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Speaker 1: In the Great Green Room, there was a telephone and

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Speaker 1: a red balloon and a picture of the cow jumping

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Speaker 1: over the moon.

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Speaker 2: Those words have been spoken aloud at countless bedtimes. Parents

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Speaker 2: and children generations over can recite them from memory, but

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Speaker 2: few know who it was who committed those famous lines

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Speaker 2: to the page? Can you name the author of good

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Speaker 2: Night Moon?

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Speaker 3: I didn't even realize that Margaret was my favorite author

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Speaker 3: when I was a child.

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Speaker 2: This is Amy Gary, author of in the Great Green Room.

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Speaker 2: The Brilliant and Bold Life of Margaret wise Brown.

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Speaker 3: She did a lot of books that a lot of

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Speaker 3: people don't know she wrote. She's much more famous for

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Speaker 3: her works than for her name.

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Speaker 2: In her lifetime, Margaret wise Brown published more than one

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Speaker 2: hundred books. The prolific author also wrote many many more

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Speaker 2: works that went unpublished for years. More than seventy of

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Speaker 2: Margaret's unpublished manuscripts sat hidden in a cedar trunk in Vermont.

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Speaker 2: The trunk was stored in the attic of her sister

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Speaker 2: Roberta's home.

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Speaker 3: So I thought, oh my god, they've got to be ruined,

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Speaker 3: because the Vermont winners are brutal, and there's just no

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Speaker 3: way these papers would have survived.

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Speaker 2: Amy's concerns are born of experience. She was part of

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Speaker 2: a small publishing company. She knew books and how delicate

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Speaker 2: they can be. She first got to know Roberta thanks

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Speaker 2: to her efforts to reprint some of Margaret's older works.

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Speaker 2: They got to talking, and then a few months later

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Speaker 2: Amy found herself hunched over at her desk looking at

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Speaker 2: over five hundred pages of unpublished manuscripts.

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Speaker 3: It was onion skin paper, which is this really really

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Speaker 3: thin paper, and they were stacked to end. This trunk

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Speaker 3: was full, completely in to end of things. Margaret had

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Speaker 3: left behind.

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Speaker 2: Books, music, poems, personal notes. The trunk held a veritable

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Speaker 2: treasure of all sorts of things Margaret Wise Brown set

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Speaker 2: down on paper, very very delicate paper. For more than

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Speaker 2: thirty years, Amy has published selections from the trunk of

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Speaker 2: treasures from Margaret's written life, and along the way, a

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Speaker 2: striking portrait of Margaret has emerged.

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Speaker 3: She found joy where she could find joy, and she

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Speaker 3: lived hard. She lived well.

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Speaker 4: I hope to write something serious one day, as soon

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Speaker 4: as I have something to say, But I am stuck

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Speaker 4: in my childhood, and that raises the devil when one

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Speaker 4: wants to move on.

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Speaker 2: Margaret Wise Brown was a rare one. She lived part

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Speaker 2: time on an island in Maine in an abandoned shack

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Speaker 2: with no running water or electricity. She blew royalty checks

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Speaker 2: on brand new Chryslers and transatlantic vacations. She died doing

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Speaker 2: a can can kick, and when she passed she left

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Speaker 2: her fortune to a nine year old neighbor. But none

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Speaker 2: of those anecdotes are the main course for today's episode.

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Speaker 2: Today's story is about her deceptively complex classic children's book

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Speaker 2: Goodnight Moon, because if the New York Public Library had

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Speaker 2: gotten its way, you would have never even heard of it.

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Speaker 2: This is Very Special Episodes, and I'm your host, Sarah

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Speaker 2: Burnett Today's episode Goodnight Moon.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to Very Special Episodes. I'm Jason, She's Dana.

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Speaker 5: He's Zaren. Do you guys read Goodnight Moon as a kid. Oh?

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Speaker 6: I loved Goodnight Moon.

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Speaker 2: Completely, big fan favorite in the Burnette household. Dana, do

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Speaker 2: you plan to read good Night Moon to you're young

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Speaker 2: and keep the tradition going?

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Speaker 6: You know, we actually don't have it. I have a

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Speaker 6: seven month old baby. Is the shock update of this

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Speaker 6: episode of Very Special Episodes. And we have a lot

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Speaker 6: of kids books. We're in a big green Eggs and

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Speaker 6: ham fades. I'm also reading Chester's Way a lot, which

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Speaker 6: is very fun for me, but he is too young

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Speaker 6: to kind of even absorb it. Like there's baby books

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Speaker 6: for him those are so boring. So I'm just like

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Speaker 6: reading books for older kids to him that I kind

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Speaker 6: of enjoy it.

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Speaker 5: Right seven months of the same baby.

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Speaker 6: Book exactly, So I'm just like reading what I want.

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Speaker 6: I just ordered and this is exciting. King Big Goods

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Speaker 6: in the Bathtub, which I remember reading when I was

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Speaker 6: a kid. Stay tuned to see whether Arthur likes that one.

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Speaker 5: My grandma Nana, she turned ninety four this week. She

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Speaker 5: got my kids a Hallmark version of good Night Moon

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Speaker 5: where she got to record herself narrating it and then

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Speaker 5: nailed it.

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Speaker 2: Oh.

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Speaker 5: I don't know if Hallmark still has access to this technology,

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Speaker 5: but it was an incredible gift. She has a very nice,

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Speaker 5: soothing voice, so they probably for several years every night

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Speaker 5: I heard Nana reading Goodnight Moon to them, and she

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Speaker 5: added some like DVD commentary about what what else was

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Speaker 5: happening on the page and whatnot. It was delightful. So

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Speaker 5: I have a very positive association with the book. That's

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Speaker 5: such a good gifts like a good literary feud, especially

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Speaker 5: one that involves librarians. So this hits all the boxes

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Speaker 5: for me.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 2: Margaret wise Brown was born in Brooklyn in nineteen ten,

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Speaker 2: the middle child of three in a well to do family.

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Speaker 2: Her parents sent her off to attend boarding schools in

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Speaker 2: Switzerland and Massachusetts, and when she was home, she was

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Speaker 2: not expected to follow the traditional roles common for girls

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Speaker 2: of that age. Her father encouraged her to enjoy the outdoors,

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Speaker 2: to hunt and to fish. She was a talented beagler.

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Speaker 2: It's a type of small game hunting where the hunter

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Speaker 2: runs along alongside a pack of hunting dogs. Margaret had

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Speaker 2: no problem keeping up.

