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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me.

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Speaker 4: Trust me. I'm like a swat person. I've never lied

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Speaker 4: to you. I live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to trust Me.

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Speaker 2: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two

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Speaker 2: space magicians who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc

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Speaker 2: and I'm Megan Elizabeth. Today is Part one with our

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Speaker 2: guest Ian Rafalco, a former scientologist from a prominent scientologist

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Speaker 2: family and son of a prominent YouTube health guru.

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Speaker 5: There is overlap.

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Speaker 2: Today we'll explore how his family joined scientology, what it

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Speaker 2: was like growing up in a group where children are

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Speaker 2: treated as adult spirits in small bodies, whether scientology reads

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Speaker 2: little sociopaths, and some of the more detailed.

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Speaker 5: Ins and outs of the system and beliefs.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about Ian's experience as an auditor, how his

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Speaker 1: rebellious nature started getting him into trouble, the culture of snitching,

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Speaker 1: and how he started to deconstruct his upbringing LUs next time.

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Speaker 2: Next week, we will talk more about his YouTube famous father,

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Speaker 2: who also sells vitamins, why he considered taking his own life,

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Speaker 2: and the dramatic video he posted that went viral on TikTok.

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Speaker 5: Before we get into it, Megan and we love Ian.

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Speaker 6: By the way, I'm so glad he's still here with us.

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Speaker 6: He is. So, he's just a tree. He's a good boy,

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Speaker 6: I know.

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Speaker 5: Before we talk to him. Yeah, what is your cult

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Speaker 5: saying about?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, it's something that Ian said that reminded me

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Speaker 1: of this experience. He talked about how in scientology you

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Speaker 1: are connected with a bunch of your past lives, which

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Speaker 1: is a belief that I used to hold very dearly.

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Speaker 1: And I don't I have no clue if we have

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Speaker 1: past lives or future lives or whatever.

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Speaker 6: I don't even pretend to know.

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Speaker 5: But I used to really believe in them.

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Speaker 1: I always thought I was something cool in them, right,

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Speaker 1: And then I went to a psychic with my cat Megan.

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Speaker 5: This was Megan shit, Okay, she was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 5: like the reading was for my cat.

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Speaker 1: But she was like, this is crazy, like you and

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Speaker 1: your cat were in a past life regression, like in

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Speaker 1: a past life together. And I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: what are the odds that's crazy. And then she was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you guys lived on a tugboat in the seventies.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 6: And he was emotionally abusive to me and.

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Speaker 5: That's why he's a cat and not a person.

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Speaker 6: And I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, wait what she she well, it

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Speaker 1: was a he in the past life. He was my husband.

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Speaker 1: Oh my cat is a cat as a girl. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but this is our past.

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Speaker 6: Life, Lola.

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Speaker 5: Okay, sorry, gender does not apply.

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Speaker 6: It does not apply.

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Speaker 1: It was my husband very mean, and like, honestly, it

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Speaker 1: changed how I felt about my cat for a for

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Speaker 1: a week. I was slightly angry. But then you know,

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Speaker 1: it did like put things in perspective because you just

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Speaker 1: you think you're Cleopatra, you think you're like Marilyn Monroe

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Speaker 1: and all of the things that, like, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Teal Swan says that she was like you just kind

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Speaker 1: of think that you were those things too, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: like wait, what, I was a tug boat person.

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Speaker 6: It fucked it fucked me up anyway.

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Speaker 5: I mean, you'd be the cutest tug about person.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I guess, but I was. I mean being abused.

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Speaker 5: That part not great. But you don't remember it, so

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Speaker 5: that's cool, that's cool.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't.

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Speaker 5: I don't remember it at all, which makes sense because it's.

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Speaker 6: What about you? What's your cult? Tails thing?

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Speaker 2: So I know, just like how many people believe they

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Speaker 2: were Marilyn Monroe, you can't all have been Marilyn, and.

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Speaker 6: We can't all have been Marilyn Monroe.

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Speaker 5: Like I get it.

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Speaker 6: I was, but you can't all be I. Yes, I

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Speaker 6: was Cleopatra, Yes that was marily Monroe. Who was I

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Speaker 6: all of the things you want to be.

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Speaker 5: I don't know what I want to be. It could

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Speaker 5: be anything because it depends on the mythology. Am I

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Speaker 5: doing better?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 5: Have I been growing in my life?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 1: That is the hard part about Marilyn Monroe is that

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Speaker 1: she's kind of a troubled person.

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Speaker 4: She was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so listen, none of it means anything, So that's

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Speaker 2: the good news.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's true, unless it unless.

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Speaker 5: It does, unless it does, but we don't know.

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Speaker 6: But it counts and that's what counts.

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Speaker 2: My cultiest thing is a It's just a paragraph that

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Speaker 2: I read in an interview with Pete Holmes, the comedian. Okay,

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Speaker 2: because he talks a lot about religion and he has

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Speaker 2: done a lot of his own deconstruction. I don't like

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Speaker 2: listen to the Holmes podcast, but I was looking up

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Speaker 2: various like specials for something.

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Speaker 5: And I stumbled upon this quote that I thought was interesting.

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Speaker 2: Okay, it's a Deconstruction is the first step, and it's

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Speaker 2: frankly the least interesting step. Most people get stuck and deconstructing.

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Speaker 2: They either get stuck in literalism and just believing what

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Speaker 2: they inherited, which I understand, I did that for a

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Speaker 2: long time, or they get stuck for decades deconstruc and

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Speaker 2: saying like I say in the joke that a talking

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Speaker 2: snake didn't give a naked lady and apple. And they

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Speaker 2: feel that power in that rebellion, and that's an appropriate energy.

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Speaker 2: I think, for a time, give it four years. You

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Speaker 2: can't do it longer than you're in college. Tear it

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Speaker 2: down and burn it down. But at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day, deconstruction is not the most interesting thing. Reconstruction

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Speaker 2: is the only thing that's resurrection. But people are stay

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Speaker 2: with the metaphor they're hanging on the cross of the

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Speaker 2: religion that burned them. No be reborn, drop it, or

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Speaker 2: change it, or adapt it. But you're being called to

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Speaker 2: something far greater than just suffering. That's boring, and you

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Speaker 2: need to get over the part of you that thinks

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Speaker 2: you deserve that. It's almost like we prefer hell and

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Speaker 2: individuality to heaven and what the ego seems like oblivion.

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Speaker 6: I really liked it.

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Speaker 2: I liked it too, and like I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: he's obviously like deconstruction takes as long as it takes.

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Speaker 2: Like people, it's journeys are all very different, and especially

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Speaker 2: when there's a severe amount of trauma, which you know

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Speaker 2: that varies. Some people come from evangelical communities and they

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Speaker 2: have their gripes with it, but it's not maybe as

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Speaker 2: severely traumatic as people get coming out of other groups.

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Speaker 2: So no judgment totally on staying and deconstruction for longer.

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Speaker 2: But I do really like this idea that like that

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Speaker 2: isn't the most interesting part. It's what we build next.

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Speaker 2: It's the it's the reconstructing of your identity and yourself

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Speaker 2: and your community. That's actually the interesting part of leaving

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Speaker 2: the religion.

