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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for Session three sixty three of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm doctor Sarah Audiyenka Scold and I'm on the Therapy

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Speaker 3: for Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking the

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Speaker 3: depiction of black women on dating shows.

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Speaker 1: It's easy to dismiss dating reality TV shows like Love

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Speaker 1: Island and The Bachelor as trashy, guilty pleasure TV. But

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Speaker 1: as we watch, black women, contestants continuously get discarded by

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Speaker 1: their male counterparts. Chosen last if chosen at all and

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Speaker 1: edited in a way that promotes stereotypes. It can make

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Speaker 1: the IRL pursuit of romance feel a little more bleak.

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Speaker 1: Digging into this idea a little bit more with me

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Speaker 1: today is doctor Sarah adayenk scold. Doctor Sarah earned her

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Speaker 1: sociology doctoral degree from the University of Pennsylvania. She studied

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Speaker 1: how the processes of finding romantic partners with racial and

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Speaker 1: gender inequality in the United States. She's also a licensed

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Speaker 1: clinical social worker in three states. During our conversation, we

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Speaker 1: chatted about viral dating show contestants like ad and Tiffany

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Speaker 1: from Love Is Blind, Page from Married at First Sight,

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Speaker 1: and how their stories in the world's reactions to them

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Speaker 1: reflect the real life woes that black women face while

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Speaker 1: trying to date in a society where we face both

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Speaker 1: gender and racial discrimination. If something resonates with you while

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Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social

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Speaker 1: media using the hashtag TBG in session or join us

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Speaker 1: over in the sister circle To talk more about the episode.

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Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me today. Doctor Adrienke scold.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me, doctor Joy, I

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Speaker 3: really appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So we are a huge faith of all things pop

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Speaker 1: culture and reality TV. A lot of our production teams

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Speaker 1: since a lot of time watching these things, especially as

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Speaker 1: it relates to Black women, and so I am curious

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Speaker 1: to hear a little bit more about your work. So

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Speaker 1: you are a sociologist who studies a lot around black

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Speaker 1: women and reality TV and dating shows. So can you

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Speaker 1: tell me, like, what trends have you noticed regarding black

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Speaker 1: women's for pseudo romantic relationships, particularly how they are shown

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Speaker 1: in the media.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, thankfully I don't have to rely on reality

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Speaker 3: TV shows. I've been really privileged to be able to

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Speaker 3: talk to black women about their experiences. I wrote my

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Speaker 3: dissertation on dating and the Digital Age, so I did

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Speaker 3: interview Asian, Black, Latina, and white women. But I've been

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Speaker 3: really more interested in black women's stories because they are

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Speaker 3: so unique. So what I find is not that different

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Speaker 3: from what we see. A lot of black women have

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Speaker 3: been writing about this idea of Black women sort of

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Speaker 3: feeling excluded in terms of romance, feeling as though they

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Speaker 3: are not desired by black and non black men, feeling excluded,

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Speaker 3: and we see that in person but also very much online.

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Speaker 3: And Black women also have a unique experience in that

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Speaker 3: we are the only group where we can't count on

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Speaker 3: men of our own racial background to choose us as partners.

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Speaker 3: So that's what I've been working on looking at, but

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Speaker 3: also thinking about black women is really resilient, which is

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Speaker 3: a double edged sword, because we don't want Black women

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Speaker 3: to think that they always need to be resilient. I

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Speaker 3: think a lot about how we're living in a society

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Speaker 3: that is structured by gender and racial hierarchies, and so

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Speaker 3: in order to survive it, we do have to call

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Speaker 3: on our resilience. So with's something that's inevitable, I feel

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Speaker 3: forced on us. But Black women are also making their

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Speaker 3: way in the world even as they are dealing with

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Speaker 3: these obstacles in terms of romance, and I think one

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Speaker 3: thing that's been nice about this work is feeling as

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Speaker 3: though I'm bearing witness to black women's experiences. So it's

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Speaker 3: sort of one thing to read about it on CNN

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Speaker 3: or to read about it in online blogs or whatever,

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Speaker 3: But to have a sociologist or an academic sort of

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Speaker 3: validate your experience, I think is also an important aspect

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Speaker 3: and something that I feel really privileged to do. So

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Speaker 3: the trends that I notice, I think are kind of

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Speaker 3: what a lot of people have seen, which is not

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Speaker 3: surprising when you have people that are sort of at

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Speaker 3: the bottom of the gender and the racial hierarchy, which

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Speaker 3: is that Black women oftentimes feel as though they are

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Speaker 3: excluded as romantic partners by black men. They are also

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Speaker 3: excluded by non black men. These men often rely on

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Speaker 3: what Patricia Hill Collins calls controlling images. So this idea

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Speaker 3: of black women's womanhood and sexuality is like hyper masculine

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Speaker 3: or sexually deviant or hyper sexual, and so they experience that,

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Speaker 3: but they also, on the flip side, experience phedgecization. So

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Speaker 3: the idea is that they're going to be offering some

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Speaker 3: sort of out of this world sexual experience to people

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Speaker 3: because they're Black women. The tropes that whites use to

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Speaker 3: demonize and demean Black women and really ultimately to justify

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Speaker 3: sexual assault and sexual violence against Black women, non black

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Speaker 3: men will often use these sort of tropes if they

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Speaker 3: include Black women. So it's kind of like we can

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Speaker 3: come together. I can choose you as a romantic partner.

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Speaker 3: But also because I see you in this particular lens.

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Speaker 3: And of course there's normal experiences, right as we saw

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Speaker 3: all Love is Blind with Tiffany and Brett, right, so they,

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Speaker 3: as far as we know, are still doing really well,

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Speaker 3: and like that was just really uplifting to see, So

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Speaker 3: that happens as well. But what I'm talking about is

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Speaker 3: these other experiences that are all so well known to

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Speaker 3: black women where either they're fetishized or they're excluded. So

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Speaker 3: I could go into a lot more detail, but that's

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Speaker 3: what I find in terms of Black women dealing with

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Speaker 3: these issues. But black women also know how to take

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Speaker 3: care of themselves. They exit out of dating apps or

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Speaker 3: out of the search for romantic partners if it's just

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Speaker 3: feeling like too much. Right, So, as a sociologist, I'd say,

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Speaker 3: if the burdens of living in a shatify society, if

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Speaker 3: they're feeling like I'm experiencing this too much, if they're

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Speaker 3: feeling like their mental health is really burdened, they find

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Speaker 3: ways to take care of themselves, either taking temporary or

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Speaker 3: permanent breaks, really tapping into their social networks, going to therapy.

