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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media, Hello, and welcome to cool people who

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Speaker 1: did cool stuff. You're a weekly reminder that one day

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Speaker 1: podcasters will be hunted and they will need to hide

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Speaker 1: in small closets. But they'll be so used to it

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Speaker 1: that at first we'll think we're safe. But then we'll

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Speaker 1: realize that we're too in love with the sound of

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Speaker 1: our own voices, and they'll hear us whisper you between

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Speaker 1: the boss, and we'll be throwing to ads. As isn't

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Speaker 1: to throw to ads, but it's what we'll be doing

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Speaker 1: when they catch us and with me in this terrible

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Speaker 1: fate that awaits us all as Chelsea Weaversmith.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Hi, live from the Heidi Hole in my own house.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me again, Mark.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And the one who will be masterminding hiding all

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Speaker 1: of us is none other than Queen Sophie Lickterman.

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Speaker 2: Bloody Sophie, Bloody Sophie.

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Speaker 1: Former Queen I fired Ralph, remember right, totally Yeah, shortest

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Speaker 1: rain of all times.

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Speaker 2: Noble noble. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So we are on part two of Well heighty Holes.

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Speaker 1: You probably guessed because it was in the title and

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Speaker 1: you already listened to part one. But that's where we

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Speaker 1: are at and we have just finally explained a bunch

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Speaker 1: of stuff about some kings and queens, and don't worry,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be more of it. But first we

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Speaker 1: can finally introduce this week's main named cool person, who

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Speaker 1: is like all things, he's not the only one who

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Speaker 1: did this stuff. And there's actually all these papers that

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Speaker 1: I really want to read, but I only have so

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Speaker 1: much time in this world about the way that actually

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Speaker 1: all of this persecution ended up changing the role of

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Speaker 1: women within the church and actually ended up giving like

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Speaker 1: women a lot more positions of power, even though the

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Speaker 1: pope was like, no, we can't let women have more power,

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Speaker 1: and they were like, doesn't matter, We're doing it anyway.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that sounds cool.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know as much about that yet, because

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Speaker 1: I found out about that about two hours ago, fair enough,

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Speaker 1: and I started reading a bunch of stuff and then

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Speaker 1: I was like, what am I doing?

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Speaker 2: I have to finish the script?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, I was already done with the script, and

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Speaker 1: then I was adding more to it.

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Speaker 2: Oh No, that's the curse. That's the historian podcast curse.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because there's always more.

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Speaker 2: There's more context, more context. I need a context. I'm

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Speaker 2: addicted to it.

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Speaker 1: The whole world is just a rubber band ball of context.

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Speaker 2: That's true.

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Speaker 1: So Nicholas Owen, not known as Saint Nicholas Owen until

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy, was born in Oxford, which I assume is

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Speaker 1: in England, and it is if the year fifteen sixty two.

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Speaker 1: I've probably even been there, but I still refuse to

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Speaker 1: admit that I know anything about English geography, even though

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Speaker 1: i've actually it's been anyway, whatever, isn't it fun to

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Speaker 1: have performative outrage about a thing that doesn't actually affect you.

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Speaker 1: That's what I like to do, is what gets me

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Speaker 1: out of bed.

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Speaker 2: It feels good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. He was born in fifteen sixty two. He's one

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Speaker 1: of four sons. His father was named Walter Owen, and

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Speaker 1: if history knows his mother's name, what I read bothered

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Speaker 1: to tell me. His father was a carpenter, and he

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Speaker 1: decided to follow in his father's footsteps, and he prenticed

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Speaker 1: as a joiner, a carpenter specializing in joinery, and they

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Speaker 1: were a devout Catholic family. One of his brothers became

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Speaker 1: a priest, and another brother worked as a printer, printing

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Speaker 1: illegal Catholic literature.

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Speaker 2: Well, there you go. The printing press is here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. That was the like I was like, I think,

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Speaker 1: hold on, I have a thig somewhere in here. It's

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Speaker 1: one of these things where I have learned what year

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Speaker 1: the printing press was invented many times. I've looked it

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Speaker 1: up many times.

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Speaker 2: For this show, over and over as I but it's.

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Speaker 1: As you start pulling apart all these threads of history,

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Speaker 1: then the dates matter to me, Like, h hmm. I

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Speaker 1: didn't care about what year the English Civil War was

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Speaker 1: when I first did episodes with English Civil War because

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Speaker 1: there's only about a five year period that I was

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Speaker 1: like really paying attention to, right, Yeah, But now this

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Speaker 1: stuff that's happening in about sixty years before it, I'm like, oh, oh,

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Speaker 1: I see why this matters because it relates to this

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Speaker 1: other thing.

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Speaker 2: A little connecting tissue. Yeah, it looks like just for

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Speaker 2: all of our knowledge, fourteen fifty thereabouts. So yeah, we've

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Speaker 2: had it for about one thousand years, which feels like

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Speaker 2: so little when you're looking. Yeah, Carriod, you're just like,

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Speaker 2: as long as I know, like fourteen or fifteen, that's

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Speaker 2: all I need to know, even though it's yeah, not

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Speaker 2: a thousand years. One hundred years.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, it's been a I think you're trying

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Speaker 1: to say to now, And I was like, well, it's

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Speaker 1: more like six hundred, but you.

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Speaker 2: Know, yeah, I'm being insane.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So young Nick did not have an easy life.

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Speaker 1: He had pretty bad health. He was small. He was

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Speaker 1: generally described as deformed, and he walked with the limb

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Speaker 1: from where a horse fell on him and the broken

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Speaker 1: bone never quite set right. But when he was twenty

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Speaker 1: six or so, he joined the Jesuit Order, not as

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Speaker 1: a priest but as a lay brother, and I think

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Speaker 1: he already knew what he wanted to do. I think

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Speaker 1: he was like, I'm doing this because I'm going to

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Speaker 1: build priest holes. He spent eighteen years of his life

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Speaker 1: building priest holes. He built hundreds of these things. People

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Speaker 1: are still discovering them. WHOA, that's cool. Yeah, people are

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Speaker 1: still finding like escape tunnels. And like there was like

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Speaker 1: a thing where I think it was in the seventies. No,

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Speaker 1: it was like three hundred years later, So the seventeen hundreds.

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Speaker 1: I was close. There was a seven in there. A

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Speaker 1: bunch of kids were just like playing in a house

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Speaker 1: and then they like kind of ran into a wallboard,

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Speaker 1: and the wallboard like pivoted on an axis. It like

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Speaker 1: revealed a hidden chamber.

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Speaker 2: Wow. There's something like very Disney about that, I know. Wow.

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Speaker 1: Wow. And each one he built is very bespoke this business.

