1 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production of 2 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: the Bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where 3 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: we render down, dive deeper, and looked behind the scenes 4 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f HF Gear, 5 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed 6 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: to be as rugged as the places we explore. I 7 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: always feel like a kid in here, like I'm just 8 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: poking around to see what man. I really wanted to 9 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: clean this place up before we all came, because like, 10 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: when this death starts looking like this, it's like time 11 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: to do something. But you know what I got, I 12 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: got something to say about this where there are no 13 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: when the stables are clean, that's right, But you need 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: you need a big ox to have a great yeah, 15 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: and you need a big one every one of these. 16 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: This is in here because I traveled to Tennessee to 17 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: meet a special undercover agent and I had to take 18 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: this right from the truck. This is in here because 19 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 1: when I first started uh using mules like years ago, 20 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: somebody told me Vicks vapor rub. If you put Vix 21 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: vapor rub in the nostrils of your mule, that you 22 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: could put any type of wild game on their back 23 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: because they couldn't smell it. It turns out sure didn't 24 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: work for me, but I still have to Vicks vapor 25 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: rub So I had to take this out of the 26 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: destroy the other day because the drawer wouldn't shut because 27 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: of it. So that's why that's there. That was vapor ses. 28 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: I don't know why those are there. It's like a 29 00:01:54,760 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: bad pawn shop in here, because it's like nothing's organized, 30 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: like you know what you're go into the pawn shops 31 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: and you've got kind of rifle through things. That makes 32 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: me feel like you're getting a deal. Like somebody's passed 33 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: over this because they didn't want to go through it 34 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: and you and you pick up things and outside of 35 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: the case, you know, like the glass case and the pawnshop, 36 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: exactly pick it up and exactly. I got to introduce 37 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: some some international folks that are staying with us for 38 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: a wedding. What mass pro looks like their mind was blown? 39 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: Really did you go there with him? I took them 40 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: there yesterday. They were also surprised that you carried a 41 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: pocket knife, yes, and they assumed it was a weapon 42 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: and I was like, absolutely not, this is a tool. 43 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: Just a tool. You've got a I got a good 44 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: pocket knife to you when we were you'all know, I 45 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 1: work at a school and I got a call from 46 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: a parent one time trying to see if they should 47 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: arrange for us too. There's some pocket knife train that's 48 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: a little distracting. They to see if they needed to 49 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 1: arrange for my son to meet their son off campus 50 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: for a purchase of a pocket knife, or if I 51 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: was okay with it if they sold this pocket knife 52 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: on campus. The two boys wanted to sell, one being 53 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: my our son, and I was like, well, hold on 54 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: just a second. I don't know much about this. Let 55 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: me get the details. Bear Nucom had had been taking 56 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: pieces of steel, metal, fingernail clippers, anything he could find. 57 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: Old story and right, yeah, he's young. I thought this 58 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: happened like this week. No, no schools out. Uh, this 59 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: is like a long time ago. And Bear was taken 60 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: like gathering up any spare piece blades and stuff or 61 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: fingernail clippers that was a pretty popular one. And he 62 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: what did he have? He had a grinder, electric grinder 63 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: that like a wheel grinder. He was like nine years 64 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: old and making Yeah. Actually I had to talk to 65 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: him about ethics inside of business ownership, because I'm pretty 66 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: sure he's sold a pocket knife that he'd ground out 67 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: of a saws all blade and wrapped para cord around 68 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: the handle some kid at school for like twenty bucks. 69 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that, Yeah, I say, principal of the school. 70 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: So I have to write all these parents and say hey, yeah, 71 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: this is years ago. And I had to write him 72 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: and say, hey, I'm really sorry about there's apparently like 73 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: an off market deal going on. We weren't aware of it. 74 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: We were aware that Bear was making knives. We thought 75 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: it was a cute thing for him to do at 76 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: the house. We are not encouraging enterprise at the school. 77 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: We will refund you your money. How are these transactions happening? Okay, 78 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: you're bringing cash to school. Talk to him about it, 79 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: as I said, I said, Man, I said, don't you 80 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: think that's pretty high for the what you the amount 81 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: of time you had making this, and what you've paid 82 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: to get the raw materials. You know, you kind of 83 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: got to take into consideration. Your customer, too, likes is 84 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: pretty pretty pride. He's like, Dad, they mean they're paying it, 85 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: they'll pay that. And I said, I said, Man, I 86 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: don't know what to tell you. I'm out of stock. Yeah, 87 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: you don't pay for them out of hair. Cut out 88 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: that that's cut off your head. You pay for the 89 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: expertise of the man cutty. So was it like, hey, 90 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: meet me around back and it was the play. Unfortunately, 91 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: Bear thought I'd be proud of him, and it wasn't. 92 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: There was a little bit in me that was like, 93 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: well that's kind of entrepreneurial, you know. I wasn't a 94 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: little proud, And I told Clay, I don't really know, 95 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: Like I clearly have a responsibility as a school administrator 96 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: to not let there be the cell of weapons and 97 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: our property. Yeah, well, welcome to the Bear Grease friender man. 98 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: This is a exciting one we have. I have with me. 99 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: I have Josh Langbridge, filmmaker to my left wearing a 100 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: nice believer hat. Yeah it looks good. It looks good. Uh. 101 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: To his left, my wife Missy Newcombe always good to 102 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: be here. To your left, Brent Reeves shout out on 103 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: the podcast this week, Did I did? I liked that 104 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: it was good and used accurately. Yeah, I thought it was. 105 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: It really was. Brent's beards a little trimmer, a little 106 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: close cropped summer I did yesterday and Bailey walks downstairs, Daddy, 107 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: your glasses are bigger, same glasses, beard smaller. I had 108 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: this revelation just a second ago about Brent Reeves. He 109 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: has a way of making you feel like you're with 110 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: him when you're just listening to him. I was thinking 111 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: about seeing him today, are with him today? But I 112 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: was like, I had this feeling of like very familiar 113 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: about this yesterday, no earlier today, anticipating seeing Brent, thinking 114 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: it didn't feel like it had been two months since 115 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: i'd seen him. You know what I mean, what do 116 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: you attribute this to? I don't know, velvet pipes. Oh, 117 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: it just brings you right into the moment, to these feelings. 118 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: Now to bricelet not Isaac Neil Isaac. We now we 119 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: introduced you back in February as the assistant producer Beargrease. 120 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: Now we could I think I have the authority to 121 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: change your title. You could be assistant to the producer 122 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: Man Isaac. Isaac has a lot of fingerprints all over 123 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: the bar Grease podcast. Um. Isaac does a whole lot, 124 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: a whole lot for meataturing for us, but on this 125 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: one in particular, and we'll go. I think we'll go 126 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: into the origins of why h how this came about 127 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: that we decided to tell the story that we told 128 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: over the last three episodes. Um, but Isaac was there 129 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: right in the middle of it, and Isaac was actually 130 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: the one who said you could do it like this anyway. 131 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: We'll talk about that later. To your left, Gary newcom Gary, 132 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: good to see man. Yeah, I'm looking forward to see 133 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: what Gary has to say about all this. Um oh, 134 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: my lands, I look forward to anything. Yeah, me too. Hey, 135 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: I want to before we dive into deep here, and 136 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: I really wanted just like straight up talk about the podcast. 137 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: So last time you guys got weren't involved in the 138 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: Render because we were in Montana and so we didn't 139 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: really talk about you know, there were just three of 140 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: us there. Bear was there, and so we didn't talk 141 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: about episode two. So I want to get I want 142 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: to do like a full encompassing, full encompassing conversation, have 143 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: one about episode two. We had a really good Render 144 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: about episode one where we where we we talked, well 145 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: we can we can come. Can we just say something 146 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: about the Render crew last time? Because I feel like 147 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: we always get to evaluate them I'd like to evaluate 148 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: Clay Nuclam's statements in that podcast. I learned that Clay 149 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: sent our barely walking Sun. I'm Tod and it's chef, 150 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: and I in Yeah, just news to me. Your parenting 151 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: tactics always amazing me. I trust you, and then I 152 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: hearn't isn't it? Isn't it? A proverb says training train 153 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: a child up in the way he should go, and 154 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: then send him towards the bear. It's something like that, 155 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: is what were you thinking? Though? I think about how 156 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 1: how much I trust there, and I tell people all 157 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: the time, like we don't have to worry. I try 158 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: Clay if he says it's okay, it's okay. And then 159 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: I hear that story and I'm thinking, well it ended 160 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: up being okay. It was it was just a small bear, 161 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: and that a small innocuus bear. Yeah, I think about 162 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: this here here, take comfort in this. That's the story 163 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: that you know about. I know, yeah, you shouldn't let 164 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: that go. Let well where I was going to go though, 165 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: before we get into our big discussion, you'll see these 166 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: books right here, the stack of books yesterday, a couple 167 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: of days ago, I looked across all my bookshelves and 168 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: was trying to It all started just when I I 169 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: saw a book. I saw this book Biophilia. Yeah, this 170 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: book right here, and I was like, oh man, I 171 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: hadn't seen that book in a while, and it's got 172 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: all kind of handwritten notes in it and stuff. And 173 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: I was like, this book was really influential to me. 174 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: And I was like, you know what, there was another 175 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: book that was really influential. And I started looking for 176 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: Ian Tattersall's Becoming Human and I was like, you know what, 177 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: another three books that we're influencing. Anyway, I started, I 178 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: made a stack of what I think is the most 179 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: influential books to date. Yes, Josh, where's the Bible? That 180 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 1: was gonna be the thing I was gonna say next 181 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: aside from the Bible here, okay, yeah, would it make 182 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: you feel better? It would make you feel more comfortable? Yeah? Yeah, Okay, 183 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: definitely very true story books not written by you know 184 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: that aren't the Bible are inspired? Okay, but all these books. 185 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,839 Speaker 1: So there's Wild Sports, there's Boone by Robert Morgan, there's 186 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: my father Daniel Boone, which those two books together we're 187 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: really unique. And as I just always thought that book 188 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: written by Nathan Boone, was about his father. The interview 189 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: that he did Nathan Boone did with his dad was 190 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: really wild. Uh. There's a couple of non history hunting books. 191 00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: This book Atomic Habits. This is like a pop culture 192 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 1: like New York Times bestselling self help, quick self help 193 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: kind of book that I typically wouldn't read. But man, 194 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: I think about this book all the time. Atomic Habits. Man, 195 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: it was really good. Tiny changes. And then Sand County 196 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: Almanac by Aldo Leopold, which I read in college. Dr 197 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: David Miller who was on the Barker's podcast one time 198 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: he had us read that and little did I know 199 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: that that book would be influential. And then uh, Boys Adrift, man, goalie, 200 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: if you have if you have boys, you got to 201 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: read that book, Boys Adrift, And it talks about five 202 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: factors driving the growing epidemic of unmotivated boys and underachieving 203 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: young men. It's a really good book. Um. And then 204 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: this book right here, the account of Cabeza de Vaca. 205 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: These guys wash your mouth. That was so so this 206 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: is the account of the first Europeans that made it 207 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: in land into North America. So uh, it was Cabeza 208 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: dive and Uh. I mean they were the first guys 209 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: that like went in land, and he describes It's been 210 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: a while since I've read it, but they described the 211 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: tribes that they encountered, but they described the topography and 212 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: the land, and that's This book is a document that 213 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: tells current biographers of the of of the just what 214 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: this place looked like in terms of vegetation and stuff. 