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Speaker 3: These are all ways in which black women care for themselves.

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Speaker 3: Deciding that they're not going to date non black men

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Speaker 3: because they don't want to deal with the fetricalization or

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Speaker 3: the exclusion. So there are also strategies that they use

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Speaker 3: to kind of regain that agency that's been eroded as

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Speaker 3: they are searching for romantic partners.

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Speaker 1: So, Doctor Sarah, you have said so much already. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's just so much that's been off for them. But

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Speaker 1: one of the early comments you made was around how

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Speaker 1: even in your research you found that black women can't

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Speaker 1: count on black men to kind of be interested in

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Speaker 1: them romantically in the ways that other communities might.

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Speaker 2: Can you say.

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Speaker 1: More about that? And I'm guessing it's connected to some

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Speaker 1: of these stereotypes that you've already talked about, but can

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Speaker 1: you say more about why that's happening.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, just based on some really interesting quotes that

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Speaker 3: I got from my respondents, one woman said that one

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Speaker 3: he was a Dominican black guy and he said to her, well,

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Speaker 3: I don't date black women because they are intimidating or

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Speaker 3: they emaculate you, and with white women it's just easy.

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Speaker 2: He was like, it might be boring.

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Speaker 3: It might be easy, Like basically you might not like it,

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Speaker 3: but at least it's not going to be difficult whatever

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Speaker 3: that means, right, or women who have experiences where men

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Speaker 3: will say things like, oh, well, I've never basically the

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Speaker 3: F word bang the black woman before, so you'll have

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Speaker 3: that in terms of pratialization. So yeah, So basically what

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Speaker 3: we're seeing when we see that happening is that black

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Speaker 3: men have adopted these controlling images, right, they have internalized

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Speaker 3: them as well in some ways that's the point of them, right.

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Speaker 3: So the ideas that we have, the society that's deeped

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Speaker 3: in white supremacy, is founded on white supremacy and the

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Speaker 3: idea of controlling images, the idea of making black women

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Speaker 3: as other They are basically doing what we're all primed

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Speaker 3: to do. And so basically it's this idea that black

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Speaker 3: women are at the bottom of this racial, engendered hierarchy,

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Speaker 3: and black men are saying, yeah, we too have adopted

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Speaker 3: these beliefs, these ideologies, these ways in which others think

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Speaker 3: about black women, and we're going to also utilize those

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Speaker 3: justification as a way to reject you as romantic partners.

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Speaker 3: So you know, when people say like, oh, black women

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Speaker 3: are too loud, or black women need to tone themselves down,

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Speaker 3: these are the same kinds of justifications that you will

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Speaker 3: often find. Or my respondents said they were finding if

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Speaker 3: black men talk to them, told them why they were

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Speaker 3: turning them down. It's sad, But the idea here is

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Speaker 3: that we are subject to the way in which our

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Speaker 3: society is set up racially.

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Speaker 2: We are subjects. It bears down on all of us.

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Speaker 3: So in some ways I think about it as like

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Speaker 3: we could blame black men, or we could blame white

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Speaker 3: supremacy and say a lot of people are functioning in

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Speaker 3: white supremacy.

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Speaker 2: They might not realize it.

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Speaker 3: They might think they have an original opinion, but it's like, no,

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Speaker 3: it's not an oliginal opinion. We see this in media

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Speaker 3: all the time. You're just regurgitating these ideas that are

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Speaker 3: literally steeped in our society, and you're using them as

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Speaker 3: a way to reject Black women. All kinds of women

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Speaker 3: are angry, all kinds of women are intimidating, all kinds

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Speaker 3: of women are successful. Black women don't have a monopoly

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Speaker 3: on any of those things. But when you are in

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Speaker 3: a society that says, not only do they have a

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Speaker 3: monopoly on these things, but these things make them deviant, different,

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Speaker 3: less valuable than other women, Right, it's reinforced time and

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Speaker 3: time again, in some ways it's hard to escape.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, so you've already touched on the idea

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Speaker 1: that like media of course, is one avenue where some

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Speaker 1: of these stereotypes are continue to be perpetuated. Can you

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about like the intersection of that

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Speaker 1: with reality shows and dating shows? Right, So, we know

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Speaker 1: that there is often a lot of conversation around like

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Speaker 1: how black women are portrayed on dating shows. Can you

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about maybe things that you found

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Speaker 1: in your work or just your observations of how black

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Speaker 1: women are portrayed on dating shows.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So, even though I don't study reality shows as my

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Speaker 3: academic subject, I watch them and I think that they're

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Speaker 3: important because so many people watch them. Right, So, like

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Speaker 3: Love Is Blind just had its sixth season, so that's

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Speaker 3: quite some time. So it's important to think about how

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Speaker 3: black women get portrayed in these shows because I would

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Speaker 3: say the way in which the editing happens is they're

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Speaker 3: often playing to stereotypes. Right, So I think with Oh

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Speaker 3: my goodness, Clay and Ad, for instance, the ways in

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Speaker 3: which Ad gets portrayed is not necessarily in the best light.

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Speaker 3: In that same season, there was another black woman who

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Speaker 3: I believe was successful in getting a partner, but we

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Speaker 3: never saw her. They didn't tell that story. So we

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Speaker 3: see her once, and then when we see her, she's

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Speaker 3: portrayed in like this weird way. We see ad multiple times,

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Speaker 3: and the way that she's edited is basically to portray

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Speaker 3: these stereotypes of black women. But also even if they

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Speaker 3: didn't have the edits, I think that we also saw

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Speaker 3: how cast members, non black cast members talked about her

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Speaker 3: right the ways in which they spoke about her body,

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Speaker 3: which really, I would say, like encapsulated this idea again

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Speaker 3: of black women as like other people's properties, their bodies

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Speaker 3: don't belong to them.

