1 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you 8 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,639 Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is 9 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with 10 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: for joining me for Session three seventy three of the 12 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our 13 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: conversation after word from our sponsors. 14 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Jasmin Morris and I'm on the Therapy for 15 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 2: Black Girls podcast. I'm in session today unpacking equine therapy. 16 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: After listening to Cowboy Carter four too much over this 17 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: summer and hearing Beyonce tell us to look at that horse, 18 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: Look at that horse, Look at that horse, it was 19 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: only right for me to then find out about equine 20 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: assistant psychotherapy, a form of therapy that incorporates a live 21 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: horse and session with a client to learn more about 22 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: this unique type of therapy. I'm joined today by second 23 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: year MSW candidate Jasmine Morris. Jasmine works at Ebony Horsewoman 24 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: Equestrian and Therapeutic Center in Hartford, Connecticut, where she serves 25 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: as an Equine Assistant Psychotherapy clinician. In this role, she 26 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: provides therapeutic services on the supervision of Ebony Hartswoman's Director 27 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: of Therapy. In our conversation, we explore what a session 28 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: of equine assistant psychotherapy looks like, the potential benefits one 29 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: could reap through this form of therapy, and how interacting 30 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: with horses can help us build on our coping and 31 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: emotional skills. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, 32 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: please share it with us on social media using the 33 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: hashtag TVG in Session or join us over in the 34 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: sister Circle To talk more about the episode. You can 35 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: join us at Community not Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. 36 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Jasmine. 37 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be here. 38 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm so excited to chat with you. So it's 39 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: so funny because we were trying to think about, like, 40 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: what is the therapy for black girls? Tie into Cowboy 41 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: Carter and I was like, oh, equine therapy, Like, we 42 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: have been wanting to do this episode for a while, 43 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: so I'm so happy we found you. So can you 44 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: talk with us first about what is therapy? 45 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? So, equine assisted psychotherapy is an experiential therapy treatment 46 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: that's so far been proven to increase self efficacy, self esteem, 47 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: positive identity in individuals, along with helping them reduce symptoms 48 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: of depression and anxiety. And basically it's a form of 49 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: therapy that involves working with horses instead of just regular 50 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: talk therapy. 51 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: Got it? And this is such a niche type of therapy. 52 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: How did you find it and how did you become 53 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 1: interested in doing this work? 54 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 2: Yeah? So growing up I knew I was working with animals, 55 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: and then in my junior year of college, I realized 56 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: I wanted to do something involving animal assistant therapy. A 57 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: lot of my work was with dogs. But then I 58 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: discovered Ebony Horsewomen because I started riding there and they 59 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: were like, we do equs a psychotherapy and I was 60 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: like great. And then when I was getting my master's 61 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: at Social work, guess who's one of the providers. I 62 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: could do an internship with Ebony horsewomen. So I started 63 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: there as a social work intern, got my caseload of clients, 64 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 2: so I was originally meeting with four and really learned 65 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: about the process of how equinassistant psychotherapy works, how to 66 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: use it with clients through shadowing the other therapists and 67 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: having my own caseload. 68 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: Got it. So what actually is happening in an equine 69 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: assisted psychotherapy session? What are you doing in relation to 70 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: the horse to actually bring about some of this change? 71 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it really depends on the client. Every equans 72 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: assistant psychotherapy session has three main players. Your clinician so me, 73 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: and then you have your horse specialists, who's there to 74 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: focus on the horse because they are still big animals 75 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 2: with their own thoughts and feelings, so we want someone 76 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: to check in with them too. And then you have 77 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,799 Speaker 2: your client. And it really depends on your client's needs 78 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 2: and wants out of the session. So I have one client, 79 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 2: she's there for the horse. She's there to talk to 80 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: the horse. I'm there to just foster what she needs, 81 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: but she comes for the horse. I know that because 82 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 2: she had a lot of barriers to therapy in general, 83 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: So it was just getting her interacting with the horse, 84 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: and finally we're at a place like seven months later 85 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: where she's ready to engage and start doing therapy. So 86 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: for some clients it's just breaking down a barrier to 87 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 2: what therapy can be. I have another client where like, 88 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: small talk is our goal. He has really bad anxiety, 89 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: really bad social anxiety. So just getting him to like, hi, 90 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 2: my name is X, I'm this year's old and talking 91 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: to the horse as if it was a person, but 92 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 2: building those small talk skills. He's going into high school. 93 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 2: So now when he goes into high school and has 94 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: to make new friends, he's like, I've done this. I 95 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: know my cues and what I need to hit to 96 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 2: get this conversation rolling. So in theory, he could start 97 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: making friends at his new school. I have one where 98 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: it's routine building. Every session we come in, we groom 99 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: the horse. There's a very specific method to grooming the horse, 100 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 2: and through that it's building routines. So that way, when 101 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 2: she got back home, she has the ability to stick 102 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: to the routines at home, because that was a big 103 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: issue that was causing conflict between her and her parents. 104 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: Got it, So jas when what I'm hearing you say 105 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: is that, like the horse really is just the backdrop 106 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: for a lot of these therapeutic interventions. The horse can 107 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: be the focus, but the horse can also be like 108 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: an avenue to like, Okay, if you're feeling anxious, like 109 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: you can talk to the horse until you feel comfortable 110 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: enough to talk to a person. 