215 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: And it's really interesting. You know, I hadn't read this 216 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: book in several years. Um, I know, I'm just saying 217 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: I've kind of forgotten exactly Cabeza de Vaca landed in 218 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: Florida in fifty Yeah, first guys, pretty wild man. I 219 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: remember there was a story in here about a man 220 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 1: getting killed crossing the river. Oh, I do remember. They 221 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: came to this raging river. So they had this like 222 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: regiment of men that they had had animals with them 223 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: and pigs with them, and like they had to carry 224 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: everything they would need to survive. And they came to 225 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: this raging river and there was this young guy that 226 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: was like, we can cross here, and everybody else was like, man, 227 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: I don't think we can. And this dude jumped in 228 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: the river with his horse and tried to cross this river, 229 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: and he drowned. He and his horse drowned, and they 230 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: went and found his body like a mile and a 231 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: half downstream. Buried the man and ate the horse. Pretty serious. 232 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: Um so these two books by beargreas Hero and Alumni 233 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: Brooks Blevins, The History of the Ozarks The Old Ozark's 234 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: Part One. Isaac's read it so it really is it? 235 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: It's so good. Yeah, wherever you live, you ought to 236 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: know about the history where you live. This one is 237 00:14:53,920 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: really one of my favorites. Arkansas, Arkansas by Brooks Abilies 238 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: and good Old Boys defined the state really incredible, good yep. 239 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: And then we're almost done. And then uh, Wild Sports 240 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: by Frederick Gerstalker and then Against the Grain Richard Manning. 241 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: This book is uh, kind of controversial, but guess what, 242 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: So it's Burgher's podcast he forgot too really important. But 243 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: oh yeah, this one, Dad Took Off Meat Eater by 244 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: Steve Rinella. I read this years ago, long before I 245 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: would have known Steve. This was in my list and 246 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: it was just it's just a kind of a memoir. 247 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: It's just like stories from his past. And I remember 248 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: really being impacted by this book and just kind of 249 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: the the musings inside of it. And then the last 250 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: book that was in the stack was this book called 251 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: The Life of Elijah by A. W. Pink. So Elijah 252 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: a guy in the in the Bible, wild guy man. 253 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: I love to lie you because he was he was 254 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: from he was from a region. Basically, he was like 255 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: a hillbilly in the Middle East for real, like they 256 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: they were. They They're very little known about where he 257 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: came from, except that the place he came from was 258 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: like a wild, rural, rugged place. And he in the 259 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: indication is that like he was like that, you know, 260 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: the people of the hills reflected the nature of their environment. 261 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: They were rough and rugged. Solomon Stern, dwelling in rude villages, 262 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: subsisting by keeping flocks of sheep, hardened by an open 263 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,119 Speaker 1: air life, Dressed in a cloak of camel's hair, accustomed 264 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: to spending most of the time in solitude, Possessed of 265 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: a sinewy strength which enabled him to endure great physical strain, 266 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: Elijah would present a market contrast with the town dwellers 267 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: in the Lowland valleys, and especially he would be distinguished 268 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: from the pampered courtiers of the Palace because he interacted 269 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: with the King's so old. Elijah W. Pink. I don't 270 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: really know where to start other than to say this 271 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: series has been the most enjoyable of any podcast series 272 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: I've ever built. And it's been because I have always 273 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: been had a deep sense of place inside of my life, 274 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: like I like being from somewhere that we've kind of 275 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: just been from there a long time. And so the 276 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,959 Speaker 1: fact that this is these were not stories that I 277 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: was reading about in a book, even though I wasn't there, 278 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: and I didn't know these men well. I mean on 279 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: a personal level, I did not know these men. Well. 280 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: I was just a kid growing up while these guys 281 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: were kind of in their prime. And I mean I 282 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: probably haven't seen these men since I was eighteen years 283 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: old or something, you know, So it's not like I 284 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: was close to these guys. What it kind of felt 285 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: like and and and and and what and I think 286 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: and I've attributed this to Dad this so many times, 287 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: but when Dad would so Dad was a banker, and 288 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: I remember he used to take us all over to 289 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: sea customers that had killed a big deer or for 290 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: whatever reason. We remember multiple times going to people's houses 291 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: way out in the country and it was just I mean, 292 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 1: you probably wouldn't have known that that was impacting, and 293 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: I probably didn't know it was impacting until later in 294 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: my life. But you know, you were kind of you 295 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: enjoyed these rural people and these stories. And then you 296 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: told me stories about Charlie and Louis Dell and and 297 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: we we You did take me to a bowshoot out 298 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: at their house when they had a catfish fry and 299 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: a bow shoot in a mule ride one time. Now 300 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: that was when you were an adulto, not with Louis 301 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: del Yeah. Yeah, it just so I enjoyed going back 302 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: to where I'm from and minding out these stories for 303 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: these guys. So no, and I'm very interested in Like 304 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: I thought it was great last time when Brent was like, no, 305 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: I'm not endeared to these guys. Um, that's why I 306 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: have you here. I don't have you. I don't have 307 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: you here too. You know, tell me something I want 308 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: to hear, um. But I think it would be good 309 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: to have a discussion about the different components of it, 310 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: because I think sometimes it's easy to hear one well 311 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: I don't think this. I know this, and I'm not 312 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: saying that's the case here, but a lot of times 313 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: inside of a robust story, people get you can get 314 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: hung up on one thing and you hear that throughout 315 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: the whole thing, when maybe that's not even exactly what 316 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: you're even talking about. Do you understand what I'm saying? 317 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: And inside of this series, I tried to make a 318 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: distinction between two different things. We use the words differently, 319 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: but poachers and then this outlaw archetype. You know, so 320 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: there's a there's a difference, Like I don't I'm not 321 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: endeared to poaching at all. Yeah, I mean, like, that's 322 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: that's not what this is about. It was more about 323 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: why an endearment to an outlaw archetype, which in my 324 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: opinion is an undeniable thing that's inside of our culture, 325 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that every single person responds to that 326 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: the same way. So I just want to yeah, so 327 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: it's like not everybody's Yeah, there might be something inside 328 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: of someone that really responds to that, and maybe less 329 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: than something else, but pretty much undeniable that in our culture, 330 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: that that is something that's happening. How do we start this? 331 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: I sent a message to Clay and said Part three 332 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: was fire fire Fire with a side of fire fire 333 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: fire and that It's like I felt like I was 334 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: watching the c s I on on on podcasts, But 335 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 1: what a fascinating, fascinating, fascinating story. It always amazes me 336 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: that that these kind of stories happen and nobody really 337 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: knows about it. You know, who whatever known about Louis 338 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: Dale and Charlie Edwards and the game and fish staying 339 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: operation that was going on with them. I love that 340 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 1: someone reached out to you and said, listen, I got 341 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: a little insider information for you that that was that 342 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 1: was pretty cool. But just to listen to him talk 343 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,719 Speaker 1: about his interactions with Louis Dale, I mean it was 344 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: it was clear that that I love the relational aspect 345 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 1: of Louis Dale. I mean, even even with someone like that, 346 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: he he legitimately just wanted to help this guy. You know, 347 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: there's a side of I've met guys like Louis Dale, 348 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: and there's a side of that wants that they want 349 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: to take you under their wing. And at the same 350 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: I knew a guy in the construction business that that 351 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: that kind of took me under his wing when I 352 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: when I had a construction company, and uh, I knew 353 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: I didn't want to necessarily be like him, but I 354 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: appreciated what he had to offer me. And I think 355 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that that's part of the 356 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: thing that they appreciated about Louis Delle is his his 357 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: care and consideration and his his taking people under his wing. 358 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: I mean, he was he was a he was an 359 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: essence of provider for the for a lot of people 360 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: in some way or another. But I thought, I thought 361 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: this last part of the podcast was really really fascinating 362 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: to hear um. I forgot what's the gentleman's name us, Yeah, 363 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: rust Um talk about his interactions with them, and and 364 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 1: also the game and fishes desire to just really they 365 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: really wanted to catch them red handed with something that 366 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: just couldn't seem to to do it. Clearly something was 367 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: going on there that that there were kind of protected 368 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: somehow from from that ever happening. Well, it was to 369 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: me it was so interesting talking to Russ because there 370 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: was actually another story that was told about a totally 371 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: different story of them and an undercover guy that Louis 372 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: Dell took and it we know there was multiple stings 373 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: and so I only talked to one guy. So this 374 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: this you know, happened according to the family, Louis Dell 375 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: took a guy and he called up a gobbler for 376 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: the guy before a season, and the guy wouldn't shoot it, 377 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, he made in Louis Dell's mind, 378 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: made an excuse why he wouldn't shoot it, and that 379 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: all of a sudden was a red flag that this guy, 380 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: you know, all the different circumstances that surrounded it. And 381 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: Louis Dell came out of that one confident that he 382 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: had entertained an undercover officer. And uh, and then in 383 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: this situation with Russ, you know, clearly he was tipped 384 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: off by someone on the inside about it, which was 385 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: it was reason to believe, but he also came out 386 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: of it apparently extremely confident that Russ was an undercover agent, 387 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: because he he told that to Andy just so strongly, 388 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: just like, yeah, for sure this guy was another coover agent. 389 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: And the way that I thought about it is you 390 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: only get so many strikes at somebody. I mean, it's 391 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: just like, do they just keep sending the guy from 392 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: another state. I'm from Kentucky in March, where you only 393 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: get so many strikes at these guys and pretty soon 394 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: you just run out of options. And what Russ said though, 395 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: was so valuable. I felt like when he said, how 396 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: hard is it to to to not be able to 397 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 1: catch a a guy that's got so much land and 398 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: got and wardens with so many limitations, And basically he 399 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: said off air, he said, guys like that are almost 400 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: impossible to catch. I mean, he just said, he just 401 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: straight up said, you just almost can't catch these guys, 402 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: and so you get a couple of couple of shots. 403 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: You know. The thing that that hit me in a 404 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: little hesitant to say it because I really respect this 405 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: Russ and I really feel like he's probably top echelon. 