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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey thereon, Welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcast

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Speaker 1: with Me, Tom Berducci, and of course Joe Madden. Joe,

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Speaker 1: we know, I think there's a football game coming up

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Speaker 1: this weekend and a lot of people like to watch

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Speaker 1: the game with money on the line, which really makes

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Speaker 1: this the perfect week to talk about a book that

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Speaker 1: I think is not just fascinating and entertaining, but I

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Speaker 1: would use the word necessary to try to define a

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Speaker 1: problem that's on our hands.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about sports.

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Speaker 1: Gambling and the book is called Everybody Loses The Tumultuous

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Speaker 1: Rise of American Sports Gambling, written by our guests Danny

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Speaker 1: Funt and Joe. I know you've written a blurb for

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Speaker 1: this book, so Danny and Joe, thanks again for this

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Speaker 1: book and Joe for the blurb.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, listen, when Danny approached me about this, and he

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Speaker 3: had done a little research regarding my feelings on gambling

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Speaker 3: and what it's done to sports. Yeah, I was all

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Speaker 3: in when he approached me on that. And again, you're

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Speaker 3: talking and we I would probably get into this at

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Speaker 3: some point, but I grew up in a gambling culture

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Speaker 3: in my hometown. But it all happened in the back

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Speaker 3: room of a bar, and or at a card table

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Speaker 3: and uncle at third Base, lunching at till like six

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Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning with a bunch of friends.

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Speaker 4: There.

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Speaker 3: You had to work a little bit to lose your

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Speaker 3: money back then. You don't have to work so hard

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Speaker 3: to lose your money right now. And so there was

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Speaker 3: always this romantic component of gambling as it used to

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Speaker 3: exist back in the day.

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Speaker 4: I think it's become.

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Speaker 3: Ubiquitous to the point now that you could just so

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Speaker 3: easily lose your money the moment you wake up and

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Speaker 3: just pick up your phone. So that's what he and

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Speaker 3: I talked about, Danny and I, and yeah, I believe strongly.

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Speaker 3: I can't believe we've gotten to this point, very strongly.

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Speaker 3: So it's great to have you here today, Danny, to

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Speaker 3: talk about this in greater depth.

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Speaker 5: Well, thank you. I think it was listening to this show.

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Speaker 5: I don't remember exactly whether it's the in light of

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Speaker 5: the Tani scandal yet. It's easy to lose track of

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Speaker 5: some of these gambling scandals nowadays. But hearing both of

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Speaker 5: you express your concerns about what's happening with gambling made

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Speaker 5: me say, I got to see if Joe would be

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Speaker 5: kind enough to endorse this book. So thank you very

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Speaker 5: much for that. That meant a lot.

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Speaker 2: Well, Danny, congrats on the book. It's doing very well.

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Speaker 1: More importantly than that, you know, it's as I said,

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Speaker 1: it's necessary. It's an important book, not just a good read.

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Speaker 1: I want to take you back to where the book

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Speaker 1: for you begins, and it kind of begins with the

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Speaker 1: old borrow of gambling term risk reward.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: You start with a question like what do we stand

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Speaker 1: to gain with all this sports gambling and what do

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Speaker 1: we stand to lose? And those were questions that were

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Speaker 1: not being asked with our rush to get into the

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Speaker 1: sports gambling universe here at least legally, which really goes

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Speaker 1: back to the Supreme Court ruling of twenty eighteen. So

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Speaker 1: I want you to tell our listeners here, you know

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Speaker 1: now that we were in this deeply, how would you

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Speaker 1: describe that risk reward ratio? Like what do we stand

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Speaker 1: to gain? And what have we learned about what we

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Speaker 1: stand to lose.

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Speaker 5: It's still unbelievable to me that we as a nation

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Speaker 5: and the world of sports didn't really stop to process

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Speaker 5: that question. And give it the time you'd think it

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Speaker 5: would deserve. I feel like we sort of got cheated

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Speaker 5: out of that debate, as fundamental as that is. In

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Speaker 5: reporting the book and talking to so many people in

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Speaker 5: and around sports, I just got overwhelmed by all that's

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Speaker 5: at stake.

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Speaker 6: Beyond money.

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Speaker 5: You know, there's so much money that Americans are losing

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Speaker 5: as they bet one hundred and fifty billion dollars a

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Speaker 5: year on sports nowadays, but beyond that, when you think

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Speaker 5: of faith in the integrity of the game, even for

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Speaker 5: fans that don't gamble and are just increasingly cynical as

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Speaker 5: they hear about fixing scandals or the threat of those.

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Speaker 5: The independence of sports media in some respects is there's

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Speaker 5: just such an jaggering amount of gambling advertising being poured

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Speaker 5: in and the tough spot that puts some sports journalists

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Speaker 5: when you think of the health consequences of so much

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Speaker 5: gambling for gamblers and also for athletes, and I get

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Speaker 5: into that in my book, how there's just this scourge

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Speaker 5: of harassment targeting athletes nowadays that's fueled by enraged gamblers

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Speaker 5: who want to get even all of that is hard

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Speaker 5: to even process, and then you ask, what do we

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Speaker 5: stand again, and I think that's a much harder question

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Speaker 5: to answer.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we talked about this too, Danny and I

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Speaker 3: don't even know. You know, first of all, why, you know,

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Speaker 3: why did it? Why did it become so necessary to

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Speaker 3: incorporate this legalized version of gambling into our sports world.

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Speaker 4: Why?

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Speaker 3: And of course it comes down to money, obviously, but

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Speaker 3: for me and I think we discussed this also, the

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Speaker 3: need for perfection in the results of games.

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Speaker 4: I think accelerated all this gambling.

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Speaker 3: Gamblinglerated all that into the games because people are beening

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Speaker 3: exorbitant amount of money is on different sporting events, not

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Speaker 3: just baseball obviously, every basketball, football, whatever, And with that,

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Speaker 3: I think that is really accelerated check in the game

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Speaker 3: because you need to be right. I mean, gamblers cannot

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Speaker 3: be losing grand amounts of money on calls by normal

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Speaker 3: human beings, umpires, referees, whatever, and it's going to get

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Speaker 3: I thought, you know, probably it would even get worse

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Speaker 3: if that was not was that, if that was left unchecked,

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Speaker 3: where you're losing a lot of money without the last

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Speaker 3: last downs of checks and balances incorporated. So I mean,

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Speaker 3: regarding all of that, I mean, why why does it

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Speaker 3: gotten to this point. I just like hear your answer.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's obviously one here we have

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Speaker 3: to say. And then, do you think the perfection in

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Speaker 3: the game is the result of the accelerated level of

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Speaker 3: gambling in the game where you have to be right

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Speaker 3: because the gamblers are really going to be upset if

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Speaker 3: they lose on a bad call.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it is interesting the way, like the analytics boom

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Speaker 5: coincided with so many people taking an interest in gambling,

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Speaker 5: and maybe it gives you a full sense of confidence

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Speaker 5: if you think you've run the numbers on a game

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Speaker 5: versus just having an educated guess, and yet you find

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Speaker 5: out pretty quickly it's just unbelievably difficult to win money

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Speaker 5: betting on sports, the house that had just so dominant

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Speaker 5: in the long run, and yet people kid themselves because

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Speaker 5: they think I know my team or my you know league,

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Speaker 5: or what have you better than the bookie, And it

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Speaker 5: just does not work that way. As for why the

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Speaker 5: leagues got in bed with this, I was happy to

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Speaker 5: shed some light on that in the book. I think

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Speaker 5: baseball and the NBA really led the charge. The NBA

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Speaker 5: because they wanted to grow their game internationally, and they

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Speaker 5: looked at European soccer in particular and saw how the

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Speaker 5: English Premier League had used gambling to attract such a

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Speaker 5: big global audience, and that was very appealing to Adam Silver, saying,

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Speaker 5: you know, we're doing everything we can to grow our

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Speaker 5: game outside of the US, and gambling is a proven

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Speaker 5: way to do that. And then with baseball, from what

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Speaker 5: I'm told, league executives were just thinking, our audience is dwindling,

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Speaker 5: it's getting older, Young people don't want to sit through games.

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Speaker 5: How can we turn the leisurely place of pay into

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Speaker 5: an advantage where you know, this pauses between pitches is

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Speaker 5: a chance for people to be betting constantly on their phones.

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Speaker 5: That was very appealing to Major League Baseball. And I

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Speaker 5: did have to stop for a moment when these two

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Speaker 5: pitchers on the Cleveland Guardians were arrested last year for

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Speaker 5: allegedly fixing pitches, these so called micro bets, The league

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Speaker 5: kind of sounded aghast, like, oh boy, whoever thought it

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Speaker 5: would get to this place where you're betting on balls

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Speaker 5: and strikes? That was exactly what you know, got them

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Speaker 5: interested in the first place, was the prospect of that

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Speaker 5: level of NonStop betting during games. So things like that,

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Speaker 5: things that you can bet on explicitly through your phone,

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Speaker 5: which is how something like ninety five percent of bets

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Speaker 5: are placed nowadays. That was too good to pass up

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Speaker 5: for major league by small in the NBA, and then

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Speaker 5: the other leagues got on board and do time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Danny, I wanted to follow up on that. You mentioned,

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Speaker 2: you know, the how easy it is.

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Speaker 1: Essentially to bet, and you know, going back to Joe's days,

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Speaker 1: you know that you had to work at it. As

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Speaker 1: Joe said, right, we've removed a lot of the barriers.

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Speaker 1: We've were a society of convenience and then especially works

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Speaker 1: in the world of sports gambling.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I note that.

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Speaker 1: You know these these companies, and I think you referred

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Speaker 1: to this in the book, that they kind of prey

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Speaker 1: upon people and it's more manipulative. We saw the same

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Speaker 1: tactics work with Silicon Valley and social media, where you thought, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is great, we can connect with other people, but

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Speaker 1: the algorithms are designed to be manipulative and essentially addictive.

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Speaker 1: Is the same thing happening with sports books and the

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Speaker 1: way that they can use algorithms to essentially tailor betting

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Speaker 1: practices and and and just say, strategies to get people

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Speaker 1: not just to join up, but to stay in No question.

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Speaker 5: From the moment you sign up, they're studying you to

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Speaker 5: profile who they're dealing with. Even how you use a

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Speaker 5: new customer promotion that's often sort of a honey trap,

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Speaker 5: as someone put it. So if you leverage that promotion

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Speaker 5: as strategically as possible, the operator is going to say, hey,

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Speaker 5: this person knows what they're doing. Let's tread carefully with them.

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Speaker 5: If you take a short break, they'll send you, you know,

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Speaker 5: customized appeals. Hey, here's some here's a promotion, come back,

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Speaker 5: start betting. That's all a total byproduct of online betting,

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Speaker 5: and i'd say just the user experience, you know, the

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Speaker 5: idea that you could be betting constantly through a game.