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Speaker 2: The ways in which.

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Speaker 3: People are speaking about their bodies is your body belongs

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Speaker 3: to us. We get to say what your womanhood is like,

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Speaker 3: we get to say what your sexuality is like. So

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Speaker 3: even if they hadn't edited that way, maybe they even

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Speaker 3: saved us from worse things. Who knows, you know, you

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Speaker 3: never know, But the thing is they still showed that.

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Speaker 3: And I think about the contrast to Tiffany and Bread,

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Speaker 3: where we didn't see.

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Speaker 2: Any of that as much.

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Speaker 3: I just felt like Tiffany got to be like her

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Speaker 3: full self. We didn't see castmates, at least, they didn't

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Speaker 3: show us Casswades talking about her body or anything like that,

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Speaker 3: and so sometimes I wonder why is it? And these

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Speaker 3: seasons were essentially back to back, I believe, so it

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Speaker 3: made me wonder, well, why was the portrayal of Tiffany

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Speaker 3: so wholesome? And then what was the reaction to that

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Speaker 3: that made us revert back to our old ways of

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Speaker 3: portraying black women in these very stereotypical ways. And then

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Speaker 3: maybe Clay did get portrayed a particular kind of way,

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Speaker 3: but I also don't know if they hadn't edited, if

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Speaker 3: we wouldn't have seen that as well.

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Speaker 2: It's also not like black men.

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Speaker 3: Were unscathed right in the ways in which they were portrayed.

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Speaker 3: But I do think that in eighties case, like even

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Speaker 3: if we took away the choices that she might have made,

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Speaker 3: just seeing the ways in which she was treated and

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Speaker 3: the ways in which people talked about her very much

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Speaker 3: characterizes this idea of again black women being seen as

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Speaker 3: an other and then people really thinking that, yeah, I

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Speaker 3: can talk about her as another, right, We're not seeing

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Speaker 3: them talking about white women or latinas or anybody else

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Speaker 3: in that fashion. So I think that that's very pervasive

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Speaker 3: and it seeps into our television, and I honestly think

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Speaker 3: that people think that they can talk about black women

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Speaker 3: like this because they might watch other reality TV shows,

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Speaker 3: the Housewives of Atlanta or Housewives of I think Potomac,

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Speaker 3: Potomac exactly. So I feel like it's a really hard

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Speaker 3: space to be in because, in the one hand, black

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Speaker 3: women should get to be in spaces where they are themselves.

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Speaker 3: I was actually listening to your podcast with Differny Cross

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Speaker 3: just before we got on, and she's talking about these

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Speaker 3: spaces where like black women can breathe. They should, Black

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Speaker 3: women should be able to do their reality TV shows

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Speaker 3: the way that they want. There's Housewives of New York,

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Speaker 3: Housewives of New Jersey, Housewives of Orange County. I don't

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Speaker 3: get the sense that those housewives are confined to a

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Speaker 3: particular way of looking at white women. There's this complete

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Speaker 3: humanity that they get, whereas I get the sense it's

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Speaker 3: like we have to portray black women in this particular

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Speaker 3: way unless people aren't going to believe that it's actually real.

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Speaker 2: We really buy on.

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Speaker 3: Stereotypes of black women all the time to get people

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Speaker 3: to view things. Why, right, why do we think that

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Speaker 3: if we didn't just let black women be one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent who they are, that people will be about that.

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Speaker 3: When I did the interview for Vox about Love is Blind,

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Speaker 3: the interviewer had talked about how some people were like, oh,

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Speaker 3: Brett and Tiffany were so boring? Why why would you

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Speaker 3: say that? We don't say that for any other of

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Speaker 3: the white couples. We don't say we everyone wants to know, Oh,

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Speaker 3: what's the latest thing?

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Speaker 2: What are they doing? But blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: And then we see something similar with I think it

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Speaker 3: was Cameron and Lauren. They're the first, the first, the first,

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Speaker 3: and so again it's like everyone is curious.

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Speaker 2: I feel like they're like these museum pieces.

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Speaker 3: Either it's boring or it's interesting because it's just so

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Speaker 3: different from what we normally see, and it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: why can't Brett and Tiffany just be humans? No one

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Speaker 3: is criticizing the white couples as boring. No one is

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Speaker 3: complaining right that, like they're living their best lives. So

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Speaker 3: it's hard because I want black women to be able

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Speaker 3: to be on reality shows but not feel as though

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Speaker 3: they're constantly pigeonholed into these controlling images and for the

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Speaker 3: media to feel like, well, we have to portray black

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Speaker 3: people as somewhat dysfunctional or it's going to be deemed

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Speaker 3: as pouring, or people aren't going.

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Speaker 2: To want to tune into our shows.

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Speaker 3: Again, this is evidence that we're living in a society

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Speaker 3: structured by white supremacy.

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Speaker 2: Why is it that we always.

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Speaker 3: Run to images that demean and dehumanize black women as

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Speaker 3: the place where we're going to make money, as the

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Speaker 3: place where we're going to get our viewership. Why is

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Speaker 3: that always the default? Those are the questions that I have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and doctor Srry, it feels hard to think about,

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Speaker 1: like the colorism angle there with Ad and especially as

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Speaker 1: opposed to Tiffany right in the back to back seasons.

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Speaker 1: Like Tiffany, it does feel like it's a very different

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Speaker 1: edit verse this Ad. Maybe it's not even so much editing,

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Speaker 1: but like the story that we saw and what they

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Speaker 1: showed us. Of course, like Ad is a darker skin sister,

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Speaker 1: and so we know all the stereotypes about darker skinned women,

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Speaker 1: and you know what that means in adding to this,

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Speaker 1: like hyper sexual like fetishization like you mentioned of her

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Speaker 1: versus somebody like a Tiffany, right, right, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: I think that's an added layer as well. Right, So

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Speaker 3: it's interesting to think about both of them as black women.

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Speaker 3: People are telling us, oh, Tiffany is boring, and people

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Speaker 3: are telling us AD is making bad decisions or like,

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Speaker 3: we're seeing these stereotypes. But like they're both caught in

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Speaker 3: this bind, right, They're both subject to these ways, and

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Speaker 3: there's both subject to no grace, right, just complete judgment.

