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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones. Best looking crowd I've ever seen,

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Speaker 1: and it's not just all the beverages that they give

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Speaker 1: you on this cruise. I call this Thank you all

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Speaker 1: for being here.

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Speaker 3: That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's our first live show. We've never done

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Speaker 1: anything like this before.

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Speaker 3: So, Hey, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: Hey Paul, I'm doing well. How about you?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing great. I'm here on this cruise.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe in me.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: One of the things about this case that we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about. If you're true crime officionados, you of

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Speaker 2: course have heard about the black Dahlia. One of the

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Speaker 2: unusual aspects of this case from something from the nineteen

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Speaker 2: forties is there's a lot of photographs because the media

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Speaker 2: was allowed at the crime scene where the victim was found.

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Speaker 2: As a result, I have material that I often don't

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Speaker 2: have from case.

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Speaker 3: Is that Kate picks right.

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Speaker 2: However, I'm just giving you a warning up front that

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be having to talk about some very

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Speaker 2: graphic aspects to the injuries that the victims suffered, as

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Speaker 2: well as some very disturbing behaviors about the offender.

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Speaker 3: So just be aware of that.

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Speaker 2: I will alert you before I start really getting into

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Speaker 2: those details ahead of time.

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Speaker 3: In case you don't want.

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Speaker 1: To listen to that, let me do a little disclaimer

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Speaker 1: because Paul had his disclaimer, but mine is that this

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Speaker 1: is such a massive case, and you'll hear why in

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Speaker 1: a little bit. This has been such a massive case.

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Speaker 1: There's no way we can gram this into an hour

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Speaker 1: and a half episode. So if you guys have really

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Speaker 1: done a deep dive, which I know some of you

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Speaker 1: probably have on this case, we haven't been able to

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Speaker 1: include everything. There's more suspects than people in this room.

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Speaker 1: I feel like for black Dahlia. So we kind of

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Speaker 1: went with the highlights everything. All of our sources are

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Speaker 1: in the public dome and also, you know, from Paul's knowledge,

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Speaker 1: but we do have some authors out there who have,

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Speaker 1: you know, their own opinions, and so when we talk

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Speaker 1: about those opinions, we'll make sure that we mention who

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Speaker 1: the authors are for sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds good.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I'm going to do the very famous

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Speaker 1: quote with thing I always do. Let's set the scene,

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Speaker 1: Set the scene. Okay, So we are talking about Elizabeth Short.

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Speaker 1: This is in la in nineteen forty seven. Elizabeth Short

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Speaker 1: is twenty two, and she is sometimes called Betty or Beth,

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Speaker 1: and she's a recent transplant from Medford, Massachusetts. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you can tell she is striking and she, according to

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Speaker 1: her friends, is very very outgoing, and everybody thought she

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Speaker 1: was going to be a Hollywood star essentially. So I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna give you guys some background, and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: to kind of go through before I'll have Paul chime

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Speaker 1: in on some stuff. But we need to know more

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Speaker 1: about her. My experience with this case has been because

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Speaker 1: it is such a difficult case and I'm somebody who

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Speaker 1: talks about murder every single day. I've kind of avoided

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Speaker 1: it until now looking at the details. But I was

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Speaker 1: really interested in her as a person. And of course

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Speaker 1: Paul will say, because of do your line now, I

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Speaker 1: want to hear your line.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, victimology is huge. You have to understand who the

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Speaker 3: victim is.

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Speaker 1: We need to get that printed. That's his big line

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Speaker 1: you get on a T shirt. Victimology is huge. So

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Speaker 1: you know, we're going to talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: her and then we'll get into the circumstances and all

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Speaker 1: of that. Okay, So she had died jet black hair

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Speaker 1: in high school, and she has these beautiful, pale green eyes.

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Speaker 1: And she had a nickname I had not heard before,

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Speaker 1: Medford's Deanna Durban. I think you had to be there

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties to get that immediately. So this

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Speaker 1: was a very famous Canadian American soprano and actress. She

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Speaker 1: got the nickname Black Dahlia. And interesting way, so she

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Speaker 1: used to hang out in Long Beach at Landers drug

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Speaker 1: store and she got the nickname Black Dahlia, which was

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Speaker 1: a riff off of a movie from nineteen forty six,

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Speaker 1: which now I'm going to see the more I read

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Speaker 1: about it, which is about a woman who is married

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Speaker 1: to a naval officer. He comes back from the South Pacific.

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Speaker 1: He finds out that she has been having an affair

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Speaker 1: and she ends up dead, and everybody's a suspect. And so,

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Speaker 1: of course we know the irony with that is that's

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Speaker 1: her nickname. So it's I've always wondered where that nickname

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Speaker 1: came from.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't realize that actually, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the people at the drug store thought that

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth had a very unusual look. She also liked to

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Speaker 1: wear black and lacy garments and flowers, and she often

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Speaker 1: pinned a flower behind one ear. And she had a

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Speaker 1: roast tattoo on her left thigh, which I think we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about.

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Speaker 3: We will be talking about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so she would kind of cross her legs

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Speaker 1: to show off this rose tattoo.

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Speaker 3: Well, what do you say, Kate.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're talking nineteen late nineteen forties, and you know,

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Speaker 2: tattoos that become very accepted today, but back in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen forties, tattoos were often looked at as almost like

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Speaker 2: a criminal type of mark or military And now you

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Speaker 2: have a twenty two year old woman that has a

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Speaker 2: tattoo that she likes to show show off.

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Speaker 3: That tells me she's got a little bit of an

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Speaker 3: edge to her.

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Speaker 1: She does, yeah, very much. I mean I remember my

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Speaker 1: grandmother talking about how she was horrified and this was

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Speaker 1: must have been in the seventies by puerced earrings on

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Speaker 1: women that she always had that I have a bunch

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Speaker 1: of clip ons, pearls clip on. So that's kind of

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Speaker 1: where we're headed with this. Yes, I think she had

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Speaker 1: a little bit of an edge. So there were some

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Speaker 1: things that you know, I didn't know about her childhood.

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Speaker 1: She had asthma, bronchitis. Also, she was moody, they said, despondent.

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Speaker 1: And these are from people who liked her, you know,

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Speaker 1: who loved her. I know people could say that about me.

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Speaker 1: I guess every once in w she wore makeup a

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Speaker 1: lot of makeup. They say an inch thick, which I

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Speaker 1: would have to say, is kind of be an exaggeration.

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Speaker 1: I would hope maybe not. So here's the thing about

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Short and I think one of the things that

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Speaker 1: makes this story a mystery and one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: why people are so fascinated by it is Elizabeth wasn't

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Speaker 1: trueful about her life. She was about some things, oftentimes

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Speaker 1: not about other things, or even her location where she

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Speaker 1: was heading, what she was going to do. And so

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Speaker 1: I think that makes it a really fascinating case for people.

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Speaker 1: So we kind of start here. She made up a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different backstories for various reasons. My kid is

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Speaker 1: calling me inexplicably on FaceTime right now, but I don't

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Speaker 1: can't see it. I mean, I'm not going to take

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Speaker 1: this call, but I kind of want to go DC.

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Speaker 1: There's four hundred people here, Okay. So she had a

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Speaker 1: lot of different backstories. So she said she worked for

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Speaker 1: Western Airlines. She said she modeled for a shop specializing

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Speaker 1: in hats in Hollywood. These are very specific claims. She

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Speaker 1: told her mother that she worked at a San Diego

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Speaker 1: Naval hospital, and sometimes she said that she was a

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Speaker 1: war widow who not only lost her husband but also

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Speaker 1: their son. And so, you know, my first kind of

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Speaker 1: question is, I know it seems obvious, but she's obviously

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Speaker 1: a complicated victim already.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 2: Well, and when you said that she's claiming that she

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Speaker 2: worked or at these various locations, is she being truthful

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Speaker 2: about it? No, So she's trying to portray herself as

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Speaker 2: something she's not.

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Speaker 3: And my question of why is she doing that?

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Speaker 2: Is she ashamed of her background and what she's actually done,

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Speaker 2: or is she trying to She's reading the person she's

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Speaker 2: talking to, and she's trying to become something that that

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Speaker 2: person might be interested in, either as a friend, as

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Speaker 2: a romantic partner, but she's wanting to manipulate how people

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Speaker 2: perceive her.

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Speaker 1: Well before we approached the timeline of this case, we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about one man who actually seemed very important to

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Speaker 1: her is a guy named Matt Gordon, and that's him.

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Speaker 1: He's very handsome, and he was a World War two

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Speaker 1: pilot and they had dated, get the impression that they

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Speaker 1: were going to get married, but he was killed in

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Speaker 1: a plane crash in India, And so I had wondered

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Speaker 1: if that was kind of what led her to the

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Speaker 1: war widow claim. And I'll show you another picture while

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Speaker 1: you talk like.

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Speaker 2: Maybe she's trying to play I mean, obviously that's a

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Speaker 2: traumatic thing for her. She's in love with this man

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Speaker 2: and she loses him, but also she may be trying

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Speaker 2: to take advantage of this war widow aspect, whether it

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Speaker 2: be for sympathy or whether the benefits she could get

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Speaker 2: as a result.

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Speaker 3: But were they married, You said no.

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Speaker 1: They dated in Miami Beach five years before she died,

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Speaker 1: and he seemed very sick. Because later on they find

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Speaker 1: some they get some of her belongings, and there was

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Speaker 1: an obituary with him, you know, mentioned and everything. So

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Speaker 1: I think this was this was somebody who was very special,

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Speaker 1: and I don't see anybody else special in her life

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Speaker 1: as we move forward.

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Speaker 2: Well, and I believe offline you and I talked about

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Speaker 2: her father.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's a story coming out right here.

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Speaker 3: Okay, am I get jumping ahead.

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Speaker 1: He does it sometimes, but you know, I'm usually polite

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Speaker 1: about it. I like the way you're thinking though. Okay.

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Speaker 1: She told her Hollywood friends that she was an aspiring actress,

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Speaker 1: but she never signed up for any classes. She never

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Speaker 1: auditioned anywhere. I had wondered if that was just the

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Speaker 1: expectations that people had put on her, because she was

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Speaker 1: so you know, different than the other kids in Medford, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 2: I can believe or she would be an aspiring actress.

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Speaker 2: She has the looks. She's in the Los Angeles region,

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Speaker 2: so maybe she was hoping something would catch on.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you about a big lie that she

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Speaker 1: told and then why it's significant and kind of getting

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Speaker 1: into her background. So she told friends who asked, have

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Speaker 1: you been? They said, have you ever been to California?

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Speaker 1: And she said no, she had been, I think right

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Speaker 1: after Matt Gordon died and she went to visit her

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Speaker 1: father in Vallejo. And the thing about what happened with

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Speaker 1: her father seems traumatizing to me.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So his name was Cleo Short. He left Elizabeth and

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Speaker 1: her mom and her four sisters in Massachusetts in nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty and they were all led to believe that he

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Speaker 1: had taken his own life. He parked his car right

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Speaker 1: in front of a bridge over a river. They never

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Speaker 1: found his body. He had faked it, faked his own death,

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Speaker 1: and moved to California. And then he ends up reaching

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Speaker 1: out to Elizabeth and says, you know, why don't you

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Speaker 1: come and visit me, And she was stunned, I have

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Speaker 1: to soon, but he said, you know, he had a

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Speaker 1: history of alcoholism, and he actually mailed her two hundred

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Speaker 1: dollars to visit him, and she went. But I don't

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Speaker 1: know what kind of a guest Elizabeth was, but she

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Speaker 1: gets ejected from several different places and this is one

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Speaker 1: of the first places, as her dad says, after a

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Speaker 1: few months, Okay, you're going to have to move out

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Speaker 1: at some point out of Valletjo.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, way back earlier in Elizabeth's life,

235
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Speaker 2: she thinks her father has killed himself, and then she

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Speaker 2: loses this boyfriend that she's very attached to. So she's

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Speaker 2: suffered two traumatic losses, and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: her father comes back into her life. I mean, so

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Speaker 2: you can imagine there's going to be a trust issue there,

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Speaker 2: particularly with men, and not necessarily with the pilots so much,

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Speaker 2: but because of the father.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, this is obviously a man who

243
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Speaker 1: who was living some kind of a false life to

244
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Speaker 1: make people believe his family, i mean five kids, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and his wife believe that he had taken his own life.

246
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Speaker 1: So that just sets her up for right insecurity and

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Speaker 1: everything else.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, So she does something interesting. She worked at

250
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Speaker 1: a post exchange as a clerk at Camp Cook which

251
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Speaker 1: was in Santa Barbara County, and so it was a

252
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Speaker 1: training post for serviceman it's called something different now. She

253
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Speaker 1: was named Camp Cutie, which is I think when she

254
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Speaker 1: was attractive, and then she quit suddenly, So now we

255
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Speaker 1: start getting into people who might have been involved but

256
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Speaker 1: were not sure. She had gotten into what she described

257
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Speaker 1: as an abusive relationship with a guy that she called

258
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Speaker 1: Sergeant Chuck. There was a court martial proceeding and she

259
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Speaker 1: testified that he assaulted her, and he was transferred overseas,

260
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Speaker 1: but she stayed in Santa Barbara. I don't think they

261
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Speaker 1: ever tracked down Sergeant Chuck, but that just shows you,

262
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Speaker 1: you know, she was at the beginning kind of gravitating

263
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Speaker 1: towards this kind of relationship.