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Speaker 5: More than half of bets now are placed during the game,

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Speaker 5: as opposed to pregame That obviously didn't occur with street bookies,

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Speaker 5: or you know, having to go even if you're in

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Speaker 5: Las Vegas and you have to step up to the

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Speaker 5: counter to bet, you know, it's not very practical to

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Speaker 5: wait in line to tell someone, hey, i'd like to

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Speaker 5: bet on the runner on first stealing second. That's totally

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Speaker 5: something that's made possible by online betting. And I remember

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Speaker 5: speaking with an executive at one of these companies that

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Speaker 5: generates those sort of micro bets, these things that you're

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Speaker 5: betting on constantly through the game, and I said, it

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Speaker 5: would seem logical that if you're betting, if you're comfortable betting,

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Speaker 5: let's say fifty bucks pregame and back of the day,

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Speaker 5: you'd bet your fifty bucks and then sit back and watch.

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Speaker 5: Now you might bet ten dollars ten times or more

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Speaker 5: than that over the course of the game, so the

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Speaker 5: money's going to add up. And he said, bingo, that's

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Speaker 5: exactly what we're going for. The other thing was, you know,

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Speaker 5: if you're betting every few minutes as opposed to every

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Speaker 5: few hours, it really starts to resemble playing a slot machine.

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Speaker 5: And that's an analogy I hear a lot from health experts.

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Speaker 4: You know this.

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Speaker 5: Days you get in as you're just banging away at

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Speaker 5: your phone or at a slot that you know is

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Speaker 5: a recipe for compulsive behavior. And I ran that by

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Speaker 5: this same executive and he said, well, we don't like

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Speaker 5: to think of it as compulsive. Sticky is how we

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Speaker 5: think of it, which is obviously just a tech euphemism

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Speaker 5: for something you can't put down. You know, your glued

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Speaker 5: to your betting app. So, yes, it's the engineering of gambling,

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Speaker 5: when you sort of step away from the moral implications

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Speaker 5: of it, is masterful. It's such a laboratory of psychology

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Speaker 5: and exploiting human weakness. That's, by the way, the way

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Speaker 5: Bart Giamatti, the former commissioner, put it, gambling exploits human weakness.

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Speaker 6: But he could never have dreamed.

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Speaker 5: Of how today's apps, you know, take that to such

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Speaker 5: higher levels.

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Speaker 1: Well, it seems like it especially praise upon young people,

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Speaker 1: you know. Looking at some numbers from seeing a college

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Speaker 1: poll from last year, twenty two percent of Americans have

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Speaker 1: an account with than a sports book, and it's forty

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Speaker 1: eight percent of men between eighteen and forty nine.

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Speaker 2: What do the demographics tell you about who is betting?

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Speaker 5: Yes, So I mean that those numbers are hard to believe.

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Speaker 5: I just saw a study recently that a third of

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Speaker 5: boys between I think it was eleven and eighteen are gambling. Now,

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Speaker 5: you might say, how on earth are they even doing that? Well,

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Speaker 5: it's not too hard to get your older sibling or

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Speaker 5: cousin or neighbor or whatever to place bets for you.

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Speaker 5: So kids are finding a way to bet. I think

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Speaker 5: clearly this. You know they're not kids, but young men

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Speaker 5: are the target demo. You think about who's the spokespeople

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Speaker 5: for these companies, it's the heroes of people, you know,

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Speaker 5: my generation and a little younger. You got so many

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Speaker 5: trusted voices in sports media saying this is the way

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Speaker 5: to engage with sports. Now, I think that has a

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Speaker 5: real effect. I remember speaking with a guy who was

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Speaker 5: at NBC Sports when they struck a five hundred million

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Speaker 5: dollar deal with an operator called points Bet. It was

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Speaker 5: one of the first big deals between a broadcaster and

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Speaker 5: a sports book around twenty twenty one. And you know,

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Speaker 5: they integrated points bet odds and all their coverage pre

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Speaker 5: and during the games. And then this guy went to

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Speaker 5: work more recently for a telehealth provider that provides addiction services,

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Speaker 5: including especially for gambling. There might be a little bit

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Speaker 5: of repentance involved in why he's drawn to that work now,

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Speaker 5: but he told me that he talks to a lot

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Speaker 5: of colleges and a lot of fraternities in particular, and

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Speaker 5: just seeing how those guys it's just totally second nature.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 5: Oh, the game's about to start. Who you got, let's

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Speaker 5: all rush and get our bets. In the idea that

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Speaker 5: that is just the default way of preparing to watch sports,

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Speaker 5: or watching you know, or behaving as you're watching sports.

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Speaker 5: He couldn't help but feel like that was a consequence

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Speaker 5: of things that his former company did to just make

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Speaker 5: this seems so harmless and innocent, and like, you know,

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Speaker 5: if you're a fan of sports, this is what you're doing.

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Speaker 5: And he could see kind of the ruboff of that

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Speaker 5: with these college guys.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's gambling. Is attracting new fans is a kind

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Speaker 3: of a false positive.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you want to grow the game. For me,

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Speaker 4: growing the game.

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Speaker 3: I always thought a very naive perspective. You want to

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Speaker 3: get youth involvement, you want to get more kids playing

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Speaker 3: the game on a field in the countryside, with big

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Speaker 3: city wherever that might be. But the new fan attraction

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Speaker 3: is a false positive. They say the game is in

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Speaker 3: a good place. Is it really as it really? I mean,

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Speaker 3: if the new fans are just there to bet on

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Speaker 3: the game and an attempt to either satisfy and urge

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Speaker 3: or whatever the addiction may be, does that really growing

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Speaker 3: the game?

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Speaker 4: Again?

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Speaker 3: It's a false positive as far as I'm concerned. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I'm a purist with all of this, and I think

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Speaker 3: a lot.

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Speaker 4: Of us are.

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Speaker 3: And so when you hear those kind of phrases and

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Speaker 3: the fact that the game was in decline and we

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Speaker 3: got to get the young guys, young folks back into

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Speaker 3: the game, men and women.

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Speaker 4: You know, okay, great, how are we going to do that?

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Speaker 3: And and the strategy is anything but in involving youth

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Speaker 3: more often and growing the game in that regard, even

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Speaker 3: the world wide stuff. I get it in other sports too,

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Speaker 3: and even baseball is making that attempt. But it really

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Speaker 3: comes down to get any more kids wanting to, you know,

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Speaker 3: smell their glove during the wintertime, throwing the ball into

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Speaker 3: their glove, eager to get out there when the weather

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Speaker 3: just turns like into the forties in marsh and Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 3: I mean, those are the That's what I when I

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Speaker 3: hear those kind of request or thoughts, are you know

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Speaker 3: this is this is what we need to get done?

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Speaker 3: Those those are the kind of moments I think, and

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Speaker 3: how do you get that done? As opposed to making

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Speaker 3: this a gambling centric kind of a situation where all

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Speaker 3: the sports is really not about the purest form of

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Speaker 3: the game, but an attempt a week attempt to make

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Speaker 3: a couple of bucks. And when all of a sudden

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Speaker 3: you become a fan, not a fan of the Mets,

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Speaker 3: the Yankees, the Cardinals, whatever, but a fan of gambling

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Speaker 3: within the confines of the game.

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Speaker 4: That really is kind of repulsive to me.

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Speaker 5: Not to mention, if you think the game is rigged,

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Speaker 5: that's pretty that's a big turn off. And the fact

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Speaker 5: that more than half of Americans now think some athletes

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Speaker 5: at least are altering their play to swing the outcomes

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Speaker 5: of bets. I think that cynicism is a really big

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Speaker 5: problem long term for fandom. I can't help but admire.

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Speaker 5: How so, the commissioners of a prior generation said all

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Speaker 5: this stuff, and they, you know, they clearly were profit motivated,

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Speaker 5: but they thought it would be so shortsighted for the

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Speaker 5: very reasons you were describing. You know, yeah, you might

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Speaker 5: hook people in the short term, but if all they

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Speaker 5: end up caring about is gambling, that's not a recipe

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Speaker 5: for generational fandom. And you know, you think about people

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Speaker 5: nowadays who say I can only watch a game if

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Speaker 5: I've got skin in it, Like if I'm just watching

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Speaker 5: for the sake of watching the game.

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Speaker 6: That's boring to me.

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Speaker 5: That feels bad for the business of sports when you

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Speaker 5: hear people who develop problems and then they say, I

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Speaker 5: can't watch sports anymore because it just gives me this

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Speaker 5: urge to gamble. And the ads certainly don't help either.

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Speaker 5: The you know, the idea that you have to protect

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Speaker 5: yourself from your worst instincts by not watching sports. Now,

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Speaker 5: for some people, that's a problem. And as you were saying,

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Speaker 5: you know, if what you're caring about is, you know,

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Speaker 5: will a pitcher meet some prop bet, or you know,

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Speaker 5: the game within the game, that can be so trivial,

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Speaker 5: that also is a strange relationship with sports. And not

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Speaker 5: to sound judging or moralistic about that, but just if

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Speaker 5: we're thinking about the business, I think if people are

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Speaker 5: tuning in because they're worried about, you know, an obscure

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Speaker 5: prop bet, that's not gonna make them, you know, obsessed

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Speaker 5: with sports the way that we all were, you know,

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Speaker 5: for much of our lives.

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Speaker 6: So I'm with you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, great points by both of you, especially when it

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Speaker 1: comes to the when the buy in as a fan

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Speaker 1: lacks emotion and is predicated on pure finance. That's when

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Speaker 1: you see and I see it all the time now,

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Speaker 1: the anger in the ballparks and the stadiums on me

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Speaker 1: personal anger. Now, you're not just getting frustrated because your

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Speaker 1: team is losing. You're getting mad because it's literally costing

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Speaker 1: you money. And I've talked to players about this. It's

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Speaker 1: a real thing. I see it getting worse. We're going

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Speaker 1: to take a quick break. Our guest here is Danny Funt.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a terrific book, Everybody Loses, The Tumultuous Rise

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Speaker 1: of American Sports Gambling. We will continue with this right

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Speaker 1: after this on the Book of Joe.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Book of Joe.

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Speaker 1: This Sunday, they say, while the American Gaming Association says

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Speaker 1: a record one point seven to six billion dollars will.

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Speaker 2: Be wagered on the Super Bowl coming up on Sunday.

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Speaker 2: That's up twenty seven percent just from last year. Wow.

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Speaker 1: And if you watch even a little bit of television

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Speaker 1: or go online, you understand why.

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Speaker 2: Because Joe, you mentioned a great word, ubiquitous.

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Speaker 1: Gambling is ubiquitous when it comes to these ads, and

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Speaker 1: why these celebrities feel like they need to shell a

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Speaker 1: shill for all this.

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Speaker 2: Is beyond me, but anyway, it's here, it's in our face.

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Speaker 1: My question for you, Danny, is is this a growth industry?

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Speaker 1: Are all these companies sports books making money? Or are

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Speaker 1: we in a phase now where you mentioned this kind

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Speaker 1: of get the people to get people hooked in. These

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Speaker 1: incentives costs these sports books a lot of money. They

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Speaker 1: try to make it out on the other end of it,

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Speaker 1: what they're paying these celebrities to endorse, it cost them

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Speaker 1: a lot of money. Do we still need to shake

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Speaker 1: out this industry or it is a growth industry for

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Speaker 1: anybody who wants to get in.