111 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of like play therapy or art therapy. 112 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 2: In play therapy, the kids playing with toys. The toys 113 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: aren't doing the therapy, but it's a tool that the 114 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 2: therapist can utilize to get the progress that needs to happen. 115 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 2: The same thing with art therapy. The art is therapeutic 116 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: to the person. They're creating, they're expressing themselves, but it's 117 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 2: not doing the true work. The therapist is using it 118 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: as a tool to get the client to the point 119 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 2: where they're willing to express that in a verbal way, 120 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 2: or express whatever they need to express in a verbal 121 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: communication for so that the therapist can engage in the 122 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 2: therapy to process with them. 123 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: Got it. And would you say that there is like 124 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: an ideal client for equin assistant psychotherapy. 125 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: I mean ideal client. You don't really see that in 126 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: the therapy world, everyone's going to come in with their 127 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: own issues and what they want to address. But if 128 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: you're willing to work with the horse, I'm willing to 129 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: work with you. Equity is a psychotherapy. There's a horse there, 130 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: but at ebony where you also have other animals. So 131 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: if you're just willing to work with animals, I'll meet 132 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: you where you're at. I have people who want equan 133 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: it's is a psychotherapy. They're afraid of horses, so I 134 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: meet them where they're at, and that's part of the process, 135 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: just building up where they can overcome their fear, so 136 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 2: that way they can overcome their fears and other avenues 137 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: of their life. So there's not an ideal client. It's 138 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 2: really about how as a therapist I can meet my 139 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: clients where they're at and use the horse as a 140 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: part of the process. 141 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: Got it, So what might a typical day look like 142 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: for you? 143 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: So they is kind of a misnomer. You start with 144 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,239 Speaker 2: your and your intake usually takes about forty five minutes. 145 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: Just come in and ask them what they want from 146 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: the process, because we get the referral. But let's say 147 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: an outside agency did the referral and then the client 148 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 2: has their own perspective on why they're there, they might conflict, 149 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: So we do our intake, really get to hear from 150 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: the client like why are you here, what do you 151 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: want from me? What do you want out of the horse, 152 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: try to understand and lay the groundwork for how our 153 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: sessions are going to be. Then every client gets to 154 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 2: pick their own horse. As as a therapist, don't assign 155 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 2: a horse to our client because sometimes they might look 156 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 2: at a horse in the padic and they're like, that's 157 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: the one. And so we really want clients to have 158 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 2: their own agency in the sessions, and through that is 159 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: picking which horse they want to use. And sometimes a 160 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 2: client might work with a horse the whole entire time 161 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 2: they're there. Sometimes the client's like, I'm going to switch 162 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 2: my horse every week, So we really operate and give 163 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 2: them the agency to make that decision. And then each 164 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 2: session lasts for sixty minutes, and as I said before, 165 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: goes really depends on what the client wants to address 166 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: and how they want to utilize the horse or how I, 167 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 2: as a therapist want to incorporate the horse to address 168 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: their needs. So it really can depend. Sometimes it's a 169 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: talk therapy session or we're chatting, they're penning the horse, 170 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: we're just standing, like the horse grays, or it's the 171 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 2: horse is an active participant in the session, through like 172 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: the client engaging and grooming the horse, through the client 173 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: talking to the horse. It really depends on what the 174 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: client needs and how I, as a therapist want to 175 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 2: work with them to meet their needs. 176 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: Got it? And you mentioned that there's typically a third 177 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: person there that is like tending to the horse. Can 178 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about like the collaboration with 179 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: this person, because I'm thinking about like the confidentiality concerns 180 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: and like having this third person there, what is the 181 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: relationship between the three of you as a part of 182 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: the work. 183 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 2: So it really depends. Most horse specialists, like I said, 184 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 2: they're there to focus on the horse. I've done a 185 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 2: horse by for a couple sessions. My job is to 186 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: make sure the horse doesn't spook, and if the horse spooks, 187 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: calm them down. 188 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: And there was. 189 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 2: An incident where like the horse freaked out and we 190 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: couldn't figure out why. It's the job of the horse 191 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 2: specialists to remove the horse from the situation. It's the 192 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: job of the therapist to communicate to the client Hey, 193 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 2: the horse is having a moment. What can we do together? 194 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 2: So the horse therapist is there, they're really a passive participant. 195 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 2: Some therapists choose to engage the horse specialists, Like for 196 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 2: my client who struggles with small talk, that's a good 197 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: person who is bounded by confidentiality, who's not me the 198 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: therapist that he could talk to. So sometimes you might 199 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: incorporate them more. But they're just there. They don't fill 200 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 2: out the soap notes, which is how we do our 201 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 2: recordings of the sessions. They don't fill out anything. They 202 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: don't see it. They are there, they get the horse 203 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: from the paddock, they stand there, they leave. They're not 204 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 2: allowed to communicate. So they're bounded by the same confidentiality rules. 205 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: And if not even more that the therapist. I can 206 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 2: write the notes. If there's any agency providers, I'm communicating 207 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: with them. Horse specialists. They come for the hour, they leave. 