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Speaker 1: Each one was different, right, because it had to respond

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Speaker 1: to the very exact things that this particular house had,

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Speaker 1: and because you never want to build it the same way,

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Speaker 1: because if one of them gets busted, you don't want

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Speaker 1: them to just be like, oh, we know what this

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Speaker 1: guy's trick is.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he worked as a traveling carpenter, doing whatever odd

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Speaker 1: jobs he could during the day, and then he built

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Speaker 1: priest holes in Catholic houses at night by candlelight. It

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Speaker 1: seems like he usually worked alone. Although I read one

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Speaker 1: thing that he had an apprentice, but I actually think

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Speaker 1: that source was wrong becauzeneraism. Other sources that the guy

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Speaker 1: who was caught with him and they called his apprentice

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Speaker 1: was actually more like an apprentice to one of the priests. Again,

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Speaker 1: you probably run into this a lot. I think what

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Speaker 1: your podcast is kind of about taking this thing that

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of pop knowledge about and then being

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Speaker 1: like all the pop knowledge is wrong. Sorry, guys. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but sometimes the academic knowledge too, and it's like

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Speaker 2: it's pretty maddening because it's like you trust your academic sources,

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Speaker 2: like those people are like my patron saints are like

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Speaker 2: people in academia. But then sometimes you're reading to academic

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Speaker 2: pieces and you're just like, well, you said this, and

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Speaker 2: you said this, and then you're like, your source is

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Speaker 2: actually kind of dubious here, why did you use that source?

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Speaker 2: And I'm sure you go through the same thing and

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Speaker 2: it's pretty panantic of us.

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Speaker 1: No, totally, and like and you run across you're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: well why are you saying this? Like right, what is

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Speaker 1: your skin in this game? Even when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: something from like the year twelve?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're processing it through whatever lens, like no

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Speaker 2: matter what. So you can actually take even a fact

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Speaker 2: and process it in all these different ways and it

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Speaker 2: can start taking on new meanings. So it's it's history

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Speaker 2: is not easy. It's not an easy thing to actually

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Speaker 2: figure out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I get so annoyed because I want the

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting pop versions of things to be true

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Speaker 1: and they just almost never are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like when I pick a topic, I'll

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Speaker 1: like dig through the pop stuff first, and I make

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Speaker 1: pop history, right, I am not in the story me too, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but like you have to dig through all of the

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Speaker 1: people being like, ah, this is the way it was.

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Speaker 1: And part of the reason I guess obsessed with context

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Speaker 1: is because it changes what you read when you read

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Speaker 1: the like thousand word article on well now half of

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Speaker 1: them are AI generate, which is even more of a nightmare.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, he's working mostly alone, probably, but he's also

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Speaker 1: not the guy who does it all. But he's still whatever.

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Speaker 1: He dedicated his life to it. He changed his name constantly,

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Speaker 1: but he's most famously remembered today by the nickname Little John,

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Speaker 1: though he was also called Draper, which is a cool name,

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Speaker 1: and little.

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Speaker 2: Michael, little Michael, I.

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Speaker 1: Know, and I think it's it's it's literally because he

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Speaker 1: was kind of small, yeah, and the pop version is

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Speaker 1: like and it helped him with his job because he

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Speaker 1: could fit into the small spaces. Oh sure, yeah, yeah probably,

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Speaker 1: but like I don't know, it's kind of cart and horse,

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Speaker 1: wrong order kind of thing going on. Like I'm sure

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Speaker 1: he could have done just fine if he was a

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Speaker 1: different size.

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Speaker 2: He was big Michael, Yeah, he was big Michael. She

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Speaker 2: was Henry the Eighth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, big draper.

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Speaker 2: The big drape Yeah yeah, cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. He worked for the necessities of life. He also

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Speaker 1: like worked for money as a you know, carpenter during

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Speaker 1: the day, but he didn't get paid to build these

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Speaker 1: priest holes. And all of his work in tight spaces

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Speaker 1: is probably what left him with a hernia and this

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Speaker 1: only made his health worse. Oh no, and he didn't stop.

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Speaker 1: And the spots he built were elaborate. Some had feeding

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Speaker 1: tubes because priests were getting caught when they would emerge

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Speaker 1: for food and water. Like the presiders would like steak

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Speaker 1: out a place. It's not like when you see movies

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Speaker 1: of people coming to look for hidden people. They like

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Speaker 1: stomp around while someone's under the floorboards and then they leave,

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Speaker 1: you know, like they would basically lay siege to houses

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Speaker 1: for like like later some people are going to get

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Speaker 1: caught after like a twelve days, you know, m h

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Speaker 1: because they would be like, we know this guy's here,

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Speaker 1: and they'd be like, no, he's not, and they would

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Speaker 1: look for days and they wouldn't find him, you know.

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Speaker 2: And then I yeah, like you're saying, they'd stake it

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Speaker 2: out and probably watch for any like sign that yeah,

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Speaker 2: something might be going on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, light through various holes and whatever,

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Speaker 1: all kinds of things, and so yeah, they would feed

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Speaker 1: like hot broth downfeeding two Like what a wild way

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Speaker 1: to live for a while.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is reminding me of which couldn't be

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Speaker 2: more of a different situation. But I did this episode

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Speaker 2: last Halloween called Buried Alive about the history of people

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Speaker 2: being buried alive, and I found this whole on newspapers

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Speaker 2: dot Com. This like totally forgotten phenomenon where people.

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Speaker 1: Would they build the bells.

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Speaker 2: No, the bells bells happen, but it's kind of fake.

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Speaker 2: It like kind of happened, ye, But this is literally

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Speaker 2: people in like the thirties forties who did it as

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Speaker 2: like a sideshow act, and they would bury themselves underground

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Speaker 2: for like ninety days, and they'd have like a phone

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Speaker 2: down there and people would feed them through the tube

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Speaker 2: and people could call them on the phone and talk

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Speaker 2: to them, and it's kind of incredible, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of women did it, and there were like these battles

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Speaker 2: of who could stay underground, like someone's at the used

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Speaker 2: car lot buried and like another person's at the county

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Speaker 2: fair buried and they're like in this locked in battle

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Speaker 2: to see who can stay underground the longest.

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Speaker 1: What a good world we've built. That's amazing though.

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Speaker 2: It's honest, right, it's really fun.

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Speaker 1: People do real strange things.

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Speaker 2: They're like characters too, you know. They were just like

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Speaker 2: total showmen and show women.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, this.

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Speaker 2: Is definitely a higher risk factor though than they were experiencing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I know, like I've never committed a crime, but sometimes

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Speaker 1: when I'm imagining myself having committed crimes, when you're like

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Speaker 1: in a squat and there's like cops in there looking

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Speaker 1: for you, I hate it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds horrible.

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Speaker 1: Like I was trying to explain once to my family

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Speaker 1: the specific panic attacks that happens when you're like in

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Speaker 1: a squat that's like laid siege tube with cops outside

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Speaker 1: you've barricade yourselves in. And they were like, you're the

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Speaker 1: only person I will ever meet who has had this problem. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like I am too. While the other people

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Speaker 1: were fine with it, I'm the one who was freaking out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean rightly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would struggle to hang out in like I

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Speaker 1: did a bunch of so that it's about the Warsaw

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Speaker 1: Ghetto uprising, and you know, one of the people who

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Speaker 1: survived to write a book about is time spend a

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Speaker 1: couple of days standing in a wall.

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Speaker 2: Jeez.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And just like I don't know, I wonder what

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Speaker 1: I'm made of?

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: But do you know what you can be made of?

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Speaker 1: Do you know what this podcast is made of? It

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Speaker 1: is built around ads. It's the gravy through the feeding tube.