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Speaker 6: So the industry as.

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Speaker 5: A whole is definitely still growing. There was speculation that

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Speaker 5: maybe there'd be like an initial craze when a state legalizes,

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00:20:02,718 --> 00:20:05,478
Speaker 5: of oh what's this about, let me seize a new

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00:20:05,478 --> 00:20:08,398
Speaker 5: customer promotion and get a little taste, and then it

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00:20:08,398 --> 00:20:12,118
Speaker 5: would kind of flatline. That hasn't really happened. New York

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00:20:12,678 --> 00:20:16,198
Speaker 5: legalized sports betting about four years ago, and in a

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Speaker 5: recent week they set a record for the amount of

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Speaker 5: money wagered over a week, more than half a billion

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Speaker 5: dollars in the New York state alone. So the graph

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00:20:25,358 --> 00:20:29,158
Speaker 5: is still pointing upward. As a country. But part of

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Speaker 5: the reason why I name the book Everybody Loses is

397
00:20:32,038 --> 00:20:36,278
Speaker 5: because of this unexpected realization that it's not a slam

398
00:20:36,358 --> 00:20:40,038
Speaker 5: dunk business for so many of these companies, Something like

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00:20:40,198 --> 00:20:45,838
Speaker 5: sixty sportsbooks flooded the marketplace, initially thinking the house always wins.

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Speaker 5: If we pay our bills and run our business competently,

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Speaker 5: we can't lose.

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Speaker 6: Not the case.

403
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Speaker 5: A lot of them have gone out of business or

404
00:20:54,918 --> 00:20:57,678
Speaker 5: pulled back from certain states just because it's too expensive.

405
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Speaker 5: It seems like we're headed toward a duopoly of FanDuel

406
00:21:01,478 --> 00:21:05,398
Speaker 5: and DraftKings and maybe one or two other companies dominating

407
00:21:05,438 --> 00:21:10,038
Speaker 5: and everyone else fading away. But even them, even the

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00:21:10,198 --> 00:21:12,678
Speaker 5: you know, the one or two companies that are actually

409
00:21:12,678 --> 00:21:15,918
Speaker 5: turning a profit, they're under so much investor pressure to

410
00:21:15,998 --> 00:21:19,038
Speaker 5: keep growing, partly because they spent billions of dollars to

411
00:21:19,158 --> 00:21:22,238
Speaker 5: get profitable in the first place, and also just because

412
00:21:22,238 --> 00:21:27,198
Speaker 5: investors are never satisfied, so they're trying to grow their

413
00:21:27,278 --> 00:21:30,918
Speaker 5: margins on each bet. That means pushing more parlays on

414
00:21:30,958 --> 00:21:34,278
Speaker 5: people bets that lose, you know, sometimes six times more

415
00:21:34,878 --> 00:21:38,158
Speaker 5: than the traditional way you'd wager on sports. There's also

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00:21:38,198 --> 00:21:41,638
Speaker 5: a lot of pressure to grow online casino gambling across

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Speaker 5: the country. Only like half a dozen states have legalized

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Speaker 5: this now, but there's a lot of pressure for more

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Speaker 5: states to do that. I know Virginia is considering it

420
00:21:52,598 --> 00:21:55,478
Speaker 5: main recently legalize that. You're going to keep hearing about that.

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00:21:55,598 --> 00:21:59,798
Speaker 5: FANDL and DraftKings and all these companies have online casino

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00:21:59,918 --> 00:22:03,038
Speaker 5: versions of their apps. And the appeal is if you

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Speaker 5: can pull someone through the door betting on sports and

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Speaker 5: then say, hey, you know what's in between innings or

425
00:22:08,918 --> 00:22:10,958
Speaker 5: your game's about to start, why don't you go play

426
00:22:10,998 --> 00:22:14,238
Speaker 5: blackjack or roulette or slots or what have you. That

427
00:22:14,438 --> 00:22:17,758
Speaker 5: is so much more profitable than sports betting. It's also

428
00:22:17,838 --> 00:22:21,118
Speaker 5: so much more bankable just because it has fixed odds.

429
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Speaker 5: So I remember seeing in Pennsylvania, where they've had online

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Speaker 5: casino gambling and sports betting for several years now, that

431
00:22:29,638 --> 00:22:34,038
Speaker 5: just the revenue they're getting off of online casino gambling

432
00:22:34,158 --> 00:22:37,518
Speaker 5: just blows sports betting out of the water. It's also

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Speaker 5: the main reason why people are getting help for gambling

434
00:22:39,918 --> 00:22:43,318
Speaker 5: addictions in Pennsylvania now, So I think that's where this

435
00:22:43,398 --> 00:22:45,558
Speaker 5: is heading, where in some respects, sports betting is a

436
00:22:45,598 --> 00:22:49,118
Speaker 5: gateway to get people to be gambling on all sorts

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00:22:49,158 --> 00:22:50,238
Speaker 5: of things on their phones.

438
00:22:50,638 --> 00:22:53,078
Speaker 3: I mean, you're talking about my home state right there.

439
00:22:53,278 --> 00:22:55,878
Speaker 3: Probably that's the point, probably talking about a lot of

440
00:22:55,878 --> 00:22:56,838
Speaker 3: my buddies right there.

441
00:22:56,878 --> 00:23:00,558
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that dopamine rush, right, I mean, place a

442
00:23:00,678 --> 00:23:03,198
Speaker 1: sports bet, man, you gotta wait till the game is played.

443
00:23:03,958 --> 00:23:05,558
Speaker 2: I mean, you're whatever.

444
00:23:05,678 --> 00:23:08,318
Speaker 1: I've never played these online casinos, but if you're playing

445
00:23:08,358 --> 00:23:12,518
Speaker 1: roulette or pulling a slot, virtually the man, that rush

446
00:23:13,158 --> 00:23:15,358
Speaker 1: or the thought of that you're going to hit and

447
00:23:15,398 --> 00:23:18,798
Speaker 1: win is immediate, and I'm sure there is again an

448
00:23:18,878 --> 00:23:20,358
Speaker 1: addictive element to those.

449
00:23:20,438 --> 00:23:22,438
Speaker 2: So I have heard that sports.

450
00:23:22,038 --> 00:23:24,718
Speaker 1: Gambling is as big as it is, it's a drop

451
00:23:24,758 --> 00:23:27,678
Speaker 1: in the bucket compared to the market for these online casinos.

452
00:23:28,278 --> 00:23:28,798
Speaker 6: Oh yeah.

453
00:23:28,838 --> 00:23:31,398
Speaker 5: And I mean I've heard people just say, like, gosh,

454
00:23:31,718 --> 00:23:33,558
Speaker 5: I said, what the heck, I'll play some you know,

455
00:23:33,758 --> 00:23:36,678
Speaker 5: blackjack on the bus home from work, and just it

456
00:23:36,718 --> 00:23:39,838
Speaker 5: feels like monopoly money. And then you're like, wait, but

457
00:23:39,998 --> 00:23:42,358
Speaker 5: you know the bus stopped and then it stopped again.

458
00:23:42,478 --> 00:23:46,118
Speaker 5: I lost fifty bucks, Like, how did that happen? It's

459
00:23:46,278 --> 00:23:47,918
Speaker 5: so easy to get in over your head. So I

460
00:23:47,998 --> 00:23:52,198
Speaker 5: remember one former employee at Fandle said it's their most

461
00:23:52,278 --> 00:23:57,598
Speaker 5: ethically problematic product, just because it's so easy to overdo it.

462
00:23:57,598 --> 00:24:00,158
Speaker 5: It's so easy for people with any sort of gambling

463
00:24:00,198 --> 00:24:04,558
Speaker 5: problem to get hooked. And that I mean, and that

464
00:24:04,598 --> 00:24:06,638
Speaker 5: could be if we talk about, you know, the public

465
00:24:06,638 --> 00:24:08,198
Speaker 5: health implications of sports betting.

466
00:24:08,278 --> 00:24:10,958
Speaker 6: If that takes off, that's a whole different story.

467
00:24:11,238 --> 00:24:13,358
Speaker 3: I would imagine in the cold weather right now becomes

468
00:24:13,398 --> 00:24:16,038
Speaker 3: even exaggerated a bit. People can't even go anywhere, so

469
00:24:16,078 --> 00:24:18,038
Speaker 3: they're you know, back in the day, like I've always

470
00:24:18,078 --> 00:24:19,918
Speaker 3: referenced the barroom. I mean, you'd sit at the bar

471
00:24:19,998 --> 00:24:21,678
Speaker 3: and then guys would talk about stuff, and you go

472
00:24:21,718 --> 00:24:24,158
Speaker 3: in the back room make your bet. But I would

473
00:24:24,198 --> 00:24:27,078
Speaker 3: imagine that under the circumstances of winter storms like this,

474
00:24:27,918 --> 00:24:29,878
Speaker 3: it's almost like a baby boom. I mean, you're gonna

475
00:24:29,878 --> 00:24:32,038
Speaker 3: have even more people wanting to sit there. Gamble get

476
00:24:32,078 --> 00:24:36,278
Speaker 3: some kind of release in a sense, because they're just

477
00:24:36,318 --> 00:24:39,638
Speaker 3: so isolated. We're stuck, we can't go anywhere, we can't

478
00:24:39,638 --> 00:24:41,638
Speaker 3: do anything, so let's just pick up our phones or

479
00:24:41,678 --> 00:24:42,438
Speaker 3: whatever and gamble.

480
00:24:42,478 --> 00:24:44,678
Speaker 4: Is that part of the equation too, Oh.

481
00:24:44,598 --> 00:24:46,078
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I mean the fact that a lot of

482
00:24:46,078 --> 00:24:48,758
Speaker 5: people nowadays don't leave their homes even when it's sunny.

483
00:24:48,758 --> 00:24:51,198
Speaker 6: Outs you know, has a serious a factor.

484
00:24:51,318 --> 00:24:54,318
Speaker 5: Like people in the industry you study, you know, customer

485
00:24:54,318 --> 00:24:57,998
Speaker 5: behaviors say, this is largely something you do alone, you know,

486
00:24:58,038 --> 00:25:00,478
Speaker 5: when you're bored at home, and that's a piece of it.

487
00:25:00,478 --> 00:25:03,318
Speaker 5: It's also this like cold weather spell. It's sort of

488
00:25:03,318 --> 00:25:07,398
Speaker 5: a micro reminder of what COVID was like. And so

489
00:25:07,518 --> 00:25:11,078
Speaker 5: many people took up sports betting and so many states

490
00:25:11,118 --> 00:25:14,438
Speaker 5: got on board during COVID because people were itching for

491
00:25:14,478 --> 00:25:17,318
Speaker 5: anything to do to relieve their boredom and this was

492
00:25:17,358 --> 00:25:18,038
Speaker 5: an easy.

493
00:25:17,758 --> 00:25:18,358
Speaker 6: Way to do that.

