Speaker 1: He's got three, but he's trying to hit kind of
Speaker 1: a slice around this tree and get something right of
Speaker 1: his pin.
Speaker 2: Professional golf has always been one of the quieter, more
Speaker 2: genteel sports to watch, or it was until live golf
Speaker 2: crashed onto the greens.
Speaker 3: Okay, boys, here we go the first time.
Speaker 4: The Lift Tour motto is Golf but louder.
Speaker 2: The upstart rival to the PGA Tour, flush with cash
Speaker 2: from Saudi Arabia, has spent hundreds of millions of dollars
Speaker 2: to lure away some top players like Phil Mickelson.
Speaker 4: Pretty Much all the best players played on the PGA Tour,
Speaker 4: at least for the last twenty years. That will never
Speaker 4: be the case again. And I think going forward, you
Speaker 4: have to pick a side. You have to pick what
Speaker 4: side do you think is going to be successful? And
Speaker 4: I see live golf trending upwards. I see PGA Tour
Speaker 4: training downwards, and I love the side that I'm on.
Speaker 2: Other big names in the sport, like Rory McElroy have
Speaker 2: sounded more skeptical. I don't agree with what Phil said.
Speaker 2: I understand why he said it because of the position
Speaker 2: he is in. I certainly don't see the PGA Tour
Speaker 2: trending goingward at all. It's also divided fans.
Speaker 3: It's just somebody with too much stupid money, but who
Speaker 3: didn't want to play over there.
Speaker 2: It's a competition breeds excellence and that is what Live
Speaker 2: Golf is forcing the PGA to do. And of course
Speaker 2: it's turned into a legal battle over whether players have
Speaker 2: the right to compete in both places.
Speaker 1: They were completely opposed to the idea of having Live
Speaker 1: golfers wearing Live branded T shirts and caps at the
Speaker 1: PGA Tour events.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like the popular kid in school convincing
Speaker 3: all of his friends not to talk to the new kid.
Speaker 2: I'm Wescaso today on the big take, the expensive, not
Speaker 2: so quiet fight for the future of golf. There's a
Speaker 2: lot to dig into here, and let's start with Bloomberg
Speaker 2: Sports writer Ira Boodway. He's been watching this rivalry unfold. Ira,
Speaker 2: for the longest time, PGA was golf, and Live really
Speaker 2: threw a grenade into this entire sport. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean it not only brought for the first time,
Speaker 4: like a real competitor to the PGA Tour, but it
Speaker 4: forced the PGA Tour to really kind of reassess some
Speaker 4: of what it was doing and pushed it to reform itself.
Speaker 4: So it's been a really disruptive force in the game.
Speaker 4: It's got Saudi Arabian money. They've poured two billion or
Speaker 4: so into it out of six hundred billion that they
Speaker 4: have in this public investment fund, so it's essentially limitless money.
Speaker 4: And they came and said, we're going to pay players more.
Speaker 4: We're going to have no cut during our tournaments. So
Speaker 4: this was really attractive to star players who felt like
Speaker 4: they needed more guaranteed money and that they were really
Speaker 4: driving the economics of golf and not seeing enough for war.
Speaker 4: So the tour said, okay, we hear you. We're going
Speaker 4: to start adding enhanced events with bigger purses, and starting
Speaker 4: next year they're going to have events with no cuts.
Speaker 2: What is new cuts mean?
Speaker 4: Typically on a PGA Tour event, you have to compete
Speaker 4: for the first two days Thursday Friday, and then a
Speaker 4: certain number of golfers who are above whatever mark make
Speaker 4: it through to the last two rounds to sort of
Speaker 4: speed things up, and it's the ones who have a
Speaker 4: chance essentially at winning, and they get rid of everybody else.
Speaker 4: So you could be a star golfer, decide to go
Speaker 4: to a PGA Tour event, have a bad couple days,
Speaker 4: go home, even though you're the one that was on
Speaker 4: all the commercials and that a lot of the fans
Speaker 4: showed up to see you go home with very little money.
Speaker 4: You only play for two days and it kind of
Speaker 4: feels like a bust. The live events don't do this.