264
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Speaker 2: Ye sure, And anytime you get involved at an investigation

265
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Speaker 2: and you're starting to dig into the victim's background, of

266
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,839
Speaker 2: course you're going to be taking a look at the

267
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Speaker 2: men that were in her background even years prior.

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Speaker 3: Could somebody come back out of vengeance.

269
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Speaker 2: They're vindictive, they've been feel like they've been spurned, and

270
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Speaker 2: possibly cross paths with her again, tracked her down in

271
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Speaker 2: order to exact that vengeance. And so here it sounds like,

272
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Speaker 2: at least from her perspective, this was an abusive relationship.

273
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Speaker 2: So of course the investigators are going to kind of

274
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Speaker 2: pay attention to this guy and figure out where was

275
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Speaker 2: he at at the time she was last seen.

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Speaker 1: So if we're catching up here, she's nineteen, nineteen forty three.

277
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Speaker 1: She's been telling lies. We don't really know why. We've

278
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Speaker 1: talked a little bit about the psychology, but there's no

279
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:03,560
Speaker 1: grifting or manipulation or law breaking until she's arrested at

280
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Speaker 1: nineteen for underage drinking. They instead of putting her in jail,

281
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Speaker 1: they shipped her back to Massachusetts, which didn't last very long.

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Speaker 3: Sure, you know.

283
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Speaker 2: And again, this I think starts going to Elizabeth's personality

284
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Speaker 2: and maybe some of the lifestyle choices that she's wanting

285
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Speaker 2: to make as she's getting older. I mean, obviously underage

286
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 2: drinking is not something that is what would be considered

287
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,800
Speaker 2: just a horrible thing to do, really, But at the

288
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 2: same time, it again kind of speaks to maybe there's

289
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,120
Speaker 2: an edginess to her, maybe a little bit more of

290
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 2: a risk taking aspect to her personality.

291
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it gets a little riskier too.

292
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Speaker 1: So she bounced around between Medford, Miami Beach, Atlanta, and

293
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Speaker 1: then June first, nineteen forty six, she gets on a

294
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Speaker 1: Greyhound bus and goes west. She's drawn back to California.

295
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, extraordinarily independent.

296
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, she ended up in Indianapolis. Then she went to Chicago,

297
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 1: and then she landed in Long Beach, so she had

298
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Speaker 1: been to Vallejo to see her dad before. By early fall, though,

299
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,400
Speaker 1: she's in LA and she wants to be. It sounds

300
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,120
Speaker 1: like in LA she's not there the whole time, but

301
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,760
Speaker 1: she'll go back and forth, and ultimately she ends up

302
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:21,960
Speaker 1: dying in LA.

303
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:22,600
Speaker 3: Right.

304
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,640
Speaker 2: And one of the things, as I didn't realize this

305
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:31,560
Speaker 2: about Elizabeth, was her familiarity with Los Angeles, and I

306
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 2: believe that comes into play a little bit.

307
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,880
Speaker 1: Later on here, Yeah, it does. Okay, here's the first

308
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,160
Speaker 1: guy that we have to be concerned about. His name's

309
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:45,320
Speaker 1: Mark Hanson. And her friends and acquaintances say that she

310
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,200
Speaker 1: was able to stay in LA different parts of California.

311
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,160
Speaker 1: She was relying on friends, not just male friends, but

312
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 1: female friends, and also on men. So she would meet

313
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,600
Speaker 1: men and she would date them. I'm not saying she's

314
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,600
Speaker 1: sleeping with all these people, but she would, you know,

315
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,800
Speaker 1: befriend them and date them, and then you know, this

316
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,760
Speaker 1: is what complicates the case. This is one of those guys.

317
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:13,040
Speaker 1: He pops up later. So she would move between residences

318
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:18,720
Speaker 1: in Hollywood and downtown, and she seemed to gravitate towards

319
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:24,359
Speaker 1: serviceman like Matt Gordon, and she was also attracted to businessmen.

320
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,040
Speaker 1: This would be one of them. Mark Hanson was fifty five,

321
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,879
Speaker 1: he was Danish. She was a businessman. He owned a

322
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Speaker 1: theater and he was a silent partner in the Florentine

323
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,199
Speaker 1: Gardens nightclub mover and shaker. I would say, we don't

324
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,240
Speaker 1: know the real nature of their relationship, and I think

325
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 1: people have said, oh, it has to be sexual. It

326
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,199
Speaker 1: didn't have to be sexual. And he becomes a suspect

327
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,639
Speaker 1: later on because one of the theories was that he

328
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,040
Speaker 1: tried to make it sexual and she rebuffed him, and

329
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,719
Speaker 1: this is what ended up happening. But we do know

330
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 1: that she rented a room from him for a certain

331
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,000
Speaker 1: period of time right around when she was murdered in La.

332
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,199
Speaker 1: She also had a boyfriend at the same time, and

333
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:07,480
Speaker 1: she would stay with that guy, and I'll tell you

334
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,159
Speaker 1: about him in a little bit. So this is the

335
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:09,760
Speaker 1: first one.

336
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so older gentlemen, well resourced, you know, and this

337
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,760
Speaker 2: can come into play in terms of what happens the

338
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,040
Speaker 2: night that she disappears.

339
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Okay, we have another guy named Marvin Margalise,

340
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,399
Speaker 1: and we're going through these people now because there were

341
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,080
Speaker 1: significant in her life before she died. So when she

342
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 1: wasn't staying at Mark Hanson's place where she was renting

343
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,240
Speaker 1: this room, she was living with her boyfriend. He was

344
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:40,479
Speaker 1: twenty Navy veteran and when they dated, he was also

345
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,880
Speaker 1: a medical student. And when you hear about the injuries,

346
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 1: you'll understand why he was smack in the middle of

347
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:51,240
Speaker 1: the radar for LAPD. He was at USC So we

348
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,800
Speaker 1: talked about this before. She is in LA a lot,

349
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,560
Speaker 1: and she's involved one way or the other in men

350
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,040
Speaker 1: who you know, range from young to middle.

351
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 2: Aged, and connections based out of LA somebody that she

352
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,680
Speaker 2: potentially could reach out to if she needed a favor

353
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 2: or she needed a place to stay, possibly even cash

354
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 2: for maybe Hanson. So you know, she's pretty well established

355
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:16,800
Speaker 2: in the LA area.

356
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I know that we described her

357
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 1: before as erratic and some you know, kind of despondent,

358
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,199
Speaker 1: but she really had a lot of people who liked

359
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: her for one reason or the other, and people who

360
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,479
Speaker 1: wanted to help her. And then it sounded like, you know,

361
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,400
Speaker 1: she outgrew her welcome. What was the Benjamin Franklin. You're

362
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 1: not going to know this. The Benjamin Franklin quote, like

363
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,440
Speaker 1: house guests are like fish. You should get rid of

364
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,920
Speaker 1: both of them within three days. Isn't that what they quote?

365
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:44,399
Speaker 3: I've never heard of that in my life. That what

366
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:44,760
Speaker 3: you thought?

367
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: Trust me, it's a quote. So I don't know what

368
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 1: kind of house guests she was, but but she was

369
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:55,160
Speaker 1: definitely complicated. Let's get to San Diego and then we're

370
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,800
Speaker 1: quickly getting to La where a lot of this stuff happens. Okay,

371
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 1: So she goes down to San Diego and winter approaches

372
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 1: and the holidays are coming up, and she had told

373
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,879
Speaker 1: her friends that she was going to visit her sister

374
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 1: in Oakland. She did not do that. She caught the

375
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,399
Speaker 1: bus to San Diego. That night before her trip, she

376
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 1: had dinner with Mark Hanson, the older man, and then

377
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 1: she saw a guy that she was friends with at

378
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 1: Camp Cook who was Carl Baalsinger, and he took her

379
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:32,160
Speaker 1: to the Hollywood station and then she goes to San Diego.

380
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 1: So when she gets to San Diego, that's December ninth,

381
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 1: and she ends up at this all night Aztec Theater

382
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,280
Speaker 1: in San Diego and she secures a place to spend

383
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: the holidays by befriending the cashier, who was a woman

384
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 1: named Dorothy French. So like I said, likable woman, it

385
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 1: sounds like. But then the fish thing, she outstayed her

386
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 1: welcome because after the holidays January eighth, the French family

387
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 1: said you got to hit the road, and so she

388
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 1: So this is where she ultimately ends up. So she

389
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 1: ends up at the Biltmore and this will be interesting

390
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,880
Speaker 1: to talk about. This is a very upscale hotel. There

391
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 1: is a man who will talk about a little bit.

392
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 1: His name is Robert Red is his nickname Manly, And

393
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 1: this is a friend of hers. He was twenty five

394
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 1: years old and married salesman. He picks her up in

395
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 1: San Diego and he drives her to the Biltmore Hotel

396
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,880
Speaker 1: in downtown LA. He drops her off at six thirty pm.

397
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: So this is all we know about this last night,

398
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: he drops her off the hotel. He doesn't go in.

399
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 1: He says she's in the hotel, and she comes back

400
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 1: out at ten o'clock. She's wearing a black suit, white

401
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 1: fluffy blouse, black swede, high heels, white gloves. She heads

402
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 1: south on Olive Street, and then we don't know what

403
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 1: happened after that? We know the state that she was

404
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: found in, but she vanishes. We don't know what happened

405
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 1: in the hotel. Well, Paul asked me, well, was she

406
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 1: at the bar with anybody? Never reported any of that.

407
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: So she went in the hotel, came out, and then

408
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 1: that was that.

409
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,159
Speaker 2: Well, and so now here you have a twenty two

410
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 2: year old woman who's she's flopping right. She's down in

411
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 2: San Diego, she's making friends, she's very comfortable, just kind

412
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,160
Speaker 2: of probably sleeping on a sofa as the way I'm

413
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 2: imagining it to a point. And now she's up at

414
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 2: the Biltmore. How is she affording the Biltmore? Did somebody

415
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 2: give her cash? Does she steal cash from somebody? What

416
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,640
Speaker 2: are her actual financial resources?

417
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 3: But she gets.

418
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 2: Dropped off at the Biltmore at six point thirty. She's

419
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 2: last seen leaving at ten, and she's obviously made up,

420
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 2: she's dressing nicely. She's going out now she purposely. Is

421
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,959
Speaker 2: she going out to meet up with somebody? Is she

422
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: going out to have some fun, local bar, nightclub whatever?

423
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: Downtown La. We've already established she's very very familiar with

424
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 2: this area. She's very comfortable. Ten o'clock at walking out

425
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 2: of the Biltmore. One of the things I want to know,

426
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 2: which we don't have access to because the case file

427
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 2: hasn't been released, is once she was found to have

428
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 2: been last seen and had a room at the Biltmore,

429
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 2: did the investigators go and confirm that. Did they talk

430
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 2: to the front office staff? Did they check her room?

431
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 2: Were there any phone calls made from the room or

432
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 2: out of that room? Was there anything left at the

433
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 2: front desk for Elizabeth?

434
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 3: You know, your.

435
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: Typical investigator steps to compile and maybe see was there

436
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: some pre arrangement that happened after she was dropped off

437
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: by Manly. So that's what is interesting to me is

438
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 2: do they have that information or not?

439
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: And I think that Paul's bringing up a really good

440
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:57,479
Speaker 1: point in that because LAPD hasn't released everything clearly because

441
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 1: they want to work on the case currently too. What

442
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: that leads to is so much speculation. I mean, we

443
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: have to speculate too, because we don't have all of

444
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 1: the information. I mean, Paul will tell you later on

445
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: that they haven't released the official autopsy right from the time.

446
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: I understand he knows a lot of details about it.

447
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: But because of that, that's when you end up with

448
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: all of these people who have all different kinds of

449
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: theories because you have to speculate, and so that's one

450
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: of the things that's frustrating.

451
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: And anytime you have that speculation, that's where people when

452
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 2: there's gaps and knowledge, that's where people will fill those

453
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 2: gaps in and conspiracy theories come up.

454
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: Yep. Okay, So this case is very theatrical in a

455
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: lot of ways, and I'm going to illustrate that right now.

456
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: So there is a woman who ends up finding her body, okay,

457
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: and I'm going to describe that in a second, but

458
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: I do kind of want to get this out of

459
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: the way. It's clear to me that the LA newspapers

460
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: and magazines when they found key witnesses, they were asking

461
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: them to kind of reenact what happened. So this is

462
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: Betty Baron Zerr and this is a very dramatic photo.

463
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: She ends up calling the police because she discovers the body.

464
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: But I just didn't want you guys to be startled

465
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: because I saw what is happening. She's in full makeup

466
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: and so clearly they are trying to reenact something, and

467
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: I just thought this is an odd I really wanted

468
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: her to be in like a night code or something,

469
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: you know.

470
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: But it also with one photo illustrates that from the

471
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: very beginning, the media started setting a narrative on this

472
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: case because the media was out there at the crime

473
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: scene from the very get go oh.

474
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, huge case. Okay, I'm going to have two crime

475
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: scene photos. I am way more squeamish than any of

476
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: you out there, I promise, and so I made sure

477
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: that I only picked these two photos. You can't see anything,

478
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 1: but I think it was important for Paul to be

479
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: able to see, you know, where she was found before

480
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: we talk about what happened, but we shouldn't be able

481
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: to see her clearly here. Okay, let me tell you

482
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: what happens. So Betty is out with her daughter and

483
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: they're on South Norton Avenue in Limert Park, which is

484
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: seven miles southwest of downtown LA and on Norton there

485
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: is a vacant lot between thirty ninth and Colisseum and

486
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: she sees what appears to be opposed mannequin. So this

487
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: is the beginning of the scene. She starts describing it,

488
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 1: and it's this mannequin that she then figures out as

489
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: a body is just eight inches from the sidewalk, and

490
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: it is alabaster white skin body of a woman. She

491
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: is posed face up with elbows bent at right angles

492
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: and legs displayed just above the navel. Her torso is cleanly,

493
00:26:53,000 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 1: they think, surgically cut so that her body is completely bisected, right.