406 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you couldn't have gotten a better guy, So 407 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: I'm not taken away from his professionalism. But undercover on 408 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: a Turkish thing, you're probably okay. But undercover in another 409 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: situation you get killed. So if you contact me and go, 410 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: you won't go undercover. I'm gonna go. Who knows about this? 411 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: You know? If I go, you and I are the 412 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: only two that know about it. Your wife doesn't know 413 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: about it. My wife doesn't know about it. So probably 414 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: because it was a Turkey operation, it was handled a 415 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: little too loosely, I would say, because that should have 416 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: never gotten out. See I have a feeling that that's 417 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: just the structure of because see they would have to 418 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: let the game and fish know, they would have to 419 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: let other people in enforcement. No, I was thinking about 420 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: it because what happens if Russ Arthur is out with 421 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: Louis Dell and get stuffed by the game warden, or 422 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: if the other one other person he knows something happens 423 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: to him and he dies and Russ Arthur's out there 424 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: doing illegal stuff and no one knows but him and 425 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: this other you know, the like say a person has 426 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: a heart at that say the other person he knows 427 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:46,959 Speaker 1: has a heart attack. Like if it's you and one 428 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: other person that knows and that person has a heart attack, 429 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: this could be a movie. But it is a movie. 430 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: I mean it's there's a couple of different like where 431 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: it's an undercover sting. They're trying to keep it tight. 432 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: Two people know. One guy dies, so the other guy 433 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: is out, yes, and no one knows it sanction. Oh 434 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: you didn't think this through, Gary? Did you understand what 435 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: she just said? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Well I don't buy 436 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: any of that. I mean, you know, I can tell 437 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 1: you what happens. Yeah, here's our man. That's you. What 438 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: I wanted to hear, you go to jail. So that's 439 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: what I did. When you're out with the folks and 440 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: you're you're playing the game, and I'm using air quotes 441 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: for game because it's not a game. Yeah, you're literally 442 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 1: putting your life on the line for your paycheck, and 443 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: what happens when you go In my case, it was 444 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: to tell us what you did because people wouldn't know 445 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: is he allowed to do that? Well, I can tell 446 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: this has all been adjudicated, and it's been real nervous 447 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: about all the people involved in this post A long 448 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: time ago. But I was in a in a place 449 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: in South Arkansas, in a bar. We were in there 450 00:27:54,760 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: buying drugs and the local place didn't ye aren't just 451 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: I can tell you my name. My name was James 452 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: Jay David Miller. I've got an Arkansas driver's license at 453 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: home that has its own number and law enforcement. We 454 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: were in this place that's known to be selling drugs 455 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: and that's that's why I was in there. Me and 456 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: another agent were in there and we were working and 457 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: then the local police comes in and they they running 458 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: folks out left and right, and people are getting arrested, 459 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: and we fell right in there with the rest of them. 460 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: So and you don't tell anybody, Hey, you don't arrest me. 461 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: You know, I'm really I'm really a policeman. Now, you 462 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: don't do that. You just go with the flow, is yeah, 463 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: and when it's all over with you because they're not 464 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: gonna get the right guy anyway. So but that that's 465 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: that's what happens. That's what you do. And that's that's 466 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: exactly what Russ would have done the local game warden 467 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: unless he walked up, you know, and recognized him, like us, 468 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: what are you doing here? Why don't you know those guys? 469 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: And out you know it was But but that's that 470 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: happening to him, somebody, no one and and talking when 471 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: they shouldn't have talked. Is the very thing that the 472 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: reason why nobody knew that we were working in that 473 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: in that bar, it's because loose lips sink ships. That's 474 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: that's the old saying, you know, General War two. So 475 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: you you and I'm not saying I disagreed with him, 476 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: I'm just saying so you obviously, well even Russ said it. 477 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: He said the structure of the Forest Service came back 478 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: to bite him. Yeah, that's what he said. And he 479 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: actually went into a lot of detail with me about 480 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: the structure of the Forest Service today and how it's 481 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: much different like basically back then there was a lot 482 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: of room for He went into a lot of detail 483 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: that was was basically was like most of the stuff 484 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: these days is now all self contained. It's kind of 485 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: operates autonomously without it's all on the need to know basis, 486 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: and that that's the way that we we did it 487 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: in the drug culture and the drug enforcement was we 488 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: would talk. Normally, the prosecutor in the district would be 489 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: the only person that knew that we were in there working, 490 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: and it would usually be at the request of them 491 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: that we were there. Anyway, did Rust say that only 492 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: four or five people knew though? Didn't he save that 493 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: on the podcast? Well, I don't remember how many he 494 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: said new he said very few. You're like a handful 495 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: of the way I took it, And he may have 496 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: said that it wasn't very many. What do you think 497 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: of the sting operation part? I mean, not not dissect 498 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: and how they did, but just it was it he 499 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: called him, yeah, he called him yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, 500 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: and uh had it not been for the person that 501 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: they gave him the warning, I think they would have 502 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: got him even more so. So, I mean he he 503 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: was caught and and his to his point about uh evading, 504 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: you know, most counties in Arkansas have two wildlife officers, 505 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: some of them even back then, only had one, and 506 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: some counties back then didn't have any. So you have 507 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: one wildlife officer spread thin, you know, between two counties, 508 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: and he's got you know, the Edwards guys. They had 509 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: to look out for Mr Martin. Mr Martin had to 510 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: look out for everybody. It's a lot easier for them 511 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: to do what they did. And because they did not, 512 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: because he didn't catch him, didn't make him not a 513 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: good game boarden. One of the I think a really 514 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,719 Speaker 1: interesting thing to that point is the idea that uh, 515 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: their their community connections were not happenstance part of this. 516 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: But it seems like if you keep running back to it, 517 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: it's like it's not that nobody knew, it's that they're 518 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: they're standing in the community and people's fondness for them 519 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: kept protecting them. If you think about like, there are 520 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: plenty of poachers to get caught all the time, and 521 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: they're usually pretty. There's there are scoundrels. You know, they're 522 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: they're not they're not upstanding citizens or whatever in these 523 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: other aspects of their lives. But the reason this is 524 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: so unique is probably the reason that it's so unique. 525 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: I cannot argue with that, you know what I mean, 526 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: Like it's it's it's it's not it's not that they 527 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: were great uh ativating the law in a in a 528 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: in a vacuum. It's that these these facets of their 529 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: life work together too continually pull them out of the fire. 530 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: And I know, and I when I was thinking about 531 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: it this last podcast, I was thinking that all that 532 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: you know, they if they've been one out and killed 533 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: three turkeys or whatever the limit was back then, and 534 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: those other twenty thirty or forty or however many it's 535 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: supposed to be. If they would have took that many 536 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: kids out and let them kill their first turkey, how 537 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: much we wouldn't be having this podcast today, will be 538 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: talking about some criminal. These guys would be beyond a pedestal, 539 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: beyond anything we could see, because that that would have 540 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: that would have endeared me to them. So that that 541 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: was that was my only my biggest takeaway and like, 542 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: and I want to reiterate, I'm not saying these guys 543 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: are bad people there. They can't. If Gary Newcom thinks 544 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: of them, then I've got to because I respect him 545 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: that much. You not so much, but Gary. Yeah, But 546 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just saying that there was a lot 547 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: of what's the what's theyll saying one one mess up 548 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: will take away a whole bunch of ada boys, and 549 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: that just I couldn't be endeared to it. That was 550 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: just my take on it. When when I listened to 551 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: that render after the first episode, I wondered if your 552 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: experience and law enforcement in some of the conversations we 553 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: had had helped to inform your understanding of that dog story. 554 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well it's just I can. To me, that 555 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: was a no brainer. There's there's no way I love 556 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,919 Speaker 1: that coon dog in my house. My wife would give 557 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: one of her kidneys in both of mine for it. 558 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: And I love that dog, but there's no way I 559 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: would put that dog in front of your lot or 560 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: somebody I don't even know. Well, so, like in in 561 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: my brain, I hear that anecdote and I go, that's 562 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: a funny anecdote. But I've never been on the receiving 563 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 1: like in a legitimate position where like, am I gonna 564 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: get killed right now? Like? Does this guy really mean 565 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: that he'll shoot me if I shoot his dog? Takes 566 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: somebody at your word when it comes to that, So 567 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: you know, it's a. It's a. It's a. It's really a. 568 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: To me, it's black and white. Yeah, that's it's not right, 569 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: that's wrong. It's the wrong way to look at it. 570 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: And I will go so far as to I don't 571 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: want to upset anyone in the room or anybody that's 572 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: been on this podcast before, but those guys were allly 573 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: successful doing that because people didn't talk about it or 574 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: they wouldn't talk about it, and if they had, you know, 575 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: the way I look at it, in the way the 576 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: law looks at it. If you if you witness something, 577 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: witness them do something wrong, and you don't talk about 578 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: it and you don't report it, well then you're just 579 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: as culpable as they are in some form, you know. 580 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: I just think it was going back to the reason 581 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: why we did this, because it certainly would be maybe 582 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: unusual inside the outdoor space to talk about outlaws, poachers 583 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: and put any kind of positive light on them. And 584 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: I'll tell you the reason I did it is because 585 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: the real world of my like, I wanted to explore 586 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: this thing that I experienced, which was, wait a minute, 587 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: we liked these guys, but their notorious turkey outlaws. And 588 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: then to hear Russ say that this is very common 589 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: and man, hey all foreshadow, we're probably gonna have us 590 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 1: back on because he's got some stories. Man, And and 591 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 1: he did. Y'all think it was wild? What the list 592 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: of things he pulled out of the air about the 593 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: type of people that these would be. He he intentionally, 594 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: he told me, he said, Clay, I did not listen 595 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: to these podcasts before, he said, I didn't want to 596 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: be fed any kind of narrative about who these guys were. 597 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: And so, I mean, these would have been one of 598 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if hundreds, probably not hundreds, 599 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: but of undercover operations. So like, it's not like these 600 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: guys even would have stood out much to him. Probably 601 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 1: inside of his career, there has just been some guys 602 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: that he worked, you know, So it's not like he 603 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 1: knew them. He was just involved in their life for 604 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: about a month. And then for him to say what 605 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,839 Speaker 1: he said and then at the end him saying like 606 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: this is a Southern phenomena, which he and you know, 607 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: there's only so much you can do in a twenty 608 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: minute conference, Like I talked to russall Arthur for two hours, solid, 609 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: NonStop action packed two hours. Y'all heard twenty two minutes 610 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: of it. And what he said was that this thing 611 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: is a phenomena of the Southern United States. And it's 612 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: not that there aren't there's poachers everywhere, so it's not 613 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: to say that poaching only happens here, but this these 614 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: deeply entrenched families and they have a lot of similarities 615 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: to the situation. We're talking about. People that live of 616 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: and way back in the in some area. They usually 617 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: have a very tight geographic area that they're working, they've 618 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 1: been there for a long time, a lot of community 619 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: support um and and I just thought that was so 620 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: interesting because I was a part of that, Like I 621 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: was in that community, and so it's like, I want 622 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: to talk about this. I think it's interesting that you're 623 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: saying that as well as if if you combine it 624 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: with what Daniel talked about inside of inside of that, 625 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: because if you look at the South, the South has 626 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: a long history of being the inferior to the North 627 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: inside as as a function of its identity. Um, if 628 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: you look at in even as early as like the 629 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, you'll see that all of the people, the writers, 630 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: the intellectuals of the day, the influencers of that day, 631 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: would talk about the South as like the other and 632 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: they even had other names for the South. And this 633 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: is pre Civil War, this is this was like a beginning. 