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Speaker 3: She traveled extensively as a child. She knew what was interesting,

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Speaker 3: and she had kept diaries her whole life since childhood,

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Speaker 3: and she would just go back into her diaries, remind

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Speaker 3: herself of what she was feeling at different times throughout

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Speaker 3: her life, and draw on those emotions put something into writing.

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Speaker 2: When Margaret was growing up, fairy tales were the preferred

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Speaker 2: stories her children. Princes, fairies, dragons, they were all the rage.

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Speaker 2: But when Margaret began to pen her own stories, they

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Speaker 2: focused on the real world of what was around her,

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Speaker 2: what she directly saw, felt, and smelled.

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Speaker 7: A bug in a rug, a bug in the grass,

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Speaker 7: a bug on the sidewalk, a bug in a glass.

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Speaker 2: After graduating from Holland's College in Virginia, she moved back

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Speaker 2: to New York. Margaret began submitting short fiction to magazines, unsuccessfully,

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Speaker 2: but her writing output in those days was prolific and unconventional.

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Speaker 4: Big as the whole world, deep as a giant.

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Speaker 2: Margaret seemed to love words above all else. She told

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Speaker 2: one professor she hated writing stories. Quote with plots.

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Speaker 4: Quiet is electricity rushing about the world.

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Speaker 3: I can read yet another little furry bunny doing something,

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Speaker 3: little furry animal doing something, and I come away amazed

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Speaker 3: at how perfect her poetry is.

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Speaker 4: Quiet as electricity, rushing about the world, quiet as mud.

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Speaker 2: These are the sentences. Margaret treasured her prized audience, and

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Speaker 2: as far as she was concerned that the best authors

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Speaker 2: around were children, specifically five year olds. As she once

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Speaker 2: wrote in an.

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Speaker 4: Essay, all these are five year old similes. Let the

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Speaker 4: grown up writer for children equal or better them if

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Speaker 4: he can.

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Speaker 2: Margaret also tried to become a teacher, again unsuccessfully. She

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Speaker 2: wasn't great at leading a classroom, much like her writing.

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Speaker 2: She was a bit unfocused, much like her young students.

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Speaker 2: And then Margaret found a kindred soul.

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Speaker 3: Lucy Mitchell said, I may have created the here and

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Speaker 3: now philosophy, but Margaret gave it wings, and she did.

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Speaker 2: Lucy Sprague Mitchell was an educator who taught at Berkeley.

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Speaker 2: A woman dissatisfied with the gap between girls and boys education,

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Speaker 2: so she upended the educational system.

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Speaker 3: Prior to Margaret and her mentor's work on children's literature,

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Speaker 3: girls and boys had been educated separately. Girls had one

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Speaker 3: track of education, boys had another.

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Speaker 2: In separate classrooms. Girls were taught simpler mathematics, less complex theories,

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Speaker 2: materials far different from what boys learned, which made it

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Speaker 2: impossible for girls to be on equal footing when they

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Speaker 2: were placed in a co ed course in college with boys.

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Speaker 3: So Lucy Mitchell her mentor had been at the high

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Speaker 3: levels of education within the California system and realized you

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Speaker 3: had to take it all the way down to the

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Speaker 3: kindergarten level and start from there. So she brought in

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Speaker 3: all of these different methods from around the world to

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Speaker 3: help move education forward, hopefully making it as she called it,

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Speaker 3: democratic for boys and girls to be educated, not only

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Speaker 3: for girls to be educated equally, but for boys to

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Speaker 3: see the girls as equals. So one of the things

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Speaker 3: that they did was they wanted them to be able

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Speaker 3: to use the same language within literature.

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Speaker 2: The Bank Street School theorized that in order for education

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Speaker 2: to really be quote equal, boys and girls needed to

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Speaker 2: be reading the same things, learning the same lessons, seeing

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Speaker 2: themselves through the same lenses.

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Speaker 3: But if you took textbooks for literature and tried to

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Speaker 3: have it be taught in a classroom that were fairy

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Speaker 3: tales and fables, and you still had the trend of

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Speaker 3: girls looking for me mauraged to be their ultimate goal.

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Speaker 2: The same books Margaret had grown up on were still

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Speaker 2: the ones she began to teach to her students. Well,

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Speaker 2: that wouldn't do for a revolutionary classroom in the nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 2: so she enrolled at Lucy's Bank Street Cooperative School for teachers,

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Speaker 2: and Margaret did what she did best, She wrote for children.

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Speaker 3: So she and Margaret began writing textbooks to forward stories

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Speaker 3: that used characters that they created. More than that, they

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Speaker 3: wanted to give children their own words back to them.

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Speaker 2: The Bank Street school philosophy was based on the here

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Speaker 2: and now storybook, or what Lucy had dubbed here and Now.

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Speaker 3: The here and now philosophy was, we're going to give

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Speaker 3: the child their own world back to them their own

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Speaker 3: here and now. It was a very unique way to

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Speaker 3: approach a child's world. We're not going to talk down

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Speaker 3: to the child. We're going to talk to the child.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk to them at their level. Instead

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Speaker 3: of expecting them to be little adults, we're going to

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Speaker 3: talk to them as children, and we're going to give

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Speaker 3: them their world as they see it and let them

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Speaker 3: be who they are.

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Speaker 4: If we are writing for these delights and interests of

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Speaker 4: five year olds, we must remember them and experience them

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Speaker 4: in our stories. And another thing, no matter how important

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Speaker 4: we know little kittens and steam engines to be to

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Speaker 4: a five year old, no one can ever write about

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Speaker 4: them without a real love for them and familiarity with

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Speaker 4: them in some form, actual or remembered.

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Speaker 3: So they would have children write stories for the teachers,

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Speaker 3: and then they would take the stories look at the

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Speaker 3: words the children used around a particular event. They would

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Speaker 3: take that vocabulary and by age rank the words that

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Speaker 3: the children used and then use that list of vocabulary

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Speaker 3: to be able to write their stories for children.

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Speaker 2: The educators quite literally let the children pick the words

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Speaker 2: for the adults to compose into sentences. The words were

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Speaker 2: ones that kids connected with, savored, and enjoyed. The children

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Speaker 2: would also become the words.

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Speaker 3: And then they would also physically let the children become

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Speaker 3: different characters, like buzzing bees or pretend to be a dog.

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Speaker 3: Then they would note what the children did as that dog.