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Speaker 1: Give me that broth, Yeah, broth, here's some ads, unless

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Speaker 1: you have a cooler zone media, in which case you

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Speaker 1: just get the transitions, just the best part. Andrew Beck. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so some of the Heidi holes that they would build

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Speaker 1: would have second Heidi holes within the Heidi hole.

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Speaker 2: Ooh that's smart.

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Speaker 1: Really the hunters would find an empty hiding hole.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and and they'd leave like a little pope pat behind.

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Speaker 1: So he had like, oh, we all got the pope.

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Speaker 1: There are a bunch of stories of like they were

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Speaker 1: trying to catch this one guy. Hmm. I can't remember

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Speaker 1: the man's name off the top of my head. He's

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Speaker 1: one of the main sources who because he survived all

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Speaker 1: of this and he wrote his memoirs and I started

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Speaker 1: reading them but oh my god, do priests at this

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Speaker 1: time right in nonsensequal ways. It is like sixteen pages

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Speaker 1: of jargon about the church, and I'm like, are you

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Speaker 1: going to get to the plot? And the answer is maybe,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know. I didn't get that far anyway.

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Speaker 1: One of the people who survived all of this was

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Speaker 1: one of the more important I think bishops at the time.

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Speaker 1: They would like catch him where they would show up

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Speaker 1: and they would see the church candles just snuffed out

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Speaker 1: with like smoke up and they would like, know, he's

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Speaker 1: in the house and they still couldn't find him. Wow. Actually,

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Speaker 1: later our hero's gonna bust him out of the Tower

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Speaker 1: of London. But we'll get to that.

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Speaker 2: Cool. Cool, cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So he would also build obvious priest holes elsewhere

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Speaker 1: in the house. They could be found quickly, so they're like, ah,

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Speaker 1: we found the priest hall. There's nothing in it. Most

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Speaker 1: of these holes were tiny and uncomfortable. These were not

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Speaker 1: priest rooms. It is much easier to hide a coffin

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Speaker 1: sized space between a ceiling and the next floor than

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Speaker 1: it is to hide a whole room. Yeah. Behind fireplaces

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Speaker 1: and understairs were favorite spots for him. Actually, I would

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Speaker 1: have assumed most of them would involve digging into the ground,

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Speaker 1: but those were pretty rare, interesting and I do not

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Speaker 1: know why, maybe because it takes a lot of work

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Speaker 1: to dig, but they dug escape tunnels and shit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's very weird.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Sometimes he would build spots accessed by an entire

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Speaker 1: fake chimney. He would patiently chisel out masonry to free

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Speaker 1: a few blocks to build rooms within walls. He tended

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Speaker 1: to avoid outside walls because I think they were easier

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Speaker 1: for hunters to measure. And then I found one source

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Speaker 1: that says he used false perspectives and illusion but I

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Speaker 1: could not find an exam of what they're talking about.

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Speaker 1: And it is driving me.

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Speaker 2: Mad now because that sounds really cool.

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Speaker 1: I know, And so I'm thinking it might have been

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Speaker 1: like cool shit with wallpaper or like angles of the

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Speaker 1: ceiling joist or something, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, maybe like some mirrors.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's now the patron saint of illusionists and escape artists.

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Speaker 2: Really.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh that's cool. And they would build smaller cubbies too,

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Speaker 1: so people could hide their you know, religious paraphernalia, like

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Speaker 1: their bibles and rosaries and candles and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes he worked in huge mansions. There's a thing I

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Speaker 1: was reading that was basically saying that like a lot

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Speaker 1: of these like manor houses at the time kind of

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Speaker 1: had to be like the everything house for the town.

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Speaker 1: You know, they would be like which is part of

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Speaker 1: why I think they like jails and shit and them

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Speaker 1: sometimes okay, but like so, he'd often work in these

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Speaker 1: huge manners. Take Hindlip Hall, where he built eleven or

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Speaker 1: twelve distinct priest holes. And if you want to imagine

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Speaker 1: this place, just imagine a English rich person manner that's

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Speaker 1: huge and sort of like a castle but not quite

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Speaker 1: where you're probably watching some TV show there that you

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Speaker 1: wish had different class analysis than it does. Sure, if

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Speaker 1: you're imagining that, you're imagining Hindlipaul correctly. They hit a

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Speaker 1: lot of people there. There was a tunnel from the

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Speaker 1: cellars to the garden, and folks didn't rediscover that tunnel

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Speaker 1: until nineteen seventy four, which is wild because that place

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Speaker 1: had been rebuilt since then. Wow, the Gatehouse of Hindlipaol

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Speaker 1: was built in fifteen ninety specifically so that it would

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Speaker 1: hide the construction of other spots throughout the house. They're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course there's a lot of construction going on. We're

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Speaker 1: built another wing on the house. Never mind the like

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Speaker 1: one weird itinerant guy with a limb who's building stuff,

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Speaker 1: and the habing Tins were living there at the time.

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Speaker 1: I've read contradictory stuff about their family, because why would

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Speaker 1: everything agree with itself? But as best as I can tell,

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Speaker 1: the older brother, Edward was arrested for treason and beheaded

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Speaker 1: in fifteen eighty six because oh Mary, Queen of Scots,

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Speaker 1: tried to assassinate Queen Elizabeth and become queen, and so

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Speaker 1: she got executed, and so did a bunch of other people,

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Speaker 1: including the older guy. Thomas Habington, though was the Queen

354
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Speaker 1: Elizabeth's godson, and so he was spared, and so he

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Speaker 1: continued to build Heidi holes and work against Wow yeah wow,

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Speaker 1: And of course many of these were built, including a

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Speaker 1: hindlip Paul by Saint Nicholas Owen, and these holes seem

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Speaker 1: to be effective. I spent a long time trying to

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Speaker 1: find an actual number of like people who died when

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Speaker 1: I'm like, because like when you talk about the Protestants

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Speaker 1: and the marrying persecution, like, oh, two hundred and forty

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Speaker 1: some people died or whatever, right, You're like, all right,

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Speaker 1: how many Catholics died And it's like yeah, And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: does that mean not very many? I think it means

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Speaker 1: not very many. I think it's about like three hundred

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Speaker 1: over like one hundred years or something, you know. But

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Speaker 1: it is also still like so many people are going

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Speaker 1: to jail, so many people are being evicted. It's a

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Speaker 1: bigger thing than just burning people at the stake.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because you have to measure yeah, like them material

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Speaker 2: effect of like seizing property and all that kind of

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Speaker 2: stuff too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems to be that these holes were effective

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Speaker 1: because the number of priests getting caught. This is another part.

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Speaker 1: Like pretty much you were only getting burned to the

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Speaker 1: steak if you were like the priest. Okay, and the

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Speaker 1: priests got really good at hiding and so you can

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Speaker 1: see this, like imagine a graph. The number of priests

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Speaker 1: getting caught is going down significantly, but the number of

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Speaker 1: priests working in the country is going up significantly.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, so they knew what they were doing. They're

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Speaker 2: figuring it out. Yeah, And like spreading that word is

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Speaker 2: also so interesting, like to think about how you know,

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Speaker 2: priests found out where to go and when to go

385
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Speaker 2: and like there just had to be so many people

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Speaker 2: collaborating on this beyond just the person building them.