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Speaker 3: But the severity does in fact vary because of colorism, right,

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Speaker 3: The ways in which people might experience these controlling images

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Speaker 3: or how people view them because of it or because

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Speaker 3: of white supremacy is very much mediated by skin color

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Speaker 3: and pigmentation and phenotype. And yeah, as expected, the darker

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Speaker 3: woman is getting it a lot worse than a woman

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Speaker 3: who might be more light skinned.

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Speaker 1: So dot to Sarah, I'm curious to hear your thoughts

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Speaker 1: on this. So I have often struggled with whether it

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Speaker 1: feels psychologically safe for black women to even participate in

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Speaker 1: dating shows and reality shows like this because I think

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Speaker 1: about AD. But I think the most glaring example for

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Speaker 1: me was Page from Married at First Sight. Paige was

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Speaker 1: also matched with a black man, and it just felt

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Speaker 1: like she was constantly tortured in my mind, like he

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Speaker 1: didn't want to be with her, so he said yes

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Speaker 1: to the marriage, but then would like be gone for

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Speaker 1: days at a time or constantly putting her down, and

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Speaker 1: it just felt like this is not good. This feels

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Speaker 1: very psychologically torturous, even to me as the viewer, so

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine what it it is like for

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Speaker 1: her living the experience, and so it just makes me question, like, yes,

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Speaker 1: I also want black women to be able to have

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Speaker 1: the fullness of opportunity to kind of do the things

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Speaker 1: that anybody else does. But I do think these situations

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Speaker 1: sometimes just it feels like us getting so much more

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Speaker 1: of the shorter side of the stick and just not

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Speaker 1: even a fun thing, right, Like, even if you don't

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Speaker 1: go on these shows your life partner, like it could

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Speaker 1: just still be a fun experience or career opportunities often

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Speaker 1: come from these kinds of things, but it often feels

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Speaker 1: like that kind of thing does not outweigh the negative

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Speaker 1: side effects so to speak, of participating in some of

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Speaker 1: these kinds of shows.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is definitely a complicated thing because I think

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Speaker 3: about how so much of Black women's agency is constrained

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Speaker 3: by living in a society that's underguarded under the foundation

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Speaker 3: is white supremacy, right, and so a lot of the

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Speaker 3: decisions that we make or can make our so our

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Speaker 3: agency is constrained. We don't have as many options. And

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Speaker 3: when we do make decisions right, the ways in which

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Speaker 3: we're judged, they're so vast right, we can't catch a break, right.

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Speaker 3: So there are ways in which women are judged in general,

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Speaker 3: and then you get this intersectionality of our race and

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Speaker 3: depending on if you're educated, if you have a college

377
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Speaker 3: degree versus not, they're just these ways in which you

378
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Speaker 3: can't do anything without feeling the brunt of it. And

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Speaker 3: so I am caught too when I think about this,

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Speaker 3: because again, I want black women to be able to

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Speaker 3: do whatever they want, right. If they want to go

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Speaker 3: on a show where they're just having fun, even if

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Speaker 3: they don't want to find their mate, or they do

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Speaker 3: want to find a romantic partner, I want to them

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Speaker 3: to be able to go on a show and do

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Speaker 3: that right. Lots of people do that in this world,

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Speaker 3: and they make money, and there are so much more

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Speaker 3: that can come from going on these shows. I want

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Speaker 3: that for them, But at the same time, I do

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Speaker 3: feel like it's hard because how does it bear on

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Speaker 3: their mental health and their mental wellbeing? For the individuals

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Speaker 3: that go on the show. That's the first sort of layer.

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Speaker 3: And then the second layer is for black women who

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Speaker 3: are watching these shows, how does that impact them? How

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Speaker 3: do we feel when we see ourselves in us society?

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Speaker 3: It is ourselves?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Like, this is why representation where we're talking about, this

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Speaker 3: is why it matters. So as much as we want

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Speaker 3: to distance ourselves and see ourselves as individuals from the

401
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Speaker 3: folks that are on TV, at the same time, we

402
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Speaker 3: do still see ourselves. So like, what does it mean

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Speaker 3: to be a black woman watching other black women undergo this.

404
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Speaker 2: Kind of treatment? Right?

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Speaker 3: What does it mean for our mental health in that way?

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Speaker 3: And then to think about the collective right as black

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Speaker 3: women in general, as we are moving through the world,

408
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Speaker 3: moving through to a society that continues to reinforce these

409
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Speaker 3: controlling images, these gendered racial stereotypes, what does that mean

410
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 3: for us? It's naive to think that we just get

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Speaker 3: to move through the world as individuals and ignoring that

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Speaker 3: people watch these shows and really expect a particular kind

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Speaker 3: of behavior out of us and treat us because they

414
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Speaker 3: might not actually have Black women in their lives, or

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Speaker 3: they might have their quote unquote black friends, but they're

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Speaker 3: not actually talking to them or having these conversations.

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Speaker 2: So there are these three layers.

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Speaker 3: And yet I come back to why do black women

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Speaker 3: have to worry about that white women aren't going on shows?

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Speaker 3: Wondering how it's going to collectively impact white women, right

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Speaker 3: like latinas aren't going on shows, Asian women they're not

422
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Speaker 3: going on shows, and thinking like, oh, how is this

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Speaker 3: going to impact other women that share my ethno racial background.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like black women are also carrying this

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Speaker 3: burden of like how will it impact young black women?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Like, we just have all this extra emotional labor, all

428
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Speaker 3: this extra emotional burdens, all this work that we have

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Speaker 3: to do just to exist and to thrive in the US.

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Speaker 3: So for me, just like you, I struggle between let

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Speaker 3: them have their agency, they can make whatever decisions they want,

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Speaker 3: and also but how does this reflect on us?

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Speaker 2: And honestly, I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 3: Keep doing what you're doing because everybody else is getting

435
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 3: to live their best life. Just make sure that you

436
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 3: have the resources that you need to take care of

437
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 3: yourself after the fact. So hopefully page Ad Tiffany have

438
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 3: the supports that they need in order to shore themselves

439
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 3: up before they go on the shows, while they're on

440
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 3: the shows, and after they go from the show. I

441
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 3: want to be on the side of let black women live.

