WEBVTT - AI, Critical Thinking, Ultra-Processed Foods 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:05.119 You're listening to the Bloomberg Opinion podcast count US Saturdays 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:08.280 at one in seven pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:11.479 the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:13.760 on demand wherever you get your podcasts. 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:19.280 Welcome to Bloomberg Opinion. I'm Amy Morris. This week we 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.560 look at the flu shot. Fewer kids are getting vaccinated 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.640 for flu season, and that might actually pose a bigger 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.800 problem for the older folks around them, like their grandparents. Also, 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.159 after some severe whiplash in recent months, it looks like 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.120 home buyers are about to catch a break, and the 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.639 USDA is releasing its food guidelines soon. But if you're 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:43.159 waiting for a warning against ultra processed foods, you might 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:45.920 be waiting a while. But first, let's begin with the 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:49.720 humanities and social sciences. Their popularity in the US has 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.640 been waiting in recent years. Bill Falls is dean of 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.000 the College of Arts and Sciences at the University of Vermont. 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.680 Earlier this year, he told a local television station that 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.200 the school has trimmed its budget, letting about five percent 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.679 of their full time professors go and transitioning others to 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:07.319 part time. 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.200 The concern that folks have had about taking away from 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:15.480 the humanities. Maybe gets confused to think that somehow we 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.160 don't value the humanities or don't want the humanities to thrive. 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:23.720 I think it's just because of this shift in student interest. 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.559 It is a shift, he says, that started to show 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.959 up back in twenty ten, as many students focus on 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.920 stem fields with skills more directly applicable to their careers. 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.800 But perhaps the humanities and social sciences have failed to 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.120 train students to be critical thinkers, and that may be 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.600 where artificial intelligence comes in. We get more on this 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.680 with Bloomberg opinion columnist Alison Schrager, who covers economics and 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.000 is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. Alison, why 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.280 do you say in your column on the Bloomberg Terminal 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:56.720 that the arts are no longer teaching students to be 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:57.520 critical thinkers? 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:00.840 Well, I mean, traditionally, you know, you would read the 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.320 great books, you would get this very sort of like 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:07.680 great nuanced view of history. But it seems like more 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.320 and more that, I mean, at least we keep seeing 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.639 coming out of universities is a simple, more reductive view 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:18.560 of the world. And you know that also just doesn't 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.920 really sort of ask the big questions and come up 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:23.760 with a sort of a way of understanding very complex 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.400 issues or really a great understanding of history. It seems 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:30.720 like from definitely what we've been told or my friends 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:34.200 who teach in the humanities, people, you're getting people they've 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.200 sort of gone away from that, taken sort of a 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:40.880 different view. Some call it postmodern, and you know, I mean, 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.480 there's a lot of different viewpoints of history. That's certainly 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.320 a valid one, but the problem is when it takes over, 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.640 you don't really sort of get those critical thinking skills 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.440 of seeing different problems from different perspectives. 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.480 And it looks like that not only is enrollment in 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:59.600 humanity's dropping, but more Americans are actually questioning the value 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:00.760 of a college education. 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.560 Yeah, and everyone keeps saying that that's because students just 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.000 you know, college has got a lot more expensive, and 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.280 they want to get value for money. They want to go, 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:11.919 they want to study something that will give them a 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:13.760 job right out of school. And I think there's a 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.480 lot to that for the decline. But I think it's 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:18.920 also worth asking is are the communities also not doing 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.760 what they're supposed to do and students don't want to 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:23.560 show up for a class and be lectured about their 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.360 professor's political opinion. They actually do want to sort of 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.160 like have a better sense of knowledge and truth. And 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:30.959 you know, I think that's one of the reasons we've 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:33.840 lost sight of why the humanities is actually very valuable 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:35.800 and actually I think are going to be more valuable 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:37.480 than ever for the way the economy is changing. 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.600 Let's get into that. This is where AI comes in then, 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.680 and changing of the economy. How does that fit into 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.720 this puzzle and make humanities maybe more valuable. 