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Speaker 1: No, that's such a good point. Like again, I actually

388
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Speaker 1: thought I was going to do a little footnote about

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Speaker 1: this guy and then talk about like how people hid

390
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Speaker 1: Jewish people during the Holocaust. Yeah, which I'll probably get

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Speaker 1: to it a different point because I'm Heidi holes are cool,

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Speaker 1: but like I know that, for example, one of the

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Speaker 1: main places that hid a lot of Jewish people very

394
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Speaker 1: successfully was Amsterdam and the Netherlands more broadly, and it

395
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Speaker 1: was because a huge percentage of the Dutch people were

396
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Speaker 1: part of the resistance. But a lot of other countries

397
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Speaker 1: the resistance was very like stabby and shooty, but the

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Speaker 1: Dutch resistance was like Heidi, right, and it was much

399
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Speaker 1: more of a mass movement. And so the thing it

400
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,959
Speaker 1: was very effective at was hiding people. The thing it

401
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 1: wasn't as effective at was like killing Nazis. You win some,

402
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 1: you lose some, sure, But yeah, And I've read the

403
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Speaker 1: different things about like how they kne where the Heidi

404
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,120
Speaker 1: holes were, but they kind of they struck me as

405
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,040
Speaker 1: probably apocryphal, where it was like, ah, there was this

406
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,919
Speaker 1: sigil of a lamb made on a wax seal on

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Speaker 1: the outside of the houses. And it reminds me a

408
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Speaker 1: lot of like hobo signs where I was going to.

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Speaker 2: Say the say like anarchists, like like you're saying like squat,

410
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Speaker 2: like here's the squad, here's the marking that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally, and that actually is real. There is

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Speaker 1: a squad or sign.

413
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Speaker 2: It's a yeah, yeah, it's real.

414
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Speaker 1: Expect you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do,

415
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,520
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, And it is an end with an arrow

416
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,360
Speaker 1: on the top, and then a more modern one will

417
00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 1: also have a little crossbiece on the bottom, so it

418
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 1: looks kind of like a female symbol and a male symbol.

419
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Speaker 1: And these are like on squatted buildings and places where

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Speaker 1: you can kind of publicly squat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you know what was that thing called for train

422
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 2: hopping crew change Guide, which is another way that information

423
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,640
Speaker 2: spread in this interesting way about like the right times

424
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,680
Speaker 2: and places that you could hop trains. And again it's

425
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Speaker 2: like this like total offline. I mean, I'm sure it's

426
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,159
Speaker 2: online now, but at that time it was just the

427
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 2: way you spread information.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're not allowed to put it online, and every

429
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 1: now and then people leak it online and then I

430
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Speaker 1: think gets mad at them.

431
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you shouldn't do that. Yeah, you're ruining it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know there's the thing about like, oh,

433
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Speaker 1: all the hoboes in nineteen thirties use these all these signs,

434
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 1: and like maybe probably, but like I don't know, I

435
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Speaker 1: don't think that anyone was like putting the symbol of

436
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 1: the lamb on their house to be like here, you're safe,

437
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 1: because like the second person who's going to know that

438
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:03,680
Speaker 1: is a priest hunter.

439
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 2: Is a priest hunter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Now it feels

440
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,160
Speaker 2: like it has to be just word of mouth or something,

441
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 2: but I don't know.

442
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. And like these communities of trust where like

443
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 1: people have been co religionists for thousands of years, yeah,

444
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 1: or a thousand years or so. In fifteen ninety four,

445
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 1: Owen was caught. They arrested him and they tortured him

446
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 1: to try and get information out of him about where

447
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 1: these holes were, about where people could be hiding, and

448
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,679
Speaker 1: he didn't say shit, and they let him go.

449
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 2: WHOA Yeah, why do you think they let him go?

450
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,919
Speaker 1: I think because it's like there's still kind of a

451
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 1: rule of law thing going on. Okay, yeah, and he's

452
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 1: not a priest, and I think that they're just like

453
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 1: it's also just like no one talks to everyone walks.

454
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 1: It's like a default thing to remember. It's like generally safer,

455
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 1: you know.

456
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 2: Sure.

457
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 1: And then in fifteen ninety seven he helped two Catholics,

458
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,399
Speaker 1: including that priest I forgot to put into the script,

459
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 1: or actually I didn't forget. What I do is I like,

460
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 1: I intentionally minimize the number of named characters I include,

461
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: because my brain goes blank when people tell me like

462
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: eight million names.

463
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 2: It's ter I do the same thing.

464
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And so I was like, oh, this guy

465
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 1: isn't like important enough. I think it might be Girard,

466
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 1: but he actually is important enough. I've like, well, hmm,

467
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 1: if you want to follow this further, he is important enough, right,

468
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: And he's in the Tower of London, this priest, which

469
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: is the big scary jail, and it's the city's most

470
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 1: notorious prison, the country's most notorious prisons where they have

471
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 1: put kings and shit, you know, when they're arrested. Because

472
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 1: it's also not safe to be a king, they get

473
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 1: arrested a lot too. So the Catholics bribe some guards

474
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 1: and they go up to the roof and they throw

475
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: a weighted cord down and the rescuers, who are on

476
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,479
Speaker 1: a boat, attach a rope and send it up like

477
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: and then the Catholics go hand over hand down the

478
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 1: rope at a steep angle, like fucking animated Robin Hood.

479
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what's say. I's like, wow.

480
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 1: And at least one of them I believe is the priest,

481
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 1: the one who wrote a book about this later made

482
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: it to roam into Safety.

483
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 2: Wow. It's bad ass.

484
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,479
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then one of the most accidentally famous moments

485
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 1: in all of history hits our story, the gunpowder plot.

486
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: Remember remember the fifth of November?

487
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 2: How could I forget it?

488
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: Yeah?

489
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 2: I was around in two thousand and four.

490
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

491
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, my mom has a lot of memories of celebrating

492
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 2: Guy Fox's day in England, and you know, making the

493
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 2: dummy and putting it in the wheelbarrow with a bunch

494
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 2: of fireworks. And it does sound fun, that's for sure.

495
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 1: It's both fun and so sketchy. It's such a sketchy concept,

496
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: not just the fireworks part. That's fine. No, it's not like, hey,

497
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 1: kids have bottle rocket fights. Just be safe, you know,

498
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: like whatever, Yeah, but like, actually, maybe do reading don't

499
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: just do that because a podcaster said it. But like

500
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: the idea of like, oh, we're going to burn this

501
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 1: guy Fox effigy, Like.

502
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 2: It's not a yeah, but I like the building a

503
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 2: dummy and putting fireworks on it. If you just take

504
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,479
Speaker 2: it completely out of its content.

505
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: Oh yes, just make a James one, make them both whatever,

506
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 1: they're both probably dicks. Well all yeah, yeah, well that

507
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: was their idea.

508
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, there you go, if you honor his memory, blow.

509
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 1: Them all up. Yeah, because they certainly were willing to

510
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: kill a lot of innocent people to do this thing.

511
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: This isn't really an episode about the gunpowder plot because

512
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: there's so so much to weighe through that is somehow

513
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: so politically charged. But I'm still going to do a

514
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 1: little bit about it. And when I was like first

515
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: sol v for Vendetta, I think I read the book

516
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: before I read the book before I saw the movie.