634 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: So there was a sense of inferiority. And I think 635 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: that that kind of connects a little bit to what 636 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: Daniel was talking about with the outlaw. And even like 637 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: you you play a clip of The Godfather and there's 638 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: this there's a but there was a sense of we 639 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: have to pursue justice on our own because we are 640 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: on the outs of society. In the instance of the Godfather, 641 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: you're talking about a family that would be newly migrated 642 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: to this nation. In the instance of the South, you're 643 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: talking about people who are separated for all sorts of 644 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: reasons and perceive themselves as inferior. And if that's a 645 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: Southern phenomenon, that that is interesting to me. How it 646 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:46,919 Speaker 1: goes along with the that that theoretical belief that your 647 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: outlaws exist when people don't trust the authority structures in place, 648 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: and a lot of times you don't trust because you 649 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: feel on the outskirts of Yeah. So the genesis of 650 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: like figuring out how to tell this story came on 651 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: a road trip, right, and you were just sort of 652 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: talking about this story that you wanted to tell, talking 653 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: on the phone with mob buddy. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, 654 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,879 Speaker 1: And he was telling for whatever reason that Louisville came 655 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: up like just naturally on the phone, and then you 656 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: told me a little bit about the story. And we're saying, like, man, 657 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: I want to tell this story about how do we 658 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 1: get there? We just started kicking around ideas and I 659 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: was really enamored by the nuance of the story, the 660 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: idea that like, we we have these people in our lives. 661 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: I can think of somebody in a totally different sphere, 662 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: but like really endeared to them, they're really good to 663 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: us or whatever, and also have this part of their 664 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: being that you don't like. And so like in the 665 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: like um popular site guys today, uh, not just with 666 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: people but all things, we wanted to distill it down 667 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: to a binary operation good or bad, black or white. UM, 668 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,279 Speaker 1: And I thought it would be really interesting to take 669 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: a look at it from a perspective of like I 670 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: just just basically like a peek behind the curtain. I 671 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 1: really like these guys, and I really don't like this thing. 672 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: What's that about? Right? And I think like that the 673 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: aspect of their personalities, that outlaw aspect that you like, 674 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: is really interesting and nuanced because in this case it 675 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: manifests in a way that is abhorrent, which is poaching. Like, uh, my, 676 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: my dad brought up I was talking to him about 677 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,399 Speaker 1: the podcast, and he brought up the irony of doing 678 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 1: a podcast series about turkeys and how they're all disappearing 679 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: and how your kids aren't going to get latched on 680 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: because the turkeys aren't here, and then following it up 681 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 1: with like this podcast about guys who are killing too 682 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: many turkeys. So um, but in this case, the outlaw 683 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: predilection manifests in a very negative way. But um. Talking 684 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 1: about Brooks Blevins and the history of the Ozarks, I'm 685 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: reading the third installment of it that now. And one 686 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: of the things that he touches on is the s 687 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: Forest Service erecting watch towers for wildfires. Right, well, one 688 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: of the main reasons that they did that was to 689 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: prevent locals from doing controlled burns on their lands, and 690 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: people continue to do it even after they outlawed it. 691 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: So they erected these things to watch for it and 692 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: basically knock on their neighbors. Well, history has looked back 693 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 1: on that and said controlled burns are really good and 694 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: they actually helped prevent forest fires, and so that outlaw 695 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: manifestation was right. And so like, what do you do 696 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 1: with this thing that like is endearing, but like sometimes 697 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 1: it has really negative and bad consequences and sometimes in 698 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 1: the course of time it's proven to be correct. You know, 699 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: what do you do with that? That's an interesting tension 700 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: that you just have to kind of sit with. And 701 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 1: that's kind of what we were getting that with the 702 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 1: conversation with Daniel Route, is that the archetype of the 703 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: outlaw is very valuable. Yeah, and there's artifacts of it 704 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: inside of all of our lives. Like, you know, we 705 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: were joking about our neighbor down here being a tomato 706 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 1: plant outlaw because because he does he does stuff a 707 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: little different than other people, and so it's like and 708 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,919 Speaker 1: and and it's like, yeah, he's he's he's a bad guy. 709 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 1: He's doing it different, he's pioneering a new way to 710 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: do it. It's like that is a that is a 711 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 1: Western culture thing with where we hat tip to the 712 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: guy that's outside the systems calls the system out. And 713 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: so the fact that again, if Louis l and Charlie 714 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: had just been poachers, I wouldn't be that interested in them. 715 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: It wasn't it's that, it's that they were outlaws, like 716 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,879 Speaker 1: that that was the idea that they had. They they 717 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,760 Speaker 1: showed that in the way that they just like everything 718 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: that they did, like they and and and I think 719 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 1: there's a nuance thing because, like you said, like so 720 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: much of what they did, like I don't condone fighting, 721 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,879 Speaker 1: I don't condone making the legal moon shot. I don't 722 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 1: condone all this stuff. I think it's interesting. It's not 723 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: just that they're outlaws though, right, it's the enigma of 724 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: like everybody has so many good things. They paid off 725 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: the farm, they helped with my medical bills, they whatever, 726 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,279 Speaker 1: and their outlaws, right, just a straight up outlaw. You know, 727 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,959 Speaker 1: you can think of instances of people in the wild 728 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,320 Speaker 1: West where guy just goes from town to town murdering people. 729 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 1: That's I don't find that endearing. But like the guy 730 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,040 Speaker 1: who sees injustice and is willing to trespass the the 731 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,240 Speaker 1: balunds of the law in order to bring that into 732 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 1: alignment is fascinating. The guy who's sort of doing good. 733 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 1: It's in the context of like poaching that you go, So, 734 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 1: so are you saying poaching is okay? Is that? Were 735 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,839 Speaker 1: they doing the right thing there? Right? Yeah? They were 736 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 1: not doing the right thing. But and I think that's 737 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: the whole thing that you said in our initial conversation 738 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: in the truck, is that it's like Sue, it would 739 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: be super nuanced. Yeah, so like, yeah, you could go, oh, 740 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 1: they made a podcast and they're soft on poaching. If 741 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:05,400 Speaker 1: you say that, you're idiot. Go ahead, you just didn't listen. 742 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: You didn't go listen to someone else's podcast. Um, it's 743 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: it's it's it's nuanced, and it's deep and it's and 744 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 1: this is this is what I was gonna say a 745 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 1: minute ago. There's something inside of it about personal relationship 746 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: with someone. Because I promise you if this was a 747 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: story about some guys from Alabama that I didn't know, 748 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 1: I wasn't connect to that community, I didn't I would 749 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: probably just be like what a bunch of thugs. Well, 750 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 1: I can I can tell you from firsthand. I didn't 751 00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,279 Speaker 1: know these guys. So when you talk, I'm like, man, 752 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,799 Speaker 1: I like these guys. And then when Brent talks, I'm like, man, 753 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,279 Speaker 1: I don't know about these guys, Like I don't have 754 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,399 Speaker 1: anything personally invested. But there's something about And again I'm 755 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: not saying it's right. I'm not what I said on 756 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: the podcast that it probably makes me a hypocrite. So 757 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 1: like on the record, like I realized, but there is 758 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: something about knowing someone that makes you more compassion and 759 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,399 Speaker 1: Russ said it. You know, Russ actually scripted out real well. 760 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 1: He said, if you know these people in your community 761 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 1: that are generous and compelling people, and you like them like, 762 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: you don't want to get them in trouble. In these 763 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 1: tight knit communities function off of personal relationships. I mean, 764 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 1: but before we made this podcast, I didn't think I 765 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 1: could get people to talk. I went to my dad 766 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,799 Speaker 1: and another friend and I said, would y'all talk about 767 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:33,680 Speaker 1: Charlie Louis Dell And basically, I mean without the families permission, 768 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,760 Speaker 1: I don't think Dad would even open his mouth about 769 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: any of this. Like but It's like I was like, no, 770 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,759 Speaker 1: they're okay with this, They said we could do this. 771 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 1: They like this. That's the only way that Like I 772 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,399 Speaker 1: had people that I interviewed, calling the family to make 773 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 1: sure that I was telling the truth. You know, just 774 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:57,399 Speaker 1: like like that personal relationship is super meaningful, and it's 775 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 1: just interesting how how that that personal connection could make 776 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: you see something not different because again we're not talking 777 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,840 Speaker 1: about where the poaching is right or wrong. We're just 778 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:13,399 Speaker 1: talking about it. Really it really shows the effect of 779 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 1: being that being cared for produces in someone, because I 780 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: think a large portion of the community there felt cared 781 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:30,399 Speaker 1: for by Louis like and because of that. I mean, 782 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: think about it in your marriage. If you love your wife, 783 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna overlook things. You know, you're gonna you're gonna 784 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,320 Speaker 1: overlook things because you love her and you care and 785 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,160 Speaker 1: and you see the side of her that makes that 786 00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,960 Speaker 1: other thing a moot point. And so I think in 787 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,840 Speaker 1: people's minds as they felt very cared for and that 788 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,839 Speaker 1: is just a natural response to that, to that expression 789 00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 1: to them. Well, also, the community was not reporting these 790 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: guys for killing too many turkeys. I don't I would 791 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: be willing to bet all the people that wouldn't snitch 792 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,399 Speaker 1: on them for that. If they drove by the house 793 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:11,960 Speaker 1: and they were beating the young un out there with 794 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: a stick, thea called some Well do you think dad, Well, 795 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 1: it's it's really too complicated for me. I like um 796 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: Rest's ability of mouth call, which is what I the 797 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: rest of this stuff to me. You know, you you 798 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:46,239 Speaker 1: can you can tell what you think. You can study this. 799 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 1: We don't really know why we like certain things, but 800 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 1: we like entertainment. I like Michael Jordan's he's different, he's special, 801 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,279 Speaker 1: He's worked hard. Jesse James, you know what I mean. 802 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,839 Speaker 1: I like to hear the stories entertaining Charlie and Louis. 803 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 1: There'll be a nice guys, man. Our whole community has 804 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,880 Speaker 1: made up a nice guys, but they were a little different. 805 00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 1: And um you can go anywhere you want and pick 806 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 1: one guy out of the community and you probably could 807 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:20,000 Speaker 1: make an interesting podcast out of it. You know, you 808 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:21,880 Speaker 1: look at we need to do that. We need to 809 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: just pick a guy. You probably could you look through 810 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,719 Speaker 1: history and Kick Carson and you know, Daniel Boone and 811 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,040 Speaker 1: you know, these guys made a name for themselves, but 812 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 1: there was probably a thousand other guys that were really 813 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:41,120 Speaker 1: vital to what happened. And you know, but you didn't 814 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,040 Speaker 1: have somebody, you know, so I don't know. There may 815 00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 1: have been somebody else down there and made a smashing 816 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,640 Speaker 1: turkeys more than they were, but they just didn't talk 817 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: about Jimmy Martin's what I said. Were Louis and Charlie 818 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,759 Speaker 1: like the most notorious guys you ever caught. And he 819 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,040 Speaker 1: just said or chased and he said, oh not really. 