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Speaker 1: On the Beck Dol Cast. The questions asked if movies

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Speaker 1: have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends

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Speaker 1: and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef

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Speaker 1: invest start changing it with the Beck Del Cast. Hello

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the Beck Dol Cast. My name is

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Speaker 1: Caitlin Jamie, and we are here to talk about movies

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Speaker 1: and how women are portrayed in movies per usual. As

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Speaker 1: per usual, we are inspired, were so inspired by the

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Speaker 1: Bechdel test, which requires that a movie has two women,

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Speaker 1: they have to have names, they have to have a conversation.

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Speaker 1: Their conversation has to be about something other than a man.

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Speaker 1: Does it ever happen? Almost never. We tried. We tried

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Speaker 1: to crunch the numbers of episodes we've done so far,

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Speaker 1: not too long ago, and we get too frustrated, and

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Speaker 1: especially because so many of them I couldn't even remember. Forthcoming. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we should shell out some hot stats. Love a love

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Speaker 1: a good chart, Give me a graph, give me the data,

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Speaker 1: give me the meta data. So this is about to

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Speaker 1: be an interesting episode. It's my fault because don't worry.

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Speaker 1: I'm not here to shame you. Don't shame yourself. I

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Speaker 1: am but why I was born. We were recording this

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Speaker 1: intro post the recording of the episode post certainly, so

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Speaker 1: we're recording this intro post recording of the episode because

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Speaker 1: we had a situation, yeah, where Jamie had to be

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Speaker 1: somewhere else that I have a bunch of pictures of

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Speaker 1: me dancing with a redheaded child, honestly evidence of how

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Speaker 1: I spent my time. So we had to record without you.

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Speaker 1: So the episode you were about to hear is just

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Speaker 1: a hero's journey, right. It's me Caitlin, and it's our guest.

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Speaker 1: But we still have things to say. You and I.

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Speaker 1: We have unfinished. We have unfinished. So yeah, Jamie and

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Speaker 1: I will check back in towards the end, but for now,

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Speaker 1: enjoy this episode with Caitlin. And she has a Comedy

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Speaker 1: Central half hour. She's been on Late Night with Seth Myers.

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Speaker 1: She was a writer for a broad City and currently

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Speaker 1: writes on Great News. Naomiic Paragan, Hi, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for being here. Yeah, so we're pretending right now

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Speaker 1: as though Jamie's here. She's not surprised. Why did you

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Speaker 1: go blow up the spot? Because I was like totally no,

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Speaker 1: But then people would notice because she is not chiming in.

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Speaker 1: People will be like, well, why isn't Jamie saying anything?

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Speaker 1: What if it was just like, oh, we tied her up,

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Speaker 1: but we wanted her to be here. Would we do

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Speaker 1: tie people up? It's only the men guests we have

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Speaker 1: on the show, because, of course, you know, we're here

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Speaker 1: to talk about women in movies. If a man dares

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Speaker 1: to enter our podcast, premises they can, but they have

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Speaker 1: to pay a price, and we do have to tie

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Speaker 1: them up. I do notice that your producer is a submissive,

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Speaker 1: so that does make a lot of sense, you know.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to Aristotle, the most wonderful man in the world.

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Speaker 1: He's so sweet and he's the greatest. He's sitting blushing

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Speaker 1: in the corner, shaking his head like a real power Battom,

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Speaker 1: there we go. Oh man, anyway, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for being here. We're here to talk about the movie

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Speaker 1: When Harry met Sally. Yes, so you said, this is

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Speaker 1: a movie you've seen dozens of times, a bunch of times,

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Speaker 1: so many own it on DVD, love it nice. When

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Speaker 1: did you first see it? I was probably in eighth

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Speaker 1: or ninth grade. I saw it, so, you know, like

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Speaker 1: I was like, I feel like I just found I

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Speaker 1: need to Franco. I was having a lot of feelings.

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Speaker 1: I was like a very naturally romantic child, you know,

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Speaker 1: really into all the bron Jay sisters and just like

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Speaker 1: longing as a concept. Emily, We've got Charlotte, Charlotte, We've

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Speaker 1: got Samantha, We've got carry a sorry wrong group of women.

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Speaker 1: We've got Raphael, We've got Michaelendelo. Oh no, that's not

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Speaker 1: even women or humans. Fuck anyway, So you saw it

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Speaker 1: early on, and you've seen it is one of your

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Speaker 1: favorite movies. It's definitely like a comfort movie, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think as I've gotten older, of course it is dated.

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Speaker 1: You know, it feels a little cheesy, but I really

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Speaker 1: love it. What I also love you know, I'm from

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Speaker 1: New York and it's a New York movie. You know,

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Speaker 1: the settings are really shoot New York really well, and

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Speaker 1: it's so pretty and stuff like that, you know, when

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Speaker 1: it kind of captures New York on all four seasons,

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Speaker 1: like the lovely Moan of Them in the Fall and

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Speaker 1: fucking Central Park and it's just like Foliage, Hello, the

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Speaker 1: Foliage alone, The Follige alone is worth rewinding. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: I think I saw this movie for the first time,

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Speaker 1: probably in college. I was a bit older when I

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Speaker 1: saw most of the movies I saw because surprised. I

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Speaker 1: went to film school, and then I went and got

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Speaker 1: a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University. Crag, I

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Speaker 1: love it. I almost want to get I was going

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Speaker 1: to do a PhD in film studies. I majored in

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Speaker 1: film in English and my thesis was a screenplay. But

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Speaker 1: then yeah, and then I was like, oh, maybe I'll

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Speaker 1: be like a professor or like, you know, like an academic,

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Speaker 1: you know, and really like race and fail and get

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Speaker 1: really gritty. And then like after a couple of years

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Speaker 1: of college, I was like, I don't want to go

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Speaker 1: back to homework. And there goes that life. Joe, Hey,

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Speaker 1: there's still time girl plays. I am too old to

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Speaker 1: be listening to anybody, true, I mean no, what did

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Speaker 1: I say? I just feel like I would just reach

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Speaker 1: the age like you want me to do? What I mean? Why? Exactly?

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Speaker 1: I have cats to feed. You know? What I mean

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Speaker 1: is you don't have to listen to anyone. You're not

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Speaker 1: too old to do anything, Thank you so much. That's wait,

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Speaker 1: do you have cats? I do have two cat children.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I just flew them here. Just oh

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Speaker 1: my god, you should come by. We just flew them

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Speaker 1: here from New York. It was the first time with

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Speaker 1: them in a plane. Who it was very stressful that

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Speaker 1: they made it through. I would like to remind everyone

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Speaker 1: that cats do have eight nipples and they can see ghosts,

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Speaker 1: as we learned from the movie Ghost. Do they have eight?

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Speaker 1: I mean, do boys have eight? I have male cats

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Speaker 1: and I'm never feeling you will never felt eight. Count

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Speaker 1: them there there. They might not be as prominent. They're not.

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Speaker 1: But are you maybe you only seeing pregnant cats? No?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not like investigating every cat. But if

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Speaker 1: you google how many nipples does a cat have? The

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Speaker 1: answers eight with both men and women cats, men and women,

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Speaker 1: men and women, game male and male cats, they all

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Speaker 1: have eight nips, even the boycats, even the males. Wow.

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Speaker 1: So this has been another episode of Facts, Cat Facts

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Speaker 1: with Caitlin. Anyway, So let's talk about the movie. So

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Speaker 1: you went to film schooling or you major film in English, right,

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Speaker 1: So you're a great guest to have on you know

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Speaker 1: all about all the stuff. Um, I'll go into my recap.

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Speaker 1: When Harry met Sally is the story of Harry and Sally.

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Speaker 1: They meet on a drive a road trip from Chicago

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Speaker 1: to New York when they're I think I've both graduated

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Speaker 1: college and they don't like each other. Their personalities just

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Speaker 1: like don't mesh very well. In their trip, they have

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Speaker 1: a discussion. Harry's like, men and women can't be friends

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Speaker 1: because the sex always gets in the way. Men are

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Speaker 1: always gonna want to fuck no woman, even if he

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Speaker 1: doesn't think she's hot, he's still gonna want to fucker.

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Speaker 1: And she's like, well that's pish posh, and well that's

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Speaker 1: pitch posh. Correct. They had that conversation and he kind

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Speaker 1: of He's like, well, you're attractive. She's like, you can't

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Speaker 1: come on to me. I'm uptight and I'm delicate and

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Speaker 1: I like to spend forty minutes ordering apple pie, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, what monster orders strawberry ice cream on

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Speaker 1: apple pie pie. I know she's disgusting, it's disgusting, truly awful,

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Speaker 1: truly awful. I'm with you on that. So he's like, oh, man,

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Speaker 1: you're you're kind of cute, and she's like, you're dating

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Speaker 1: my friend. You can't come on to me. And then

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Speaker 1: they had the whole discussion where men and women can't

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Speaker 1: be friends, and then they kind of part ways. Can

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Speaker 1: we fast forward? Fast forward five years? Five years they

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Speaker 1: meet again on an airplane. She's got a new guy.