517
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: You know, I was like, Oh, this guy Fox person

518
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: sounds kind of cool. And then you're like, read it

519
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: more about it, and you're like, not just some bullshit.

520
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: Just like yeah, it's not.

521
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 1: But then if you keep reading it in this context

522
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: of like it is absolutely criminal to be a Catholic

523
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: and the majority of the country is Catholic, and the

524
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: rulers have imposed this religion on everyone from above. It

525
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: almost comes back around and actually my main problem is

526
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: that it's too terroristic, but like it almost flips the

527
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: freedom fighter in a way that I didn't expect because

528
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 1: I was pretty on the like noah whatever, Like he's

529
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: not a revolutionary hero, but like kind of could have been.

530
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, he's interesting. That is interesting. Yeah, everything in context, baby, Yeah.

531
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: And then you know, if you read this from the

532
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 1: context of believing that people should not have divided loyalty

533
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: between Rome and England, then obviously he's even more of

534
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: a villain. Okay. So you have James the first running

535
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: England and Scotland starting in sixteen oh three. His mom

536
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 1: was Mary, Queen of Scots, that Catholic who is Queen

537
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: for nine days. But he wasn't raised by her, and

538
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: he was Protestant. And he also, slightly unrelatedly to today's story,

539
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: sucked so badly. He's one of the worst people. He's

540
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: wildly misogynistic, he's terrified of witches. He does like a

541
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 1: lot of the work to make people afraid of witches

542
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: and like writes books about witchcraft, and we talked about

543
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: this and been in our Witches episode. Kind of the

544
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: thing was that, like, actually the Church didn't really believe

545
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: in witchcraft, so they were like, superstition is fake, all

546
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: magic comes from God, so if someone's doing magic, it

547
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: actually literally can't be demonic. So people are just kind

548
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: of trying to do a dumb thing, so we'll just

549
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: ignore them. Was like the primary way of dealing with

550
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: witches for hundreds of years in Catholic Europe, and King

551
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: James was part of the like, but we really want

552
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: to burn witches though thing. Yeah, and this isn't to

553
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: say that Catholics didn't burn, which is they absolutely did.

554
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: The main argument of that particular episode is that the

555
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: witch burnings were actually a pissing match between the Protestants

556
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: and the Catholics about who could do populism and appeal

557
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: to the masses by letting them take out their grievances

558
00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: on each other with witch burnings.

559
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: Wow, that sounds right to me. I believe that. Yeah immediately, yeah,

560
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: uh huh.

561
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 1: It kind of blew my mind and then I was like,

562
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: oh no, yeah, that just makes sense.

563
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: No, I mean it's both Yeah, a lot of the

564
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 2: most simple things are mind blowing unfortunately.

565
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. King James is also the King James Bible guy,

566
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: the addition that the right wing loves the best because

567
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: it is wildly inaccurate.

568
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. I listened to a podcast about this and it

569
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 2: was really and yeah, it was bizarre.

570
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: It's also the one that Trump is selling is that

571
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: God blessed the USA edition.

572
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. And there was like a little gay stuff

573
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 2: going on, possibly with King James too, which.

574
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: I was to say, he's so gay. Yeah, he's bisexual.

575
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 2: He was like wearing that like medallion with a guy's

576
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 2: face on it all the time or something like that.

577
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, I haven't it was a long time

578
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 2: ago I listened to this, so no, no take it

579
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: as fact. But I'm pretty sure there was a pendant

580
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: with his pretty boyfriend on it.

581
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: I believe it. I did more research about him in

582
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: the Witch's episode, but though the stuff that I relearned,

583
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: he was definitely sleeping with his wife and he was

584
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: extra definitely sleeping with a bunch of guys.

585
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and who knows how that affected the Bible that

586
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: he created.

587
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, weird, but he's super right wing.

588
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very true.

589
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: And he continued the persecution of Catholics, and some Catholics

590
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: decided that they didn't want to be persecuted anymore, and

591
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: they came up with a relatively straightforward idea about how

592
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: to deal with this problem. What if you just got

593
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: like a fuck ton of gunpowder and then you just

594
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 1: like blew up Parliament while King James was there and

595
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: all of his parliament. And the way I wrote it

596
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: originally in this script is and we'll try to do

597
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: it on the fifth of November. That seems like a

598
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: day we can make memorable. But actually the reason they

599
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: did it it was the first day of the parliamentary session.

600
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: And really interestingly, originally the parliament was going to be

601
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: some time in I want to say August, but I

602
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: actually not one hundred percent certain, but it was delayed

603
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: because of like fears of plague. And if it hadn't

604
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: been delayed, they probably would have blown up parliament, wow,

605
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: and killed King James.

606
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: And everything would be different in wha, Everything would be different,

607
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: no idea. You know, we can't even possibly imagine.

608
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: Wow. I know, although I read and actually linked in

609
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: the notes, I actually read a BBC what would have happened. Guess.

610
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: Oh, that's cool, okay.

611
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: And their overall guess is that Protestantism actually would have

612
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: become like absolutely the law of the land and the

613
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: religion of the land and probably even Protestantized Ireland. Interesting, okay,

614
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: but they're like, but here's what we think would have

615
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: happened if it had actually like also worked on a

616
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: like swinging around to a Catholic revolution thing. Sure, right,

617
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: and the answer is everything would be different and nothing'd

618
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: be better, you know, right. But I've read modern Catholic

619
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: moderates arguing that the whole gunpowder plot was a red

620
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: false flag attack, a fabrication phone actually from the state

621
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: guy Cecil, Lord Cecil, the Secretary of State to give

622
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: them an excuse to be shittier to Catholics.

623
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: Like a Reichstag Fire kind of scenario.

624
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, which we've done episodes on the Reichstag Fire was started.

625
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: By it's a complicated one.

626
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was started by a committed leftist who was

627
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: trying to do a thing. It didn't work, nope.

628
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there you go.

629
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love the time as a flat circle. We

630
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: still have these arguments today. Anyone who takes up arms

631
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 1: against oppression, it's actually helping oppression. But also like sometimes, huh.

632
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 2: You got to take every instance in its own context.

633
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what you shouldn't take in context you should

634
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: just accept wholeheartedly without question. Is everything being advertised except

635
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: for the bad stuff that's being advertised. Please don't think

636
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: I'm being serious and then get addicted to online gambling. Anyway,

637
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: here's that's and we're back. So this whole thing Hulk

638
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: gun Powder plot is still politicized to this day, modern

639
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: Catholics arguing it was a false flag attack or on

640
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: the other side, I want to read you the sentence

641
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: from the clearly presenting itself as neutral worldhistory dot org.

642
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 2: Okay, hit me.

643
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: Elizabeth One of England had encouraged the Protestant religion in

644
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: her kingdom, and this policy was continued by her successor,

645
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: James One of England dot dot dot as I cut

646
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: out a bunch of senses, and then it talks about

647
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: a further blow to extreme Catholics hoping to restore their

648
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: faith as the primary religion in England. Okay, And I

649
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: was like, oh, yeah, Elizabeth the first encourage the Protestant religion.

650
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, outlaw in all.

651
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:41,719
Speaker 1: Competitors and then restoring the faith as the primary religion

652
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: of England when what these extremists you want to restore

653
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: the primary religion.

654
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: That's wild.