494
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 2: You know, And I think, you know, this is not

495
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 2: where I'm gonna be getting into too much graphic detail,

496
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 2: but this is one of those extrapolations here. Elizabeth's body

497
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: has been cut into through the waste. And historically people

498
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 2: involved in this case have said, well, must be done

499
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 2: by somebody with medical knowledge. And I know on previous

500
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 2: episodes where we've had dismemberments, there always seems to be

501
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 2: you know, that type of opinion.

502
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 3: And the reality is is.

503
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 2: What when I look at what happened to Elizabeth, there

504
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: is nothing about the transaction of her body that indicates

505
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 2: that anybody, this person had specialized medical knowledge.

506
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 3: You know, this is somebody who could have medical knowledge.

507
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 2: This is somebody that could be involved as a butcher,

508
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: a hunter, somebody. If you're getting into certain types of predators.

509
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: As they grow up, they kill, torture and dismember animals,

510
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: and they learn animal anatomy as a result, but it's

511
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: also just common sense. If you're going to cut a

512
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: body in half, the easiest place to do that is

513
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 2: through the abdomen, and the easiest place to cut through

514
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 2: the spine is between two of the vertebrae versus trying

515
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 2: to cut through bone with a knife. So from my perspective,

516
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 2: there is nothing about what I am seeing with the

517
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: transaction or any other aspect, and I'll get into that

518
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 2: later on that indicates you're dealing with somebody that had

519
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 2: to have medical training or was a surgeon. I do

520
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: think what's important, though, is that the cutting her body

521
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: in half.

522
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 3: When I take a look at.

523
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: The ends of the wounds, they are devoid of any hemorrhage.

524
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: She is absolutely dead at the time she is cut

525
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: in two. The offender is cutting her in two for

526
00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: transport purposes. He didn't start this transaction and cutting her

527
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: while she was still alive.

528
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting because when I, before you

529
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: and I started this show, I always thought about dismemberment

530
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: cases that this is just somebody who's, you know, kind

531
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: of a sick person. How could somebody do that? And

532
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: then Paul brings up the word packaging, which I had

533
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: never really heard before in that how do I get

534
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: rid of this person efficiently and carry them somewhere? You know,

535
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: which is why how a woman could carry a very

536
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: large man. And it's all about the packaging, which I

537
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: thought was interesting.

538
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: Well, and it also goes to even though Elizabeth is

539
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: not a real heavy woman, she's.

540
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 3: One hundred and fifteen pounds.

541
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: I think five four hundred and fifteen pounds, right, But

542
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifteen pounds is still one hundred and

543
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: fifteen pounds. If you've ever picked up a ninety pound

544
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: bag of cement, you go, well, that's heavy. Let alone

545
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: a floppy body that's one hundred and fifteen pounds. So

546
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: carrying two parts of a body that each are roughly

547
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: fifty to sixty pounds is a lot easier. Plus you're

548
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: able to hide those body parts easier within let's say

549
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: a vehicle.

550
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 3: There's no question the offender drove out to this location

551
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 3: in a vehicle. And you know.

552
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 2: Part of this aspect of looking at her, Kay talked

553
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: about how her arms are, you know, bent at the elbows. Well,

554
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: the reality is is her hands are above her head

555
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 2: on each side, she's laying face up, her lower body,

556
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: her legs are spread very wide.

557
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: The body is positions anatomically correct.

558
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: The upper part and the lower part are in the

559
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: right spatial situations, with the upper part slightly offset. This

560
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: is what we call posing. If this offender was just

561
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: dumping the body out of the car and trying to

562
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: get away as fast as possible, this is not how.

563
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 3: Elizabeth would be looking. She would just be.

564
00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: A pile right on this sidewalk. He has taken the

565
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: time to put her in this position. He is in

566
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: the process. He wants that shock, and so he is.

567
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: Now she's completely nude, She's been extensively cleaned. He has

568
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: purposely moved the upper body away from the lower body,

569
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 2: both in terms of distance away from each other as

570
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: well as offsetting. So anybody looking at this body would

571
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: go she's been cut in half.

572
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 3: Of course, the displaying of the legs.

573
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: She's absolutely nude, no articles of clothing on her body,

574
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: but the way that her legs are splayed is indicating

575
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: the sexual intent of this offender.

576
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 3: And then there's other injuries to her body.

577
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let me tell you, you know, a couple

578
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: more little details. And Betty goes and calls rightly, calls

579
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: the police. The two halves are about a foot apart,

580
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: which is dramatic to me. I mean, there is a

581
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: clear delineation between that. There are flies everywhere and no blood.

582
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: People make a lot of about this there's no blood,

583
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: and well, she's been cut in half, so the major

584
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: reservoirs of blood inside the human body have been opened up.

585
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: So the manipulation of this body after it's been cut

586
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 2: in half, you're going to have a lot of blood loss.

587
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 3: In addition, you've got extensive cleaning that's occurred from her.

588
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: However, when I'm looking at the crime scene photos, I'm

589
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: seeing blood smears on her right rib cage up into

590
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: our armpit. That looks like a bloody hand post problem,

591
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: you know, the offender's hand as he's manipulating the body.

592
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: There's actually blood staining on the right side of her

593
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: head like she had laid faced on the right side,

594
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: probably during transport. So this idea that there's absolutely no

595
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: blood in her body is like, it doesn't mean anything

596
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 2: to me. It's not like she was purposefully you know,

597
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: like hung up and you know, like what you see

598
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: with animals and her neck cut, that's not is what

599
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: is going on on here.

600
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 3: She's just lost the.

601
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 2: Primary reservoirs of blood in her body, and then as

602
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: those body parts are manipulated, some of the smaller reservoirs

603
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: of blood, of course, will.

604
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: Start seeping out.

605
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: I'm pretty confident that the offender probably did have some

606
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: blood stating inside its vehicle or whatever packaging material he

607
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 2: used to get those body parts out to this location.

608
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: Let me give you some details about the timeline, and

609
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: you can tell me what you think about this. Okay.

610
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: So she leaves the Biltmore at ten PM. She's discovered

611
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: by Betty the next day at ten forty five in

612
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: the morning. This is what they say post mortem lividity

613
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: is apparent on the top part of her entire body,

614
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: especially on her upper right leg. But rigor mortis hasn't

615
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: set in yet.

616
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: So libidity is after you die, your heart stops pumping,

617
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: the blood settles down to gravity. When the body is

618
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: turned over, that blood can then reposition itself inside the body,

619
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 2: But if the body is left in a position for

620
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: a long enough period of time, the blood will kind

621
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 2: of stick to where it's settled with gravity.

622
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 3: This is what we call lividity. So externally, we can

623
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 3: see this purplish hue on the body here. In this case,

624
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 3: you're starting to see lividity, which is described on the

625
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 3: upper side, let's say Elizabeth's thigh.

626
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: Yet her thigh is as if she were lying on

627
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: her back. That libidity is inconsistent with the position that

628
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: her lower body was found. That tells me that her

629
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: body was in a different position with her thigh face down,

630
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 2: the blood settling with gravity, and it was in that

631
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 2: position for a long enough period of time to where

632
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 2: now that blood has set, that lividity has set, and

633
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 2: then her body was manipulated. That's some sequence, some temporal

634
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: information that I can use to help start reconstructing what

635
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 2: happened to Elizabeth after she died. Can you go back

636
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 2: one slide to take a look at where her body

637
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 2: has been dumped? And again I use that term dump

638
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: in terms of where it's been deposited. The offender has

639
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: purposely chosen this location. Everything the offender has done about

640
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: where her body has been put is purposeful. If somebody's

641
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 2: just trying to hide her body, is he going to

642
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: be dumping it right off the side of the sidewalk

643
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: in a neighborhood. It was a woman out pushing her

644
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: baby in a stroller that found Elizabeth's body. He is

645
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 2: purposely choosing this location because he wants it found, and

646
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: he wants it found in that shocking state that he

647
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 2: posed her body in. For those that are involved in construction,

648
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: you know, the neighborhood construction, you know, obviously this is

649
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 2: the same street the neighborhood the contractors have already laid

650
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 2: the sidewalks, already formed the driveways in the street, and

651
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: probably all the other stuff, as there's going to be

652
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: a newer phase of construction happening in this neighborhood. He

653
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 2: chose this location because he knew he would be able

654
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 2: to spend the time to pose the body and not

655
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 2: be seen. He didn't go up to where the houses are,

656
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 2: but he knew, probably from familiarity, that in short order,

657
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 2: once you know, the sun comes up, her body was

658
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 2: going to be found.

659
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 3: Tells me he likely knew about.

660
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: This neighborhood ahead of time, so he must have some

661
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 2: familiarity with this particular part of La. Now, does that

662
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 2: mean he's a lifelong residence of La. No, It's just

663
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: like he is not just doing this kind of what

664
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 2: i'd call it a dump and dash type of thing,

665
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 2: where he's just finding a somewhat of an isolated location

666
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 2: getting rid of the body.

667
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 3: This is all purposeful.

668
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: He has planned this, and he is wanting attention, and

669
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 2: he is wanting to shock the people that are now

670
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: going to get involved in the case.

671
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: This will maybe change stuff for you. I just want

672
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: to be very clear on the timeline. So she leaves

673
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: the French family in San Diego on the eighth of January.

674
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: She goes the next day with Redmanly up to la

675
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: He drops her off at the Biltmore. That's January ninth.

676
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: She is discovered by Betty five to six days later.

677
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: So that's why there's a debate over her time of death.

678
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: Okay, And then I would say she was probably kept

679
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: a lie for a period of time.

680
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: That seems like a long time for it to be

681
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 1: a stranger or is that not a long time? I mean,

682
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: we've all heard the awful stories about people being kept

683
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 1: for years. I'm just wondering, what do you think.

684
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 2: You know, I think there's going to be some insight

685
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 2: as to not necessarily specifically who, but the type of

686
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: offender that killed Elizabeth. And you'll see where there is

687
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,280
Speaker 2: a possibility that that offender could have kept Elizabeth alive

688
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 2: for a period of time.

689
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: Let me tell you one more detail. When they move

690
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: her body to their vehicle, the deputies noticed that the

691
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: grass under the body is still wet with dew, and

692
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 1: they think that that must mean that she was murdered

693
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 1: somewhere else about ten to twelve hours earlier, and brought

694
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: to the site earlier in the morning.

695
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 2: Sure, so the du has set and then the body

696
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 2: is placed on it, and by ten forty five in

697
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 2: the morning, the uncovered grass is dry, but the grass

698
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 2: that's underneath her or the plant material is still wet.

699
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 2: So I think that's actually a good observation. Doesn't necessarily

700
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 2: it shortens the window. But because when you start talking

701
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 2: about estimating the time of the time of death, you know,

702
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,399
Speaker 2: these are big windows we're talking about. So he's say,

703
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 2: you know, pathologists saying ten or twelve hours. It could

704
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: be hours on either side of that range.

705
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: So at this point, do you want to get into

706
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: more detail about what's on the scene or have you

707
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 1: covered everything as far as the way that she's found.

708
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, in terms of the observations

709
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 2: at the scene or just from initial observations at autopsy,

710
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 2: and most people who are familiar with the case are

711
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: aware that her mouth has been cut on both sides

712
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 2: from the corner of the mouth extending towards each ear,

713
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 2: and so that's a very visual aspect that even the

714
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 2: you know, the media and the person that found Elizabeth

715
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: notes that that is a very startling looking injury that

716
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 2: the offender inflicted. The other thing that's important to know

717
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 2: at this point in time is that Elizabeth both risks

718
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: showed evidence of binding marks. Both ankles showed that as

719
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: well as there appear to have been some cordage of

720
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 2: some type that had been wrapped around her neck.

721
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 3: However, it had not been used to strangle her.

722
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 1: Okay, so they found several fibers, which they concluded were

723
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: bristles from a stiff brush, are found in her facial lacerations,

724
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: her breast wounds, her pubic region. On a tire track

725
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: found in a nearby driveway, there is a smear that

726
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: might have been left by the heel of a bloody shoe,

727
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: and other blood spots are found one inch from the

728
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: driveway's curb and on a canvas bag emptied of cement.

729
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: They eventually match Elizabe's fingerprints to the ones on she

730
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 1: got arrested. So that's how they were able to idea right.

731
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 3: You know, and so you know, of course the brush bristles.

732
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 2: You know, there's no question Elizabeth's body was extensively cleaned.

733
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 2: And it's more than just you know, rinsing the body

734
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 2: in a bathtub. The effect is actually taking a brush,

735
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 2: it sounds like, in order to be able to more

736
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: thoroughly scrub her body. Now this is in the day

737
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: well before DNA and a BO testing, you know, So

738
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: why is he spending so much effort to clean the body?

739
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: You know?

740
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 2: Part of it I thought of, well, is he concerned

741
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 2: about bloody fingerprints that he may be leaving behind on

742
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: her body, which is a possibility, you know.

743
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 3: But also there's just a practical aspect.