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Speaker 1: He's like supposed to be eighties hot, but it's pretty basics,

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Speaker 1: like a very deep part and it's like the eighties

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Speaker 1: there are certain guys where was like, did you do

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Speaker 1: too much cocaine? Like you could be four to you

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Speaker 1: could be twenty two. And he's kind of in that world,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But he's supposed to be

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Speaker 1: the perfect guy. His name is Joe, Joe these one

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Speaker 1: syllable names. No thanks Joe anyway, So stands Caitlin coming

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Speaker 1: out here. So they reconnect on an airplane and they

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Speaker 1: have the conversation again ken men and women be friends

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Speaker 1: because at this point they're now in relationships both of them,

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Speaker 1: and maybe we can. And then I'm like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: And then they part ways again, and then flash forward

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Speaker 1: another five years. They meet up again. I'm blinking on where.

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Speaker 1: They meet at a bookstore. Yes, they're in the bookstore.

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Speaker 1: He's now going through a divorce. She's still with the

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Speaker 1: guy with the blond side prod. She has broken up

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Speaker 1: with him as well. They broke and broke up. Oh right,

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Speaker 1: because then they start okay, now, yes they Right now

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Speaker 1: they're both saying like, let's be friends. We both have

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Speaker 1: broken hearts that are both feeling bad for ourselves, so

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Speaker 1: let's be friends. Alongside all of this, you have Debbie Reynolds.

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Speaker 1: No that's not her name. Harry Fisher, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for that. I was literally thinking Carrie Fisher, and

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Speaker 1: then I was like, that's wrong. I love this movie

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Speaker 1: and you probably don't think so, based on the bed

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Speaker 1: that I can't remember anyone's names because all I all

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Speaker 1: I think of is like short hair girl, because it's

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Speaker 1: like for me, I don't know, I I think I'm

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Speaker 1: thirteen in my mind whenever I watched that movie, and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't carry Fisher. Her character's name is Marie. Marie

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Speaker 1: is like again, she's kind of like a runner along

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Speaker 1: the whole movie, Like she's thirsty. She's with this married

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Speaker 1: man that she cannot let go of. So Sally and

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Speaker 1: Marie are in the bookstore. They spot Harry and like,

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Speaker 1: I love the world in which Billy crystals like hot,

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Speaker 1: you know, so like I love Marie's Like, oh, who's

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Speaker 1: he like by the self help books and it's like, Crystal,

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Speaker 1: did you write this for yourself? But they reconnect in

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Speaker 1: the bookstore and then they are like, maybe it's time

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Speaker 1: that we can be friends. And they developed this close bond.

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Speaker 1: It's a very tender bond. I'm like, I'm obsessed with

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Speaker 1: their bond. It's a lot of just like long shots

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Speaker 1: of them walking through New York and he's basically telling

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Speaker 1: her to loosen up, and she's telling him to have

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Speaker 1: emotions and you're just like a Christmas tree, Christmas tree shop.

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Speaker 1: I love it, do you know? I know that tree shop?

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Speaker 1: And right next to it was a pet store. It

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Speaker 1: was like the plant shed and the pet shed. And

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Speaker 1: I would always go to the pet shed to pick

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Speaker 1: up gold feed or fish for my turtles. You've got

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Speaker 1: turtles back. This is back in my youth. It you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a real turtle head. I'm glad to hear it.

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Speaker 1: Turtles don't have any nipples. Agree. I agree with that

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Speaker 1: scientific fact. I'm like the fact that you just like

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Speaker 1: I was like, I have cats and she's like, they

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Speaker 1: have eight nipples, and I was like, what are you

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Speaker 1: talking about? I want you to go home tonight. And

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Speaker 1: count your male cat. Will not do it, will not

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Speaker 1: do it. I cannot feel like I've only felt too

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Speaker 1: and that's all I need to feel well. For listeners

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Speaker 1: out there at home who have cats, male or female,

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Speaker 1: please count the nipples at us. Nipples play a prominent

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Speaker 1: role in this podcast because we rate every movie on

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Speaker 1: our nipple scale. Nipples we towards the end, okay, so

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Speaker 1: get ready for that, but until then, we have a

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Speaker 1: lot more important cat nipples to talk about. Just kidding,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about when Harry met Sally. So I'm still

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Speaker 1: halfway through this right, okay. So then so they're like friends.

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Speaker 1: He there's a big moment when Sally finds out the

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Speaker 1: Joe blonde side part is engaged. Yes, now their whole relationship.

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Speaker 1: He was like, I don't want to be married. Lie.

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Speaker 1: He then called her to tell her. He's like, I

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Speaker 1: started seeing someone else and we're getting married. Sally can't

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Speaker 1: even okay, she cannot even, she cannot even. What I

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Speaker 1: love is that she like listen to or Ashley dream Home.

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Speaker 1: It's like all you know, like like flower prints, and

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Speaker 1: even though she's been sobbing, her hair is perfectly coiled

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Speaker 1: and she calls Harry, because you know, they have a

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Speaker 1: lot of phone calls late at night. They're very they're

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Speaker 1: always watching Casablanca. Is it the only thing on TV

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Speaker 1: late at night? And when you're lonely and cancelate, you

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Speaker 1: turn on Casablanca. So she calls him to come over.

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Speaker 1: Am My running is like, this is your something you're

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Speaker 1: supposed to do, Like I'm a guest when he took

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Speaker 1: over the podcast, but it's because I'm like, let us

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Speaker 1: gets in a part because we're about to hit the

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Speaker 1: turn turn. So he comes over because she's like, I'm

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Speaker 1: Zoza Jo's getting married, throwing around tissues everywhere all willie nilly.

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Speaker 1: She's throwing around tissues, she's hiccuping, she can't even she

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Speaker 1: can't take anything, like the most beautiful crier I've ever seen.

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Speaker 1: And then, in her sadness, her loneliness, she doesn't for

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Speaker 1: a kiss. She goes in for a kiss, and Harry's

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Speaker 1: male thirst he accepts this kiss and they have the

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Speaker 1: set I've heard of it, are you familiar? I hear

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Speaker 1: about it every now and then, but I don't like

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Speaker 1: to get into details. So they have it the next morning.

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Speaker 1: Now it's two people who've been friends at this point

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Speaker 1: where like who've known each other for fifteen years, who've

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Speaker 1: been friends for years, you naturally assume that once you

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Speaker 1: engage in the coit is, it's going to be like

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Speaker 1: on like Donkey Kong, like we're about to be a thing. Now,

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Speaker 1: I don't Harry miss Sally. The next day he fucking

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Speaker 1: ghosts her Ala swazy, and it's like, I gotta go.

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Speaker 1: You're familiar with the concept of ghosting from the movie Ghost,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you disappear and then come back and

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Speaker 1: stalk someone, right, And so he like kind of like

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Speaker 1: not blows her off, but he really he treats her

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Speaker 1: like he treats it like a random like very withholding

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Speaker 1: that's your homegirl, y'all was sitting and watched Cassa Blanc

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Speaker 1: over the phone together And now you guys feel like

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Speaker 1: you don't know nobody. Now as this all happens, Thirsty

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Speaker 1: Marie has finally left the Merry Guy and is now

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Speaker 1: in a relationship with Harry's best friend. And so of

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Speaker 1: course Harry and Sally can't get rid of each other

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Speaker 1: their best ends or a couple, you know, So they

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Speaker 1: go to into they like meet up later to game

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Speaker 1: night they're well seeing new people. They're trying to act

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Speaker 1: like they don't care about the new people, but they

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Speaker 1: totally do. And then it is New Year's Eve. That's

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Speaker 1: when it really comes because basically he's been trying to

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Speaker 1: call her. There's a one ful montage of him just

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Speaker 1: constantly loving messages that she's not picking up because she's

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Speaker 1: like girl bye. Finally they're at this fancy New Year's

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Speaker 1: Eve party. She's dolled up in like a perfect eighties

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Speaker 1: like Emerald Green with a giant bow, like her best life,

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Speaker 1: and he's at home alone. And then finally one of

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Speaker 1: the greatest running scenes of any movie, he runs through

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Speaker 1: the streets of New York to get to this New

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Speaker 1: Year's Eve party and he finds her. He's like, why

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Speaker 1: did you come here here? And he's like, because when

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Speaker 1: you know you want to spend the rest of your

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Speaker 1: life with someone, you want the rest of your life

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Speaker 1: to start as soon as boss one of the best.

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Speaker 1: And then Meg Ryan does the lip quiver that is

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Speaker 1: just really her claim to fame in the and she's like,

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Speaker 1: this is why you, Harry. I can't stay mad at you. Hello.

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Speaker 1: Cut to them being married, because the second best part

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Speaker 1: of this movie is that the interstitials of old couples.