Speaker 4: They do fifty four holes, which is live is Roman
Speaker 4: numeral for fifty four. Everybody plays three. It's only forty
Speaker 4: eight golfers in the field, so it's much more kind
Speaker 4: of golfer friendly in that way. The tour has had
Speaker 4: this long tradition of being really egalitarian, where it's like
Speaker 4: you have to compete to make money, and that's a
Speaker 4: big part of the attraction and kind of the knock
Speaker 4: on live that it's just kind of soft. Like a
Speaker 4: lot of these guys who came over, Phil Mickelson, Dustin Johnson,
Speaker 4: they got huge guaranteed money contracts just to join live,
Speaker 4: in Mickelson's case, reportedly two hundred million dollars. For them,
Speaker 4: it's easy money and they don't have to worry about
Speaker 4: how they're performing as much. The tour is moving a
Speaker 4: little bit in that direction and saying all right, we're
Speaker 4: going to have these so called enhanced events with bigger purses,
Speaker 4: and we will not cut anybody from the field throughout.
Speaker 4: And it's a smaller field, so there's more sort of
Speaker 4: guarantees or at least opportunity for star players to be
Speaker 4: sure that they're going to get a reward for their
Speaker 4: investment of time. The tour also had started this thing
Speaker 4: called the Player Impact Program. It's a way to reward
Speaker 4: the players who drive the most interest simply based on
Speaker 4: their social media influence, their celebrity, there fame, and they
Speaker 4: measure this through a formula that they have and then
Speaker 4: at the end of the year they pay those players
Speaker 4: just for being interesting. Basically, Tiger Woods always gets the most.
Speaker 4: He got fifteen million last year, and they increased that
Speaker 4: pool now to one hundred million dollars for twenty golfers.
Speaker 4: So they're doing all these things to keep the stars
Speaker 4: happy and keep them from defecting and keep the tour interesting.
Speaker 4: When Live came along, it was an amazing opportunity for
Speaker 4: Greg Norman, the former world number one from Australia. He
Speaker 4: has been a strident critic of the PGA Tour for
Speaker 4: a really long time for failing to give star players
Speaker 4: enough opportunities and reward them for the fact that they
Speaker 4: are the people that fans tune in to see. Greg
Speaker 4: Norman was sort of the leader of that effort to
Speaker 4: get the tour to change the way it treated players,
Speaker 4: and so when the Live Tour came around and offered
Speaker 4: him the job of CEO, he jumped at that because
Speaker 4: he saw this as a way to finally get at
Speaker 4: the PGA Tour and shake it up.
Speaker 2: So how many of the players have moved over to So.
Speaker 4: The biggest names to go over are Dustin Johnson, Phil Mickelson.
Speaker 4: You've also seen Brooks Kopka, Cameron Smith, Bryson, De Shambeau,
Speaker 4: Bubba Watson, Sergio Garcia. These are some of the more
Speaker 4: well known guys. They don't have, notably the world number
Speaker 4: one and the guy who just won the Masters, John Rahm.
Speaker 4: They don't have Tiger Woods, and they don't have Roy McElroy,
Speaker 4: and McElroy in particular has been a very vocal leader
Speaker 4: of the resistance to this. Golf as a game is massive,
Speaker 4: but man's professional golf is a very small part of that,
Speaker 4: and what it's done to the world of man's professional
Speaker 4: golf is ripped it apart. Last summer when Woods flew
Speaker 4: to Delaware, McElroy was there a lot of the top golfers.
Speaker 4: They got together to say, look, we know you have
Speaker 4: problems with the way the tour is set up and
Speaker 4: we want to fix those, and the tour is going
Speaker 4: to listen to us this time, but stay with us.
Speaker 4: And it kind of galvanized them. So the defections have
Speaker 4: slowed and it's really given the tour a lot of
Speaker 4: motivation and urgency to deal with these problems. It's galvanized
Speaker 4: a lot of the players around working with the tour,
Speaker 4: and it's given them a common enemy. And honestly, I
Speaker 4: think for the tour it's been maybe a blessing in disguise,
Speaker 4: because not only does it bring all of that to
Speaker 4: help them solve these old standing problems, but it makes
Speaker 4: them look good by comparison, just in terms of sort
Speaker 4: of public relations. You know, golf has a reputation as
Speaker 4: a kind of crusty, retrograde sport and certainly has earned that,
Speaker 4: you know, with the clubs that don't allow women or
Speaker 4: minorities in, and that kind of reputation that it has,
Speaker 4: but if you look at it next to the Live Tour,
Speaker 4: which is backed by Saudi Arabia, it kind of gives
Speaker 4: the PGA Tour this this sheen of like, actually, they're
Speaker 4: the good guys in the world of golf.