208 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: That's it. 209 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: Got it? And so are they a part of some 210 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: kind of like accrediting body. You said that they are 211 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 1: bound by the same confidentiality, So is there some kind 212 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: of body oversight? Yeah? 213 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: So Ebny Horsewoman has its own training program for clinicians, 214 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: usually who understand mental health know how to work with 215 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 2: people to address mental health needs, but don't know horses. 216 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 2: And then a horse specialist they know the horse, but 217 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: they don't know the same hippo rules or how to 218 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: deal with individuals who might have mental health issues. So 219 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 2: Ebny Horsewoman has its own kind of certification program that 220 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: they've developed to bring these two parties together and say 221 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: here's how you run a session together. So every horse 222 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: specialist has to be trained by a any horsewomen to 223 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 2: know that any horsewoman's confidentiality rules. Same way if you 224 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: are coming to work as a social worker and a 225 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: new agency, that agency is going to train you on 226 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: how they operate. Ebny Horsewoman does that for their clinicians 227 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: and for their horse specialists. 228 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: Got it. So another form of equine therapy is therapeutic 229 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: horseback riding. Can you say more about that practice? 230 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's where I started off. In my junior 231 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: year of college, I got an internship at Maine's Emotions, 232 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 2: which is a therapeutic riding center in Middletown, Connecticut. And 233 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 2: so therapeutic horseback riding is very much similar to physical 234 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 2: therapy occupational therapy, where you're physically engaging with the horse 235 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 2: versus the psychotherapy aspect that I do at Ebony Horse Women, 236 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 2: where it's very much more mental health focus therapeutic course 237 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: back writing tends to be very physical in how it's 238 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 2: working with patients. So at Main's I got to do 239 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 2: various positions where I was a horse leader, so I'm 240 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 2: the person walking the horse or a sidewalker, just providing 241 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 2: some physical assistance because we had individuals of all ability levels, 242 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: so sometimes they need physical support while they're on the horse, 243 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 2: So I got to learn different kinds of holes. I 244 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 2: got to learn how to take someone awful horse in 245 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: emergency situations, and it was really interesting to see a 246 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: different perspective on how to use a horse and how 247 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 2: they work with individuals of all physical, mental occupational levels. 248 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: Got it. So you've already mentioned I mean, we know 249 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: horses are big, live animals, so you've already talked a 250 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: little bit about this, But can you outline like some 251 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: of the safety concerns and like what is the I 252 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: would imagine there's some kind of like training and like 253 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: orientation to the horse that you do as a part 254 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: of becoming an equine assistant psychotherapy client. Can you talk 255 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: about that? 256 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, So horses. They're big. For some people they're scary, 257 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: Like for me as a kid I grew up, I 258 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 2: looked at a horse on television and I was like, 259 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: I want one. My parents still can't figure out why. 260 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 2: But for some people who have never seen us, course, 261 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: especially working in Hartford, people are like, they're horses here. 262 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: So it's really just getting them to understand, like, yes, 263 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 2: this is a live animal, and getting them to understand 264 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 2: the different reaction horses can have. Just like how we 265 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 2: have different facial reactions, different body language to how we're feeling, 266 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 2: horses are the same. Their ears move different ways, their 267 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: tails move different ways, their stance changes depending on how 268 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 2: they're feeling. So in the beginning we communicate with the 269 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 2: client like, hey, this is how the horse is feeling. 270 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 2: Or if my client's expressing something like they're getting frustrated, 271 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, I can tell you're frustrated. Look at 272 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: your horses also getting frustrated. Because usually, especially the good 273 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: therapy horses, we have one that's just like he's on it. 274 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: You can't tell him he's not a therapist. He starts 275 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: building a reaction. Anytime my client's building a reaction, So 276 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: it's really interesting telling the clients about the horses and 277 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: their behavior, one to keep them safe, but two as 278 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: a part of the therapeutic process because then they start recognizing, oh, 279 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: here's how I'm feeling. The horse is telling me how 280 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: I'm feeling. If they're not in a place where they 281 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 2: can't recognize their own emotions or having issues recognizing, but 282 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 2: they can check in with the horse and be like, 283 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: Jasmine told me that this is what the horse does 284 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: when it's frustrated. I wonder if he's picking up on 285 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: me being frustrated. And that's what your first session with 286 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: the client, when you get in, have them pick their horse. 287 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 2: That's a lot of what that is all about, establishing 288 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: what a horse does, how it reacts, saying, hey, you 289 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: might not want to put your body there because the 290 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: horse might step on you. Because have binocular visions, so 291 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: their eyes are on the side of their head, so 292 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: they can't see directly in front of them, and they 293 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: can't see directly in back. They can see better on 294 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: their sides, so if you're standing in front of them, 295 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: they're like you're a threat, or if you're like in 296 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: a little blind spot, they're like, I can't see where 297 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: your feet are, but I don't want to step on you, 298 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 2: So telling the person, hey, it's easier for you to 299 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: move than for them to move, so maybe you want 300 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 2: to take up step back so they don't step on 301 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: your foot. 302 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, can you say 303 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: more about the horse's behavior and like how they show 304 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: different I guess even aspects of their own person, and 305 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: like what are you looking for and observing in the 306 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: horse to show frustration or excitement or whatever? Can you 307 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: say more about that? 308 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So horses show their body language primarily through their ears, 309 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: their tails, their nostrils, and all of those kind of 310 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: work in tandem. Just like if you're observing a person, 311 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: they might have their arms cross but they're smiling. That 312 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: doesn't mean they're angry. So you have to look at 313 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: everything in tandem to understand how the horse is feeling. 