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Speaker 1: There's like these standalone interstitials of old couples who have

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Speaker 1: been together, you know, for years, like probably one two

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Speaker 1: minute vignette of them just talking about like how they

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Speaker 1: met or when they got married, and they're all like

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Speaker 1: old and hilarious and my mostly white but mostly why.

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Speaker 1: But then my favorite is the Asian couple where the

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Speaker 1: where the Asian lady doesn't say a word, right, she

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Speaker 1: does not speak sound. I almost don't even know if

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Speaker 1: she's paying attention. And he's telling this story being like

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Speaker 1: she was beautifult so I decided to marry her, and

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Speaker 1: she's just like I'll co sign that. So that's like

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Speaker 1: my favorite. So the end you see that they're married,

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Speaker 1: and so it's like really really tender, and it's like

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Speaker 1: all I ever wanted when I was little. And like Sally,

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Speaker 1: I'm a very difficult orderer. Oh are you? I would

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Speaker 1: never put ice cream and apple pie. But like, here's

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Speaker 1: my thing about restaurants. I considered a menu to be

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Speaker 1: a jumping off point for negotiations. Okay, I'm looking at

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Speaker 1: that menu. That's basically you telling me what's in the kitchen.

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Speaker 1: Huh okay. So most of the time to see what

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Speaker 1: you got, and I'm like, let's see how we can

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Speaker 1: juge it up. Let's say we can make it my thing.

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Speaker 1: I just am very difficult. So like when you know,

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Speaker 1: and I wonder sometimes if I got that from Sally,

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Speaker 1: maybe I wonder if I got from Marins. You're like,

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Speaker 1: she can do it? Why can't I? Why can't I?

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Speaker 1: And it's funny because get away I do have my

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Speaker 1: my hairy you know, my juwbu he did he does say,

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Speaker 1: He's like, it's cute the way you order, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, I did it. I found someone to brainwash.

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Speaker 1: I thought this was acceptable. But the thing is, I'm

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Speaker 1: really nice about it, Caitlin. When the server comes like

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Speaker 1: a hey girl, I'm about to be a pain and

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Speaker 1: ass I try to set it up so they're not

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Speaker 1: so angry at me. That's very considerate you. I want

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Speaker 1: to point out that in the scene where we first

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Speaker 1: see her ordering, when she does the Devil's work and

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Speaker 1: orders strawberry ice cream on an apple pie. Towards the

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Speaker 1: end of that scene, she's like doing the math to

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Speaker 1: figure out the tip and you find out that she's

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Speaker 1: only tipping really, this makes my share six ninety or

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Speaker 1: something like that, And it's like, uh, what, you were

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Speaker 1: a pain in the fucking asshole. You need to tip

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Speaker 1: at least twenty standard. But because she's so annoying about it,

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Speaker 1: she should have gone the extra mile. But she totally

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Speaker 1: cheaped out on that pre waitress. Well, one of the

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Speaker 1: few people in the whole movie that's said in New York,

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Speaker 1: I guess one of those fun versions of New York

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Speaker 1: where there's I guess only white people live here, But

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who live in that

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Speaker 1: version of New York true, like in real life, you know,

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Speaker 1: Like I went to private school in the Upper East

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Speaker 1: Side and it was like unreal, Like, oh, the only

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Speaker 1: brown person you know is you're nanny. That's weird. But

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Speaker 1: it's doable if you, like, don't leave Park Avenue, you

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Speaker 1: can make it work good for you. I used to

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Speaker 1: live in Spanish Harlem and was one of only a

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Speaker 1: few white people my neighborhood. So were you proud of yourself?

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't go so far as well. You have come

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Speaker 1: from Boston, right, I didn't grow up there. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in rural western Pennsylvania, which is a very White

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Speaker 1: clan country, right, kind of like the grand Wizard of

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Speaker 1: the clan sector. I don't know how it works. I

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Speaker 1: am proud to not know. I am proud of that.

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Speaker 1: But he lived in the next town over cool, so cool, yep,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, hey, maybe I shouldn't live here anymore.

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Speaker 1: And I got the funk out as soon as I could. Yeah, yeah, Katagata.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so when Harry met Sally, Very White movie,

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Speaker 1: it's true. It's funny because again, looking back, I think

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Speaker 1: for me it was so eighties. It really exemplifies the

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Speaker 1: eighties to me, you know what I mean, between their

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Speaker 1: style and then like just that kind of romantic comedy

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Speaker 1: because really the way it's made, you know, it's I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this could be a play, do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Because it's really just a serious talking head series of conversations,

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Speaker 1: just a series of conversations against backdrops. And they do

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Speaker 1: well to like make New York like it does look

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Speaker 1: pretty at times, but so much of it is just

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Speaker 1: like Okay, now we're gonna go talk over here, now

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk in here. And it's really a movie

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Speaker 1: that relies on timing and like that, like witty banter

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Speaker 1: like I feel like you couldn't make that movie now,

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Speaker 1: but if you did it, we would not be in

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Speaker 1: many theaters at all, you know what I mean? You

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Speaker 1: know in movies how you need so many set pieces

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Speaker 1: and big dance sequence at the end, I'll train wreckord

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. But um, I'm going to take this

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Speaker 1: opportunity now to say that I don't think I like

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Speaker 1: this movie very much. It is annoying to me. How

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Speaker 1: sure it's about like interpersonal relationships and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: I find it kind of boring. I think for rom

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Speaker 1: com there's not that much column comedy in it. And

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Speaker 1: you know, Billy Crystal, I suppose, is a charming slash

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Speaker 1: annoying character, and you know there's always charming annoying. But

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Speaker 1: she I don't find her an inherently funny person, right.

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Speaker 1: She might have funny lines that she tries to deliver

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Speaker 1: in a funny way. That's the problem. I won't get

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Speaker 1: into it how they should cast female comics in comedy

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Speaker 1: movies and not actresses who don't know how to But

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Speaker 1: that's only you actually want the woman to be funny.

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Speaker 1: Mag RAN's character is pretty much like a shrew or

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Speaker 1: she's like this uptight, frigid woman, right, Like she's not

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Speaker 1: really funny the whole idea or not whole idea, but

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Speaker 1: it feels like what happens is Billy Crystals supposed to

390
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Speaker 1: loosen her up, right, Like he gets to be the

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Speaker 1: funny one, and she's like, but that's such an annoying

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Speaker 1: trope that keeps happening in rom comes, Like why can't

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Speaker 1: a woman be one of the funny people in the movie.

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Speaker 1: It's so that's what bothers me about a lot of

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Speaker 1: wrong coms where it's like this uptight woman and she

396
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Speaker 1: has to be kind of broken down by this guy

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Speaker 1: who comes in and I'd rather And I think this

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Speaker 1: is a symptom of one of the things we talked

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Speaker 1: about on this podcast, where women are just often pigeonholed

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Speaker 1: into these like specific roles or troops or archetypes where

401
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Speaker 1: they're like, I'm not this type of person. So I

402
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Speaker 1: really like in a movie where a woman character is

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Speaker 1: funny and like has funny lines to say and makes

404
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Speaker 1: me laugh, because you don't see that that often. Yeah, no, definitely,

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Speaker 1: but sorry to go on a rant, No that was

406
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Speaker 1: not right. You keep you know, no it's not a

407
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: rant if you talk for more than thirty seconds. It's

408
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: a rant if you yell for more than five minutes.

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Speaker 1: Should you see the difference? I see. I think ranting

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Speaker 1: really requires a level of yelling and intensity. I can

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Speaker 1: all yell because I feel like we say we're ranting

412
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Speaker 1: like to apologize for having an opinion that we want

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Speaker 1: to explain. Now, you're fine, I get it. I have

414
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Speaker 1: a problem with manic pixie dream girls. I can't take

415
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Speaker 1: a white girl with a bang running around like I

416
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Speaker 1: can't and especially like it can only be like white

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Speaker 1: women who get to have whimsy in general. And then

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Speaker 1: also just the idea of that woman who's just like

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Speaker 1: I am so free coming to my world and it's like, bitch,

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Speaker 1: how do you pay bills? You know what I'm saying,

421
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: and like, and that's one of the I I feel like

422
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: that's a newer one. That's like I feel like it's

423
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: of the two thousands. Yes, if you think about like

424
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 1: a lot of nineties route, he tended to be a

425
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: woman who was more like tough or it was like

426
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: ten things I hate about you know, it's a tough

427
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: girl and like and then some guy comes along and

428
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 1: teaches her to let love in, you know, and then

429
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 1: it became an uptight guy and then like a whimsical

430
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: girl who like sleeps on angels wing right. Yes, I

431
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: find that troupe very annoying. Would you like some we're

432
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 1: examining the wine that I brought. Let me point out

433
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,959
Speaker 1: that it is in a plastic bottle. Yep, I am

434
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 1: drinking crane like chardon Ay. Except it's not crane like

435
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 1: chardon Ay. This is Trader Joe's Tubuck Chuck that I

436
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: put inside the classic bottle that I saved because it's

437
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: a great amount for a podcast Get drunk? Oh man,

438
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: what were we talking about? Let's yeah. So I don't

439
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: think it's terrible. I'd like that a woman wrote it.