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Speaker 2: They did the same with illustrations. They brought in artists

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Speaker 2: and let the kids be the judges of which pictures

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Speaker 2: spoke to them.

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Speaker 3: And if it didn't ring true to the children, the

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Speaker 3: illustrators were sent back to try again, because sometimes it

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Speaker 3: didn't really look like a car to the children, or

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Speaker 3: it didn't really look like a dog to the children.

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Speaker 2: This was key because the kids saw the world with

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Speaker 2: their tiny eyes of wonder. The educators wanted the adult

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Speaker 2: artists to do the same.

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Speaker 3: She wanted true fine artists to learn how to illustrate

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Speaker 3: for children because they were to see the world differently

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Speaker 3: as well. How do you take something that is bold

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Speaker 3: and different and put it into something a child would see?

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Speaker 3: How do you have an illustrator, recreate sound through art,

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Speaker 3: have a jagged piece of art, illustrate what it is

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Speaker 3: she's trying to portray through her words.

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Speaker 2: The educators also pulled from the emerging field of child

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Speaker 2: psychology to help craft their stories.

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Speaker 3: They both were very much aware of how psychology played

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Speaker 3: into a child's mind at different ages. A really good

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Speaker 3: example of this is Runaway Bunny.

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Speaker 4: Once there was a little bunny who wanted to run away.

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Speaker 3: Around the age of two, a child begins to see

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Speaker 3: themselves as separate being from a parent.

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Speaker 4: If you run away, said his mother, I will run

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Speaker 4: after you, for you are my little bunny.

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Speaker 3: And it's scary. It's a very scary thing for the child.

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Speaker 3: They have this sort of love hate relationship with being

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Speaker 3: an independent being. So Margaret knew about this French love

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Speaker 3: song that she had heard when she was in boarding

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Speaker 3: school in Switzerland.

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Speaker 2: The love song is the musical account of an unwelcome advance.

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Speaker 2: There's a relentless pursuer and a narrator who wants nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with them. Think if you pursue me, I'll

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Speaker 2: become a fish to escape you. If you become a fish,

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Speaker 2: I'll become an eel to hunt you down that kind

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Speaker 2: of thing.

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Speaker 4: If you run after me, said the little bunny, I

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Speaker 4: will become a fish in a trout stream, and I

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Speaker 4: will swim away from you.

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Speaker 3: Margaret knew that sort of if you then I changing

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Speaker 3: method would really work in terms of the mother child relationship,

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Speaker 3: but doing it in terms of safety instead of threatening.

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Speaker 4: If you become a fish in a trout stream, said

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Speaker 4: his mother, I will become a fisherman, and I will

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Speaker 4: fish for you.

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Speaker 3: Those kinds of psychological assurances worked really well for the

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Speaker 3: runaway bunny, and she knew it would because she understood

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Speaker 3: that psychology that plays well for that particular age. So

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Speaker 3: assurances giving back to the children what they heard, they saw,

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Speaker 3: they understood at those particular ages was crucial to helping

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Speaker 3: a child begin to understand their own world.

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Speaker 2: The children were in charge. Margaret was simply a wordsmith.

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Speaker 2: She selected from the children's vocabulary, She borrowed from their

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Speaker 2: language of sights and sounds and smells, and then in

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Speaker 2: their rhythms, she transformed the children's words into poetry. She

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Speaker 2: was like a dj of syllables and phonetic phrases that

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Speaker 2: delight children. Ever, the child herself, Margaret was very good

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Speaker 2: at it.

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Speaker 3: She knew how to comfort a child because she had

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Speaker 3: sought some of that comfort on her own as a child.

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Speaker 3: She knew what she needed as a child and remembered

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Speaker 3: what she needed.

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Speaker 4: Shucks, said the bunny. I might just as well stay

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Speaker 4: where I am and be your little bunny. And so

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Speaker 4: he did have a carrot, said the mother bunny.

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Speaker 2: Margaret's world of bunnies and bugs and of curious eyes

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Speaker 2: peering through bushes resonated with children, and it was profitable too.

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Speaker 3: As the popularity of the here and now philosophy grew

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Speaker 3: in terms of the publications being bought and other publishers

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Speaker 3: adopting this idea that yes, we can publish directly to

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Speaker 3: the marketplace and not just take fairy tales and fables

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Speaker 3: and redo them. And it was the wild West of

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Speaker 3: children's publishing, and it was a lot of arguments within

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Speaker 3: the publishing world itself.

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Speaker 2: Margaret wasn't just satisfied with revolutionizing children's books. She wanted everything,

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Speaker 2: every part of the publishing process to become better.

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Speaker 3: We're going to now have golden books sold at pennies

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Speaker 3: instead of dollars, and everybody can have books in their homes.

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Speaker 2: Little Golden Books. The publisher for many of Margaret's works

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Speaker 2: specialized in those durable, hardcover, brightly colorful, and importantly affordable

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Speaker 2: children's books. Usually the publisher printed in both color and

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Speaker 2: black and white to save on printing costs. The low

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Speaker 2: cost books were successful, but they also lowered the esteem

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Speaker 2: for the writers and illustrators who worked with the publisher.

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Speaker 2: Other book companies came to the conclusion that.

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Speaker 3: If they worked for Golden Books, they were going to

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Speaker 3: be doing cheap books. And Margaret went on a stump

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Speaker 3: tour of publishing panels and just said, there is no

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Speaker 3: such thing as cheap books. If you have good writing

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Speaker 3: and good illustrations, that's quality. With Golden Books, we are

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Speaker 3: giving them just some of the best stuff that's out there. Yes,

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Speaker 3: it might be priced more cheaply, but the quality is there.

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Speaker 3: And you know what, those same books are still on

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Speaker 3: the racks today.

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Speaker 2: Margaret also did the same sort of goodwill tour for illustrators.

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Speaker 3: She worked very closely with her illustrators, which we do

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Speaker 3: not do in publishing anymore. You have an illustrator over

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Speaker 3: here and an author over here, and near the two

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Speaker 3: shell meet. But she invited her illustrators to come and

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Speaker 3: work and collaborate with her, because they really were defining

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Speaker 3: a whole new way to make books for children. Very interactive.

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Speaker 2: As a businesswoman, she made the books she wanted to

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Speaker 2: read and to look at.