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:48.440 Well, I mean, no one knows what AI is going 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:49.880 to mean for the labor market. There's a lot of 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:52.360 doom and gloom. So I'm just going to rely on 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.160 I think I mentioned to you I've not actually taken 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.160 a lot of humanities in my own education, but I 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.280 did take a lot of economic history, uh, just because 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.560 I went to college in Scotland where they make you 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:06.800 do that, and so I did study a lot of 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.960 the Industrial Revolution and what that did to labor. So 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.120 I'm going off my own history education of what I 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.120 think could happen with AI, and what we found in 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.760 the Industrial Revolution is labor did find a way, but 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.400 the found the way if you managed to work with 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.760 the new technology rather than be replaced by it. And 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.400 so when it comes to artificial intelligence and it can 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.159 do thinking, you know, you want to be someone who 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.440 can really think well, so you can compliment that, like 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:36.680 you know, you could I use AI right now, and 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:38.840 I'm sure in the future a w'll be more as 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:42.040 like almost like a research assistant for me myself. You know, 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.560 it sort of digs up stuff, but I still am 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.120 as a critical thinker then think, all right, give this 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.320 information AI has given me, I take it to that 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:53.440 next level. So critical thinking skills is a great compliment 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:55.719 to AI. And if you just sort of had this 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.680 very reductive simple view of the world, well then you know, 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.680 AI can do what you can do. So we really 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:03.919 need to be thoughtful thinkers and like just sort of 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.680 learning vocational skills in college, those are the skills they're 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.640 going to be replaced. So we really want to learn 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.640 how to think well, and how to think critically, and 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.479 how to especially people's skills, how to get along with 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.720 people different ideas, how to weigh different arguments. I mean, 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:20.160 this is really what you're going to learn. I have 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.720 to learn how to do to thrive in the New Economy. 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.880 And we are talking with Bloomberg opinion columnist Alison Schreeger 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:30.000 about how AI can help make humanities degrees more valuable. 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.320 And Alison, let me see if I can sum up 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:33.920 what you've just said. I want to make sure I'm 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:38.600 following you here. The student would eventually be competing in 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.160 a way with AI, so they'd have to be critical 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.920 thinkers in a way artificial intelligence cannot be, and that 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:49.080 gives them the skill that is more marketable, something that 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:50.320 AI doesn't offer. 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.000 Yeah, I mean everyone who is an AI enthusiast tells 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.280 me AO would be doing critical thinking. But from well, 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.520 I understand at least for large language models, and maybe 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:03.360 things will change. It's really good at taking a lot 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:07.400 of sort of existing information and sort of finding sort 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:11.760 of the most common argument with that, And so I 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:13.720 mean that's useful, that gives you a lot, But when 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:15.880 it comes to sort of coming up with novel information 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.359 or sort of being faced with new information, I know 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.560 for my own work with statistics, it's less good for that. 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.760 So while it's valuable and informs you really being able 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.480 to think critically, how to really sort of understand different 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.040 arguments and where they're coming at you and how to 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:33.040 synthesize them actually becomes really valuable. And AI is super 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:34.839 helpful but actually doesn't replace you. 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.760 Is critical thinking just too hard? I mean, how did 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.480 we get here to the point where critical thinking isn't 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:41.719 valued or isn't taught? 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.120 Well, it is hard, and it's really I got to say. 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.039 I mean, I did a PhD, so I got pretty 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.359 I guess advanced thinking skills, and I found the process 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:56.960 very unpleasant. It's terrible. I mean it's upsetting as well 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:59.080 for college students of all ages. It always has been, 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:00.600 and I mean, I think this is an issue. It's 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.760 not just that the curriculum gotten less critical. It's also 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:07.719 gotten less rigorous, because you know, most ideas you have 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.400 when you're young are kind of bad and stupid or derivative, 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:13.360 and you know you need professors to tell you that, 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:15.480 Like yeah, like a gazillion people said that about Plato 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:16.760 with the first time they read it, and they're wrong, 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:20.480 and here's why. And that's unpleasant to hear. I could tell, 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:23.480 I could mark of my own education how upsetting it 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:25.280 was to be told my ideas were derivative or not 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.600 very good. But that's how you get better. And I 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:30.880 feel like, you know, the humanities are supposed to be 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:32.800 the tough ones who are like, guess what, you're kind 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.400 of dumb. Here's how to think better. And I think 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.480 there's a reluctance I noticed when I've teached to sort 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.240 of be direct with students about that. 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:43.920 Now are reluctance to be more direct with students? 