440
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: Nor Efron, she's always having a good time. But I

441
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: think the problem with this movie for me is that

442
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: it's for starters, very heteronormative to the point where like,

443
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: which of course most romcoms are, but this movie is

444
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: heteronormative to the point where it's like, men and women

445
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: can't be friends because I've never heard of a gay person,

446
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: and there's no such thing as relationships between a gay

447
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 1: man and a straight woman or vice versa, like discounting

448
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: that relationship dynamic entirely. Also just the idea that even

449
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: two hetero people, a hetero guy and girl, can't be friends,

450
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: because this movie is sort of at least popularized the

451
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: idea that men and women can't have a platonic relationship

452
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: because they're just gonna want to funk each other, which

453
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I'm being naive, but also I

454
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: have no a bunch of platonic It's just like a

455
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: very and maybe it was like, well it is a

456
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: thing of nine when this movie came out, But I just,

457
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: I mean, it is very dated, and I think, I

458
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 1: mean definitely you know, dated conservative. I think it was

459
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: of its time in that sense of like what can

460
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: you think of any mainstream movie that didn't take like

461
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: a really basic hard ciss that ere not mainstream? No,

462
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: you know exactly. I feel like, well, this is gonna

463
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: get made. And again I'm like, did it start as

464
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: a play down in the West village? You know? I

465
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: mean it's also it's also a movie to me where

466
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: the audience is the characters the audience are white people,

467
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: and they're like thirties or forties who are upwardly mobile,

468
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: liberal issue, you know what I mean, Like it is

469
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: with that tribe and yet like I've like when I

470
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: was like thirteen or four team, when I couldn't be

471
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 1: friends with boys like any guy I was like near,

472
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I want, I want you to

473
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: be my boyfriend like that. It made sense to me

474
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: at the time, definitely, do you know what I mean,

475
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: Because it was like I just crushes all the time.

476
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: I was so thirsty and this is like a movie

477
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: about thirst, you know, And it really spoke to me

478
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: as a team. That's funny because I watched it recently

479
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: with my fiance who had never seen it, and we

480
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: watched it and I was just like, god, a lot

481
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: of it. I was just like, it is so cheesy,

482
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: but it takes me back to this time in my

483
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: life where like it was the most romantic, cutest, sweetest thing,

484
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's one of the quintessential

485
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: rom coms to this day. It's got some witty, it's

486
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 1: got some pithy banter. Like they do have a good

487
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: rhythm because again, it is a stage play, so like

488
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: the only way it's gonna work is if they kind

489
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: of have a little something going. And I think they

490
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: do to keep you going. There's a moment you know,

491
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: it's like, but it's very I did find when I

492
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: was watching it this last time it did feel like

493
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: it didn't nothing happen, Like, okay, so what are they

494
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: going to get together? So when is it gonna happen?

495
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 1: And maybe it's just because we live in two thousand

496
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: seventeen right now as we are recording this, I know

497
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: listeners are going to keep going back to this right now.

498
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: It might be two thousand, might be twenty one sixty

499
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: eight right now, and this podcast has stood the test

500
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: of time. It's survived the singularity certainly. Right, So, all

501
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: of you machine slash robots who have human consciousness uploaded

502
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: into your micro chip in your all of you guys

503
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,479
Speaker 1: listening out there, things were a bit different in nineteen

504
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: eighty nine, right right right. There were genders, they weren't fluid,

505
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: There was no spectrum. Everything was very binary, very binary.

506
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: So yeah, like we mentioned, this movie is not necessarily aging, well,

507
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: but I think it's also I think it's also for

508
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 1: me to I think it's the New York with me, right,

509
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 1: Like those cute little like pretty shots and what were like,

510
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: I know that place I know that place, you know

511
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like, Oh, I can't wait till I'm

512
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 1: in adult New York and I'm working around with my

513
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: boyfriend and then we're doing Edish and dad the other

514
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: you know, and then I have had a Jewish man

515
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: who won't bring a Christmas tree into our house so

516
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: that you dreamed. Let's talk about the fake orgasm scene,

517
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 1: the famous fake orgasm. Yeah, maybe it's because Meg Ryan

518
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: isn't particularly sexualized that much throughout this movie, which is

519
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: a thing that I like about it. You know, a

520
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: lot of movies are like, oh, we have a woman

521
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: character in this better put her in a middrift top

522
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: and make sure she's got giant tits and have her

523
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: not say anything. Um So, at least they didn't do

524
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: that to our little Meg Ryan. But for her to

525
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: like fake an orgasm in a diner in like a

526
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: pretty non sexy way, like she's just like I feel

527
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: like she has there's something like weird guttural like yes,

528
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: well it's so funny to me. Well to me? What

529
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: also made no sense that her character would do that

530
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: total uptight woman like her, who like I'm like, suddenly

531
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: you're making orgasm sounds in public. That's the type of

532
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: thing a manic pixie dream girl would do, but not

533
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: like uptight, no, not her, no, Sally alright, wuld never Yeah.

534
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: So I was kind of like, what are you doing?

535
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: What's become of you? And then the way she just

536
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: goes back to eating all smug, I'll have it cheese

537
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: having And wasn't that Rob Browner's mom? Oh was it?

538
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: And it's like the most famous line in the movie,

539
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: Like apparently overseas it was the most popular thing to

540
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: ever happen. So okay, so we have a few female

541
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: characters to talk about. By the way, Jamie's still not here.

542
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: We've been talking for a good how long has it

543
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: been Aristotle forty minutes. Jamie, for some reason double book

544
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: a thing where I think she's it's not a photo shoot,

545
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: but she needs to have photos taken of her. I'm

546
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: not sure she's helping out a friend. Great for her.

547
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: I'm having a great time with you so far. In fact,

548
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: if Jamie comes in, I'm going to be like, you

549
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,479
Speaker 1: know what, stay out, stay out. You missed it. We

550
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: don't need Jamie, although I missed you feel like you

551
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: need Jamie? Do you feel like because she's really protesting

552
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: too much. You know, she's really saying how she doesn't

553
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: need Jamie, which leads me to believe she needs ja Hey,

554
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: there's some subtext there maybe, But so we've got Marie,

555
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: which is Carrie Fisher, not mother. What did you do?

556
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: The Internet is going to rip me apart. No, it's okay.

557
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: So in terms of like the portrayal of the women

558
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: characters in this movie, they're only ever. I mean, we'll

559
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: get into this later about whether or not the movie

560
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: passes the Bechtel test, but there are a number of

561
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: women characters, and they do talk to each other. That's great,

562
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: But the whole thing, and this is a out this

563
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: what this movie is about. It's about romance. It's about

564
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: hetero romantic relationships, specifically between Harry and Sally. So it

565
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: makes sense that they would be talking like if women

566
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: are talking, that they'd be talking about men, but only

567
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: but right, and even when Sally and like her friend

568
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: Marie or her friend Alice are talking every every single thing,

569
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: it's just frustrating to have a portrayal of women where

570
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: basically the only thing that's important to them, at least

571
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: as far as we can tell, is their relationship to men,

572
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: like what does Sally do for to live? Exactly? Like

573
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: we see her in what looks? At one point, I'm like,

574
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: are you a stewardess? She hasn't like this outfit with

575
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: like a like an ask and an ascot and not

576
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: a time scarf. I was like, are you a stewardess?

577
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: Is like no, like you're some a business lady. She's

578
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: a very nice apartments like what do you do? Right? Okay,

579
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: so she is a journalist. She says she is a journalists,

580
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: but we don't We don't know what kind what sort

581
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: of things she covers. She did in the opening scene,

582
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: she's like, I'm gonna go be a journy journalist. And

583
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: then when they meet again on the plane, he's like,

584
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: did you oh, you're going to be a gymnast and

585
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: she said she's like a journalists and he's like, yeah,

586
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: that's what I said, which is I guess a funny joke,

587
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: but no, it's not sorry nor ever. But she, I guess,

588
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: had a goal and set out to do it and

589
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 1: did it. But then we don't know anything about her job. Granted,

590
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: we don't know anything about the other guy, Like Harry

591
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: is a political analyst or consultant or something like. I

592
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: would have loved to just see anyone at their job. Right.

593
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: We have Marie and Jess talk about writing, right like

594
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: he gets like we talked about his work, and then

595
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: of course that she loves his work. But talk you know,

596
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: But then what else is anyone ever doing? Are you

597
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: pursuing anything with your time? Right? It's all about getting

598
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: that d'e about thirst? Yeah, totally. That scene where they're

599
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: on like the double date, when they're trying to set

600
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: each other up with Sally trying to set up Harry

601
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: with Marie and Harry is trying to set up Sally

602
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: with Jess. But Marie and Jess have it. They've got

603
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: the same haircut, they can share all sorts of product.