494
00:25:18,598 --> 00:25:21,078
Speaker 5: And yeah, I talked to a lot of people who

495
00:25:21,078 --> 00:25:23,478
Speaker 5: are just like, you know, thank god sports came back.

496
00:25:23,558 --> 00:25:26,238
Speaker 5: But I had nothing else to do, and I was

497
00:25:26,278 --> 00:25:28,118
Speaker 5: getting all this free money to sign up for a

498
00:25:28,158 --> 00:25:29,518
Speaker 5: sports book, and who could resist?

499
00:25:29,758 --> 00:25:31,318
Speaker 2: Danny, you use the phrase there.

500
00:25:31,358 --> 00:25:34,918
Speaker 1: I want to follow up on public health, which doesn't

501
00:25:34,958 --> 00:25:38,718
Speaker 1: necessarily come immediately to mind when you talk about sports gambling,

502
00:25:38,758 --> 00:25:44,038
Speaker 1: but I do see some parallels here with the cigarette industry. Again,

503
00:25:44,158 --> 00:25:47,398
Speaker 1: you've got something that people probably know is not really

504
00:25:47,438 --> 00:25:51,278
Speaker 1: good for them, but there's this aura of coolness about

505
00:25:51,318 --> 00:25:54,558
Speaker 1: it and an ease and convenience about it, and it's

506
00:25:54,638 --> 00:25:57,918
Speaker 1: sold that way, And I'm wondering if now we're starting

507
00:25:57,958 --> 00:26:02,678
Speaker 1: to see an awakening at all, as much as we've

508
00:26:02,678 --> 00:26:04,318
Speaker 1: just talked about how popular it is.

509
00:26:04,518 --> 00:26:05,758
Speaker 2: Just referring to one.

510
00:26:07,078 --> 00:26:11,238
Speaker 1: Poll done by the Pew Research Center, forty three percent

511
00:26:11,558 --> 00:26:16,798
Speaker 1: of adults now say that sports betting is bet for society.

512
00:26:17,838 --> 00:26:19,838
Speaker 2: Three years ago that was thirty.

513
00:26:19,518 --> 00:26:23,198
Speaker 1: Four percent, So more people are looking at it with

514
00:26:23,518 --> 00:26:25,718
Speaker 1: kind of this. I don't know if this is really

515
00:26:25,758 --> 00:26:29,838
Speaker 1: good for us kind of way. Is there an awakening

516
00:26:29,918 --> 00:26:33,518
Speaker 1: going on here or is this just a thick niche

517
00:26:33,558 --> 00:26:37,638
Speaker 1: of society that is really wedded to sports gambling.

518
00:26:37,678 --> 00:26:40,238
Speaker 2: Are we waking up to some of the dangers here

519
00:26:40,358 --> 00:26:40,558
Speaker 2: or no?

520
00:26:41,358 --> 00:26:43,798
Speaker 5: I think slowly. I think it's going to take more time.

521
00:26:44,158 --> 00:26:47,358
Speaker 5: One reason I'm skeptical that that awakening is quite as

522
00:26:47,358 --> 00:26:51,198
Speaker 5: broad as you might wish is there's such a problem

523
00:26:51,238 --> 00:26:53,438
Speaker 5: of kids now betting, as we were discussing, and I

524
00:26:53,478 --> 00:26:57,198
Speaker 5: hear so often that parents are saying, hey, you know,

525
00:26:57,598 --> 00:27:00,478
Speaker 5: son or daughter, I'll place your bets, like what you know,

526
00:27:00,518 --> 00:27:02,358
Speaker 5: tell me who you want and I'll bet it on

527
00:27:02,398 --> 00:27:04,078
Speaker 5: my app, or I'll just hand you my phone. You

528
00:27:04,078 --> 00:27:07,158
Speaker 5: can bet through my account. I think they're thinking, is

529
00:27:07,758 --> 00:27:10,158
Speaker 5: there's a lot worse that their kids could be doing

530
00:27:10,438 --> 00:27:13,798
Speaker 5: betting a little bit on sports, So why not facilitate that.

531
00:27:13,878 --> 00:27:17,118
Speaker 5: I think once people get a firmer grasp of the

532
00:27:17,238 --> 00:27:19,998
Speaker 5: rates of addiction, how expensive it is to deal with that.

533
00:27:20,238 --> 00:27:22,918
Speaker 5: You know, just when we're thinking about money, the costs

534
00:27:22,958 --> 00:27:26,078
Speaker 5: that states are going to have to expend to pay

535
00:27:26,118 --> 00:27:28,878
Speaker 5: for people getting help who can't afford it could potentially

536
00:27:29,078 --> 00:27:32,918
Speaker 5: so outweigh whatever they're bringing in from tax revenue. And

537
00:27:32,958 --> 00:27:35,718
Speaker 5: Tom when you brought up cigarettes, I used to be

538
00:27:35,758 --> 00:27:38,638
Speaker 5: a little reluctant to make that comparison, just because it's

539
00:27:38,638 --> 00:27:44,158
Speaker 5: so inflammatory. People who worked in fighting the tobacco business

540
00:27:44,198 --> 00:27:49,638
Speaker 5: and now have set their sights on gambling. The comparison

541
00:27:49,638 --> 00:27:51,038
Speaker 5: they make that I think is hard to deny. It

542
00:27:51,118 --> 00:27:54,678
Speaker 5: is just how similar the advertising is. Where you had

543
00:27:55,278 --> 00:28:00,038
Speaker 5: superstars and TV shows, you know, saying smoking is no

544
00:28:00,118 --> 00:28:02,838
Speaker 5: big deal. You know, kids don't worry about it. You

545
00:28:02,878 --> 00:28:06,798
Speaker 5: know your heroes are smoking. So seeing you know, Lebron

546
00:28:06,878 --> 00:28:10,398
Speaker 5: James and Derek Jeter and these types of people starring

547
00:28:10,478 --> 00:28:13,638
Speaker 5: and in advertising, I think has a big effect. It's

548
00:28:13,678 --> 00:28:16,078
Speaker 5: it's hard not to relate that to tobacco. You know,

549
00:28:17,718 --> 00:28:22,038
Speaker 5: my grandfather had a TV show called Candid Camera, and

550
00:28:23,238 --> 00:28:25,398
Speaker 5: I you know, it blows me away now that the

551
00:28:26,158 --> 00:28:30,318
Speaker 5: presenting sponsor of the show was Philip Morris for a

552
00:28:30,358 --> 00:28:34,198
Speaker 5: long time and on his on the studio table were

553
00:28:34,238 --> 00:28:37,038
Speaker 5: two ash trays. He wasn't smoking during the show, but

554
00:28:37,078 --> 00:28:39,758
Speaker 5: it was just not so subtle of hey, this is

555
00:28:39,798 --> 00:28:42,758
Speaker 5: what someone like the host of Candid Camera would be doing.

556
00:28:43,358 --> 00:28:46,118
Speaker 5: And now it is that just feels, you know, insane

557
00:28:46,238 --> 00:28:50,078
Speaker 5: and so irresponsible. And I think maybe we'll feel that way,

558
00:28:50,118 --> 00:28:55,238
Speaker 5: you know, thinking about letting beloved superstars promote gambling companies,

559
00:28:55,318 --> 00:28:57,918
Speaker 5: even a lot of the world is kind of a

560
00:28:57,958 --> 00:29:01,438
Speaker 5: guess that that's the norm in the US. Canada doesn't

561
00:29:01,478 --> 00:29:05,318
Speaker 5: really allow that. And I even spoke with representatives of

562
00:29:05,358 --> 00:29:07,718
Speaker 5: the casino industry in Canada and they're like, what are

563
00:29:07,758 --> 00:29:11,518
Speaker 5: what are you Americans thinking to allow celebrities and athletes

564
00:29:11,558 --> 00:29:14,438
Speaker 5: to be promoting gambling. That's just not not the right

565
00:29:14,478 --> 00:29:15,078
Speaker 5: way to do it.

566
00:29:15,478 --> 00:29:18,518
Speaker 3: Alan Front, I'm in Royal, I'm in front of Royalty

567
00:29:18,598 --> 00:29:21,198
Speaker 3: right now. My god, to watch it every every Sunday night,

568
00:29:21,198 --> 00:29:22,558
Speaker 3: And it was a Sunday night, wasn't it.

569
00:29:23,078 --> 00:29:26,118
Speaker 4: Oh my god, Tommy, you watch it all the time too, Yes, right.

570
00:29:26,038 --> 00:29:28,478
Speaker 2: Right show. Absolutely, it was way.

571
00:29:28,278 --> 00:29:31,358
Speaker 4: Ahead of its time. My god, the guy pure genius.

572
00:29:31,638 --> 00:29:31,998
Speaker 1: Thank you.

573
00:29:32,278 --> 00:29:35,078
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean even even greater respect right now, brother,

574
00:29:35,078 --> 00:29:36,198
Speaker 4: I didn't even put that together.

575
00:29:36,558 --> 00:29:39,798
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I'm glad the tobacco stuff didn't. You know,

576
00:29:40,238 --> 00:29:41,398
Speaker 5: you didn't connect the outs there.

577
00:29:41,398 --> 00:29:42,118
Speaker 2: It's it's a week.

578
00:29:42,198 --> 00:29:44,078
Speaker 6: But that was so normal for television.

579
00:29:44,238 --> 00:29:47,238
Speaker 4: You know, every every minor league ballpark had the Marlborough Man.

580
00:29:47,278 --> 00:29:49,158
Speaker 3: When I was coming up and left a lot of

581
00:29:49,158 --> 00:29:51,638
Speaker 3: times left field, left center field, the big Marlborough Man

582
00:29:51,678 --> 00:29:54,398
Speaker 3: would be on attached to one of the light towers,

583
00:29:54,398 --> 00:29:55,798
Speaker 3: and that was a that was a part of the

584
00:29:55,798 --> 00:29:56,678
Speaker 3: fabric back then.

585
00:29:57,318 --> 00:29:59,518
Speaker 4: You know, smoking was much work on and listen, I'm

586
00:29:59,558 --> 00:30:00,518
Speaker 4: not I don't.

587
00:30:00,318 --> 00:30:02,118
Speaker 3: Want to get off on that subject, but yeah, that

588
00:30:02,238 --> 00:30:05,638
Speaker 3: was that was a big part of the ball It

589
00:30:05,718 --> 00:30:07,838
Speaker 3: was like part like a couch in the living room.

590
00:30:07,878 --> 00:30:10,198
Speaker 3: The Marlborough Man was in left field. It was it

591
00:30:10,318 --> 00:30:14,358
Speaker 3: was so part of part of the landscape. So yeah,

592
00:30:14,758 --> 00:30:16,918
Speaker 3: things have changed dramatically with that. I just want to

593
00:30:16,918 --> 00:30:19,158
Speaker 3: ask you a question to be just like kind of

594
00:30:19,158 --> 00:30:24,118
Speaker 3: digressing to the back last segment. You know, the decisions

595
00:30:24,158 --> 00:30:27,198
Speaker 3: made back in the day, Tommy, and the one thing

596
00:30:27,238 --> 00:30:28,998
Speaker 3: I used to remember all the time when and this

597
00:30:29,118 --> 00:30:31,598
Speaker 3: is a selfish component for me, in a sense, every

598
00:30:31,638 --> 00:30:34,758
Speaker 3: time something big would happen, the commission would decide what

599
00:30:34,878 --> 00:30:36,198
Speaker 3: was in the best interest of the game.