820 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,200 Speaker 1: I mean they weren't they they were they were they 821 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:09,000 Speaker 1: were Russ. Russ was just he was just like, oh yeah, Diamond, 822 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,319 Speaker 1: dozen guys like this. I mean he really said that. 823 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: You know, I didn't like them because they were Turkey Poacher. 824 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,879 Speaker 1: Had nothing to do with me liking those guys. I'm 825 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,279 Speaker 1: telling you I might be different. It had nothing to 826 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:22,879 Speaker 1: do with it. It. It was intriguing, you know, like 827 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,120 Speaker 1: if if you walked in the bank and you were 828 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:32,239 Speaker 1: involved in some criminal activity that everybody in Mina knew about, 829 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,160 Speaker 1: like the Mina connection deal. Yeah, I mean it was 830 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:37,759 Speaker 1: really I mean, you just wanted to sit down and 831 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,399 Speaker 1: talk to him maybe what happened, you know, I mean, 832 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,319 Speaker 1: it's just intriguing. But these were just good people that 833 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,239 Speaker 1: we liked. And every now and then it would come 834 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,160 Speaker 1: up that they were turkey poachers, you know, and you go, well, 835 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 1: they're good turkey hunters, you know. I mean, you didn't 836 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,680 Speaker 1: think of it as turkey poaching. You they were good hunters. 837 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,160 Speaker 1: And and you know, I don't know, it's you know, 838 00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,319 Speaker 1: maybe I'm a little too close to it, but um, 839 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,680 Speaker 1: I just think about people. I like heroes, man. I 840 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:08,600 Speaker 1: like Sergeant York. You know, I enjoy Bonnie and Clyde. 841 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,240 Speaker 1: I've watched that movie so many times. H Jesse James. 842 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I just like the tough guys. I like 843 00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,919 Speaker 1: to hear stories that happened at the bars in Oklahoma. 844 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,640 Speaker 1: Where did you like those stories? I did? And I think, yeah. 845 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,359 Speaker 1: I mean a buddy of mine walked in one day, 846 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,359 Speaker 1: pulls a shirt up. I might have told these guys 847 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,800 Speaker 1: about it, pulled his shirt up. I say, a buddy 848 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,719 Speaker 1: is acquaintance, how close worried? And he got he said 849 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,840 Speaker 1: look here one, two, three, four or five, six, seven, 850 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:39,560 Speaker 1: seven bullet holes in his chest. I mean, I like 851 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,400 Speaker 1: this guy, but because of the bullet holes and the 852 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:48,560 Speaker 1: stories that he had, I mean, you know, it's pretty cool. Entertaining, 853 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,719 Speaker 1: entertaining of of all the things, like I am never 854 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,920 Speaker 1: gonna tell much of a story on a on this 855 00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,200 Speaker 1: podcast that isn't entertaining, Like that's part of this thing, 856 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,680 Speaker 1: Like people don't listen to the Burgers podcast because their 857 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,000 Speaker 1: mama makes them, you know, like you're not going to 858 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:13,279 Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, not anymore. You know. The other thing 859 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,200 Speaker 1: about the off the list, if they had not been 860 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:20,480 Speaker 1: chased by the law so hard, you know, they would 861 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:22,719 Speaker 1: have just been There's I can name two or three 862 00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,320 Speaker 1: other guys in that community that killed lots of turkeys. 863 00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,799 Speaker 1: That's kind of what's interesting to me is in all 864 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,640 Speaker 1: these stories, it's like, wow, this is a lot of 865 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,319 Speaker 1: resources they kind of drew attention to because they drew 866 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:39,480 Speaker 1: attention to themselves. Yeah. I think so. Probably just flouting convention, 867 00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,200 Speaker 1: flouting though the law, showing up in front of the 868 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,439 Speaker 1: check station with your three birds unchecked. Yeah, that type 869 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,040 Speaker 1: of thing. Well, and you can't take out the human 870 00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:53,040 Speaker 1: component of it, of like Jimmy Martin saying his supervisor 871 00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:57,000 Speaker 1: wanted to catch these guys. Yeah, they're there there. I mean, 872 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 1: humans make decisions. It's not like just the government has 873 00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,400 Speaker 1: you know, drones out that they killed thirty six turkeys. 874 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,759 Speaker 1: They will now have an ndercover operator. No. I was like, 875 00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,560 Speaker 1: somebody heard that. I was like, these guys, are you 876 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:15,200 Speaker 1: know they deserve this in the community that maybe weren't 877 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,600 Speaker 1: thrown around as much, probably killing as many. There's something 878 00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,000 Speaker 1: somebody didn't like it, Yeah, or they would have never 879 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,160 Speaker 1: known about it. Yeah, because they wasn't talking that way 880 00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,800 Speaker 1: in front of Jimmy Martin. So somebody in the community 881 00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 1: thought what they were doing was no bueno enough that 882 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,920 Speaker 1: they talked to somebody about it. It kind of makes 883 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,840 Speaker 1: them an underdog when they say I'll give an you 884 00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:44,200 Speaker 1: a stake dinner. Who gets these people like it? It 885 00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,279 Speaker 1: makes you almost root for him. Yeah, I mean I 886 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,240 Speaker 1: feel like it's a terrible way because America also lives underdog. 887 00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,279 Speaker 1: I mean, at least and I don't think that would 888 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,000 Speaker 1: have been stuff that was known. You don't think so, No, 889 00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, But I mean, like now listening to 890 00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 1: the story, it is a It is another thing that 891 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 1: endears them, Like, all right, you got the whole force 892 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:06,920 Speaker 1: of the law breathing down your neck. Can you do it? 893 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,120 Speaker 1: Can you pull it out? You know? It's like that 894 00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,120 Speaker 1: when you watch the movies about these guys, and and 895 00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,200 Speaker 1: you find yourself just in your heart, not about louis 896 00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,279 Speaker 1: Dale and Charlie, but about outlaws rooting for them. Like 897 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,080 Speaker 1: when there's it's time, you know, the law gets close 898 00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:26,360 Speaker 1: to him and you're kind of wanting them to Britain, 899 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,280 Speaker 1: doesn't Gary does you kind of wanted to get away? 900 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: You want them to your And and of course it's 901 00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,319 Speaker 1: the directing, it's the producing, it's all that. But it's 902 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: Bunny and Claude. They were murderers and robbers. I ain't 903 00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,399 Speaker 1: seen the movie yet where I was cheering for them 904 00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:46,320 Speaker 1: to win, not wonder them. I'm always like, go police, amen. 905 00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,880 Speaker 1: And you know what, I didn't shoot. I've said this 906 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,880 Speaker 1: before in this podcast. I did not cheer for these guys. 907 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:58,360 Speaker 1: You know, if I don't know, you know when you 908 00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,080 Speaker 1: turn on me and it's not gonna doing good. M 909 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:02,960 Speaker 1: you nobody already knew. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, 910 00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:04,640 Speaker 1: how are you gonna cat? You know? You you gotta 911 00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,680 Speaker 1: catch them, so calling the game and fish and going, 912 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:09,799 Speaker 1: hey man, these guys killed a couple of little little 913 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,680 Speaker 1: bird Well, forget it. You ain't gonna catch him on 914 00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:19,080 Speaker 1: a deal like that. Uh, but you know, they were 915 00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:22,439 Speaker 1: just good. They were just good guys. I think most 916 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:28,600 Speaker 1: people enjoyed being around and um, they loved the notoriety though, 917 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, and that's what Russ called ego, which 918 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:33,800 Speaker 1: I thought was good that he did. I mean, just 919 00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,440 Speaker 1: if we're being fair, I mean, you know, and when 920 00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:38,319 Speaker 1: I went to the family, I told him, I said, 921 00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell both sides of this story. So I 922 00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,040 Speaker 1: mean we we gave we gave him a lot of 923 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,480 Speaker 1: room to to tell the good parts of their story. 924 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,799 Speaker 1: And then I really liked that Russ just came in 925 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,960 Speaker 1: and said, these guys a lot of ego, which his 926 00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:56,560 Speaker 1: definition of ego was exactly what they all said Louisville did, 927 00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:58,960 Speaker 1: which was he wanted to be the guy that couldn't 928 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,279 Speaker 1: be caught. You know, it was a game to them. 929 00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:06,120 Speaker 1: That equals ego. You know, we all like to be good. 930 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:13,080 Speaker 1: It's something known for something. You know, fly fisherman, great teacher. 931 00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,319 Speaker 1: You know, all of us have something that we're a 932 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:20,080 Speaker 1: little better at than other people. Isaac tattoos, leg tattoos, Yeah, 933 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,480 Speaker 1: into a building or a room, you know, they had 934 00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,520 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I'm louis Dale, you know, I'm I'm 935 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,480 Speaker 1: I'm the best hunter in the county. I mean, it 936 00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:36,920 Speaker 1: was something to be proud of it, except it was 937 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:41,520 Speaker 1: illegal what he was doing anyway. Yeah, I mean, so 938 00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,440 Speaker 1: much of what all of us do is motivated by ego, Like, 939 00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:46,760 Speaker 1: so much of what I do is motivated by ego, 940 00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,799 Speaker 1: And on my best days, I recognize that and try 941 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,040 Speaker 1: not to be motivated by that. Did you think about 942 00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:54,600 Speaker 1: that when you get that cow faced drawn on there? 943 00:56:54,640 --> 00:57:02,160 Speaker 1: You gotta talk to John the Revelator about that. But like, 944 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,319 Speaker 1: you know, like we we like to be liked, we 945 00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,640 Speaker 1: like to be known, we like to be like, and 946 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,680 Speaker 1: and if that is our sole motivator, it can trend 947 00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:12,560 Speaker 1: towards negativity. But if we recognize it and sort of 948 00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:14,480 Speaker 1: react to it and say like, hey, maybe that's not 949 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:19,440 Speaker 1: totally healthy, Like that's when we're we're thriving as humans. Yeah. 950 00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:21,840 Speaker 1: So like when he said that, I was like, it 951 00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,520 Speaker 1: didn't feel like an insult to me. It felt like, yep, 952 00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,080 Speaker 1: I can identify with that. I can identify with sort 953 00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,200 Speaker 1: of getting caught up in uh when when we when 954 00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,240 Speaker 1: we get to drink in our own medicine or whatever, 955 00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:38,000 Speaker 1: it sends us maybe down a less healthy path. M h. Correct. 956 00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,880 Speaker 1: I still go back to just the idea of you 957 00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,840 Speaker 1: had to know in their mind they felt these this 958 00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,600 Speaker 1: sense of restrictions being put on them by game laws, 959 00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,480 Speaker 1: and I think they had to they had to justify 960 00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:55,520 Speaker 1: things in their minds. You know, I think about like 961 00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:59,720 Speaker 1: bonding Clyde. There's no justifying just murdering people. But when 962 00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,000 Speaker 1: it comes to like game laws and that kind of thing. 963 00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,560 Speaker 1: And I guarantee that if you had confronted them on 964 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,600 Speaker 1: on violent tendencies, they'd probably say, well, I ain't never 965 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,480 Speaker 1: done anything to anybody that they didn't didn't do to me. 966 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,240 Speaker 1: But when it came to poaching, I'm sure they in 967 00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:16,560 Speaker 1: their mind they thought, well, I'm not hurting anybody, and 968 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,760 Speaker 1: I'm actually helping people. And you know, Russ had a whole, 969 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:24,040 Speaker 1: a big part of what he talked about, and we 970 00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:26,960 Speaker 1: may talk about this more at some point, but just 971 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:32,520 Speaker 1: about the damage that's done by recreational poaching, and in 972 00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,120 Speaker 1: his mind, it all goes back to the opportunity lost 973 00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:40,240 Speaker 1: to other people, which is like entirely true. I was 974 00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:44,080 Speaker 1: saying a minute ago, and um, and so it's easy 975 00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,520 Speaker 1: to say, you know, well, nobody's getting hurt from this 976 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,240 Speaker 1: or that. But but if you if you have, if 977 00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:51,800 Speaker 1: you have a bigger picture of mine, you know, I 978 00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:57,200 Speaker 1: mean it's like incredibly it is incredibly detrimental taking away 979 00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,760 Speaker 1: and now in a time of great surplus, it's different. 980 00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:07,800 Speaker 1: It does feel different. I mean like in the time yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 981 00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,960 Speaker 1: and and uh but and what I'm saying is surplus 982 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,920 Speaker 1: of wildlife, you know, so like in a time. And 983 00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,160 Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting and I thought it tied 984 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,880 Speaker 1: back into the other turkey podcasts that most of this 985 00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:25,280 Speaker 1: went down during a massive blow up of turkeys in 986 00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:27,440 Speaker 1: this part of the world. And so I mean, like 987 00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,480 Speaker 1: that coincided. It's kind of interesting when you think about it, 988 00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:33,880 Speaker 1: because we talked about Will Primos, who built his business 989 00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,800 Speaker 1: and I and we made the connection that his the 990 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:42,040 Speaker 1: primost blowing up like it did corresponded with wild turkeys 991 00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:45,280 Speaker 1: blowing up, and uh, and so this was the same thing. 