314 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: So if the horse starts pitting their ears, clenching their 315 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: tails to their body and stiffens up, I'm like, I 316 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: need to move because they're about to flip out and 317 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 2: I don't need to be here. Whereas if their ears 318 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 2: are swiveling, they're like licking and chewing, because horses eat 319 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 2: when they're comfortable. So if they're looking chewing, they're like, Oh, 320 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: they're good. Their chail's just swishing. I'm like, oh, he's vibing. 321 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: He's having a good day. So you have to look 322 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: at everything in tandem to understand. 323 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: And you mentioned early on that some of the benefits 324 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: that have been studied are things like self efficacy and 325 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: even help with depression. Can you say more about how 326 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: equinais and psychotherapy helps with something like depression? 327 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 2: Well, we have done studies for years and no, animals 328 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 2: make us feel better like they just do when you're 329 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 2: working with animals. I believe it's a release of dopamine 330 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 2: and serotonin happens in the brain when you're just sitting 331 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 2: and like petting a dog. So we know that animals 332 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: make us feel better. So equinasis, psychotherapy and animals is 333 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 2: a therapy as a whole kind of took that and said, okay, 334 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 2: animals make people feel better. How do we use that 335 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: as part of the therapeutic process? And so now we know, okay, 336 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 2: they help people feel better. Then it comes to the 337 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: therapists that use animal or use the horse in tandem 338 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 2: with what the biological response is going to be to 339 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: help the client attack whatever problems they want to. So 340 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 2: that involves, especially for like depression anxiety, working with the 341 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 2: client to develop strategies on how to feel better using 342 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: the horse as a tool, and in that safe space 343 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 2: develop those strategies so that way when they go out 344 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: into the real world they have the strategies in place, 345 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: in a safe space with something that made him feel better, 346 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: they can in theory use those strategies. Again, just like 347 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 2: with the client I talked about earlier, he has really 348 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 2: bad anxiety. So we get him working with the horse, 349 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 2: which he loves to do, talking to the horse saying Hi, 350 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: I like this, I like that, getting him to lay 351 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 2: the foundation of the basics of a conversation, and I 352 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 2: play the horse and I respond as So that way, 353 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 2: when he goes into high school, he's like, Okay, hey, 354 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 2: I've done this. Me and my horse best friend have 355 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 2: done it together. I can go out and make real 356 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 2: friends with other people because I've already done the basics 357 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: with my horse. 358 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: So can you talk about the transition from like you 359 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: mentioned if we use anxiety as an example, so we 360 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: are getting more comfortable with the horse. I'm working through 361 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: my own social anxiety with the horse. You just mentioned 362 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: that you will sometimes then play the horse. What is 363 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: the treatment process to go from being more comfortable with 364 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: the horse to being less uncomfortable with friends in a 365 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: high school? 366 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 2: This is where and where I use my horse specialists 367 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 2: a lot. So first off, we started trying to get 368 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 2: this kid to hold a minute conversation and he was like, 369 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 2: he really stuttered a lot, like he couldn't think of 370 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 2: things to say. And so we did every other week. 371 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: One week would be just a regular talk therapy session, 372 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 2: kind of a check in on how is week is going. 373 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: The next time it's like, all right, you did a minute, 374 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 2: can you do two minutes talking to this animal? And 375 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 2: we had, like I said, ebony horseman has a wide 376 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 2: range of animals, not just horses, So we would go 377 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: to different horses to mimic going to different people or 378 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,479 Speaker 2: going to the other animals at the barn and just 379 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: getting him and every single time he has to talk 380 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 2: about something new, because every person is going to have 381 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 2: a new interest that you might relate to. And then 382 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 2: later on, as you started getting comfortable and getting to 383 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 2: the point where he could go fifteen minutes just talking 384 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 2: about nothing or whatever was important to him in the moment. 385 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: The turtle is his favorite. He'll go for hours with 386 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 2: the turtle, and I'm like, great, getting him to say, 387 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 2: all right, you have this horse specialist here. You know 388 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: who she is. She's been here this whole time. Can 389 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: you talk to her? Then our normal horse specialist was 390 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 2: out on leave. All right, there's a new horse specialist here. 391 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: Can you talk to her now, somewhat different, someone you 392 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 2: haven't really engaged with. Getting him to the point where, 393 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 2: no matter what situation and every situation is in this 394 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 2: safe space that we've created, whatever situation I put you in, 395 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 2: Let's say I say thirty minutes talk about this, he 396 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 2: can do it. So that way, when he goes out, 397 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: he's like, oh, I've already done these different scenarios and stuff. 398 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 2: I can do it out in the real world. 399 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: You also mentioned that you've had a client who has 400 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: not had good luck maybe with traditional talk therapy. Can 401 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: you say more about how people who maybe have not 402 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: benefited from it, or maybe resistant even to traditional talk 403 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: therapy might benefit from equin assistant psychotherapy. 