1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,119 Speaker 1: My guest today is John Tierney. John is a contributing 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: editor to City Journal and a former columnist for The 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: New York Times. He is the co author of Willpower, 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength and the Power of Bead. 6 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: How the negativity effect rules us and how we can 7 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: rule it. Hi, John, so nice to have you buy me. 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 2: I'm a huge fan. 9 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan. I was just going to say, 10 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: I am a huge, huge fan. And it's rare that 11 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: I remember the very first thing I read by somebody. 12 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,279 Speaker 1: But I remember the first column I read by you, 13 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: and maybe you can guess what it is. It was 14 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: sort of a big deal. It was thirty years ago. 15 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: I was in college, and of course it was recycling 16 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: is garbage. It was the first time, and you know, 17 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: I was already a conservative, but it was the first 18 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: time that I realized, Wow, we could be told total 19 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: nonsense by experts. So you really opened my eyes to 20 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: that and led me, you know, have that sensation throughout 21 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: my life. What was the huge controversy about that piece? 22 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 2: It well, it set a record for hate mail at 23 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 2: the New York Times magazine was the cover story recycling 24 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: his Garbage, which I don't think they'd ever run today. 25 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 3: No, definitely not, although they didn't did their credit. 26 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 2: That was like in ninety seven or something like that. 27 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 2: Ninety six, and then in twenty seventeen they asked me 28 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 2: to come back and re visited for the you know, 29 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: the Sunday Review section, and you know, and it was 30 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: a recycling looked even worse. But you know, the idea 31 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: was this garbage bag, this garbage bar is like in 32 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: the early nineties, couldn't find a place to put the 33 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: garbage because they just tightened up all these environmental roles 34 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 2: and there weren't and there wasn't space in the existing land. 35 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 2: They were closing landfill and so this turned into the 36 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 2: garbage crisis, that we were running out of space and 37 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: that we had to recycle and there was no short 38 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 2: there's so much room in this country to bury garbage. 39 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: And it was ridiculous and I always call it it 40 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 2: was a solution in search of a problem. They've been 41 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: doing it ever since, they keep and then it became 42 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: obvious that we're not running out of all these resources. 43 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 2: There's no short is it paper? You know, there's no 44 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 2: shortness of trees, and it became obvious that there's plenty 45 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: of landfill space to put it way on the country. 46 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: The communities that get this garbage are happy because it's 47 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: a ton of revenue for them that they beautiful school. 48 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: I visited a landfill in this rural county and they 49 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 2: had this brand new school, much better than anything in 50 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 2: New York thanks to the revenue that we give them 51 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: for taking our garbage. And you can't even find this 52 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 2: landfill unless you know where it is. It's just you know, 53 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 2: off in the state, so you know. Ever since then, 54 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 2: it's just you know. And then it became well, it's, oh, 55 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 2: it's for climate change. You know, that's their new one. 56 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 2: And it really makes virtually no difference. A lot of 57 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: this stuff, I think probably increases emissions. And of course 58 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 2: now in New York we have this absurd thing. This 59 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: year we have to do composting, which makes even less 60 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: sense than everything else, so expensive, it's sets a pain 61 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 2: to do, and there's it's just I mean, the city 62 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: is going broke and we're wasting money and wasting people's time. 63 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 2: It's just incredible. But you know what I really learned 64 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: from it I guess is that it's a religion, you know, 65 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: and you can't really change people's mind. 66 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you recycle? 