Speaker 2: One of the ways, probably the way that Live has
Speaker 2: been able to push those big players is with big money.
Speaker 2: How big a difference is the money between say a
Speaker 2: tour perse and a live perse.
Speaker 4: The typical live event is a tour twenty five million
Speaker 4: dollar perse, and that's split. You know, they have a
Speaker 4: team format, so it's four teams of twelve. Out of
Speaker 4: that twenty five million. Certainly you're gonna probably go home
Speaker 4: with even as the bottom finisher, amount of money that
Speaker 4: you'd really have to do well in an old school
Speaker 4: PG Tour event to get. And some of these guys
Speaker 4: like Michelson, when he went over to the Live Tour,
Speaker 4: he lost deals with Amstell and KPMG, a lot of
Speaker 4: his big endorsement box. So the gap financially, even though
Speaker 4: the guaranteed money is definitely bigger still with the Live Tour,
Speaker 4: the gap between them I think has begun to close
Speaker 4: because of what the PGA Tour has done.
Speaker 2: And what about for fans. You mentioned that golf has
Speaker 2: this reputation as kind of a crusty old sport, and
Speaker 2: Live has tried to shake that up and create kind
Speaker 2: of a more party atmosphere out on the course. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean their slogan is golf but louder. You know,
Speaker 4: if you watch these events on TV, you'll overhear sort
Speaker 4: of club music in the background sometimes, which they allow
Speaker 4: near the tees. All the guys are wearing shorts. That
Speaker 4: looks a little different, but you know, ultimately it's still golf.
Speaker 4: If you're not interested in watching guys putt and seeing
Speaker 4: that shot tracer follow the parablo the ball, then you're
Speaker 4: not going to want to watch this, you know. In
Speaker 4: terms of like whether they make it more of a
Speaker 4: party experience for people who are there, I think that's
Speaker 4: the idea that they're going to try to unbutton this
Speaker 4: a little bit and make it more fun.
Speaker 2: Well for fans watching at home, though it does create
Speaker 2: this kind of dilemma, who do you watch You can't
Speaker 2: see some of your favorite players play together if one
Speaker 2: has gone to Live and one is stuck with the tour.
Speaker 2: How are fans responding to this? As you know, just
Speaker 2: a sport they like to watch. Well.
Speaker 4: The one interesting thing about this is that for most
Speaker 4: golf fans, you really tune in for the four majors,
Speaker 4: the Masters, the British Open, the US Open, and the
Speaker 4: PGA Championship, and those are not officially part of the
Speaker 4: PGA Tour. There's a big dust up right now about
Speaker 4: sort of how do you qualify for those majors, and
Speaker 4: players who are on the live tour are not being
Speaker 4: credited for their results by the OWGR so official World
Speaker 4: Golf rankings, They at the moment are not recognizing live
Speaker 4: results as counting towards those rankings, and the way that
Speaker 4: you qualify for the majors is according to those rankings.
Speaker 4: So golfers who are performing well on the live tour
Speaker 4: are falling down the rankings and at risk of not
Speaker 4: qualifying for majors.
Speaker 2: And why don't they count them?
Speaker 4: It's basically it's part of this conflict right between sort
Speaker 4: of the PGA Tour and old golf and this new
Speaker 4: upstart disruptor and one of the levers that's there is
Speaker 4: kind of the governing bodies getting to decide what counts
Speaker 4: towards your standings, and at the moment, the way it's
Speaker 4: set up live doesn't count. Now. I think that's a
Speaker 4: matter of intense negotiation. But what has not happened is
Speaker 4: that the majors can decide for themselves whether they want
Speaker 4: to throw out anybody who's joined the Live Tour, and
Speaker 4: they have not done that. So if you're tuning in
Speaker 4: for the Masters, you're still going to see golfers on
Speaker 4: the Live Tour competing, so it's not like they've just
Speaker 4: disappeared from your world as a golf fan. But it
Speaker 4: is true that on the tour, you know you're not
Speaker 4: going to see some of the big names and some
Speaker 4: of the best golfers in the world. My sense is, though,
Speaker 4: that enough of the best golfers are sticking around that
Speaker 4: the tour is where you go to see who's the
Speaker 4: best right now, and the live is sort of like
Speaker 4: this interesting sidelight that if you're really into golf, maybe
Speaker 4: you watch that too.