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:46.680 Yeah, as I said, because critical thinking skills are very 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.280 unpleasant to acquire. They're incredibly valuable, yes, but they're hard 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:54.720 to teach and they're even more unpleasant to acquire. And 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.720 I feel like, you know, humanities are uniquely positioned to 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.360 impart that, but just not really doing that work anymore. 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:05.480 Is this a US phenomenon or is this something we'll 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:06.160 see globally? 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.680 I think it's global. I mean, I'm I said, I 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.440 went to a university in Europe, and you know, from 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.200 what I observe, I think it's happening there too. 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:21.440 At the same time, when you have more Americans thinking 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.680 that perhaps higher education isn't worth it, do we run 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:26.760 the risk of going too far the other direction? 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:30.400 Yeah, I mean, it's definitely not as worth it as 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:32.280 it used to be, but it's still worth it. I mean, 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.839 all the evidence still suggests that if you do get 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:36.560 a good college degree, and by that I mean go 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.480 to a decent school, do a four year degree, it 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.640 does pay off. You will not only have higher wages, 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:44.480 but you have more stable wages, you have much less 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:48.800 of an incident of unemployment. So but I do think 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.319 that the education isn't maybe as good as it used 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:52.679 to be in a lot of ways depending on what 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:56.840 you study. And so I mean, I think we do 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.120 run the risk of you know, the US I think 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.760 is often succeeded more as an economy because we've also 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.000 had the best universities in the world. And you know, 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.200 if we don't really teach people how to be good 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:11.160 thinkers at our universities, then you know, we do run 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.679 the risk of people then not going to university, and 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:15.040 then it just becomes a vicious cycle. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.720 I wonder where trade schools fall in here, because we've 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.400 talked before about the need for trade schools and how 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:21.720 we can't just write them off. 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:27.440 No, they're super important. And you know, I was reading 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.240 this article in The Economist about how the trades are 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:35.360 really sort of dominating now the labor market, and it 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.000 reminds me, have you seen a recent episode of South 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:43.040 Park where it's always so present, where they have like 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.120 this handyman who becomes effectively the Elon Musk of That's 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.240 economy because he's the only one who can fix things. 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:51.800 So reading this article in The Economists, it reminded me 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.839 of that. So I mean that is also going to 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:56.960 be an important part of the economy. Although, to be honest, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.280 like when I talk to like if a plumber comes 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.240 to my apartment or I do have a contractor come, like, 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.840 have you've seen their work? Like even there, they're not 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.800 just like dirty work anymore. Like I mean, they also 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:12.520 have to use a lot of skills, incorporate technology into 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:14.360 what they do, and they also really have to be 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:16.920 very thoughtful about what they're doing. Their work's getting a 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.560 lot more complicated and technical too, So it's not just 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.160 a matter of like doing a plumbing apprenticeship and then 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:25.080 you're good to go. I mean they've got to really 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.240 engage in, stay current and keep learning too. I mean, 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:29.839 as I said, we've all got to learn how to 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.079 be good thinkers. And I mean doing a four year 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:34.559 Lobal Arts degree doesn't mean everyone should do it. I 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:38.000 don't think it's efficient that the entire popular labor force 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.040 go through that. But you know, if you are going 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:43.400 to go that route, that's really I think a valuable 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:45.000 path too, and I think we undersell it. 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:47.880 Alison, thank you for taking the time with me today, 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.960 Oh anytime. Alison s Trigger is a Bloomberg Opinion columnist 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:54.560 who covers economics and is a senior Fellow at the 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.120 Manhattan Institute. Coming up, we're going to look at the 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.120 cold and flu season and how some parents are not 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.199 getting flu shots for their kids, and why you're listening 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:04.280 the Bloomberg Opinion. 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:16.079 You're listening to the Bloomberg Opinion podcast count ut Saturdays 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.240 at one and seven pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.440 the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:24.720 on demand wherever you get your podcasts. 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.400 You're listening to Bloomberg Opinion. I'm Amy Morris, and we 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.640 are well into cold and flu season, not just for adults, 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.720 but for youngsters too. And while every parent knows the 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.120 feeling of helplessness when your little one has a nasty 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.200 cow or a fever, not every parent is making sure 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:45.640 their child is vaccinated. Westchester County Health Commissioner doctor Shirlita 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.400 Ambler in New York says people need to get those 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.520 flu shots, even if they're tired of hearing about vaccines. 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:54.679 I if anyone understands that there's a lot of vaccine 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:58.000 fatigue out there, but we still have to work to 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:02.319 protect ourselves and our family and everybody that we care about. 