67 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 2: No, well, I mean I do it with paper, probably 68 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 2: because I don't want my building the garbage police to 69 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 2: do it. And it's fairly easy with paper, you just 70 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 2: you know, I mean you put the newspapers in a 71 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: stack and you put them in a bag. But otherwise, no, 72 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 2: I do not. 73 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: Do recycle because I'm afraid of getting a ticket. I 74 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: don't know if they would do that in Florida, but 75 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: my mom got a ticket in Brooklyn and it like 76 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: traumatized me. She didn't wrap her newspaper the right way 77 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: or something a number of years ago, and that's it. 78 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: Ever since then, I've. 79 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: Been it's unbelievable with people going around doing this, you know, 80 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: and now they're supposed to be going around looking for 81 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: like food grounds, and I can imagine the job of 82 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 2: doing that, and you're digging through garbage to do it, 83 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: and there's so many things that have to be down 84 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 2: in the city. It's just I mean, but you know, 85 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 2: but what also happened it's probably a religion with individuals 86 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: white people. It's 'es basically people all were wasting. I 87 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: hate to waste things. But also it's now just become 88 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 2: this recycling industrial complex, these activist groups, environmentalists to do it, 89 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 2: and then there are these companies that are now you know, 90 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 2: because we spend so much more money to recycle. There's 91 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: money to be made by people. 92 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely, did you always want to be the kind of 93 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: writer that destroys the faith of college students in the experts. 94 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: I guess I've always sort of been a contrarian. But 95 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 2: I really think what happened to me was I mean, 96 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 2: in college, I was a sort of conventional liberal, you know. 97 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: I think I even went door to door from a governor. 98 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: I think, in my heart, I was always really a libertarian, 99 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 2: you know, but I didn't. But I remember as a freshman, 100 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: I even went to a meeting of the Young Socialist Club, 101 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is. 102 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: That's where the pretty girls were or I have no money. 103 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 3: Socialism sounded grace right, right, okay? And then but I 104 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 3: was so. 105 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: Put off by the people you know there, just you know, 106 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 2: the kind of activists that run that that I never 107 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: went back. And I also as a freshman, once I 108 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 2: went to Yale and William slung coffin the famous, you know, 109 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 2: left wing a reverend. He led us down to protest 110 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: the bombing in Cambodia at the time. We all wrote 111 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: Buzzes Down. We visited Congressman and you know, and I was, 112 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: you know, anti war. I you know, I had a 113 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: draft number. It wasn't particularly eager to go, but just 114 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 2: that experience of seeing the leaders on the bus talking, 115 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: I just realized I don't like these people. You know, 116 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: they're really out for power that you know they're using 117 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 2: this to do it. So that turned me off. And 118 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: then what really happened to me, though, was as a journalist. 119 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: You know, I did want to go into journalism, and 120 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 2: as I was reporting stories, I just kept finding that 121 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 2: if you actually went out and looked, you saw that 122 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 2: the facts bore no relation to the. 123 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: Narrative, Right, what might you have done instead? The writing 124 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: thing not worked out well. 125 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: I went to college as a math major. I liked it, 126 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: and then really it took first and I took you know, 127 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 2: sort of a class, an advanced class freshman year because 128 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 2: I passed the ap for calculus, so. 129 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: Rare, like writers usually have no math skills. I mean, 130 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: so many people that I've spoken to on this show 131 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: say that they are a bad at math. Just I 132 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: think it usually goes hand in hand. That's interesting. 133 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: No, but I got in this class and I just 134 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 2: was with upperclassmen, and I realized, you know, with math, 135 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: when you don't get it, you know, there's nothing like it. 136 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 2: Either you get it or you don't. I realized I'd 137 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: better find something else to do. And I met in 138 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 2: my freshman year Williams Injured. You know the name who 139 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: wrote the book on writing Well. 140 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: It's so million, Yes, yes, I do know the book. 141 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: Yes, he actually I think growth like. He was a 142 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 2: writer for Life magazine who then wanted to teach nonfiction writing. 