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Speaker 6: I love that.

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Speaker 1: I will just add that it is a little bit

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Speaker 1: tougher when you were raised in it. Yeah, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: know like that that it hits me sometimes because I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'll never know who I was without this very deep,

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Speaker 1: ingrained generational thing.

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Speaker 6: You know. It's wild.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but which he was?

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Speaker 4: He was?

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Speaker 2: I mean yeah, I again, I don't think it's as

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Speaker 2: extreme as your group was necessary. But that's also like, well,

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Speaker 2: we won't ever know, of course, So how much time

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Speaker 2: do we spend on that question, that wondering because we

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Speaker 2: are who we are now and what can we build

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Speaker 2: from what we have?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: And yeah, I just like that.

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Speaker 6: I think we can build a lot. I mean, just

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Speaker 6: look at Anne shall nice. Let's do it.

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Speaker 5: Welcome Ian Rafalco to trust me. Thanks for being here

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Speaker 5: with us today.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I'm happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: We just are fascinated with your story. Your dad has

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Speaker 1: twelve million YouTube subscribers, number one. Let's start off with

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Speaker 1: that news, so he says. So, he says, so you

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Speaker 1: have a lot of information to share with us today.

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Speaker 1: But how did your family get into scientology.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it's how a lot of people in

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Speaker 4: the nineties joined Scientology. They were already involved in like

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Speaker 4: less traditional medicine, techniques to health and approaches to health.

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Speaker 4: My dad is a chiropractor and he started doing that

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Speaker 4: out in San Diego. I think that's where he met

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Speaker 4: my mom and they. I mean, that whole story is

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Speaker 4: actually really creepy. I did do a video describing they

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Speaker 4: made a video together. Talking about how they got together is.

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Speaker 5: Very creepy, creepy, very young.

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Speaker 4: She was his client. She was his patient, okay, and

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Speaker 4: he kind of like apparently the day she broke up

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Speaker 4: with her ex, he was like pursuing her and like

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Speaker 4: flirting with her while she was on his table.

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Speaker 3: And very weird.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Anyway, I think my mom took a course or

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Speaker 4: she was pitched by some Scientology church out there to

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Speaker 4: take some classes that would help her improve X, Y

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Speaker 4: and Z, and then she had to convince my dad

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Speaker 4: basically to go, and they got more and more involved,

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Speaker 4: and then they left San Diego went to Shreveport, Louisiana,

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Speaker 4: which is where I was born. They got more involved.

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Speaker 4: They went to the Baton Rouge Mission just as smaller

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Speaker 4: org as they're called the buildings of Scientology buildings, and

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Speaker 4: my dad was investigated in Streeport by the FBI for fraud,

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Speaker 4: like insurance insurance fraud. He had one of those integrated

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Speaker 4: medicine clinics, so lots of weird tests that he's not

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Speaker 4: totally legally allowed to say will help, right, So his

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Speaker 4: face was in the newspapers.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: We packed up and we left to northern Virginia around

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Speaker 4: the DC area, and that's sort of where they started

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Speaker 4: their more official Scientology journey, you could say. And yeah,

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Speaker 4: some of my earliest memories are just wandering around the

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Speaker 4: church in d C. The Organ DC known as at

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Speaker 4: the time as the Fraser Mansion because it was in

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Speaker 4: this big brick building with all these very old and

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Speaker 4: historic and then now they moved i think to sixteenth

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Speaker 4: and p Why.

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Speaker 1: These scientology buildings so cool, they're all so beautiful.

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Speaker 6: It's so fucking annoying.

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Speaker 4: It's the intent in the policy. Everything is based on policy.

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Speaker 4: Nothing in scientology happens on its own. There's always some

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Speaker 4: sort of written description of why you're doing something, or

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Speaker 4: someone ordering you to do something based on their interpretation

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Speaker 4: of the policies.

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Speaker 3: So there's a policy.

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Speaker 4: Regarding the concept of ideal orgs or ideal organizations which

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Speaker 4: are are supposed to be these shining examples of scientology

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Speaker 4: being able to be delivered to.

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Speaker 3: The masses or whatever.

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Speaker 4: And part of that is it has to be in

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Speaker 4: a very easily accessible location.

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Speaker 3: It has to have a historic building.

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Speaker 4: You have to like put a lot of work to

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Speaker 4: sort of make it as esthetic as possible. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 4: the buildings are beautiful just to be beautiful basically attract Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Mormon temples are like that too, Like they're supposed to

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Speaker 2: be this like shining.

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Speaker 1: Cordless nice temples, like the Celebrity Center. I almost have

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Speaker 1: to like mace myself to keep myself away from it.

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Speaker 4: I know, you say this, it feels like a hotel.

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Speaker 6: It feels a beautiful hotel.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it reminds me of how MLMs have the

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Speaker 2: ladies drive pink cars and like by or like buy

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Speaker 2: big mansions. You know, it's like you're supposed to make

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Speaker 2: people see it and be like ooh.

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Speaker 5: What's that?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 4: So they went to DC and they we're doing courses.

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Speaker 4: My dad took him a while to get into it.

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Speaker 2: How old were you when you guys moved? Like, do

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Speaker 2: you have memory as of this were okay, got it.

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Speaker 4: I've seen pictures of me in Shreeport. No memory whatsoever.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 4: I think my mom went to DC first and then

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Speaker 4: my dad like wrapped up what he was doing and

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Speaker 4: then we moved out together. But there was always a

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Speaker 4: lot of like fighting and like prioritization of like my

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Speaker 4: mom thinks scientology should come first, and my dad thinks

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Speaker 4: that money should come first. So you have these like

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Speaker 4: two very manic and unstable kind of viewpoints that are

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Speaker 4: kind of crossing over into the kids.

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Speaker 3: And so my brother, very early on.

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Speaker 4: I think he turned like twelve or thirteen, decided to

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Speaker 4: join staff in DC and that has been like basically

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Speaker 4: his whole life up until like two years ago. So

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Speaker 4: he was like the golden child.

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Speaker 3: Basically.

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Speaker 4: Essentially, there are a lot of posts in a scientology organization,

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Speaker 4: and there's a whole board called the Borg Board and

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Speaker 4: has like a tiered hierarchy of positions. It's supposed to

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Speaker 4: be more organized, but the way it's set out, when

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Speaker 4: all of these positions are filled, it's almost impossible to

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Speaker 4: get things done because there's so many people you have

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Speaker 4: to hand papers too, and it was rarely ever actually

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Speaker 4: what they call it a full complement of staff members.

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Speaker 4: But it looks a lot more organized than it is.

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Speaker 4: I will say that.

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Speaker 5: It's like this really complicated bureaucracy. Is there a reason why?

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Speaker 5: Is that on purpose? Using?

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Speaker 4: I think the bureaucracy part of it, because people are like,

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Speaker 4: what do you do in SCIO and it is a

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Speaker 4: lot of boring stuff, writing reports, marketing statistics, doing a

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Speaker 4: course silently in a course.

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Speaker 3: Room or sounds like an Yeah, I mean, it depends

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Speaker 3: on what you're used to.

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Speaker 4: But it's also there's auditing, which is the scientology counseling

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Speaker 4: that a lot of people are very curious about.