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:05.839 Let's get more on this with Bloomberg opinion columnist Lisa Jarvis. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:11.520 Lisa covers biotech, healthcare, and the pharmaceutical industry. Lisa, does 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.200 that make sense to you that there's just this vaccination 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.600 slash shot fatigue and folks are tired of hearing about 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:18.360 it and don't want to deal. 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:20.920 Yeah, you know, I think that's certainly part of it. 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.120 I think there's a confluensive issues potentially happening related to 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.160 the rollout of the COVID vaccines, which might have made 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.040 it so that people were having a hard time finding 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:33.880 that vaccine and they were planning to get their flu 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.400 shot at the same time and didn't do either if 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.040 they couldn't find the COVID one. But certainly, you know, 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.440 we have heard a lot for a while, every six 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:47.040 months reminders to go get some sort of shot or another, 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.480 and you know, I think people are starting to tune 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:51.120 out a little bit. I think there's a number of 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:53.040 things good on and I'm happy to talk about all those. 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:55.719 Yeah, let's get into that. Why the hesitancy? What are 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.080 some of the things that are going on. 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.679 It's easy to kind of reflectively think, oh, it's COVID 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.360 vaccine driven hesitancy. That's the reason behind this flu shot 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.520 decline in kids. And it's a modest decline, but it 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:11.480 matters because kids already weren't getting vaccinated at the rate 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.200 that we'd like to see them at, because they're really 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:18.280 important part of protecting adults when it comes to the flu. 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:20.920 Older adults are the ones who are most vulnerable to 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:24.000 the worst outcomes. But you know, as I mentioned, the 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:28.080 commercial rollout of COVID shots really hit the pediatric vaccines 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:32.079 the hardest, and so parents were scrambling for weeks after 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.080 the vaccines were supposed to be initially available looking for 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.160 those shots. And any parent that's had their kids vaccinated 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.400 nose you only want to go once and get both 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.600 shots at the same time, so you don't have the 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.880 angst of two trips and more tears potentially, And so 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.360 you know, if someone couldn't find a shot, they might 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:52.120 not have gotten it at all. And there were some 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.480 wrinkles when it came to coverage of the COVID shot. 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.360 Initially not all insurers had the right coding in place, 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:00.960 and so if you went in you had an appointment 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:02.319 and then we're told you were going to have to 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:04.160 pay for it out of pocket, you might have decided 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:08.240 not to get either vaccine. And then anecdotally, you know, 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.720 I've heard from pediatricians and I've noticed this in my 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.280 own community that there have just been fewer vaccine clinics. 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.720 A lot of times pediatricians' offices will run, you know, 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.240 several weekends in a row of flu vaccine clinic and 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.160 it's just like a mill, bring your whole family in 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:24.400 and get the shots. And a lot of them didn't 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.880 do that this year. In part, it seems like because 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.200 there's just a shortage of healthcare workers, and so I 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.560 think it's a complience of things happening, but all of 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.440 it kind of translates into not a great situation. 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.840 Do we know how many kids so far have gotten 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.840 the flu shot percentage wise and what the goal is? 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.640 Yeah, so as of early November, because there's a little 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.680 lag in the data that we see from CDC the 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.840 national numbers where thirty six point five percent of kids 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.040 had gotten their shot last year and this year it 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.040 was thirty two point six percent. That's the lowest in 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:04.320 five years. Twenty nineteen, the trend had been overall kids 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.400 were starting to get more their flu shot more consistently, 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.840 and then we saw a little leap that first year 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.560 of COVID. I think parents feeling helpless without a COVID shot. 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.080 We're pretty good about getting their kids their flu vaccine, 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.960 and we've just seen a decline. Since the goal always 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.600 is to get seventy percent of the population vaccinated, we 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.560 never get to that place in the US, you know, 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.080 I think we do the best, which is good with 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.240 older folks, but older folks also have immune systems that 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.280 just don't aren't as robust even with vaccination, and so 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:38.640 they rely on the rest of us to kind of 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.640 help cocoon them from the worst outcomes of the flu. 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.280 You were just talking about the elderly. Let's talk about 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.040 that a little bit more. The risk isn't necessarily then, 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:51.200 from what I'm hearing you say, for children per se, 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.040 it's for the spread to make sure the kids don't 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:56.479 give it to grandma and grandpa. 