shit and 575 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 9: a cake, it affects the whole cake. Obviously, the way 576 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 9: that I've approached it is that because I spent twelve 577 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 9: years there, if I throw it all out, that's a 578 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 9: huge waste of time. 579 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 3: I've had to like figure out. 580 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 9: What tool I want and where it came from originally, 581 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 9: and not pay any tribute to Keith. 582 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 3: Nancy is not so different. She still believes in NLP 583 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 3: and for the most part how it was used in Nexium. 584 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 3: She's currently coaching clients over Zoom from her townhouse outside 585 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 3: of Albany. 586 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: The last seven years has just been a lot of 587 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: loss for me. 588 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 4: So now it's up all the way. 589 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 3: How like, soon did you start coaching when you came 590 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 3: home from prison? 591 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 4: The minute they said I could, really, I was doing 592 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 4: it in the halfway house, really on my phone. They 593 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 4: couldn't figure out why I couldn't, so they said I could, 594 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 4: and everyone I would set it up so you couldn't 595 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 4: tell where I was. 596 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: It's horrifying. 597 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 3: Can NLP be used for good or evil? Is it 598 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 3: a neutral tool? 599 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 4: You know, when people ask me about that, one of 600 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 4: the things that I say is a knife in the 601 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 4: hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife 602 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 4: in the hands of a murderer is a weapon. 603 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 5: What's Nancy's relationship with Keith. 604 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 3: Like now non existent? Nancy called him a psychopath in 605 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 3: our interview, saying that he didn't have empathy. She blames 606 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 3: him for all of the bad things that happened to her, 607 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 3: as well as the group's broader abuse. 608 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: Narcissists are very. 609 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 4: Kind in the beginning to get you enrolled, and that's 610 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 4: exactly what he did, and so in the first couple 611 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 4: of years he was incredibly kind to me, and then 612 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 4: the abuse started a little at a time, and he 613 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 4: was very as smart as I've. 614 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 3: Said, Nancy now recognizes tactics like sleep deprivation as abuse, 615 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 3: but she also still parrots some Keith propaganda. 616 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 4: You have to understand some that Keith Ornieri, according to 617 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 4: the Guinness Book of World Records, is one of the 618 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 4: top three scorers on IQ tests ever in history. 619 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 5: We fact check this, and while Keith was listed in 620 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 5: the nineteen eighty nine Australian edition of the Guinness Book, 621 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 5: his claims to being the smartest man in the world 622 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 5: were based on taking an untimed, unsupervised IQ test. A 623 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 5: lot of IQ tests, including the one Keith took, are 624 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 5: totally bogus. Guinness deleted the highest IQ category in nineteen ninety. 625 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 9: Yeah. 626 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 3: I think the real reason why Nancy is still invested 627 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 3: in Keith being some kind of genius, even though she 628 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 3: hates him, has to do with her own guilt. If 629 00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 3: Keith is an evil mastermind. It's easier to forgive herself 630 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 3: for not knowing what was going on in the group 631 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 3: if we take her word for it, or for not 632 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 3: acting against him. 633 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 5: But how do you know she actually feels guilty? 634 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 4: Alice? 635 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 5: Are we just trusting her on that. We know she 636 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 5: has a gift for controlling her emotions and for persuading 637 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 5: other people. She could just be an operator. 638 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 3: I've thought a lot about that, but here's something I 639 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 3: keep coming back to. Nancy has this personality type of 640 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 3: someone who falls under the influence of powerful men. These 641 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 3: guys who position themselves as geniuses with all the answers. 642 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 3: She's weirdly gullible towards these guys, and it seems to 643 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 3: happen to her over and over. Recall the Volvo you 644 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 3: let Richard Vandler drive your brand new Volvo ten martinis in. 645 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: He didn't seem drunk. 646 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 3: This guy had something he did. 647 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: What did he have? 648 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 4: I don't know. 649 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 3: Richard Bandler and Keith Ranieri had a few things in common, Like. 650 00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 4: Richard Bandler could look at you and see patterns, but 651 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 4: no one could look at you and see patterns like 652 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 4: Keith Raniery. Keith Ranieri could look at you, have a 653 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 4: five minute conversation with you and understand exactly what your 654 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 4: limitations were, and then he would tell you and you 655 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 4: would feel like he was reading your mind. I felt 656 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 4: like Keith Renary could read my mind sometimes, and when 657 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 4: I first met him, it was almost scary. I sat 658 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 4: and talked to him. I felt like no one had 659 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 4: ever known me better in the first conversation I had 660 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:39,879 Speaker 4: with him. 661 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 3: Was he charismatic. 662 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 4: When he wanted to be? 663 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 3: Who was more charismatic Richard Vandler or Keith Ranary or 664 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 3: were neither of them charismatic. 665 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:56,760 Speaker 4: That's kind of what I'm weighing. 666 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 3: As we left me Nancy, she packed us some leftover 667 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 3: lunch for the train ride back to New York City. 668 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 4: You guys are going to be on the train for 669 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 4: three hours. You're going to need food. 670 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. 671 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 4: I should pack up the cheese and bread and you 672 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 4: guys can have it on the train. 673 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: You should take it. 674 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 4: I'm telling you, we're going to be hungry on the train. 675 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 3: I spent the train ride home wondering about the people 676 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 3: who have used NLP for their own purposes and about 677 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 3: the men who started it all. I kept wondering where 678 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 3: in the world Richard Bndler was and whether he bears 679 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 3: any responsibility for his tool NLP getting used as a 680 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 3: weapon spoiler in our last episode. I finally get to 681 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 3: ask him, this is what we referred to as a 682 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 3: IT job, and I find this very fucking offense, very 683 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 3: fuck offention of what the hell let's. 684 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: Wrong with you? Well, Richard? 685 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 3: For someone who wow. 686 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:17,320 Speaker 5: Richard, that's next time. Online games mind Games is a 687 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 5: Kaleidoscope production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The series is 688 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 5: created and hosted by me Zoe Lascas. And Alice Hines. 689 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 5: It's produced by writer Alsop and Dara Luk Potts, edited 690 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,439 Speaker 5: by Kate Osborne. Editorial consulting from Adeza Egan. 691 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 3: Original composition and mixing by Steve Boone, fact checking by 692 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 3: Aman Whalen from Kaleidoscope. Our executive producers are Oswaloshin, Mangesh Hattikador, 693 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 3: and Kate Osborne from iHeart. Our executive producers are Katrina 694 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:51,720 Speaker 3: Norville and Nikki Etour.