604
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: It makes sense they do have and Jamie isn't here

605
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: to corroborate this. But Jamie loftist has the loftiest test

606
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: or the loftest rule where the baldest woman is in charge.

607
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: Carrie Fisher in this movie is thea She has the

608
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: shortest hair, but I wouldn't say she's in charge. So

609
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: this movie does not pass the loftest test. But that

610
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: scene drives me crazy, where she's like, first of all,

611
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: she says a quote that makes no sense at least

612
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: to me, where she's like, restaurants are in the eighties,

613
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: what to what theater is in the sixties or something right,

614
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: And I'm like, what do you mean by that? She's like,

615
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: I read that in at least have her be like,

616
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: that's a thing that I thought on my own. And

617
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: then if they have parallel thinking, then it's not so

618
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: much of like a jerk off moment for him. And

619
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: he's like, I wrote that and you liked what. I've

620
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: never had someone quote back to me article before, oh love,

621
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: So just a moment like that where like it could

622
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: be more like they just have the same opinion about something,

623
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 1: where it's actually her regurgitating and he's just like, well,

624
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: I'm coming. It's so annoying that like that dynamic isn't

625
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: more equal where they just like, oh, I'm a woman

626
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: with my own thoughts and here's the thing that I think,

627
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: and I'm a man with my own thoughts and we

628
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: happen to agree on this. It's just annoying to me.

629
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: And then it's just like, what does Marie do? We

630
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: have no fucking idea. What does Alice do? No clue.

631
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: This is what I'm talking about. What they do is

632
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 1: thirst for men. They sit around out. My favorite Marie

633
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: has a Rollo deck, which I was like, again, it's

634
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: like so eighties, like the fact that there was even

635
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: a physical rolodex. And then when it was like he's married,

636
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: she like takes the name and just folds the corner down,

637
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: like married, he's not gone from the rolodex. She believes

638
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: he will be a viable option later because she's all

639
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,439
Speaker 1: into married men. Yeah, she's just like I gotta she probably, Yeah,

640
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: she's got that system, fold the corner down. This one

641
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: will just be a little harder HERX just carrying a

642
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: rollods into your purse with just all your information. I

643
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: just thought that was so funny. It was again of

644
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: a time when that was what you did. She could

645
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: have just had a date book, No, she had a

646
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: physical giants that she is so funny because it lasts

647
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 1: probably five minutes and they literally only talk about four

648
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: or five different men right in the scene. But kind

649
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: of harkening back to the conversation about what are these

650
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: people do for a living? Specifically, it just would have

651
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: been nice to have them. I mean, sure, the movie

652
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: is about their relationship, but throwing a fucking few subplots

653
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: about anything a career aspiration she has, or a relationship

654
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 1: with her mom or something like that, just something where

655
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: it's just not all about thirsty people trying to fuck.

656
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: I want to see her or them be good at something.

657
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: That's That's the other thing too, because it feels like

658
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: she is like an uptight woman. They only pretty much,

659
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: I don't know, they're very interior and it's kind of like,

660
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: do you do anything for anybody else? Do you have

661
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: any interest? Are you good at anything? Because to me,

662
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: she is so type A that I need to see

663
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: where that helps her anywhere? Do you know what I mean?

664
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: Because I'm like, you're just like this is not serving

665
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: you in life, and then you somehow then just like

666
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: do a fake orgasm and a diner. So what right,

667
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 1: Like is she an investigative journalists where she has to

668
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: like go and really sort of be like, yeah, that

669
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: would make sense for her character and then also like

670
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: show a different side of her, show a little dimension

671
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: for her. But we really only see these pretty one

672
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: dimensional characters. To be fair, both the men and the

673
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: women are presented is pretty yeah, So that's just sort

674
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: of a problem with your writing in general. Again, sorry

675
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: Nora Efron, But am I gonna write it script with

676
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: my master's degree in screenwriting that shows people with a

677
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: little more dimension? Yes, yes, I am excellent. I just

678
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: have to get the motivation to do that. It's hard.

679
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: If you can save a crane Lake bottle and refill

680
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,959
Speaker 1: it with three buck chuck for later, you can sit

681
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: down and write in this screen like you're a motivated woman.

682
00:37:55,160 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: Thank you. I really needed that, pep talk. Do you

683
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: have any final thoughts about the movie, how it portrays women,

684
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: anything at all? You know, as you said, though, you know,

685
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: everyone is pretty much like two dimensional. They really are archetypes.

686
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: For me is like comfort is the wrong word. But

687
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: it's like one of those things you can always have

688
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: on the background, you know what I mean, Like movies

689
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: or TV shows where you're like, oh, yeah, that's happening,

690
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: and then you just turn around, you're like, oh, foliage

691
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: and they were like fun chunky sweaters and then you're done,

692
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: you know. And those little interstitials with the couples are

693
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: like my favorite thing. Someone told me recently that they're

694
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: not real. They were actors, and I thought they were

695
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: real couples that they interviewed, and like, if that's true

696
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: that their actors, like the movies did to me so

697
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: listeners they were actors. See, I assumed that she, like,

698
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: you know, put out an give me old couples with

699
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: fun stories. Well like none of them. Half of the couples,

700
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: Like again, the woman's not talking or like they're not

701
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: looking at people, Like they look so regular that I

702
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: just could just be because there were eighty years old,

703
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: and like if they at one point were hot, they're

704
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: now eighty. No, but I'm just slight anyway. If they're actors,

705
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: then I think that I mean, I think their stories,

706
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: their scenes were a little too rehearsed and tidy to

707
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: have been real people actually recounting real stories. Maybe the

708
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: stories were real, maybe like you just roll it a

709
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: few times and you edit. I mean, because Laura knows

710
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: an old person knows how to repeat themselves. You know

711
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. They don't tell a story from like

712
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: fifty years ago, sure the same way every time and

713
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: tell it to you like you've never heard it before. Yeah,

714
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: that is true. Not to say that all old people

715
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: have hashtag people. It's not about Demendra. I'm just look,

716
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you can't say a word. You can't

717
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: say a word anymore less dementia, more dimension. How about

718
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: that Hollywood that makes no sense? I loved it. I

719
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: loved it. It was great. You know, it's like restaurants

720
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: are the people in the eighties with eater exactly. I

721
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: know exactly what you mean when you say that. So

722
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: we've checked in with Jamie. Doesn't appear as though she

723
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: will make it in time to do the things we

724
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: do on this episode, which is to determine whether or

725
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: not it passes the Bechdel test. Rate the movie, So well,

726
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: do those things without her. So let's talk about whether

727
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: or not the movie passes the Bechdel test. We've already

728
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: sort of hinted at a number of scenes where women

729
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: are talking. I have detailed every single one. I went

730
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: through and made notes about every scene where a woman

731
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: talks to another woman. So I'm just gonna kind of

732
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: go through each one and we'll be like, Hey, does

733
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: this pass or no. So it happens right away when

734
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: uh Sally talks to her friend, who we later learned

735
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: is named Amanda. She's like the college friend whenever they

736
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 1: were about to embark on their road trip. She's making

737
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 1: out with Harry. Sally sitting in the car and she's

738
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 1: just like and then Amanda goes, oh, hi, Sally, Sally,

739
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: this is Harry Burns Harry, this is Sally. All right.

740
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: That does not pass. The test's introducing a man, introducing

741
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: a man, and Sally doesn't really respond to that or

742
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: say anything. That's not a conversation. That one does not pass.

743
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 1: Then the next scene is they're like on the road trip,

744
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: they stop at a diner. This is when Sally orders

745
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:29,879
Speaker 1: disgusting bullshit strawberry ice cream on her again, vomiting, I'm

746
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: frothing at the mouth in disgust. But you know she's

747
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: being a chef salad and ambled pie on the monin

748
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: I'm in privileged piggy betchles everything my way. So she's

749
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: talking to the waitress ordering this, but that waitress does

750
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: not have a name, and she just says, okay, yeah,

751
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: he's just like they're talking about food. So if we

752
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: knew the waitress's name, because they have an exchange, but

753
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: because we don't the waitress's name, and that's one of

754
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: the caveats of the version of the backtel test that

755
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: we adhere to on the Bechtel cast. I say, it

756
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 1: does not pass, right. So next one, the airplane scene,

757
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: Sally is ordering again from a flight attendant and she's like,

758
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 1: bloody Mary mix, do you have it? Just kidding? I

759
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: barely want any of it. I went mostly tomato, like

760
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: a raw tomato, muddled with a slash of soda. Get

761
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: a mortar and pistol and crash up the tomato and

762
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: then put some vodka in it. And that's the bloody

763
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: Mary I want. So that obviously does not pass because

764
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: we don't know the flight attendant's name, even though there's

765
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: a tiny little bit of an interaction there. Next scene,

766
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 1: the hilarious scene where they're at lunched Sally, Marie and Alice,

767
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: And that's the one we already talked about where they

768
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: talked about like six different men, literally nothing else. They

769
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: don't talk about a single other. There's no other conversation topics.