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Speaker 3: At the time she started working, illustrators were paid nothing,

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Speaker 3: and she realized that if she were to keep these

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Speaker 3: illustrators that she loved working for her, they had to

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Speaker 3: make as much as she made. And so she went

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Speaker 3: to her publishers and said pay them more, and they said, nope,

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Speaker 3: we're not going to do it. She said, well, then

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Speaker 3: split my royalties with them. She demanded that her publishers,

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Speaker 3: if they're not going to use something, she wanted her

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Speaker 3: rights back, and she also fought to keep rights that

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Speaker 3: they weren't going to use. All of the ructures that

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Speaker 3: she created we still use in publishing today. Every single

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Speaker 3: royalty structure she created is still in place.

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Speaker 2: Once Margaret's books were in wide circulation and readers loved them,

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Speaker 2: that's when the publishers who'd previously turned up their noses

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Speaker 2: at Lucy's Here and now approached to Kitty Litt were

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Speaker 2: suddenly lining up to knock on her door. According to Amy,

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Speaker 2: at one point, demand for Margaret's books was so strong

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Speaker 2: she was writing for six different publishers under different pen names.

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Speaker 2: She was also working across genres. Margaret wrote children's books,

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Speaker 2: but she also penned adult poems, she wrote music, and

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Speaker 2: she was even beginning to branch out to TV and

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Speaker 2: to radio.

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Speaker 3: I have mad respect for this woman. Her telegrams to

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Speaker 3: her publishers were things like I better not see you

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Speaker 3: on the streets of Paris, or I'm going to shoot

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Speaker 3: you with my bow and arrow. So was she did

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Speaker 3: it with such grace and he ilarity that they couldn't

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Speaker 3: really be mad at her. And she was right, darn it,

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Speaker 3: she was right.

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Speaker 2: Despite becoming an adult author and successful children's lit author,

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Speaker 2: Margaret still hadn't really grown up. Ever, the big kid

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Speaker 2: success certainly didn't spoil her. She remained a true eccentric character.

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Speaker 3: Margaret was always with the dog in tow if she

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Speaker 3: could be. When she was in New York City. He

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Speaker 3: was known to peddle on people at bus stops and

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Speaker 3: pretty much get up to no good anytime he was

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Speaker 3: with her.

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Speaker 2: Allegedly, one time, Margaret tried to leave her dog in

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Speaker 2: her convertible. The dog wasn't into that idea. So she

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Speaker 2: tied his leash to the steering wheel and she went

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Speaker 2: about her business.

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Speaker 3: In no time he was you know, I think he

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Speaker 3: pulled the steering wheel off the car with his leash

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Speaker 3: and was running down the street or something.

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Speaker 2: After that, she came to the only reasonable conclusion. She

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Speaker 2: decided it was best if she kept her dog with

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Speaker 2: her wherever she went. One day, Margaret, she showed up

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Speaker 2: to a business meeting with her agent.

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Speaker 3: And she was carrying these two ice cream cones with her,

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Speaker 3: and she thought, oh, how lovely Margaret's brought us ice cream.

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Speaker 3: And Margaret's down and begins to give the dog ice

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Speaker 3: cream cones, not the staff, but the dog, so that

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Speaker 3: she could have her meetings with her dog in tow.

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Speaker 2: Margaret's life was entirely her own. Basically, she lived a

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Speaker 2: sort of life she'd want to write about. There wasn't

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Speaker 2: much daylight between the quirky stories she wrote and the

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Speaker 2: days she lived and enjoyed to their fullest. In her thirties,

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Speaker 2: Margaret moved into a small apartment in Manhattan. But it

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Speaker 2: was not what you may be picturing. It wasn't a

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Speaker 2: tall building. In fact, it was another shack. It was

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Speaker 2: a small white clapboard shack low to the ground in

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Speaker 2: Greenwich Village.

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Speaker 4: It was a little house in the middle of a

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Speaker 4: big city, and nobody knew it was there.

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Speaker 2: She'd go on to write some of her most beloved

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Speaker 2: works in and about her secret big city shack. She

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Speaker 2: wrote about her home in a book, The Hidden House.

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Speaker 4: It had been there for years and years, for over

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Speaker 4: one hundred years, forgotten, and there it stood, in a

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Speaker 4: hidden garden in the middle of the big block of skyscrapers.

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Speaker 2: At her studio Cobble Court, named after the cobblestone streets

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Speaker 2: that surrounded her hidden house. Margaret continued to compose poetry

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Speaker 2: and literature according to the philosophy of here and.

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Speaker 4: Now the Great Green Room.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps she never fully realized how consequential those everyday settings

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Speaker 2: and mundane objects would become.

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Speaker 4: There was a telephone, but.

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Speaker 2: She saw the world with a child's eyes, the kind

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Speaker 2: that can enliven anything, even the most mundane, like wallpaper.

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Speaker 2: One time, Margaret grew enamored with the bold colors of

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Speaker 2: a neighbor's apartment.

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Speaker 3: She wanted it to feel like you were walking into

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Speaker 3: a Spanish painting. And she's seen this apartment with the

400
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 3: bold red, bold green, bold yellow, and she wanted to

401
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 3: recreate that in the book, or she.

402
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 2: Could find a world in the nooks and crannies of

403
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Speaker 2: her studio.

404
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 3: And a young mouse, and so the mouse that was

405
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Speaker 3: in the hall, which I think she really did have

406
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Speaker 3: a mouse in that little tiny apartment of hers. That

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00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 3: it is based on physically is it is cobblecorp.

408
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 2: Margaret also recalled the nighttime spent in her childhood bedroom

409
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Speaker 2: calling out to the moon with her sister.

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Speaker 7: ROBERTA good night room, good night moon, good night cow,

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Speaker 7: jumping over the moon, good night light in the red balloon.

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Speaker 3: The actual idea from Goodnight Moon came from her childhood

413
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Speaker 3: with her sister. She and her sister would say good

414
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Speaker 3: night to all the things in the room as they

415
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Speaker 3: were going to bed.

416
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Speaker 7: Good Night bears, goodnight chairs.

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Speaker 2: Can you picture the room from the book. There's the

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Speaker 2: three bright walls, nearly askew, nestled against the far wall.

419
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Speaker 2: There's a crackling fireplace, tucked safe and cozy inside the

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Speaker 2: sheets of the big red bed. There's a little bunny

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Speaker 2: and peering in through the windows, surrounded by a starry night.