442
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 3: We are as fully human as everybody else, and they

443
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 3: shouldn't have to worry about alleviating a system that they

444
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,880
Speaker 3: had nothing to do with creating. It's simply not their

445
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 3: faults and it's not their responsibility. If there's a person

446
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 3: on Love is Blind that seeds what's happening a white person,

447
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 3: you call it out. You see how people are talking

448
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 3: about Ad, you call that out. If you see how

449
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 3: people are talking about Brett and Tiffany, you call that out.

450
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 2: It's not black women's.

451
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 3: Role to alleviate a system that didn't set up. So

452
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 3: that's kind of where I end up landing on it,

453
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 3: because I'm not gonna be for anything that continues to

454
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 3: constrain the decisions that black women make.

455
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 2: They get to make bad decisions. That's it.

456
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 3: That's where I stand, and as black people, we need

457
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 3: to be okay with giving black women the grace that

458
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 3: we give unfettered to any other group of people. It

459
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that we don't get to criticize people's decisions.

460
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that we shouldn't call out bad behavior.

461
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that we let people walk free if

462
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 3: there are ways in which they're doing things that are

463
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 3: harmful to themselves. But let us be as gracious as

464
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 3: we unconsciously are for anybody else that's not a black person,

465
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 3: and that is especially not a black woman. In the end,

466
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 3: that's where I'm going to fall because I'm not going

467
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 3: to join a society that says we get to control

468
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 3: you and your body.

469
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 2: I just refuse.

470
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: Yes, the consequences may not be good for me, maybe

471
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,719
Speaker 3: they're not going to be good for my daughter, but

472
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 3: I'm going to raise my daughter to be like, this

473
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: is the world that you live in, But I also

474
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 3: want you to be able to move in ways that

475
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 3: give you as much agency as possible. It's complicated, it's

476
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 3: a hard way to live. But I'm not gonna stand

477
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 3: in the way of black women doing the things that

478
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 3: they need to do to live what they feel is

479
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 3: a fulfilling and meaningful life.

480
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 2: I'm just not gonna do it.

481
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break Why do friendship

482
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: breakups sometimes hurt more than romantic ones? How do I

483
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: make friends in a new city. Is it true that

484
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: women can't actually be good friends to one another. I'm

485
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: exploring all of these questions and so much more in

486
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: my book, Sisterhood Heels, now available in paperback at your

487
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: local independent bookstore or at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab

488
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: a copy for you and your girls, and let's talk

489
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: about it. So, doctor Sarah, you have I think this

490
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: interesting staying background, and that you are a sociologist but

491
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: also a licensed clinical social worker. We know that on

492
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: some of the shows like a Love Island and even

493
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: some of the other ones that we've already talked about,

494
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: we will often see the black women picked the last,

495
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: if they are picked at all. And so I'm curious

496
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: to hear you know some more maybe from the clinical side,

497
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: in terms of like the impact that this kind of

498
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 1: thing can have on your self esteem, both as a

499
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: contestant but also as a viewer.

500
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

501
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 3: So, even though what I've said in terms of let

502
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 3: black women live, the consequences are very real, right, So

503
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 3: for black women, I feel like only maybe in the

504
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 3: last five to ten years, we've really been taking seriously

505
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 3: black women's mental health, thinking about the rates of depression

506
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 3: in our communities, thinking about the burdens of being the

507
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 3: strong black woman, thinking about the ways in which living

508
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: in a society undergirded by white supremacy impacts how we

509
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: think about ourselves, and the true negativity that we experience

510
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 3: as a result of that. So I think that it

511
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 3: is and it would be really hard to watch these

512
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 3: shows and not to walk away thinking that there is

513
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 3: something actually wrong with Black women the way in which

514
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 3: we are portrayed and in the ways in which we

515
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 3: are chosen last, and not the thing as a black woman,

516
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 3: that there is something wrong with you, right, So I

517
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 3: think that there is real damage that is done there,

518
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 3: and it's a unique kind of damage because there are

519
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 3: shows that we can watch. You can watch Housewives of

520
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 3: Orange County and see the ways in which women in

521
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 3: general are portrayed. There's no house Husbands of Orange County

522
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 3: or house Husbands of Potomac or anything like that. So

523
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 3: we're definitely as a society benefiting from the ways in

524
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 3: which we portray women in a particular kind of way.

525
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 3: And then when we add to that black women, that's

526
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,959
Speaker 3: definitely compounded. So I think, yes, there are real emotional

527
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: sacrifices that women are making when they join the show

528
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 3: and also when we watch the show. So I think,

529
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: as black women again, thinking about our own agency. I

530
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: want black women to be making informed decisions as much

531
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 3: as they can. So not just making any decision right,

532
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 3: not just saying well, I have my agency, I'm so

533
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 3: I'm going to do whatever I want to do.

534
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: Well, how can.

535
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 3: You make a decision that mitigates the harm to you?

536
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 3: How do you make decisions that mitigate the mental burden

537
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 3: to you? How do we make decisions that increase our

538
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 3: self esteem and not decrease it. If I had a

539
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,959
Speaker 3: client come to me and say, hey, I'm thinking about

540
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 3: going on Love is Blind? What do you think about it?

541
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 3: So that's a place where I would say, tell me

542
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 3: a little bit more about what you hope to gain

543
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: from going on Love is Blind. Tell me what it

544
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 3: is that you want, what are the goals that you

545
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 3: want to accomplish, And then let's think about what are

546
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 3: then what do you think could be some of the

547
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: things that could be some disadvantages from you going on

548
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: the show?

549
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 2: Right?

550
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 3: What are things are make you worried about? Going on

551
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 3: the show as a sociologist. I'm bringing stats, I'm bringing evidence,

552
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 3: I'm bringing data into this conversation. Okay, so this is

553
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 3: what we know happens on the show, This is what

554
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 3: we know goes on with black women when they're on there.

555
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 3: This might be what we know about the women afterwards.

556
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 2: Right. So I'm also there helping to.

557
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 3: Guide that decision process, and so I want them to

558
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 3: be able to make that decision based on the work

559
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 3: that we're doing in the sessions together, but also based

560
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 3: on sort of this sociological data and evidence that I'm presenting.