655
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: It's the majority religion.

656
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it's actually far less extreme than yeah.

657
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: And to be fair, the gunpowder plot people actually pretty extreme.

658
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: Well that yes, yes, and other Catholics who heard about

659
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: it were like, maybe don't do that though, yeah.

660
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: I have a sense this made back fire.

661
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And guy Fowx we'll talk about him in

662
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: a second. And these conspirators, they didn't want freedom of religion.

663
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: No one was arguing for freedom of religion. Well some

664
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: people were actually a lot of moderates were arguing for

665
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: freedom of religion. None of the people killing each other

666
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: were arguing for freedom of religion. They just, like the Protestants,

667
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: wanted to be the only game in town. They were

668
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: probably not good people, but I don't know. At first

669
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: they figured they would dig a tunnel from a rented

670
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: house to underneath Westminster Palace. But then they realized that

671
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: the coal sellers under Westminster Palace were just available for rent.

672
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: Oh great, and so they were like, all right, we're

673
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: going to rent one. And then they just filled it

674
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: with we were a podcast out of here.

675
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, to.

676
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: The podcast at the time, barrels of gunpowder. Actually, that's true.

677
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: The podcast at the time was basically zines and street

678
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: corner Preachers.

679
00:32:58,840 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, but just screaming.

680
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally. They put thirty five barrels of gunpowder

681
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: in their heidie hole that they rented.

682
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 2: That's so wild that you could just rent a place

683
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: that you could put a bunch of gunpowder.

684
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: I have a feeling they stopped doing that after that.

685
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too.

686
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: And then they just like covered it up with like

687
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: scrap wood and we're like, nah, it's just like we're

688
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: throwing scrap wood. I don't know whatever.

689
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 2: Okay, some thing's never changed.

690
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. And they needed someone to light the match. They

691
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: need an experienced bomber. They need someone who could make

692
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: a fuse. They needed Guy Fox, Yes, which is a

693
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: good name. And then if you read an anti Catholic shit,

694
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: his real name is Guido Fox and he's Spanish. Ooh,

695
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: this isn't true.

696
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 2: Okay.

697
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: He was known by Guido Fox when he fought in

698
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: Spain as a Catholic mercenary against the Belgians or something.

699
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: He was a Guido when he was in Spain. But

700
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: the longer you have an open conspiracy with a ton

701
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: of people, and their plan was to blow up all

702
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: of Parliament and then they're going to march north and

703
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: be like we killed the king. Everyone joined us, and

704
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: we're gonna have a big grand revolution. It'll be just

705
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: like we see in the movies, where like you just

706
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: do one action and then everyone's happy. So that part

707
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: wouldn't have worked. And the longer you have this kind

708
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: of thing, the more someone's gonna leak, right, And what

709
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: happened was is that one of the conspirators we don't

710
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: know who it is, but we think we know who

711
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: it is. But again there's a million names, and I'm

712
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: good one of the conspirators sent an anonymous letter to

713
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: one of his family members, or just someone who was

714
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: part of parliament. There's someone who was in parliament who

715
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: is also Catholic. Because there was still I don't entirely

716
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: understand of this work. There's still people who are like

717
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: Catholic who were in government. They just weren't allowed to

718
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: be very active about it, I think. And they wrote

719
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: a note that read quote, they shall receive a terrible

720
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: blow this parliament. And yet they shall not see who

721
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: hurts them.

722
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 2: It's cool.

723
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: And that guy, instead of being like, oh sweet, you're

724
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: gonna have a revolution, I'll just not go to work

725
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: that day, he tipped everyone off and they all investigated,

726
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: and they went down to the basement, and then they

727
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: were like looking in the coal cellars. And they actually

728
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: waited till the night before to go down to the

729
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: basement to look, even though they knew like nine days

730
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: before that.

731
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: Maybe they're just scared of the basement.

732
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: Bloody Mary's down there. And they go in and there's

733
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: guy Fox holding a lantern and he's like, I'm not

734
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 1: Guy Fox. He gives a name, and he's like, I'm

735
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: a servant. And they just see all the wood and

736
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: they keep looking. But then they're like, oh no, that

737
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: guy seems sketchy. So they go back and they find

738
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: all the barrels of gunpowder and they're busted. It's likely

739
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: that this gunpowder wouldn't have gone off anyway because it

740
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: had been sitting too long and it was likely not

741
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: explosive anymore. Okay, but they didn't know that. There's later

742
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,959
Speaker 1: a whole thing about like then they tried to dry

743
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: out the gunpowder by a fire and it blew up

744
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 1: and heard a bunch of them. But like, that story

745
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: feels very pat and the whole thing is framed now

746
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 1: as a celibate of let's blow up a guy because

747
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: he tried to blow up a different guy.

748
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: Does he tried to blow up some other bad guys?

749
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the good guys. The Crown tortured the shit

750
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: out of him for ten days and he spilled the

751
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: beans and other folks were rounded up, though a bunch

752
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: of them died in a last desperate stand sword versus

753
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: gun against the cops. Wow, and a guy with a

754
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: cool name, Thomas Winter, died that way.

755
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 2: Okay, that is a cool name.

756
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 1: Those were the lucky ones, the ones who died sword

757
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 1: against gun. The rest of them were hanged, drawn and quartered.

758
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: And I hate that I have to every now and

759
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: then remind people what this is, just so that people

760
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 1: could understand how terrible the past was, all right, tell

761
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: us in this case, Okay, Like, normally, if you're trying

762
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: to hang someone, if you're a good executioner, their neck breaks,

763
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: and if you're a bad executioner, they suffer and dangle

764
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: and slowly suffocate. Right, so they intentionally are badly hanged

765
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: they hang you until you're almost dead, and then they

766
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: cut your dick off, and then they got you and

767
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,919
Speaker 1: then they behead you and then you're cut into four

768
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: parts after.

769
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 2: That's not what I thought it was.

770
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: It was that you think it was the horses being pulled.

771
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: In from Yeah, I think that's what I thought it was.

772
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they get real creative with killing people in

773
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: the medieval era.

774
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: But then so many medieval torture devices are fake. Do

775
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: you know that. That's so interesting?

776
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: I want to iron about that.

777
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, iron man, it's not real. Yeah, it was like

778
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: made in the eighteen hundreds as like kind of almost sideshow.

779
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: Like yeah, the Victorians were like check out the spooky past,

780
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 1: and you're.

781
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, they did like to do that does make sense,

782
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: but yeah, I do believe yeah, what you're talking about,

783
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: that's one of the real ones.

784
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's it's it's wild because yeah, they make

785
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: up all this fake stuff about the past, but they

786
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: absolutely were unhinged as hell in the past, and like yeah,

787
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,959
Speaker 1: and I'm always trying to figure out which ones are real,

788
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: but like they're so creative. Every single time the medieval

789
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: people killed someone, they were like I came up with

790
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: a new way to do it. Like I read about

791
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: people getting like sewn into sackson thrown into the town

792
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: square from like the steep.

793
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 2: They know, And then you're like, how can I really

794
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: know which of these is true and which is like

795
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: a sensationalized Yeah, it's just you may never know.