600
00:30:37,358 --> 00:30:40,918
Speaker 4: You never really like was more, uh, you know.

601
00:30:40,918 --> 00:30:42,918
Speaker 3: Dictatorial in a sense which he was elected to be

602
00:30:43,518 --> 00:30:46,118
Speaker 3: that this guy would make the final decision which is

603
00:30:46,118 --> 00:30:48,238
Speaker 3: in the best interest for the game. So it's easy

604
00:30:48,278 --> 00:30:49,718
Speaker 3: to look at a lot of this stuff and it's

605
00:30:49,758 --> 00:30:53,358
Speaker 3: hard to imagine. And I'm a big fan of Commissioner Manfred.

606
00:30:53,398 --> 00:30:56,878
Speaker 3: But I'm just saying to to why you don't hear

607
00:30:56,918 --> 00:30:58,638
Speaker 3: that phrase anymore. I don't hear two phrases that I

608
00:30:58,638 --> 00:31:00,878
Speaker 3: really wish I heard more often, what is in the

609
00:31:00,918 --> 00:31:03,238
Speaker 3: best interest of the game? Number one and number two

610
00:31:04,078 --> 00:31:06,118
Speaker 3: referencing our game as a national pastime.

611
00:31:06,838 --> 00:31:09,078
Speaker 4: I never hear that anymore. And I guess they're saying.

612
00:31:08,878 --> 00:31:12,118
Speaker 3: There were conceding defeat to other sports, which I hate.

613
00:31:12,838 --> 00:31:15,118
Speaker 3: So those are the two things that and I guess

614
00:31:15,118 --> 00:31:16,518
Speaker 3: the genies out of the bottle. I don't know, but

615
00:31:16,598 --> 00:31:19,638
Speaker 3: ever could be recaptured again. But part of the purity

616
00:31:19,678 --> 00:31:21,238
Speaker 3: of the game for me as a kid growing up

617
00:31:21,278 --> 00:31:24,198
Speaker 3: that I loved was that the game was referenced as

618
00:31:24,198 --> 00:31:27,038
Speaker 3: a national pastime, and I thought that was really wonderful

619
00:31:27,078 --> 00:31:30,678
Speaker 3: to participate in something that grand. And then every decision

620
00:31:30,758 --> 00:31:34,198
Speaker 3: was made in the best interest of baseball and not

621
00:31:34,398 --> 00:31:37,638
Speaker 3: commerce or economics or wherever you want to label the

622
00:31:37,878 --> 00:31:41,438
Speaker 3: best interest of all these different decisions being made. I'd

623
00:31:41,518 --> 00:31:43,478
Speaker 3: love to see it kind of revert back to that

624
00:31:43,558 --> 00:31:46,238
Speaker 3: at some point, because I think if it did, like

625
00:31:46,318 --> 00:31:49,638
Speaker 3: you're just tending to what the Canadians have already spoken about,

626
00:31:49,638 --> 00:31:51,518
Speaker 3: this would never been permitted in the first place.

627
00:31:52,118 --> 00:31:54,238
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I didn't realize that the Commissioner of

628
00:31:54,278 --> 00:31:58,238
Speaker 5: Baseball that job was created post Black Sox specifically to

629
00:31:58,318 --> 00:32:00,718
Speaker 5: rid the game of gambling. That kind of saw Mountain

630
00:32:00,758 --> 00:32:03,438
Speaker 5: Landis and all of his successors that was one of

631
00:32:03,478 --> 00:32:06,358
Speaker 5: their chief responsibilities was being a guardian of the sport

632
00:32:06,398 --> 00:32:10,038
Speaker 5: and protecting it from the influence of gambling. I remember

633
00:32:10,118 --> 00:32:14,518
Speaker 5: when Fay Vincent was testifying before Congress in the early

634
00:32:14,598 --> 00:32:17,758
Speaker 5: nineties as they were considering this federal ban on bookmaking

635
00:32:17,798 --> 00:32:21,238
Speaker 5: outside of Nevada. He said, they asked him, you know,

636
00:32:21,238 --> 00:32:25,238
Speaker 5: would baseball ever do business with gambling companies? And he said,

637
00:32:25,878 --> 00:32:29,118
Speaker 5: that would make a mockery of my office and you know,

638
00:32:29,318 --> 00:32:33,598
Speaker 5: times have changed. I remember I interviewed I was lucky

639
00:32:33,678 --> 00:32:36,878
Speaker 5: enough to interview him and another commissioner who testified than

640
00:32:36,958 --> 00:32:41,278
Speaker 5: Paul Tagliabu. They both have since passed away, and fave

641
00:32:41,358 --> 00:32:44,198
Speaker 5: Vincent was just so upset by what he was seeing

642
00:32:44,798 --> 00:32:49,998
Speaker 5: with how gambling was taking over sports on so many levels.

643
00:32:50,198 --> 00:32:52,558
Speaker 5: And I got to say, when you talk about, you know,

644
00:32:52,638 --> 00:32:56,438
Speaker 5: protecting the game and the integrity of the game, the

645
00:32:56,598 --> 00:32:59,718
Speaker 5: argument that all the commissioners made that this would somehow

646
00:33:00,278 --> 00:33:03,638
Speaker 5: protect the integrity because they would be able to monitor

647
00:33:04,038 --> 00:33:07,598
Speaker 5: vicious betting and have you know, a window into betting

648
00:33:07,598 --> 00:33:09,518
Speaker 5: activity that they didn't when it was done.

649
00:33:09,318 --> 00:33:10,318
Speaker 6: Through the black market.

650
00:33:10,958 --> 00:33:12,878
Speaker 5: I get into this in detail in my book, but

651
00:33:12,918 --> 00:33:16,918
Speaker 5: it's it's so disingenuous. I think they knew better even

652
00:33:16,958 --> 00:33:20,478
Speaker 5: from the beginning that they were inviting a level of

653
00:33:20,518 --> 00:33:24,278
Speaker 5: corruption that never used to exist, and that it would

654
00:33:24,318 --> 00:33:27,918
Speaker 5: be borderline impossible to stop it. Even if you're monitoring

655
00:33:27,998 --> 00:33:32,638
Speaker 5: betting data, there's still a robust black market that sophisticated

656
00:33:32,678 --> 00:33:34,438
Speaker 5: fixers are going to go through, and you're going to

657
00:33:34,518 --> 00:33:37,038
Speaker 5: have as difficult a time spotting that as you ever did.

658
00:33:37,758 --> 00:33:40,958
Speaker 5: And also you've made it so easy to gamble on

659
00:33:41,078 --> 00:33:44,158
Speaker 5: so many different things. You know, forget the black socks

660
00:33:44,438 --> 00:33:46,718
Speaker 5: or Pete Rose betting on games. The idea that you

661
00:33:46,718 --> 00:33:49,238
Speaker 5: can make a lot of money betting on individual pitches

662
00:33:50,358 --> 00:33:54,438
Speaker 5: is just such a huge new threat for them to

663
00:33:54,478 --> 00:33:57,958
Speaker 5: have to deal with. And you know, lastly, you top

664
00:33:57,958 --> 00:34:00,318
Speaker 5: it off with all these athletes are seeing the same

665
00:34:00,318 --> 00:34:03,638
Speaker 5: ads we are, and as foolish as this is in

666
00:34:03,718 --> 00:34:05,838
Speaker 5: high inside, a lot of them when they're caught gambling,

667
00:34:05,958 --> 00:34:09,478
Speaker 5: say I didn't you know, I saw the league embracing it.

668
00:34:09,518 --> 00:34:11,358
Speaker 5: I saw all these ads. I didn't see what the

669
00:34:11,398 --> 00:34:13,918
Speaker 5: big deal was if I was betting on on my

670
00:34:13,998 --> 00:34:17,078
Speaker 5: off day, on you know, other games. So all of

671
00:34:17,078 --> 00:34:21,718
Speaker 5: that stuff, I I you know, disingenuous maybe is a

672
00:34:21,798 --> 00:34:25,038
Speaker 5: strong word coming from a reporter, but I think they

673
00:34:25,118 --> 00:34:27,718
Speaker 5: knew better. That's what my reporting seems to point to.

674
00:34:28,398 --> 00:34:30,398
Speaker 1: Yeah, Danny, let me ask you about the way that

675
00:34:30,398 --> 00:34:32,438
Speaker 1: they're able to bet in so many different ways. I

676
00:34:32,678 --> 00:34:34,838
Speaker 1: can see an athlete saying, well, I'm not throwing a

677
00:34:34,878 --> 00:34:37,438
Speaker 1: game here, if I'm just betting, in Baseball's case, say

678
00:34:37,518 --> 00:34:41,158
Speaker 1: on a singular pitch that doesn't necessarily affect the outcome

679
00:34:41,158 --> 00:34:44,038
Speaker 1: of the game. Easy to rationalize, easy to get your

680
00:34:44,038 --> 00:34:46,438
Speaker 1: friends and family involved. So even when you've got multimillion

681
00:34:46,478 --> 00:34:50,958
Speaker 1: dollar players under investigation for doing this, I understand that

682
00:34:50,958 --> 00:34:54,998
Speaker 1: that kind of pull, if you will, temptation. My question

683
00:34:55,198 --> 00:34:57,918
Speaker 1: is now that baseball seems to be putting a governor

684
00:34:58,278 --> 00:35:02,478
Speaker 1: a limit on those micro bets. Is that a real

685
00:35:02,598 --> 00:35:05,998
Speaker 1: fix or should well just get rid of micro bets?

686
00:35:06,558 --> 00:35:08,838
Speaker 5: I think it does make a difference, Like the idea

687
00:35:08,838 --> 00:35:11,718
Speaker 5: that you could win tens of thousands of dollars or

688
00:35:11,758 --> 00:35:14,598
Speaker 5: more than that on a single pitch, especially when you

689
00:35:14,638 --> 00:35:17,758
Speaker 5: stack these bets together in parlays that pay out exponentially more,

690
00:35:17,918 --> 00:35:20,798
Speaker 5: that seemed to be invited, you know, such a temptation,

691
00:35:20,998 --> 00:35:24,358
Speaker 5: inviting trouble. I think putting a cap on how much

692
00:35:24,358 --> 00:35:26,918
Speaker 5: you can bet on that will make a difference. I

693
00:35:26,918 --> 00:35:29,718
Speaker 5: could also see this is just hypothetical, but like if

694
00:35:29,758 --> 00:35:33,798
Speaker 5: there was ever you know, fixing isn't always intentionally failing.