561
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 3: Same thing is if a contestant came and said, oh

562
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 3: my gosh, doctor Sarah, that show was terrible for me. Okay,

563
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 3: why was it terrible? What were you expecting to happen?

564
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 3: And what happened? Are there things in your background that

565
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: you feel have made it feel worse? How does it

566
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 3: feel to be a black woman? How can we work

567
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 3: together to think about like how that made the experience

568
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 3: even worse for you. I'm not going to judge her

569
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 3: and say, well, you definitely just shouldn't have gone on

570
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 3: the show.

571
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: That was a bad idea.

572
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: I'm going to sit with her in that place and say, Okay,

573
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 3: these are the stressors, this is the distress. How do

574
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 3: we bring that down? And ultimately, in both scenarios, how

575
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 3: do we create a situation where you're continuing to feel

576
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,959
Speaker 3: fully human and what does that full humanity look like

577
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 3: for you?

578
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 2: Right?

579
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 3: So, that's the work that I'm going to be doing

580
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 3: in either of those sessions, regardless of if the woman

581
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 3: the first scenario decides she's going to go on, she's

582
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: going to go on fully armed and have some she

583
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 3: might have some better idea right of what's going to

584
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: happen on the show, and hopefully we've come up with

585
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 3: some resources to deal with those issues in the same

586
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 3: vein the woman in the second scenario, Hopefully she's going

587
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 3: to walk away from those sessions being like, we've reduced

588
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 3: the harm to me, I have the resources that make

589
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 3: me feel fully human. And yeah, she might regret, but

590
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 3: hopefully what she's also going to work away with is

591
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 3: she's enough and that she got to make that decision,

592
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 3: and now what is she going to do after the

593
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 3: fact to make sure that she continues to feel fully

594
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 3: human and continues to make decisions that promote her mental

595
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 3: and physical wellbeing.

596
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: Doctor Sarah what kinds of shows are you watching recently?

597
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: Is there anything that you've watched lately in the dating

598
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: reality world that has peaked your research brain.

599
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: That's a good question.

600
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 3: So I've actually just been watching a lot of Selling

601
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 3: Sunset to be quite honest, you know, But something that

602
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 3: I'm always curious about is global blackness, right, So, like,

603
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 3: how do black women on Love Is Blind Brazil or

604
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: The Ultimatum South Africa. I'm like ready to watch Ultimateum

605
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 3: South Africa because i want to see what is going

606
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 3: on there. So I think that's where I'm headed in

607
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 3: terms of reality TV shows. So it's funny that you

608
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 3: ask that, because in terms of guarding my own mental health,

609
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 3: I actually am very careful about when I watch something.

610
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,919
Speaker 3: So if I'm in the middle of writing a lot

611
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 3: about black women, I end up staying away from the

612
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 3: reality TV shows because it's just a lot, And so

613
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 3: like I end up watching things like Selling Sunset or

614
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 3: things that where black women aren't necessarily censored because I'm

615
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 3: already writing about them and I'm thinking about them and

616
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 3: I'm living the life as a black woman. And then

617
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 3: when I'm like I'm done with this writing piece, I'm

618
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 3: done with this research piece. Then I can go back

619
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 3: into the shows where I know I'm going to be

620
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 3: hyper focused on what's going on with the black people

621
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 3: in the shows. So that's how I navigate and make

622
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 3: sure that I'm keeping my self whole and I'm keeping

623
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: myself safe and I'm mitigating harm to myself even as

624
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 3: I'm a viewer but also someone who's doing a lot

625
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 3: of this work and again living life as a black woman.

626
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with some of the shows that are

627
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: on the own network, So, like Ready to Love, there's

628
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: a newer one called The Never Have Met. That one's newer,

629
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: so you probably have not, but Ready to Love has

630
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: had a couple of seasons.

631
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,439
Speaker 2: I think I have heard of Ready to Love.

632
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: So it's hosted by nephew Tommy, who I think has

633
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: a background in like being a radio personality. They pick

634
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: a specific city to go to each season, and like

635
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: it is singles that they have in like at one

636
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: point it was a hotel that they were all in,

637
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: but usually it is that they are all living in

638
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: the same city and they have meetup spaces where the

639
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: guys are on one side, the women are on one side,

640
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: and they jointly talk about who they're going to keep

641
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: from the other side, to continue to get to know

642
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: and in the end they pair up, are kind of

643
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: way through the options, so to speak, and like they

644
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: will say they're ready to love and like continue this

645
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: relationship with one other person. And so in my mind

646
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: it does feel like now it's still you know, reality TV,

647
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: so we know that there's editing going on, but it

648
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: does feel like there is a different and these are

649
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,879
Speaker 1: like largely black casts. I think they have been all

650
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 1: black casts up until this point, and so it does

651
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 1: feel like there is a different slant to those kinds

652
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: of experiences, Like they don't feel as difficult for me

653
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: to watch, Like it feels like a more fun watch,

654
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: even when there is a little bit of messiness and

655
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,439
Speaker 1: you know whatever, Like that feels human, right, And so

656
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: it feels like just the editing and the way that

657
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: stories are told when I am assuming that the casting

658
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: is like more black people on the team, like the

659
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: editing team is likely at least more people of color,

660
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: and so it definitely feels like they are telling different

661
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: stories about black women and black men dating than you

662
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: would see on like a Bachelor or a Love is

663
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 1: Blind kind of thing.

664
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 3: Right, that brings up questions too, right, because the thing

665
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 3: is when you bring together black people, you're also going

666
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: to have the heterogeneity that exists in blackness.

667
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 2: Right, So it makes me wonder again to your.

668
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 3: Point, it's on Own, right, a network that we know

669
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 3: is promoting black people things and black people culture. And

670
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 3: I'm just like, I'm like, oh, I've never heard of

671
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 3: it because it's not on Netflix and it's not on Hulu.

672
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: Why it's not on Bravo? Right, I'm gonna have to

673
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 3: like go through and like look and see where I

674
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 3: can get Owned specifically, Right, is it on a streaming service?

675
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to work hard to get that. It

676
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 3: makes me upset. I should be able to go onto

677
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 3: Netflix or Own should be available in very much the

678
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 3: way that Netflix is available.