796
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, this has been like the biggest thing. I actually

797
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 1: wrote a piece about this, but called like how Metal

798
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 1: was the Past, where it's just like it's so hard

799
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: to know about like the history of occultism and Satan

800
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 1: worship and and all of this stuff, where like some

801
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: of that shit's real. My favorite example of this is

802
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: some of the first episodes we talked about Lady Batore.

803
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: It's usually pronounced Bathory, but that's wrong, And now I'm

804
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: a pedant about it. She's the one I have you

805
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: heard of her? She like bathed in virgin's blood in

806
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: order to stay young. Yeah yeah, yeah, she probably just

807
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: the king owed her money, okay, and so he like

808
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: set her up as like an evil villain in order

809
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,439
Speaker 1: to get her to steal all of her shit.

810
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 2: That sounds much more likely than her bathing and virgin blood.

811
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, But then what's presented unquestionably by all the sources

812
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: that I've seen is that when she was a kid,

813
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: she saw her dad who was in charge, so a

814
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: thief into the stomach of a horse. Dang, And so

815
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: it's like that's an evil metal thing. It is, but

816
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: it's lawful, so no one talks about it.

817
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 2: Interesting.

818
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not a woman, right, yeah, well that's

819
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: a woman getting killed, but that's fine. Women deserve to

820
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 1: die because they steal.

821
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's neither here nor there. Yeah.

822
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: Anyway, drawn and quartered very real, slightly different at different times,

823
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: but real unpleasant. And I think it was just like

824
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 1: they were like, we tried just killing people do bad stuff,

825
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: but that didn't stop anyone, so we just have to

826
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: go even worse. And you're like, we tried like providing

827
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 1: social safety net.

828
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: No, they're like, we're artists of death. Yeah.

829
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like the most evil torturer that we've read about

830
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: this whole thing was one of these priest hunters, and like,

831
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: to be fair, blowing up parliament with like hundreds of

832
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: people in it probably not really an ethical thing.

833
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 2: But no, no, I don't know.

834
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 1: But actually one of the things that happened one of

835
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: the spirits didn't know one of the conspirators went to

836
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 1: that priest who's name I forget, oh unless his father

837
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: Garnett this time, I actually don't remember, went to one

838
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: of the priests and confessed beforehand and was like, hey,

839
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: is it evil in a war if you kill civilians

840
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: as well as who you're trying to kill, And like

841
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: was like genuinely trying to figure out whether it was

842
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: ethical to do this thing.

843
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 2: You know, do we know what the priest said.

844
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 1: I think the priest said, don't do this, yeah, and

845
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: then we'll get to it. And he still dies. But

846
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: so guy FOWX when he's on the scaffold, he actually

847
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: jumps off the scaffold so his neck will break and

848
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 1: he doesn't have to deal with the rest of the shit.

849
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 2: That's smart.

850
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, he's standing there and he's like first time,

851
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: like the meme, but it's not his first time, so

852
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 1: he jumps off, and I mean it is his first

853
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: time getting hanged.

854
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: Probably, I would think, so, Yeah, not all.

855
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: The conspirators were real conspirators. The two Catholic priests was

856
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: kind of mentioning them early. They were wanted because they

857
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: were the priests of the conspirators. The crown figured probably

858
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 1: accurately that the conspirators had revealed their plans in confession,

859
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 1: although I think they did it in that oblique way

860
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: where they were like, hey, is this ethical, Not like yeah,

861
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 1: you want to help us blow up the fucking parliament.

862
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 2: They're like, they're like, so I have this friend.

863
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, Am I the asshole? Oh that's the confessing

864
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: pruf of the.

865
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 2: Modern that is, yeah, you're right.

866
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: And so they were like, all right, well, we're going

867
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: to round up and torture these priests in order to

868
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: find out if they knew about it. And one of

869
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: these priests, Father Garnett, had actually caught wind of this

870
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: plot and told them, no, don't do that. You're going

871
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: to kill a bunch of random people. What the fuck?

872
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: And the two priests managed to stay hidden for a

873
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: solid ten days or so. This is why it gets

874
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: back to Nicholas Owen, because they went to Hindlip Manor

875
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: and they hid in a priest hole. And Father Garnett

876
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: had been working out of hind Lit Mannor for like

877
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: eighteen years or something at that point, maybe twelve, I

878
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: can't remember. I might be confusing with a different number

879
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,959
Speaker 1: of years, but he've been working there for a long time,

880
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: and so they hide in a hole so small that

881
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: they can't straighten their legs, and also hiding in a

882
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: priest hole in Hindlet Manor at that time is none

883
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: other than Saint Nicholas Owen, as well as Ralph Ashley,

884
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: who was either his apprentice or much more likely the

885
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: apprentice to one of the priests. So more than one

886
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: hundred armed men surround the estate on January twentieth, sixteen

887
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: oh six, was a few months after the executions. And

888
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: for ten days these people kept watch and search the place,

889
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: and they couldn't find any priest holes. But after four

890
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: days in a priest hole with nothing but an apple

891
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: to eat, Owen and Ashley come out to find food

892
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 1: and they are captured and in the like hagiography, which

893
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: I can say in a kind of more literal sense

894
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: because he's literally a priest now, they're like they came

895
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: out of it because they wanted to distract the people

896
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: from the real priests who are hiding. I'm like mm

897
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: hm nodding. They came out because they ran out of

898
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: food and water.

899
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 2: No one's poorn broth down the mountain tube for them. Yeah.

900
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. The two confessor priests were captured eight days later,

901
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: including the one who tried to stop it, because yeah,

902
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: there was no one to slip broth down the feeding hole.

903
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: When Owen was arrested, Lord Cecil, the Secretary of State,

904
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: and the one who people believe orchestrated the false flag

905
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: gunpowder attack, which I don't believe. He wrote about arresting

906
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 1: Nicholas Owen quote, great joy was caused all through the

907
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 1: Kingdom by the arrest of Owen, knowing his skill in

908
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: constructing hiding places and the innumbrable number of these dark

909
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: holes which he had schemed for hiding priests throughout the kingdom.

910
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: And he was tortured extensively, and this time he could

911
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: look and say first time to someone because it was

912
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: not his first rodeo. Yeah, And we have the records

913
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: of his confessions because they wrote it all down, and

914
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 1: all he ever said to his torturers was the stuff

915
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: they already knew, like where he'd been caught, okay, which

916
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,479
Speaker 1: is fucking He's a cool guy.

917
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's smart.

918
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: He had almost certainly nothing to do with the gunpowder plot,

919
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: which is interesting. Actually, the gunpowder plot people, as far

920
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: as I can tell, they late later, the Catholic Church didn't,

921
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: I believe, beatify them, like make them holy, but not sainthood.

922
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: But it's like those one step lower, sure, because they

923
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 1: were guilty of actual crimes that are illegal, that aren't

924
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: just heresy or whatever. You know. Anyway, Yeah, there's your

925
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: gratitude for you.

926
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, real nice.

927
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: The torturers knew that Nicholas Owen was ill and that

928
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: he had a hernia, and so they strapped a plate

929
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: of iron to his stomach to keep his organs in

930
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: place while they tortured him. God, okay, he died from

931
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: his torture on March twenty second, sixteen oh six. Or

932
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: the Protestant version of the story is that he eventually

933
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: used a steak knife from dinner to kill himself. But

934
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: I'm not the only one struggling to imagine that one

935
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: of the world's most devout Catholics at this time suicide

936
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: condemned you to hell. The Church has come around on this, Yeah,

937
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: but I don't buy it that this man killed himself,

938
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: and neither of most historians that I read.