404 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, with her, it was a lot of working and 405 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: just meeting her where she's at. In the beginning, it 406 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 2: was alrighty, I know, you don't want to talk to me. 407 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: I'm fine with that. You're gonna give me a one 408 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 2: word answer. Great, I'm just happy you showed up. And 409 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 2: she really struggled with attendance because she didn't see the value. 410 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 2: So I was like, all right, I know you're here 411 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: for the horse. I won't push you as much, but 412 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: I want you to come and I want you to 413 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 2: work with the horse. You don't have to talk to me. 414 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: You could come groom the horse for an hour and 415 00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: I'll just stay in here, but I want you to 416 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: come and show up every week. And so she started 417 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 2: showing up every week, and there was like one day 418 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 2: where she just came in and she was frustrated, and 419 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 2: I'm like, what are you frustrated about? Tell me. I 420 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 2: could see you're frustrated. The horse gets you're frustrated. It's 421 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 2: affecting how you're working with him. Tell me. And because 422 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: I had just given her the space to just show 423 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: up and be there, she was like, this is what 424 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 2: I'm frustrated about. And I could do the therapeutic part, 425 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 2: validating her feelings, checking her where she needed to be checked, 426 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 2: because sometimes she needs that, like, hey, you need to 427 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 2: step back and see the other perspective, but giving her 428 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: the space of being like, I'm not here to judge 429 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: you and saying she's going through a lot right now. 430 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 2: I don't know what it's like to be in her situation. 431 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 2: And unfortunately a lot of her service providers are hitting 432 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 2: her with the I know what it's like to be there, 433 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: and she's like, no, you don't. She's housing insecure, and 434 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: that's been a big one. A lot of her service 435 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 2: providers are like, I know what it's like and she's like, no, 436 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: you don't. You get to go home and sleep in 437 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 2: a nice bed. And I told her, yeah, I do, 438 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 2: so tell me what it's like to be you because 439 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: I don't know, and just giving her that space. And 440 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: now we're at a point where she's like, oh, this 441 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 2: girl sees me. The horse doesn't just see me, she 442 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: also sees me. And now we're at a point where 443 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 2: she's willing to talk. She's willing to let me go 444 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 2: to bat for her because I was like, I'm here 445 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: for you. I know you were here for the horse, 446 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 2: but I'm also here for you, and she's recognizing that 447 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: the relationship she has with the horse can also be 448 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: had with me. She's like Oh, this person won't judge me. 449 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: She's here for me. She'll support me the same way 450 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 2: I allowed her to build that relationship with her horse. 451 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: Got it. And it sounds like you're working with a 452 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: wide variety of ages. Is there like a age that's 453 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: too young to work with the horses or what are 454 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: the age requirements? 455 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: We usually start at five, mostly because by that point 456 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 2: they have a little bit of sense of self, little 457 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 2: bit of awareness of where they're bodies at, how to 458 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: communicate and size wise. We have a miniature pony that 459 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 2: roughly can be dealt with by a five year old. 460 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 2: So we start at five and then go up. I've 461 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 2: seen clients there it's old at seventy so five to 462 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 2: as old as you want to be. As long as 463 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 2: you can physically interact with the horse, we will have 464 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 2: you at our agency. 465 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: Got it. I'm thinking many black people have not maybe 466 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: grown up in areas where there were access to horses. 467 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: Can you talk about some of the unique benefits for 468 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: equine therapy for black people? 469 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 2: Well, it's just that exposure to the animal. And then 470 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: we found it Evity Horsewomen's Research, being an urban riding center, 471 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 2: they found that working with horses for inner city youth 472 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 2: in particular, that's where a lot of their programs are developed. 473 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: They found that it was really beneficial for them to 474 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 2: not only address the different areas that they were being 475 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 2: affected by in their life, but also for like just 476 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,919 Speaker 2: long term success coming through the program, whether through just 477 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 2: learning about horses and doing horseback riding, through their Junior 478 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 2: Mounted Patrol program, through their Dessage team, through Equalness to 479 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 2: the psychotherapy. They have found that youth who came through 480 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 2: Eveny Horsewomen versus just youth in Hartford in general had 481 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 2: long term mental health outcomes and they were better because 482 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: they came through Aveny Horsewomen. So a lot of Ebny 483 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 2: Horsewomen's research through the kids who came through their program 484 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 2: shows that versus the kids and just Hartford who didn't 485 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: come through the program, these kids have better outcomes. Ebny 486 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 2: Horsewomen has created a family in a safe space for 487 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 2: these kids. Forget the horses, it's the people there who 488 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 2: have really been the backbone of creating that space. I 489 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: give miss Kelly her props. She started Ebony Horsewomen as 490 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 2: a riding group first. I believe it was single bombs 491 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 2: in Hartford as the therapeutic thing for her because she 492 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 2: grew up with horses and then she said, no, the 493 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 2: kids need this, and that's really what drove her, and 494 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 2: just creating a family for these kids really was the 495 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: backbone of what Ebney Horsewomen was about and came to be. 496 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: Can you say more about what kinds of training is 497 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: offered at Ebony Horsewomen, Like, how are they actually training 498 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: people to become equine therapists? 