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Speaker 3: You know, what's happening in there.

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Speaker 4: You're discouraged, even as a person receiving auditing, from talking

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Speaker 4: about what happens in those sessions, So you don't really

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Speaker 4: know what's going on. But there's a lot of paperwork

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Speaker 4: and people referring back to policies and basically making a

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Speaker 4: lot of work for themselves.

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Speaker 6: It seems like by design to just have everybody going

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Speaker 6: in circles.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Basically I cannot.

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Speaker 2: Remember now the name of the other guest we had on,

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Speaker 2: but al Ron Hubbard's Jenna, Yes, sorry, Jenna Miscavige Thank.

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Speaker 4: You, David, Misscavige's niece. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I feel like she kind of addressed that and was saying,

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Speaker 2: like her theory was that like it would make everything

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Speaker 2: just like really opaque because no one kind of really

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Speaker 2: knew who they were supposed to be talking to, and

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Speaker 2: everything was kind of kept separate and it was purposely confusing.

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Speaker 5: I feel like she said she was talking about that, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, and that's true. It's never really advertised like that.

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Speaker 4: Like the view of scientology that they want you to

301
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Speaker 4: accept is that it is some new way of organizing

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Speaker 4: your life and behaving that it.

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Speaker 3: Sort of inspires.

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Speaker 4: They would describe basically, it'll get your karma, right, they

305
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Speaker 4: don't use that word, but I'm just sort of avoiding

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Speaker 4: a lot of technical terms. Yeah, it would basically be

307
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Speaker 4: like this is actually like your life sucks. So and

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Speaker 4: we know that because you did this IQ test that

309
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Speaker 4: we made up. And what you don't know is that

310
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Speaker 4: there's actually a more workable, the most workable technology that

311
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Speaker 4: exists in out there mankind that you haven't heard of

312
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Speaker 4: because it's being suppressed by the industry of psychiatry. And

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Speaker 4: what you should do is do this course and see

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Speaker 4: if it helps you just do this one course and

315
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Speaker 4: see if it helps. You could don't worry about yeah,

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00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:34,640
Speaker 4: don't worry about the rest of stuff. So you pay money,

317
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Speaker 4: and then you sit down and it's like, ah, to

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Speaker 4: organize your money. Like the first introductory courses are all

319
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Speaker 4: just very basic, like small, almost unrelated to the majority

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Speaker 4: of scientology, but they put little nuggets in there. It's

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Speaker 4: essentially meant to like validate l Ron Hubbard in a

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Speaker 4: way like oh, he says, to save my money, I

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Speaker 4: should not spend it on frivolous things brilliantly guys, or

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Speaker 4: I shouldn't trust people who have don't have my best

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Speaker 4: interest at heart.

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Speaker 5: Well, guy, I've never heard of such a thing.

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Speaker 6: Was there any e meter going on?

328
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Speaker 1: Because people have tried to give me the E meter

329
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Speaker 1: just randomly on the side of the road.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, there's It's essentially there's a sort of a

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Speaker 4: loaded topic because the E meter is used for so

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Speaker 4: many things. But essentially what it's designed to do is

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Speaker 4: from the scientology perspective. Within i'd say scientology for those

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Speaker 4: who are listening who aren't really sure why, there's where

335
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Speaker 4: the science comes in. It's more so there isn't really

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Speaker 4: any science involved. It's think of it like the founder

337
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 4: made up his own science with his own rules to

338
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Speaker 4: kind of have a little playground do whatever you want it,

339
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Speaker 4: and like say that this is like part of the

340
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Speaker 4: tech right with.

341
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Speaker 2: Drawing some inspiration from a pre existing belief systems, so

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Speaker 2: it feels real all over, like some things ring true,

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Speaker 2: and yeah they.

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Speaker 4: Take from like I mean a lot of things they

345
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Speaker 4: are from, like corporate America practices and also other religions

346
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,040
Speaker 4: to sound spiritual, but when you really get into it,

347
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Speaker 4: it's more so like the only way to succeed in

348
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Speaker 4: life is to not just devote yourself to scientology. But

349
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Speaker 4: like you aren't doing anything good if you are not

350
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Speaker 4: flowing power to scientology. And is that a tower that's

351
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Speaker 4: used Flowing is kind of what it sounds like you're

352
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Speaker 4: channeling either physically or mentally or emotionally whatever. But power

353
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Speaker 4: is more than often described as money and they don't

354
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Speaker 4: say that on the outset, But like most of your

355
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:44,960
Speaker 4: time in scientology is finding money or making it so

356
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Speaker 4: that you can charge someone. Again, like when I was

357
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Speaker 4: an auditor, Oh you were an auditor, I was, Yeah,

358
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Speaker 4: I was actually trained at the Flag Service Organization. The

359
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Speaker 4: really big building in clear Water seven days a week,

360
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Speaker 4: fourteen hour days, eleven months.

361
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Speaker 3: When you're you know, of that, I was like I

362
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 3: was twenty one, so but it was it was a

363
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Speaker 3: shift and pace.

364
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Speaker 4: I mean, it feels a lot more busy because when

365
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,359
Speaker 4: you're a flag, there's like people from all over the

366
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Speaker 4: you know the world. So even if there's only like

367
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,640
Speaker 4: three hundred people there, it feels full. You know, there's

368
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,400
Speaker 4: a lot of things going on and you just kind

369
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 4: of have to focus on what you're supposed to do.

370
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,800
Speaker 4: A lot of things are on like checklists or check

371
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,800
Speaker 4: sheets or in order to do anything, you have to

372
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Speaker 4: like walk around and physically talk to a person and

373
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Speaker 4: hand them your thing, and like on the meet the

374
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Speaker 4: uh the bookstore officer to purchase your next course and

375
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,280
Speaker 4: then you you know, you go to them. There's a

376
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,480
Speaker 4: lot of like interactions you have, so it feels like

377
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,640
Speaker 4: everyone's very busy, and like emails aren't aren't a thing

378
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,080
Speaker 4: you have to send something Telexes, which are like private emails,

379
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 4: a lot of crazy.

380
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Speaker 3: What are your cuilty stuff on alex a telex?

381
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Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, it's like upside down.

382
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Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I mean most of the technology is very archaic.

383
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Speaker 4: The finance system went down constantly because it's on I

384
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,760
Speaker 4: don't know how familiar you are with computers, but their

385
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,640
Speaker 4: whole finance system is run on DOS.

386
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Speaker 5: No, it's not it.

387
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, And up until recently they just got rid of

388
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Speaker 4: those printers. Think like and it like comes out on

389
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Speaker 4: that like perforated.

390
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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's hilarious. Wow, cutting edge technology, well.

391
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Speaker 4: The most workable and most advanced technology.

392
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Speaker 1: And one of the things that struck me about your

393
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Speaker 1: story was that it seemed like in the beginning of

394
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,240
Speaker 1: your journey it wasn't really because like when we think

395
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,760
Speaker 1: of scientology, we think of thetans and aliens and all

396
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,560
Speaker 1: of those things, and it sounds like you were kind

397
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,600
Speaker 1: of shielded from that or no, tell.