939
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it sounds like propaganda.

940
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. The Protestants aren't like, fuck, yeah, it was

941
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: cool when we killed all the priests.

942
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah, I know, but it lets it off

943
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 2: the hook a little bit, like just that small amount.

944
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the priests who were caught as

945
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: well as the apprentice were executed on April seventh, and

946
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: the BBC had to write up about what if the

947
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: gunpowder plot had succeeded and their assumptions that would have

948
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: led to an absolute Protestant majority and effectively ended Catholicism

949
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: in England, Scotland and Ireland. Wow, and just if basically

950
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: like if there hadn't been a little fear of plague

951
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 1: that summer or that same one says, or maybe we

952
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: could have gone the other way. And their main argument

953
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,479
Speaker 1: is that they like marched north from there and been like, hey, everyone,

954
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: we killed the king. It's going to go great. And

955
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 1: everyone had been like, may you just like massacred hundreds

956
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: of people? Like what the fuck?

957
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah?

958
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 1: That actually maps with what I read of history is

959
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: that like people, even when people are like fine with

960
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: like revolutionary violence and war and civil war and all

961
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: that shit, people tend to get turned off by terrorist

962
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: attacks of mass casualty.

963
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 2: It tends to doesn't do what you think it's gonna do.

964
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes no one happy. Nicholas Owen was sainted

965
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy and he's the patron saint of illusionists

966
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: and escape artists and his feast day is the twenty

967
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: second of March. But my real takeaway is that it's

968
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,919
Speaker 1: possible to build places people can't find people, and it's

969
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 1: worth knowing about if you ever live in a repressive government.

970
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: But we don't.

971
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: But just as like a hypothetical, Yeah, wow, what a

972
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: journey that was. Yeah, I mean I'm really like I

973
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 2: really want to know the ins and outs of like

974
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: the very like nitty gritty particulars of each of these

975
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 2: like Heidi holes, right, and I'm sure it's hard, but

976
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: and like ah, and just imagine because you know, I'm

977
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 2: like a I'm an abandoned train tunnel person, like I

978
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,879
Speaker 2: love to go to Yeah I've been doing some shit

979
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: and like yeah, I love that kind of thing. And

980
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 2: like these forgotten things that you have to like hike

981
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: to and you find them and like you have to

982
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 2: you know, go through these bushes and then there's fucking mine.

983
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 2: Like that stuff is amazing. So it's like just imagine

984
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 2: like living somewhere like England where you could live in

985
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: a household enough to like lean on a wall, and

986
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: it's like there's the Heidi Hole. It's incredible. Yeah.

987
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, some of them are like publicly like tourist attractions.

988
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: I'm definitely going to try to go to one of

989
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 2: those next time I go to the UK, because I

990
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: do visit family there, so I'll let you know when

991
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 2: I go to the Heidi Holes.

992
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: And it's funny because it's like this stuff isn't hidden history,

993
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: but it's history that I didn't know about, Like I

994
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: didn't not if you had asked me like two weeks ago,

995
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: like were they just kind of killing the Catholics for

996
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 1: hundreds of years in England? I would have been like,

997
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: probably some of them or something. I don't know. I

998
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: know that they weren't allowed to like practice freely and stuff,

999
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't have known that there were priest hunters.

1000
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: No, it almost sounds fake, you know, it really does

1001
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 2: almost sound fake.

1002
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,479
Speaker 1: But religious persecution is as old as religion, and that's

1003
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: for sure. Probably you shouldn't force people to be different

1004
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: religions than they already are.

1005
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, everybody read your Bible because boy, it's

1006
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: batshit crazy and you can't eat bats but it is

1007
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 2: batshit document. Yeah.

1008
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, if you're going to cherry pick

1009
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: that document, I recommend the parts about be nice to

1010
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: neighbors and foreigners and poor people.

1011
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 2: Hey, to pick out what matters to you, I guess.

1012
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, or just you know, come up with what you

1013
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: believe on your own.

1014
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,479
Speaker 2: I think maybe we just need to toss the whole

1015
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 2: thing out.

1016
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:02,240
Speaker 1: I'm not sure people are pretty attached, but I understand.

1017
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, it's okay. Just figure it out on

1018
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 2: your own.

1019
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, anyway, that's what I got, you guy. Thing

1020
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: you want to.

1021
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 2: Plug the priest hunters in the Heidi hole. That could

1022
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 2: be our band.

1023
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: That would be a very queer band.

1024
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 2: It would be that would be a very queer band.

1025
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 2: I am just the host of American hysteria. That's all

1026
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 2: I am. And that's all I do. So go listen

1027
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: to that and you like weird history, and you like panantic,

1028
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 2: you know, digging into the past, as I know you

1029
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 2: all do because you listen to this show Faria. Yeah,

1030
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 2: you will enjoy American hysteria. We do urban legends, moral panics,

1031
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:45,240
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories, hoaxes, craze is kind of any fantastical thinking

1032
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 2: in American culture from the Puritans to the present, as

1033
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: we say, so check it out. I do try really

1034
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: hard as you do to get things right.

1035
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: I want you to also do not just America, because

1036
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 1: I want your tape on the dance crazes where like

1037
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: people would dance themselves to death in England.

1038
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 2: Margaret, You're so lucky because I did one with Sarah Marshall,

1039
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: a two part episode called Tarantism, which is about the

1040
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 2: spider bite dances, and we get a little into the

1041
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 2: other ones, but Tarrantism is like, for me, the coolest one.

1042
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 2: So we did leave the United States to do a

1043
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 2: little dance craze stuff because I love it. And there's

1044
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 2: like so much misinformation there too, right, it's just like

1045
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 2: anything else.

1046
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,720
Speaker 1: But I assume what I know about it is false

1047
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: because I know the thousand word version. Actually I know

1048
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: the five hundred word version.

1049
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 2: Yep.

1050
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:34,919
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1051
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 2: Well I feel like Sarah Marshall, which I'm sure a

1052
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,720
Speaker 2: lot of I do too. Yeah, yeah, I love her.

1053
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 2: We love her. I have a plug. I want to

1054
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 2: plug James Stout's book that's available for pre order from

1055
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: AKA Press Against the State.

1056
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've even it's good. There's a blurb for me

1057
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,240
Speaker 1: on it. I think it's an important book.

1058
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 2: Ooh, you blurbed.

1059
00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: I don't know if I made it onto the final version,

1060
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: but if you like the stuff we talk about on

1061
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: the show and want to think about how it applies

1062
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: to how politics and statelessness and all of those things

1063
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: interact with like military and possibility and things that are

1064
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 1: happening now and things are happening in the past, like

1065
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: it talks about the Spanish Civil War, which if you've

1066
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:18,399
Speaker 1: made it this far in the show, you probably don't hate. Yep,

1067
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: that's so cool, So everyone go pre order that. Yeah,

1068
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: all right, bye everyone, Thank you guys.

1069
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 2: Bye.

1070
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1071
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

1072
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 1: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1073
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1074
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: your podcasts.