499 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we have our gallop certification program that was 500 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 2: developed by ms Kelly and I want to say an 501 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: elsus W. Don't quote me on that one, but it 502 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 2: was developed by someone in the mental health field. To 503 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 2: take a two pronged approach, you have your horse specialists 504 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 2: who know all about horses. These are people who came 505 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 2: up through Ebony and has worked with horses outside, people 506 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 2: who have like animal science degrees or worked in barns 507 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: and have like measurable interactions with horses. So you have 508 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 2: all these people who know horses, and then you have 509 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: your mental health professionals. These are your lmft's, your la mphs, 510 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 2: you have your lcsws, your lmsw's. You have all these 511 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 2: people who understand and know mental health. How do you 512 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 2: bring them together in a certification course to understand each 513 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,719 Speaker 2: other and how to run a therapy session. So I 514 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: took gallup my senior year of college, went in as 515 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 2: a horse specialist only to get a master's and they 516 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: were like, all right, well you know what you're doing. 517 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 2: And for me, as a horse specialist who had it 518 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 2: started getting my trading in social work or in mental health, 519 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 2: it was really good for me as a horse specialist. 520 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 2: They hear the questions the mental health professionals were asking 521 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 2: because I was like, oh, I didn't even think about that, 522 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 2: And then I could give them feedback saying like, hey, 523 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 2: here's what your horse is telling you. There was a 524 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: session when I started off as a horse specialist. It's 525 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 2: an LMSW but he had worked at Ebony before, so 526 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 2: he knew what he was doing with horses. And I'm like, hey, 527 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: your horse is nitching on your client. And he was 528 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: like he had to pause a session and he was like, 529 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 2: what are you talking about. I'm like, look at you, 530 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 2: how your horse is reacting whatever. That kid was saying 531 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: that horse does not believe it. Come to find out, 532 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 2: the kid was not lying but embellishing how well his 533 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 2: relationship with school was at the moment, and the horse 534 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 2: was like getting frustrated, and I was like, hey, so 535 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,479 Speaker 2: gallup allows for professionals to come together, learn about horses, 536 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 2: learn about mental health, learn about hip hoo, all that 537 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 2: fun stuff, but also interact so that way in the 538 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 2: sessions you could come together and get the best therapeutic outcomes. 539 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: So what are some of the other questions that you 540 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: maybe listened to or heard the therapist asking that we're 541 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: very intriguing for you. 542 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: Well, a lot of them were very much focused on 543 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: how to use the horse. And Miss Malita is the 544 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 2: LMSW who runs the gallop training currently, and you learned 545 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 2: this a lot when you work in social work. There's 546 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 2: no specific way to run a social work secession. Yukon 547 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 2: is very much like, we are not going to give 548 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: you activities to do with your clients. We're gonna give 549 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 2: you the theories and it's up to you how you 550 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: use them. Miss Wilida is the same way. She's like, 551 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna give you a prescribe list of activities, 552 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: but I'm gonna tell you how the horse works out 553 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 2: and you know how kind of the human brain works, 554 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: how mental health works. It's up to you to find that. 555 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 2: Mall and just hearing their questions of how they were 556 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: thinking through the content. Thinking through a horse's body language 557 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 2: really provided an interesting perspective for me to be like, Oh, 558 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 2: that's how a social worker would see a horse reacting, 559 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 2: That's how they would interpret it. That's how a social 560 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 2: worker would handle a spooking. Because someone asks what do 561 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 2: I do with my horse spooks? And I have a 562 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 2: client and Miss Walita was like, well, it's on the 563 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,239 Speaker 2: horse specialist to deal with the horse, and it's on 564 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: you to communicate that to the client. And I was 565 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 2: really interesting to see how their verbal thought process on, 566 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 2: like how they would work with a client through that, 567 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 2: because Facilitia asked him. She was like, all right, you 568 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 2: have a horsepooking? What would you do? And listening to 569 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 2: that social worker in particular talk about her thought process, 570 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 2: talk about how it would depend on what a client 571 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 2: needed or like if that client had a history of anxiety, 572 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 2: communicating how the horse got anxious and how the horse 573 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: and the horse specialists were gonna work together to calm 574 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: down and relating it back to the therapy session while 575 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 2: also getting the client to move to a safe space. 576 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 2: Hearing that was like, oh, okay, cool, because I had 577 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: words with horses. I'm like, here's what I do when 578 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 2: a horse books. But now I have this added thing 579 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: of a client who might interpret the horsepooking in a 580 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 2: variety of ways. How do I deal with that? Now? 581 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 2: As the clinician was really interesting and I think it 582 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 2: gave me a leg up over other ebony horsewoment clinicians 583 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 2: because I was like, I knew both come in and 584 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: I got to do gallop from the perspective of someone 585 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 2: who knew horses but then came in as a clinician. 