744
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 2: He's wanting to transport Elizabeth's body and if it's very,

745
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 2: very bloody, you know, now it's it's a little bit

746
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 2: more care that he has to take not to get

747
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: the blood in his vehicle or on other things. So

748
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 2: he may just be I need, I need to clean

749
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: this body up. I also think there may be other

750
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 2: things going on, and I'll address that later.

751
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to ask if you've seen this

752
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: situation in more modern cases where it's not any of that.

753
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: It's like a fetish or something like they feel that

754
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: needs to cleanse the victim.

755
00:41:58,960 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 3: Well, you know.

756
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 2: When I've had cases in which victims, and sometimes they

757
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 2: are sexual assault victims, that are made to clean, they

758
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 2: are made to go in the shower, and sometimes you

759
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: have other bodies where like I've got one case in

760
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: which bleach had been extensively used on this woman's body.

761
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 2: You know, in this day and age, offenders are paying

762
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: attention to how they can be identified. And of course

763
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 2: DNA is a huge thing, and so they're understanding, I

764
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 2: need to get rid of the DNA containing evidence. That's

765
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 2: where in the nineteen forties, what is the offender thinking

766
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 2: could be used to get him caught and it would

767
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 2: be fingerprints back then.

768
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: Now listen to this, woof. I don't understand people who

769
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: think like this. So we have a lot of suspects.

770
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: In the forties, there were during the initial investigation sixty

771
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: people who confessed. Can you imagine, I mean, poor I

772
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: don't want to feel sorry for LAPD too much, but

773
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 1: poor LPD. And now this is even worseful. So early

774
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: in the investigation, the detectives received more than four hundred

775
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:06,439
Speaker 1: clues from amateur sleuths, and by the time twenty twenty one,

776
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 1: just four years ago, comes about, there are the number

777
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: of tips is so great that LAPD had to stop

778
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: accepting calls about the case. Yeah, you know, I mean

779
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: it's incredible. So five hundred people confessed by ninety.

780
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 2: Six, So well, you know, this is where you know,

781
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: people will criticize law enforcement. Why doesn't law enforcement release

782
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 2: more information about cases. It's because unless you have that

783
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 2: identifying evidence like DNA evidence that you know and can

784
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 2: prove came from the killer, you need to be able

785
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 2: to have details that during an interview, the actual killer

786
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: would be the only one that would know those details.

787
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 2: That's what we call holdbacks because reality is is that

788
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 2: law enforcement sees these nut jobs that are willing to

789
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: confess to a homicide like this. This is not just

790
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 2: in these high profile cases. You have these types of

791
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 2: individuals that will come forward in the most mundane case,

792
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: or you have other people out there in the general

793
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: public that are sending in, you know, during the time

794
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 2: of this case, handwritten letters and they think they have

795
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: some sort of knowledge that's going to help law enforcement

796
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: solve the case. And they're all false leads, and then

797
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 2: now today because of the Internet and all these online

798
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 2: sluice and some of them are not going to disparage

799
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 2: them all. Some of them are really talented.

800
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 1: Don't disparage them because some of them are probably here.

801
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I bore the brunt of the early online

802
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: sleuthing community, both for the Zodiac and the Golden State

803
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 2: killer case. And I can tell you it is overwhelming

804
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: when you are a so investigator and you have thirty

805
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: people giving you tips and asking, well, what have you

806
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 2: done with my tip? I can tell your San Francisco

807
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: PD basically for Zodiac is going We're done because we

808
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 2: can't deal with the amount of stuff that's coming in.

809
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, let's talk about our first vible suspect. It's

810
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: our man read Manly, the twenty five year old married

811
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,439
Speaker 1: salesman who was the last person beside the person who

812
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: killed her to see Elizabeth Short. So he is arrested

813
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: because of that, right, so they put him in custody,

814
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: search him, question him, and then the beginning of more

815
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: theatrical photos. That's a he's taking a polygraph test.

816
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 3: He looks suspicious, doesn't he have?

817
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: Even in the forties, I mean My second book was

818
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,479
Speaker 1: based in the twenties. Even in the twenties, they knew

819
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: that polygraphs should not be admitted in court. So he passed.

820
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: Just for the record, he passes two of them.

821
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 2: So he passes two polygraphs. Does he have an alibi?

822
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: He does have an alibi, and as we'll find out,

823
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: he is trying to be helpful in the case, but

824
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: we don't know how hopeful.

825
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, so, I mean this is you know,

826
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 2: the investigation one oh one, the last person to see

827
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,839
Speaker 2: Elizabeth alive. You know, it's like, okay, what happened after

828
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 2: you two parted ways? And did you guys reconvene at

829
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 2: some point after she left the Biltmore.

830
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:22,280
Speaker 1: Carl Passinger was the old friend, it doesn't even say boyfriend,

831
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: old friend from Camp Cook and he's the one that

832
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: took her to the Hollywood bus station to go down

833
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 1: to San Diego for the holidays to live with the Frenches.

834
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: So he's interviewed the day that Red is released. Carl

835
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:41,760
Speaker 1: looked suspicious the first of many and in forty one,

836
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 1: Bosinger's schoolmate in Kansas City was murdered. Her name was

837
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: Layla Adel Welsh. She was a beauty pageant queen in

838
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: the late nineteen thirties. So she was beaten with a

839
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: stonemason's hammer, her throat was slashed with a sharp seven

840
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: inch long your knife, and then her killer fled with

841
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 1: a piece of flesh cut from her buttocks. These details

842
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,720
Speaker 1: are tame compared to what we're going to be talking about.

843
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: So this is, you know, another warning. So, her brother

844
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 1: was tried for the murder, but he was acquitted, and

845
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: then he moves to La. Carl moves to La and

846
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: Detective Brown tries to get in touch with him, but

847
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: learns that he's left the state, which is suspicious, I'll

848
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: grant you. They track him down to Saint Louis, Missouri,

849
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: and he is forced to take a polygraph test and

850
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: he passes.

851
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 2: Sure, you know, And this is where in a case

852
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 2: like this, and you're digging into Elizabeth's life and you

853
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: run across somebody that has a connection to her that

854
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 2: also is associated with another horrific crime, you're going to

855
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 2: pay attention to that. However, I can't tell you how

856
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: many times looking at suspects do I find weird circumstances

857
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 2: that initially go, oh, that seems important, and then it

858
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: turns out I end up eliminating that guy with DNA

859
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: and it was.

860
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 3: Just a coincidence.

861
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 2: One of the things I've experienced personally with Golden State

862
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 2: Killer is that when you cast a wide enough net,

863
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 2: let's say, I work to go and investigate every single

864
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 2: man in the audience, I can guarantee I will find

865
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 2: some of you that hass weird circumstances where I'm going

866
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 2: to go, you know what, I better dig into him

867
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 2: some more. That is just part of working these types

868
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 2: of cases. I can't say his name is Carl, I

869
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: can't say Carl is Elizabeth Killer, or I can't eliminate

870
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: him either, you know. But it doesn't necessarily rise to

871
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 2: a level to where I'm blown away based off of

872
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 2: the fact that he's just associated with another woman who

873
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 2: was horrifically killed.

874
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 3: He wasn't even convicted of that crime.

875
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 1: So now we've insulted the audience. Who are the amateur

876
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 1: slits and all the men it looks like in the audience. Okay,

877
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: So to me, this is the most kind of tangible

878
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: set of clues that we have. So there is a

879
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: package of her belongings that arrives eight days after her

880
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: body is found and it's sent to the Examiner newspaper.

881
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: The envelope has a faint odor of gasoline, kerosene or

882
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: rubbing alcohol. There are you can see cutout letters on

883
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: the front. It reads, here is Dahlia's belongings letter to follow.

884
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: Inside there are twenty three items belonging to Elizabeth confirmed,

885
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: I mean, including her social Security card. So there's newspaper excerpts, photographs,

886
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: business cards, birth certificates, social Security card, and that obituary

887
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: I told you about that she carried around. And there's

888
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: also an address book from Mark Hanson, the Danish businessman,

889
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: the fifty five, and so there's that detail too, and

890
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: I can tell you about that, But you want to

891
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: talk first.

892
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 2: Well, you know, these belongings to me look like, you know,

893
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 2: items that she likely would keep in her purse. She's

894
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: moving around so much that she probably would keep those

895
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 2: with her. So when she's setting out to go do

896
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 2: whatever she was going to do that night, she's got

897
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: her purse with her. The killer ends up acquiring these belongings.

898
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 2: And then this is entirely consistent with the psychology of

899
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: how her body is posed for the shock.

900
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 3: He wants attention. Now he's seeking attention. He could have

901
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 3: sent these into law enforcement. Do you think the law

902
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 3: enforcement would have run to the newspaper and say, look

903
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 3: what we got. No, he sent them purposefully to a

904
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 3: media outlet. What does this sound like? Zodiac?

905
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 2: Right in terms of the type of psychology I want attention,

906
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 2: And I'm going to tell you right now now, whoever

907
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 2: killed Elizabeth is not the Zodiac. But I'm just saying

908
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:09,359
Speaker 2: that there is this narcissistic need to reach out. We

909
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: see this with BTK and Dennis Rader. This is very

910
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: different than Joseph Dangelo, the Golden State killer, who does

911
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:18,720
Speaker 2: not want any attention at all.

912
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 1: There's more stuff, as I had mentioned, in this package

913
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: that was sent. So there is in her belongings a

914
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: brown imitation leatherbound book with gold letters nineteen thirty seven

915
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: as you can see, and Mark and Hanson printed on

916
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: the cover. Inside the addresses for nearly seventy five men

917
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 1: are listed in Elizabeth's handwriting, even though the envelope has

918
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: been dallased with something gasoline I think is what I

919
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: had heard last and handled by a lot of postal workers.

920
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: The detective does for fingerprints, but he can't find anything,

921
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: so gasoline or any kind of would that just be

922
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: a no go for people pulling prints off something like that.

923
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting if you go back to the last slide.

924
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 2: You know, as I look at these first, even though

925
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 2: there's a maybe an odor of kerosene or gasoline on

926
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 2: these items, you know, there's actual ink on these items

927
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 2: that with that type of solvent would start to run.

928
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 3: I'm not seeing that.

929
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:27,800
Speaker 2: Plus, the here is Dahlia's belongings that you know, magazine

930
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 2: article words out of magazine that's been you know, taped

931
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 2: or glued onto there. You can see these smudges. Well,

932
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 2: that to me looks like it's it's been processed by

933
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: a fingerprint processing technique called n anhydrant. So I'm questioning

934
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: whether or not these items were truly doused in a solvent.

935
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 2: There may have been an odor, but that may be

936
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: more because maybe they were up against something in this

937
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 2: guy's trunk and some of that odor got onto these

938
00:52:58,280 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 2: these paper items.

939
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 3: It's just like you pump gas.

940
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 2: You know, and you get in your car and you

941
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 2: can smell the gas on your hands. I have a

942
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 2: feeling that's more like that, because I'm not seeing evidence

943
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 2: that these things were saturated with a solvent.

944
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: If this was some kind of an effort by the

945
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: killer to cover up something, does that mean between that

946
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: and scrubbing her body? Is that law enforcement or somebody

947
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: out there who has knowledge like that.

948
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 2: It has to be right well, or as an reasonably

949
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 2: intelligent person that is understanding that there are things that

950
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 2: law enforcement does that could get him caught, and so

951
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 2: he's taking steps. This is risk management by the offender.

952
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 2: And so you see offenders that are well, i'll say,

953
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 2: a sophisticated intelligent that will plan their crimes to be

954
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 2: able to carry out the crimes so.

955
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 3: They can get away with them.

956
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 2: And then there's the post offense behavior in terms of

957
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:58,240
Speaker 2: how do I continue to do things to not get caught.

958
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:03,240
Speaker 2: But he is taking elevation risk by communicating. He's basically saying, look,

959
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 2: I've got her belongings. And you know he's taken the

960
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 2: time not to have his handwriting. But it's something where

961
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 2: he is reaching out to law enforcement. So there is

962
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 2: a compulsion that he has. Part of his psychology is

963
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 2: to need this attention. He wants this case to blow

964
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 2: up as big as possible.

965
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: Well, there are an awful lot of things people reaching

966
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 1: out writing letters at this point, once this information comes out,

967
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: there's a story that I told you that I think

968
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: I'll just throw out there to the audience listeners. Here,

969
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 1: the examiner says that they've got a phone call from

970
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: a mysterious person saying I'm going to send this package,

971
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: you know, And it happened the day before the package arrived,

972
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 1: And maybe this will be kind of the beginning of

973
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: the investigation, but we talked about maybe dismissing that kind

974
00:54:58,320 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: of a phone call.

975
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,760
Speaker 2: This is where if the killer is calling into a reporter,

976
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 2: is that reporter immediately calling up law enforcement said I

977
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 2: just got a phone call from this guy.

978
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 3: That's what I would want to know.

979
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: How early was this documented before a package actually arrived.

980
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 2: I kind of suspect that once the package arrived, the

981
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 2: reporters said, oh, I remember receiving a phone call. Then

982
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 2: I questioned, is is that reporter telling the truth or

983
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 2: is he looking for attention himself.

984
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 1: Well, they get a bunch of letters to different newspaper

985
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 1: outlets and nothing can be attributed directly to the killer

986
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: except for the package of her stuff, and the police

987
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: suspect that the journalists are actually writing the letters themselves

988
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 1: to get attention. For the newspapers, and so any letter

989
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 1: that came that could have really been from the killer

990
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: was pretty much immediately dismissed because there was no information

991
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: that was unique. And I know how important you say

992
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:55,359
Speaker 1: that is.