422
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Speaker 2: Is a bright white full moon when it came out

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Speaker 2: in nineteen forty seven. Good Night Moon won praise from

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Speaker 2: The New York Times, The Paper of Record highlighted the

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Speaker 2: book's rhythms and it's now iconic illustrations, which certainly expressed

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Speaker 2: the philosophy of here and now.

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Speaker 3: And she was also publishing a lot of discussions about

428
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Speaker 3: whether or not she should blend fantasy into reality. Margaret

429
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 3: wanted every child to see themselves within a story by

430
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Speaker 3: placing animals as the protagonist. So as you notice in

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Speaker 3: Goodnight Moon there's a bunny in that bed. It's not

432
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Speaker 3: a child, it's a bunny. So every child can see

433
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Speaker 3: themselves as that bunny. Doesn't matter, gender, doesn't matter, race.

434
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Speaker 3: And at some point they actually thought about making the

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Speaker 3: old lady human and instead made her bunny because that

436
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Speaker 3: would have broken that wall of fantasy of the bunny.

437
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 3: And then do you clothe the animals? Do you not?

438
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Speaker 3: I mean, like, where do you blend that reality and fantasy.

439
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 2: While Margaret was successfully reimagining the style and the philosophy

440
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: of books for kids, not everyone loved her big new

441
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 2: ideas for how to change children's literature. Remember how we

442
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: said the New York Public Library would get involved in

443
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 2: all this, stay tuned for the lions about to roar.

444
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 8: Let's just be frank about it. Goodnight Moon is a

445
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 8: weird book. The color scheme is weird. There's a tiger's

446
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 8: skin on the ground. Bunnies shoot tigers. Sure everyone is

447
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 8: bunny's for some reason.

448
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: That's Betsy Bird. Now, Betsy wasn't there to bad mouth

449
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 2: good Night Moon back in nineteen forty seven. But she

450
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: is a librarian and formerly with the New York Public Library,

451
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: which is how she knows so much about one certain

452
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: librarian who did sharpen her knives for good Night Moon.

453
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 8: There's certainly no plot, and then it kind of goes,

454
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 8: heywhy where it's like good night nobody? Like what are

455
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 8: we saying good night to the void?

456
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 6: You know?

457
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 8: Any way you slice it, this was a strange book.

458
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 8: Anne Carroll Moore did not approve of it for Newer

459
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 8: Public Library, which meant it didn't get added to near

460
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 8: Public Library.

461
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: And Carol Moore in many many of the stories you

462
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 2: may read or hear about Margaret wise Brown, this librarian

463
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: comes off as the villain. And Carol Moore, she'd been

464
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: head of the New York Public Library's Children's section by

465
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 2: nineteen forty seven, she was working in a consulting role.

466
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 8: So Anne Carroll Moore was, as I say, pretty much

467
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 8: what you kind of picture when you picture a library.

468
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 8: If you look at photographs of her, she's very stately,

469
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 8: you know, good straight back on her.

470
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: Take your expectations for a stern, no nonsense librarian, and

471
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: then crank it up to ten and then past ten

472
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 2: up to eleven. She was that extra. Even though people

473
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: liked to portray Anne and Margaret as diametric opposites, both

474
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 2: women were equally eccentric.

475
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 8: She had a little wooden Dutch doll named Nicholas, whom

476
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 8: she would speak to on a regular basis. It was

477
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 8: probably seen as a little weird then, it's certainly seen

478
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,719
Speaker 8: as a little weird now. So people would make tiny

479
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 8: things for Nicholas, and she would keep them in a

480
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 8: large case. There was a tiny faberget egg from a

481
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 8: former Russian countess I believe, who had escaped the country

482
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 8: prior to the revolution, and so just imagine like the

483
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 8: world's tiniest faberge egg.

484
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: Despite her tiny wooden Dutch doll, Nicholas, or the tiniest

485
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: faberget egg, and her sordid treasure trove of oddities and gifts,

486
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 2: and Carol Moore held enormous influence in the book world,

487
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: and not just over libraries, but over books all over

488
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: the country. Her name was synonymous with children's literature.

489
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 8: And Carroll Moore was completely known by everyone everywhere. She

490
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 8: was the person who started children's services at near public library,

491
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 8: and she had had huge sway over not just children's

492
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 8: book collections in New York, but all over the country

493
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 8: thanks to her newsletters and her choices and her best

494
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 8: of books of the yearless so when I came in,

495
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 8: her name was synonymous with what it meant to be

496
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 8: a children's librarian and the name.

497
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: To know and children's lit Because before and Carol Moore,

498
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: children's literature didn't exist, not really, not in the way

499
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: we might think of it.

500
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 8: So to really understand how important Ann Carroll Moore was,

501
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 8: you kind of have to understand what the state of

502
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 8: children's book publishing was at that time. If you wanted

503
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 8: a children's book, the bookstores there were mostly favored adult books,

504
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 8: and so you'd probably have to go to the library.

505
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 8: The librarians had more sway over the children's book industry

506
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 8: than anyone else. Ann Carl Moore sort of led the

507
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 8: charge at New York Public Library, and all children's authors, illustrators,

508
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 8: and even editors would come to her. They wanted her

509
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 8: stamp of approval. What she approved, librarians around the country

510
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 8: would purchase.

511
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: Ann's power was so great she held sway over bookstores

512
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: and libraries all across the country. She was also involved

513
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: in the creation of the Newberry and the Caldecott Awards,

514
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: which are today two of the most prestigious awards in

515
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 2: children's literature.

516
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 8: And as a result, you know, it very much depended

517
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 8: on what she saw was good and what was bad.

518
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 8: And what she thought was bad were things that she

519
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 8: called truck.

520
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 2: Not like what you might drive. Truck was Anne's portmanteau

521
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: for books she saw as part toy and part book,

522
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: and worthless as both.

523
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 8: Truck was no good, So books that seemed like toys

524
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 8: like Pat the Bunny Truck series, like Nancy Drew Truck,

525
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 8: Let's see the comics. Oh do I even have to

526
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 8: say it? Truck truck Truck. She really wanted kids books

527
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,479
Speaker 8: to be seen as their own legitimate literature form, and

528
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 8: she was hugely influential in getting people to believe that.

529
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: Anne's mission doesn't sound particularly villainous. She wanted to provide

530
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 2: the children of America with good, clean books, stories written

531
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 2: for kids, and being a traditionalist, naturally, she preferred fairy tales.

532
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 8: This is why if you go into many an older

533
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 8: children's room, you'll find a huge fairy tale folk tale

534
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,479
Speaker 8: collections section. That's because that's what librarians wanted.