992 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,400 Speaker 1: I mean, they were kind of riding a wave. And 993 00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,480 Speaker 1: they weren't the only ones doing it. I mean they 994 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,120 Speaker 1: were you know, I told you I talked to a 995 00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:57,200 Speaker 1: guy meat eater that knew some people in in uh, 996 00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,440 Speaker 1: another state, in Missouri. Last time I was afraid the 997 01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,400 Speaker 1: same Missouri I don't know why. Um, I didn't want 998 01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,760 Speaker 1: to disclose too much. But yeah, anybody's done anything wrong 999 01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:12,480 Speaker 1: in Missourian. Yeah, that's what I heard. The guys that 1000 01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,520 Speaker 1: were killing turkeys for every year of their how old 1001 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:19,440 Speaker 1: they were killed turkeys up until they were forty, you know, 1002 01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:21,960 Speaker 1: kill that they try to kill as many turkeys in 1003 01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,600 Speaker 1: a year as their age and like that. You just 1004 01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:32,480 Speaker 1: couldn't do that today, I mean, job well, but then 1005 01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:35,800 Speaker 1: how detrimental that that would be. But it corresponded with 1006 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:43,480 Speaker 1: this surplus of animals, you know. Um, But no, I 1007 01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:48,120 Speaker 1: think deep down the story it was just a it's 1008 01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:51,480 Speaker 1: a good story. And you know what, we've got to 1009 01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:55,080 Speaker 1: believe that. We don't have to believe this. I'm not 1010 01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,040 Speaker 1: saying this is something you choose to believe or not. 1011 01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:00,120 Speaker 1: This is just the architecture of human life. It's that 1012 01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:04,720 Speaker 1: we we learned about the present by connecting the stuff 1013 01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,680 Speaker 1: from the past. It's a matter of fact. In uh, 1014 01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:13,720 Speaker 1: this book by Alphelia, the author Edward Edward O Wilson. 1015 01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:18,040 Speaker 1: E O. Wilson is talking about he's trying to He's 1016 01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:23,200 Speaker 1: talking about humans ability to of of memory, historical memory 1017 01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:28,560 Speaker 1: is unprecedented in the animal kingdom, and that's what it is, 1018 01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:32,080 Speaker 1: something that distinctly makes as human as an ability to 1019 01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:36,640 Speaker 1: remember back fifty years to an incident. And by all indications, 1020 01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:41,560 Speaker 1: there's no other animal that has that clear of a memory, 1021 01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,200 Speaker 1: or most animals don't live as long as humans. But 1022 01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:47,440 Speaker 1: he said the subject of greatest immediate interest is long 1023 01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,760 Speaker 1: term memory. We are essentially what he said, we are 1024 01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:57,880 Speaker 1: essentially what we remember or can remember at some time 1025 01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,280 Speaker 1: in the future. Literally what we're standing on right now. 1026 01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,400 Speaker 1: The platform of consciousness that we stand on is what 1027 01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:07,520 Speaker 1: we remember. Like, we don't know what's going to happen 1028 01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:11,120 Speaker 1: a minute from now. We we cannot forecast that very act, 1029 01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:15,600 Speaker 1: very clearly. And he said people build memory by linking 1030 01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:20,480 Speaker 1: new images and concept two old ones. In its size 1031 01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:23,600 Speaker 1: and the space it feels, the mind expands like a 1032 01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,400 Speaker 1: coral reef, adding new branches and cross ties out from 1033 01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,000 Speaker 1: the edge of those parts already established and anchored, while 1034 01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:35,200 Speaker 1: it's central body sets aside and coalesces. Point being, why 1035 01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:38,720 Speaker 1: would we tell a story that obviously we're saying is 1036 01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:43,400 Speaker 1: negative in some ways, but looking at it through any 1037 01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:46,400 Speaker 1: positive lens that we can pull from it, It's like 1038 01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,680 Speaker 1: we got to look back at our history to learn 1039 01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:52,800 Speaker 1: what we should do in the future. And and it 1040 01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:57,880 Speaker 1: is my that that's my my biggest hope inside of 1041 01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:01,280 Speaker 1: all this as we talk about coaching and the culture 1042 01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:06,400 Speaker 1: around hunting and protection of wildlife wild resources, is that 1043 01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,080 Speaker 1: this wouldn't happen again. I mean that that we would 1044 01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:13,640 Speaker 1: just say, hey, don't part part of my driving inside 1045 01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:15,600 Speaker 1: of this is where are we driven by things we 1046 01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:21,600 Speaker 1: don't understand? And if I we're back inside, if that 1047 01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:24,240 Speaker 1: happened today in the community I live in now, I 1048 01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:26,919 Speaker 1: would be like, wait a minute, I'm being in there 1049 01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,560 Speaker 1: to a guy that maybe yeah, I shouldn't be or 1050 01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:33,440 Speaker 1: there are you know however it played out and just 1051 01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,800 Speaker 1: like not to get caught in something I think, I 1052 01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,640 Speaker 1: think it's maybe important, you know, when this gets locked 1053 01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,760 Speaker 1: in the vault, nuclear fallout has happened. They dig out 1054 01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:45,600 Speaker 1: this episode to learn how to manage game species and 1055 01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:48,320 Speaker 1: not poach in the future. To talk about the North 1056 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:50,880 Speaker 1: American model of wildlife, and that is to say that 1057 01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:54,920 Speaker 1: the game is a collectively owned thing that needs to 1058 01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,840 Speaker 1: be managed at a community level so that all people 1059 01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,760 Speaker 1: have access and opportunity, as opposed to previous models in 1060 01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:06,240 Speaker 1: which um the aristocracy would fence off their land, manage 1061 01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,800 Speaker 1: their game, and get hunt and the proletariat would be 1062 01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,520 Speaker 1: able to do nothing. And so the problem with poaching 1063 01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:13,920 Speaker 1: is to say, no, I know better. I know you're 1064 01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:15,840 Speaker 1: telling me this is what we need for the herd health, 1065 01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:17,720 Speaker 1: but I know better and I'm going to take what 1066 01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,040 Speaker 1: I want. So when we distill it down, that's really 1067 01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:23,120 Speaker 1: the problem with poaching. And and that's the rub when 1068 01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,520 Speaker 1: you get into people like Charlie and Louisdell who are 1069 01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:27,480 Speaker 1: looking at the turkeys in their area and going like, 1070 01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:29,560 Speaker 1: we've got more than enough. This is not a problem. 1071 01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:33,520 Speaker 1: I got this like, and if they perceive the game 1072 01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:39,200 Speaker 1: laws as someone fence it off saying you can't, yeah, yeah, absolutely, 1073 01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:41,280 Speaker 1: And that's part of the that's it's not true, but 1074 01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,040 Speaker 1: it's part of the problem. Absolutely. The thing is the 1075 01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,120 Speaker 1: thing about this the system that we have is it's 1076 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:48,920 Speaker 1: not necessarily perfect, but it's the best system we've got. 1077 01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:51,919 Speaker 1: I've not seen a better system. Like, yeah, you can't 1078 01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,000 Speaker 1: kill as many turkeys as you used to be able to, 1079 01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:56,800 Speaker 1: but this is so that everyone can have an opportunity 1080 01:04:56,840 --> 01:04:59,720 Speaker 1: to kill a turkey or whatever. Hey, yeah, I've got 1081 01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:02,120 Speaker 1: a question for you. All, if this were made into 1082 01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:06,120 Speaker 1: a movie, who would be the star player, who would 1083 01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:09,280 Speaker 1: be the Tom selle Ach or who would act? Who 1084 01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:15,280 Speaker 1: would be the lead? Okay, I mean who would be 1085 01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:18,240 Speaker 1: the who would be the protagonist? Who would be the 1086 01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:22,160 Speaker 1: main guy, Louis Dale? Louis Dale, I say it would 1087 01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:26,200 Speaker 1: be Russ Oh, okay, that's who I say it would. 1088 01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I could go either way. But you know, 1089 01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:34,440 Speaker 1: that's what makes this story interesting is the law enforcement 1090 01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:36,600 Speaker 1: chasing these guys. If you didn't have that, it's not 1091 01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:40,360 Speaker 1: a movie. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, behind the scenes, 1092 01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:42,520 Speaker 1: you know, you're you're sitting it around the desk and 1093 01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,240 Speaker 1: you're going, Okay, here's you know, I really want to 1094 01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:48,000 Speaker 1: see Billy Bob Thornton in this movie. You'd be a 1095 01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,640 Speaker 1: good chip. I'd like Kevin Costar to play rest. It 1096 01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:58,080 Speaker 1: would be good. Yeah. I could be involved in the casting. WHOA, 1097 01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:02,080 Speaker 1: That is a bombshell. If you know what every one 1098 01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:04,520 Speaker 1: of your favorite scenes is going to be is when 1099 01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:09,080 Speaker 1: they get caught when they're young and the game warden goes, hey, 1100 01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:10,960 Speaker 1: would you give me a ride back to my truck? 1101 01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:15,600 Speaker 1: And yeah, and then they take off down that skid 1102 01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:19,160 Speaker 1: trail that that brings me back to something I wanted 1103 01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:21,160 Speaker 1: to say about russ earlier. One of the things that 1104 01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:24,000 Speaker 1: I loved about us. Wait a minute, hold on, I 1105 01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:27,520 Speaker 1: say one more thing, and that's why you're all hypocrites 1106 01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:29,320 Speaker 1: if you didn't like this, because that would be your 1107 01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:37,560 Speaker 1: favorite scene. Go ahead, russ I. One one reason that 1108 01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:39,680 Speaker 1: I loved him on the top level was that it 1109 01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:43,600 Speaker 1: validated the story. When you go into this, it can 1110 01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,160 Speaker 1: be easy to be like, oh, yeah, it's like every 1111 01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:49,200 Speaker 1: all these stories get inflated or whatever over time, because 1112 01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:51,560 Speaker 1: it's a community, Like you want your community to have 1113 01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:53,600 Speaker 1: this thing, and then to go to this guy who 1114 01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:55,680 Speaker 1: hasn't listened to it, who hasn't been there, only spent 1115 01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:58,520 Speaker 1: a month there, and then like basically corroborates it overall. 1116 01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:01,840 Speaker 1: It corroborates the story worries. But also I feel like 1117 01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:04,720 Speaker 1: what I really liked was that he mitigates the stories 1118 01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:07,320 Speaker 1: in which, like the beginning narrative is like they never 1119 01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:10,960 Speaker 1: got caught, and then as you like pars it out, 1120 01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:12,640 Speaker 1: it's like, well they got caught when they were young, 1121 01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:14,640 Speaker 1: Well there was that one time that they and then 1122 01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:16,240 Speaker 1: he's like, well we had them on a few things. 1123 01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,680 Speaker 1: But it just really didn't warrant breaking cover or whatever. 1124 01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,360 Speaker 1: And so all of these things together come together to 1125 01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:26,880 Speaker 1: paint a more organic picture of a human being as 1126 01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,520 Speaker 1: opposed to like a Robin Hood style legend or whatever. 1127 01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,440 Speaker 1: That was one thing that I really liked about Russ's 1128 01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, even Russ's thing about um, he could have 1129 01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:44,840 Speaker 1: caught him, but they didn't. It's like they didn't do it. Yep, 1130 01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:48,400 Speaker 1: they didn't get caught. They still didn't. They didn't get caught. 1131 01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:52,000 Speaker 1: I mean, now in Brent's I understand, yes, they did 1132 01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:54,840 Speaker 1: get caught, they just didn't get prosecuted. They didn't get prosecuted. 1133 01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:58,240 Speaker 1: You know, they lost, is what you're saying. They didn't 1134 01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:00,640 Speaker 1: win the game. They did not win the game. Um, 1135 01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:02,760 Speaker 1: I don't think that would go down like that today. 1136 01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:06,800 Speaker 1: I think they would, they would prosecute. I don't know 1137 01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:10,439 Speaker 1: the circumstances of that, but the mitigating factors that tell 1138 01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:15,120 Speaker 1: me that the reason they didn't because they we're planning 1139 01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,400 Speaker 1: to do it again. They were gonna send somebody else 1140 01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:20,000 Speaker 1: or yeah, to get something bigger. Yeah. It wasn't like 1141 01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:23,360 Speaker 1: all right, well just forget it, let's go home. No, 1142 01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:25,680 Speaker 1: there was something else happened there and that may have 1143 01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:28,080 Speaker 1: been the first one. It could have been, you know 1144 01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:30,960 Speaker 1: what I mean, because they were there were multiple attempts. 1145 01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,120 Speaker 1: But also wouldn't you agree that there would kind of 1146 01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:37,559 Speaker 1: be a shelf life like you can't just like eventually 1147 01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,040 Speaker 1: you'd be like, Okay, I wonder what guy is going 1148 01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:42,519 Speaker 1: to show up this year and once with me? Yeah, 1149 01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:45,639 Speaker 1: And that's hard, man, that is so that is so hard. 1150 01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:49,400 Speaker 1: It's not. It's different than the drug culture. Becausing the 1151 01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:53,200 Speaker 1: drug culture. They're either addicted to the money or they're 1152 01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:55,840 Speaker 1: addicted to the drugs, and one of the others going 1153 01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,639 Speaker 1: to get them. It always does. This is a totally 1154 01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:03,680 Speaker 1: different drug, a totally different addiction of being able to 1155 01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:05,600 Speaker 1: sneak back into the house with a turkey before the 1156 01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:10,479 Speaker 1: season or or whatever. So it's that makes it twice 1157 01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,160 Speaker 1: or ten times. It's hard to get somebody doing that 1158 01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:16,679 Speaker 1: because they while they feel the need because it's spring 1159 01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:19,120 Speaker 1: time and turkeys are gobbling, they need to go kill one. 1160 01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:24,360 Speaker 1: It's not going to physically keep them from functioning if 1161 01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:29,559 Speaker 1: they don't because they think the police are getting close. 