398
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Speaker 6: Us what you believed, Yeah, what did you believe?

399
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Speaker 4: So I was My mother was very zealous with regard

400
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,480
Speaker 4: to scientilogy from as early as I could remember, and

401
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,760
Speaker 4: she has a sort of mindset where one could call

402
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:12,639
Speaker 4: it narcissism, where she was always kind of attempting to

403
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,359
Speaker 4: impart knowledge. I remember very clearly she was trying to

404
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 4: like teach me the way the world is, or like

405
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,959
Speaker 4: in very degrading and like very look down on you.

406
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:22,679
Speaker 3: Kind of ways.

407
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,960
Speaker 4: Like in scientology, children are treated not as children but

408
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,679
Speaker 4: as like adult spirits in small bodies, so you don't

409
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 4: treat a child like a kid. So there was a

410
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,880
Speaker 4: lot of like weird pseudo productive life lessons that are

411
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,800
Speaker 4: like based on well, life is tough out there. But

412
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 4: it was all just like kind of framed around this,

413
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Speaker 4: you know, because you're you as a thetan like a

414
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 4: spiritual being. It's sort of like saying soul, but they

415
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 4: have their own whole mechanical description of it.

416
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 3: You as a thetan are going to get.

417
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,119
Speaker 4: Worse and are are bad because you aren't reaching for

418
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,920
Speaker 4: scientology more or you aren't you know, once you get

419
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 4: up the bridge, which is what they call advancing in scientology,

420
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,879
Speaker 4: you will see how bad and wrong you were for

421
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 4: not doing it. And so like growing up, she did

422
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 4: hammer in that, like you know, if I was ever depressed,

423
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 4: it was like, oh, well that's just you what they'd

424
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,600
Speaker 4: call dramatizing your past lives. So yeah, you see it.

425
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,440
Speaker 4: This is getting a little loaded already. But in scientology,

426
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 4: you are a reincarnation is a thing like you you

427
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 4: die and then you as a thetan get out and

428
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,640
Speaker 4: you go pick another body blah blah blah. But this

429
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 4: kind of goes back to a nebulous time range. So

430
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 4: any problem you have, anything that you complain about in

431
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 4: your current life, or any anxieties that you feel, any depression,

432
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:49,959
Speaker 4: these are all linked to past life trauma that accumulates.

433
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 4: And if you if I, let's say, as a child,

434
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,440
Speaker 4: am bored out of my mind and just walking around,

435
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 4: you know, a literal child complaining about something, well, that

436
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,640
Speaker 4: to me dramatizing bringing into the present a past life

437
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 4: issue that I'm unaware of because I don't have enough scientology.

438
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 4: It's very weird.

439
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 2: No, any any unpleasant sensation or feeling that any normal

440
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 2: human being would have is basically a result of you're

441
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 2: you not doing enough work to fix it right.

442
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 4: Yes, And layered on top of that is the sort

443
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,919
Speaker 4: of deeper conceptual idea which is present in a lot

444
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 4: of cults, that you are the reason that those bad

445
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 4: things happen to you in the first place. So you

446
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 4: get to the concept of the overt withhold phenomena, where

447
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 4: the overt action is like a transgression against an agreed

448
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 4: upon code of conduct. And then or I said, the

449
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 4: overt motivator sequence. So the overt is the bad action.

450
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 4: The motivator is what brought.

451
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 3: The action on.

452
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 4: So like like every bad thing that happened to you

453
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 4: is because you did something bad which invited bad things

454
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 4: to happen to you, right, sort of like karma, but

455
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 4: they layer it in all these like different words and surbages.

456
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is obviously an incredibly unhealthy way of

457
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 2: seeing the world for any human being, but especially a child.

458
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,360
Speaker 2: And I'm curious about your experience of all of these

459
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 2: things that were being taught to you growing up and

460
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 2: like living this lifestyle, Like were you like gung ho

461
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,919
Speaker 2: on it, like this is my church, I believe in this,

462
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: or you're like Megan, where you're like I want to

463
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 2: get the fuck out of here.

464
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,120
Speaker 4: The latter, I mean, well it was. It was hard

465
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 4: because like I didn't I wasn't really permitted to consider

466
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,120
Speaker 4: a life outside of scientology. So what I was going

467
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 4: through was more like, uh, a lot of loneliness, a

468
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 4: lot of personal blame and personal shame and everything's layered

469
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 4: and like doing things wrong. So I'm just like sitting there,

470
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 4: you know, wondering why everyone's treating me like shit and

471
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 4: wondering what I did. And oh, well, it's something I

472
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 4: did in the past life that I can't atone for right.

473
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 3: Now, or I got to figure that out.

474
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 4: And like, and my parents really didn't get to this

475
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 4: to the financial status they are now until I had

476
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,199
Speaker 4: already moved out, like so they could they were they

477
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 4: couldn't afford scientology when I was a child, so like

478
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 4: it was like, well, one day you'll be better, I guess,

479
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 4: but it's not any time in the foreseeable future because

480
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 4: you got to pay for your own thing.

481
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: Are there alternative ways to advance or is it just

482
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 2: you gotta pay wow half to go.

483
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 4: Because if you if you don't pay for it, you're

484
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 4: gonna you're not gonna appreciate it.

485
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: A lighting scale of that's not.

486
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 1: Too He's Onny Robins charges like thousands of dollars for

487
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: his seminars, and he's like, if it's not really expensive,

488
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't hurt. Yet you don't you don't, uh, you

489
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: don't appreciate it. Was theirs lighting scale though, Like was

490
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 1: there options for people with less money?

491
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 5: Can you do service instead?

492
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I mean you could do courses.

493
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 4: The courses were so incomprehensible sometimes it took people months

494
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 4: times years to do like a course that was estimated

495
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 4: at like a completion time of two weeks, so but

496
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 4: it was just so convoluted you really, like I witnessed

497
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 4: in hindsight people struggling to like incorporate this like nonsensical

498
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 4: yet so detailed description of life and like like sit

499
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 4: there for hours a day every day, like trying to

500
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 4: get through this one page. I once saw a guy

501
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,239
Speaker 4: who was doing a course about clearing words. Looking up

502
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 4: were the definitions of words, which is like a huge

503
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 4: thing in scientology, and in order for him to process this,

504
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 4: he wrote he was writing his own dictionary in the

505
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 4: course room on his laptop.

506
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 6: Oh my gosh wow.

507
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 4: Which is like not only not really what you're supposed

508
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 4: to be doing, but just such a bizarre reaction. I

509
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 4: had no idea how to like process this at the time.

510
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 4: But you're just watching people like struggle. So there's that

511
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 4: as a as a as a simple option. Or you

512
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 4: can also if you are feeling sick, because sickness is

513
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 4: not attached to medicine. Sickness is a because you've invited

514
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 4: you know, a bad energy by you know, sort of

515
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 4: like bad karma, like you hang around bad people and

516
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 4: that badness like makes you sick because you're if you're

517
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 4: around people who don't agree with scientology, you can very easily,

518
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 4: uh you know, get sick or get cancer, or you know,

519
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 4: you'll start messing up in your life. You'll have problems,

520
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 4: something called a potential trouble source or PTS potential trouble.