535
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 2: Fairy tales and folk tales, the exact same stories. Margaret

536
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: grew up reading the exact same stories that made her

537
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 2: want to go full on Bank Street School and revolutionized

538
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: children's lit. But her rival, Anne Carol Moore disagreed on

539
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: philosophical grounds. She believed the only good books were the

540
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: fantasies because that's what Anne Carrol Moore liked.

541
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 8: She felt that children lived in sort of a magical

542
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 8: time and there was this certain kind of book that

543
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 8: suited them better. She liked fantasy quite a lot. She

544
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 8: was not as big a fan of realism, and she

545
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 8: certainly wasn't a fan of when realism and fantasy intertwined.

546
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 8: This is kind of one of the reasons she clashed

547
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 8: with new thinkings about childhood that came out of places

548
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 8: like the Bank Street School of Education, and of course

549
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 8: who came out of the Bank Street School of Education,

550
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 8: Margaret wise Brown.

551
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: Anne opposed everything Margaret stood for, all the thoughts she'd

552
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: put into how to best blend the real world with

553
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 2: the fantastic, the time she spent learning how to play

554
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: with anomanopea the way children do, to make her words

555
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: sing like poetry and sound like childhood, no matter to

556
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 2: her the stern head librarian and Carol Moore, she wasn't listening.

557
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 8: So the Bank Street College of Education, they had a

558
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 8: very specific way of teaching their educators. You see how

559
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 8: kids see things, you think how kids think, and you

560
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 8: don't disparage it in any way. So it's funny that

561
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 8: Anne Carroll Moore was trying to get a form of

562
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 8: legitimacy for literature for the actual kids themselves. She was

563
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 8: not interested in the psychology of the child. She was

564
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 8: interested in giving them the best books, which she would

565
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 8: determine because she was an adult, and quite frankly, if

566
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 8: you let kids choose, they'd choose something she didn't approve of.

567
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 8: So this was almost a philosophical difference that they had

568
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 8: with one another. But for Ann Carroll Moore, children's books

569
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 8: had a very specific role that they were supposed to fit,

570
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 8: and anything that didn't fit into that role was seen

571
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 8: as other and therefore suspicious and maybe not as good

572
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 8: as kids deserved.

573
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: Nineteen forty seven, Good Night Moon was published. That meant

574
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: the two rivals were guaranteed a face off because Margaret

575
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: had to make the pilgrimage to the New York Public

576
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: Library to make her case before Anne Carroll Moore.

577
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 8: And like everyone else, Margaret wise Brown had to make

578
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 8: that trip and try to sell her very unique style

579
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 8: to Anne Carroll Moore. And Ann Carroll Moore, you cannot

580
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 8: say she never added a Margaret wise Brown book to

581
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 8: her shelf. She did, but she didn't add them all.

582
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 8: So there were certain titles she didn't add, and one

583
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 8: of them was, without a doubt, Good Night Moon.

584
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: What was the result of her pilgrimage to the New

585
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 2: York Public Library A clear, resounding, and now legendary no.

586
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: Ann Carroll Moore ruled that the New York Public Library

587
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 2: would not carry Good Night Moon. Looking back, we can't

588
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: know what was going through Anne's mind when she made

589
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: that decision, but thanks to those long forgotten papers from

590
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 2: a cedar chest, Betsy Bird does have an idea or

591
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: two about why this the book was rejected and not

592
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: others from Margaret Wise.

593
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 8: Brown Bunnies had worked with Runaway Bunny, though these bunnies

594
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 8: were wearing clothes and had telephones and owned cats. Let's

595
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 8: just think about that. So, like I say, there's a

596
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 8: level of weird internal logic going on there. Andermore did

597
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 8: not deal well with weird internal logic.

598
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 2: There were other classics and Carol Moore barred from the

599
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: library shelves. Charlotte's Webb and Stuart Little come to mind.

600
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 2: They were on Anne's no Library list to give you

601
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 2: a better idea of what classics she would call truck

602
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: But in the case of good Night Moon.

603
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 3: And Carroll Moore came out very much against all of

604
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 3: the here and now books.

605
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 2: Here's Amy Gary with Margaret's side of the story.

606
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 3: There are many letters back and forth between Margaret and

607
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 3: Bill Scott, the publisher, about what they're going to do

608
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 3: about the fact that New York Public Library, a very

609
00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 3: prominent stalwart in terms of library and content, would not

610
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 3: carry the books or review them. And it was frustrating

611
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 3: for them because it was just a hard line in

612
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: the sand against what they were doing.

613
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: Yes, this major librarian's book review and support would boost

614
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: her new book's popularity. But Margaret was also a well

615
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: established author. She and the publishers had other ways to

616
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 2: get reviews, mainly through newspapers.

617
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 3: However, it's still felt like a very personal slight to her.

618
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 3: There are letters from where she is written to Ursula.

619
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 2: That's Ursula Nordstrom, who's a well known children's book.

620
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 3: Editor, about how it hurt to be treated so poorly

621
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 3: by Anne Carol Moore. And I hurt for her because

622
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 3: she wanted that acceptance as a writer of not children's books,

623
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 3: but children's literature. And I will say, you know, she

624
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 3: may have lost the battle, but she sure as heck

625
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 3: won the war.

626
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 2: Looking at Margaret and and here were two brilliant women

627
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 2: entirely dedicated to their shared goal to legitimize and advance

628
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 2: the promise of children's literature. Just like Margaret wise Brown

629
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: and Carol Moore wanted to give children their own literature

630
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 2: because she also cared about kids. And keep in mind,

631
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 2: this was at a time when having a childhood like

632
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: we know it was a luxury and not common.

633
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 8: This is not long after a time when children simply

634
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 8: were not even allowed in libraries, the idea of creating

635
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 8: a space for them was still relatively new, because children

636
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 8: were grimy, disgusting many adults and did not deserve their

637
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 8: own space. I mean, half the time if the kid

638
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 8: was working class a had coal dust on their hands.

639
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 8: She was someone who truly believed that children not only

640
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 8: belonged in the library, but they deserved to have really

641
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 8: good books for themselves in the library.

642
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 2: Perhaps even more radically, and believed all children should have

643
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 2: access to stories. While Margaret wanted to make education between

644
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: boys and girls more egalitarian and knew that opening a

645
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,439
Speaker 2: children's library in New York City meant opening a new

646
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: library in one of the most diverse cities in the world,

647
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: and she intended to reflect that diversity in the shelves

648
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 2: of the children's library.