695
00:35:34,438 --> 00:35:36,358
Speaker 5: It's you know, it's one thing if a Manuel Classe

696
00:35:36,478 --> 00:35:38,638
Speaker 5: says I'm going to spike a slider and bet on

697
00:35:38,678 --> 00:35:41,558
Speaker 5: me to throw a ball, but he could also you know,

698
00:35:41,598 --> 00:35:43,358
Speaker 5: you can bet on whether a pitch is going to

699
00:35:43,398 --> 00:35:45,998
Speaker 5: be off speed or not. He could just say you know, hey,

700
00:35:45,998 --> 00:35:49,118
Speaker 5: I'm going to throw a breaking ball to start, you know,

701
00:35:49,358 --> 00:35:51,558
Speaker 5: as the first pitch against this bat or bet on that.

702
00:35:51,758 --> 00:35:55,558
Speaker 5: It's not necessarily doing anything wrong in terms of how

703
00:35:55,558 --> 00:35:58,118
Speaker 5: you're trying to win the game, but you could give

704
00:35:58,158 --> 00:36:00,878
Speaker 5: someone an inside angle on that, and over time they

705
00:36:00,878 --> 00:36:03,918
Speaker 5: could make a lot of money. I think the question

706
00:36:04,158 --> 00:36:07,638
Speaker 5: of banning micro bets might be more of a going

707
00:36:07,678 --> 00:36:10,038
Speaker 5: back to public health. It might be more of a

708
00:36:10,118 --> 00:36:13,878
Speaker 5: something to do in the interest of fans rather than fixing,

709
00:36:13,918 --> 00:36:16,238
Speaker 5: because if you do put a cap on it, maybe

710
00:36:16,638 --> 00:36:20,158
Speaker 5: it won't be as tempting to gambling syndicates. It's a

711
00:36:20,198 --> 00:36:21,958
Speaker 5: lot harder to make money if you're what is it

712
00:36:22,038 --> 00:36:23,878
Speaker 5: five hundred bucks that you can bet on them now.

713
00:36:25,078 --> 00:36:28,318
Speaker 5: But again, if you were systematically fixing micro bets, that

714
00:36:28,358 --> 00:36:31,398
Speaker 5: could add up. I just think, you know, I heard

715
00:36:31,678 --> 00:36:35,078
Speaker 5: a psychologist at the University of New Mexico say to

716
00:36:35,158 --> 00:36:38,958
Speaker 5: him being able to bet pitch by pitch, He was like,

717
00:36:39,478 --> 00:36:43,518
Speaker 5: you know, we don't sell two hundred proof alcohol either, Like, yeah,

718
00:36:43,598 --> 00:36:46,198
Speaker 5: it might be fun to get hammered off one sip,

719
00:36:46,358 --> 00:36:50,678
Speaker 5: but that's not just whatever's most fun for people isn't

720
00:36:50,718 --> 00:36:55,198
Speaker 5: necessarily the best thing to be encouraging from a policy standpoint,

721
00:36:55,278 --> 00:36:58,038
Speaker 5: and in the same sense that we put some limits

722
00:36:58,078 --> 00:37:01,758
Speaker 5: on how quickly you can get inebriated, maybe we should

723
00:37:01,878 --> 00:37:04,598
Speaker 5: chill out with letting you bet on a second by

724
00:37:04,678 --> 00:37:08,678
Speaker 5: second basis. So yeah, and he's he had a grant

725
00:37:08,718 --> 00:37:11,558
Speaker 5: to study the mentalities of sports better. So I think

726
00:37:11,598 --> 00:37:14,318
Speaker 5: he's very insightful about just how people are thinking about this,

727
00:37:14,398 --> 00:37:18,358
Speaker 5: and I think I think that recommendation is pretty convincing.

728
00:37:18,958 --> 00:37:19,678
Speaker 4: Tommy. One worthing.

729
00:37:19,798 --> 00:37:21,878
Speaker 3: Do they still read the rule UH in the in

730
00:37:21,918 --> 00:37:24,438
Speaker 3: the clubhouse? Did the gambling grul every spring training? Is

731
00:37:24,478 --> 00:37:25,518
Speaker 3: that's still part of the fabric?

732
00:37:25,798 --> 00:37:26,998
Speaker 2: Yeah, Rule twenty one.

733
00:37:27,078 --> 00:37:30,958
Speaker 1: It's posted in every clubhouse in Spanish Japanese, and.

734
00:37:31,198 --> 00:37:33,558
Speaker 4: So contradictory that that they go ahead and do that.

735
00:37:33,678 --> 00:37:36,678
Speaker 3: And then, of course, like you're whether you turn on

736
00:37:36,718 --> 00:37:39,438
Speaker 3: a TV, you look at the outfield. Fantasy's in Saint Louis.

737
00:37:39,478 --> 00:37:41,038
Speaker 3: I'd look out to write center and there'd be the

738
00:37:41,118 --> 00:37:44,438
Speaker 3: Fantasy UH billboard out there, and then during the course

739
00:37:44,438 --> 00:37:47,838
Speaker 3: of the game, you see all these little percentage bets

740
00:37:47,838 --> 00:37:50,038
Speaker 3: coming up on the on the board. Who's going to succeed,

741
00:37:50,078 --> 00:37:54,118
Speaker 3: who's who's had a good day? And according to you

742
00:37:54,158 --> 00:37:57,558
Speaker 3: know that that version of the baseball game, the uh,

743
00:37:58,078 --> 00:38:00,678
Speaker 3: the analytical version of the game. And I I used

744
00:38:00,678 --> 00:38:03,678
Speaker 3: to bother me just from the dugout watching all that.

745
00:38:03,958 --> 00:38:06,278
Speaker 3: But I just I don't know, I just can't see

746
00:38:06,278 --> 00:38:09,238
Speaker 3: this ending well at some point, I mean turn to

747
00:38:09,358 --> 00:38:11,678
Speaker 3: we turned to kind of a blind eye to steroids

748
00:38:11,718 --> 00:38:15,758
Speaker 3: in the eight nineteen, eighties, nineties until they finally came

749
00:38:15,838 --> 00:38:18,838
Speaker 3: to a head at some point. Danny's right, I mean,

750
00:38:18,958 --> 00:38:23,038
Speaker 3: there's gonna be something severely bad that happens. It's going

751
00:38:23,118 --> 00:38:24,958
Speaker 3: to happen, and then you're gonna get all the knee

752
00:38:24,998 --> 00:38:27,958
Speaker 3: jerk reactions. So why didn't we do something in advance?

753
00:38:27,998 --> 00:38:30,638
Speaker 3: It was so obvious this would occur, And then you

754
00:38:30,718 --> 00:38:32,878
Speaker 3: get all these people rushing to the front. You're gonna

755
00:38:32,878 --> 00:38:36,078
Speaker 3: get all these articles written. Why wasn't something done sooner?

756
00:38:36,118 --> 00:38:38,838
Speaker 3: All this stuff's gonna happen, and so it's it's just

757
00:38:38,878 --> 00:38:41,278
Speaker 3: it's just a matter of time before some kind of

758
00:38:41,838 --> 00:38:44,318
Speaker 3: real I don't know if tragedy is gonna occur, but

759
00:38:45,398 --> 00:38:48,398
Speaker 3: something's gonna happen that's really gonna shed this negative light

760
00:38:48,478 --> 00:38:50,678
Speaker 3: on this to the point where it's really gonna have

761
00:38:50,678 --> 00:38:53,438
Speaker 3: to take a step back eventually. And I just love

762
00:38:53,518 --> 00:38:56,798
Speaker 3: when you have the ability to stay in advance of

763
00:38:56,798 --> 00:39:00,038
Speaker 3: a problem and solving, attempting to solve a problem before

764
00:39:00,078 --> 00:39:01,398
Speaker 3: it actually becomes crises.

765
00:39:01,638 --> 00:39:03,318
Speaker 4: And I think that's what's going to happen here.

766
00:39:04,038 --> 00:39:04,998
Speaker 6: The two of you. Something.

767
00:39:05,838 --> 00:39:09,638
Speaker 5: I heard some rumblings that the push for you know,

768
00:39:09,718 --> 00:39:14,078
Speaker 5: automatic automated ball and strike calling and other technology you know,

769
00:39:14,158 --> 00:39:18,558
Speaker 5: to replace umpires was done in part to remove the

770
00:39:18,678 --> 00:39:21,078
Speaker 5: risk that they would be fixing games.

771
00:39:22,158 --> 00:39:23,918
Speaker 6: Have you heard anything along those lines.

772
00:39:24,478 --> 00:39:27,038
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there is some truth to that.

773
00:39:27,158 --> 00:39:29,798
Speaker 1: I think it was mostly driven by technology that just

774
00:39:29,838 --> 00:39:32,718
Speaker 1: the technology was advancing so fast you just couldn't turn

775
00:39:32,718 --> 00:39:35,878
Speaker 1: a blind eye to it. But yes, trying to control

776
00:39:36,158 --> 00:39:38,518
Speaker 1: as much as you can control those things for betting

777
00:39:38,518 --> 00:39:41,038
Speaker 1: purposes is I think it's an underlying I don't think

778
00:39:41,078 --> 00:39:42,958
Speaker 1: it's a motivator, but I think it's an underlying part

779
00:39:42,958 --> 00:39:45,318
Speaker 1: of it.

780
00:39:45,118 --> 00:39:47,198
Speaker 2: It's things have moved so fast.

781
00:39:47,278 --> 00:39:50,238
Speaker 1: And Danny, just to follow up on what Joe said,

782
00:39:50,558 --> 00:39:52,958
Speaker 1: we'll end this here on I don't know whether this

783
00:39:53,038 --> 00:39:57,118
Speaker 1: is optimistic or not, but where we are going right

784
00:39:57,278 --> 00:40:00,118
Speaker 1: because we've talked about this and the increase and especially

785
00:40:00,118 --> 00:40:03,318
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, it's in the hands of the very young.

786
00:40:03,598 --> 00:40:08,518
Speaker 1: So generation now is growing up without obstacles between them

787
00:40:08,598 --> 00:40:09,238
Speaker 1: and gambling.

788
00:40:09,238 --> 00:40:12,958
Speaker 2: In fact, it's encouraged. There are no obstacles.

789
00:40:13,678 --> 00:40:16,398
Speaker 1: So I mean, you're sort of like, if I can

790
00:40:16,438 --> 00:40:19,238
Speaker 1: stretch the analogy a little far, you know what Jeffrey

791
00:40:19,278 --> 00:40:22,638
Speaker 1: Wygan was the cigarettes to say, hey, people, the emperor

792
00:40:22,718 --> 00:40:26,958
Speaker 1: has no clothes here. But then I see these predictive markets,

793
00:40:26,998 --> 00:40:29,798
Speaker 1: the calcies of the world, and I see how it's expanding,

794
00:40:29,798 --> 00:40:33,518
Speaker 1: and we're becoming, if not a world, a country of

795
00:40:33,638 --> 00:40:37,158
Speaker 1: people who want to gamble on anything and everything, so

796
00:40:37,238 --> 00:40:40,118
Speaker 1: that you know, whether Chris Collinsworth says a certain word

797
00:40:40,238 --> 00:40:42,998
Speaker 1: during the Super Bowl broadcast, you can bet on that,

798
00:40:43,478 --> 00:40:46,318
Speaker 1: and that brings announcers and media into the world of

799
00:40:46,398 --> 00:40:51,558
Speaker 1: people who might be influenced. So I guess I'm struggling here, Danny.