521
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 4: So in scientology, the concept of the word critical and

522
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 4: the definition of the word critical is connected to the problem,

523
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 4: the real problem in this universe, which is suppression. And

524
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 4: the concept of suppression is very common in cults, and

525
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 4: they have different words for it, but it's basically the

526
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 4: bad ones. Yeah, who are like them?

527
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 3: And they who are you?

528
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 4: Usually described as like psychiatrists or people who associate with

529
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 4: psychiatrists or some ancient psychiatry cabal that's been oppressing civilizations across.

530
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 3: The universe invader forces.

531
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: Literally we all know how powerful psychiatrists are, right.

532
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 4: Just the most you know, devious people, and they use

533
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 4: examples of psychiatric misuse as they cherry pick, well, look

534
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 4: at this bad thing this guy did.

535
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 3: See that's all psychiatry is. And it's like, well, that's.

536
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 5: That's one example. That's an anecdotal example of one person knowing.

537
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 4: Your critical thinking skills on the surface there, but suppression

538
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 4: is the big bad. Suppression causes mistakes, it causes sickness,

539
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 4: it causes cancer. Suppression is described in the one of

540
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 4: the courses of the PTSSP course as any person or

541
00:26:52,920 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 4: group who is by design intent on interfering, interrupting, impeding, damaging,

542
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 4: harming scientology or scientologists. So it's very specifically on the surface,

543
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 4: it's like people who are mean to you, people who

544
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 4: demean you, like in the beginning, and then later you

545
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 4: read and you're like, oh, no, they mean like scientology.

546
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 4: So it is any enemy or critic of scientology is

547
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 4: a suppressive person.

548
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 2: When you were a kid, were you interacting with non

549
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 2: scientologists very often?

550
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 3: Not often?

551
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 4: I mean I had people who understood my situation, and

552
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 4: you know, I just wanted friends, so I didn't really

553
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 4: talk to them. Knew. I knew from a young age

554
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 4: that scientology was like something people thought were bad. But

555
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 4: you're kind of gaslt to believe that this is because

556
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 4: they don't know what you know, and I didn't. I

557
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 4: gaess on myself. I was like, I don't even know.

558
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 4: That's why I'm so fucking depressed all the time. And

559
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 4: you know, so Yeah, I had a couple friends. Some

560
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 4: of my closest friends are like today are people that

561
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 4: I grew up with who.

562
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 3: Didn't who aren't scientologists.

563
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 4: I mean, I've lost I'd say ninety nine percent of

564
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 4: the people that I've known through my leaving of scientology.

565
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 4: But the people who stay are like incredible people. I

566
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 4: wouldn't trade him for the world.

567
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: So I'm curious about when you kind of started to think, hmm,

568
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: maybe I should leave this life.

569
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had this is towards the end of my training,

570
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 4: or I guess after my training.

571
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 3: I went.

572
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 4: I was on staff at in Atlanta because I went

573
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 4: there to get into the filmmaking scene. I want to

574
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 4: be a writer, director, actor, whatever I wanted to do.

575
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 4: And I was going to move down there with a

576
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 4: friend of mine who we do a lot of projects together,

577
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 4: and that's kind of been like our goal. So at

578
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 4: the time I moved there, I was twenty when I

579
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 4: moved there, and I was like, all right, Joseph, what's

580
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 4: his name is. I was like, Joseph, you're gonna come,

581
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 4: We're going to live together, We're going to do this,

582
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 4: and then I'm going to do scientology courses on the

583
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 4: side that was sort of my you know, in my

584
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 4: peripheral and then this guy came up and he sort

585
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 4: of recruited me into LIED a bunch and said a

586
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 4: lot of just untrue things about the pay the pay,

587
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 4: and like who I would help and what I'd be doing.

588
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 4: So I got wrapped up into staff very early, and

589
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 4: then I went off to training, and ironically, while I

590
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 4: was at training, my friend did move down had a

591
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 4: terrible experience with people that I'd connected him with in scientology,

592
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 4: and then he moved back home to Alabama, so I

593
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 4: didn't even get to see him while he was there,

594
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 4: so that sucked. So already my Atlantic experience was bad.

595
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 4: But after my training, I went back really depressed after

596
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 4: that because there was really nothing going on. I really

597
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 4: wasn't I felt like I wasn't being utilized. I felt

598
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 4: like I just had this underlying depression.

599
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 3: Every day. I started like drinking.

600
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,719
Speaker 4: All the time when I got home because these were

601
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 4: like I started at like nine am, and I would

602
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 4: get home usually around like eight or nine pm, so exhausted,

603
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 4: you know, coping terribly. And I was like, hey, I

604
00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 4: want to go do this big, super important auditing process

605
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 4: at FLAG that this big sort of like the mecha

606
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 4: of scientology at the time. I mean, in general, it's

607
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 4: not still up there, it's still still a egg stant but.

608
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 3: Uh, it took took a while. I went there. I

609
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: was I started on this thing.

610
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 4: I thought everything was great, and then it took a

611
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 4: really bad turn. And I basically described to someone that

612
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 4: the person auditing me at the time that I didn't

613
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,479
Speaker 4: want to be on staff my entire life. And saying that,

614
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 4: I said, well, i'll finish my contract. I just you know,

615
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 4: I feel like I want to be a writer. I

616
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,479
Speaker 4: feel like I can I can do this thing. And uh,

617
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 4: she circled that in read, which in scientology means bad things,

618
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 4: especially with an audit. You circle things in red when

619
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 4: you want the person someone called the case supervisor, the

620
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 4: person above the auditor who's like giving the instructions, go in,

621
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 4: run them on this, write this down, find out this,

622
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 4: and then come back and I'll look at it and

623
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 4: make sure everything was done correctly, correctly. And so that

624
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 4: started a five month situation where I was not allowed

625
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 4: to leave.

626
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 3: I was not allowed to be idle. So I was

627
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 3: like doing.

628
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 4: Labor basically for all these different all the you know,

629
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 4: the scientology buildings in clear Water, the Youth for Human Rights,

630
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 4: the NARCAN on that they're these they're called the fourth

631
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 4: Dynamic campaigns basically campaigns to help the world through scientology,

632
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 4: but they're basically front groups to apply validation or be like, see,

633
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 4: we're doing good things, we care about children getting off drugs,

634
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 4: and but they're all very generic, very like surface of that.

635
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 4: They don't actually go out of their way to help

636
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 4: anyone without you know, they like hand out booklets and

637
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 4: they think that's going to just solve everything. Just reading

638
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,239
Speaker 4: the word is going to magically cure you. So I

639
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,239
Speaker 4: was doing labor for them for a few months. I

640
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 4: was just being used to help people in the course rooms.

641
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: Endlessly.

642
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 4: This is all described to me as potential amends or

643
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,479
Speaker 4: any decisions that might get made on my behalf or

644
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 4: being in doubt of wanting to be on staff.

645
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: So why is somebody like Tom Cruise allowed to be

646
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: a movie star and you can't have another crew.

647
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: Wouldn't it make sense for you to go on and

648
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: be successful in Hollywood yourself?