Speaker 2: After the break. What does Saudi Arabia hope to get
Speaker 2: from its big investment in golf.
Speaker 4: Anyone who's ever played this game understands what a hard game.
Speaker 2: It is, So they say, who's your favorite golfer? All
Speaker 2: of them?
Speaker 4: Anyone who's ever picked up a club a root for them.
Speaker 1: I red.
Speaker 2: You mentioned the controversy with the backers of the tour,
Speaker 2: which is Saudi Arabia. There's been a lot of tension there,
Speaker 2: especially charges that Saudi Arabia is in this for kind
Speaker 2: of sports watching, the idea that they're going to under
Speaker 2: their reputation by sponsoring a big sport and make people
Speaker 2: forget about some of the things that that government is doing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the Public Investment Fund which backs the live
Speaker 4: tour is part of this broader effort by Saudi Arabia
Speaker 4: to diversify its economy. But within that they have entered
Speaker 4: the world of sports. They have bought Newcastle United in
Speaker 4: the Premier League and they started this live tour, and
Speaker 4: that is maybe not just about diversifying your economy because frankly,
Speaker 4: the odds of them making a ton of money running
Speaker 4: a golf tour not great. A lot of what that
Speaker 4: is about, or at least people speculate, is about changing
Speaker 4: the conversation about Saudi Arabia toward things that people enjoy,
Speaker 4: right watching golf, watching soccer, and so that is the
Speaker 4: definition of sportswa washing and that is part of maybe
Speaker 4: why it's an i'll pill battle for the Live Tour
Speaker 4: they have to overcome inasmuch as there's resistance to that
Speaker 4: among fans around the world.
Speaker 2: Has there been resistance among fans among players? Some of
Speaker 2: the players who've joined Live have come under a lot
Speaker 2: of criticism.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean Phil Mickelson has borne the brunt of it.
Speaker 4: As I mentioned, he lost some sponsorships, and that has
Speaker 4: happened to other players. You know, it's not always clear
Speaker 4: that these sponsors are coming out and saying because you
Speaker 4: join the Live Tour and because of its associations with
Speaker 4: Saudi Arabia, we are no longer doing business with you.
Speaker 4: But there are these sort of conveniently timed we're going
Speaker 4: to part ways statements that happen when players have moved
Speaker 4: over to the Live Tour, So there's been that blowback.
Speaker 4: My suspicion is that if these are the best players
Speaker 4: competing in the most fun events, then people will eventually
Speaker 4: migrate to it, and that its struggles are really more
Speaker 4: about it's not winning on the product level. Right, It's
Speaker 4: not the best golf in the world. And I think
Speaker 4: there's even maybe among golf fans a sense that I
Speaker 4: want to see guys have to win to get paid.
Speaker 4: That's kind of the point of this. That pressure and
Speaker 4: that needing to perform is what makes us exciting.
Speaker 2: Like the tour does.
Speaker 4: The tour has stakes every time. I mean, the tour
Speaker 4: is ratcheting back a little bit on that idea that
Speaker 4: like you basically don't get paid if you don't perform
Speaker 4: on any given tour event. They're making it a little
Speaker 4: bit more like if you show up, you'll probably get
Speaker 4: a decent payday, but it's still much more tilted toward
Speaker 4: paying players who perform that weekend, and I think that's
Speaker 4: something that fans want to see guys performing under pressure
Speaker 4: in order to get their pay day.
Speaker 2: You said that it's going to be difficult for a
Speaker 2: Live to wind up making a ton of money off
Speaker 2: of this. Is there feeling in kind of the sports
Speaker 2: world that they're in it for the long haul, that
Speaker 2: they're committed that we're going to see Live five years,
Speaker 2: ten years down the road.