800
00:40:51,878 --> 00:40:54,518
Speaker 1: I want you to give us a reason to be

801
00:40:54,638 --> 00:40:59,318
Speaker 1: optimistic that you know, we're not putting the toothpaste back

802
00:40:59,358 --> 00:40:59,558
Speaker 1: in it.

803
00:40:59,638 --> 00:41:00,278
Speaker 2: I get it.

804
00:41:00,718 --> 00:41:03,798
Speaker 1: But do we have hope that we can get control

805
00:41:04,638 --> 00:41:05,998
Speaker 1: that we don't have now.

806
00:41:06,038 --> 00:41:07,838
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a lot on the table that could make

807
00:41:08,318 --> 00:41:11,758
Speaker 5: customers more protected and remove a little bit of the

808
00:41:11,758 --> 00:41:14,318
Speaker 5: thread of the corruption of sports. All that there's so

809
00:41:14,398 --> 00:41:18,878
Speaker 5: much room in between just legalizing with no guardrails and prohibition.

810
00:41:19,518 --> 00:41:22,398
Speaker 5: You're seeing some momentum toward that, you know, after these

811
00:41:22,398 --> 00:41:26,038
Speaker 5: guardians Pitchers were arrested, the governor of Ohio said the

812
00:41:26,078 --> 00:41:30,398
Speaker 5: prop betting experiment has failed. He wants props banned. He

813
00:41:30,438 --> 00:41:33,318
Speaker 5: also said more recently that legalizing sports betting was his

814
00:41:33,398 --> 00:41:37,238
Speaker 5: biggest mistake in office. So you're hearing more politicians talk

815
00:41:37,318 --> 00:41:40,478
Speaker 5: that way. I don't think this will make you feel optimistic.

816
00:41:40,598 --> 00:41:44,038
Speaker 5: But as far as what could move the needle enough

817
00:41:44,078 --> 00:41:48,038
Speaker 5: to actually motivate big change on a national level, I

818
00:41:48,078 --> 00:41:52,078
Speaker 5: don't think it'll be a gradual awareness that things are

819
00:41:52,078 --> 00:41:56,078
Speaker 5: getting out of hand. I think someone proposed three outcomes

820
00:41:56,118 --> 00:41:57,958
Speaker 5: that could I think it'll take a shock to our

821
00:41:58,038 --> 00:42:02,358
Speaker 5: systems to say this is overboard. You know, this is

822
00:42:02,758 --> 00:42:05,998
Speaker 5: out of control. So I heard three theories of what

823
00:42:06,078 --> 00:42:09,998
Speaker 5: could do that. One was a major max match fixing scandal,

824
00:42:10,118 --> 00:42:13,598
Speaker 5: you know, not on balls and strikes, but something really bad,

825
00:42:14,158 --> 00:42:17,718
Speaker 5: high profile game or star athlete caught fixing that would

826
00:42:17,798 --> 00:42:21,038
Speaker 5: upset so many people of you know, this is tainting

827
00:42:21,078 --> 00:42:26,038
Speaker 5: sports beyond the payout. The other was a rash of

828
00:42:26,078 --> 00:42:30,558
Speaker 5: suicides among people with gambling addictions, which has happened in Europe,

829
00:42:30,798 --> 00:42:33,758
Speaker 5: especially in the UK, and when that happens, people are

830
00:42:33,798 --> 00:42:37,678
Speaker 5: just so disturbed they say enough is enough sometimes. And

831
00:42:37,718 --> 00:42:40,478
Speaker 5: the third is we touched on this briefly, but there's

832
00:42:40,558 --> 00:42:44,958
Speaker 5: so much harassment of athletes. Now you've got the manager

833
00:42:44,998 --> 00:42:47,438
Speaker 5: of the padres resigning in part, he said because he

834
00:42:47,518 --> 00:42:50,358
Speaker 5: was fed up with getting so many death threats from gamblers.

835
00:42:51,038 --> 00:42:54,318
Speaker 5: That it's not just threats. There are people getting stocked

836
00:42:54,358 --> 00:42:58,558
Speaker 5: at their houses and their team hotels and people texting them, hey,

837
00:42:58,598 --> 00:43:00,638
Speaker 5: I know you know who your kids are and where

838
00:43:00,678 --> 00:43:04,478
Speaker 5: you live. All that seems to be pointing toward a

839
00:43:04,878 --> 00:43:07,998
Speaker 5: deranged gambler trying to kill someone. And if that were

840
00:43:08,038 --> 00:43:11,038
Speaker 5: to happen, I think people, you know, lawmakers on down,

841
00:43:11,038 --> 00:43:13,238
Speaker 5: would say, we're going to put a stop to this.

842
00:43:13,238 --> 00:43:16,358
Speaker 5: This is outrageous. So I don't know that that's a

843
00:43:16,358 --> 00:43:18,918
Speaker 5: happy note to end on, but I do think those

844
00:43:18,998 --> 00:43:23,518
Speaker 5: things seem in play, and like that would make people say,

845
00:43:23,598 --> 00:43:27,118
Speaker 5: you know, this is out of control, because I unfortunately

846
00:43:27,198 --> 00:43:30,558
Speaker 5: I don't think just wow, people are losing so much money,

847
00:43:30,638 --> 00:43:34,798
Speaker 5: or while addiction rates are inching up, I think this

848
00:43:34,878 --> 00:43:37,198
Speaker 5: is too much of a juggernaut for those sorts of

849
00:43:37,198 --> 00:43:39,238
Speaker 5: things to put a stop to it.

850
00:43:39,518 --> 00:43:40,278
Speaker 4: One hundred percent.

851
00:43:40,318 --> 00:43:43,238
Speaker 3: I mean you talked to a corruption failed performance equally

852
00:43:44,638 --> 00:43:48,038
Speaker 3: that leads the threats. And why wait, already you're talking

853
00:43:48,078 --> 00:43:51,998
Speaker 3: about Mike Schilt. I mean, obviously it's already occurred, and

854
00:43:52,038 --> 00:43:54,038
Speaker 3: that's just one guy, and I know they have to

855
00:43:54,038 --> 00:43:59,158
Speaker 3: be aware of other potential threats are actual threats.

856
00:43:59,598 --> 00:44:01,238
Speaker 4: And the my.

857
00:44:01,238 --> 00:44:04,718
Speaker 3: God, the really awful feeling of even in the ballpark,

858
00:44:04,718 --> 00:44:07,238
Speaker 3: getting your car driving home, tail lights following you all

859
00:44:07,238 --> 00:44:10,278
Speaker 3: the way back, and so many different ways that communicate

860
00:44:10,318 --> 00:44:14,038
Speaker 3: with me just by getting my information somehow just all wrong.

861
00:44:14,238 --> 00:44:15,998
Speaker 4: It's just all wrong in every kind of level.

862
00:44:15,998 --> 00:44:18,438
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't even know what the follow up

863
00:44:18,518 --> 00:44:20,678
Speaker 3: looks like to those kind of moments right now. We've

864
00:44:20,718 --> 00:44:23,398
Speaker 3: always were told if we had anything like that, that

865
00:44:23,438 --> 00:44:26,318
Speaker 3: would be a clubhouse meeting in spring training to make

866
00:44:26,358 --> 00:44:28,998
Speaker 3: sure that the appropriate people knew that we receive threats

867
00:44:29,038 --> 00:44:31,078
Speaker 3: or were being followed or whatever. And then it comes

868
00:44:31,118 --> 00:44:32,838
Speaker 3: down like you're saying, your wife, your kids, et cetera.

869
00:44:32,918 --> 00:44:34,518
Speaker 3: So it's not like it's we're waiting for it to happen.

870
00:44:34,558 --> 00:44:37,118
Speaker 3: It's already happened. So I again, it's just you're you're

871
00:44:37,118 --> 00:44:41,238
Speaker 3: waiting for this really awful moment to occur, to actually.

872
00:44:42,398 --> 00:44:45,158
Speaker 4: Try to fix it. In a sense, it's don't.

873
00:44:45,278 --> 00:44:48,598
Speaker 3: I just don't understand the perceived good outcome of all this.

874
00:44:48,678 --> 00:44:50,238
Speaker 3: I don't see the good outcome of all of this.

875
00:44:50,278 --> 00:44:50,558
Speaker 4: I don't.

876
00:44:50,598 --> 00:44:53,478
Speaker 3: I don't understand it other than people making money and

877
00:44:53,518 --> 00:44:56,918
Speaker 3: the false positive of the game becoming more attractive because

878
00:44:56,958 --> 00:44:58,478
Speaker 3: you have more people following it, right, And I think

879
00:44:58,478 --> 00:44:59,518
Speaker 3: that's a false positive.

880
00:45:00,198 --> 00:45:02,318
Speaker 2: His name is Danny Funt. He's been our guests.

881
00:45:02,478 --> 00:45:05,798
Speaker 1: His new book is Everybody What He Loses, The Tumultuous

882
00:45:05,878 --> 00:45:10,278
Speaker 1: Rise of American Sports Gambling, and it includes a blurb

883
00:45:10,438 --> 00:45:12,238
Speaker 1: of endorsement from Joe Madden.

884
00:45:12,478 --> 00:45:15,198
Speaker 2: That's good enough for me, jeez, So go out and

885
00:45:15,238 --> 00:45:15,598
Speaker 2: read it.

886
00:45:15,598 --> 00:45:19,558
Speaker 1: It's an important book and very well researched and reported.

887
00:45:19,638 --> 00:45:22,438
Speaker 2: Danny, great job. It's been fascinating to have you here.

888
00:45:22,478 --> 00:45:25,398
Speaker 1: We could talk all day about this, and thanks again

889
00:45:25,478 --> 00:45:28,878
Speaker 1: for your contribution to a very important topic in really

890
00:45:28,918 --> 00:45:29,558
Speaker 1: public health.

891
00:45:30,038 --> 00:45:32,358
Speaker 6: Hey, thanks so much, much respect to both of you.

892
00:45:32,478 --> 00:45:35,838
Speaker 2: Appreciate it, Danny, Thanks Danny. Great stuff from Danny.

893
00:45:35,878 --> 00:45:38,878
Speaker 1: We appreciate his time, and we'll take a quick break

894
00:45:38,918 --> 00:45:40,638
Speaker 1: here on the Book of Joe and be back to

895
00:45:40,718 --> 00:45:42,358
Speaker 1: wrap things up right after this.

896
00:45:54,998 --> 00:45:57,038
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Book of Joe. Man, Joe.

897
00:45:57,238 --> 00:45:57,518
Speaker 4: Listen.

898
00:45:57,598 --> 00:46:01,638
Speaker 1: It's an important topic. We both feel very passionate about this, man.