679
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: So in some ways, we're having.

680
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 3: A larger conversation, Right, it's not just about how people

681
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 3: are being portrayed, but what we actually have easy access

682
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 3: to because I pay my little six dollars a month

683
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 3: for Netflix, right, But now I have to go and

684
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,919
Speaker 3: search to see, well, how can I get Own as well?

685
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 3: It's like it literally is constraining my agency. Now I

686
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 3: have to go do all this work just to get

687
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 3: access to that. And so again it's this bigger question

688
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 3: of we're living in this society that seems hell bent

689
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 3: on showing us a particular kind of way. Literally, this

690
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 3: is the first time I'm hearing about the show from you.

691
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 3: And I have lots of black women friends who will

692
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 3: text me, have you seen this show? Have you seen

693
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 3: nat show? But nobody has texted me to tell me

694
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 3: about have you seen it? Like ready to love? Maybe

695
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 3: because they don't know about it either. Right, So, on

696
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 3: the one hand, that's what happens when you censor black

697
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 3: people in general, right, And so what you're bringing is

698
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 3: a diversity of experiences. We can talk about the editing team,

699
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 3: we can talk about what is going into telling those stories,

700
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 3: but even to begin just bringing black human beings together,

701
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 3: you're gonna get a diversity of stories. It's gonna be

702
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 3: hard for you to just pigeonhole all the black women

703
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 3: into controlling images and pigeonhole all the black men into

704
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 3: some sort of caricature that we have of black men

705
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 3: in general. And so I think that's even just the

706
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 3: starting point. And then we talk about all of the

707
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 3: folks that are going in to making sure those stories

708
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 3: are well rounded and people's humanity are coming forward. I

709
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 3: can't be sure that the solution for Love is Blind

710
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 3: is like hire more people of color. That's not necessarily

711
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 3: how white supremacy works. White supremacy gets internalized by all

712
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 3: kinds of people, even black people. So even if you

713
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 3: just throw black people at the show in terms of

714
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 3: the editing or the choices, that doesn't necessarily mean that

715
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 3: you're going to come out with the show that humanizes.

716
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 2: Black people, you know what I mean.

717
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 3: And so it's like we need to also have a

718
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 3: conversation about why there's a own network where we have

719
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 3: to go there to see black people who are also

720
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 3: fully human. Why do I have to go to a

721
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 3: completely different network to go watch shows that show black

722
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 3: people in their full humanity.

723
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: That's a travesty.

724
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 3: No one's writing about that, right, No one's writing about

725
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 3: the ready to Love. So we're not writing about this,

726
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,720
Speaker 3: like we're still stuck in the controversy of Love is Blind.

727
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 3: I want to see articles about ready to Love. I

728
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 3: want to see think pieces. You know, in some ways,

729
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 3: when we saw this with Insecure, right, there was just

730
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:36,760
Speaker 3: this well roundedness. We were actually having important conversations about

731
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: black humanity because Isaiah was like, I'm gonna show us

732
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 3: in all of our messy glory. Right, it shouldn't have

733
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 3: to be a fictional show to get that. We should

734
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 3: also get that from just the way Black people live

735
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 3: their heterogeneous lives and have experienced their heterogeneous humanity. So

736
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 3: now I'm gonna go look for it because I want that,

737
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 3: you know, I want to see that exactly, exactly.

738
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So you know.

739
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: The other thing, Doctor Sarah, that has been interesting as

740
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: there have been more shows and more contestants talking about

741
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: their experiences. One of the things we know that often

742
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 1: happens in these shows on like a Love Is Blind

743
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: and The Bachelor, like there also tends to be a

744
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: lot of alcohol available. We also know that sleep, it

745
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: seems like from some of the contestants, is difficult, like

746
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: they keep them up late and shooting all hours of

747
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: the day and night. Can you talk about some of

748
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: the things you think need to be present just in

749
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: terms of the wellness of all contestants for experiences like this.

750
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 3: So they should have the option of not having to

751
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 3: drink if they don't want to, right, and thinking about

752
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 3: for starters, people have often suggested having actual clinicians on

753
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,240
Speaker 3: the show. I think that could go a really long way,

754
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 3: and not just anyal clinicians, Like we could have a

755
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 3: variety of clinicians. If you're going to have people on

756
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 3: the show, make sure you have black qualified clinicians on

757
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 3: the show. And if it's reality TV, do we not

758
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 3: want reality? Do we not want people that are well rested?

759
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 3: Do we not want people who are getting three meals

760
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 3: a day, who's drinking alcohol all day and staying up

761
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 3: all night. I mean people do that in college. They

762
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 3: don't do that. So we could talk about what could

763
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 3: be there for wellness. But if that isn't there, what

764
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 3: is it that you're trying to show us?

765
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: Then?

766
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 3: What are your intentions when you are artificially creating situations

767
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 3: that are terrible for people's mental well being? What are

768
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 3: your actual intention What is it that you want us

769
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 3: to be coming away with when you're creating situations that

770
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 3: are actually bad for people's mental health. So, again, if

771
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 3: black people are going to go on these shows, I

772
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 3: would stay. Demand that you're able to get the amount

773
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 3: of sleep that you need to be able to function properly,

774
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 3: Demand that you can see a professional If you're having

775
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 3: any mental health issues that you need to talk with.

776
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 3: I would demand that you get to eat healthy food,

777
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 3: right if you're vegan or vegetarian, that you have those options,

778
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 3: that you get to take walks. I know that they

779
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 3: often make them leave their cell phones and things, but like,

780
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 3: what is it that you need? Do you need time

781
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 3: to read? Do you need time to take walks? Do

782
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 3: you need time to exercise? I almost feel like, if

783
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 3: you're going to go on the show as a black person,

784
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: think about what you need to thrive in your life,

785
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 3: and then what are like the many ways? What are

786
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 3: the basic things that you need to have to be

787
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: able to go on the show and do it in

788
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 3: a way that's meaningful to you. Right, So there's the

789
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:04,439
Speaker 3: basics like sleep, not drinking all the time, being able

790
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 3: to exercise, But what else do you need to be

791
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 3: able to feel like you're presenting your best self? And

792
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 3: again this is a question for black folks though. If

793
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 3: you know that this is a show where they're priming

794
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 3: people to really be their worst selves, do you want

795
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 3: to do it? Is that a good way to take

796
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 3: care of yourself?