586 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 2: So I got to hear all the things y'all struggled with. 587 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 2: So now I get to do it. 588 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: Better more from our conversation after the break, and I 589 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: would imagine, you know, if you have a session where 590 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,959 Speaker 1: the horse does get spooped, I think for a lot 591 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: of clients there may be enough anxiety where they're like, 592 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to come back or 593 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: do I want to work with the horse anymore? So 594 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: how do you deal with this? 595 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, thankfully I have not had a horse spook 596 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 2: on me during a session. I had it spooped during 597 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 2: a riding lesson, and so it was this little five 598 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 2: year old and she's been on horses I spooped before, 599 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 2: but she's still little and this one just wouldn't calm down. 600 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: So I was like, hey, let's get off, let's work 601 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: together to calm him down, and just getting her to 602 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 2: see how I calmed the horse down, and I was like, hey, 603 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: sometimes we get scared, but we have to work through it. 604 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 2: Or sometimes our horse gets scared and we need to 605 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: respect that. But that doesn't mean the horse doesn't like us. 606 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 2: And she was like, oh my god, the horse doesn't 607 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 2: like me. And I was like, no, no, no, sweetie, 608 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 2: he does, but something scared him and we got to 609 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 2: respect that. And sure enough, next week she came and 610 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 2: she was like, went up to his stall door and 611 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: she's like this big, like she can barely see into 612 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 2: the staw. She's like, are you feeling better now? So 613 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 2: really just thinking about like how on the fly do 614 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 2: I communicate and get this kid who's tiny, Like she's 615 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: a small five year old, she's so precious. How do 616 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 2: I get her to one safely get off the horse 617 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 2: while he's freaking out. Two get her to like understand 618 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 2: why the horse is reacting this way, it's not her fault. 619 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 2: And three get her to want to come back and 620 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 2: get on another horse, And I think I did a 621 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 2: good job because sure enough she was back and she's like, 622 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 2: are you feeling better? 623 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: So for the people who don't have the benefit of 624 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: maybe being in the Hartford area and getting the certification 625 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: through Ebony Hearts Woman, what does the certification process look like? 626 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: Is there a national body that people can become certified 627 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: to become equine therapists through. 628 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 2: So that's kind of the problem with animal cism therapy. 629 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: It's so niche right now, and so there's pockets of 630 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: people doing it, like Denver great space to be The 631 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 2: University of Denver has a great human Animal research Institute. 632 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 2: So it really depends on looking in your area, finding 633 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 2: what farms are around you, and doing the research. Unfortunately, 634 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 2: there's not a national accrediting service because it's so new. 635 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 2: We've had service dogs, we've had therapeutic writing for a while, 636 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 2: but the actual mental health portion to it is so new. 637 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: For a research project I did, I said that this 638 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 2: is the third generation of animal cisi therapy with the 639 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 2: big focus on mental health. So there's no nationals, there's 640 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 2: just pockets. So you really have to look for the 641 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: pockets and find who's doing what right, And honestly, if 642 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,479 Speaker 2: you can't find it, but you have the background, you 643 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 2: have the connections, be like miss Kelly and just say 644 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 2: all right, we need this. I'm doing it, because that's 645 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 2: how these places get started. Someone was like, I know 646 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 2: what I'm doing, I'm gonna do it, and so if 647 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 2: you have the ability, I recommend doing it. 648 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: How might somebody vet the legitimacy of an equine therapy practice? 649 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: Because I think that there could be people who know 650 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: horses but don't know like the mental health piece, right, 651 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 1: So how do you vet legitimacy. 652 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 2: If you're a client who wants to do animal system therapy, 653 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: that's checking your clinician's background because in and intake, your 654 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 2: clinician should do their due diligence of saying hi, my 655 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 2: name is like all my clients, I'm like, I am 656 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 2: a social work intern. Here's what that means. It means 657 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 2: everything I do is being checked by somebody else. All 658 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 2: my notes are going to be checked by a clinical supervisor. 659 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,959 Speaker 2: I work hand in hand with a clinical supervisor. Here's 660 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 2: what I can do. Here's what I can't do. Because us, 661 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 2: through Yukon, we do get clients for our internships, but 662 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 2: we are still learning. We don't have our degrees, we 663 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 2: don't have our certifications yet. And they're like, here's how 664 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 2: you be upfront with your clients. So you have to 665 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 2: do your due diligence. Check what your credentials of your 666 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 2: clinician are, check the history of the organization. Check who's 667 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 2: involved with the organization, like Gallop from Ebity Horsewomen. National 668 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 2: Assodociation of Social Workers list it as continuing education credits 669 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 2: for social workers. That is something that lets you know, okay, 670 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: a national board is checking what they're doing. We have 671 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 2: culturally competent equinances to psychotherapy with a focus on veterans 672 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 2: that we're doing. That training's coming up soon. That one 673 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 2: is also we filled out our application. The National Academy 674 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 2: Social Workers checked it out. They said, all right, you're 675 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 2: listed as a provider to do continuing education credits. So 676 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,439 Speaker 2: that's one way check if they're getting those in. They'll 677 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 2: be listed on the National Association of Social Workers website. 678 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 2: You can see what providers are on there as continuing 679 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: education credits. That's one way to know if your agency 680 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 2: is getting checked by somebody. So do you have to 681 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 2: do your due diligence and do your research, but checking 682 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 2: who is involved with the agency, checking the credentials, and 683 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 2: just unfortunately you have to do the legwork because it's 684 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 2: so niche, there's no real association overseeing it. 685 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: How common is it, Jasmine for equinicist and tycho therapy 686 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: to maybe be covered by insurance? Are you aware if 687 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 1: it's covered? 688 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 2: Actually was doing a paper on this, so it's a 689 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 2: good question. So animals is a therapy technically has no 690 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 2: billing code by insurance. No form of animalsis the therapy does. However, 691 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 2: agencies can bill it. So like for ebony horsewomen, we 692 00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 2: partner with Husky, which is Medicare in Connecticut it's called Cusky, 693 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: and then we're starting a partnership with ETNA so we 694 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 2: can take and bill Husky insurance for psychotherapy sessions. And 695 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 2: when I was doing kind of my research for this project, 696 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 2: I found that in the United States there's no billing 697 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 2: codes for animal SISS therapy And there's been a lot 698 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 2: of pushback on that and creating that because insurance providers 699 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 2: want to prove the efficacy of animal CISIS therapy and 700 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 2: want to spend years doing research, but then not paying 701 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 2: for anybody to do the research, So they're saying, well, 702 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 2: there's not enough research out there, we're just not going 703 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 2: to create billing codes. And then the actual mythology of 704 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 2: creating billing codes, do you build separately based on animals? 