993
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 2: Well, and again, here's now you have people who are

994
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 2: wanting to insert themselves into the invent instigation.

995
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:02,399
Speaker 3: Either they genuinely think that they.

996
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 2: Are helping, or they get some level of satisfaction from

997
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 2: the fact that they are part of the investigation, even

998
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 2: if it's so small as sending in a letter saying, hey,

999
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 2: you need to look at so and so.

1000
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: I think the LA Police Museum has a great display,

1001
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 1: which is all They call them crank letters. That's literally

1002
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 1: what the display is, crank letters in black Dahlia. So

1003
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: I'm wanting to put that one up. Okay, another big

1004
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: break comes with the dumpster what I refer to as

1005
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 1: the dumpster discovery. So January twenty fifth, Elizabeth's black patent

1006
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 1: leather purse and one of her swayed high heeled shoes

1007
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: are recovered, and they had been reported the previous day

1008
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 1: by a cafe owner who found it in the dumpster.

1009
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,720
Speaker 1: He had spotted the items and this was about fifteen

1010
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 1: blocks about two miles from where Elizabeth's body had been found.

1011
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: He says they were not there the night before Thursday night,

1012
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 1: the two days before, and he said that by the

1013
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: time the police acted, the trash had been collected and

1014
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: dumped at a nearby byproducts plant. And it's you know,

1015
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 1: eight miles away from the cafe at this point, and

1016
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 1: they find the purse and the shoes. I'll tell you

1017
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: in a second the rest of the story about who

1018
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: identifies these things. But it's a big question mark whether

1019
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: this purse and this shoe belonged to Elizabeth.

1020
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 2: Right, you know, And that becomes a question because if

1021
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 2: that is her purse, and then he had the killer

1022
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 2: actually malely or sending in her belongings, you know, the

1023
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 2: purse is the source of that type of material, you know,

1024
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 2: but the question is is that truly her purse. In

1025
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: this day and age, we might be able to do

1026
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 2: that with DNA or fingerprint technology. There isn't enough unique

1027
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 2: markings on this purse, at least on the outside, to

1028
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 2: be able to say, well, that just matches exactly, you know,

1029
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 2: it has to be elizabeth purse.

1030
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: So Red is back in the picture, the one who

1031
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 1: dropped her off in La to begin with, and he

1032
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 1: identifies the purse and the shoe is hers. The issue

1033
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: is is that friends that she had said, we've never

1034
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: seen that purse. That is not her purse. And that's

1035
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: when the question is, is this even this woman's purse.

1036
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: Nobody knows for sure. Red says, in dramatic fashion, I

1037
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: can still smell her perfume on it, even though it's

1038
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: been in a dumpster for however many days, So I

1039
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: don't know if Fred's reliable source here.

1040
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 2: Well, and you know here, you first, they have this

1041
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 2: suspect handling evidence while he's smoking a cigarette no gloves,

1042
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 2: so there's a problem there.

1043
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 3: And second, this looks like it.

1044
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 1: Though I don't think he's lit that cigarette yet.

1045
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 3: It still helps. But there's a photographer, you know, capturing

1046
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 3: a photo of this. Is this the media reporter doing?

1047
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 2: I mean, this is just showing the media contamination in

1048
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 2: this particular case, yeah, I mean, and other types of contamination.

1049
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: And you know, the cafe owner says, I have no

1050
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 1: idea they took this away, this stuff away before after

1051
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: he had reported it, so he doesn't know whether it's

1052
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: hers or not anyway. Okay, so now we return to

1053
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: Mark Hanson. This is another angle of him. So they

1054
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: start to focus on Mark Hanson, and I cannot understate

1055
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 1: enough how important it was for them to solve this case.

1056
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 1: I mean, the pressure was really incredible on LAPD and

1057
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: I think in some ways still is probably otherwise they'd

1058
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: be looking for all kinds of help. And so they

1059
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: are looking again. They go back to every man that

1060
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 1: they could find in her life, and they end up

1061
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: finding some more. But they look at Mark Hanson because

1062
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 1: they start talking to mutual friends and they said that

1063
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 1: apparently Mark had a yen for Elizabeth and he treated

1064
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: her differently than other women that he had had in

1065
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 1: his life. He had two dresses tailored for her, he

1066
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 1: was ticked off when she would bring her boyfriend around.

1067
00:59:56,640 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 1: When they questioned him, he was giving contradictory statements, but

1068
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: not about, you know, anything that really had to do.

1069
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 1: It was more of like their relationship. It wasn't details

1070
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 1: about the case. But they search his house and buget also,

1071
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 1: and they can't find any evidence. What do you think

1072
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: about that? You know, he's directly in her life and

1073
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 1: he liked her, sure.

1074
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 3: You know.

1075
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 2: But at the same time, this is where as I

1076
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 2: evaluate this case, you know upfront, I can't necessarily say,

1077
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 2: you know, of like the names of the men in

1078
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 2: her life, anybody stands out above anybody else. I need

1079
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,440
Speaker 2: to have a better understanding of the type of offender

1080
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 2: I'm looking for, as well as what kind of physical

1081
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 2: evidence might be present that I could use to either

1082
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 2: corroborate or refute statements that Hanson is saying. As of

1083
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 2: right now, he's just a man in her life. There

1084
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 2: needs to be something more that says, Okay, there's something

1085
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 2: about him that potentially could indicate that he is her

1086
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 2: killer right now out anything that you've.

1087
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 3: Told me is just it's just facts about him.

1088
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean they're not going to let go

1089
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 1: of him just yet, but they're becoming very frustrated. So

1090
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 1: now we're back to the surgical precision and how they're

1091
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:15,919
Speaker 1: convinced that, I mean, all the way back to Jack

1092
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 1: the Ripper times. We know that with profiling, if there's

1093
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: something that looks even remotely like a doctor did it,

1094
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 1: poor physicians were under fire for it. So given the

1095
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 1: precision of her body, the way it was cut, medical

1096
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: professionals become the early suspects. So Marvin Marvelus, he was

1097
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 1: the one who was her boyfriend. He was a medical

1098
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 1: student at USC. She would live with him off and on,

1099
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 1: but she was also living at Mark Hanson's at the

1100
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: same time. He had gone through part of the war

1101
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 1: and was very traumatized PTSD, and people said that it

1102
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 1: changed his personality pretty directly. In one psychiatric report, it

1103
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: said that that Marvin and had time and training where

1104
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: he had ample evidence of open aggression, being resentful over

1105
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 1: not granted instruction in operating technique, which it sounds like

1106
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 1: was probably a good idea, and not to give him

1107
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: instruction on that there was no physical evidence though, no, well.

1108
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:19,919
Speaker 2: There's nothing there to be frank, you know this is

1109
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 2: this is often what I see because I have fallen

1110
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 2: into traps myself where I start taking a look at

1111
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 2: certain circumstances about a suspect and then go, oh, there's

1112
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 2: a there's significance in the case to these circumstances.

1113
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 3: Where I have failed and where I often.

1114
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 2: See other investigators or even especially in the online community,

1115
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 2: is people are missing. You have to establish a nexus

1116
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 2: to the crime. You're looking for the person who actually

1117
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 2: committed the crime, not somebody who had some sort of

1118
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 2: geographic location to the general proximity where the crime occurred.

1119
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 2: You need more, you know, and this is where you

1120
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 2: really if you start getting somebody that you're really digging

1121
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 2: in into, you start narrowing the scope, if you will,

1122
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 2: starting to focus in where Now all of a sudden,

1123
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 2: this man is showing a nexus to the crime one

1124
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:11,840
Speaker 2: way or another.

1125
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 3: There's something that is now.

1126
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 2: Popping where you go, Okay, now I've got something real

1127
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 2: versus yeah, he might have been in the area.

1128
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 1: So now we're going to go to a mysterious location

1129
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: where police wonder if this is where she was killed. Okay,

1130
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: So we're at the Astor Hotel. And in nineteen forty nine,

1131
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 1: there's a new investigator named Frank Jamison. He takes the lead.

1132
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 1: He learned, now this is two years after this happens.

1133
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 1: He learned that there were bloody clothes that had been

1134
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: found in a room at the Astor Hotel, which was

1135
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 1: about four miles from where Elizabeth Short's body was found.

1136
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 1: It was described by people at the hotel hotel workers

1137
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: that found it, so it was blood soaked mattress and blankets.

1138
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 1: There were men's shoe prints that had been smeared and tracked,

1139
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 1: and human feces was all over the apartment. The astor

1140
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 1: had an unusual guest according to people who were there.

1141
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 1: He was a man from Europe that was unusual for them,

1142
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 1: and he stayed at the motel around the same time.

1143
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 1: I think they thought he was creepy. And now they

1144
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 1: go back to Mark Hanson because he's Danish. So this

1145
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: is where we're going here, is you know, they find

1146
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 1: this creepy guy. They have absolutely no physical evidence from

1147
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 1: this blood soaked scene because it happened, you know, a

1148
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: year and a half or two years earlier.

1149
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 2: Sure, and of course you know the blood soaked mattress,

1150
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 2: the human feces, and I'll be talking about that in

1151
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 2: a little bit. You know, there is some significant aspects

1152
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 2: to that because of course we know Elizabeth has blood significantly.

1153
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 2: There's also aspects related to feces associated with her. Take

1154
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 2: a look at this motel, this is a motel in

1155
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 2: la Is there a chance that there was another crime

1156
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 2: that committed was committed.

1157
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 3: That had nothing to do with Elizabeth?

1158
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 2: In law enforcement, I've been in hotel rooms and where

1159
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 2: now you have there's a lot of blood in here.

1160
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 3: It happens.

1161
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 2: Is that your phone, this is my my Google assistant

1162
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 2: it just started answering a question for me.

1163
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 1: I need you not that guy.

1164
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 2: So, you know, I think it would have been nice

1165
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 2: that somebody had reported that earlier and then they could

1166
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 2: actually have that evidence. But now you're still you're still

1167
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 2: talk about the nineteen forties. You know, at best, maybe

1168
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 2: a bo testing similar type. Now, I think you had

1169
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 2: mentioned to me offline that she was type AB. Yeah,

1170
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 2: you know, and that's a rare blood type. So that

1171
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 2: would have been something that I would raise my eyebrows about.

1172
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 2: But two years later, and you know, the lead now

1173
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 2: is as well, who is the creepy guy? And then

1174
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 2: now is there a way to associate him with Elizabeth's death?

1175
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 1: So far, you know that this guy is not Mark Hansen,

1176
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 1: is not directly connected except that he was in her

1177
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 1: circle so far, and he had feelings for her. We

1178
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 1: don't understand the relationship. Okay, Now we're going to get

1179
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:21,439
Speaker 1: into I would say two of the most publicized because

1180
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 1: they were in books theories that are out here. There's

1181
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 1: a doctor who sounds like an awful person. His name

1182
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 1: is George Hodell. Oh see I heard it. Somebody knows

1183
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 1: about the same. Okay, So Detective Jamison, who had taken

1184
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 1: over and now again, you guys, this is a year

1185
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,919
Speaker 1: and a half to two years after this happened. He's

1186
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 1: taken over. He is starting to look at George because

1187
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 1: this guy is number one of a neereal disease specialist

1188
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: and a sex offender. So he first comes to the

1189
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: detective's attention in forty nine because his fourteen year old daughter,

1190
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 1: this is him. Ten year old daughter accused him of

1191
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 1: hosting orgies, sexually assaulting her, and pregnating her and then

1192
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 1: forcing her to terminate the pregnancy. This is what the

1193
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: doctor said. And he goes to trial and he says

1194
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 1: she's a pathological liar. So to prove their point, the

1195
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: defense asks the daughter if she had told one of

1196
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 1: the you know, male boarders that her father was a

1197
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:32,960
Speaker 1: murderer of black Dahlia, and she said she doesn't remember,

1198
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:36,439
Speaker 1: and so they're trying to prove, you know, that she's

1199
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 1: a liar. And he is acquitted, and they bug his

1200
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 1: residence now in nineteen fifty because black Dahlia, anytime anybody

1201
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 1: mentions Black Dahlia connected to a man, this is at

1202
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 1: this point, they're a suspect in a case. So they

1203
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 1: bug his residence they record him saying, supposing I did

1204
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 1: kill the black Dahlia, they couldn't prove it now, but

1205
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 1: when they try to link him to Elizabeth, the evidence

1206
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 1: doesn't hold up, but his son will circle back to

1207
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:10,439
Speaker 1: it decades later.

1208
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1209
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the interesting thing about you know,

1210
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 2: at least what is really known about George Hodell as

1211
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 2: he was an incestuous child molester. So he's a sex offender,

1212
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,680
Speaker 2: and part of an investigation into a sexually motivated homicide

1213
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 2: is to start taking a look at, well, who are

1214
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 2: all the sex offenders at any particular area, and start

1215
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,200
Speaker 2: digging down on them, even if there is no known

1216
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 2: connection between that sex offender and in the victim, like

1217
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:45,759
Speaker 2: with Elizabeth. All I can really say at this point,

1218
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:47,639
Speaker 2: I can't tell you one way or another if he's

1219
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 2: the one that is Elizabeth's killer or not. I know

1220
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:55,080
Speaker 2: that I have read his son's book, and I'm unconvinced

1221
01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:57,720
Speaker 2: about the evidence that he has put there linking his

1222
01:08:57,840 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 2: father to Elizabeth's case.

1223
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:02,640
Speaker 1: And so when we talk about that theory, so, as

1224
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 1: Paul mentioned, his son has written I think several books.