649
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, if I wasn't on staff, or if I was

650
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 4: maybe already famous, or if I was already had that

651
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 4: sort of income, like the promises to the money that

652
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 4: they're going to receive, or the like how much am

653
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 4: I helping scientology doing my own thing, you know, or

654
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,719
Speaker 4: like they expect that runway to be longer than it

655
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 4: is or whatever.

656
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 3: I didn't. I mean even at the time, I had

657
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 3: no real idea who to talk to, sort of someone who.

658
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 4: Life I've been trying to I've had a lot of agency,

659
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 4: I guess where other people didn't.

660
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: Like when I was.

661
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 4: Seventeen, I was writing this show with my friend and

662
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 4: I needed to know what how the prop departments work

663
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 4: and how like how to do that? Like how does

664
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 4: that work? So I just called someone. I googled, you know,

665
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 4: who's a great you know, prop designer, and I found

666
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 4: their number and I just called and it ended up

667
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 4: being like the woman who was in charge.

668
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 3: Of the props for the American Horror Story Show.

669
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 4: And she was like, she had a really we really

670
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 4: love the conversation.

671
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 3: She was just like, we are you to my number?

672
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I was just on like the website

673
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: and They're like, oh, okay, well what do you want

674
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 3: to know?

675
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 4: And I was like, so I asked a lot of

676
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 4: questions and I'm also and being on the on the

677
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 4: spectrum for autism. I sort of have a lot of

678
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 4: I don't know, spontaneous, impulsive sort of.

679
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 3: Ideas for things, and so that was sort of I

680
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 3: was kind.

681
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 4: Of the annoying child because in scientology you just do

682
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 4: what you're what's in the books. You don't really ask

683
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 4: a lot of questions, and so I had a lot

684
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 4: of questions that challenged the you know, just read it

685
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 4: and shut up kind of motive. So I was in

686
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 4: my head I thought I was really dumb because everyone

687
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 4: was just telling me to shut up all the time.

688
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 4: So even later when I was like, oh, I want

689
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 4: to be a writer, I was like, this is just

690
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 4: something that makes that I enjoy doing.

691
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 3: But it didn't.

692
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 4: They didn't see it like that. And also I wasn't

693
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 4: already famous. Tom Cruise makes hundreds of millions of dollars.

694
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 4: He won't join a movie unless he, as an actor,

695
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 4: is getting paid twenty million on top of his producer credit.

696
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 4: So I mean, that's the that's the long answer. The

697
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,720
Speaker 4: short answer is just money. If you have enough money.

698
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 4: Like my dad stopped being forced to attend events or

699
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 4: forced or like pressured to do anything once he started

700
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 4: making tens of millions of dollars. And uh, it's like

701
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 4: either and fundraising.

702
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,959
Speaker 2: Either do labor twenty four to seven basically or bring

703
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: in a lot of money, and it seems like there's

704
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: not a lot in between.

705
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, is there a middle class in scientology?

706
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 3: Uh?

707
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that'd be like the people on staff

708
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 4: at works like you're not. It's it's like you're at

709
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 4: least signed up right, and being a public someone who

710
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 4: just does courses or auditing pays for it is sort

711
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 4: of seen as like it's going to be the bulk

712
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 4: of the people, but they're not going to care as

713
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 4: much as someone on staff, or they're not going to

714
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 4: be as important.

715
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,919
Speaker 3: As you know, the people in the sea org or

716
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 3: you know, right, I.

717
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 5: Guess the intensive.

718
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to back up a little bit

719
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: because I'm curious about your relationship with your parents throughout

720
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: this whole time. You know, so, because we are going

721
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: to get into things with your dad.

722
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 5: So were you close to him? Did you spend much

723
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 5: time together growing up?

724
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 3: No?

725
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 4: No, My my dad is very one trek mind. I

726
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 4: I'd consider he's also undiagnosed because he's just.

727
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 3: Direct and how self serving he is.

728
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 4: I think and I don't think he really learned the

729
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 4: nuance there of empathy.

730
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 3: He doesn't really have a lot of friends.

731
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 4: He has people who benefit him that he keeps close

732
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 4: to him, or people who validate him. Now especially, he's

733
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 4: definitely has like a bubble and I think but like

734
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 4: through my who childhood, it was just like he's working,

735
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,720
Speaker 4: so I'm not going to bother him and my mom.

736
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 3: I mean, that's a more nebulous thing. You know.

737
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 4: A lot of love bombing and patronizing and like the

738
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 4: cycle of abuse was very present, but it was it

739
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 4: was sort of nuanced and layered, and it was like

740
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 4: a long time before I was like I don't want

741
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 4: to talk to these people at all. I mean, when

742
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 4: I was like nine years old, I was like sitting

743
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 4: on my bed, like begging whatever universal power for a

744
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 4: sign that I was adopted or that I was like

745
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 4: transplanted there and like it would make sense after, you know,

746
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 4: my real family came to It's very like depressing stuff,

747
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 4: but at the same time, it was like I was

748
00:36:58,160 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 4: a child, you know, I was trying to make sense

749
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 4: of the whole situation I was.

750
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:02,959
Speaker 3: I was I had been.

751
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 4: Convinced at the time that there were universal powers I

752
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 4: mean scientology equates too in its sort of mechanistic operation

753
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 4: to space magic, whether they use those terms or not.

754
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 4: So I had this idea that there's some distant, you know,

755
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 4: power that's like gonna that that from my perspective, I

756
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 4: need to appeal to by doing scientology or or whatever.

757
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 4: So it just skewed my perceptions quite a lot. So

758
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 4: I was I was never close to them, and it

759
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 4: was weird. I actually didn't answer your previous question. I

760
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 4: had doubts when my after that whole five month situation

761
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 4: and I left staff, and I was like, I'm taking

762
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 4: a break from this, like this is step one.

763
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 3: And then I was married at the time.

764
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 4: I married this girl I trained with and we had

765
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 4: somece divorced because we had differences of opinion on what

766
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 4: was a private conversation and what should be reported to

767
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 4: Scientology and my parents. And she's just huge trust issues

768
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 4: there and she's been as she was. She's also a

769
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 4: second generation of scientologist, so she kind of doesn't have

770
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 4: the she didn't have the cognitive ability to kind of

771
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 4: put two and two together, like, oh, he doesn't trust

772
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 4: me because I'm I only want him to like get

773
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 4: fixed through scientology. And so we can go back to

774
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 4: whatever was happening, like a lot of weird stuff there.

775
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 4: But she would tell me these things that she thought

776
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 4: were kind of funny, like, oh, you know, I was

777
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 4: watching this Scientology is all these events. She was like,

778
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 4: I was watching this event and they were talking about

779
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 4: the statistics of Perth, which is where she's from, and

780
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 4: they lied about the statistics. You know, I'm there all

781
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 4: the time and in the court rooms aren't ful. And

782
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 4: it kind of lingered in my head, and the sort

783
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 4: of the sort of started to grow, and I started

784
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 4: to hear more things have seen, like an interview with

785
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 4: Elyone Hubbard that.

786
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: Scientology said didn't exist.

787
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 4: And I'm like, okay, so they're actively lying to me

788
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 4: and not just me everyone.

789
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: That was one of my that was gonna be my

790
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: next question, Like you mentioned somewhere a South Park episode

791
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: kind of fucking with you a bit.