770
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: But Joe, the guy that Marie is trying to funk

771
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: even though he's married. Alice says, some ship, it's about men,

772
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: and then Marie pulls on her roll index for more men,

773
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 1: for more men, So obviously does not pass. At least

774
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: we know those characters names, I guess. And then the

775
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 1: next scene is Sally Marie in the bookstore when Harry

776
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: comes into her life again. Marie's like, my married boyfriend

777
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: just but a nighty again talking about him, and then

778
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: they talk about Harry and then Marie immediately runs out

779
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: of the scene. Than the scene where they're on the

780
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: double date. Even before that, Marie's talking about the dude

781
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,720
Speaker 1: who won't leave his wife, talking about a man. Then

782
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: on the date they don't even talk to each other,

783
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: and after the day they talk about whether or not

784
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: to go home with the men. Yeah, Maria, do you

785
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,399
Speaker 1: mind if I do? Kind of like that scene because

786
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: they're both like Harry and Sally are both like are

787
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: He's in a fragile place and Sally is sad about

788
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: her breakup and so maybe you don't reject them right now.

789
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: And then Jess is like, I'm gonna get a cab

790
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: and She's like, I'm coming with you. So that's funny

791
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: that one attempted a joke. I like, Caitly will allow it,

792
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: will allow it. I permit it. That we've got the

793
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,919
Speaker 1: wagon wheel table scene, Marie asks Sally if she likes

794
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 1: the table. Sally does not respond she shakes her head,

795
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: so there's no verbal communication there. So far we're at

796
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: none of these scenes passed the test. Let's there's a

797
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: few more fingers crossed. Let's see there's the party where

798
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: they play pictionary. Sally's apparently not good at anything, because

799
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: she sucks at drawing. Someone says, we don't know who

800
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 1: it is, but someone's like, where's the bathroom? And Marie says,

801
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: down the hall. I love these recreets. But we don't

802
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: know who says that because we don't even and see

803
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: her speak on screen. And then afterwards, Sally and Marie

804
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: are talking about Harry's date, which, okay, right, it's not

805
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: about a man. It's not about a man, but it's

806
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 1: about the man's new girlfriend. So I'm not really sure

807
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: how to handle this because she's like Emily, she's young,

808
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: she makes desserts. She's Emily that Emily's famous for her

809
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,399
Speaker 1: dessert so you know what she does for a living,

810
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: and she's successful. I didn't say anything, right, so I'm

811
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: not really sure this one might be a pass because

812
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 1: they talk about a woman. But again, if you really

813
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 1: dig deeper, they're only talking about her because they're talking

814
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 1: about what Harry's up to and who he's dating, so

815
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: it's still sort of about him, So that one's a

816
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: shrug hard to say. Let's go back to it, because

817
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: this happens a few more times where Sally is at

818
00:45:55,560 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: Marie's wedding dress fitting hideous, adis dress so bad? And

819
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: they're talking about Harry, and then they're talking about another

820
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: of Harry's new girlfriends, and then Marie says, oh, she's thin,

821
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: pretty big tits basic nightmare, which, okay, why do you

822
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: have to shame her for how she looks? For no reason?

823
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: Why do we need to talk about women that way?

824
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: We don't. I'm yelling now, it's a rant. And then

825
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: they talk about her dress and she's like do you

826
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: think and she's like, oh, Marie, she's so beautiful. She

827
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: cries and it's literally one of the ugly and she's like,

828
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 1: tell the truth, it's just beautiful. So I guess we'll

829
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: give that one a pass, although we're talking about the

830
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: dress that she's going to get married to a man

831
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: in Okay, Well, I don't know about all this, but

832
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say that it seems like why they don't

833
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: pass though, for both the like girlfriend Emily thing in

834
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: the dress, thing that they're those are just moments in

835
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: a larger conversation, Like so they're never having one single

836
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 1: scene that does not include the guy is subject. Yep,

837
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 1: that's a good point. There's a few after this. At

838
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: Marie's wedding, Sally and Alice are talking and they're talking

839
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 1: about Marie. I've never seen her so happy. Oh yeah,

840
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: she's so happy. It's great. And then well, what are

841
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: you going to do about you? And that's a conversation,

842
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: and then a guy immediately comes and pulls Alice away,

843
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: like let's dance. So I suppose again because they're talking

844
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 1: about Marie and no men are mentioned in that comment,

845
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: a man does swoop in and literally drag Alice away.

846
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: Alice's husband one sort of dance says that one's also

847
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,479
Speaker 1: a pass question mark. Then there at the New Year's

848
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: Eve party, Sally says to Marie, I'm going home, and

849
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: Marie says, you'll never get a taxi, And then she

850
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: turns back her conversation she's having with a dude and

851
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: keeps fake laughing at his stupid joke. Take a scheduling class,

852
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 1: Learn how to tell a fucking joke. Dude. And then

853
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,399
Speaker 1: later on Sally's like, I'm going to go and where

854
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: He's like, but it's almost midnight, and she's like, but

855
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: the thought of not kissing someone is just that to me,

856
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: does not pass because she's like, I'm leaving because there's

857
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: no one for me to kiss, there's no man for

858
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: me to kiss. Here a failure. So of these what

859
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: did I say, eight or more conversations throughout the movie

860
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: between women, only like one of them is one or

861
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: two of them is just like a sort of maybe

862
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: kind of question mark. It's upsetting that they couldn't have

863
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: done a better job with this or made it more

864
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: as it was written by a woman, right, So I

865
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: think that's the other issue. Although who knows how many

866
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 1: writers out there are writing movies with the Bechdel test

867
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: in mind? Well, in ninety eight nine, probably no one,

868
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: because this was barely a thing back then. It's not surprising.

869
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: It's just frustrating that there were so there were a

870
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: bunch of conversations between women, but because they almost exclusively

871
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,720
Speaker 1: talk about men, or if their conversation is about a woman,

872
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: it's in the context of right, So I'm gonna give

873
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: it a like a barely pass. I'm gonna say no,

874
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 1: but okayon, let's go with no, let's do it. This

875
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: movie does not pass the Bechdel test the end. You

876
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: heard it here first. I think we've made a good

877
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: case for it not passing. So I think you really

878
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: broke it down. Thank you. So let's rate the movie

879
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: on our nipple scale. All right, we rate the movie

880
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: on a scale of zero to five nipples. They are

881
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: generally human nipples, but if you want them to be

882
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: cat nipples, that's okay, to the right. We rate it

883
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 1: based on the portrayal of men. I'm gonna give it

884
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: a one. Yeah, Yeah, I mean I get it, I

885
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: get it. I think I'm gonna have to agree with

886
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: you for going back a portrayal. Yeah one, because and again,

887
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: like this is what this movie is about. But also,

888
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: there are plenty of rom coms out there where the

889
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: pursuit of a romantic interest or a romantic relationship is

890
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: the main plot. But there's still other things. There's other

891
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 1: things a steak, there's subplots where the character has a

892
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: career thing, a career goal, or a friendship where they

893
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 1: don't just talk about the man like it's just because

894
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: every single moment in this movie is sort of framed

895
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: in how a woman is gonna try to suck a

896
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: man and a man's gonna try to suck a woman

897
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: and can they be friends? And no, because that's not

898
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: the thing according to this movie. Even though I could

899
00:50:55,719 --> 00:51:00,240
Speaker 1: name twenty men who my friends with who I don't

900
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: want to have sex with, and I don't know whether

901
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: or not they want to have sex with me, but

902
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: probably not. I'm a wretched person, okay, lind but I

903
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: think that this movie made up a rule that is

904
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 1: horseshit and it's problematic. But anyway, do you have any

905
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: final thoughts about the movie? Anything you wanna say? I mean, no,

906
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: it's definitely like ruined, like a great part of my

907
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: childhood for me, So I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

908
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: Um really sobering, you know, but it is. It's just

909
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: really great to know this there's someone else who's also

910
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: disgusted by a strawberr ice cream and apple pie, So

911
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: thank you for that. I cannot get over it. But Naomi,

912
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Where

913
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 1: can people follow you online? Holler at me on Twitter

914
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: at black dress? Hell yeah, thanks for taking the time

915
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 1: to be here. It was such a treasure to talk

916
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 1: to you about When Harry met Sally. Our whole conversation

917
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: pretty much past the actal test here today. So for us,

918
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: you're talking about a movie we did. All right, thank you,

919
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: Bye the Bedel Cast. It's me Caitlin and Jamie. I'm

920
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 1: just poking my head in, poking head and poking my

921
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: head and saying, hey, wait a second, I was dancing

922
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:20,800
Speaker 1: with a kid when I should have been doing the podcast.