899
00:46:02,158 --> 00:46:05,398
Speaker 1: I could talk to Danny all day about this. There's

900
00:46:05,518 --> 00:46:07,958
Speaker 1: so many layers to it. What stood out for you.

901
00:46:08,318 --> 00:46:12,078
Speaker 3: Yeah, again, how well he presents it, That's what state

902
00:46:12,318 --> 00:46:12,998
Speaker 3: stood out to me.

903
00:46:13,038 --> 00:46:16,958
Speaker 4: I mean, the research is so precise, he's got.

904
00:46:16,798 --> 00:46:20,158
Speaker 3: A great way of explaining all of this, the people

905
00:46:20,158 --> 00:46:23,998
Speaker 3: that he've spoken with, and again, just the web is

906
00:46:24,078 --> 00:46:27,718
Speaker 3: so tangled, man, it is so tangled, and it's to

907
00:46:27,798 --> 00:46:33,158
Speaker 3: me to be somebody that could do something about this

908
00:46:33,358 --> 00:46:36,278
Speaker 3: and not eventually that's going to come back and invite

909
00:46:36,358 --> 00:46:39,318
Speaker 3: a lot of folks, although it might be so big

910
00:46:39,518 --> 00:46:41,918
Speaker 3: that it can be glossed over somehow, which is really

911
00:46:41,958 --> 00:46:46,518
Speaker 3: unfortunate too. But he's truly passionate about it, Danny is.

912
00:46:47,198 --> 00:46:50,838
Speaker 3: His research and his intellect are outstanding. And like you

913
00:46:50,918 --> 00:46:53,358
Speaker 3: just mentioned, we talked about it briefly. We could talk

914
00:46:53,358 --> 00:46:56,478
Speaker 3: to her for another hour easily about just keep diving

915
00:46:56,478 --> 00:46:59,438
Speaker 3: into this a little bit more, just unpeel the onion

916
00:46:59,478 --> 00:47:01,158
Speaker 3: a little bit more, and you're going to find even

917
00:47:01,158 --> 00:47:03,758
Speaker 3: more interesting detail to be spoken about it.

918
00:47:04,078 --> 00:47:04,398
Speaker 4: Stuff.

919
00:47:05,158 --> 00:47:08,278
Speaker 3: It is fascinating, it's interesting, and I really wish that

920
00:47:08,358 --> 00:47:11,438
Speaker 3: it would not be part of the baseball discussion where

921
00:47:11,918 --> 00:47:17,318
Speaker 3: tech continually takes over everything and now it's our game.

922
00:47:18,278 --> 00:47:21,678
Speaker 3: And as tech becomes more involved, the passions leaving the

923
00:47:21,718 --> 00:47:25,438
Speaker 3: field and it's now going to be incorporated off the

924
00:47:25,478 --> 00:47:26,278
Speaker 3: field for those that.

925
00:47:26,318 --> 00:47:26,918
Speaker 4: Do not win.

926
00:47:27,438 --> 00:47:29,718
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean a couple of scary parts we touched

927
00:47:29,758 --> 00:47:33,518
Speaker 1: on here was the anger that's involved now. The buy

928
00:47:33,558 --> 00:47:36,398
Speaker 1: in now is financial and when you're on the losing side,

929
00:47:36,478 --> 00:47:39,838
Speaker 1: most people are losing, right the house does win creates

930
00:47:39,958 --> 00:47:42,358
Speaker 1: just this ill will And as you mentioned, Joe, he

931
00:47:42,438 --> 00:47:46,638
Speaker 1: put this so well. You know, people are not emotionally

932
00:47:46,678 --> 00:47:50,718
Speaker 1: attached to the game itself. Is it's attaching to the

933
00:47:50,758 --> 00:47:55,918
Speaker 1: financial ramifications of you know, these especially the prop bets.

934
00:47:55,918 --> 00:47:57,918
Speaker 1: To me, I don't even know why they exist. Even

935
00:47:57,958 --> 00:47:59,518
Speaker 1: if there's a governor on them. They should just get

936
00:47:59,598 --> 00:48:02,998
Speaker 1: rid of these micro bets. Agree, there just have to

937
00:48:02,998 --> 00:48:06,158
Speaker 1: be more controls. I get it, it is a revenue source.

938
00:48:06,238 --> 00:48:08,478
Speaker 1: I don't I think it's polyannis Joe to think that

939
00:48:08,518 --> 00:48:12,158
Speaker 1: baseball can't be involved with legal gambling. You know, it's

940
00:48:12,358 --> 00:48:16,438
Speaker 1: just too big, it's too ubiquitous at this point. But

941
00:48:16,478 --> 00:48:19,398
Speaker 1: there do there has to be a rethinking here of

942
00:48:19,918 --> 00:48:21,838
Speaker 1: you know, how deep do we want to go down?

943
00:48:21,838 --> 00:48:22,558
Speaker 2: This rabbit hole?

944
00:48:23,318 --> 00:48:26,638
Speaker 3: Can't get any deeper yet, Maybe you know I never

945
00:48:26,718 --> 00:48:30,518
Speaker 3: I never, I always would refrain from using the phrase

946
00:48:30,558 --> 00:48:33,278
Speaker 3: it can't get any worse, But somebody on my staff,

947
00:48:33,438 --> 00:48:35,358
Speaker 3: somebody on my staff said that after like a six

948
00:48:35,438 --> 00:48:37,998
Speaker 3: game losing streak, I say, be quiet, because you're going

949
00:48:38,078 --> 00:48:40,798
Speaker 3: to find out that it can. So I really refrain

950
00:48:40,878 --> 00:48:43,638
Speaker 3: from using that phrase with anything in my life that

951
00:48:43,718 --> 00:48:45,318
Speaker 3: it can't get any worse, because you know what.

952
00:48:45,358 --> 00:48:45,678
Speaker 4: It can.

953
00:48:46,238 --> 00:48:48,758
Speaker 1: This brings us to the end of this episode of

954
00:48:48,798 --> 00:48:51,798
Speaker 1: the Book of Joe. So what do you have in

955
00:48:51,838 --> 00:48:54,718
Speaker 1: mind after this very interesting conversation.

956
00:48:54,278 --> 00:48:54,878
Speaker 4: Joe about it?

957
00:48:54,958 --> 00:48:57,318
Speaker 2: How to end this talk about sports gambling?

958
00:48:57,598 --> 00:48:57,758
Speaker 4: Yeah?

959
00:48:57,758 --> 00:49:00,918
Speaker 3: I just was looking up weirdly different quotes on gambling, right,

960
00:49:01,118 --> 00:49:03,438
Speaker 3: and there's so many different things out there. My god,

961
00:49:03,518 --> 00:49:09,638
Speaker 3: it's it's incredible. And you know, bertrand Russell to Oscar

962
00:49:09,798 --> 00:49:14,878
Speaker 3: Wild to Barack Obama, there's all kinds of different things.

963
00:49:14,878 --> 00:49:17,758
Speaker 3: But I chose Oscar Wild. He's always he kind of

964
00:49:17,798 --> 00:49:19,798
Speaker 3: always came through he was an Irish writer and a

965
00:49:19,838 --> 00:49:23,598
Speaker 3: poet and actually eighteen fifty Ford to nineteen hundred, so

966
00:49:24,318 --> 00:49:26,638
Speaker 3: died a young man, but nevertheless said a lot of

967
00:49:26,678 --> 00:49:30,918
Speaker 3: really interesting things. And this, really, I guess this is

968
00:49:30,958 --> 00:49:32,718
Speaker 3: we're talking about earned money, right, people.

969
00:49:32,758 --> 00:49:36,078
Speaker 4: You earn your money, you work hard, or most.

970
00:49:35,838 --> 00:49:39,918
Speaker 3: Everybody does, and then you're gonna just serendipitously lose it

971
00:49:39,958 --> 00:49:44,598
Speaker 3: and become addicted to this potential to make or earn

972
00:49:44,638 --> 00:49:47,158
Speaker 3: a lot of money where you really know, you should

973
00:49:47,198 --> 00:49:48,638
Speaker 3: know that you're going to actually lose all of it.

974
00:49:48,678 --> 00:49:50,758
Speaker 4: And then more one guy talks.

975
00:49:50,558 --> 00:49:55,558
Speaker 3: About, yeah, the gambling brought our family closer together because

976
00:49:55,598 --> 00:49:57,358
Speaker 3: I had to buy a smaller house. That was just

977
00:49:57,438 --> 00:50:00,118
Speaker 3: one thing that I read. But this is from Oscar Wild.

978
00:50:00,118 --> 00:50:03,318
Speaker 3: It's better to have a permanent income than to be fascinating.

979
00:50:03,398 --> 00:50:05,238
Speaker 3: I mean, we talk talk about like your gambling, like

980
00:50:05,478 --> 00:50:08,638
Speaker 3: I referenced the romantic part of it, bell hops, guys

981
00:50:08,678 --> 00:50:11,238
Speaker 3: going in the back room, sitting at the bar, and

982
00:50:11,678 --> 00:50:16,318
Speaker 3: everybody's talking about Celtics, Knicks, Yankees, Mets, Orioles, Phillies whatever.

983
00:50:16,958 --> 00:50:20,598
Speaker 3: And I have to admit most of the guys that

984
00:50:20,598 --> 00:50:24,478
Speaker 3: were really into the gamble were rather funny entertaining, always

985
00:50:24,518 --> 00:50:27,638
Speaker 3: buying you a drink. Patchy, one of my buddies on

986
00:50:27,678 --> 00:50:30,558
Speaker 3: my offensive line that with the hazel and high school Mountaineers.

987
00:50:30,958 --> 00:50:32,478
Speaker 4: Not in high school, but right afterwards.

988
00:50:32,518 --> 00:50:36,878
Speaker 3: Frankie, Frankie will love love going to Pocono Down's funny guys.

989
00:50:37,038 --> 00:50:38,198
Speaker 4: Mind did they make me laugh?

990
00:50:38,638 --> 00:50:40,798
Speaker 3: So it's better to have a permanent income than to

991
00:50:40,838 --> 00:50:43,598
Speaker 3: be fascinating or humorous, because a lot of these guys

992
00:50:43,638 --> 00:50:46,798
Speaker 3: can be. And so anyway, I just it's a bad

993
00:50:46,838 --> 00:50:49,078
Speaker 3: way to go. Man. You work too hard, you have

994
00:50:49,118 --> 00:50:51,518
Speaker 3: a family. Let it go, man, just keep doing the

995
00:50:51,598 --> 00:50:52,118
Speaker 3: right things.

996
00:50:52,518 --> 00:50:55,718
Speaker 1: Yeah, great stuff. Joe is really good conversation. And thanks

997
00:50:55,718 --> 00:50:57,558
Speaker 1: to Danny and we'll see you next time.

998
00:50:57,678 --> 00:50:58,558
Speaker 2: On the Book of Joe.

999
00:50:58,678 --> 00:51:01,638
Speaker 3: Thanks Tommy, see it.

1000
00:51:07,918 --> 00:51:11,158
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1001
00:51:11,358 --> 00:51:16,358
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1002
00:51:16,478 --> 00:51:18,238
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.