792
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 6: Can you talk about that?

793
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 3: It was more embarrassing because I.

794
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 4: Have liked to assume, especially when I was younger, just

795
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 4: for sanity's sake, I think that I could make sense

796
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 4: of it, and I was putting the pieces together, like

797
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 4: even though it doesn't make sense, and even though Scientology

798
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 4: is sort of written in this weird progression pattern, Like

799
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 4: it's not like this is the book that teaches us,

800
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 4: this is the book that teaches us. It's like, this

801
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 4: is the chronological evolution of how l Ron Hubbard discovered

802
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 4: and figured this stuff out. So none of it really

803
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 4: there's contradictions everywhere, but it's supposed to be workable. So

804
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 4: in my head, I'm like trying to put things together

805
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 4: and make it make sense.

806
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: And in that time, we.

807
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 4: Knew about the South Park episode because I was not

808
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 4: allowed to watch TV, and I definitely made it an

809
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 4: effort to go out of my way to watch TV

810
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 4: wherever I could. I would like get up at eleven

811
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 4: thirty when my parents went to sleep, and I'd go

812
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 4: sit by the TV and like watch and like look

813
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 4: towards my parents' bedroom, make sure no one was coming,

814
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 4: and you just like we had a TV. We cut

815
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 4: cable for like a few years, but then my parents

816
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 4: started watching TV and they were like, well, they started

817
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 4: watching like Seinfeld and whatever, and then they were like, well,

818
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 4: I guess we can have cable, but you shouldn't watch it.

819
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 4: And I was like, but they were just too lazy.

820
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 4: They didn't know how to fully enforce it. So I

821
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 4: got around to it.

822
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 5: What did Ito and Curb?

823
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 3: Yeah also as well.

824
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 4: Uh and so yeah, I think it was sort of

825
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 4: rebellious to watch and to be like I'm gonna I'm

826
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 4: gonna watch this, I'm gonna prepare myself, and I didn't.

827
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 3: I was like, well, that's not what we believe obviously.

828
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 4: I mean, either're you know, talking about you know, body

829
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 4: like Theatan's getting blown up in volcanoes and the galactic

830
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 4: overlords and like that's definitely not true. So in my

831
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 4: head at the time, I was like, Okay, so I

832
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 4: know that they're just they're just picking on us scientologists

833
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 4: because they they're you know, they just don't know or

834
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 4: they believed what the media tells them, you know, kind

835
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 4: of a very conspiratorial.

836
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 1: Trey Parker did a half assed little job and making

837
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: fun of us and it's not real and you're like,

838
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: who cares?

839
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, And then then and.

840
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 4: So it was I mean, yeah, it was just like, uh,

841
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 4: I just kind of let it go. I kind of

842
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 4: said to myself, like, I can understand.

843
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 3: I was always very willing to.

844
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 4: Try to understand the other perspective, which is wrong in scientology.

845
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 4: You shouldn't try. Don't go there, uh, because I guess

846
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 4: where I was like more inclined to critical thinking because

847
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 4: I wanted to prove them wrong. So to prove someone wrong,

848
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 4: you gotta want to see what they're.

849
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 6: Saying wrong, right, right, right right.

850
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 4: I mean, if Trey Parker Mettstone want to make a sequel,

851
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 4: I'm you hit me up, hit me up too, that'll

852
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 4: be fun. And it was so funny and also even

853
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 4: the parallels. And I recently saw a Book of Mormon

854
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 4: on Broadway and that was incredible.

855
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, they've done so much work I

856
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 2: feel like exposing people to because that was my religion

857
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 2: growing up, exposing people to the weird religions of the world.

858
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 6: The weird everything of the world. Genius.

859
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: But I heard so much about the Mormon episode of

860
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: South Park when I was growing up. Everyone talked about it,

861
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: and you know, I'd be like, no, they're just persecuting us, right, yeah.

862
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 4: They're part of the They're part of those people who

863
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:44,479
Speaker 4: are against us.

864
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, of assholes.

865
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: So you're like, okay, I'm gonna prove South Park wrong.

866
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: This is this is like wildly inaccurate. And then you

867
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: start doing some research.

868
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 4: No, no, no.

869
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 3: Sadly, not that much critical thing.

870
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 4: It was more so it was more so like, all right,

871
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 4: done with that, and I'll move on to the next

872
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 4: episode where they won't talk about it, you know, where

873
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 4: they talk about something else. And it was very critical

874
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 4: about life, or I guess you could say pessimistic for

875
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 4: a long time. And so I kind of saw the

876
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 4: worst in everybody, but I couldn't tell them that because

877
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 4: I wanted people to like me. So I just was like,

878
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 4: you know, in spite of that, we're all fucked up.

879
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna try to be a good person. And

880
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 4: I did not always succeed because I had such a

881
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 4: warped view, like like, even thinking back to my mindset

882
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 4: at the time, there was just so much confusion on

883
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 4: what was right and wrong, and like what information mattered

884
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 4: and didn't matter, and feelings didn't really matter as far

885
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 4: as like you know, how my feelings didn't matter, other

886
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 4: people's feelings didn't matter, because there just was this reality

887
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 4: that I should just accept about the world. So, you know,

888
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 4: I I feel like I ended up doing a lot

889
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 4: of things that, through my interpretation at the time, was harmless.

890
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 4: And then I've grown to see sort of how those

891
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 4: were wrong and how they're damaging, especially in the context.

892
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 4: I mean, I can just say I was ignorant, but

893
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 4: like I do still try to take responsibility for, you know,

894
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 4: the efforts I've made in that time to change, you.

895
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 5: Know, like what kinds of what do you mean, like.

896
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 4: Just treating people. For example, I've brought this up a

897
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 4: few times. One of my best friends growing up came

898
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 4: out to me as gay when I was when we

899
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 4: were like like twelve or something, and it's like terrified

900
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 4: the shit out of me because I was under the

901
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 4: impression that in scientology, gay people are on the same

902
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 4: level of like pedophiles. Wow, in something called the chart

903
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 4: of human evaluation.

904
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 5: I think I knew that.

905
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 6: I didn't either.

906
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 3: It's really fucked up.

907
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 4: It's like basically it is like it's they called aberration

908
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 4: of of ideal thought, and like so Alon Hubbard, you know,

909
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 4: describes them as being aberrated like impulsive, like criminals, and

910
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 4: so to me at the time, I was like, whoa,

911
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 4: I mean, that has no description of my friend. But

912
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 4: like I'm like nervous, and my parents are like making

913
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 4: me anxious about it because like my dad's like joking

914
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 4: about it. Insulting him, and I'm like not laughing along

915
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 4: because this is like crazy to me, and like I

916
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 4: think it's like three days maybe for me to be

917
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 4: like it really doesn't affect me that much for him

918
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,800
Speaker 4: to be gay, So why should I stop being his friend? Like,

919
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 4: like I'm not gay, But he hasn't like tried to,

920
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 4: you know, pursue me because he knows I'm not. Like

921
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 4: he respects me and what I you know, so why

922
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 4: can't I respect him? So like very early on it

923
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 4: just minor things and and things that you kind of

924
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 4: learn along the way. I think I was lucky in

925
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 4: the sense that I didn't just like using you know.