923
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,280
Speaker 1: It's okay, I forgive you entirely. We've got busy lives.

924
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: So we talked about when Harry met Sally, but you

925
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: and I have not talked about it, So let's do

926
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: that now, Okay. So I first saw When Harry Met

927
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 1: Sally a year and a half ago, pretty recent, pretty recent,

928
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: And it was at the insistence of a guy I

929
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: was dating who insisted it was just my kind of movie.

930
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: Turned out it wasn't, and he was not the kind

931
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: of person I wanted to be spending my time with.

932
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: So a lot of hard lessons learned in this journey

933
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: we call life. But I hadn't seen it, but I

934
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 1: did when I saw it, already know a lot about

935
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: and really loved Nora Ephron, so I'd be like a

936
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 1: tricky I know, I'm inclined to want to give this

937
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: movie more breaks than it deserves because I love her

938
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah. Well, I spend a few different moments

939
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 1: of the episode saying something mean about her writing, and

940
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:21,760
Speaker 1: then that's I mean, you're apologizing to her. Hey, speaking

941
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 1: of goes, that was a fun one. Yeah, we actually

942
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 1: mentioned it a bit on this episode. Hell yeah, So

943
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 1: go back and listen. Okay, well, do what were your

944
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: thoughts about the portrayal of women and Harry met Sally? Okay, I, hey, Harry,

945
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: Harry is the worst. I love Billy Crystal by Harry

946
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: and um Sally. I feel like, I don't think that

947
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: she's a bad character, but I think she's fucked over

948
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: in every conceivable way by the plot and by all

949
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 1: the powers that be in the movie. Um, she's fucked

950
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,399
Speaker 1: over in every single way, and half of the time

951
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: it's made out to look like they're doing her a

952
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 1: favor when they're actually sucking her up. Can you give

953
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 1: it an example? Well, like, okay, so one of the

954
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: examples is like they set the precedent right at the

955
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: top with the documentary like old couples talking and women

956
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,280
Speaker 1: don't even talk in half of those. It's very passive.

957
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 1: And so we're set up at the top of like

958
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: this is true love. So whoever the female counterpart is

959
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 1: in this movie is going to be, you know, forced

960
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: into that thing that they set up at the top.

961
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,839
Speaker 1: It's weird because it's like, Sally has a life, she

962
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,879
Speaker 1: has a job, she writes for like New York magazine. Right, well,

963
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:43,760
Speaker 1: we don't know. That's one of the things we talked about.

964
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: We hardly know anything about her life outside of her

965
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: relationship with Harry, right right, right, And it's I do

966
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 1: I she's a professional writer of she's a journalist, but

967
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: that's pretty much all we know, right, And then there's

968
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 1: the what's the guy who's not Harry, who's also a

969
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: ournalist who yes, who never shuts the funk up about

970
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: his job, and so we know all about his journalism,

971
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 1: and it's like, but we can't know, like what is

972
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 1: Sally working on kind of journalist issue? What's her beat?

973
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: Like we don't know, you know, and she's made out

974
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: to be like a bitchy professional, but we barely know

975
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: what she does. So that pisces me off. Even though

976
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: it's like I trust that the character is doing the

977
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: job and is self sufficient, but it's just like the

978
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 1: story does not seem to care to let us into

979
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: anything outside of Harry. Harry is a toxic piece of garbage.

980
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: Obviously they shouldn't end up together. Well, and then then

981
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 1: there's just like the big theme of like men and

982
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 1: women can't be friends, which is wrong. I spent a

983
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 1: lot of time talking about that, how it's a very

984
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 1: like outdated, heter normative, wrong notion when I was rewatching,

985
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: and then I was reading a little bit. There's a

986
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 1: great piece that came out over five years ago now

987
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,399
Speaker 1: on Split Sider, by a great writer who I think

988
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 1: is at the New Yorker. Now we know what she does.

989
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: Her name is Blithe Robertson, and she's great, and she

990
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 1: wrote this pretty comprehensive piece on a number of the

991
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: reasons why it's not a feminist masterpiece. But one thing

992
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,800
Speaker 1: I learned from reading that was that in the original ending,

993
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 1: Nora Fron and Rob Ryner had them just stay friends,

994
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: that would have been a toxic friendship. Well, I would

995
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 1: have liked that ending so much more because and that's

996
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 1: another problem with Sally, for me, it's like she, the

997
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: version of Sally I have in my head wouldn't end

998
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: up with him. I think the version of Sally and

999
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: my head would stay his friend. But even then stop

1000
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: answering texts after a while, ghost on him kind of

1001
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: fired by the movie. Well, we were talking about this

1002
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 1: kind of recently, about like how do you remove yourself

1003
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 1: from a friendship that is just like, oh, this is

1004
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 1: like a very negative thing in my life. Like that

1005
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 1: seems like the more realistic problem for them to have

1006
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 1: to deal with of Like, clearly they have a connection,

1007
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: they have history. I get that their friends. Even then

1008
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: I'm like the friendship that's got to end at some

1009
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: point or change because it too is very toxic. Well,

1010
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: like with a lot of Hollywood movies, there's a huge

1011
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 1: emphasis placed on the romantic relationship and making sure it

1012
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 1: works out, so they have to end up together at

1013
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: the end, and even if it doesn't make sense for

1014
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 1: the story or the characters. And I would have loved

1015
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: for it to have them not end up at the

1016
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: end because it would have proved his theory wrong because

1017
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: it's wrong. It's confusing to me because it's like I

1018
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 1: have to feel to keep my world afloat. I have

1019
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 1: to feel that Nora fron knew this, knew that this

1020
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 1: message is a commercial message and not true to anything,

1021
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 1: because she nor Everyone's fucking cool and she she was

1022
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,479
Speaker 1: subtweeting before Twitter existed. She's the most passive aggressive person

1023
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: in the entire history of the world. But so god

1024
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 1: because she was married to Carl Bernstein of Woodward and Bernstein.

1025
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: He completely fucked her over, you know, cheated on her

1026
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: all this horrible stuff, and then she spent years just

1027
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: subtweeting him via very high grossing movies and like it's

1028
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 1: great and I love it. Like her, like core Tenant

1029
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 1: is that everything is copied, and so she, you know,

1030
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 1: a bit bit of a bridge burner in terms of like, well,

1031
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: if you fuck me over, go to the movie theater

1032
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 1: in a year and a half and you can see

1033
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 1: how much I hate you. But that to me, I'm like,

1034
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 1: that's cool. That's nor A fron in a in a

1035
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 1: crew cut lady kind of way. It was very punk rock.

1036
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: I didn't know that much about her, so I like, yeah,

1037
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: it's a great documentary. Better on if you if you

1038
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 1: can convince your little brother to give you his HBO

1039
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 1: go password check it out. That's my advice to blanket advice. Hey,

1040
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 1: you don't have a little brother too bad, get one

1041
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 1: brow up, make sure he gets an HBO Go password,

1042
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: and then steal it from him. Yeah, your little brother

1043
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 1: probably has student discounts that my little brother has. Well.

1044
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 1: This movie also sort of perpetuates this idea that sex

1045
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: is going to complicate everything in a friendship, which sure,

1046
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: I'm sure it does in some cases, and I'm sure

1047
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: in other cases it doesn't. I know this from experience

1048
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: where I've had friendships or like sort of butting romantic

1049
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 1: relationships where we've had sex. Mom, I've had sex before.

1050
00:59:56,040 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: She sorry, We're so sorry, but no. Um. I've had

1051
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: like you know, budding romantic situations where I have had

1052
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 1: sexual ill intercourse with that person sex and we ended

1053
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: up not continuing to date, but we kept as friends,

1054
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 1: like we didn't keep having sex. I have a number

1055
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 1: of people I can say this about. Also, my best

1056
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 1: friend of twelve or more years is a man who

1057
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 1: I've never had sex with. Is it because he's gay?

1058
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 1: To say it's not because he's not handsome? Because JT

1059
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 1: is so handsome. Check out his episode about Twilight Hot Babe,

1060
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 1: on the loose lookout. Yeah, it's just this movie's operating

1061
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 1: by these like very archaic standards and and and it's like,

1062
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 1: there's no excuse for it, but I'm gonna try and

1063
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 1: make one like even if they acknowledged inside of that

1064
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:06,919
Speaker 1: very narrow minded ideology. But we're not saying that that

1065
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 1: no man and woman can ever be friends. But sometimes

1066
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: it can blow up a friendship, which is not as

1067
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 1: fun a thesis statement to make, so you can't do it.

1068
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 1: But it's like, you know, obviously we've all had friendships

1069
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: that have been obliterated by by making an a mean

1070
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:32,080
Speaker 1: sexual intercourse. But then there's other friendships where you're just like, oh,

1071
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 1: that was weird. Let's let's go back to never doing

1072
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 1: that anymore. Spoken from life right, ripped from the pages

1073
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: of my own life. Hey, coming, coming from coming to

1074
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 1: don't come with your friends or do whatever you want.