1225
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 1: In ninety nine, when George Hodel dies, his son, who

1226
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 1: was a former LAPD detective becomes convinced that George was

1227
01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 1: a sato sexual serial killer. I think sato sexual part

1228
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:22,800
Speaker 1: is probably pretty accurate. I don't know about the serial

1229
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 1: killer part. And he believes that not only was his

1230
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:33,800
Speaker 1: dad the killer of Elizabeth Short, but also the Red

1231
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 1: Lipstick killer, the Green Twig Killer, and the Zodiac killer.

1232
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 1: Two out of three. I think we should probably do

1233
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 1: on the show, obviously, you know, because they sound really interesting,

1234
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 1: and I know you've looked into this sort of thing,

1235
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 1: this accusation.

1236
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 3: You know, I am intimately familiar with the Zodiac case.

1237
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 2: I did some work on that, and that was a

1238
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:55,520
Speaker 2: case that occurred, you know, literally where in my backyard

1239
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 2: where I did my entire law enforcement career.

1240
01:09:58,439 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 3: I do not.

1241
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:03,480
Speaker 2: I think what happened to Elizabeth Short is a completely

1242
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 2: different type of offender than who the Zodiac is, even

1243
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 2: though there is this narcissistic want for attention. But as

1244
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:17,679
Speaker 2: I get into shortly, you will see that the types

1245
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:21,080
Speaker 2: of crimes that these two offenders committed are so diametrically

1246
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:24,320
Speaker 2: opposite from each other that I don't see where there

1247
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 2: is a connection now these other things, the lipstick killer.

1248
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 3: Out of Chicago, or the Green Twig Killer.

1249
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about those crimes at all, but

1250
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 2: I often will see where people will start to what

1251
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:40,639
Speaker 2: I call overlink cases that they think all the same

1252
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:45,920
Speaker 2: offender committed these different series, and that's just a real phenomenon.

1253
01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:51,440
Speaker 2: I've seen the opposite where now everybody talks about linkage blindness.

1254
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 2: It really does come down to evaluating the core of

1255
01:10:56,280 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 2: what happened to Elizabeth Short and then that is where

1256
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:05,120
Speaker 2: I would probably say, I'm thinking there might be over

1257
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:10,879
Speaker 2: linkage with George Odell being these other serial killers, particularly

1258
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:13,479
Speaker 2: with Zodiac. I can't really speak about the other series.

1259
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,439
Speaker 1: Okay. The other theory that I've read about is from

1260
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 1: Larry Harnish, who was a writer for the La Times

1261
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:22,960
Speaker 1: for twenty seven years. He was a future story writer,

1262
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 1: and he believes that it was Walter Alonso Bailey, who

1263
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 1: was a surgeon who specialized in hysterectomies. In the stectomies.

1264
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 1: He has been proposed as a suspect because even well

1265
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 1: Bailey wasn't even on the radar at the time for LAPD,

1266
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 1: anybody else or the FBI, but his office was just

1267
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: a couple of blocks from the Biltmore where Elizabeth was

1268
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:51,600
Speaker 1: his estranged wife. Ruth lived on Norton Avenue, just a

1269
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 1: block from where her body was found. And there is

1270
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:57,439
Speaker 1: this is what I thought was most interesting. There is

1271
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,639
Speaker 1: evidence that Bailey and the Short family knew each other.

1272
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:04,559
Speaker 1: That Bailey's daughter, whose name was Barbara, was the maid

1273
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 1: of honor at Elizabeth's sister's wedding, So there's at least

1274
01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 1: that connection. I think what ends up happening, and what

1275
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:15,760
Speaker 1: you know, Harnish says, is that Bailey's life was in

1276
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:18,639
Speaker 1: shambles when she was murdered. At this point, he had

1277
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 1: not held a professional position for several years. He never

1278
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:25,919
Speaker 1: recovered from the death of his son, who was eleven.

1279
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:29,720
Speaker 1: He deserted his wife for a younger woman. He had

1280
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:33,879
Speaker 1: a big change in personality. He died of natural causes

1281
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:39,719
Speaker 1: a year later, okay after Elizabeth died, but the cause

1282
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:43,160
Speaker 1: was a lesion on the brain that can cause personality

1283
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:47,400
Speaker 1: changes as well as dementia and you know, urges for

1284
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 1: bizarre behaviors the way they described it. But there's still nothing,

1285
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:53,840
Speaker 1: no conclusive anything with him either.

1286
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 2: And this is again we get into where there's some

1287
01:12:56,640 --> 01:13:00,760
Speaker 2: circumstantial aspect. His offices near downtown in La where she

1288
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:04,400
Speaker 2: was last seen. His ex wife is living on the

1289
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:06,480
Speaker 2: actual road where her body.

1290
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 3: Is, so you could see.

1291
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 2: Okay, he's he's really upset with his ex wife. He

1292
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:13,759
Speaker 2: goes out, there's this horrific murder on this younger woman

1293
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 2: and deposits her body as sort.

1294
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 3: Of a message to his ex.

1295
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 2: Okay, you know that I could see a set of

1296
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:28,479
Speaker 2: circumstances where maybe, but at the same time, it's just

1297
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:32,280
Speaker 2: now sort of loose, circumstantial stuff and it sounds like,

1298
01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:37,280
Speaker 2: you know, the the fact that Bailey was a surgeon

1299
01:13:37,320 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 2: that specialized in the sectomes and hysterectomies, Well, this is

1300
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:44,440
Speaker 2: going to play into some of the wounds that Elizabeth's

1301
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:49,439
Speaker 2: body exhibited. However, I will tell you those wounds are

1302
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 2: for different reasons than a and do not shows somebody

1303
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 2: having a level.

1304
01:13:57,200 --> 01:13:58,760
Speaker 3: Of surgical expertise.

1305
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:01,360
Speaker 2: And how they were inflicted doesn't mean Bailey couldn't be

1306
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:05,080
Speaker 2: the one who committed this crime and inflicted those wounds.

1307
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:07,920
Speaker 2: You just can't draw the conclusion that it must be

1308
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:10,759
Speaker 2: somebody who has advanced medical training.

1309
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:13,479
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to make sure we have enough time

1310
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 1: for you to be able to go through everything you

1311
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:17,960
Speaker 1: want to go through. With the details of what we

1312
01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:21,320
Speaker 1: learned about what was probably in the autopsy, I will

1313
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:24,160
Speaker 1: shorthand very quickly what happens next. We don't know if

1314
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 1: there's any DNA evidence that had been collected. It looks

1315
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 1: like they wanted to try to get a toxicology test.

1316
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 1: They lost her organs in nineteen forty seven. The speculation

1317
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:40,799
Speaker 1: is they were thrown away after the autopsy. Post mortem

1318
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 1: reporters we talked about before is not available, and you know,

1319
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:48,599
Speaker 1: it's been I think very very frustrating. People have cried

1320
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:51,360
Speaker 1: out that this is a cover up from the LAPD

1321
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 1: because they screwed up. Of course, they deny it, and

1322
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 1: they were able to analyze, you know, the blood from

1323
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:02,160
Speaker 1: the fibers on her body. She's an AB which, as

1324
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:05,760
Speaker 1: you said, was you know, a rare blood type. And

1325
01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:09,840
Speaker 1: they think that the bristles that were found on Elizabeth's

1326
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 1: body were made of a plant material like palm tree fibers,

1327
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,559
Speaker 1: which are used in cheap brushes essentially, And you know,

1328
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:21,599
Speaker 1: they're trying to settle on time of death and the

1329
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 1: kill site, which they cannot conclude anyway. So at this

1330
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 1: point you can kind of get into your details. Paul's

1331
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:31,120
Speaker 1: got the stuff that I don't even want to look at,

1332
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:34,360
Speaker 1: which is on his laptop. Let's just go through some

1333
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:35,760
Speaker 1: of the more disturbing stuff.

1334
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 3: At the sure.

1335
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:39,040
Speaker 2: So this is, like I mentioned at the beginning, this

1336
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:41,200
Speaker 2: is where I am going to be talking in graphic

1337
01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:43,920
Speaker 2: detail about her injuries and I am going to be

1338
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 2: talking about some of thunder behaviors that will be disturbing.

1339
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:51,920
Speaker 2: This is a disturbing case to me, So just recognize

1340
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:55,840
Speaker 2: that I am not showing any of the images at all.

1341
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:57,959
Speaker 3: We actually talked.

1342
01:15:57,720 --> 01:15:59,879
Speaker 2: About it, because if I were in front of law enforcement,

1343
01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:03,240
Speaker 2: I'd be showing and saying this is why I am

1344
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:04,600
Speaker 2: forming this opinion.

1345
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 3: I have to verbally describe it.

1346
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:10,640
Speaker 2: So just kind of be patient as I go through this,

1347
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:13,519
Speaker 2: and I'm going to kind of step backwards. I'm going

1348
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 2: to start with the post mortem aspects, which we've already

1349
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,400
Speaker 2: talked about. She was cut in half, and I've already

1350
01:16:21,439 --> 01:16:25,160
Speaker 2: expressed my opinion this happened post mortem. Even the pathologist

1351
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:29,720
Speaker 2: who did the autopsy reportedly also formed that opinion. She

1352
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:32,400
Speaker 2: was also stabbed three times in the center of her

1353
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 2: chest post mortem. This is now the offender is targeting

1354
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 2: her heart right, He is ensuring that she is dead,

1355
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:47,320
Speaker 2: probably before she transsects her body. That rose tattoo that,

1356
01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:50,839
Speaker 2: of course Elizabeth was very special, it was very special

1357
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 2: to her.

1358
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:53,920
Speaker 3: Well, that was excised out.

1359
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:58,400
Speaker 2: There is almost a perfect looking square, maybe three or

1360
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:03,720
Speaker 2: four inches on each side the margins of where that

1361
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:08,800
Speaker 2: tattoo the wound margins are indicating this was done post mortem.

1362
01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 2: That tattoo was found in her vagina. It had been

1363
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:18,599
Speaker 2: shoved up inside of her. When we see tattoos being

1364
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:22,720
Speaker 2: excized nowadays, you know, typically I've got cases going back

1365
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 2: several decades in which oftentimes bodies are dumped, but the

1366
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:32,400
Speaker 2: identifying features of the body are removed, and usually what

1367
01:17:32,439 --> 01:17:35,160
Speaker 2: we'll see is the head is gone, the hands are gone.

1368
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:38,519
Speaker 2: Why because the teeth can be used to identify the person,

1369
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:44,200
Speaker 2: the facial characteristics can, fingerprints can The offender sometimes will

1370
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:48,960
Speaker 2: excize tattoos because the tattoos are being recognized as a

1371
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:52,599
Speaker 2: way that that body can be identified. So the offenders

1372
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:56,719
Speaker 2: will take these steps to delay identification. I'm not sure

1373
01:17:56,800 --> 01:18:00,639
Speaker 2: this is what Elizabeth killer is try trying to do,

1374
01:18:01,200 --> 01:18:05,960
Speaker 2: because he's leaving the tattoo within the body, and only

1375
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 2: he can really answer the question of what that means

1376
01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:12,960
Speaker 2: whether that was he knows that was important to her,

1377
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 2: and he's just having a you know, a thought on

1378
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:21,519
Speaker 2: how he can just further you know, desecrate her. But

1379
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 2: that's where he is modifying her body post mortem. The

1380
01:18:31,160 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 2: marks on her wrists, her ankles, and her neck. The

1381
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 2: as I mentioned before, these marks are not deep what

1382
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:43,559
Speaker 2: we call furrows, and a pathologist can say, hey, I've

1383
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:47,000
Speaker 2: got you know, the skin will stay indented if somebody

1384
01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 2: had been tied up.

1385
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:49,880
Speaker 3: None of these are deep.

1386
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 2: I first can say she was not hung up to

1387
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:57,920
Speaker 2: be bled out, no question about it. I will also

1388
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:02,000
Speaker 2: say that the marks around her wrists and ankles are

1389
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:05,720
Speaker 2: so light that if they were used to bind her,

1390
01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:11,400
Speaker 2: she wasn't resisting against that, nor were they tied very tight.

1391
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:15,360
Speaker 2: The important thing to me is the neck is that

1392
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:19,120
Speaker 2: that also is not deep at all. It was not

1393
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:21,759
Speaker 2: used to strangle her. The death certificate is not listing

1394
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:26,759
Speaker 2: strangulation as cause of death. The neck is all soft

1395
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:31,439
Speaker 2: tissue up front. When somebody has had you know, cordage

1396
01:19:31,479 --> 01:19:34,120
Speaker 2: wrapped around the neck and pulled tightly, even if they're

1397
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:39,360
Speaker 2: not killed, you can sometimes see some significant furrows. That's

1398
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:43,400
Speaker 2: not what's happening here. One feature that really stands out

1399
01:19:43,439 --> 01:19:47,600
Speaker 2: to me is there's a series, a linear series of

1400
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 2: circular marks on the backside of her neck. These marks,

1401
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:56,400
Speaker 2: almost all of them look like they're the same size,

1402
01:19:56,720 --> 01:20:01,599
Speaker 2: they're evenly spaced, and they're in a linear distribution. Some

1403
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:04,760
Speaker 2: have attributed these marks as cigarette burns. They do not

1404
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 2: look like cigarette burns to.

1405
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:07,120
Speaker 3: Me at all.