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:58.880 That's right. I mean, just like we've all come to 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.160 learn very well with the COVID shots, the flu shot 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.400 isn't necessarily going to prevent you from getting the flu, 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.840 but but like it does actually help lower the spread 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:12.200 of the virus. And kids are vulnerable to you know, 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.120 hospitalizations from the flu, just like they are from COVID. 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:19.200 But really the biggest threat here is to you know, 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:21.760 grandma and grandpa, and so, you know, folks over the 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:23.640 age of sixty five are the ones who end up 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.560 with the most hospitalizations and are responsible for, you know, 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.720 the majority of deaths. One thing that I always keep 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:32.840 in mind is that there was a study that people 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:37.160 still cite kind of Japan that showed that when you 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.920 had a high percentage of school age children vaccinated, you 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.720 actually saw fewer deaths among older the older population. And so, 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.960 you know, it just is it's I try to think 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:50.000 about that when I think about why it is that, 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:51.600 you know, I take my own kid in to get 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:53.480 her flu shot. It's for her, but it's also for 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:54.480 the people around her. 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.800 Are there efforts being made on the government level, on 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:01.720 the school level, the local level, to get more kids vaccinated. 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:02.640 Is there a push there. 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.760 I think there's always been a push, and the CDC 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.600 had a different blue vaccine campaign. They try to change 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.159 their messaging up a little bit this year, essentially to 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.280 try to get at this idea that it's not gonna 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.280 prevent you necessarily from getting the flu, but when you 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:21.200 get the flu, it's not going to be a severe 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:26.600 and they I think, you know, we're seeing mixed success 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.920 with that. It's a complicated season, you know, to be fair, 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:34.160 We've got COVID shots that we're rolling out, the flu vaccine, 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:37.440 and then there's new RSV shots for older folks and 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:42.359 in RSV preventive therapy for infants, and so I think 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:47.760 just the messaging has been really muddled because people are 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:49.440 trying to keep track of a lot of things. And 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:51.720 as you know, you pointed out the very beginning, this 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:56.400 is coming amid some fatigue around getting shots in general. 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:00.400 Are there certain areas of the country that are are 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.520 not getting vaccinated? Is it demographically divided? 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.960 Yeah? I mean so, I think one of the reasons 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:10.520 that there's you know, concern around hesitancy is because when 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:12.560 you look at the map of the places that have 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.720 dropped the most in terms of kids in flu vaccines. 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:17.720 You know, many of them are in red states, some 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.280 of them are in states where the political rhetoric around 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:24.119 vaccination of COVID has been the hottest. And so you 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:28.920 know Florida, for example, which has been in the bottom 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:32.520 kind of twelve states in general in the past when 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.639 it comes to vaccinations for the flu for kids, but 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:39.119 this year they saw another drop in their vaccinations. And 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.160 you know, we know we've heard that Governor Ronda Santis 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.679 in his presidential campaign has really been kind of hitting 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.920 on COVID vaccines and initially wasn't even going to participate 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.159 in some of the booster rollouts for that, and so 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.120 you know there's a worry that that's bleeding over into 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.080 other childhood vaccinations. 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.840 I want to talk about that just briefly, because you know, COVID, 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:04.200 a rather vaccination hesitancy or anti vax if you will, 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.400 is not new. That's been going on since before COVID. 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:11.720 I'm wondering though, if now that we're seeing parents more 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.760 hesitant to get the flu shot for their kids, is 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.080 it becoming more mainstream. It used to be such an outlier. 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:20.959 Now are more parents sort of jumping on the anti 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.200 vax bandwagon. Where could this wind up? 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.840 Yeah, it's really worrisome, to be honest with you. This 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:28.679 is a thing that I've been trying to watch closely, 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.320 and I think everyone is trying to see with every 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:33.920 new scrap of data comes out, you know what it means. 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:38.560 We saw that there was a drop in childhood vaccinations 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:40.960 for kindergarteners. You know, when you go into school for 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.000 the first time, there's a series of shots that you 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:45.840 need to have. And fewer kids in January when the 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:47.919 data came out, were up to date in twenty twenty 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.359 two than had been in the past, which is concerning. 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.159 I think it's hard to unravel if it has to 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.120 do with vaccine hesitancy, if it has to do with 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:01.600 fewer people having access to healthcare. You know, I probably 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.680 is a number of factors. What does seem to be happening. 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.720 They're kind of hardening into you know, I feel really 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.159 good about vaccines or I really don't feel good about it, 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:13.800 instead of there's less folks living in that grey area, 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.000