Speaker 4: I think that's going to be really fascinating to watch
Speaker 4: that unfold, Like, what is their appetite for this if
Speaker 4: it looks kind of dead in the water. I mean,
Speaker 4: they did a deal with the CW for their media rights,
Speaker 4: and it is a kind of out of the way network.
Speaker 4: By their own admission, it's sort of a second rate
Speaker 4: deal that they feel like the tour and the tour's
Speaker 4: interference in their business kind of left them relegated to
Speaker 4: that world. And it's a deal that's an advertising revenue share,
Speaker 4: you know. It's not even like the CW went out
Speaker 4: and paid them a bunch of money for their media
Speaker 4: rights and they're only drawing a few hundred thousand viewers.
Speaker 4: So how long does the public Investment Fund want to
Speaker 4: stick with something if it's not a winner in the marketplace.
Speaker 4: They have the money to do it indefinitely, and I
Speaker 4: think probably partly what they want to see is how
Speaker 4: the legal battle unfolds. But I don't know what their
Speaker 4: appetite is for doing this if it really is a
Speaker 4: money loser and just kind of a reputational liability.
Speaker 2: Obviously, PGA Tour is trying to stop live. How do
Speaker 2: you see that playing out? Can they really tell players, no,
Speaker 2: you are not allowed to play for anyone else.
Speaker 4: I think they have to be really careful, honestly, because
Speaker 4: also that brings in federal regulators looking at sort of
Speaker 4: antitrusts and monopoly issues and investigating how the tour operates
Speaker 4: in that guard and really they have over their history
Speaker 4: been allowed really broad latitude to kind of dominate the
Speaker 4: world of professional golf and the schedules of the players
Speaker 4: on the tour. They really are well served by focusing
Speaker 4: more on that battle in the marketplace. I get why
Speaker 4: they want to do that, but I think really their
Speaker 4: best move is what they're doing to try to just
Speaker 4: convince players that this is the place to play. You know,
Speaker 4: we are listening to your concerns and if you want
Speaker 4: to be a famous golfer and get rich golfing, you
Speaker 4: should golf on the PGA Tour.
Speaker 2: Hi, Ron, great talking to you, Thanks for being here.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 2: As we've heard, the dispute between Live and the PGA
Speaker 2: Tour is also playing out in court filings, so I
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to Bloomberg reporters Malfi Nayak and Eric Larson.
Speaker 2: They're covering the legal back and forth between the two sides.
Speaker 3: So as soon as LIV entered the scene and started
Speaker 3: poaching some of these big players, PGA Tour immediately started
Speaker 3: banning these plays from participating in PGA tours as punishment,
Speaker 3: accusing them of violating their contracts, and Live shot back
Speaker 3: by suing in federal court accusing PGA Tour of violating
Speaker 3: US anti trust law by behaving in a monopolistic way.
Speaker 3: And that is a similar type of laws that companies
Speaker 3: accuse each other of breaking all the time if they
Speaker 3: engage in anti competitive behavior. That is where we find
Speaker 3: these two competitors now in federal court in San Jose
Speaker 3: in California, fighting over which one of them is wrong here,
Speaker 3: whether PGA is violating US anti trust law, or, as
Speaker 3: PGA claims in a countersuit it filed, whether Live is
Speaker 3: actually in the wrong here by using its deep pockets
Speaker 3: to convince these players to violate their contracts.
Speaker 1: In addition to Liv's claim that the PGA Toor is
Speaker 1: a monopolist, PGA Toor is accused by Live of also
Speaker 1: intimidating sponsors and broad US networks of doing any business
Speaker 1: with Live or any business with Live golfers. And we'll
Speaker 1: have to see how that bears out at trial, whether
Speaker 1: there'll be enough evidence for them, you know, to back
Speaker 1: those claims.
Speaker 2: Malti, What does PGA Tour say about that?
Speaker 1: So the PGA Tour is arguing that this has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with them thwarting competition, But it's all about
Speaker 1: the investment and the sort of brand that the PGA
Speaker 1: Tour has built. What they're saying is that they don't
Speaker 1: want live to freeride on their reputation that they have
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time building over the years.
Speaker 2: And I should say that representatives for Live Golf didn't
Speaker 2: respond to requests for comment for the Bloomberg article about
Speaker 2: this case. Eric, you said, the PGA is accusing these
Speaker 2: golfers of breaking their contracts with the tour. If you're
Speaker 2: a professional golfer, you only allowed to play for PGA.