1406
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:10,920
Speaker 2: This looks like a feature of something that was on

1407
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:14,720
Speaker 2: the pressed up against the backside of her neck, and

1408
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:19,360
Speaker 2: I believe that it's very possible that that was the

1409
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:26,479
Speaker 2: underside of a restraint that the offender was using to

1410
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:31,880
Speaker 2: tie her down. She is in a five point restraint system,

1411
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:36,360
Speaker 2: and I use the term system loosely. This she, in

1412
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:40,320
Speaker 2: my opinion, she is spread eagle and she is bound

1413
01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:45,360
Speaker 2: at the neck. The first thing I'm going to address

1414
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:51,600
Speaker 2: is her right nipple and surrounding skin have been excized

1415
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:55,240
Speaker 2: and that was never recovered. When I take a look

1416
01:20:55,280 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 2: at the margins of the wound to her right breast,

1417
01:20:59,200 --> 01:21:01,720
Speaker 2: it's showing that this occurred while she was alive. There

1418
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:05,760
Speaker 2: is bleeding in the margins. As I further look at this,

1419
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:11,519
Speaker 2: I can see where practically all the underlying breast tissue

1420
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 2: is present. Other cases that I've worked in which breasts

1421
01:21:15,479 --> 01:21:19,720
Speaker 2: have been excised, oftentimes the entire breast is removed. In

1422
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:22,839
Speaker 2: this particular case, it is the nipple and the skin

1423
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:27,880
Speaker 2: on the sternal side, the inside chest part. It is

1424
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 2: a nice clean, straight margin. But then as you get

1425
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 2: to the outer side of this wound, it's scalloped.

1426
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:38,280
Speaker 3: Well, this happens when.

1427
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:43,040
Speaker 2: You see the skin being pulled very tightly, and then

1428
01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:46,599
Speaker 2: once the skin on one side is cut through, then

1429
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 2: the remaining skin forms like that what do you want

1430
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:50,280
Speaker 2: to call it?

1431
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:50,879
Speaker 3: Fluting?

1432
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:55,639
Speaker 2: And when it's cut through, as it's stretched, the remaining

1433
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:58,439
Speaker 2: thing is going to be in this scalloped thing. This

1434
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 2: is hugely signed magnificant. This is the offender who is

1435
01:22:01,920 --> 01:22:07,080
Speaker 2: purposely removing her right nipple while she's a live This

1436
01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:14,240
Speaker 2: is a sadistic act and we see this in certain subcultures.

1437
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 2: And I'm going to kind of go into some more

1438
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:20,479
Speaker 2: aspects of her injuries and then talk about what I

1439
01:22:20,479 --> 01:22:24,880
Speaker 2: think is going on here. In addition, her pubic hair

1440
01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:28,040
Speaker 2: had been shaved and it was found inside her rectum.

1441
01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:32,040
Speaker 2: Her rectum had been dilated almost two inches, and there

1442
01:22:32,080 --> 01:22:35,400
Speaker 2: is abrasions on the outside of the rectum This isn't

1443
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:40,200
Speaker 2: an actosodomy. This is foreign object penetration. Possibly that foreign

1444
01:22:40,280 --> 01:22:43,880
Speaker 2: object was used to stuff the pubic hair up her

1445
01:22:43,960 --> 01:22:47,960
Speaker 2: rectum and probably doing other things at the same time.

1446
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 2: After the pubic hair had been shaved, the offender took

1447
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:57,599
Speaker 2: a knife and started cutting into her pubic region. And

1448
01:22:57,640 --> 01:23:01,120
Speaker 2: he's doing it in a cross hatch method where he's

1449
01:23:01,120 --> 01:23:05,200
Speaker 2: doing parallel lines one direction and then parallel lines going

1450
01:23:05,280 --> 01:23:06,519
Speaker 2: down the opposite direction.

1451
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:08,200
Speaker 1: And is that she's still alive.

1452
01:23:08,160 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 2: And these have hemorrhaging in the margins. She is still

1453
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 2: alive when the offender is doing this, So he is

1454
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:22,640
Speaker 2: now inflicting pain on sensitive areas of Elizabeth's body. The

1455
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:26,519
Speaker 2: smile what people will call the smile, This is not

1456
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:30,240
Speaker 2: a smile. What he has done is he has cut

1457
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:34,840
Speaker 2: from both corners of her mouth going straight back. He's

1458
01:23:34,880 --> 01:23:38,480
Speaker 2: not carving in to make it look like she's smiling.

1459
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:44,040
Speaker 2: This is a functional thing that he is doing. He

1460
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:47,760
Speaker 2: initially is cutting into her upper right lip in that

1461
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:49,639
Speaker 2: same cross hatch manner.

1462
01:23:50,439 --> 01:23:53,599
Speaker 3: What is he doing. He's inflicting pain around her mouth.

1463
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:56,000
Speaker 3: Why he wants her to open her mouth?

1464
01:23:56,760 --> 01:23:59,280
Speaker 2: If you don't want somebody to get inside your mouth,

1465
01:23:59,320 --> 01:24:04,639
Speaker 2: what do you do? You clenched down, you close your lips.

1466
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:08,639
Speaker 2: What he has effectively done by doing these incisions almost

1467
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:11,680
Speaker 2: all the way back to the ear is he has

1468
01:24:11,920 --> 01:24:16,200
Speaker 2: cut through the muscles that the victim had to use

1469
01:24:16,240 --> 01:24:20,720
Speaker 2: to keep her mouth shut. Once he has inflicted these incisions,

1470
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:25,080
Speaker 2: he can now open her mouth at will. The pathologist

1471
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:30,040
Speaker 2: notes that inside her stomach was feces. This is where

1472
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:33,280
Speaker 2: it becomes I mean, this is dark. This is where

1473
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:37,600
Speaker 2: I teach law enforcement a serial predator course, and I

1474
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:43,400
Speaker 2: start out by saying, know thy enemy predators, these sexual deviance.

1475
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 2: They do things that the average person would never ever consider.

1476
01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:53,880
Speaker 2: And you have to understand the various paraphilias that these

1477
01:24:53,920 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 2: guys fantasize about. And one of those paraphilias is coprophilia

1478
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:04,760
Speaker 2: or scatophilia. This is sexual arousal by feces. Either you're

1479
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:08,680
Speaker 2: interacting with it yourself or you're watching somebody else interact

1480
01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:12,200
Speaker 2: with it. Some think that the transaction of her body

1481
01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:15,840
Speaker 2: is why there is feces in her stomach. No, her

1482
01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:19,280
Speaker 2: intestine was cut up at the duadno level. This is

1483
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:22,880
Speaker 2: the top of the intestine where stomach contents are first

1484
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:23,559
Speaker 2: entered into.

1485
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:24,599
Speaker 3: For the liver and the.

1486
01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:28,439
Speaker 2: Pancreas to start feeding their digestive fluids to help do it.

1487
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:35,240
Speaker 2: A pathologist will never ever misidentify that as fully formed feces. So,

1488
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:38,120
Speaker 2: if the pathologist was correct, and she has feces in

1489
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:41,559
Speaker 2: her stomach, she ingested it, do you think she did

1490
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:46,720
Speaker 2: that voluntarily? No, she is fighting against this offender by

1491
01:25:46,840 --> 01:25:50,840
Speaker 2: keeping her mouth locked while she is in this five

1492
01:25:51,160 --> 01:25:57,519
Speaker 2: point restraint system, and he ends up going nope, I

1493
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,120
Speaker 2: can do this to you, and he does it, and

1494
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:04,719
Speaker 2: so now he's putting, my opinion, he's putting feces into

1495
01:26:04,760 --> 01:26:07,519
Speaker 2: her oral cavity and making her swallow. If she wants

1496
01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:12,439
Speaker 2: to breathe, she's going to have to swallow. It's also possible,

1497
01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:15,800
Speaker 2: based on the subculture that I think this offender is

1498
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:18,240
Speaker 2: likely out of, that there could have been a ball

1499
01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:21,400
Speaker 2: gag placed in her mouth as part of this restraint system.

1500
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:26,759
Speaker 2: What was done to Elizabeth is done by a sexual sadist.

1501
01:26:27,560 --> 01:26:29,120
Speaker 3: This is the worst.

1502
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:32,680
Speaker 2: Type of offender that you can run into, and I

1503
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:37,639
Speaker 2: would not dismiss the possibility that this offender has a

1504
01:26:37,800 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 2: purpose built space to do this to women. How many

1505
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:46,320
Speaker 2: times across a nation have there been men who have

1506
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:50,600
Speaker 2: these torture rooms or dungeons found sometimes because they have

1507
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:54,680
Speaker 2: committed homicides. Sometimes they're fantasized about fantasizing about doing it.

1508
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:58,360
Speaker 2: Other times they're enslaving women, and that's a different type

1509
01:26:58,360 --> 01:27:04,440
Speaker 2: of offender, a sexual sadist. And so in my opinion,

1510
01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:07,880
Speaker 2: I think the most likely scenario is Elizabeth went out

1511
01:27:08,000 --> 01:27:11,240
Speaker 2: for a social night, she went to a bar, she

1512
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:14,240
Speaker 2: went to a nightclub, and she ran across a guy

1513
01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:19,439
Speaker 2: that somehow isolated her away and got her, whether it

1514
01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:22,080
Speaker 2: be in a bed and spread eagle, and now he

1515
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:28,240
Speaker 2: is getting sexually sexual gratification from inflicting pain once she

1516
01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:31,559
Speaker 2: is dead. Everything he's doing at that point is just

1517
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:35,679
Speaker 2: matter of fact, because sexual sadists get off on hearing

1518
01:27:35,720 --> 01:27:40,400
Speaker 2: the screams, hearing the writhing that their victims are doing.

1519
01:27:40,439 --> 01:27:44,040
Speaker 2: There are case examples that victims who are being attacked

1520
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:47,920
Speaker 2: by a sexual sadist, they play dead, They're like, I'm done,

1521
01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:51,120
Speaker 2: and these guys will push off and walk away because

1522
01:27:51,160 --> 01:27:53,719
Speaker 2: their sexual gratification comes from the.

1523
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:55,200
Speaker 3: Torture that they are doing.

1524
01:27:55,960 --> 01:27:59,320
Speaker 2: When you look at like the right nipple, you'll see,

1525
01:27:59,360 --> 01:28:01,960
Speaker 2: if you want, part of what I've had to do.

1526
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:04,960
Speaker 2: And this is because my mentor in the behavioral space,

1527
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:07,680
Speaker 2: Sharon Hagen, says, Paul, you have to see what these

1528
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:11,519
Speaker 2: guys are looking at to develop their fantasies. Sharon would

1529
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:13,920
Speaker 2: go into the adult bookstores and look at you know,

1530
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:16,120
Speaker 2: pull the books off the shelf and start taking a

1531
01:28:16,160 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 2: look at what these guys are consuming. And of course

1532
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:21,920
Speaker 2: now it's all online. If you pay attention to the

1533
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:27,400
Speaker 2: hardcore BDSM porn, what do they do. They put clamps

1534
01:28:27,400 --> 01:28:30,080
Speaker 2: on these women's nipples and pull them super hard.

1535
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:33,400
Speaker 3: If that were to be cut while it's.

1536
01:28:33,280 --> 01:28:36,280
Speaker 2: Being pulled like that, it is going to be exactly

1537
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:37,520
Speaker 2: what happened to Elizabeth.

1538
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:40,320
Speaker 3: The cross hatching in the pubic area.

1539
01:28:40,800 --> 01:28:42,559
Speaker 2: You know, the fact that I'm going to force you

1540
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:45,559
Speaker 2: to open your mouth, in my opinion, is what's happening there.

1541
01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:50,040
Speaker 2: This is all part of this type of fantasy. The

1542
01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:53,920
Speaker 2: cross hatching technique with the knife. I mean, I know

1543
01:28:53,960 --> 01:28:56,519
Speaker 2: there's got to be artists and drawers in here. Cross

1544
01:28:56,560 --> 01:29:00,479
Speaker 2: hatching is a drawing technique. I would not be surprised

1545
01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:04,080
Speaker 2: that this guy had fantasy drawings. And part of what

1546
01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:07,080
Speaker 2: he's doing when he's doing this crosshatch in her pubic

1547
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:10,000
Speaker 2: region is somewhat replicating some drawings.

1548
01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:10,120
Speaker 3: That he's done.

1549
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:13,960
Speaker 2: These offenders will do those types of drawings. Dennis Rader

1550
01:29:14,040 --> 01:29:19,200
Speaker 2: is a prime example of that. So Elizabeth's last moments

1551
01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:22,320
Speaker 2: of life were horrific. Now, how long could he have

1552
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:23,360
Speaker 2: kept her alive?

1553
01:29:24,080 --> 01:29:24,240
Speaker 3: You know?

1554
01:29:24,439 --> 01:29:27,520
Speaker 2: Was she alive four days? And bound in the situation?

1555
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think there's some issues with

1556
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:34,519
Speaker 2: the time estimates going on there. But when I look

1557
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:37,799
Speaker 2: at what happened to Elizabeth, I'm going, this is a predator.

1558
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:42,040
Speaker 3: And I started evaluating these suspects.

1559
01:29:41,400 --> 01:29:44,679
Speaker 2: And I'm going, you know, may I can't eliminate them,

1560
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:47,639
Speaker 2: but I'm no, you know, I think if I were

1561
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:51,120
Speaker 2: to invest my resources, I'm thinking this guy has done

1562
01:29:51,280 --> 01:29:52,559
Speaker 2: other types of crimes.

1563
01:29:53,120 --> 01:29:56,000
Speaker 3: In fact, I found a photo.