649
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 8: She wasn't just saying white, rich kids need to be

650
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 8: in the library. She literally wanted every single child in

651
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 8: the library. Under her watch and the watch of her successors,

652
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 8: that system was set up with the understanding that all

653
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 8: children belonged in the library. And then, of course, yes,

654
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 8: she was buying books from around the world, which quite

655
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 8: frankly is difficult to do today, and then they had

656
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 8: to be good books. So she would find the best

657
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 8: books in other languages for kids and put them in

658
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 8: the library for them specifically. So this is what she

659
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 8: believed a library was and could do.

660
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 2: To be clear, many of these books, while they may

661
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,280
Speaker 2: have been in a different language, were intended to help

662
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: immigrant children assimilate and to quote, become more American. Still,

663
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 2: what Anne believed in was quality literature for children, just

664
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: like Margaret did. They wanted kids to read things that mattered.

665
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 2: Where they didn't quite see eye to eye was the

666
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: question of what mattered.

667
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 8: It is so easy to be on the side of

668
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 8: Margaret wise Brown. She's more fun than Anne Carroll Moore,

669
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 8: and Carroll Moore is literally the librarian that shoushes you.

670
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 8: Margaret wise Brown died because she did the can can

671
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 8: for fun in her hospital bed. I mean literally, they

672
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 8: could not be more diametrically opposed in so many ways.

673
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 8: So I have a lot of sympathy as a result

674
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 8: for what I consider to be the underdog in this story,

675
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 8: and that's Anne Carroll Moore and Carrol Moore did not

676
00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 8: destroy Margaret wise Brown's career, and in fact, possibly we

677
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 8: kept some of her lesser good books out of the

678
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 8: library I don't think she deeply loathed Margaret wise Brown.

679
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,720
Speaker 8: I just don't think she had anything fur.

680
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,439
Speaker 2: As a librarian today, Betsy still feels protective over Anne.

681
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 8: The fact of the matter is that if you're a critic,

682
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 8: it's very easy for people not to like you. But

683
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 8: if you're a critic, you are trying to separate the

684
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 8: wheat from the chaff. As a librarian, my job is

685
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 8: to find the best of the best of the best

686
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 8: and to hand them over and to make kids fall

687
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 8: in love with reading. And you cannot get kids to

688
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 8: fall in love with reading if you're giving them schlock

689
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 8: or I'm sorry, truck. These days, our job is very different.

690
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 8: We still are looking for the best, but we have

691
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 8: so many books to look through, which is wonderful. But

692
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 8: we also have so many voices we can like listen

693
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 8: to and hear and read through.

694
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 2: Betsy likens the root of children's librarianship to quote windows

695
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 2: and mirrors. If you just read books all about yourself,

696
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: you're looking into a mirror. However, when you read about

697
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 2: the world.

698
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 8: It's like a window you can see the experience of

699
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 8: other people.

700
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:11,280
Speaker 2: Margaret's books were certainly a window into another world, another

701
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: way of being.

702
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 3: After working with Margaret's papers and letters and diaries all

703
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 3: these years, something that has really touched me is to

704
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 3: understand how to live true to yourself. And it was

705
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 3: a journey for her to fight against the system to

706
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 3: be true to her own sexuality at that time. I

707
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 3: can only look at her at the time and just

708
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 3: say I think she did the best she could with

709
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 3: what she had at the time, and she brought so

710
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 3: many people along the path with her, and she fought

711
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 3: for her own self in terms of business in a

712
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 3: way that a lot of people didn't have the guts

713
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 3: to do.

714
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: Margaret died young. She was just forty two. It was

715
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: recovering from an emergency surgery. A nurse asked Margaret how

716
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: she was feeling. Margaret high kicked her leg up to

717
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 2: show the nurse she was feeling great. That sudden movement

718
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 2: dislodged a blood clot in her leg. She died shortly after.

719
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: Twenty years after her death, in nineteen seventy two, the

720
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 2: New York Public Library added Good Night Moon to its shelves.

721
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 2: By that time, the world of children's literature had caught

722
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 2: up to Margaret. The shelves were now stocked full with

723
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 2: follow along books that depicted the world from a five

724
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 2: year old's eyes, Goodnight Moon was now the classic. Although

725
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 2: sales had dipped in the years just before Margaret's death,

726
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 2: After she passed, the sales numbers slowly began climbing. Amy

727
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: Gary has a theory as to why.

728
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: There are many reasons I think Goodnight Moon has touched

729
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 3: so many people. One is it did hit at the

730
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 3: absolute right time.

731
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 2: As we've noted, Margaret public plish Goodnight Moon in nineteen

732
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: forty seven, she was just in time for the biggest

733
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 2: baby boom America had ever known. They named the Whole

734
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: Generation after that explosion of infants.

735
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,959
Speaker 3: Babies were being born, parents were reading it. But more

736
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 3: than that, she wanted there to be an interactive element

737
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 3: to it. So you have the interactivity of the parent

738
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 3: and the child finding the mouse together. So it's not

739
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 3: just a story that's being read to the child. It's

740
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 3: a moment together for the parent and child to share.

741
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: Good Night, little house and.

742
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 8: Good night mouse.

743
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: This unassuming little book, red and yellow and Green started

744
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: making its way through households, appearing in bedrooms and classrooms.

745
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: Typically it was read aloud.

746
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: Good night comb and good night brush.

747
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 2: Sales kept climbing, fifteen hundred copies in nineteen fifty three,

748
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 2: twenty thousand copies in nineteen seventy, more than four million

749
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 2: copies by nineteen ninety.

750
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 3: So you're passing this on generation to generation. It just

751
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 3: builds and builds and builds over generations. So they want

752
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 3: that experience with their own child as they grow up,

753
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 3: and it just continues to magnify and magnifon.

754
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: Turns out, Margaret was on to something with her quote

755
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: strange way of writing. Her words left an indelible mark

756
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: on the whole industry of children's literature, precisely because of

757
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 2: how nonsensical her words sounded.

758
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 7: Good Night nobody, good night mush.

759
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 2: Even if a certain librarian saw her new style in

760
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: writing philosophy as mere.

761
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 7: Truck and good night to the old lady whispering hush.

762
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 2: Margaret brought a child's world to the page, and in

763
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: doing so, she did indeed revolutionize children's literature.