143 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 2: At the time, this was like something nobody did. And 144 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 2: he wrote letters like a hundred colleges and no, but 145 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: he was interested except Yale was one. There was one 146 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: other little place somewhere, so he went there and taught 147 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 2: this class on writing well, where you do these writing exercises, 148 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 2: and then he turned that class into this book I'm 149 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: Writing Well, which is a great book. And I and 150 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: he came to like a coffee in my dorm. It 151 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 2: was nice of him to do it, and I talked 152 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: to him and at the class was hard to get into. 153 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: He kind of for some reason, he said, I'll let 154 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 2: you in my class next semester. And I remember walking 155 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: home and walking back to my dorm from that class 156 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: thinking I could be a magazine writer. Yeah, that seemed 157 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: like the most glamorous thing in the world to me, right, 158 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: and also I don't have to do math. And then 159 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: I managed to get summer jobs at newspapers. And it 160 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: was really hard to get summer jobs when I was 161 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: in college, but the internships are one way to do it, 162 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 2: so and that's how I got started. 163 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: So where did you get your start? What was the first? 164 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: I got a summer job at the Pittsburgh Press. I 165 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: grew up in Pittsburgh after living in the Midwestern and 166 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: South America for a little bit. And then and then 167 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 2: I got a summer job at the Philadelphia Bulletin. And 168 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: then I got a summer job at the Minneapolis Tribune, 169 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 2: which would not give me a and I was out. 170 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: I graduated then, and they did not want to give 171 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 2: me a job because they had an ombusman who was 172 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: obsessed with corrections. They kept a talent and I made 173 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: three or four little mistakes, but that was enough to 174 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: do me so and then I came back I worked 175 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: at the Bergen Record and then the Washington Star, and 176 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 2: then I went into magazine writing in the eighty science writing. 177 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: So I always liked science, and so you know, I 178 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 2: did that, yeah a while, and then joy the Times finally. 179 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: So would you say that your beat, like I think 180 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: at the Times, your beat was maybe looking at science 181 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: and other fields through a more realistic lens. Do you 182 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: think that that's still your beat or has that changed? 183 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: Well? At the Times, I started out in the Metro section, 184 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: and I actually the first column I wrote there was 185 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: called the Big City. There was about New York. So 186 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 2: I did that, and then I did it up ed column, 187 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 2: and then I did the science column for about six 188 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: years or something. And so I've always liked science writing, 189 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 2: but I've always liked writing about other stuff too. And 190 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: you asked about how how I changed my ideas, and 191 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: it really was like it was like during magazine writing 192 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 2: that I met the scientists and a lawyer who were libertarians, 193 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: and like they made me high X book road to 194 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 2: serve them, and it was really like Esquire Magazine sent 195 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 2: me to do it. They did a thing called Man 196 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: at his Best or no Men of the Year or 197 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 2: something whatever. It was they did men we like, you know, 198 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 2: and they assigned me and I got the lawyer I 199 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: think his name was Van Osteen, who brought the case 200 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 2: to the Supreme Court that allowed lawyers to advertise. And 201 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 2: so I met him and he was like a libertarian, 202 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: you know, you know, And I met other people who 203 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: were and I met Julian Simon mcconast just through my work, 204 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: and you meet them and you'd see stuff on what 205 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,199 Speaker 2: was actually happening and realize, you know, I mean it 206 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: was really kind of those people and the facts. I 207 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: so that changed my mind. 208 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say, it's funny. I very rarely hear 209 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: the story that somebody came around to libertarianism because of 210 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: the libertarians. It's actually quite the opposite. Usually it's like 211 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: I like libertarianism, but not libertarians. It's interesting that you 212 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: had the reverse effect happened to you. 213 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 2: Well, I kind of met guys that I really respected, 214 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: you know, people, and then and once you start looking 215 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: at the facts and you start reading, go, yeah, that 216 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: makes a lot of it. And I realized my own 217 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 2: liberalism was more, you know, keep the government out of 218 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: my private life. It wasn't that I thought big government 219 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 2: was great. You know. I mean another thing once that 220 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 2: I got a summer job in Pittsburgh working for the 221 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: Parks Department and we had this fishing pond and we 222 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: handed out fishing poles, and it was it was during 223 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,599 Speaker 2: Nixon had this neighborhood youth course and to employ minority 224 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 2: kids and poor neighborhoods, and we had like twenty four people. 225 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 2: There was enough work for one or two people. We 226 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 2: had like twenty four kids doing stuff that we would 227 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: just send home because they didn't there was really nothing 228 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: for them to do. And then at one point my 229 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 2: coworker he started leaving early and he said, you know, 230 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 2: why should we both stay here till nine o'clock? So 231 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: he would go home some nights and I would go 232 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: home with the other. It turned out when I was 233 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: going home, he was also going home and we got caught. 234 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: And well, I'm quaking because I'd worked in a drug 235 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 2: store and I thought, oh my god, we're really in 236 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: trouble now. And the county supervisor comes out and says, 237 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: if this ever happens again, you won't be paid for 238 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 2: that time. 239 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 3: And you're like, what, Yeah, this is the government and 240 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 3: also the people. 241 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: I knew that, I mean you know kids in school 242 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: who got jobs with the state, you know, transportation Department. 243 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: They all just bragged how nobody worked, you know, right, So. 244 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: What are we doing? Why how come we don't have 245 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: government jobs and not work. I feel like I'm doing 246 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: this all wrong, Like I have to work. We're going 247 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: to take a quick break and be right back on 248 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: the Carol Marcowitch Show. So what would you say like 249 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: your your books, especially The Power of Bad I found it. 250 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: I loved it, by the way. I read it a 251 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: number of years ago. I thought it was so excellent. 252 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: Do you feel like I feel like your style is 253 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: very like you think it's like this, but it's really 254 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: like this. And I enjoyed that a lot because I 255 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: like having my opinions challenged. Do you feel like that's 256 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: your style? 257 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you're exactly right. I did a science blog at 258 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: the Times called Tierney Lab, and the two founding principles 259 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: we had on the I had on the main page 260 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 2: was just because an idea appeals to a lot of 261 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: people doesn't mean it's wrong. Number two, but that's a 262 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,479 Speaker 2: good working hypothesis. And I love the fact that conventional 263 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: wisdom was coined by John Kempy and it doesn't mean 264 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: what everybody The original meaning was not just what everybody believed, 265 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 2: but what is convenient for everybody to believe, you know, 266 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 2: and in so many things that just you know, people 267 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: want to believe it. 268 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: So, yeah, what are you most proud of in your life? 269 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: I guess it the fact of kind of you know, 270 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 2: find you know, standing up and saying, you know this, 271 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 2: this stuff is wrong. I mean exactly what you said 272 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 2: there that and and doing things on my own and 273 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 2: you know, it's hard. It was kind of hard to 274 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 2: do some of that at the times. The readership has 275 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 2: hated me, you know, for doing that. But I and 276 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: I was really proud during COVID being a city journal 277 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: that that was one of the few places and I 278 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 2: think we were like the almost the first that came 279 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 2: out and said lockdowns are and say. 280 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: Hey, hey New York Post. 281 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, you guys were good, but we were, 282 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 2: you know, and I was, you know, I remember, I 283 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 2: was proud of, you know, because at the time there 284 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: was sets panic. Nobody can say anything, you know, you'll 285 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 2: kill people. 286 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, So so. 287 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: I think and I think by then I knew the 288 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: public health world. I mean I wrote a piece like 289 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 2: back in two thousands. I don't know, you know, many 290 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: years ago on the corruption of public health, that it 291 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 2: was so hopelessly politicized. So I really knew, don't believe 292 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 2: these people. 293 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: So has it been a challenge other than the hate 294 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: mail at the Times? Like have you been canceled? Have 295 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: you you know, had calls for your head? 296 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: I'm trying to you know what I was at the Times? 297 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 2: It was kind of pre canceled. Yeah, I mean it was. 298 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: I mean I knew that most of the people there 299 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: didn't like it, and I mean, you know, when I 300 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 2: started writing the bed column, I got I got a 301 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 2: note from Al Hunt, who was the liberal columnist on 302 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 2: the Wall Street Journal page, and he said, it's a 303 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: great gig, you know, being the contrarian on you know, 304 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 2: it keeps you on us. And that's one thing I 305 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: really do. I mean, you just have to cover your 306 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: clients when you're doing this, you know, you have to 307 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: be so careful. Yeah, but he said, it's a great gig. 308 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: It keeps you honest. But don't read the mail. 309 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: So funny, so funny, because I remember really disliking Al 310 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: Hunt when I was in college. I'm being like, why 311 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: does the Wall Street Journal publish this guy, and now, 312 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's good to publish a variety 313 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: of opinions to make myself angry in the morning. 314 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: You know. But I mean when I you know, when 315 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 2: I wrote this a bed column at the Times, you know, 316 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 2: I stopped looking at the comments. I did follow his advice, 317 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: but when I looked at them, sometimes there were like 318 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: five people who would gather at the column every day 319 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: and just talking about how much they hated me. And 320 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 2: I always wondered, like, you don't have to read. 321 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: It, right, those are your biggest fans. That's what's so funny, 322 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: Like I you know, the people who obsessed negatively about 323 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: my work. I love them because they're so into it. 324 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: They read all of my stuff. They know everything I've 325 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: ever said. It's like that is spandom right there. 326 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 2: You are great. Well that's a tribute to you, you know. 327 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: But do you read their comments? 328 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 3: Yeah? 329 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: I love it. I thrive on the negative comments. The 330 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: more you hate me as long as you're reading me, 331 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: the more I enjoy it. 332 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: Well, that's great, that's good. You know. I wrote a 333 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 2: piece like a year or two ago that I may 334 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: turn into a book with Ory Baummeister called The misogyny myth, 335 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: and it's it's really has this idea that there is 336 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 2: a misogyny. Actually both sexes are biased against man really 337 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: and and I was hoping, you know, I assumed i'd 338 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: be attacked by feminists, But I think the left's new 339 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 2: thing is we just ignore it. You know. 340 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's worse to me. That is so much worse. 341 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: I'd rather they hate it and say so and write 342 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: screeds against me. Ignoring the arguments. Is that that's really 343 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: where they get into an echo chamber, and it leads 344 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: us to an echo chamber because we don't feel like 345 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: we're talking to them anymore. You know. Just one of 346 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: the things that my co host and my other show 347 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: normally Mary Katherine, him and I always say is that 348 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: we know everything about the left. We know all of 349 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: their opinions, we know everything they believe, and they know 350 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: so little about us it actually harms them. 351 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: It says a disparity because you can't watch TV, you 352 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: can't watch a movie on climate exactly. 353 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I can't go to synagogue without getting 354 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: a lecture on climate change. It's it's bad. 355 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: How do you you know? How do you feel? You know? 356 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: When you're writing how much you have to. I mean 357 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: one thing, when I wrote for The Times, you just 358 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: had to feel they and I've had to do this 359 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 2: very gently. I know you think this, and this seemed 360 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 2: really reasonable, but just just consider a couple things, you know, 361 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: and I like more city and maybe I should do it, 362 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 2: but the City Journal our audiences more he just you know, 363 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 2: But I always thought I was pulling my punches, you. 364 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 3: Know, whereas I someone Birklan could. 365 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 2: Just ramt and make you know as much as he wants. 366 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: You know, I remember that being your style, like the 367 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 1: very like I know you think this, but it's actually this, 368 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: you know. 369 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I you know. 370 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: I don't had to do that even with the Post's 371 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: audience at the beginning of COVID, because like you, I 372 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: very early, very early saw that the lockdowns were a problem. 373 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: I will admit that in March twenty twenty, I called 374 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: for schools to close because my husband had stopped going 375 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: to work. Everybody had stopped going to work, but the 376 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: schools were still open. It just made no sense. I 377 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: didn't realize that that nothing would ever make sense for 378 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: the next two years. But as soon as you know, 379 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: I saw that it wasn't going to be two weeks 380 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: I started calling for things to open, and of course 381 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: that meant I wanted people to die. Even among conservatives 382 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: and libertarians. I think people were not quite ready to 383 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: hear that. In April of twenty twenty, had to do 384 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: a little bit of like I take COVID seriously, but 385 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: you know, give us your five year out prediction. Could 386 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: be about the country, the world, music are anything. 387 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,959 Speaker 2: Well. I'm a real optimist. I mean, one of the 388 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: themes that I've written about is that if you look 389 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 2: at long term trends, everything's getting better now. You can 390 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 2: argue right now that polarization politics seems particularly ugly. I 391 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: think what's going on in politics now is that the 392 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: old elite is losing its grip, you know, on institutions, 393 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 2: and they're just splashing out. They're being violent, they're just 394 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 2: they want to cancel everyone. So but I think that 395 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 2: you know that they're I don't think they can stop it. 396 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 2: So so I think in that sense, it's wonderful that 397 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: there's so many more voices now and so much more freedom, 398 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 2: and I think it's going to be hard. I mean, 399 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: there are a lot of movements in Trump I don't 400 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 2: like some of the stuff he does as far as 401 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 2: expanding government power. But I think in general, it's very 402 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: hard to stop this because you know, there are places 403 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: all over the world it's very hard to acquatch that. 404 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 2: So that I think things will continue to get better. 405 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I worry about the deficit. I mean, I 406 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 2: think that's a problem, But in general, I think technology 407 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: and I'm very optimistic about AI. Well, I think things 408 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 2: are you know, life will continue to get better, people 409 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 2: will get richer, better educated, and so so I'm optimistic. 410 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 2: I just think things will get better. And I think 411 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: maybe the polarization, I don't know. I think as they 412 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: lose their grip, they might actually have to get a 413 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: little more sensible. I mean, the Democrats can't go on 414 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 2: with this craziness now. 415 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: They can't, and I hope Republicans don't follow them completely 416 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: down the crazy path, which you know, some Republicans definitely 417 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: seem like they might want to. Yeah, yeah, I agree, 418 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: it's getting better all the time. All signs are pointing up. 419 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: I think it's an extremely optimistic moment. Yeah, I'm with 420 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 1: you definitely. Well, I've loved this conversation. John, You are 421 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: really one of my all time favorites. Leave us here 422 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: with your best tip for my listeners on how they 423 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: can improve their lives. 424 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: I guess I would. I mean, in the book The 425 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: Power of the Bad, when we talked about the rule 426 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 2: of four that bad it has so much more impact 427 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 2: on you in every way, and that it takes four 428 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 2: good things to overcome a bad then, and I think 429 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 2: the main thing is, you know, and there's a thing 430 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 2: called positive illusions, and basically just focusing on the positive 431 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 2: will make your life so much better. Curating social media 432 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 2: so you're not just reading this negative stuff, you know, 433 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: be careful what you watch on mainstream media, and just 434 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 2: remember that, you know, there's so much more good, so 435 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 2: many more good things happening in the world and bad, 436 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: And yet our brain is wired to just focus on 437 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: the bad. Everybody always thinks the world's going to hell. 438 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 2: And there's like people who don't want to have kids today, 439 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 2: Like when is it ever a better time? 440 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 3: Right? 441 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: No, there is no better time. 442 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 2: I mean they used to half of them used to 443 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: die by I mean, so I just remember that things 444 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 2: are getting better, you know, and don't project your own 445 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 2: unhappiness under the world. 446 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, be an optimist and read The Power of Bad 447 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: It really did help me control negative thinking. I enjoyed 448 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,719 Speaker 1: that book a lot. He is John Tierney read him 449 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: at City Journal. Check out his two books, Will Power, 450 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: Rediscovering the greatest human strength and the power of Bad. 451 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: How the negativity effect rules us and how we can 452 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: rule it. Thank you so much, John. 453 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: Thank you. Cur had a great time.