705 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 2: Do you build separately based on clinicians degree? And so 706 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 2: figuring that out so agencies can bill insurance, they just 707 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 2: have to be a little more creative on how they 708 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 2: build insurance. But evityhorsemen, we do take insurance. As part 709 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,439 Speaker 2: of my research for this project that I was doing, 710 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 2: I did find that there were some places billing insurance 711 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 2: in other areas. One research report that I found was 712 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 2: in California, they were billing insurance. So it really depends 713 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 2: on the agency and the agency's partnership with insurance companies. 714 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: Got it, And if somebody is not using insurance, what 715 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: might be the range of what they can expect to 716 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: pay out of pocket for a session. 717 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 2: I think that's very much in line with typical therapy 718 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 2: sessions for emany. We do have self pay, which is 719 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 2: you pay us, but your insurance company could write the check. 720 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 2: So it depends on if you can establish that relationship 721 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 2: with your insurance say hey, I'm gonna pay for this 722 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 2: and the insurances companies like, okay, we'll pay part of it. 723 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 2: You are covered in this sense, we just don't have 724 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 2: a partnership with that agency. So it really can depend 725 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 2: on the client's insurance company how much then clients insurance 726 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 2: company is willing to work with them, and the agency 727 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 2: that I's typically in line with typical psychotherapy sessions. 728 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: Got it. So let's say somebody's enjoying our conversation and 729 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: they're therapists and they're thinking, hey, I think I want 730 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: to be an equin therapist. What suggestions would you have 731 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: for them? And maybe reflections or things you wish you 732 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: would have known before you started. 733 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,359 Speaker 2: You got to learn how a horse works. I think 734 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 2: that was the strongest asset that I brought into working 735 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 2: as an equinisis a psychotherapist was I know how my 736 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 2: horse worked because I don't need the horse specialists to 737 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 2: check in with me and be like, here's how the 738 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 2: horse is reacting. I can pick up on that and 739 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 2: use that as a therapeutic tool. I'm like, Hey, whatever 740 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 2: you just said, this horse has reacting to it. Why 741 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 2: do you think that is? I don't need the horse 742 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 2: specialists to clue me in. Another big thing was being 743 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 2: willing to just meet your clients where you're at, because, 744 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 2: like I said, sometimes they'll sign up for equinus to 745 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 2: psychotherapy and then you come into the first session or 746 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 2: you do your and take it there like I am 747 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 2: terrified of horses and you're like, okay, we'll figure it out. 748 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,280 Speaker 2: So it really depends. And then for like the therapeutic 749 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 2: horseback riding aspect, because I know we touched on that 750 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 2: a little bit. Once again, it's very much being willing 751 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 2: to meet them where they're at and being willing to 752 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 2: work with anyone and just recognize that the horse is 753 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 2: an animal too. They will react in their own way. 754 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 2: So how do you communicate to a client why the 755 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 2: horse fighter reacted in a way to what they're saying 756 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 2: or doing and just being willing to have that bounce 757 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 2: back of here's what the horse is doing, here's what 758 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 2: the person's doing, and fostering that conversation of why things 759 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 2: are happening in the session the way they. 760 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 1: Are got it. So where can we stay connected with you? Jasmine? 761 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 1: Do you have a website and please share the website 762 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: for Ebny Horsewoman and any social media handles you'd like to. 763 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 2: Share so you can find me on LinkedIn Jazmine Morris. 764 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 2: Ebony Horsewomen can be found at Ebnyhorsewoman dot org. The 765 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 2: official agency name is Ebny Horsewoman Therapeutic Riding Center. Type 766 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 2: us into Google and you can read all about the 767 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 2: wonderful programs a any horsewoman has to offer. 768 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with us today, 769 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: Jazz and I really appreciate it. 770 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I could talk 771 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 2: for hours about horses analysis and therapy. I'm really glad 772 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 2: that it's getting the recognition that it deserves. And maybe 773 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 2: now that the conversation's happening about how important animals is 774 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 2: the therapy can be, we'll see a lot more progress 775 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 2: in the certifications or accessibility of these programs for people 776 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 2: who need it. 777 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 1: Let's hope. So thank you, so much, thank you. I'm 778 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: so glad Jasmine was able to join us for this episode. 779 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 1: To learn more about her and the work she's doing, 780 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com 781 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,959 Speaker 1: says session three seventy three, and don't forget to text 782 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: this episodes to two of your girls right now and 783 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: tell them to check it out. If you're looking for 784 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 1: a therapist in your area. Check out our therapist directory 785 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory and if 786 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 1: you want to continue digging into this topic or just 787 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: be in community with other sisters, come on over and 788 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,439 Speaker 1: join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner 789 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: of the Internet designed just for black women. You can 790 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. 791 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. 792 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,879 Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much 793 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to 794 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,919 Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good 795 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 1: care 796 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 2: What