1075
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: I mean, my most of my problems with the movie

1076
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: are in like the first and last ten minutes, where

1077
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 1: it sets you up to a in this very narrow minded,

1078
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:05,720
Speaker 1: completely not true to reality. You know, men be these

1079
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 1: women be this, and then at the end they're like, well,

1080
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: in spite of men be this women be this, men

1081
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: be this, and women be this, and now they are

1082
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 1: fucking and it's just like, well they get married like

1083
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 1: four months later some worship. No way does that marriage

1084
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: work out or it does, and they're fucking miserable, like

1085
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 1: there's no way that marriage works out well in context

1086
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 1: this movie came out. What that's I guess people. I mean,

1087
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 1: people are still getting married for dumb, dumb fucking reasons today,

1088
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: but more so than I don't know, Yeah, I just

1089
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: feel like this movie it's weird because Nora Efron is

1090
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 1: everything that this movie is not communicating. I mean, I

1091
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 1: don't know a whole lot about the influence of the

1092
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 1: studio kind of thing about this movie. But you know,

1093
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: sometimes there's like, well they have to end up together

1094
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 1: because Hollywood. I think that's why the ending changed. Yeah,

1095
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 1: but that's still there's there's still like what they set

1096
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: you up with at the beginning, Like I didn't remember

1097
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 1: how weird the documentary part is like with that, you're

1098
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: just like, oh, women, but they're just they they're not

1099
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: really participants in this often not at all. Right, Uh,

1100
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 1: did we talk about Carrie Fisher at all? We did, Yes,

1101
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 1: We mostly just talked about how her entire existence is

1102
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 1: framed around the men that she's involved with, first the

1103
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: guy who won't leave his wife for her, and then Jess. Oh,

1104
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 1: and I had a real problem with the scene where

1105
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 1: she bonds with Jess because she read and quoted back

1106
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 1: to him something he had written. It makes no sense

1107
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:52,320
Speaker 1: about theater and restaurants, and yeah, I was annoyed that, Like,

1108
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: it would be great if she came up with an

1109
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 1: opinion on her own and then he had also the

1110
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 1: same opinion, and that's how they bond did. But she

1111
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 1: was just like, here's the thing I'm going to say.

1112
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 1: I read it in a magazine. He's like, I wrote

1113
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:12,200
Speaker 1: that in that magazine. She's like, let me come for you. Right.

1114
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 1: Everyone in this movie could be doing much better, except

1115
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 1: for Harry, who should have died at some point in

1116
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: Act one and then we could have experienced something less toxic.

1117
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: And Harry is such a horrible character, and it's not

1118
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 1: even worth discussing all the ways in which he's horrible.

1119
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: They're not compatible. It drives me nuts. In their where

1120
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 1: there's a woman and then there's a man near her,

1121
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 1: and they're long enough, he literally wears her down, and

1122
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 1: they're like, isn't this romantic and you're just like no.

1123
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:52,439
Speaker 1: So often, you see, you have no idea why two

1124
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:55,959
Speaker 1: characters like or love each other, apart from the fact

1125
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 1: that they both want to suck each other and they

1126
01:04:57,960 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 1: just happened to be near each other quite a bit.

1127
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 1: Like well, their names are in the time, so it's

1128
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: just so often that no time is spent developing their

1129
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 1: relationship and why they might be compatible. To me, Harry

1130
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 1: and Sally they make no sense together. They have widely

1131
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: different personalities and takes on life, and it makes no

1132
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 1: sense why they'd somehow be soulmates or whatever. I think

1133
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 1: Harry needs to be passed away in Act one, but

1134
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 1: I also think that, you know, realistically, it's like that's

1135
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: someone that you've got. He's got to find like a

1136
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 1: really like aggressive partner who will just fucking steamroll him

1137
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 1: and put him in his place, because otherwise he's just

1138
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:43,880
Speaker 1: going to be an asshole all the time like he

1139
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 1: is to Sally. Sally needs someone who I don't know

1140
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:50,480
Speaker 1: what is she Well, we don't know anything about it, really,

1141
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 1: so right to say, well, who she should be with.

1142
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 1: A better version of this movie would be if Harry,

1143
01:05:55,960 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 1: if they met thus the title Act one, Harry dies

1144
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: in a tragic choking accident. Maybe he tries some of

1145
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 1: her apple pie with strawberry ice cream on it, and

1146
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 1: he's like, oh god, it's so just and then chokes

1147
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 1: and dies. And then someone's like, I'll have what he's having.

1148
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: And then she's like, oh, I'm a journalist. Let me

1149
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 1: pursue this career. And then the whole movie is about

1150
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:31,080
Speaker 1: her life as a journalist. I just ya trying to

1151
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 1: about her, to uncover who Deep Throat is or who

1152
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 1: the whole Nixon's I know it's not the right era, listen,

1153
01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:43,919
Speaker 1: but talking about Nixon is gonna be triggering for Nora

1154
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 1: Avron because she was married to Carl Bernstein. That's what

1155
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 1: I'm saying. That you got to leave Nixon out of

1156
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 1: unless unless she felt But I'm actually prepared to write

1157
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 1: what you wrote. You would know about what if she

1158
01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: You would be great if Nora Evron hated Carl Bernstein

1159
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 1: so much that she wrote a whole screenplay that was

1160
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 1: like Nixon was good and what word of Burnsney never

1161
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 1: should have done those things that they did. Karl Bursney sucks.

1162
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 1: I'll do that for her, yeah, Pour one out for Hey,

1163
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 1: do you want to write the movie? Yeah, I'm gonna

1164
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 1: give it to I know, I know, I know, I'm

1165
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:29,520
Speaker 1: gonna give it too because I love Nora Efron so much.

1166
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 1: I think that Sally has potential, like extreme potential as

1167
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:38,200
Speaker 1: a character that we should know more about, and has

1168
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 1: all the you know, she's like a rough outline of

1169
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 1: a good female character with no shading or color or

1170
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:48,800
Speaker 1: other art metaphors. So I'll give it to uh Carrie

1171
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 1: Fisher rest in Paradise. Her character stinks though, and like Crystal,

1172
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 1: is a toxic a piece of garbage. But boy, can

1173
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:58,480
Speaker 1: the man host an oscar ceremony? I give it to

1174
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: They are Nora friends, dead nipples. I didn't assign my

1175
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 1: nipples to anyone. Wait, um, now is my chance? You

1176
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 1: just got the one though? Right? I gave it one nipple.

1177
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 1: It belongs to Alice, who gets almost no screen time.

1178
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:21,800
Speaker 1: We barely even know who she is. Why is she

1179
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 1: even there? I mean great that there's another female character.

1180
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:31,080
Speaker 1: Does she only ever talk about men? Yes? Like literally only. Also,

1181
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:33,759
Speaker 1: we concluded that the movie does not pass the Bechdel tests.

1182
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:37,680
Speaker 1: It doesn't. I have no argument. Yeah, I was a

1183
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 1: few scenes where I was like, well they talk about

1184
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 1: her wedding dress or they talk about I don't know.

1185
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 1: I was so like frustrated by the time, I was like,

1186
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 1: it's a head or a wedding all right, Well that

1187
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 1: has been our episode in that was when barely met Naomi, right,

1188
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 1: and then when when Jamie showed up an hour late

1189
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:09,760
Speaker 1: in this one. But even though we didn't really intersect,

1190
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 1: we still had a great time. I've had a great

1191
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 1: time here today. I look forward to listening to it. Yeah,

1192
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 1: you can follow us the Betel Cast on social media

1193
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 1: at backtel Cast, on Twitter, on Instagram. And if you

1194
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 1: like our episodes, if you want to really alleviate some

1195
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:36,160
Speaker 1: of our production costs for the episodes that you listen

1196
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 1: to for free, you could. If you want to donate

1197
01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:41,599
Speaker 1: us some money on our PayPal, it would really help

1198
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,559
Speaker 1: us out. We'd really appreciate it. You can go to PayPal,

1199
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:48,759
Speaker 1: dot me, backslash, becktel Cast. Give us a couple of dollars,

1200
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 1: give us eight thousand dollars, those are your choices. Anywhere

1201
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 1: between a couple and eight thousand would really do a

1202
01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 1: lot for us. No, but we we appreciate it. Thank

1203
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 1: you to everyone who has donated to set up a

1204
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 1: recurring donation and thanks for your little notes. We've gotten

1205
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:09,479
Speaker 1: a little notes from people who have been like I

1206
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:12,919
Speaker 1: love the cats, keep it up. Yeah, So thank you

1207
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:16,200
Speaker 1: all right, Jamie, thanks for being here. Oh my god.

1208
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 1: We'll see you next time. By