797
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 2: Right?

798
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 3: We're talking about that first session where I would be

799
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 3: talking with my client, Well, we also know these are

800
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 3: the things that happen on there is that a space

801
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 3: that you feel safe and ultimately that's what that becomes

802
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 3: a discussion about. Is that a place where you feel

803
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 3: safe to be able to be who you want to

804
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 3: be in order to feel as though you're presenting your

805
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 3: best self.

806
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, great questions to ask yourself if you're considering you

807
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, So, doctor Seric, just based on your

808
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: research and the work that you're doing with clients, what

809
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: do you have to say about the state of dating

810
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 1: for black women right now?

811
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 3: Well, now we're in this phase where everyone is understanding

812
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 3: that dating is terrible and online dating is the worst.

813
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 3: Black women have always known this. We always see this

814
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 3: in our world where like the worst things happen to

815
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 3: black folks first, because that's the way white supremacy works, right,

816
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 3: That's the way living in a society that dehumanizes and

817
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 3: d means Black people and is like constantly that's the goal.

818
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 3: So any negative things that are happening were typically the

819
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 3: community that's going to feel it worse. So Black women

820
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 3: have been trying to tell us for the last ten

821
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 3: to twenty ten to fifteen years online dating is actually terrible,

822
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 3: And so I think that black women are still saying that,

823
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 3: but I think people are listening now because white women

824
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 3: are coming out and saying that it's really terrible. Bumbo

825
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 3: has all these horrible ads where they're trying to get

826
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 3: women to go back on and to do whatever. So

827
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 3: what I can say, the state of dating still remains

828
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 3: challenging for but it still remains uniquely.

829
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 2: Challenging for Black women.

830
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: And if it's something that Black women want to go into,

831
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 3: it's something that I think that they should do with

832
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 3: their social supports intact. Right, who are you going to

833
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 3: talk to when things are getting really hard, when you

834
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 3: feel like you're facing exclusion because you're a black woman.

835
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 3: Who you're going to talk to if you're going online

836
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 3: or in person and you're feeling as though black men

837
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 3: aren't interested in you, and it feels like you're not

838
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 3: able to meet up or find the men who meet

839
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 3: your romantic partner preferences. Right, Who's going to hold you

840
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 3: down in those moments? So what I have to say is,

841
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 3: because the state of dating in general is terrible, and

842
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 3: then online basically reproduces gendered and racial inequality, it's really

843
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 3: important for black women to make sure that their supports

844
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 3: are intact, people who will accept you as you are,

845
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 3: people who will tell you the truth about your situation,

846
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 3: that all of those things are as you venture out,

847
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 3: or as you're continuing, or as you may be returning,

848
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 3: because black women also take a step back because it's

849
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 3: hard to literally be doing this for even six months

850
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 3: strict so making sure that the things that make you

851
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 3: feel fully human, those are all intact as you're going

852
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 3: into this, and to remember, honestly, it's not you like

853
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 3: you know, there are decisions, agentic decisions that you can

854
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 3: be making all of that, but you literally are existing

855
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 3: in a society that is determined, first of all to

856
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 3: strip women of their agency. We see this in multiple arenas,

857
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 3: and then for black women, not only to strip black

858
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 3: women of their agency, but also to tell them that

859
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 3: they're not worth anything. So like, literally, that's the society

860
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 3: that you live in. You have nothing to do with that.

861
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 3: You happen to be born in black skin, that's not

862
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 3: your problem whatsoever. You're going to feel the consequences of that.

863
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 3: So you have to take care of yourself as you're

864
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 3: stepping out because the dating is not great. Now we

865
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 3: have young men who really are enraged at the progress

866
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 3: that women are making. They're really enraged at the fact

867
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 3: that women are really taking their agency seriously. So take

868
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 3: your agency seriously and do what you need to do

869
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 3: to protect yourself, to protect your well being, to protect

870
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 3: your mental health as you search for romantic partners, because

871
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 3: even though it's not your fault, you're living in a

872
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 3: society that is determined to bring you down. That's literally

873
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,760
Speaker 3: the point of white supremacy. Unfortunately, we as black women

874
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 3: have to do extra work to make sure that though

875
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: consequences of living in that society, we're not feeling it

876
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 3: in our bodies, we're not feeling it in our minds

877
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 3: or even if we're feeling it to be able to

878
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 3: mitigate those stressors and bring down the distress and address

879
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 3: the distress as we're experiencing all that.

880
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that, doctor Sarah. So, where

881
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 1: can we stay connected with you and all the work

882
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: that you're doing. Do you have a website and social

883
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 1: media handles you'd like to share?

884
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I have a website. You just type in

885
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 3: my name, doctor Sarah Audienca's cold and it should come up.

886
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 2: It's a square.

887
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 3: Space website and I'm on X as much as a

888
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,479
Speaker 3: successfool as it is. I'm on there, but you can

889
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 3: also if you just Google me, you can contact me

890
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 3: through my website. And I'm a professor at LMU. So

891
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 3: if you go to LMU and you can email me

892
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 3: from there, and you can also DM me on X,

893
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 3: I still call it Twitter, but on X you can

894
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 3: also dm me there.

895
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: Same still call it Twitter as well. We will be

896
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,359
Speaker 1: sure to include all of that in the show notes.

897
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with us today,

898
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: doctor Sarah. I really appreciate it.

899
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 2: No problem. Doctor Joy was wonderful to chat with you.

900
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Doctor Sarah was able to join me

901
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: for this conversation. To learn more about her and her work,

902
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the show notes at the Therapy

903
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot Com SASH Session three sixty three, and

904
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 1: don't forget to text two of your girls right now

905
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: and tell them to check out the episode. If you're

906
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist

907
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com SASH directory. And

908
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic or

909
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: just be in community with other sisters, come on over

910
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy

911
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 1: corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You

912
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: can join us at Community dot Therapy for blackgirls dot com.

913
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor.

914
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much

915
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to

916
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

917
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 2: What's