764
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 7: Good Night stars, good night air, good night noises everywhere.

765
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 5: So it might be a challenge to try to adapt

766
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 5: good Night Moon the book for the big screen. I

767
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 5: think HBO something in the nineties to go back and

768
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,919
Speaker 5: check that out. But Saren, if you were in charge

769
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 5: of casting the podcast about the book, yes, it was

770
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 5: in the story. Well you know, I like you.

771
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 2: I love a story of two people fighting against each

772
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 2: other to do what they truly believe is a good thing.

773
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 2: Like that's the recipe for great drama. So like, I

774
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 2: was so into the casting for this one. For Margaret

775
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: wise Brown, I thought Emma Stone because she can do

776
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 2: that poetic, quirky in her sleep, right, So I think

777
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 2: you have her play Margaret wise Brown. And then for

778
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: her not stone cold rival, but her rival, and Carol Moore,

779
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 2: you go with another Ann and Halfaway because people seem

780
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 2: to love to see her as a villain. So I

781
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 2: was like, I can see her playing a librarian. I mean,

782
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 2: can't you see a full grown Ann Hathaway playing with

783
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: her a little wooden Dutch doll named Nicholas. I mean,

784
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 2: I'm in that moment, right. And then and for Lucy Mitchell,

785
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: the California educator with the here and now philosophy, I

786
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: was thinking, mix it up Selena Gomez. She'd be fun.

787
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 2: She seems literary. Boom, there you go, you got a

788
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 2: hit movie.

789
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 5: I love this.

790
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 6: I love a literary thriller. It's kind of my favorite

791
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 6: genre of movie. And also, did you look up actual

792
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 6: pictures of Margaret wise Brown because she was a babe?

793
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 7: Yeah?

794
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah. I was trying like not to say

795
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:17,720
Speaker 2: that exactly what happened.

796
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 6: I'll say it, she objectively is a baby.

797
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 2: I had to consider it in my casting.

798
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,439
Speaker 5: There's one other character that didn't play a big role

799
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 5: in the episode, but his name is Albert Clark, and

800
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 5: he's the one who has willed the copyright. You know,

801
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,919
Speaker 5: he inherits the good Night Moon Fortune, even though he's

802
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 5: just a neighbor of Margaret wise Brown. I think the

803
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 5: kid from adolescence could play young Albert Clark. Good call,

804
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 5: let's get him in there. Yes, a little bit of

805
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 5: a tragic story for Albert Clark. The New Republic ran

806
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 5: a story in twenty twenty one and talked about how

807
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 5: when he turned twenty one he got the rights. Now,

808
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,879
Speaker 5: the book wasn't a huge success at Margaret wise Brown's death,

809
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 5: so I don't think anyone was expecting this would just

810
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 5: be throwing off millions of dollars for his whole life.

811
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 5: Some run ins with the law, oh wow. But he

812
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 5: lived until eight seventy four, died in twenty eighteen, and

813
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 5: now his four children are the copyright holders. What the

814
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 5: right term is they are getting the money When my

815
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 5: grandma buys a book from Hallmark and records herself.

816
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 6: That's amazing.

817
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 5: What a lucky turn.

818
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 2: Seriously, do we know any reason why he was the

819
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 2: benefactor for her wealth? Did he like play some role

820
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 2: in her life? Was he like just the cool kids

821
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 2: she loved seeing play?

822
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 6: According from Wikipedia, neighbors, Yeah, neighbors.

823
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 5: The fact checker had some good notes about what we

824
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 5: could and couldn't say, just some speculation, and so the

825
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 5: son of a neighbor friend, I guess, is where we're

826
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 5: gonna go.

827
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 2: Okay, I think it's sweet, totally sweet, strange turn of events,

828
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: but totally sweet. Also, by the way, did you guys

829
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 2: I don't know, but if this one struck you, but

830
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 2: the Ann's portmanteau of truck, I'm going to use it.

831
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 2: I love the idea of something that is both a

832
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 2: toy and a book. And as I got to dismissive

833
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 2: derogatory term, I'm totally putting that one in the act.

834
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: It's a truck.

835
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

836
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 5: Those baby books that Dana is sick of truck.

837
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, but at least Good Night Moon has this like

838
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 6: weird echoey liminal quality too it that I find kind

839
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 6: of entrancing.

840
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 2: Totally. No, I'm so kind of surprised at the book publishing.

841
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: It took him so long to get to the here

842
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: and now philosophy. Were they allergic to making money? It's

843
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 2: so obviously like this is like the future of children's literature,

844
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 2: and they're just like no dragons.

845
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 5: Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people.

846
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 5: Today's episode was written by Carmen Borca Correo and edited

847
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 5: by Emily Rudder from the Wonder Media Network. Wonder is

848
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 5: a great partner of ours at Very Special Episodes. They

849
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,879
Speaker 5: worked on the Andy the Sneaker Wearing Goose episode, which

850
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 5: was many people's favorite that we've done this year, and

851
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 5: they'll have more to come. Very Special Episodes is hosted

852
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 5: by Zaren Burnett, Danish Schwartz, and Jason English. Our producer

853
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 5: is Josh Fisher. Editing and sound design by Chrischilds, Additional

854
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 5: editing by Mary Doo, mixing and mastering by Chris Childs,

855
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 5: fact checking by Maya Shukri. Thanks to our troop of

856
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 5: extraordinary voice actors Katie Maddie, Chrischilds, Josh Fisher, Jonathan Washington,

857
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 5: Charlotte English, and Juliette English. My middle daughter Kate is

858
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 5: ay at summer camp. She didn't get a chance to

859
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,439
Speaker 5: read for the role. Original music by Elise McCoy, Show

860
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 5: logo by Lucy Kintonia. Our executive producer is Jason English.

861
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 5: We are taking a break from publishing new episodes as

862
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 5: we work on our fall and winter slate. We've got

863
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 5: a lot of good stuff in the works. Maybe we'll

864
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 5: pop on and do a preview episode later this summer.

865
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 5: In the meantime, if you'd like to email the show,

866
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 5: you can reach us at Very Special Episodes at gmail

867
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 5: dot com. Dana is the most famous Danish swartz on

868
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 5: TikTok and Instagram. Zaren is Zarin three on Twitter. I

869
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 5: just joined Instagram. I'm Jason English nine. Let's keep in

870
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 5: touch over the summer. Very Special Episodes is a production

871
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 5: of iHeart Podcasts.