1162 01:09:30,400 --> 01:09:33,240 Speaker 1: We've had I had an undercover operation one time where 1163 01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:35,960 Speaker 1: I sent a guy in with a wire and he 1164 01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:37,840 Speaker 1: walked up to the door and knocked on the door, 1165 01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:39,599 Speaker 1: and the guy comes to the door and he calls 1166 01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:43,639 Speaker 1: him by name, and he says, Bob, I know you're 1167 01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:47,400 Speaker 1: working for the police. And Bob, not his real name, 1168 01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:49,840 Speaker 1: pulls a hundred dollar bill out of his pocket and 1169 01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:52,240 Speaker 1: you can hear the guy say, but I see you've 1170 01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:54,880 Speaker 1: got that money in your hand, and I'm gonna sell 1171 01:09:54,880 --> 01:10:02,760 Speaker 1: it to you. And he did, Wow, Uh, I know 1172 01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:05,400 Speaker 1: you're working for the police, but I said, you get 1173 01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:07,120 Speaker 1: that money, so almost sell it to you anyway, and 1174 01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:10,040 Speaker 1: he did and he went to prison. Well, yeah, I mean, 1175 01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:14,080 Speaker 1: I suppose that's another interesting, uh factor that rest brings 1176 01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:17,240 Speaker 1: up is there's no like commercial side to it, Like 1177 01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:19,639 Speaker 1: there's no walking up to these guys and pulling out 1178 01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,559 Speaker 1: a hundred dollar bill and saying, kill me a turkey, 1179 01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,519 Speaker 1: take me to kill. That makes it also harder. It 1180 01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:28,920 Speaker 1: has to be off of that personal connection. And we 1181 01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:31,080 Speaker 1: could have a whole podcast just talking to Brand about 1182 01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:35,160 Speaker 1: cover work. That's why, and that's what people are gonna want. 1183 01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:36,760 Speaker 1: They're gonna be why were you all talking about all 1184 01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:38,280 Speaker 1: that sly stuff when you could have talked to Brand 1185 01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:41,759 Speaker 1: about undercover? Tell us your best undercover story brand I can't. 1186 01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:46,080 Speaker 1: Oh you can't. What do you mean? I can't tell 1187 01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:52,479 Speaker 1: you about it? It's happening right now. There's still working 1188 01:10:52,479 --> 01:10:55,920 Speaker 1: out protective services. Hey didn't surprise you that Russ was 1189 01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:59,040 Speaker 1: able to talk to me. No, it's something that had 1190 01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:01,920 Speaker 1: been adjudicated and he's retired, so I mean it wasn't 1191 01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:08,200 Speaker 1: owngoing operation. Those guys are you know, passed away? So well, 1192 01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:11,639 Speaker 1: what I what I asked him as I as I said, 1193 01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:16,559 Speaker 1: why would because he got clearance from where he needed 1194 01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:19,320 Speaker 1: to get clearance before he talked to me, and they 1195 01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:23,840 Speaker 1: were like pretty much whatever, And and I was trying 1196 01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:26,320 Speaker 1: to figure out how that would be good for the 1197 01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:30,120 Speaker 1: whole system, for the whole world to know that there 1198 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:33,719 Speaker 1: are undercover agents out there that are working well because 1199 01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:36,920 Speaker 1: it and what his I'll tell you his response is 1200 01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:39,599 Speaker 1: he said, Clay, he said, us talking about what happened 1201 01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:43,160 Speaker 1: thirty years ago is irrelevant at today because he said, 1202 01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:46,320 Speaker 1: the tactics that we use back then are not even 1203 01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:48,880 Speaker 1: in the same ballpark. Basically, he said, today you've got 1204 01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:52,160 Speaker 1: to have a digital history. Like if I come to 1205 01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:54,679 Speaker 1: you and say my name is Bill Jones, I'm from Tennessee, 1206 01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:58,240 Speaker 1: I'm a bricklayer. Like you gotta have a Facebook account? 1207 01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:01,960 Speaker 1: You got was not started yesterday. They could go to Google. 1208 01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:06,280 Speaker 1: They can go to Google. Was a bill fold I 1209 01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:08,599 Speaker 1: had a bill folding and I had receipts in it 1210 01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:13,000 Speaker 1: from a transmission place in my undercover name. I had 1211 01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:16,240 Speaker 1: an arrest record that if like if you had a 1212 01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:18,760 Speaker 1: friend that was in law enforcement and said, hey, man, 1213 01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:23,160 Speaker 1: I met this guy, J David Miller, and he's from 1214 01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,120 Speaker 1: wherever I was. Wherever it? I said, I'm not gonna 1215 01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:28,840 Speaker 1: say that wherever this guy is from, this is date 1216 01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:31,240 Speaker 1: of birth. Will you run him see if he's legit 1217 01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:36,240 Speaker 1: or and he may give that officer or that someone 1218 01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:40,000 Speaker 1: who had access to that information a totally false story. 1219 01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,720 Speaker 1: It's somebody but that they trusted and they run a 1220 01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:46,200 Speaker 1: check on it. That check is gonna come up that 1221 01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:50,000 Speaker 1: me Brent Reeves also known as J. David Miller. All 1222 01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:52,920 Speaker 1: this is gonna say is Jay David Miller, dat of 1223 01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:56,680 Speaker 1: birth addresses on there in my criminal history. I had 1224 01:12:56,680 --> 01:13:00,400 Speaker 1: a fake criminal history on their violence with the police, Uh, 1225 01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:04,320 Speaker 1: resisting a wrist, all that kind of stuff, and that's 1226 01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:08,519 Speaker 1: that was how they did. Yeah, but that's just photo. 1227 01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:12,680 Speaker 1: I've said this before. I've said this before, I'll say 1228 01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:16,120 Speaker 1: it again. I am still not entirely convinced that Brent 1229 01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:20,800 Speaker 1: Rate is not an undercover agent sent by whoever. I 1230 01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:23,960 Speaker 1: don't even know who to come bust me, because if 1231 01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:27,560 Speaker 1: they make a podcast one day about my life and 1232 01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:31,800 Speaker 1: it turns out he is undercover, go down, It'll be 1233 01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:34,000 Speaker 1: like man, I called him and I played on his ego. 1234 01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:39,200 Speaker 1: And then because Brent called me just out of the blue, 1235 01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:41,280 Speaker 1: I don't even know how I got my phone number. 1236 01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:43,920 Speaker 1: It was like, hey, man, I really like what you're doing. 1237 01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:46,400 Speaker 1: I'd like to come film for you. Really, I'm film 1238 01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:50,960 Speaker 1: for it. That's weird. Uh. And then he was got 1239 01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:56,160 Speaker 1: that camera, so I'm gonna let you. And then so 1240 01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:00,719 Speaker 1: Brent's been like compiling video footage of me tried, waiting 1241 01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:02,719 Speaker 1: for me to break the law for all these years 1242 01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:06,759 Speaker 1: and just we're still waiting. You think three part series 1243 01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:11,600 Speaker 1: is something it's going to be. Would it be to 1244 01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:14,800 Speaker 1: be a double double agent? Yeah? Like what if Russ 1245 01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:17,519 Speaker 1: Arthur had come in and been like man, Louie Dell, 1246 01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:19,360 Speaker 1: I used to work for the government. I used to 1247 01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:23,240 Speaker 1: be an undercover agent. That would have been like getting 1248 01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:31,160 Speaker 1: trust you let's go uh revisiting a podcast series from yesteryear. 1249 01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:39,519 Speaker 1: Was Wilson Rawls an undercover agent? Oh? He might have been? Oh, 1250 01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:46,519 Speaker 1: and he just never surfaced and he just went to Oh, 1251 01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:52,960 Speaker 1: I guess I have to as handler done construct a 1252 01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:57,280 Speaker 1: nuclear power plant. Um. Okay, So I feel like we're 1253 01:14:57,439 --> 01:15:00,720 Speaker 1: we we've given some justice to the series. Uh. I 1254 01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:03,240 Speaker 1: would like to go around like what was the most 1255 01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:06,800 Speaker 1: if you don't if you choose not to have there's 1256 01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:08,600 Speaker 1: some of us that may choose not to have a 1257 01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,680 Speaker 1: favorite part because they don't want to have anything to 1258 01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:13,800 Speaker 1: do with this because they're that good at people. Well, 1259 01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:21,080 Speaker 1: I feel some conscious interesting part. So we'll say what 1260 01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:25,440 Speaker 1: was the most interesting story in all the series? Josh, 1261 01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:28,479 Speaker 1: I think you gotta go with with Russ. I mean 1262 01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:32,200 Speaker 1: just listening to his interactions with Louis Dale and just 1263 01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:34,920 Speaker 1: the covert nature of it. I mean, it's that's Hey, 1264 01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:37,559 Speaker 1: did you like the intro? How I had Andy tell 1265 01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:40,439 Speaker 1: the story and then I had him al who did 1266 01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:43,799 Speaker 1: you like that? I also I also thought what Daniel 1267 01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:52,799 Speaker 1: talked about. I also thought what Daniel talked about was 1268 01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:55,679 Speaker 1: very interesting. Talk to about what Daniel talking about because 1269 01:15:55,920 --> 01:16:00,679 Speaker 1: very interesting, I you know, in his conversation sation, I thought, 1270 01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:03,040 Speaker 1: you know, people always want some someone to blame to 1271 01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:06,280 Speaker 1: for my law, for my freedoms being taken away and 1272 01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:09,559 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff, which which always fuels fuels 1273 01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:12,280 Speaker 1: the outlaw nature. So yeah, I thought that was very 1274 01:16:12,360 --> 01:16:14,639 Speaker 1: really interesting. But the whole, the whole part with Russ 1275 01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:18,960 Speaker 1: listen to that was just cool. Man. I can't wait 1276 01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:21,679 Speaker 1: to for y'all to hear some more arrust the stories. 1277 01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:24,440 Speaker 1: I can't even tell you the punch lines to them, 1278 01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:28,360 Speaker 1: because there there's two of them that are pretty incredible. 1279 01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:33,000 Speaker 1: So Russ go around this way. Okay, Misty wants to 1280 01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:39,400 Speaker 1: go last. What what was your Misty? I'm not ready. 1281 01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:45,240 Speaker 1: H Turkey calls next Russ. Arthur Turkey calling yeah, him called, yeah, 1282 01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:48,000 Speaker 1: that was all this way. I'm really just kidding. I mean, 1283 01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:52,000 Speaker 1: I like the whole thing. I enjoyed the whole thing. Uh, 1284 01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:56,720 Speaker 1: I'm with Josh on his part validated it made it 1285 01:16:56,760 --> 01:17:02,400 Speaker 1: really special. Um, no one made it special, but uh, 1286 01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:06,000 Speaker 1: I mean just I'm just the whole thing was high quality, 1287 01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:09,360 Speaker 1: you know, I just I enjoyed every bit of it. 1288 01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:16,519 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, Dr Dan's take was interesting. But 1289 01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:20,000 Speaker 1: I think you've created a scenario where you could actually 1290 01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,120 Speaker 1: make a movie out of this thing, like you could 1291 01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:25,800 Speaker 1: many lives. This guy right here, probably we need a 1292 01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:28,559 Speaker 1: movie out of him. Brent will be the guy. They'll 1293 01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:30,920 Speaker 1: make it. They'll have a podcast scene at the end 1294 01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:34,680 Speaker 1: the movie and Brent will be on there and the 1295 01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:37,080 Speaker 1: end of it will just be him just nursing Whalen 1296 01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:40,400 Speaker 1: back down every week. That's what I do every week. 1297 01:17:40,640 --> 01:17:43,720 Speaker 1: And you know, it's just it was just any of 1298 01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:46,559 Speaker 1: those stories surprise you, like, because I would not have 1299 01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:52,559 Speaker 1: known the specifics of the the fighting stories and all that, 1300 01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:55,400 Speaker 1: and I know you're usually kind of intrigued by that 1301 01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:58,120 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Yeah, no, I didn't know that stuff. 1302 01:17:58,280 --> 01:18:00,960 Speaker 1: And uh, him getting his rifle when he was in 1303 01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:04,439 Speaker 1: on that sky lift and in Texas putting the ceilings 1304 01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:07,400 Speaker 1: in probably at Walmart. You know, you know that I 1305 01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:10,240 Speaker 1: kind of enjoyed it. I mean, it's entertaining. I don't 1306 01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:13,479 Speaker 1: condone that stuff, but man, I love a good fist fight. 1307 01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:20,800 Speaker 1: I'll I'll walk along ways to see two kids fight. 1308 01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:26,719 Speaker 1: I'm not really not kids, but yeah, that's our nature. 1309 01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:29,519 Speaker 1: I mean, you can say whatever you want, but I mean, 1310 01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:33,840 Speaker 1: anything unusual, out of the ordinary. We're attracted to it. 1311 01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:38,200 Speaker 1: I thought it was a heavy play of Daniel to 1312 01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:41,320 Speaker 1: bring up Marks, because you can't be like, that's not 1313 01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:43,720 Speaker 1: what he wrote, because then you read Marks and then 1314 01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:48,479 Speaker 1: you're a communist. You can't fact check him. Right, It's true, 1315 01:18:49,160 --> 01:18:53,040 Speaker 1: always need Daniels a communist a communist. I think the 1316 01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:56,200 Speaker 1: most interesting thing for me was the context of their 1317 01:18:56,320 --> 01:18:59,479 Speaker 1: history moonshining, which I think is important to talk about 1318 01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:02,400 Speaker 1: because on on our side, like moonshining has always been 1319 01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:05,560 Speaker 1: viewed as an illegal or a listit activity. But it 1320 01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:07,800 Speaker 1: started as just a way to get our crop out 1321 01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:09,960 Speaker 1: of the holler, Like how many wagon loads am I 1322 01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:12,040 Speaker 1: going to have to take this corn out? But if 1323 01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:14,320 Speaker 1: I distill it into whiskey, I can take it out 1324 01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:17,080 Speaker 1: in one load, right, And that evolves into you can't 1325 01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:22,360 Speaker 1: do this anymore, evolves into a circumstance where one of 1326 01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:25,880 Speaker 1: their uncles gets murdered, one of their whatever, we don't 1327 01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:29,280 Speaker 1: really know. This is not to excuse their behavior, you know, 1328 01:19:29,640 --> 01:19:32,880 Speaker 1: fifty years of poaching turkeys from there, but it helps 1329 01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:36,280 Speaker 1: contextualize it from me that it wasn't just like a 1330 01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:38,560 Speaker 1: group of guys waking up one day going you know 1331 01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:40,879 Speaker 1: what I think I'm gonna go kill all the turkeys. 1332 01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:44,960 Speaker 1: I think that history and like to have the newspaper 1333 01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:47,080 Speaker 1: articles to like to know that this is such a 1334 01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:50,560 Speaker 1: part of the identity of the family, and that that 1335 01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:56,160 Speaker 1: I think makes makes it so interesting. And I think 1336 01:19:56,240 --> 01:19:59,360 Speaker 1: that's part of why I wanted to tell the story, 1337 01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:01,679 Speaker 1: is that people don't just pop out of the box 1338 01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:04,640 Speaker 1: and act the way they act because they decided to. 1339 01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:10,120 Speaker 1: Most people have a long and robust history that led 1340 01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:13,560 Speaker 1: them to a certain place. And inside of saying that, 1341 01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:18,200 Speaker 1: also say that we have the ability to change that, 1342 01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:22,920 Speaker 1: like we're not muzzled by the narrative of our past. 1343 01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:26,760 Speaker 1: But it's interesting. But but to not be muzzled by 1344 01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:29,560 Speaker 1: you have to be aware of its driving force. I 1345 01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:31,240 Speaker 1: don't know if it's Brent that said it or somebody 1346 01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:33,840 Speaker 1: else that said it that. Uh, now I have somebody else, 1347 01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:37,519 Speaker 1: somebody else a good friend of mine, uh message me 1348 01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:40,679 Speaker 1: and uh he said, no, I'm not endeared to these guys. 1349 01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:43,679 Speaker 1: He said, I'm endeared to people that have a bad 1350 01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:46,240 Speaker 1: history and wake up and do something different than their 1351 01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:52,880 Speaker 1: forefathers did. It was a great comment, one percent, and like, yep, 1352 01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:56,439 Speaker 1: I mean that's like all we ever talked about on 1353 01:20:56,479 --> 01:20:58,840 Speaker 1: this podcast is people that do something different. Do you 1354 01:20:58,880 --> 01:21:02,240 Speaker 1: remember when we talked about Clark who whose family they 1355 01:21:02,280 --> 01:21:05,479 Speaker 1: were they were there big into alcohol and he just 1356 01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:09,639 Speaker 1: was like that and we were like, that is good. 1357 01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:13,360 Speaker 1: That's what we're talking about. So, you know, we're not 1358 01:21:13,479 --> 01:21:18,000 Speaker 1: trying to encourage people to be to to be dominated 1359 01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:21,679 Speaker 1: by their past, but to not be dominated by your past. 1360 01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:23,280 Speaker 1: You gotta have you gotta be able to see it 1361 01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:25,800 Speaker 1: and understand it and to see the track. And so 1362 01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:31,360 Speaker 1: I thought that was really interesting, very interesting. Brent ris 1363 01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:36,080 Speaker 1: like nothing was interesting. That's not true. I thought there 1364 01:21:36,160 --> 01:21:39,960 Speaker 1: was a lot of interesting parts um Rus talking about 1365 01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:43,360 Speaker 1: the operation because I just when he was talking about it, 1366 01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:46,400 Speaker 1: I was seeing it in my head. That's exactly, you know, 1367 01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:51,160 Speaker 1: he was verbatim exactly how it happened. I know the stories. 