926
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know.

927
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 2: Do you feel like, do you feel like a scientology

928
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 2: because of what it taught you about emotion and about

929
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,919
Speaker 2: how every negative thing is your fault that you feel

930
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 2: or whatever. Do you think that almost like creates these

931
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: like little sociopaths who are sort of taught to not

932
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 2: care about other people Scientology.

933
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 3: That's a great point. That's a great question because.

934
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 4: Scientology, and I've been talking to other people about this,

935
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 4: has this sort of roadmap of how to proceed and

936
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 4: how to get better of me, and that friend. By

937
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 4: the way, me and that friend are still friends today.

938
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 4: He knows that I've told this story, you know, one

939
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 4: of my closest homies. So the roadmap is like kind

940
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 4: of designed to in the effort to dedicate more to scientology,

941
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,760
Speaker 4: more of your mental effort to scientology, you must remove

942
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 4: your apprehension from impinging upon others lives, which usually comes

943
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,479
Speaker 4: in the form of I can quote the auditor's code

944
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 4: and say, not being sympathetic but effective night. Yeah, this

945
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 4: goes into like into posts a lot. So like you

946
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 4: could walk into like a normal scientology organization, like not

947
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 4: Sea org run, and you might see a lot of

948
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 4: smiling people in the front and like, you know, just

949
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 4: about anyone there is willing to help you like get

950
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 4: into scientology, like talk to you whatever for the most part.

951
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 4: But like when you cross over into the sea organization

952
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 4: where everything is this deadly serious activity, and I can

953
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 4: refer you to a policy called keeping Scientology working, which

954
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 4: will tell you the mindset of any scientologist who is

955
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 4: like going on their behalf like kind of what they're

956
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 4: thinking with it. It's some deadly serious activity. But if

957
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 4: we mess up, it's like for the next how many

958
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 4: hundreds of millions of years, we're going to be lost

959
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 4: in this trap of cosmic suffering. You know how convenient

960
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 4: that this one guy on this you know, one planet,

961
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 4: you know, came up with the way to save us

962
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 4: from the trap, and you know it's super urgent thing.

963
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it creates like people snitching on each other, no

964
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: trust them on each other, Like, yeah, it's the perfect story.

965
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 4: You go into these organization things and you see like

966
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 4: a couple people in the front who are nice and

967
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 4: you really only just talk to them. But when you're

968
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 4: behind the scenes, like hostility is everywhere, right, immature, insecure,

969
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 4: like like constantly like you said, you know, snitching on people,

970
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 4: like yelling at their faces.

971
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 3: Like I've been screamed at like more times than.

972
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 4: I can count by BICI org members for some imagined

973
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 4: wrong that I've done or for something that I'm misinterpreting.

974
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 2: I remember Jenna was kind of talking about how it

975
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 2: would just be like people telling on each other at

976
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,919
Speaker 2: all times and just a constant culture of distrust and yeah,

977
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 2: it just not seem like a pleasant way to.

978
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 4: Live, not not at all I have had. And you

979
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 4: can report on you for anything, I mean, even when

980
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 4: I was in school I went to this school, Clearwater Academy,

981
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 4: which is a big scientology school, and.

982
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 3: They write and they so they apply scientology to you.

983
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 4: So when they write, when someone writes a report on you,

984
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 4: it's just down the street from this from FLAG. So

985
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 4: it's like, when someone writes a report on you, per policy,

986
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,240
Speaker 4: this gets routed to your ethics folder. And your ethics

987
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 4: folder is not just in the school, it's at FLAG.

988
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 4: So now everything you do at school that's wrong is

989
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 4: then being funneled to your.

990
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 6: List of crimes would exploded.

991
00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 4: One time, I have gone on you one time as

992
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 4: a funny story when I was like I was like

993
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 4: fourteen or something that I was in DC and somebody

994
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 4: I guess I had made I'd shared some weed memes

995
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 4: on Facebook, and so the ethics officer at the time,

996
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:22,439
Speaker 4: who was also my like homeschool teacher, just a bunch

997
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 4: of kids in the top floor of this building just

998
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 4: getting told.

999
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 6: Her read books.

1000
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly.

1001
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 4: Uh. She she printed out like twenty six pages of

1002
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 4: my Facebook timeline and put it in my my folder,

1003
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 4: and I had there and she had to and she

1004
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 4: put she put me on the e meter or she

1005
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 4: put me in front of that and she just put

1006
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 4: this book. There's a the emeter shield. There are two

1007
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 4: pieces of it. There's the device and then there's the

1008
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 4: shield that goes on top. But you take off the

1009
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 4: shield and you put it behind the e meter to

1010
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 4: put books on so that the person can read.

1011
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 3: So she would just put.

1012
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 4: This big thing in front of my face and be like,

1013
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 4: did you this you?

1014
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 3: I was like, I guess.

1015
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 4: Everybody all right?

1016
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,399
Speaker 2: This concludes part one. Come back next week for part two.

1017
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, lots more to get into with Ian Megan.

1018
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 2: We have obviously had Scientology episodes, so I know your

1019
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: position on that.

1020
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 5: Would you tell your secrets to an auditor?

1021
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:21,479
Speaker 6: Ah?

1022
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 1: I think if Ian was my auditor, which he was

1023
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: auditing people, I.

1024
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 6: Would just let it rip.

1025
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 5: And and why I just trust him.

1026
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: I like him and I and I think that he

1027
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: would have good intentions, but he would snitch on me.

1028
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 6: I mean because he was in Scientology.

1029
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: But I can see in the moment being like I

1030
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 1: just want to tell this man all my problems, and

1031
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: then you realize that you're fucked because now they have

1032
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: a file on you.

1033
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I yeah, I think it really does depend on

1034
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 2: the person. Like the story I've told a million times

1035
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 2: where I went to the Scientology Center for Valentine's Day

1036
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 2: as a joke date. We we you know, he got

1037
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: someone who was like so good and so like like

1038
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 2: just the right fit to hit all his vulnerabilities, and

1039
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: I got someone who was so bad and like I

1040
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 2: was like, what are.

1041
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 5: You talking about? Has nothing to do with.

1042
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,240
Speaker 6: Anything, but it was like the pot psychic Yeah.

1043
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 2: Like the skill level of the person I had that

1044
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 2: they are reading someone and how trustworthy they seem probably.

1045
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 5: Matters a great yeah.

1046
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:21,280
Speaker 6: I agree.

1047
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: Well, next next week's episode with An is so heartbreaking,

1048
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 1: so interesting. We can't wait to show it to y'all.

1049
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 1: In the meantime, rate US five stars, Go buy some merch,

1050
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: do whatever you want.

1051
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 5: We love you, l y slash trust Me merch.

1052
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: Ooo, and as always, remember to follow your gut, watch

1053
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: out for Red Flagg's and never Ever trust Me.

1054
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1055
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1056
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 6: The special thanks to Stacy Para.

1057
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 5: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1058
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1059
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,919
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1060
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: Trustne Cult Podcast.

1061
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 5: I'm ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1062
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: And I Am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1063
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1064
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 5: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.