Speaker 3: Well, I guess that's one of the things we'll we'll
Speaker 3: find out in this court case. But I think the
Speaker 3: idea for PGA Tour is they're saying that if you're
Speaker 3: signed up with us, we are pooling all of your resources,
Speaker 3: all of these golfers talents. They're going to combine that
Speaker 3: talent and get the maximum value from it by letting
Speaker 3: all these broadcasters and these marketing partners and advertisers know
Speaker 3: that you're going to be here for all of these
Speaker 3: tournaments and that we have sort of this exclusive access
Speaker 3: to you and your skill and I think that that's
Speaker 3: basically what they're saying is we're here PGA working for
Speaker 3: you to get the best deal, and we can't do
Speaker 3: that if you're off playing with all the other tournaments.
Speaker 2: When we come back, how is this dispute likely to
Speaker 2: play out?
Speaker 5: All the other sports have had organizations break away from
Speaker 5: them and they finally merged. Football did it with the AFL.
Speaker 5: They made the NFL might pick four five years but
Speaker 5: for Bill Merge and the one big international golf and
Speaker 5: we'll see all this louds back together again.
Speaker 2: By the way, all these strong opinions you've been hearing
Speaker 2: today are from Mauthi's interviews with fans at golf events.
Speaker 2: PGA Tour does allow its golfers to compete in other countries,
Speaker 2: and they don't label those as off limits to its members,
Speaker 2: So why.
Speaker 1: Not live So I think that there are some of
Speaker 1: these leagues, like the European Tour, the DP Tour, like
Speaker 1: they have all these long standing agreements in place for
Speaker 1: a long time, but they are in different continents. So
Speaker 1: we're talking about this territory here on American soil and
Speaker 1: them sort of being the dominant player and having this
Speaker 1: new upstart challenge them here. So I think it's sort
Speaker 1: of this fight for dominance in America. Although there are
Speaker 1: all these larger new political issues playing in the background.
Speaker 1: When it comes to the court case itself, the court
Speaker 1: is only going to pay attention to the anti trust
Speaker 1: claims Malfi.
Speaker 2: What about fans are they weighing in?
Speaker 1: I spoke with one fan I remember who said that
Speaker 1: she was very hurt by the fact that some of
Speaker 1: the players she loved had jumped ship to this league
Speaker 1: back by Saudi Arabia. And at the same time, there
Speaker 1: were some who were very sympathetic and said, it's fine.
Speaker 1: They did it for the money, and I totally get that.
Speaker 1: You know, they have a choice, they can go where
Speaker 1: they want. So it seems like some fans are okay
Speaker 1: with what happened in terms of this new Saudi Arabian
Speaker 1: league coming forward and poaching some of the PGA Tour players,
Speaker 1: and some of them are sympathetic and they're like, we
Speaker 1: get it, It's totally fine.
Speaker 2: Eric. As you continue to watch this case, what are
Speaker 2: you looking for? How do you think ultimately it plays out.
Speaker 3: It'll be interesting to see whether Saudi Arabia follows it
Speaker 3: through or whether it says, you know what, this isn't
Speaker 3: worth the trouble and just backs out.
Speaker 1: If the case goes to trial and it's set for
Speaker 1: me next year, what I really want to see at
Speaker 1: trial is some sort of evidence that basically gives us
Speaker 1: a better understanding of what Live Golf's business model is
Speaker 1: and what the endgame is in terms of whether they
Speaker 1: actually want to profit from this, because they have said
Speaker 1: in fis that so far they're not being able to
Speaker 1: make a lot of money because of what the PGA
Speaker 1: Tour is allegedly doing. This is probably the first time
Speaker 1: the PGA business model, as well as how it operates,
Speaker 1: its handbook and regulations that it has for players, are
Speaker 1: being tested in courts. I'm very curtious to see how
Speaker 1: this plays out in the future, just in terms of
Speaker 1: what this means for a legacy player that's been around
Speaker 1: for so long.
Speaker 2: Malthy, Eric, thanks so much for coming on the show,
Speaker 2: Thanks for having us, Thanks for listening to us here
Speaker 2: at the Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg
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Speaker 3: H