1368 01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:53,760 Speaker 1: I spent the better part of the thirty one years 1369 01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:59,920 Speaker 1: living and chasing folks that were, you know, on the 1370 01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:04,920 Speaker 1: other side of the law, so it wasn't as intriguing 1371 01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:07,200 Speaker 1: to me as it was. I'm sure I'll people because 1372 01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:10,320 Speaker 1: any time I get around another person that I've worked 1373 01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:13,760 Speaker 1: with over the past, old war stories always come up, 1374 01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:16,400 Speaker 1: you know, and I've seen a million people like that. 1375 01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:20,040 Speaker 1: A million people. And and I've said it before, you know, 1376 01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:28,639 Speaker 1: the in my career, everywhere I went, I was seeing 1377 01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:32,920 Speaker 1: more than likely good people on their worst day. And 1378 01:22:33,080 --> 01:22:37,680 Speaker 1: it's I know these guys were good people, and I 1379 01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:40,559 Speaker 1: know that what they were doing was not a mass 1380 01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:44,040 Speaker 1: up there with who we've mentioned by and Clyde and 1381 01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:46,519 Speaker 1: those kind of folks up there. But I've seen a 1382 01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:51,160 Speaker 1: jillion folks make poor decisions, and so it and I 1383 01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:56,040 Speaker 1: say all that to say I wasn't endearing endeared to 1384 01:22:56,160 --> 01:22:59,479 Speaker 1: them in any way. I was intrigued by their story 1385 01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:01,920 Speaker 1: because it's just one of a million that I've heard 1386 01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:07,519 Speaker 1: that's very similar. And they were authentic people, no doubt 1387 01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:09,680 Speaker 1: about that, and you got to I gotta give them 1388 01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:11,920 Speaker 1: props for that, for being who they were. I think 1389 01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:15,000 Speaker 1: that's been brought up a couple of times, but I do. 1390 01:23:16,120 --> 01:23:20,760 Speaker 1: I also think about, you know, Jimmy Martin's viewpoint on it, 1391 01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:24,600 Speaker 1: and his supervisor, whoever he was, and the things that 1392 01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:28,200 Speaker 1: they were up against, and probably the ridicule that they 1393 01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:31,439 Speaker 1: probably got, you know, behind closed doors or when he 1394 01:23:31,520 --> 01:23:33,320 Speaker 1: got up he walked out of the coffee shop that 1395 01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, they can't they couldn't catch those two guys. Well, 1396 01:23:36,720 --> 01:23:39,400 Speaker 1: if that's all they had to do, they've probably come 1397 01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:47,320 Speaker 1: a lot closer. And that's what I took out of it. Yeah, yeah, okay, 1398 01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I think the most interesting part of this 1399 01:23:50,400 --> 01:23:53,759 Speaker 1: is some of the responses we've had heard from people 1400 01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:58,360 Speaker 1: in response to you doing this podcast. And so I feel, 1401 01:23:58,400 --> 01:24:00,160 Speaker 1: as your wife, like I need to summariz us a 1402 01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:02,960 Speaker 1: little bit what we've what we've gained from UH and 1403 01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:07,200 Speaker 1: and help help people claim Nucom is not a poacher. 1404 01:24:07,400 --> 01:24:10,240 Speaker 1: He does not glorify poaching, he doesn't like poaching. And 1405 01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:12,639 Speaker 1: in fact, I think you're one of the most upright people, 1406 01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:16,080 Speaker 1: I mean really that I've ever met in terms of 1407 01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:19,519 Speaker 1: like ethical right and wrong. You know, very clear rights 1408 01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:22,760 Speaker 1: or wrong. I'm not talking to brit Britain. Brittain knows 1409 01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:26,200 Speaker 1: he you know. I mean, it's been documenting that for 1410 01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:37,000 Speaker 1: a decade, wasting his life first first time, the first 1411 01:24:37,040 --> 01:24:40,400 Speaker 1: time around. But I think what what you were just 1412 01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:42,920 Speaker 1: trying to understand, like your whole podcast is just trying 1413 01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:47,080 Speaker 1: to answer questions because you yourself felt conflicted, because there's 1414 01:24:47,320 --> 01:24:53,000 Speaker 1: things about these guys that you see as unambiguously wrong 1415 01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:56,599 Speaker 1: and yet you were near to him, and the whole 1416 01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:58,880 Speaker 1: community around you was, and you're just trying to answer 1417 01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:02,439 Speaker 1: the question why. And part of that answer came through 1418 01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:04,800 Speaker 1: looking at him, not through the lens as poachers, but 1419 01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:10,080 Speaker 1: looking at this dynamic of outlaws and the outlaw archetype 1420 01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:13,280 Speaker 1: and trying to understand why are we culturally drawn to that. 1421 01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:16,559 Speaker 1: Not every culture is drawn to the outlaw architect type. 1422 01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:19,799 Speaker 1: And that's interesting to us. And that's an interesting dynamic, 1423 01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:22,760 Speaker 1: and that Russ pointed it out as a Southern phenomenon. 1424 01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:25,000 Speaker 1: That's interesting to us because we look at a lot 1425 01:25:25,080 --> 01:25:28,720 Speaker 1: of rural, Southern types of people. I mean, even like 1426 01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:30,840 Speaker 1: the little book you just read about Elijah, I thought 1427 01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:33,320 Speaker 1: how interesting. I mean that that is written by a 1428 01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:36,880 Speaker 1: theologian and he's kind of describing the types of people 1429 01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:42,439 Speaker 1: that that you you find interesting a long long time ago. 1430 01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:45,240 Speaker 1: And and you're just trying to answer those questions. And 1431 01:25:45,320 --> 01:25:48,920 Speaker 1: we're really comfortable living with that, those questions and asking 1432 01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:53,360 Speaker 1: those questions. And we don't by by saying why we're 1433 01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:56,400 Speaker 1: not we're not shifting our views on morality here. We're not. 1434 01:25:56,720 --> 01:25:59,160 Speaker 1: That's not up for grabs. We're not shifting. No one 1435 01:25:59,200 --> 01:26:01,640 Speaker 1: in this room is we we believe in morality, we 1436 01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:04,320 Speaker 1: believe in right and wrong. We're not glorifying wrong. We're 1437 01:26:04,360 --> 01:26:06,640 Speaker 1: trying to understand why do we cheer for that guy 1438 01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:08,840 Speaker 1: in the movie. Why do we find them endearing in 1439 01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:12,120 Speaker 1: the community. What attributes make this guy in daring but 1440 01:26:12,280 --> 01:26:15,599 Speaker 1: other bad guys not endearing? What makes it interesting? That's 1441 01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:17,800 Speaker 1: all we're trying to do. Just have you been getting 1442 01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:21,040 Speaker 1: some of that? Like you, you guys are condonedt poaching 1443 01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:24,759 Speaker 1: very little. You know, if you are, they're not listening 1444 01:26:25,120 --> 01:26:28,040 Speaker 1: right right right now. I would say, I would say 1445 01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:31,599 Speaker 1: the vast majority of the commentary I've gotten has been positive, 1446 01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:35,800 Speaker 1: but for sure a few a few people have just 1447 01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:40,320 Speaker 1: outright been like, got it out and you know that's okay. 1448 01:26:41,360 --> 01:26:43,519 Speaker 1: The way I look at it is, if you, I mean, 1449 01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:47,559 Speaker 1: it's the truth. If you if everybody likes what you're doing, 1450 01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:51,960 Speaker 1: you're probably doing something wrong. You know. One thing I've 1451 01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:57,519 Speaker 1: noticed is that we use that word outlaw. It's a 1452 01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:01,120 Speaker 1: marketing tool. You know, you've cree aided a heading there 1453 01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:03,080 Speaker 1: that people look at it and go and I'm gonna 1454 01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:07,080 Speaker 1: listen to this. We never viewed those guys as outlaws. 1455 01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:10,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, they were just people in the community. Socially, 1456 01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:15,920 Speaker 1: it wasn't really socially accepted. But you know, half the 1457 01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:18,519 Speaker 1: guys I knew in that town. I mean, they're gonna 1458 01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:21,040 Speaker 1: shoot a deer out of season. They're gonna shoot an 1459 01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:25,360 Speaker 1: extra turkey or two. You know. It's just it's not 1460 01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:29,599 Speaker 1: like some major crime like we've just read or seen 1461 01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:32,400 Speaker 1: on TV where a guy d w I is driving 1462 01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:34,280 Speaker 1: down the highway. You know when he gets picked up, Well, 1463 01:27:34,360 --> 01:27:37,240 Speaker 1: he could have killed your kids. You got a neighbor 1464 01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:40,559 Speaker 1: down here that's a drunk and he's you got kids, 1465 01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:44,760 Speaker 1: you know. So it's not like death defying outlaws here. 1466 01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:48,640 Speaker 1: You know, they're uh, they're breaking the loss that they 1467 01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:56,920 Speaker 1: are outlaws, but it's socially not criticized as bad. I mean, 1468 01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:58,960 Speaker 1: we never just said around to go, man, these are 1469 01:27:59,080 --> 01:28:01,920 Speaker 1: terrible people. We didn't even talk about it. You know, 1470 01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:06,760 Speaker 1: you just knew that they were killing turkeys. It wasn't like, um, 1471 01:28:07,160 --> 01:28:10,840 Speaker 1: they rubbed some levins or you know, shooting up the neighborhood, 1472 01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:18,160 Speaker 1: dealing in drugs. Anyway. Yeah, well, I love telling the 1473 01:28:18,280 --> 01:28:22,320 Speaker 1: story that's not really been told, you know in a 1474 01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:28,240 Speaker 1: big way. And uh so i'd tell stories I'd tell 1475 01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:30,920 Speaker 1: stories like this every week if we could, you know, 1476 01:28:31,680 --> 01:28:34,360 Speaker 1: I mean not not not breaking the law stories, but 1477 01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:40,640 Speaker 1: stories that are hidden kind of behind the scenes of 1478 01:28:42,120 --> 01:28:46,320 Speaker 1: unique stuff happening, and just like you know, common common 1479 01:28:46,400 --> 01:28:51,040 Speaker 1: little places, you know, And so it was. It was 1480 01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:53,879 Speaker 1: a lot of fun. And I think Andy Brown deserves 1481 01:28:53,960 --> 01:28:57,960 Speaker 1: some form of a word. I mean, if I could 1482 01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:01,639 Speaker 1: have a co host on the Burrigaries podcast, it would 1483 01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:08,960 Speaker 1: be Andy Brown. He oh my gosh and the uh 1484 01:29:09,479 --> 01:29:14,800 Speaker 1: and the h. He has the most contagious laugh when 1485 01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:17,160 Speaker 1: the story that that I put in there of him 1486 01:29:17,200 --> 01:29:21,800 Speaker 1: telling about the squirrel jumping out onto and it just 1487 01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:24,680 Speaker 1: so happened that the other insurance agent he was with 1488 01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:27,720 Speaker 1: was named Charlie. That story, if you didn't really listen, 1489 01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:29,920 Speaker 1: it could have been confusing. You might have thought the 1490 01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:33,559 Speaker 1: squirrel jumped on Charlie Edwards. The squirrel jumped on Charlie 1491 01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:36,880 Speaker 1: the insurance agent. I've sat in this chair in this 1492 01:29:37,120 --> 01:29:40,240 Speaker 1: office at night when I was working on that podcast 1493 01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:43,800 Speaker 1: and would just belly laugh out loud and listening to 1494 01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:47,960 Speaker 1: Andy tell that story. But now and he made the podcast. Man, 1495 01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:52,160 Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't necessarily his stories, It was him laughing. Yeah, 1496 01:29:52,280 --> 01:29:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, you just get caught up in the moment. 1497 01:29:54,640 --> 01:29:59,200 Speaker 1: I did the same thing you're talking about. Oh man, 1498 01:29:59,479 --> 01:30:01,840 Speaker 1: you know what I learned so much by talking to 1499 01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:07,559 Speaker 1: all these different people, like uh yeah, and he's just yeah, 1500 01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:11,680 Speaker 1: he that's just the way he He's always like that. 1501 01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:16,400 Speaker 1: And he's just always uh always. As somebody told me 1502 01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:19,400 Speaker 1: the other day, he's always happy, always laughing, you know. 1503 01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:23,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, Andy Brown, he'll be he'd be my Coast 1504 01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:27,479 Speaker 1: the Burger's podcast. He make a good one. I've had 1505 01:30:27,520 --> 01:30:30,320 Speaker 1: a couple of people come up that I've known for years. 1506 01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:33,600 Speaker 1: I've actually hunted with a couple of these guys and go, 1507 01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:37,080 Speaker 1: you know, I killed fifteen turkeys four season one time. 1508 01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:42,000 Speaker 1: You know, it's just like you can talk about, yeah, 1509 01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:47,120 Speaker 1: walk in the big restaurant and mena and pull out 1510 01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:50,000 Speaker 1: of water turkey beards and I mean, you know those 1511 01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:54,280 Speaker 1: guys would kill him and go home. You know. In 1512 01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:59,040 Speaker 1: Charlie and Louis hill Man, they're they're entertainers. Man. Yeah, 1513 01:30:59,400 --> 01:31:02,800 Speaker 1: so you did a good job play. I have to say, 1514 01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:10,880 Speaker 1: well I appreciated. Yeah, Well that's fun. I think I 1515 01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:16,120 Speaker 1: think there's I think as we move more into whatever 1516 01:31:16,280 --> 01:31:20,240 Speaker 1: direction the world's going, these stories like this are are 1517 01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:24,400 Speaker 1: meaningful in some ways. They give us like markers for 1518 01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:28,280 Speaker 1: something and and uh so, yeah, I don't know why, 1519 01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:31,360 Speaker 1: but I like I like these kind of I like 1520 01:31:31,479 --> 01:31:34,120 Speaker 1: a good story. Gary, you got a story about black panthers. 1521 01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:38,160 Speaker 1: Do you know? You guys are not gonna believe this, 1522 01:31:38,280 --> 01:31:47,240 Speaker 1: but I'm telling you right. I mean, I walked out 1523 01:31:47,240 --> 01:31:52,759 Speaker 1: of the garage the other night and a black panther 1524 01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:56,720 Speaker 1: was in my yard and jumped into the shrubs. And 1525 01:31:56,840 --> 01:31:59,320 Speaker 1: you want to know why. I know it's a black panther. 1526 01:31:59,479 --> 01:32:02,560 Speaker 1: It was young. You know, it was a baby, So 1527 01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:05,160 Speaker 1: you know there's gotta be I mean, I swear I 1528 01:32:05,240 --> 01:32:08,720 Speaker 1: saw it black panther jump in to disrupt, So you 1529 01:32:08,760 --> 01:32:13,480 Speaker 1: know there's got to be kem yoke. There's a breeding population. 1530 01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:18,880 Speaker 1: About five pounds, yeah about probably less, run through the 1531 01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:21,920 Speaker 1: kiddy door of your neighbor's house. I don't know, but 1532 01:32:22,080 --> 01:32:24,559 Speaker 1: it had the long tail, just like we talked about. 1533 01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:29,920 Speaker 1: It just was young. I thought it was a black panthers. 1534 01:32:31,400 --> 01:32:34,800 Speaker 1: I think I think Gary has taking possession of old 1535 01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:38,400 Speaker 1: great Uncle's steel. Yeah, baby, so I think he's moved 1536 01:32:38,439 --> 01:32:41,560 Speaker 1: the baseline saying not only did they exist, there is 1537 01:32:41,600 --> 01:32:48,200 Speaker 1: a breeding population he needs to have a have a 1538 01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:52,560 Speaker 1: biological conference about the breeding population outline black panthers in 1539 01:32:52,640 --> 01:32:57,360 Speaker 1: western Arkansas. Pretty soon we're gonna have Thank you so much, guys, 1540 01:32:57,479 --> 01:33:03,160 Speaker 1: everybody really great. Keep the wild place as wild. That's 1541 01:33:03,200 --> 01:33:08,960 Speaker 1: where the pants that's where the poaching takes. Keep the 1542 01:33:09,040 --> 01:33:12,280 Speaker 1: domestic places domesticated because that's where the black panthers are. 1543 01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:14,080 Speaker 1: That's where the poaching takes