1564
01:29:56,080 --> 01:29:59,200
Speaker 2: If you think this is somewhat, you know, what happened

1565
01:29:59,200 --> 01:30:02,519
Speaker 2: to Elizabeth is like completely unique.

1566
01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:03,000
Speaker 3: No.

1567
01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:08,280
Speaker 2: I had a Michelle McNamara's researcher, who's an amazing digital

1568
01:30:08,360 --> 01:30:12,880
Speaker 2: space person. He found me a mutilated woman, mouth cut

1569
01:30:13,120 --> 01:30:18,559
Speaker 2: just like Elizabeth, right, breast almost completely excised, and the

1570
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:20,639
Speaker 2: abdominal region cut wide open.

1571
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:23,800
Speaker 3: This is what these types of guys do.

1572
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 2: So as an investigator, I'm taking a look at Hanson

1573
01:30:28,160 --> 01:30:30,240
Speaker 2: and Man and hearing the details and I'm going, you

1574
01:30:30,280 --> 01:30:33,240
Speaker 2: know what, with what happened to Elizabeth, I'm just not

1575
01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:37,679
Speaker 2: seeing somebody doing that unless they have that secret life

1576
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:40,360
Speaker 2: and just decided to go after somebody that they had

1577
01:30:40,400 --> 01:30:41,639
Speaker 2: an association with.

1578
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:43,360
Speaker 3: But one of.

1579
01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:48,080
Speaker 2: The series of cases that I ran across was a

1580
01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:54,639
Speaker 2: series of seven women teenage girl up into more mature

1581
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:58,040
Speaker 2: women if you will, that had in the years prior

1582
01:30:58,160 --> 01:31:01,200
Speaker 2: to Elizabeth's case, had been and killed by what was

1583
01:31:01,240 --> 01:31:05,400
Speaker 2: being described as this sadistic slayer. And I know Kate

1584
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:08,639
Speaker 2: has some background information on that series.

1585
01:31:08,880 --> 01:31:11,839
Speaker 1: Yep. So this is the case that Paul was talking about.

1586
01:31:12,280 --> 01:31:16,639
Speaker 1: So this is from nineteen forty seven January nineteenth, So

1587
01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:20,839
Speaker 1: journalists from the La Daily News and the Ventura County

1588
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:24,120
Speaker 1: Star speculated that Elizabeth was the victim of what they

1589
01:31:24,120 --> 01:31:28,679
Speaker 1: called a mad killer or acedist who had terrorized San

1590
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:32,679
Speaker 1: Diego for fifteen years. So they called him the West

1591
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:37,200
Speaker 1: Coast fiend, and he was believed to have sexually assaulted

1592
01:31:37,200 --> 01:31:39,719
Speaker 1: and murdered at least seven women in San Diego between

1593
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:43,800
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one and nineteen thirty six. So here are

1594
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:49,520
Speaker 1: five of them. So it's a Virginia Brooks, Louise Toyber, Wb,

1595
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:55,400
Speaker 1: Dolly Bibens who is also known as Diamond Dolly, Hazel Bradshaw,

1596
01:31:56,080 --> 01:32:02,719
Speaker 1: maud Dettwire, and Miss Wesley Adams, and one other person

1597
01:32:03,080 --> 01:32:09,760
Speaker 1: fluriala Qualic. So what they say happened was that they

1598
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:14,839
Speaker 1: were sexually assaulted, savagely slash, sometimes as many seventeen times,

1599
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:20,040
Speaker 1: and dismembered in one case strangled, and the murderer transported

1600
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:23,960
Speaker 1: their bodies to well trafficated areas where they were certain

1601
01:32:24,080 --> 01:32:24,799
Speaker 1: to be found.

1602
01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:30,559
Speaker 2: So when I hear you know, sadistically slain, you know

1603
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:33,439
Speaker 2: for me, when I use the term sadistic, that is

1604
01:32:33,479 --> 01:32:35,160
Speaker 2: a very specific term.

1605
01:32:35,240 --> 01:32:36,080
Speaker 3: This is where this.

1606
01:32:36,040 --> 01:32:42,200
Speaker 2: Person is getting sexual gratification by inflicting pain upon somebody else.

1607
01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:45,400
Speaker 2: The press uses the term and the general public will

1608
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:48,479
Speaker 2: use the term different. So this is where I'm going. Okay,

1609
01:32:49,040 --> 01:32:53,880
Speaker 2: I have somebody that is committing crimes that potentially could

1610
01:32:53,920 --> 01:32:56,479
Speaker 2: be done by a sexual satis. I want to know

1611
01:32:56,640 --> 01:33:00,400
Speaker 2: more details about this crime. But then there's certainly behavior

1612
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:02,880
Speaker 2: at least in the newspaper article I'm looking at, where

1613
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:05,479
Speaker 2: I go, oh, hold on, there is something significant here.

1614
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:08,000
Speaker 3: One of the women. I think it was Louise.

1615
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:11,479
Speaker 2: Tarber, you know, She's raped, killed, and then moved to

1616
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:14,920
Speaker 2: a different location where she is now strung up between

1617
01:33:14,960 --> 01:33:17,560
Speaker 2: two branches of two different trees on display.

1618
01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:21,280
Speaker 3: He's posed her, Elizabeth was posed.

1619
01:33:21,880 --> 01:33:25,559
Speaker 2: Whoever killed Louise Tarbor down in San Diego. He is

1620
01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:28,639
Speaker 2: wanting that shock in awe, just.

1621
01:33:28,920 --> 01:33:30,439
Speaker 3: Like Elizabeth's killer.

1622
01:33:30,880 --> 01:33:33,439
Speaker 2: So now I'm going, there is enough going on here

1623
01:33:33,479 --> 01:33:36,559
Speaker 2: where I want to know more about the San Diego cases.

1624
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:40,040
Speaker 2: I personally think, even though Elizabeth had a connection to

1625
01:33:40,080 --> 01:33:42,320
Speaker 2: shit just come from San Diego, has that connection to

1626
01:33:42,360 --> 01:33:46,160
Speaker 2: San Diego. I think that's likely coincidental. I think if

1627
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:49,240
Speaker 2: this is the same guy, he's operating down in San

1628
01:33:49,280 --> 01:33:53,720
Speaker 2: Diego and then possibly relocates up to LA and then

1629
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:57,280
Speaker 2: somehow some way crosses pass with Elizabeth, you know. And

1630
01:33:57,320 --> 01:34:01,200
Speaker 2: that's just my kind of working investigator of theory right now.

1631
01:34:01,560 --> 01:34:04,920
Speaker 2: But it's just based upon I'm interpreting what was done

1632
01:34:04,960 --> 01:34:09,640
Speaker 2: to Elizabeth, going, this isn't Robert Hansen, this isn't you know,

1633
01:34:09,720 --> 01:34:13,120
Speaker 2: these other guys, you know, Canny eliminated, but they are

1634
01:34:13,360 --> 01:34:17,040
Speaker 2: lowered down on my priority list. Then let's say the

1635
01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:19,560
Speaker 2: guy that was responsible for the San Diego.

1636
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:22,760
Speaker 1: Series Okay, I have a question that I hadn't thought

1637
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:26,160
Speaker 1: of before. Were you talking about the bindings on her

1638
01:34:26,320 --> 01:34:30,280
Speaker 1: feet and her wrists and her throat. They weren't cut

1639
01:34:30,320 --> 01:34:31,960
Speaker 1: into the skin in a way where it looked like

1640
01:34:31,960 --> 01:34:34,120
Speaker 1: she was fighting really hard. Is that right?

1641
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:34,639
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1642
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:38,679
Speaker 2: It does not look like somebody that is like really

1643
01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:45,360
Speaker 2: fighting and upbraiding, you know, But she is restrained at

1644
01:34:45,360 --> 01:34:48,120
Speaker 2: those five points. I'm absolutely confident of that.

1645
01:34:48,360 --> 01:34:51,480
Speaker 1: Well, what I'm wondering is, since they didn't get toxicology

1646
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:54,360
Speaker 1: results because they threw away her organs, is there a

1647
01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:57,880
Speaker 1: chance that it's like that the lighter marks because she

1648
01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:00,160
Speaker 1: was drugged really heavily when this was happening.

1649
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:03,040
Speaker 3: I think there's a really strong chance of that.

1650
01:35:03,160 --> 01:35:07,439
Speaker 2: Plus, she also has blows to the head significant enough

1651
01:35:07,479 --> 01:35:10,759
Speaker 2: to cause some bleeding and what's called the subarachnoid space.

1652
01:35:11,240 --> 01:35:14,240
Speaker 2: The pathologist didn't think it was sufficient to have caused

1653
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:17,400
Speaker 2: death in and of itself. But she also may not

1654
01:35:17,479 --> 01:35:21,840
Speaker 2: be fully cognizant, and that may be where she's overpowered.

1655
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:24,000
Speaker 2: The offender gets her to a location, whether it be

1656
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:28,519
Speaker 2: to his vehicle or inside his residence or a hotel room,

1657
01:35:28,720 --> 01:35:32,960
Speaker 2: and now he's overpowering her she's not completely cognizant, and

1658
01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:35,679
Speaker 2: now he's able to get her restraint and then start

1659
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:37,720
Speaker 2: doing the sadistic acts to her.

1660
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:40,800
Speaker 1: So now you know why I had so much anxiety

1661
01:35:40,880 --> 01:35:44,400
Speaker 1: about the Black Dahlia case. But we wanted to end,

1662
01:35:44,479 --> 01:35:47,679
Speaker 1: of course with Elizabeth Short because you know, I have kids,

1663
01:35:47,680 --> 01:35:52,759
Speaker 1: and pauldas too, and my kids and his two youngest

1664
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:55,360
Speaker 1: kids are basically, you know, within a few year range

1665
01:35:55,400 --> 01:35:58,240
Speaker 1: of her. And you know, we don't talk about her

1666
01:35:58,240 --> 01:36:01,559
Speaker 1: mom or her siblings you had four siblings, or her

1667
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:04,519
Speaker 1: dad for that matter. But so much has been focused

1668
01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 1: on who did this that we know that the victims

1669
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:10,840
Speaker 1: get lost sometimes no matter how much she lied, no

1670
01:36:10,840 --> 01:36:13,280
Speaker 1: matter who she had in this black book, no matter

1671
01:36:13,320 --> 01:36:16,320
Speaker 1: what she did. You know, this was an illustration of

1672
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:19,960
Speaker 1: just how terrible things can go. But you know, at

1673
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:22,000
Speaker 1: the same time, the fact that we're still talking about

1674
01:36:22,040 --> 01:36:26,840
Speaker 1: this case, I am hoping LAPD will reach out to

1675
01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:32,200
Speaker 1: Paul or somebody who can help, right right, and you

1676
01:36:32,240 --> 01:36:34,600
Speaker 1: know he has a good relationship with them. But it's

1677
01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:38,280
Speaker 1: a situation where there's a lot of resources out there,

1678
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:41,800
Speaker 1: and you know, certainly we're hoping to get a resolution

1679
01:36:41,920 --> 01:36:45,240
Speaker 1: to this. But regardless, I mean what a life she

1680
01:36:45,280 --> 01:36:48,920
Speaker 1: could have had. She was twenty two and things could

1681
01:36:48,920 --> 01:36:50,920
Speaker 1: have changed for her pretty dramatically. So this is one

1682
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:52,880
Speaker 1: of the sad stories. I'm sorry to leave it with

1683
01:36:52,920 --> 01:36:55,639
Speaker 1: you guys like this, but this is the reason why

1684
01:36:55,640 --> 01:36:58,639
Speaker 1: we do the show, so that we remember victims. Think.

1685
01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:02,160
Speaker 1: This is why we do it, yep, you know.

1686
01:37:02,200 --> 01:37:05,160
Speaker 2: And I just want to thank everybody for you know,

1687
01:37:05,200 --> 01:37:08,400
Speaker 2: sitting through this and hopefully you have a better understanding

1688
01:37:08,479 --> 01:37:09,120
Speaker 2: of this case.

1689
01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:12,040
Speaker 1: And thanks so much to iHeart and Divergin and you

1690
01:37:12,120 --> 01:37:15,639
Speaker 1: got to get started on that true crime only cruise

1691
01:37:15,880 --> 01:37:19,400
Speaker 1: just like the Murderous Lady or something. I don't know.

1692
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:21,840
Speaker 1: Thank y'all for joining us for very Bones. Thank you

1693
01:37:21,880 --> 01:37:33,960
Speaker 1: so much. This has been an exactly right production for

1694
01:37:34,040 --> 01:37:37,080
Speaker 1: our sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia dot

1695
01:37:37,120 --> 01:37:41,840
Speaker 1: com slash Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1696
01:37:42,160 --> 01:37:45,120
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1697
01:37:45,360 --> 01:37:47,640
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1698
01:37:47,960 --> 01:37:50,200
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1699
01:37:50,479 --> 01:37:52,519
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1700
01:37:52,760 --> 01:37:56,920
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1701
01:37:57,200 --> 01:38:00,360
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and face Book

1702
01:38:00,400 --> 01:38:01,800
Speaker 1: at Varied Bones pod.

1703
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:04,839
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1704
01:38:04,840 --> 01:38:06,840
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1705
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:08,879
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1706
01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:13,240
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, my life solving America's

1707
01:38:13,240 --> 01:38:15,320
Speaker 1: cold cases, is also available now.

1708
01:38:15,640 --> 01:38:19,320
Speaker 2: Listen to Varied Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1709
01:38:19,479 --> 01:38:21,360
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts