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Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Annie and I'm Bridget, and this is stuff

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Speaker 1: Mom never told you, and I have a very important

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Speaker 1: question for you. Bridget. Okay, hit me. What kind of

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Speaker 1: toys did you like playing with when you were growing up?

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Speaker 1: I love this question. Probably my favorite toy was Polly Pocket,

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Speaker 1: remember those. Yes. I liked anything involving an intricate and

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Speaker 1: elaborate world. So I liked dollhouses, I liked anything. I

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Speaker 1: was obsessed with miniatures. Um, I liked easy bake oven okay,

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Speaker 1: your standard, your standard girl toys. I liked games. I

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Speaker 1: liked them. I was obsessed this game called dream Phone.

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Speaker 1: Basically how this game works with it has a plastic

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Speaker 1: cell phone, and you get clues about who the guy

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Speaker 1: is who has a crush on you from this phone.

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Speaker 1: Sold be like, he's not wearing a hat, and then

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Speaker 1: you have to be like, well, he's not wearing a hat,

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Speaker 1: so it's not Joe, it's not Dan, and you have

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Speaker 1: to like guess who it is via the process of elimination.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of like guess who know, only with

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Speaker 1: a romantic aspect. What I'm saying you now it sounds weird,

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Speaker 1: but you get it. Okay, Sure, I've never played that one,

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Speaker 1: but I would. I'll seek it out. What kind of

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Speaker 1: toys did you play with? Growing up? I loved my

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Speaker 1: little ponies and I had very looking back soap opera

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Speaker 1: storyline playing out where I had to lead ponies. One

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Speaker 1: was gold and one was silver. And the silver one

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Speaker 1: lived in a world of like legos and Lincoln logs,

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Speaker 1: and the gold one and um her whole crew. They

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Speaker 1: both had like their own set of ponies that lived

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Speaker 1: with them. She lived in um like hot wheels. Course,

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Speaker 1: hated each other, and they were always trying to undermine

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Speaker 1: what the other one was doing and overthrow there the society.

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Speaker 1: And looking back now that eventually the storyline reached a

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Speaker 1: point where it was revealed both of them were bad.

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Speaker 1: There was no good pony leader. And now I think

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Speaker 1: I must have at some point internalized some thoughts about

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Speaker 1: the two parties system. Oh that's deep, that's deep. Both

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Speaker 1: parties the same, Man, they're the same. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's just looking back, they already know who's gonna win.

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Speaker 1: You don't even have to vote, man, that was right,

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Speaker 1: bridget I was onto something with those my little ponies. Um,

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Speaker 1: but I also liked I inherited a lot of toys

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Speaker 1: from my brother, so I had a Drastic Park the

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Speaker 1: whole thing, and a Star Wars thing. Um. I loved

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Speaker 1: games as well, and I have a very funny story

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Speaker 1: about a Polly Pocket board game. Um. I was trying

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Speaker 1: to learn how to play the rule I was trying

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Speaker 1: to I was playing it by myself. Okay, bridget, let

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Speaker 1: me just get it out there. I was playing it

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Speaker 1: by myself to try to figure out the rules before

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Speaker 1: my friends came over. But I didn't realize that they

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Speaker 1: were already there and they were just watching me play this.

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Speaker 1: My favorite thing on this show is when you tell

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Speaker 1: really funny anecdotes about your childhood. It's like my very

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Speaker 1: favorite thing. I was horrified, and I tried to play

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Speaker 1: it off so cool, like, oh hey, just getting ready,

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Speaker 1: getting ready to play this polly Pocket. I was rehearsing

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Speaker 1: for a play yeah yeah, And no one bought it,

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Speaker 1: and the next day the rumors. Bridget the rumors. But

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Speaker 1: I'd also big, I'm playing outside. I loved playing outside.

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Speaker 1: All this to say, today we were talking about toys.

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Speaker 1: Toys are more important than you might think. For those

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Speaker 1: of you listening wondering to yourself. Why are they talking

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Speaker 1: about toys? UM. The imagine of playing kids use toys

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Speaker 1: for is really important to several things like UM creativity

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Speaker 1: and UM literacy, being able to see something from someone

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Speaker 1: else's point of view, being able to create these storylines

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Speaker 1: with these ponies that hate each other, and one of

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Speaker 1: them cuts off the other one's hair, and then the

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Speaker 1: other one throws fingernail polished on the other one, and

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Speaker 1: it was just a nightmare. Bridget Dramatic told you. I

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Speaker 1: told you, it got intense. And if you think about it, UM,

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Speaker 1: if we're putting kids into this box, because today we're

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Speaker 1: kind of talking about gendered toys and gendered marketing of

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Speaker 1: toys at an early age, then it can be important

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Speaker 1: if you think about why more women aren't in STEM

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Speaker 1: fields because the toys were marketing to them are saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: you want to be a princess, get married and baked

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Speaker 1: this cake for him. This is this is fun, right,

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Speaker 1: this is what you want. Meanwhile, boys are getting these

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Speaker 1: kind of engineering or building toys that UM studies have

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Speaker 1: shown toys like that UM increase your mental flexibility and

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Speaker 1: your engineering skills. So it's it's important. Toys are important.

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Speaker 1: UM and also we should say right at the front,

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Speaker 1: gender marketing is bad for everyone, not just for little

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Speaker 1: girls little boys, for everyone in between. It ignores a

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Speaker 1: lot of people. It ignores non binary folks. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people are left out of the conversation when you say, boy, girl,

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Speaker 1: check this box. Yeah, when you go to McDonald's and

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Speaker 1: they say do you want a happy meal for a

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Speaker 1: girl or a boy? That leaves out a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of folks. And I think it's just not necessary. You know.

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Speaker 1: I once saw this meme floating around where it was

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Speaker 1: a like a flow chart of when you need to

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Speaker 1: get a gender toy. And the question first question is

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Speaker 1: do you operate this toy with your genitals? The answer

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Speaker 1: is no, it doesn't matter, answer is yes, it is

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Speaker 1: not a toy for children. It was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: the fact that they're gendered in the first place, it's

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Speaker 1: very strange. And I mentioned at the top of the

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Speaker 1: episodes that I loved easy bake ovens, and I love

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Speaker 1: to cook now and I loved I left playing within

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Speaker 1: the kitchen, you know, making messes with flour and all that.

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Speaker 1: Um So I loved easy bake oven But women are

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Speaker 1: not the only people who need to know how to cook.

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Speaker 1: Cooking is a fun skill for everybody. And if we say, oh,

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Speaker 1: kitchen play sets and easy bake ovens, those are for girls.

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Speaker 1: Those are not for little boys. What does that tell

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Speaker 1: a little boy? Who? Right? So, not only does it

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Speaker 1: erase a lot of folks, but it also gives boys

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Speaker 1: the message that this thing is for women and that

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Speaker 1: you don't need to do that. And it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it could be stifling an entire creative aspiration that someone

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Speaker 1: has by telling them this is not for you. Right.

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Speaker 1: And one particular aspect we're gonna be talking about today

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Speaker 1: is action figures because budget summer blockbusters season is coming,

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Speaker 1: and um, it may surprise you or it probably won't.

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Speaker 1: But it surprised me um that big bunchet movies like

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Speaker 1: Star Wars and The Avengers often make more money from

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Speaker 1: merchandise and toys than from ticket sales. Wow, I didn't

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Speaker 1: know that. I did have a moment when I was

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Speaker 1: watching the last Star Wars where I kind of thought,

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Speaker 1: this is sort of a big commercial for like Star

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Speaker 1: Wars legos. Is it not that I didn't like it,

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Speaker 1: I just had a weird moment of realization. Perhaps, um,

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Speaker 1: in Warner Brothers made six point five billion with a

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Speaker 1: B from licensed sales of these big brand products like

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Speaker 1: Harry Potter in their case, UM and Disney four D

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Speaker 1: one billion dollars from licensed sales. And yeah, so toys

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Speaker 1: and the cell of them have become increasingly largely due

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Speaker 1: to movies and television tie ins. Um. They play a

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Speaker 1: role in creative decisions of what movies get made or

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Speaker 1: how to how to how to make the movie. Even

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Speaker 1: in the biggest toy property of the year was Star Wars,

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Speaker 1: and that franchise by itself sold seven hundred million dollars. Well,

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Speaker 1: that just goes to show you how important and how

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Speaker 1: impactful toy sales actually are when you think about movies.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea that toy sales with the thing

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Speaker 1: that was really generating all this money. Yeah I didn't either. Um.

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Speaker 1: And because toy sales are going up, and because these

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Speaker 1: marketing tie ins with movies and TV or playing such

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Speaker 1: a big role, more and more studios, movie studios or

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Speaker 1: production studios are making creative decisions based on what action

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Speaker 1: figures they think will sell and in their mind that

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Speaker 1: is not female action figures. Well, I'm just gonna ask

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Speaker 1: in their mind. What figures are they? There? Pretty much

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Speaker 1: your standard white, white male hero. Um. We see this

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Speaker 1: argument all the time, not just with toys. Studios don't

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Speaker 1: make action movies with women as the main character because

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Speaker 1: people don't buy tickets to those movies. I'm not true,

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Speaker 1: but that's an argument that you hear video games with

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Speaker 1: women as well. You don't sell kids, don't want female

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Speaker 1: action figures. Um, but this Scott is wondering, is that true? Well,

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Speaker 1: we've got the answer for you. Is it true? Um? No,

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Speaker 1: it is not true, but it is more complicated than perhaps,

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Speaker 1: just know that it is not true. Over the past

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Speaker 1: few years, there have been several high profile cases of

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Speaker 1: companies leaving out female action figures. You might remember them

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Speaker 1: by their hashtags. You've got hashtag Where's Ray? In response

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Speaker 1: to the action figures released or not released for Star

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Speaker 1: Wars The Force Awakens. Despite being the most obvious main character,

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Speaker 1: Ray was not included in a lot of toys and merchandizing,

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Speaker 1: and she was missing from a box set that included

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Speaker 1: Finn Poe, Chewbacca, random Stormtrooper, and a random time fighter.

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Speaker 1: More important than right, they don't even get I mean

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Speaker 1: these random throwaway characters get top billing over arguably the

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Speaker 1: main character. That's right, it doesn't even make any sense. No. Um.

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Speaker 1: And the same issue popped up in a box set

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Speaker 1: for the animated series Star Wars. Rebels were to the

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Speaker 1: main female characters were absent, but you could get a

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Speaker 1: storm Trooper or a clone trooper. Yeah. It's interesting when

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Speaker 1: characters that don't even have names don't into their faces, Like, wait,

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Speaker 1: do you you don't see stormtroopers faces? Well, not generally no. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So characters that you don't even see their faces get

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Speaker 1: top billing over characters who are the entire movie, like

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Speaker 1: they're they're like the biggest part. Yeah, she was if

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Speaker 1: you remember the posters, she was the central character, the

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Speaker 1: largest character. Um, she wasn't even In the addition of

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Speaker 1: Star Wars Monopoly, which if I remember quickly, was divided

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Speaker 1: in between light Side and dark Side, and it had Luke,

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Speaker 1: Skywalker and Finn on the light side and Kyler, Ren

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Speaker 1: and Darth Vader on the dark side. And um Hasbro,

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Speaker 1: who is the maker of Monopoly, claimed that having Ray

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Speaker 1: would have spoiled a key plotline, including her in it. Um,

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Speaker 1: do you buy that? No? Are you surprised rigid. I

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Speaker 1: don't buy it. She was the main person in the trailers,

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Speaker 1: the main person on the poster, and also for talking

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Speaker 1: good versus evil. I don't want to spoil it for anybody,

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Speaker 1: but Finn was the bigger spoiler. He was a storm

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Speaker 1: trooper who knows he could have gone either way before

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Speaker 1: the movie came out, right, But yeah, Hasbro didn't want to.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to say either way. The director of

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Speaker 1: Star Wars Force awakens J. J. Abrams M who I

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Speaker 1: once had a dream his name meant money. Wait, so

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Speaker 1: Abrams was a unit of currency. Yeah, J. J. Abrams

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Speaker 1: and specific the whole name. He denounced the exclusion himself,

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Speaker 1: and because of the backlash, Disney, which now owns Star Wars,

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Speaker 1: um in gase she missed the memo on that one

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Speaker 1: released a series of merchandise featuring female characters Ray Jin

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Speaker 1: and Leah, who you couldn't get until a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: Princess Leia. She's an icon iconic. Okay, So I actually

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Speaker 1: loved this letter from an eight year old girl who

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Speaker 1: wrote to Hasbro basically shaking her tiny fist at them

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Speaker 1: about Rai's absence. She writes, without her, there is no

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Speaker 1: Force awakens all caps, so cute. I love that she

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Speaker 1: said such a such a and it was color coding. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I love this kid, friend of the show. I hope so,

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Speaker 1: I think so she says it awakens in her Hasbital

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Speaker 1: gave a very clunky business non response to her letter

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Speaker 1: and basically said, well, she's in the games and we'll

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Speaker 1: make more toys. They kind of directed her to these

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Speaker 1: other games she's in and you know eventually she'll yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll put her in other things. Don't worry about it. Um.

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Speaker 1: But this, this is a great example that the demand,

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Speaker 1: the demand for a Ray action figure was there, and

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Speaker 1: the toy sellers didn't have it. Um. And I said

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Speaker 1: at the beginning, Star Wars was the biggest property of

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Speaker 1: the year, and imagine how much more their profits could

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Speaker 1: have been if they had had that action figure that

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Speaker 1: people were asking for exactly. I think as women, we

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Speaker 1: often are so thirsting to see our stories reflected that

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Speaker 1: when we get a thoughtful depiction of those stories, we

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Speaker 1: flocked to it and it makes tons of money. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I think that there are enough little girls

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Speaker 1: out there who would have wanted to see that action figure,

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Speaker 1: and having that would have been a big deal for them,

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Speaker 1: and they it just seems like they missed out on

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Speaker 1: money by doubling down on sexism. Yeah. I remember reading

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Speaker 1: an article from one of the toy sellers and he said, basically,

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Speaker 1: they made a big gamble that Kylo Wren was gonna

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Speaker 1: be the big breakout character, and so they made a

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Speaker 1: ton of him. But then everybody wanted Ray and they

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Speaker 1: just made the wrong gamble. Um. And we can't forget

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Speaker 1: another another hashtag, Where's Natasha? And this is all about um.

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Speaker 1: When the Avengers Age of Ultron came out, the female

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Speaker 1: character of the team, Black Widow, did not get her

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Speaker 1: own action figuring. It was particularly a big deal because

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Speaker 1: there was a an action set that was depicting one

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Speaker 1: of her key scenes, a very popular scene where she

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Speaker 1: comes out of this helicopter transport on a motorcycle. Very cool. Um.

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Speaker 1: This action figure set replaced her with Captain America. And

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Speaker 1: all is he in the scene? He's in the scene.

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Speaker 1: That's not he's like far away doing something else. He's

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Speaker 1: like he's like tying a shoe with the scene he's

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Speaker 1: fighting Ultron, if I remember correctly, But he's far away.

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Speaker 1: She's doing her own cool thing and Um. All the

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Speaker 1: male characters the team also got their own T shirt,

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Speaker 1: but Black Widow did not. And um, I am wearing

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Speaker 1: my Avengers T shirt. I was gonna say, any you're

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Speaker 1: like dressed to impress today, you're wearing your Black Widow shirt. Well,

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Speaker 1: she's not there. I I found the shirt. Yeah, look

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Speaker 1: where is she? She's not there. This must be very

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Speaker 1: fun visual for people. We can't see it, so trust me.

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Speaker 1: And he's wearing a shirt that you would imagine Black

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Speaker 1: Widow would be in the mix on. You got Captain America,

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Speaker 1: you got the whole Spider Man, the whole team. There.

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Speaker 1: Where is she? She's not there? Um. But there were

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Speaker 1: these other Avengers shirts that came out for boys that said, um,

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Speaker 1: be a hero, and the shirts that came out for

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Speaker 1: girls said well, essentially it said I need a hero

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Speaker 1: or I only kiss heroes. That's gross. I know, it's

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Speaker 1: like for eight year olds. There was a young kid.

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Speaker 1: Is that's gross. Yeah. There's a whole tumbler called but

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Speaker 1: Not Black Widow dedicated to finding instances of her left

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Speaker 1: out of merchandizing. And I went through it and it's

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Speaker 1: both very funny and very depressing. Oh and if you're

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Speaker 1: writing an email, but what about how guy don't do it? Um?

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Speaker 1: Because yes, well, he does have less merchandise than the

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Speaker 1: other Avengers. He has more merchandise than Black Widow despite

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Speaker 1: having less screen time. And on top of that, his

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Speaker 1: relative omission is not a problem the same way that

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Speaker 1: Black Widow is, because there are a lot of white

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Speaker 1: dude action figures that have kind of a similar story

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Speaker 1: that you could buy and that's not so with Black Widow.

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Speaker 1: Or while we're talking about it, Falcon as well. And um,

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Speaker 1: it is true that in the comics and some of

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Speaker 1: the comics he's deaf, and if that were true in

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Speaker 1: popular media, then yes, this would be the same kind

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Speaker 1: of problem, but it isn't. I like him to all

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Speaker 1: for more Hawkeye merchandise, but it's not the same level

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Speaker 1: of problem. Just putting that out there, Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to note that because yeah, you already get

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Speaker 1: his story kind of reflected in the other characters. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: Black Widow's story is not reflected in the same way.

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Speaker 1: So it's not the same level of being left out

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Speaker 1: when your identity is sort of already depicted in other

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Speaker 1: ways in a way that hers is not. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: and this whole thing follows dust steps surrounding Iron Man three.

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Speaker 1: According to the movie's director Shane Black, the original script

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Speaker 1: was written with a female villain, but the studio vetoed

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Speaker 1: that decision, telling black toys won't sell as well if

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Speaker 1: it's female. Not only was the villain recast as male

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Speaker 1: because of toys toys sales, mind you, um, but other

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Speaker 1: the other two female characters got their screen time reduced.

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Speaker 1: So this is a pretty serious influence these toys are having.

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Speaker 1: That's wild. So they went back and like basically restructured

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Speaker 1: this whole movie based around projected toy sales, yes, um, allegedly.

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Speaker 1: And I read a very snarky comment about it somewhere

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Speaker 1: because the villain they ended up going with this Guy Peers,

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Speaker 1: and I like Guy Peers. But somebody was like, good

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Speaker 1: thing that all those people got their Guy Peers Fireman

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Speaker 1: three villain dolls. Sure they were a top seller there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's just so so many instances of this, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about even more after a quick break

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Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank

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Speaker 1: you sponsor. Yeah, And we were talking about this, this

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Speaker 1: problem of um, this idea that girl toys don't sell

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Speaker 1: as well as boy toys. And we found this interview

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Speaker 1: with Kevin Smith, do you want to talk about a bridget? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I found this interview to be pretty too pressing if

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Speaker 1: you want to know the truth. He was an interview

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Speaker 1: that Kevin Smith did on his podcast Fatman on Batman.

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Speaker 1: Clever name was television producer Paul Deanie. Basically, Deanie really

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Speaker 1: echoed this point that we were making earlier about young

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Speaker 1: girls and action figures. He said that executives don't want

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Speaker 1: girls watching these shows because they don't buy toys. We

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Speaker 1: need boys, but we need girls right there, right one

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Speaker 1: step behind the boys. This is the network talking one

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Speaker 1: step behind the boys. Not as smart as the boys,

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Speaker 1: not as interesting as the boys, but still right there.

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Speaker 1: And really, that to me is demonstrated and the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that you were just talking about, where the

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Speaker 1: women characters are there, but they're kind of one step behind.

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Speaker 1: And as depressing as it is, I see that in

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Speaker 1: so many films where there is a woman character, but

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Speaker 1: she doesn't have the coolest lines or the coolest plot

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Speaker 1: line or the coolest story. She's just sort of there

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Speaker 1: in the mix. And I see that reflected both in

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Speaker 1: the films and then in how these toys are you know,

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Speaker 1: made or not made? Because they're saying, I mean, Deanie says,

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Speaker 1: these executives things that boys are the ones who are buying,

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Speaker 1: you know, little fidget tops, but they're also buying action

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Speaker 1: figures girls by princesses. We're not selling princesses. And really

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Speaker 1: it kind of becomes the self fulfilling prophecy where because

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Speaker 1: executives think girls aren't gonna buy these toys, they don't

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Speaker 1: make the toys, and thus girls don't buy them because

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Speaker 1: they don't exist, and so it just becomes this this

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Speaker 1: cycle of girls not seeing themselves reflected in this merchandise. Right,

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Speaker 1: and Um, to go back to what you're saying for

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Speaker 1: a bit about the female characters there, but she's kind

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Speaker 1: of one step behind. Um. There's a poster of the

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Speaker 1: The Avengers where every all the male characters are in

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Speaker 1: this tough pose with their weapons or their fists, getting

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Speaker 1: ready to fight, and Black Widow is the only character

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Speaker 1: that's not facing towards towards the audience. She's looking at

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Speaker 1: her phone. She's like, so you can see her her

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Speaker 1: ass and she's in a very pin uppy position. And

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Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of the arts, but he

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Speaker 1: did kind of a rendition of it making fun of

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Speaker 1: it where he had her facing um In looking all

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Speaker 1: badass and tough with her her history and a fighting

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Speaker 1: position all the male characters but there. But I like it.

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Speaker 1: That's true. It really goes to demonstrate what they're talking

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Speaker 1: about in this interview where she's just sort of an accessory.

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Speaker 1: And again, one of the reasons why this is so

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Speaker 1: troubling is that as young girls grow up, they start

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Speaker 1: to see themselves as the side characters in their own story,

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Speaker 1: Like they can't be the protagonist of their own life,

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Speaker 1: their own story. It will always sort of be the

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Speaker 1: accessory with their ass out. Nothing wrong with having your

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Speaker 1: ass out, hey do you? But that shouldn't be the

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Speaker 1: only way that you're allowed to be in the mix

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Speaker 1: and these kinds of stories, right, um And there's another

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Speaker 1: instance of Go Mora, the only female character of Guardians

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Speaker 1: of the Galaxy, or at least the first one, wasn't

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Speaker 1: featured in that superhero set of action figures. Either. You

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Speaker 1: could get more expensive collectible one separately that was not

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Speaker 1: widely available and not really four kids like for collecting

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Speaker 1: um and up Rocks found the Guardians of the Galaxy

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Speaker 1: t shirt at Children's Palace that featured the entire team

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Speaker 1: minus camera and the team and up Rocks emailed them

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Speaker 1: about it, and Children's Palace responded with the Guardians of

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Speaker 1: the Galaxy shirt in particular is a boy's shirt, which

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Speaker 1: is why it does not include that the female character Gomera.

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Speaker 1: So I guess we can't have any characters of the

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Speaker 1: opposite sexy back to the shirt that people can't see.

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Speaker 1: You are wearing a shirt that has five, yeah, five

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Speaker 1: male characters on it, and so what I mean? Also,

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Speaker 1: I just had a moment of clarity. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: fictional characters who don't actually exist. What's going on? These

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Speaker 1: people are real everything. The whole damn system is wrong.

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Speaker 1: And also, yeah, are we that gender binaries? It this

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Speaker 1: or this? And the answer seems to be in this

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Speaker 1: world of toys and merchandise and many other realms, yes,

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Speaker 1: yes we are. But I want to note, um Guardians

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Speaker 1: of the Galaxy opening weekend women accounted for of ticket sales.

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Speaker 1: And I will say for that particular movie, because it

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Speaker 1: was kind of strange, it was a bit of a

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Speaker 1: hard sell, even though it turned out to be. I thought,

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Speaker 1: pretty lovely, that's pretty high. That's that's a lot of

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Speaker 1: women are females or girls that you're ignoring. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think that takes us back to the episode we did

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Speaker 1: around Final Girl, that trope and horror movies where people

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Speaker 1: assume a women are buying tickets to this who cares

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Speaker 1: how they're depicted it. They're not going to see this

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Speaker 1: movie anyway, or if they do, they're gonna be dragged

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Speaker 1: along by their boyfriend other husband, And the numbers don't

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Speaker 1: actually bear that out sometimes, but yet they're still acting

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Speaker 1: as if that's the case. I know, we're still operating

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Speaker 1: on this strange assumption that women don't go to see movies. Um.

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Speaker 1: And there is an essay that a former Marvel employee

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Speaker 1: wrote in and and then she pretty much said the

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Speaker 1: higher ups at Disney don't care about the female market

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Speaker 1: for Marvel products. They differentiated between actual demographics and desired demographics,

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Speaker 1: which you guessed it is for boys. Boys buy more toys,

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Speaker 1: is the thinking, or more superhero toys. And Disney already

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Speaker 1: has the princess lineup, so in their head they don't

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Speaker 1: need to worry about selling anything else to girls. Girls

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Speaker 1: are buying these princess they don't They don't need to

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Speaker 1: market superheroes to girls. They have that market. So from

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Speaker 1: a business standpoint, part of me can kind of understand that.

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Speaker 1: But here's why that doesn't fly. Wouldn't you as seem

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Speaker 1: that a company like Disney would just want to get

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Speaker 1: as many profits as they could And even if girls

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Speaker 1: were already buying princess stuff like Gangbusters, which apparently they are,

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Speaker 1: if you could have a new market that gets more

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Speaker 1: girls who maybe aren't interested in princess a pail Princess

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Speaker 1: South buying your stuff, wouldn't you want that? Yeah? I

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Speaker 1: would think so. I mean it just seems like a

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Speaker 1: choy he said, is like do you care more about

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Speaker 1: profits or sexism? It's like it's so important to push

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Speaker 1: this gendered binary of who plays with what we will

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Speaker 1: miss out on what could be more profits. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: according to this letter from the Marvel employee, Disney bought

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Speaker 1: Star Wars and Marvel just to sell more toys to boys.

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Speaker 1: That was their business thinking. They made these huge business

426
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: business decisions. Um. And the problem also has to do

427
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: with how licensing works. So here comes the brief reef

428
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: paw Licensing works licensing Marvel toys is expensive and the

429
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: contract is typically several years long, and for a lot

430
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: of toys, there's a very small window of popularity. So

431
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: the licensees wants something that's a guarantee. If you've got

432
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: princesses as a guarantee for the girl toy demographic, superheroes

433
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: for the boys, then there's this undercurrent of girl action

434
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: figures don't sell. Yeah, they're not going to make those toys.

435
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: It's kind of this gambling. Yeah, they're betting on the

436
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: surefire what they think is the surefire thing. Yeah. It's

437
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: like it's exactly like what you were saying with the

438
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: whole Kylo Ren thing, where they just assumed Kylo Ren

439
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: is going to be the standout protagonist of this film. Therefore,

440
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: based on that assumption, let's gamble on making a ton

441
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 1: of Kylo Ren toys. Ray, we don't need to make

442
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: her a toy because people are going to buy it.

443
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: And from a business standpoint, it sounds like they really

444
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: take a gamble on things, and whether or not those

445
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: things actually come to fruition, they kind of go down

446
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 1: with the ship. And so they say, maybe girls would

447
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: buy these toys. We'll never know because we're never going

448
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 1: to invest in finding out right. And first, it's very

449
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: interesting that you called Kylo Ren a protagonist because who knows?

450
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: But is it not? No, no, we honestly don't know.

451
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: He's he's set up to be the villain, but probably

452
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: is going to be good. It's it's all open the

453
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: air spoiler alert. Yeah, he's pretty like Darth Vader. He

454
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: really wants to be Darth Vader. If you never seen

455
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: any Star Wars, that doesn't mean anything to you anyway,

456
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: he is okay, good, good, good. Then you describe some

457
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: Star Trek character and you have to throw you out

458
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: of the studio and say, I'm a little bit nervous.

459
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm going to get a lot of

460
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: Oh jeez, I probably will too. And I know this

461
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: stuff that wearing the shirt, that's the nature of the beast.

462
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: I go to Dragon Gun every year. I dress up

463
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: as these characters. I've got a pretty badass Winter Soldier

464
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: outfit that I made. But I still that's a whole

465
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: another episode of like having to prove your fandom. Wait, question,

466
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: what do you think it is harder to get right?

467
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: Like the language of like being a social change feminist

468
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: or the language of nerdy culture stuff. Oh and on

469
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: this podcast, we're kind of walking a lot on both.

470
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: We know we are really asking for it now angry,

471
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: just like anger responses from everyone might get anger. Yeah,

472
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 1: pretty much, That's that's what we strive for here. Um. Oh,

473
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: here's here's something that sure to make people angry, but

474
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: I thought was worth mentioning flavor Wires. Sarah Seltzer says

475
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: that toxic masculinity is part of the problem here. Um,

476
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: and here's a quote from her Little boys, you see

477
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 1: are assumed to be disdainful of dolls because it makes

478
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: them up here, sissy are gay? Are you know? Caring? Compassionate, tender,

479
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: and other terrifying qualities? And that dated, foolish and problematic

480
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: taboo around boys and dolls, conscious or not, might well

481
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: be deemed by the toymakers more important than the yearning

482
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: that little girls might feel to play with a toy

483
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: that looks like them. And there's so much about that

484
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: that makes me very angry. Yeah, because I think that

485
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: that that quote really gets that this sort of existential

486
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: problem I have with this whole conversation is that they

487
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: have made a business choice that upholding this kind of

488
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: toxic idea that says that boys don't want to play with,

489
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: you know, baby dolls or be caring, and that that's

490
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: an important and important enough social construct to uphold that

491
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: even if you have to uphold that construct at the

492
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: behest of you know, profits, or at the behest of

493
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: all the little girls who yearn to see themselves reflected

494
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: both on screen and in merchandise. If that means making

495
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: that choice at the behest of those things, so be it.

496
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm making sense, but it just

497
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: seems like a really existential or maybe philosophical decision, and

498
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: it goes to show what we value and what we

499
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: don't value. And I my thinking is companies are number one.

500
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: Value is money. But this tells me that that that

501
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: something else is going on as well, that you would

502
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: that maybe is a bit surprising. And all of this

503
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: brings up the question of gendered marketing um that has

504
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: been in the news a lot lately. Actually um. But

505
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: first it brings us to quick break for a word

506
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and we're back, thank you sponsor. Okay, So,

507
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: if you visit any given toy store, you're probably going

508
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: to find an action packed boys section and a pink

509
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 1: princessy girls section. And this is kind of interesting when

510
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: you think about it, because, like you were saying, Bridget,

511
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: why would you try to sell something to only half

512
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: of the toy buying population. Um. I remember reading vaguely

513
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: that the reason we do this, that we have blue

514
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: for boys and pink for girls, was a marketing decision

515
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: to minimize hand me downs, like you're supposed to switch

516
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: it out every fifty years or so so that people

517
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: can't just not buy things. That's interesting because if you

518
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: bought a bunch of ungendered toys and everyone displays with everything,

519
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: and it's not you know this, get this goes to

520
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: your rather sister. I have considered that. Yeah, Um, and

521
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: I kind of I wonder if this is the case

522
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: here too, to some extent, that you're trying to minimize

523
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: this hand me down nature. I don't know. I I

524
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,959
Speaker 1: liked my brother's hand me downs. If I had had

525
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: a sister out of liked her hand me downs to

526
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: any any toy coming my way was probably okay with me. Um.

527
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: Gendered marketing has been has become more aggressive in recent years.

528
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: Two percent of the ads in the nineteen Sears catalog

529
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: were gender targeted, but that number was fifty percent, so

530
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: it's gotten worse. Um. And this isn't limited to brick

531
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: and mortar stores. Most online toy sellers have a four

532
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: boys section that you can check or a four girls section,

533
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: and the Toy Industry Association even hands out awards for

534
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: Boy Toy of the Year and Girls Toy of the Year. Wow.

535
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: First of all, who knew that that toy makers had

536
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: their own like Grammys. I'm sure it's quite the party. Yeah, oh,

537
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: you know, it's probably toys everywhere. Now I want to go.

538
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: I really have all kinds of like sweet toys you've

539
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: never even heard of. They'll never have us, It's true. Yeah.

540
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: I have to say. One of my biggest pet peeves

541
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: when it comes to the gendered marketing of toys is

542
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: toys in a traditional sense do not need to be gendered. Right, so,

543
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: no toy needs to be gendered in general, but toys

544
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: that like a wagon where it's you know, a blue

545
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: wagon with a firefighter hat on it, and then a

546
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: pink wagon when it's the same thing, and they make

547
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: two different versions of it, and it just boggles my

548
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: mind why you would need to have it be you know, look,

549
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: a certain way for a girl child, and then look

550
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: a different way for a boy child, and the functionality

551
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: is still the same. I don't want to make it

552
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: sound like I'm I'm ranting on little girls who like

553
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: princess stuff, because I was definitely the little girl who

554
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: liked princess stuff. Um had a I had, you know,

555
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: pink streamers on my bike, that kind of thing. Yeah,

556
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: But I guess what I'm saying is that I think

557
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: kids will like anything that's marketed to kids if it's

558
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: brightly colored. I don't think it needs to be explicitly

559
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: for girls or for boys to get little kids to

560
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: play with it. And I think if we, if we

561
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: as adults act like that's the case, that things that

562
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: are sparkly painting pretty for girls and blue firefighter for

563
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: boys or whatever, like we're sending them the wrong method.

564
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: And I don't think that kids just like things that

565
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: are for kids. Like you were saying that you were

566
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: just kind of happy to get a toy, and that

567
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: if you knew that this is like, this is like

568
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: a toy for a kid, you would be happy to

569
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: get it, whether it was from your brother or from

570
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: your I guess you don't have a sister, but I did. Yeah, yeah,

571
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: well that was one of the interesting examples I ran

572
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: across as dinosaurs, because dinosaurs are always included in the

573
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: boys section. There's nothing inherently gendered about dinosaurs, like they're

574
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: not blue. You know, if they were in the girls

575
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: section in theory, they could sell just as well. They're

576
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: just seen as this boy thing. Um In drastic World,

577
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: they were a big uptick of dinosaurs, sale of dinosaurs,

578
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: and they thought that maybe um girls were buying them too,

579
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: And what would let mean? Oh my goodness. I found

580
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: a lot of articles about it. Actually, But let's let's

581
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: back up the Tonka truck a bit selling it two

582
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: boys and girls separately. Sorry, I just got that joke.

583
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: She's made my days. She's laughing at me. That was

584
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: I see what you did there, That was nice. I

585
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: love this. I wish you would follow me around and

586
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 1: laugh at all my lave of jokes. Maybe I will. Okay, okay,

587
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: um okay. So selling to boys and girls separately got

588
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: its start when department stores did from the nine twenties

589
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: to the nineteen sixties, when toys for girls consisted mostly

590
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: of kitchen, home or child rearing type things and toys

591
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: for boys were all about construction and building. Um oh,

592
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: and here's this hears ad for a broom and mop

593
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: set for girls from m Mother's Here is a real

594
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: practical toy for little girls. Every little girl likes to

595
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: play house, to sweep, and to do mother's work for her. Don't, well,

596
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: it's the time of our lives when we're kids. Meanwhile,

597
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: and add targeted two boys from that same year, read

598
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: every boy likes to tinker around and to try to

599
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: build things. With an erector set. He can satisfy this

600
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: inclination and gain mental development without apparent effort. He will

601
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: learn the fundamentals of engineering. That is very different. That

602
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: is very different. And also, I mean so to a

603
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: couple of things about that one. Learning the fundamentals of

604
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,399
Speaker 1: engineering sounds a hell of a whole lot more fun

605
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: than mopping the floor. But I will say, when I

606
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: was a kid, I did this this miniature toy vacuum

607
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: that I don't like. I don't think it was a toy. Actually,

608
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: I think it might have been like an actual vacuum.

609
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: My mom was like, here's a toy. It was like

610
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: a dustbuster. I think I was just being tricked into cleaning.

611
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: I think so verg I think, yeah, just using you

612
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: to my one of my good friends, she just had

613
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: her sister just had a baby, and he's the cutest thing.

614
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: But one of his favorite toys is their swiffer. And

615
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: so they've rigged up a little swiffer, like a like

616
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: a tiny version that they've like somehow made the handle shorter.

617
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: And his favorite thing is to run around the house

618
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: with a swiffer. And I'm thinking one day he's going

619
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: to be like a very effective member of his household. Oh,

620
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: I hope. So, I guess there is something satisfying about it.

621
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: I had a toy that you would feed it and

622
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: then it would pee like it had a diaper, and

623
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: somehow it would like leak baby alive. Yeah, I had

624
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: that same baby. So basically, you you came with a

625
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: bottle that you put water into. You it had a

626
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: hole in its mouth and so you basically were pouring

627
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: water into the mouth the whole. I don't I don't

628
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 1: know how the functionality of the toy works, but my

629
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: understanding is that the whole went through the baby into

630
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: like I guess the vagina of the baby, and that

631
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: it wore a diaper. And then the water would pour

632
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: out and then you change the diaper like that, that's

633
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: the fun part of the toy. I never thought it

634
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,919
Speaker 1: was fun. You don't find the idea of a child,

635
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: an infant wedding themselves and then you have to take

636
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: care of it to be funny. I guess I'm a

637
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: terrible version. And I don't know. I really did not

638
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: enjoy it. I like hit it away. Um okay, so

639
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: back to back to the history of gendered marketing. Um.

640
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: Once women started entering the workplace in greater numbers in

641
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 1: the seventies, gendered marketing did die down a bit. But

642
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: then in a decision in the United States to ease

643
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: the regulations on television shows aimed at kids lead to

644
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 1: all of these toys getting their own shows are really

645
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: half hour long advertisements, like if you think of Transformers,

646
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: which my goodness, this is now what five movies. It's

647
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: a franchise, but they're like action movies. Yeah, those like

648
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 1: it went from being like those toys became like media moguls.

649
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: They're like, we're gonna have you know how like Oprah

650
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: it has like Oprah the show, open the magazine. We're

651
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: gonna have Megatron the magazine a couple of years, like

652
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: the way that they went from just toys to a

653
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: cartoon to a big budget action film with a list actors.

654
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's gonna be Megatron the podcast. They're gonna

655
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: be at how stuff works with a film podcasts. You're

656
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 1: gonna put us out of business. They really might. I mean,

657
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: look look how successful they been. That's true. They also

658
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: have a ride that I do love at Universal Studios,

659
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: and I was waiting in line for it once and

660
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: Megatron came up to me and he said, for the

661
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: sake of humanity, I must go now, and then he

662
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: just walked away, and it was a very bizarre moment.

663
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: I mean, he walked away. I appreciate that he's a

664
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: he's the evil villain. I would think that Megatron would

665
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: be really down to earth. No, no, well that's kind

666
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: of a weird pun because they're aliens. You're like knocking

667
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: it out of the park with your jokes today, Bridget,

668
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: you are the best anytime I do. If I ever

669
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: do stand over improv, I'm inviting you and I want

670
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 1: you to be in the front row and no one

671
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 1: else is laughing. That is all I need. Another good

672
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: example that it's not successful in the same scale, but

673
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: G I. Joe, which does also have its own feature

674
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 1: link action movies as well too. Um and the success

675
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: of Disney's Princesses along with Barbie further solidified this gender divide.

676
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: And I do have a quick note about Barbie that

677
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: I had to throw in here. Her full name is

678
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: Barbie Middlicent Roberts, and she was first available in her

679
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: appearance was inspired by the German lily doll, which was

680
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,399
Speaker 1: sort of a sex joke gift you'd give to another dude,

681
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: but children started playing with them. And then one thing

682
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: lent to another huge, huge company toy for girls inspired

683
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: by a sex little sex gift. Well that is when

684
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: they goes to show the lack of thought put into

685
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: toys for girls that this throwaway gag gift for men.

686
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: Little girls started playing with it, so now it's a toy.

687
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: Like interesting how barb is such an iconic toy, but

688
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: it started as a joke get that wasn't even for kids, right, Um,

689
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: And I guess that brings us to this point. It

690
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: turns out people do buy action female action female figures,

691
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: female action figures. UM sales of female action figures sold

692
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: more in the years from than they had in the

693
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: entire past decade. After Wonder Woman came out, sales of

694
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 1: Wonder Woman merchandise was estimated to reach five hundred million

695
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: to one billion dollars. Yeah. A couple of years back,

696
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: when the all female Ghostbusters came out, sales of the

697
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: corresponding action figures exceeded expectations. And that's a quote from

698
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: the company that made them, mattel Um for both boys

699
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 1: and girls. It wasn't just girls buying these action figures.

700
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: In DC released a line of female superhero girls. And

701
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: this is still problematic and that it markets specifically to girls,

702
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: but it is a start of saying that they're you know,

703
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: fighting poses your action figures they have female We still

704
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: have so far, so far to go, but that is something, Yeah,

705
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: I think that's that's positive. I mean, we definitely have

706
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: a long way to go, but something that gives a

707
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 1: nod to the fact that there are little girls out

708
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: there that want to see themselves in these ways and

709
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: think of themselves as you know, like I said that

710
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: the action heroes of their own life and their own

711
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: stories and and give them that permission to do that.

712
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 1: I think that's important. I think any step in that

713
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: direction is good. Yeah, and this is not just we

714
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: shouldn't just settle for sales of white lady action figures,

715
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 1: because I believe, don't you have an Ava DuVernay Barbie?

716
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: I do have an Avadarie sold out in twenty minutes. Yes, Um,

717
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: she comes with her own little director's chair and her

718
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: own little pair of glasses. And the doll looks just

719
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: like her. When I bought that doll, I had hair

720
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: almost exactly like hers. Um, I just her probably once.

721
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: So it's kind of a thing. But yeah, it's okay.

722
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: So I should say I love Barbie right like I'm

723
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: not so I'm not one of these feminists. It's like

724
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: Barbie as she sucks. I really like Barbie. I collected Barbies.

725
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: My mom is an adult who collects Barbies. This is

726
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: where I get it. I it sounds really silly, but

727
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: when I saw that Ava Duvarnay doll, it was just

728
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: so cool. It was just so cool. I mean, she

729
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: is a powerhouse black female director, and even to be

730
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 1: that is is unusual in this country. It shouldn't be,

731
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 1: but it is. And then to have her likeness, her story,

732
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: her image be condensed into an iconic brand like a

733
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: Barbie doll, and let's be real, like the people who

734
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: have that doll are not kids. It's like weird adults

735
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 1: like myself, So let's be real. But the fact that like,

736
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: somewhere out there, a little kid could be playing with

737
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: that doll and the way that you were doing My

738
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: Little Pony dramatic reenactments, they could be doing Ava du

739
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: Varney pitches to Netflix, and that's how they're you know,

740
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: that's how they could be playing. And I don't know,

741
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: it's it's I could easily see myself being one of

742
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: the people who's like, oh, it's just toys. Who cares?

743
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: Who cares? But when I got that doll, it did

744
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: make a difference. And I'm an adult and it made

745
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: a difference. Yeah. And speaking of Barbie, recently was in

746
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 1: the news for releasing the Inspiring Women collection with historical

747
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 1: ladies like Amelia Earhart and Katherine Johnson, along with all

748
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: those stem themed Barbies of recent years. And this is

749
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: a long way from back when one of her catchphrases

750
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: was that class is tough. Barbie sales in general have

751
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: been in decline for several years, and in response, Mattel

752
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: has released barbies of different bodies, shape, skin to and

753
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 1: hair colors. And I will say my parents, Oh, I

754
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: can't remember her name, but there was a knockoff barbie

755
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: but she was kind of chubbier, and that was the

756
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: one my parents always wasn't was she also in the

757
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: Barbie universe and now she was like a Barbie knockoff?

758
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,240
Speaker 1: And I feel like it was simply me or something.

759
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was always kind of bummed out

760
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 1: about it, but at the same time, I appreciated. I

761
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: appreciated that she existed. UM and kids aren't the only

762
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: ones who want more gender neutral toy options. Parents do too,

763
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: and many have been pushing for a wider range for

764
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: their children. UM in toys aimed at girls saw a

765
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 1: significant increase, but if you break it down, the largest

766
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: area of growth was in the more gender neutral categories

767
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: like games, games, and specific The same year, sales of

768
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: toys aimed at boys, like action figures, drastically decreased. Some

769
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: companies saw signs that gendered marketing may not be the

770
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 1: best way to sell toys and took steps. Like Target

771
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: UM they made lines recently by getting rid of gender

772
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 1: based signs in some departments, including toys. British retailer Hamley

773
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: did something similar in two thousand and eleven, doing away

774
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: with the pink accented floors denoting the girl's aisle and

775
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: the blue floors for the boys aisle, and another another

776
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: British chain, Boots, did essentially the same thing, and getting

777
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: more women in on these toymaking decisions would be a

778
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: step in the right direction as well. Currently, it's a

779
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 1: man's world for a Lego as of senior management consisted

780
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: of twenty two men and two women, and barbie makers

781
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: Mattel looks the same with eleven men and one woman again,

782
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: in which is very strange that it's all these men

783
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: in charge of barbies is very strange. Yeah, it is,

784
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: isn't it. We have we both have very weird looks

785
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: at our faces because I do think thinks strange that

786
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: we're leaving it up to a group of mostly adult

787
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: men to get into the minds of the people who

788
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 1: are going to be playing with these dolls. Yeah, yeah,

789
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 1: it's a little it's a little weird. Um. And I

790
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: when I was trying to think of the clever thing

791
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: to stay at the end of this, I thought, well,

792
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 1: we need to make more movies and entertainments with women,

793
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: and then then the action figures and the merchandise will follow.

794
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 1: But clearly that's not always true. And if toy sales

795
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: are influencing what in entertainment gets made, then we need

796
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: more gender neutral toys. And again, this is leaving out

797
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people. This is leaving out a lot

798
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: of non binary folks and just a whole plethora of

799
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: stories we could be telling again, and we're not telling them.

800
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: And from a purely capitalistic standpoint, it's leaving a lot

801
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: of money on the table too. Yeah, that's the thing

802
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: I haven't quite wrapped my head around just yet is

803
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: companies who embrace more gender neutral marketing decisions are the

804
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: ones who were seeing an uptick in their sales, right,

805
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: And so why wouldn't all Why wouldn't all companies do that?

806
00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: Just mean I can't. I can't sort of like wrap

807
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 1: my head around it. I think they're entrenched in their ways.

808
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: I think they truly believe girls don't buy these things,

809
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: even if there is evidence to the contrary. And it

810
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: comes back to that sort of philosophical point where it

811
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: almost seems like making money takes a backseat to upholding

812
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 1: this gendered construction of who plays with what, and again

813
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: it's playing with toys may sound like a trivial thing,

814
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: but it's important to the development of children and it

815
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 1: gives them. We're whether we know it or not, we're

816
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: telling them in a maybe subtle way or maybe an

817
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: obvious way, that this, this is your role. This is

818
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: the box that you go in, and it impacts how

819
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: they what they imagine their future could be. Yeah, because,

820
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 1: as we say on the show all the time, if

821
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 1: you can't see it, you can't be it, and kids

822
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: of all genders need to see it so they can

823
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: be it. Yeah. Yeah, more more gender neutral toys, more

824
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 1: black widow. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well. I think that is

825
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: all we have to say about action figures and toys

826
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: for now. We're gonna do another follow up. I think Oh,

827
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: I think so. I think so. We clearly have a

828
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 1: lot to say about this topic. So sminthy listeners, this

829
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: is an episode where I really really really want you

830
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: to tag us and stuff. Do you have a kid

831
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: who loves her superhero outfit? Do you have a little

832
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: boy who loves his Barbie? I don't want to see

833
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 1: it all. I love kid pictures, Please, please please tag

834
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: us and all the kid and toy related things we

835
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: really want to see them. You can find us on

836
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: Instagram and Stuff I've Never Told You on Twitter at

837
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcasts, and we love getting your emails at

838
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: mom stuff at how stuff works dot com